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Questions about I-278 in New York

Started by KEVIN_224, June 19, 2013, 01:46:20 PM

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KEVIN_224

On Tuesday, June 18, 2013, me, my brother and a friend from ESPN Land (who was driving) went down to Lakewood, NJ for the South Atlantic All-Star Game (A-level teams). The weather was a huge pain.  :banghead:

Anyways...due to a truck spilling its load of bricks or whatever all over the span of the George Washington Bridge (upper deck?) and construction, the outbound bridge was essentially closed. We ended up taking Exit 6B for I-278 West. He ended up going almost the whole length of I-278, over the Goethals Bridge to I-95/New Jersey Turnpike. Can somebody explain why this "X78" highway doesn't connect to I-78?  :hmmm:

I've been on the Bronx section of I-278 a ton of times, basically the Bruckner Expressway from its end at I-95 to the RFK Bridge. However, this was my first time on I-278 south and west of the RFK...ever.  :-o

Saw this entry sign somewhere in (I want to say) Queens.


Likely in Brooklyn, since I was already over the Kosciuszko Bridge.


Amazingly, this is the first time I was anywhere close to the Brooklyn Bridge.


Approaching the Verrezano Narrows Bridge.


Nice rusting on the gantry. Damn marine environment!  :no:


:wow: Can somebody find the money to replace that sign? It's gotta be 40 years old!


And now we reached the Goethals Bridge, crossing into New Jersey. It was the first time I've entered the Garden State from New York City somewhere other than the Lincoln Tunnel or the GWB (I've never been in the Holland Tunnel).


NE2

Because plans change. As originally planned, I-278 would have begun at I-78 near NJ 24 and gone southeast to its current beginning at Elizabeth. I-78 would have crossed the Williamsburg Bridge and interchanged with I-278 at the east end. It also almost touched I-278 a third time, at the Bruckner Interchange (but when I-78 went there, I-278 east of I-895 was I-878).
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

KEVIN_224

Thanks for the info NE2. Remind me to never do the Staten Island Expressway again! Ha ha! :)

Alex

To add to what NE2 wrote, I-78 was intended to follow the Bushwick and Nassau Expressways east to the Clearview Expressway, which would have given it a second meeting with I-278 (the first being the intended west end in New Jersey). From one of my favorite maps:


Alps

Quote from: Alex on June 19, 2013, 04:03:44 PM
To add to what NE2 wrote, I-78 was intended to follow the Bushwick and Nassau Expressways east to the Clearview Expressway, which would have given it a second meeting with I-278 (the first being the intended west end in New Jersey). From one of my favorite maps:


That's a way different alignment than I knew of (basically along Bushwick Ave.) Also, where's that spur going to the north? Can't fit more traffic into the QMT.

NE2

pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

hubcity

I'm pretty sure the Nassau Expressway (at least the eastbound portion) was signed I-78 up into the early 90's; some signs may still have that shield beneath the NY-878 shield. There was also an ancient  black-on-white NYC expressway-style sign visible from that road back then.  It could be said that back then, while I-278 did not connect to I-78, it did navigate cleanly between its portions.

roadman65

What is the unsigned NYS reference number for the east leg of the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway at its northern end?
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

1995hoo

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on June 19, 2013, 01:46:20 PM
....

I've been on the Bronx section of I-278 a ton of times, basically the Bruckner Expressway from its end at I-95 to the RFK Bridge. However, this was my first time on I-278 south and west of the RFK...ever.  :-o

....

I think this is the first time I've ever actually heard anyone call the Triboro Bridge by that alternative name!
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

KEVIN_224

It is signed as such there now, sporadically though. I'm very specific when it comes to naming things.

Example: It will bug me if somebody calls CT Route 15 the Merritt Parkway outside of Fairfield County. Also, the Berlin Turnpike from Meriden to Wethersfield definitely is NOT a parkway! :P

NJRoadfan

#10
Quote from: NE2 on June 19, 2013, 02:02:01 PM
Because plans change. As originally planned, I-278 would have begun at I-78 near NJ 24 and gone southeast to its current beginning at Elizabeth. I-78 would have crossed the Williamsburg Bridge and interchanged with I-278 at the east end. It also almost touched I-278 a third time, at the Bruckner Interchange (but when I-78 went there, I-278 east of I-895 was I-878).

I-278 would have began at I-78's Exit 49. Take a look at the proposed interchange on this 1968 map of Millburn, NJ: http://mapmaker.rutgers.edu/ESSEX_COUNTY/Millburn.jpg

I-78 was built as depicted to accommodate that ramp. Whats interesting is that they added a loop ramp from NJ-124 east to I-78 west.

http://mapmaker.rutgers.edu/UNION_COUNTY/OldUnion.html

Check out the 1967 Union County Map sheets at the above link. It has detailed maps of the proposed I-278 alignment along with interchange details.

NE2

pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

empirestate

Quote from: NE2 on August 26, 2013, 05:46:10 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 26, 2013, 10:05:28 AM
What is the unsigned NYS reference number for the east leg of the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway at its northern end?
Seems to be 278 (not 278I):
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.757888,-73.899751&spn=0.024998,0.056691&gl=us&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=40.758074,-73.899698&panoid=-2pW4GxnFb7CpWN6mEsCeA&cbp=12,61.89,,1,13.79
https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.763235,-73.896425&spn=0.006282,0.014173&gl=us&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.763379,-73.896277&panoid=-rsdEKw7jmKBSaW5ZqNAoA&cbp=12,240.44,,2,2.21

There isn't a reference route number for that spur. Interesting that "278" appears on the markers, but 278 is already a NY touring route in Rensselaer County and so wouldn't be applied to this spur in all likelihood.

Duke87

Okay, that is very interesting. Note the middle row on the marker: X5M6

X means region 11
5 means fifth county Alphabetically within the region (or in this case, within regions 10 and 11), which Queens is.
M means mainline
6 means... the route has begun in or entered a county 6 times.

Now, on I-278 itself, this digit increments up to 5: 1 in Staten Island, 2 in Brooklyn, 3 in Queens, 4 in Manhattan, and 5 in The Bronx.
So, it would appear that that stretch of road is actually treated as a segment of mainline I-278 (the I is frequently omitted from reference markers in NYC, so its lack of presence on these means nothing), tacked onto the end. It's essentially as if, at the Bruckner Interchange, another county line was crossed and this segment of road directly followed. 

If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

empirestate

Quote from: Duke87 on August 26, 2013, 08:24:19 PM
Okay, that is very interesting. Note the middle row on the marker: X5M6

X means region 11
5 means fifth county Alphabetically within the region (or in this case, within regions 10 and 11), which Queens is.
M means mainline
6 means... the route has begun in or entered a county 6 times.

Now, on I-278 itself, this digit increments up to 5: 1 in Staten Island, 2 in Brooklyn, 3 in Queens, 4 in Manhattan, and 5 in The Bronx.
So, it would appear that that stretch of road is actually treated as a segment of mainline I-278 (the I is frequently omitted from reference markers in NYC, so its lack of presence on these means nothing), tacked onto the end. It's essentially as if, at the Bruckner Interchange, another county line was crossed and this segment of road directly followed. 

I'm glad you checked that; I had a hunch there would be something in the marker legend to account for the spur, but didn't take the time to look into it. Normally, this sort of situation would be handled by the control segment number (first digit of the bottom line), but these aren't used in NYC, so the county order number makes sense. (For example, where NY 17 dips into PA, the control segment increases as if Pennsylvania were a city in Tioga County–control segments typically increase at city lines.)

SignBridge

I can remember when the Clearview Expwy. in Queens was originally signed as I-78 in the 1960's. When a major New York area re-signing was done in the early 1970's it was changed to I-295, which I don't understand. As a spur-route it should have been an odd number like I-195. Even as the lifelong roadgeek that I am, I can't keep all these Interstate numbers straight in the New York Metroplex. As others stated above, maybe it would have appeared more logical if the original plans had been followed. Instead we have mass confusion. 

vdeane

Quote from: SignBridge on August 27, 2013, 09:46:30 PM
As a spur-route it should have been an odd number like I-195.
NYSDOT doesn't pay attention to the 3di numbering rules.  I didn't even know they existed until I discovered road websites - I thought the leading digit established the direction of the route, because that's how all the x90s except I-790 (which I had only seen on map inserts and is an L-shaped "diagonal") are "odd north-south, even east-west".
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

NE2

In 1970, when I-78 was cut back to I-278 (at the east end of the Williamsburg), it was replaced by I-878 (I-278 to Atlantic Beach Bridge) and I-295 (I-878 to Bruckner Interchange). So I-295 was planned to have both ends at an Interstate (but I-878 was not).

But then by 1971 all three routes were cut back to their current lengths.

http://www.greaternyroads.info/pdfs/state70.pdf
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

roadman65

Interesting to see the spur as the main number 278 and the actual route 278 as 278i.  Then again this is New York!
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

1995hoo

Quote from: SignBridge on August 27, 2013, 09:46:30 PM
I can remember when the Clearview Expwy. in Queens was originally signed as I-78 in the 1960's. When a major New York area re-signing was done in the early 1970's it was changed to I-295, which I don't understand. As a spur-route it should have been an odd number like I-195. Even as the lifelong roadgeek that I am, I can't keep all these Interstate numbers straight in the New York Metroplex. As others stated above, maybe it would have appeared more logical if the original plans had been followed. Instead we have mass confusion. 

I would regard the I-295 designation as less objectionable than the I-495 designation for the Long Island Expressway. I-295 may end as a spur, but it at least connects two Interstates (I-95 and I-495) and links to a third one that could legitimately be considered an unnecessary use of an Interstate number (I-695). I-495 is utterly a spur and the proposal to extend it across Long Island sound from Orient Point to Watch Hill doesn't seem like it ever got much traction.

I think I read somewhere, however, that at one point I-495 ended at what is now I-295 and that everything east of there had a state route number for many years. In that situation, I-495 would have made sense, and it's certainly fair to argue it wouldn't make sense to change a well-established number just because the road later became a spur route when the Interstate designation was extended.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

NE2

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2013, 04:24:41 PM
I think I read somewhere, however, that at one point I-495 ended at what is now I-295
Two posts up :bigass:
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

Interstatefan78

Been on the staten island section of I-278 many times and back in June 2013 they were demolishing the I-278/ Korean War Parkway interchange to make room for 3 gp lanes and 1 hov lane. Perhaps they should extend the HOV lanes from the Verrazano Bridge up to the NY-440 West Shore exit

SignBridge

Isn't that what they are doing? I'd been saying for the last 20 years they should add an additional lane in each direction on the S.I.E. With the existing wide median it would seem to be relatively simple to do, yet it's taking forever to get done. Again I point out the entire original New Jersey Turnpike was built in just two friggin' years!

With all this controversy over route numbers, maybe (chuckle!) we should adopt the German Autobahn style signing, where place names predominate and the route numbers are secondary, being shown only as small logos on the bottom line of the sign.

Alps

Quote from: NE2 on August 27, 2013, 10:51:25 PM

New to me: having I-478 on the unbuilt 25A freeway, and I-695 (!) on the West Side Highway. I-478 really bounced around the city!

1995hoo

Quote from: NE2 on August 28, 2013, 04:45:37 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 28, 2013, 04:24:41 PM
I think I read somewhere, however, that at one point I-495 ended at what is now I-295
Two posts up :bigass:

But that's a proposal. I mean I read somewhere it actually did end there.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.



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