Fatal crash in Schoharie, New York - 20 persons dead

Started by cpzilliacus, October 07, 2018, 06:00:54 PM

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kalvado

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2019, 04:56:51 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on May 26, 2019, 10:30:29 PM
And what caused the 'catastrophic brake failure'?

Mike

Now, now, let's not blame Mike... he probably had nothing to do with this.
One thing such statement achieve is that county where accident happened becomes totally not guilty.
Victims lawyers were shopping for compensation payers- state is legally immune as far as I understand; company has no assets worth suing, owner is a slick guy with FBI behind him, and getting him from Pakistan  is a challenge. So they aimed at county as a source of compensation....


jeffandnicole

Quote from: kalvado on May 27, 2019, 06:11:35 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2019, 04:56:51 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on May 26, 2019, 10:30:29 PM
And what caused the 'catastrophic brake failure'?

Mike

Now, now, let's not blame Mike... he probably had nothing to do with this.
One thing such statement achieve is that county where accident happened becomes totally not guilty.
Victims lawyers were shopping for compensation payers- state is legally immune as far as I understand; company has no assets worth suing, owner is a slick guy with FBI behind him, and getting him from Pakistan  is a challenge. So they aimed at county as a source of compensation....

So next would be...the auto manufacturer or the company that built the limo?

kalvado

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 27, 2019, 08:25:28 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 27, 2019, 06:11:35 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2019, 04:56:51 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on May 26, 2019, 10:30:29 PM
And what caused the 'catastrophic brake failure'?

Mike

Now, now, let's not blame Mike... he probably had nothing to do with this.
One thing such statement achieve is that county where accident happened becomes totally not guilty.
Victims lawyers were shopping for compensation payers- state is legally immune as far as I understand; company has no assets worth suing, owner is a slick guy with FBI behind him, and getting him from Pakistan  is a challenge. So they aimed at county as a source of compensation....

So next would be...the auto manufacturer or the company that built the limo?
Manufacturer will have a strong case that they didn't approve modification. Modification was done by a company which coldn't be located, likely non-existent.
If I  remember correctly, modification was done in 2001, and even statues of limitations may be in issue.

J N Winkler

Quote from: kalvado on May 27, 2019, 06:11:35 AMOne thing such statement achieve is that county where accident happened becomes totally not guilty.

Why would the county have tort liability?  As I understand it, the crash happened entirely on the state highway system.  (Does New York allow counties to claim qualified immunity?)

The statement about "catastrophic brake failure" also does not address lack of engine braking as a possible contributing factor, which we have inferred from previous reporting is a focus of the NTSB investigation.

Given that the State Police is an arm of the state government, as is NYSDOT, I am skeptical of the independence and impartiality of the investigation.  The general rule of thumb these days is that sovereign immunity does not exist anymore, although the manner in which a state can be sued for damages is still stringently restricted by statute (I do not know where specifically New York is in this particular facet of tort reform, which occurred in the 1970's in most states).
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

kalvado

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 27, 2019, 10:34:57 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 27, 2019, 06:11:35 AMOne thing such statement achieve is that county where accident happened becomes totally not guilty.

Why would the county have tort liability?  As I understand it, the crash happened entirely on the state highway system.  (Does New York allow counties to claim qualified immunity?)

The statement about "catastrophic brake failure" also does not address lack of engine braking as a possible contributing factor, which we have inferred from previous reporting is a focus of the NTSB investigation.

Given that the State Police is an arm of the state government, as is NYSDOT, I am skeptical of the independence and impartiality of the investigation.  The general rule of thumb these days is that sovereign immunity does not exist anymore, although the manner in which a state can be sued for damages is still stringently restricted by statute (I do not know where specifically New York is in this particular facet of tort reform, which occurred in the 1970's in most states).
I don't remember details, but the county was mentioned as a possible entity to be sued for sure.  The problem for lawyers is that there is no rich entity to milk in this case.
Lack of engine braking is the most obvious question. Navigation to a difficult road is another. Driver, who according to latest articles "had enough tickets to get license suspended; the suspension was not filed due to clerical error"  is another nice detail.
To make things worse, NTSB is effectively kicked out of the case - they still didn't get their hands on a wreck. I would expect many things are no longer traceable.

Rothman

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 27, 2019, 10:34:57 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 27, 2019, 06:11:35 AMOne thing such statement achieve is that county where accident happened becomes totally not guilty.

Why would the county have tort liability?  As I understand it, the crash happened entirely on the state highway system.  (Does New York allow counties to claim qualified immunity?)

The statement about "catastrophic brake failure" also does not address lack of engine braking as a possible contributing factor, which we have inferred from previous reporting is a focus of the NTSB investigation.

Given that the State Police is an arm of the state government, as is NYSDOT, I am skeptical of the independence and impartiality of the investigation.  The general rule of thumb these days is that sovereign immunity does not exist anymore, although the manner in which a state can be sued for damages is still stringently restricted by statute (I do not know where specifically New York is in this particular facet of tort reform, which occurred in the 1970's in most states).

Just so happens that my capstone project was on the issue of transportation issues and sovereign immunity; did the work for FHWA.

Although total sovereign immunity does not exist, NY is one of the stricter states in terms of defining when someone can sue in regards to transportation agency negligence or other misbehavior.  In this particular case, I really doubt that the investigation deliberately warped facts to protect the State from any sort of lawsuit.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

hbelkins

Not sure why the state would bear any fault whatsoever here. Everything I've seen indicates that the hill and the stop condition at the bottom of it are very clearly signed. Besides, intersections like that are a dime a dozen in this part of the country (eastern Kentucky, West Virginia, southwestern Virginia, western North Carolina, east Tennessee). The grade and curvature looks mild compared to a lot of intersections I'm familiar with.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

webny99

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2019, 04:56:51 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on May 26, 2019, 10:30:29 PM
And what caused the 'catastrophic brake failure'?
Mike
Now, now, let's not blame Mike... he probably had nothing to do with this.

Nicely done  :D

steviep24

Quote from: kalvado on May 26, 2019, 01:07:39 PM
Braking news (pun intended):
According to the expert hired by State Police, the sole cause of the accident [..] is "catastrophic brake failure"
I have a hard time interpreting that statement...
Rusted out brake lines are a common problem here in NY with vehicles that have some age on them. They can give out without warning. Perhaps that's what may have caused this limo crash.

J N Winkler

Quote from: steviep24 on May 31, 2019, 08:29:57 PMRusted out brake lines are a common problem here in NY with vehicles that have some age on them. They can give out without warning. Perhaps that's what may have caused this limo crash.

It may very well have done.  The problem with having "catastrophic brake failure" as the totality of the explanation is that the investigation really needs to look at why the limo was out of control as it was going down a clearly signed long downgrade.  If engine braking was available and had been used, then the limo would have been moving much more slowly at the bottom of the hill and the crash would likely have been much more survivable even if it could still not be avoided altogether.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

US71

https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Mavis-manager-Invoices-falsified-brake-work-not-14503357.php

A former manager of a Mavis Discount Tire outlet told investigators last month that the auto shop had falsified invoices and failed to perform critical brake work on the stretch limousine that crashed in New York last year, killing 20 people.
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

Rothman

My word.  I don't even know how to make sense of that insanity.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

cl94

Quote from: US71 on October 09, 2019, 02:37:32 PM
https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Mavis-manager-Invoices-falsified-brake-work-not-14503357.php

A former manager of a Mavis Discount Tire outlet told investigators last month that the auto shop had falsified invoices and failed to perform critical brake work on the stretch limousine that crashed in New York last year, killing 20 people.

And that would be why I don't let Mavis do anything to my car other than tires. I saw the story this morning and was not happy.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

Travel Mapping (updated weekly)

kalvado

Quote from: Rothman on October 09, 2019, 03:14:45 PM
My word.  I don't even know how to make sense of that insanity.
If you read the letter, it is less cut and dry. Mavis allegedly billed for certain services while actually performing some other work for that money. While a shady practice, I would expect it was agreed with limo owner. If not... 
Dates are also important; limo was quoted by state for safety issues AFTER Mavis service date. So while a big deal, this (even if everything is actually true and not FBI informant protection action) doesn't get operator off the hook.

J N Winkler

Quote from: cl94 on October 09, 2019, 03:27:58 PMAnd that would be why I don't let Mavis do anything to my car other than tires. I saw the story this morning and was not happy.

I am not sure I would let them do even that.  The contact patch is where it all happens . . .
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Rothman

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

empirestate

Quote from: cl94 on October 09, 2019, 03:27:58 PM
Quote from: US71 on October 09, 2019, 02:37:32 PM
https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Mavis-manager-Invoices-falsified-brake-work-not-14503357.php

A former manager of a Mavis Discount Tire outlet told investigators last month that the auto shop had falsified invoices and failed to perform critical brake work on the stretch limousine that crashed in New York last year, killing 20 people.

And that would be why I don't let Mavis do anything to my car other than tires. I saw the story this morning and was not happy.

Wait, you already knew that Mavis was doing this? Or do you mean you won't use them anymore after reading this?

US71

Quote from: Rothman on October 09, 2019, 04:00:25 PM
I wonder if Mavis will sue the guy.

Mavis should have his @ss sued, as should the limo company (oh wait! Didn't the limo owner move back to his homeland?)
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

kalvado

Quote from: US71 on October 10, 2019, 12:26:53 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 09, 2019, 04:00:25 PM
I wonder if Mavis will sue the guy.

Mavis should have his @ss sued, as should the limo company (oh wait! Didn't the limo owner move back to his homeland?)
Limo company owner moved after heart surgery, well before most of crash-related events, so he probably played little role in crash - and FBI should cover his back anyway. His son (who was running the business) is in hot water, though.

kalvado

And a bit of a follow-up:
after not allowing NTSB to investigate and 3 years of hard work, criminal part of investigation is concluded.
Nauman Hussain, operator of the company which owned the limo, pleaded guilty o criminally negligent homicide charges. He will be serving 5 years of probation, 1000 hours of community service and no real jail time.

Civil cases will follow.

https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Nauman-Hussain-pleads-guilty-faces-no-prison-16430370.php

US71

Quote from: kalvado on September 03, 2021, 12:37:26 PM
And a bit of a follow-up:
after not allowing NTSB to investigate and 3 years of hard work, criminal part of investigation is concluded.
Nauman Hussain, operator of the company which owned the limo, pleaded guilty o criminally negligent homicide charges. He will be serving 5 years of probation, 1000 hours of community service and no real jail time.

Civil cases will follow.

https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Nauman-Hussain-pleads-guilty-faces-no-prison-16430370.php

He deserves jail time.

Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

renegade

Quote from: US71 on September 03, 2021, 12:56:40 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 03, 2021, 12:37:26 PM
And a bit of a follow-up:
after not allowing NTSB to investigate and 3 years of hard work, criminal part of investigation is concluded.
Nauman Hussain, operator of the company which owned the limo, pleaded guilty o criminally negligent homicide charges. He will be serving 5 years of probation, 1000 hours of community service and no real jail time.

Civil cases will follow.

https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Nauman-Hussain-pleads-guilty-faces-no-prison-16430370.php

He deserves jail time.
Sadly, for 20 victims, he got none.  Justice was served.   :ded:
Don’t ask me how I know.  Just understand that I do.

US71

Quote from: renegade on September 03, 2021, 02:12:19 PM
Quote from: US71 on September 03, 2021, 12:56:40 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 03, 2021, 12:37:26 PM
And a bit of a follow-up:
after not allowing NTSB to investigate and 3 years of hard work, criminal part of investigation is concluded.
Nauman Hussain, operator of the company which owned the limo, pleaded guilty o criminally negligent homicide charges. He will be serving 5 years of probation, 1000 hours of community service and no real jail time.

Civil cases will follow.

https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Nauman-Hussain-pleads-guilty-faces-no-prison-16430370.php

He deserves jail time.
Sadly, for 20 victims, he got none.  Justice was served.   :ded:

No further comment, but yeah.
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

J N Winkler

#198
The NTSB's final report is here:

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAR2003.pdf

Aside from one sentence noting that guidance for commercial drivers mentions the possibility of shifting to a lower gear to traverse a downhill grade, and it not being possible to determine whether the driver did this (no explanation of why it isn't), I don't see any mention of the driver using compression braking.  However, notwithstanding the DA and the New York State Police obstructing their efforts, the NTSB investigators did conclude that the rear brakes were likely not working (one line had a crimp and might have been leaking; brake hardware was corroded; one piston was stuck in its bore), and the vehicle's speed at the bottom of the grade (well over 100 MPH) was consistent with there being no effective braking effort.  An attempt to model braking system performance with front brakes only showed that brake fluid temperature would have spiked to over 1000° F.

In my view, the use or otherwise of compression braking should have been discussed in more detail.  I am not a limousine driver and have no experience with diesel-fuelled vehicles, but even in an ordinary unmodified gasoline-powered car, I would not be attempting to control speed on this particular downhill grade through brakes alone.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

formulanone

On a semi-related note, since 2020, all NY State Vehicle Inspection computers ask the tech if a vehicle has been modified beyond the factory-specified passenger capacity.

Doubt it will do anything, but it's something.



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