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Cities adverse to 3dis

Started by Roadgeekteen, January 05, 2019, 09:12:48 PM

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webny99

I've always liked the Rochester- (or Pittsburgh-) type of situation where the 2dis stay well away from the urban core, which is instead served by 3dis. It makes sense for the 3dis to serve the local and commuter traffic, while long-distance traffic stays on a consistent route, thereby maintaining higher speeds and avoiding typical peak-hour congestion. It also keeps that traffic out of the city, instead of dumping it on urban freeways that are already at capacity.

Imagine, for example, if I-90 went right through downtown Rochester, how much more inconvenient it would be to get from Buffalo to Syracuse. The current setup is a win-win for both long-distance traffic and commuters. I-90 in Buffalo, on the other hand, is a lose-lose for both long distance traffic and commuters.


TheStranger

Quote from: webny99 on January 07, 2019, 10:52:16 AM
I've always liked the Rochester- (or Pittsburgh-) type of situation where the 2dis stay well away from the urban core, which is instead served by 3dis. It makes sense for the 3dis to serve the local and commuter traffic, while long-distance traffic stays on a consistent route, thereby maintaining higher speeds and avoiding typical peak-hour congestion. It also keeps that traffic out of the city, instead of dumping it on urban freeways that are already at capacity.

Imagine, for example, if I-90 went right through downtown Rochester, how much more inconvenient it would be to get from Buffalo to Syracuse. The current setup is a win-win for both long-distance traffic and commuters. I-90 in Buffalo, on the other hand, is a lose-lose for both long distance traffic and commuters.

I think it really depends too on geography more than anything else:

Rochester is not on the direct east-west trajectory between the Buffalo area and Albany, but a bit further north.  A similar but somewhat differently handled situation is I-10 in Louisiana, where I-610 is the direct route and I-10 dips into the New Orleans CBD - but one could also then argue that I-12 itself is the bypass east-west corridor and I-10 already is diverging to get into the New Orleans area in the first place.

In California, I-5 following former US 99 and US 101 in Los Angeles is the most as-the-crow-flies route through that metro area, even if that skirts downtown Los Angeles somewhat.  (I-405 is also not noticeably much of a bypass either).  I-15 through Ontario instead of Riverside/San Bernardino and I-80 in Natomas rather than downtown and midtown Sacramento are the two examples of the mainline interstate on a bypass in California, and both were not the originally planned designations.
Chris Sampang

bzakharin

The toll roads in NJ. The portions that do have Interstate designations are all 2dis. Atlantic City could use an interstate of some sort. Yes, I know the ACE would need to be upgraded to meet interstate specs.

ilpt4u

Quote from: bzakharin on January 07, 2019, 05:33:01 PM
The toll roads in NJ. The portions that do have Interstate designations are all 2dis. Atlantic City could use an interstate of some sort. Yes, I know the ACE would need to be upgraded to meet interstate specs.
Why a 3di for the ACE? Why not just continue I-76 to Atlantic City?

The NJTP should be an x95 south of Exit 6, but I could understand why not - having a 295/695 or 895 split at the Southern NJ border could be confusing

roadman65


Quote from: roadman65 on January 05, 2019, 10:07:20 PM
….

Lakeland, FL has the infamous Polk Parkway that is a loop that begins and ends at I-4 and is not a 3 digit.

The east side of that is—or at least was the last time I was through there—a two-lane road with a toll plaza in the middle of the two-lane section. That part of the road wasn't remotely close to legitimate Interstate standards.
[/quote]
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 05, 2019, 10:12:51 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 05, 2019, 10:07:20 PM
….

Lakeland, FL has the infamous Polk Parkway that is a loop that begins and ends at I-4 and is not a 3 digit.

The east side of that is—or at least was the last time I was through there—a two-lane road with a toll plaza in the middle of the two-lane section. That part of the road wasn't remotely close to legitimate Interstate standards.
It still is, but assuming that FDOT soon will upgrade that portion as with both Lakeland and Auburdale building warehouses galore near the road, it should be at least on the four lane divided part and proposed for the two lane part.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

texaskdog

Mopac (loop 1) with 360/290 on the south and 45 on the north should be an x35

roadman65

Quote from: webny99 on January 07, 2019, 10:52:16 AM
I've always liked the Rochester- (or Pittsburgh-) type of situation where the 2dis stay well away from the urban core, which is instead served by 3dis. It makes sense for the 3dis to serve the local and commuter traffic, while long-distance traffic stays on a consistent route, thereby maintaining higher speeds and avoiding typical peak-hour congestion. It also keeps that traffic out of the city, instead of dumping it on urban freeways that are already at capacity.

Imagine, for example, if I-90 went right through downtown Rochester, how much more inconvenient it would be to get from Buffalo to Syracuse. The current setup is a win-win for both long-distance traffic and commuters. I-90 in Buffalo, on the other hand, is a lose-lose for both long distance traffic and commuters.
Keep in mind originally I-79 was to go through Pittsburgh and I-76 for a bit used I-376 when I-80S had a revision to just be the eastern end of the Ohio Turnpike and the western end of the PA Turnpike.  I-279 was to be where I-79 is now.

Even Cleveland, OH had early plans for I-80 to leave the OH Turnpike and use what is today I-480.

As far as Rochester goes its because the Thruway was built outside most cities it served.  The Thruway precedes the interstate system with I-90 getting lucky from the PA/ NY Line and its eastern terminus (its original one pre Ted Williams Tunnel) where it was applied to existing toll facilities minus the free I-90 in Albany of course.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

PHLBOS

Quote from: bzakharin on January 07, 2019, 05:33:01 PMThe toll roads in NJ. The portions that do have Interstate designations are all 2dis. Atlantic City could use an interstate of some sort. Yes, I know the ACE would need to be upgraded to meet interstate specs.
While many have mentioned designating the ACE as an extension of I-76; you're probably one of the first to suggest a 3di for such.

Quote from: ilpt4u on January 07, 2019, 10:26:23 PMThe NJTP should be an x95 south of Exit 6, but I could understand why not - having a 295/695 or 895 split at the Southern NJ border could be confusing.
How is such any different/confusing than the I-95/295/495 spilt in Wilmington, DE?
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Road Hog

Quote from: texaskdog on January 07, 2019, 11:44:29 PM
Mopac (loop 1) with 360/290 on the south and 45 on the north should be an x35
Austin isn't as much averse to 3di's as TxDOT is averse to building one for them. Hence all the toll roads.

michravera

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 05, 2019, 09:12:48 PM
I noticed that Phoenix never gives freeways 3 digit interstate numbers. What other cities are like that?

Sacramento has only one that is unsigned (I-305) and got rid of the former I-880. Stockton, Merced, Madera, Fresno, Visalia, and Bakersfield all have no 3dis at all. Modesto sort of has a 3di, but no 2di. Merced, Fresno, Madera, Visalia, and Bakersfield's 2di are all on the far west side of the county from where the cities are located.

Santa Cruz, Monterey, Salinas, San Luis Obispo, Santa Maria, and Santa Barbara, and (San Buena)Ventura have no 2dis anywhere in their respective counties, much less 3dis.

San Jose is served ONLY by 3dis.

Bickendan

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 06, 2019, 04:18:11 PM
Quote from: US 89 on January 06, 2019, 03:55:07 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 06, 2019, 01:15:52 PM
The only other freeway that comes to mind in the state is US 70 east of I-25 in Las Cruces.  The is an at-grade interchange and I would highly doubt any part of the freeway meets Interstate standards.

There's also the US 84/285 freeway in Santa Fe, but it's an at-grade expressway between the freeway section and the I-25 interchange, and I'd bet it isn't interstate standard anyway. Took me forever to figure out the exit numbers on that; they're based on a N/S US 84 with milepost zero at the US 60 junction in Fort Sumner.

Completely forgot that one was even a thing.   
Don't forget the NM 599 expressway around Santa Fe.

Bruce

Seattle, given that there's only two (I-405 and I-705, the latter doesn't really count).

Scott5114

Quote from: Revive 755 on January 05, 2019, 11:16:47 PM
* Perhaps Tulsa, OK?  It has I-244, but I-444 is unsigned, and it wouldn't be too hard to have another even x44 as a southern bypass.

The Creek Turnpike was actually added to the Interstate System by a federal transportation bill, but the Oklahoma Transportation Commission has never pursued an Interstate designation for it, so it's never been numbered as such. I supposed that would make it a 0di. When it was decided to  finally give it a number of some kind, it got a meat cleaver and the number 364.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

index

#38
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 06, 2019, 03:59:32 PM
Durham, NC with the Durham Freeway (NC 147) but it's planned to become I-885 in the near future.
Also all of the U.S. 421 freeway extending from I-40 and crossing I-77 in the middle to end up Wilkesboro. It's not fully up to interstate standards though and would require wider shoulders, but that's about it.


Adding on to this, formerly the Piedmont Triad. Going away from this trend with the lack of 3DIs, though, with the introduction of 285 and the slow progression of I-785 and I-840, which still don't play too big a role in the area's network, IIRC, although they'll eventually do that.


The Miami/Hollywood/Ft. Lauderdale/blah blah blah there's a lot of these cities area, although it has I-595 and I-195, don't have their 3DIs servicing the metro area as a whole, focusing on more localized routes. So they could count as 3DI-averse, I guess. Most of the stuff they've got is state highways, in that regard it's similar to Phoenix.
I love my 2010 Ford Explorer.



Counties traveled

wanderer2575

Somewhat hijacking this thread, Detroit is averse to business routes.

Flint1979

Detroit really doesn't have many 3-di's.
I-75 has I-275 and I-375.
I-94 has none.
I-96 only has I-696.
I-94's bypass is really I-69 though for long distance travel, they meet near Marshall and end together in Port Huron.

Henry

Fresno and Bakersfield, CA. This begs the question: What if I-5 were routed through them on Route 99 instead of to the west? We'll likely never know that now, but I don't think they'd have a chance back then either, as San Diego, Los Angeles and metropolitan Sacramento got top priority, as far as I-x05s went. We'll see if and when I-7/I-9 is finally designated.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

silverback1065

the 3d freeways in Pittsburgh shouldn't even be allowed to be interstates, they're hot garbage

Brandon

Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 13, 2019, 09:45:18 AM
Somewhat hijacking this thread, Detroit is averse to business routes.

Historically, they've had a few, most notably BS-696 along the Lodge.  However, there is BS-375 Downtown between the end of the Chrysler and the end of the Lodge, along Jefferson.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

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Flint1979

Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 13, 2019, 09:45:18 AM
Somewhat hijacking this thread, Detroit is averse to business routes.
Just I-75's in Pontiac, I-375's unsigned downtown and formerly I-96's and I-696's.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Flint1979 on January 14, 2019, 05:11:17 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 13, 2019, 09:45:18 AM
Somewhat hijacking this thread, Detroit is averse to business routes.
Just I-75's in Pontiac, I-375's unsigned downtown and formerly I-96's and I-696's.

Everyone forgetting when I-696 Business was on the Lodge Freeway?

Flint1979

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 14, 2019, 05:39:12 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 14, 2019, 05:11:17 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 13, 2019, 09:45:18 AM
Somewhat hijacking this thread, Detroit is averse to business routes.
Just I-75's in Pontiac, I-375's unsigned downtown and formerly I-96's and I-696's.

Everyone forgetting when I-696 Business was on the Lodge Freeway?
I know of it but I think it was decommissioned by the time I was born. Crazy that they would have a business route on the Lodge.

sprjus4

#47
Corpus Christi, TX.

Has Interstate 37 running to downtown, but also has two major freeways through the area, TX-286 / U.S. 181 and TX-358, none of which are signed as interstates. Both connect to I-37.

Another one in the area, TX-44, once it's fully upgraded to Robstown, it would also connect to Interstate 69.

adventurernumber1

Quote from: Henry on January 14, 2019, 11:25:10 AM
Fresno and Bakersfield, CA. This begs the question: What if I-5 were routed through them on Route 99 instead of to the west? We'll likely never know that now, but I don't think they'd have a chance back then either, as San Diego, Los Angeles and metropolitan Sacramento got top priority, as far as I-x05s went. We'll see if and when I-7/I-9 is finally designated.

So the question is, if/when I-7 or I-9 is designated along the CA 99 freeway corridor, will there be some three-digit interstates designated (either that of I-x07 or I-x09) within or near those respective cities along the corridor (Fresno, Bakersfield, etc.).
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michravera

Quote from: Henry on January 14, 2019, 11:25:10 AM
Fresno and Bakersfield, CA. This begs the question: What if I-5 were routed through them on Route 99 instead of to the west? We'll likely never know that now, but I don't think they'd have a chance back then either, as San Diego, Los Angeles and metropolitan Sacramento got top priority, as far as I-x05s went. We'll see if and when I-7/I-9 is finally designated.
I-305 and I-705 would have been available. At the time, I-105 was available also. I-705 still is. I-305 could be reclaimed from Sacramento as I-880 was. Perhaps, CASRs-58 and 41 would have received I-x05 designations. It is hard to know.



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