News:

Thank you for your patience during the Forum downtime while we upgraded the software. Welcome back and see this thread for some new features and other changes to the forum.

Main Menu

Massachusetts

Started by hotdogPi, October 12, 2013, 04:50:12 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Mergingtraffic

Does MASS DOT put any plans online? Some of their project pages have none.  Kinda surprised.  it's public knowledge isn't it? While all projects seem to be online in regards to their status.  I can't seem to find downloadable pdf plans for them.
I only take pics of good looking signs. Long live non-reflective button copy!
MergingTraffic https://www.flickr.com/photos/98731835@N05/


Zeffy

Quote from: doofy103 on March 21, 2015, 02:42:22 PM
Does MASS DOT put any plans online? Some of their project pages have none.  Kinda surprised.  it's public knowledge isn't it? While all projects seem to be online in regards to their status.  I can't seem to find downloadable pdf plans for them.

According to https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12961.0, roadman posted:

Quote from: roadman on July 21, 2014, 06:13:06 PM
MassDOT does not currently post signing plans on-line, however, you can request plans for specific projects after the project has been awarded to a contractor.  A listing of current MassDOT design and construction projects, which can be sorted by community, District office, status, or other, is available at  http://www.mhd.state.ma.us/default.asp?pgid=content/projectsRoot&sid=wrapper&iid=http://www.mhd.state.ma.us//ProjectInfo/

You can request plans from the Boston HQ Plans and Records Office - contact information is at http://www.massdot.state.ma.us/highway/Departments/PlansRecords.aspx

Electronic copies of plans are free - paper copies cost $1.00 per sheet.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

Pete from Boston

Unless we're talking very large format, $1.00 is borderline extortionate (and FOIA-unfriendly).  However, it's mostly a dead point since most people are gonna get it on .pdf anyway.

roadman

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 21, 2015, 07:14:19 PM
Unless we're talking very large format, $1.00 is borderline extortionate (and FOIA-unfriendly).  However, it's mostly a dead point since most people are gonna get it on .pdf anyway.
In Massachusetts at least, when granting an FOIA request, the agency is allowed to charge the applicant with both the time, which is based on the salary of the lowest grade employee knowlegeable enough to fufill the request, and a nominal cost for printing any copies of documents required to fufill the request.  The applicant is notified of these charges before the information is sent to them.  If they choose not to pay, they don't get the information.

This system is entirely fair, as it is designed to discourage frivilous requests.  What the agency cannot do is inquire as to why the information is being requested.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

Pete from Boston

I understand how these things work, but charging someone $50 for a copy of a 50-page document implies a ridiculous labor rate of something like $100+ per hour. 

I also understand the desire to spare valuable employee time from frivolous requests. I have known my share of people who have made requests of this type practically a lifestyle choice.  But the flipside of this is the tacit decision that requests by people without the means to spend at this rate are by nature frivolous, which does impose a certain judgment on the request even if it doesn't inquire about motivation.

"Fair" is a subjective term, and there are arguments on both sides, which is why the .pdf is a wonderful thing for everyone involved.

SectorZ

Quote from: roadman on March 23, 2015, 02:56:45 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 21, 2015, 07:14:19 PM
Unless we're talking very large format, $1.00 is borderline extortionate (and FOIA-unfriendly).  However, it's mostly a dead point since most people are gonna get it on .pdf anyway.
In Massachusetts at least, when granting an FOIA request, the agency is allowed to charge the applicant with both the time, which is based on the salary of the lowest grade employee knowlegeable enough to fufill the request, and a nominal cost for printing any copies of documents required to fufill the request.  The applicant is notified of these charges before the information is sent to them.  If they choose not to pay, they don't get the information.

This system is entirely fair, as it is designed to discourage frivilous requests.  What the agency cannot do is inquire as to why the information is being requested.

Fair may be relative when the MBTA wants to charge $1500 to get a days worth of e-mails between 2 employees at the agency.

roadman

Quote from: Cjzani on March 23, 2015, 06:36:13 PM
Quote from: roadman on March 23, 2015, 02:56:45 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 21, 2015, 07:14:19 PM
Unless we're talking very large format, $1.00 is borderline extortionate (and FOIA-unfriendly).  However, it's mostly a dead point since most people are gonna get it on .pdf anyway.
In Massachusetts at least, when granting an FOIA request, the agency is allowed to charge the applicant with both the time, which is based on the salary of the lowest grade employee knowlegeable enough to fufill the request, and a nominal cost for printing any copies of documents required to fufill the request.  The applicant is notified of these charges before the information is sent to them.  If they choose not to pay, they don't get the information.

This system is entirely fair, as it is designed to discourage frivilous requests.  What the agency cannot do is inquire as to why the information is being requested.

Fair may be relative when the MBTA wants to charge $1500 to get a days worth of e-mails between 2 employees at the agency.
When those two employees are the Director of Railroad Operations and the General Manager of Keolis, the company running the commuter rail, I could see how they could arrive at that price to gather the documents.  And shame on the media for submitting such a vague request (any and all correspondence) in the first place.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

SectorZ

Quote from: roadman on March 24, 2015, 01:25:53 PM
Quote from: Cjzani on March 23, 2015, 06:36:13 PM
Quote from: roadman on March 23, 2015, 02:56:45 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 21, 2015, 07:14:19 PM
Unless we're talking very large format, $1.00 is borderline extortionate (and FOIA-unfriendly).  However, it's mostly a dead point since most people are gonna get it on .pdf anyway.
In Massachusetts at least, when granting an FOIA request, the agency is allowed to charge the applicant with both the time, which is based on the salary of the lowest grade employee knowlegeable enough to fufill the request, and a nominal cost for printing any copies of documents required to fufill the request.  The applicant is notified of these charges before the information is sent to them.  If they choose not to pay, they don't get the information.

This system is entirely fair, as it is designed to discourage frivilous requests.  What the agency cannot do is inquire as to why the information is being requested.

Fair may be relative when the MBTA wants to charge $1500 to get a days worth of e-mails between 2 employees at the agency.
When those two employees are the Director of Railroad Operations and the General Manager of Keolis, the company running the commuter rail, I could see how they could arrive at that price to gather the documents.  And shame on the media for submitting such a vague request (any and all correspondence) in the first place.

The one I speak of is Beverly Johnson (soon to not be head of MBTA) and Joe Pesaturo (the Baghdad Bob of the MBTA), which Fox25 asked for. It does not cost that much to copy a bunch of e-mails and put them into a PDF. Hell, this same state charged a state rep $800 to get the EBT card balances exceeding $1000 to be put onto a 1 page piece of paper.

roadman

Quote from: Cjzani on March 25, 2015, 09:49:08 AM
Quote from: roadman on March 24, 2015, 01:25:53 PM
Quote from: Cjzani on March 23, 2015, 06:36:13 PM
Quote from: roadman on March 23, 2015, 02:56:45 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 21, 2015, 07:14:19 PM
Unless we're talking very large format, $1.00 is borderline extortionate (and FOIA-unfriendly).  However, it's mostly a dead point since most people are gonna get it on .pdf anyway.
In Massachusetts at least, when granting an FOIA request, the agency is allowed to charge the applicant with both the time, which is based on the salary of the lowest grade employee knowlegeable enough to fufill the request, and a nominal cost for printing any copies of documents required to fufill the request.  The applicant is notified of these charges before the information is sent to them.  If they choose not to pay, they don't get the information.

This system is entirely fair, as it is designed to discourage frivilous requests.  What the agency cannot do is inquire as to why the information is being requested.

Fair may be relative when the MBTA wants to charge $1500 to get a days worth of e-mails between 2 employees at the agency.
When those two employees are the Director of Railroad Operations and the General Manager of Keolis, the company running the commuter rail, I could see how they could arrive at that price to gather the documents.  And shame on the media for submitting such a vague request (any and all correspondence) in the first place.

The one I speak of is Beverly Johnson (soon to not be head of MBTA) and Joe Pesaturo (the Baghdad Bob of the MBTA), which Fox25 asked for. It does not cost that much to copy a bunch of e-mails and put them into a PDF. Hell, this same state charged a state rep $800 to get the EBT card balances exceeding $1000 to be put onto a 1 page piece of paper.
As I expalined, the cost is not so much in reproducing the documents, but in the salaries of the "lowest paid knowlegeable person".  In the case of e-mails that Scott and Pesaturo personally generated, it would be the salaries of Scott and Pesaturo.

With respect, I believe the First Amendment does not justifiy Faux News conducting another of its unspecified fishing expeditions at the taxpayers time or expense.  But I presume you've never been directed to respond to FOIA requests as part of your job.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

SectorZ

Fox 25 is owned by Cox Communications out of San Francisco, so enough with the "Faux News" meme. I don't see any of the other stations trying to get this info. Media requesting this stuff has a tad bit more of caché than some anti-gov't nerd with too much time on his hand, and yes I do sympathize with having to deal with those types of people.

vdeane

If someone emails me asking for the latest traffic count report on a roadway, I just look it up and give it to them.  Takes 30 seconds.  Some people, however, insist on referring people to the FOIA process for any release of information, even when they're willing to give it.  To me, that seems like unnecessary bureaucratic overhead wasting everyone's time, as the request then has to go through legal and gets bounced through a dozen departments and has accompanying forms.  The purpose of FOIA was to force government agencies to share information that they were supposed to be sharing but weren't, not to keep a bunch of lawyers employed.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Bickendan

Quote from: vdeane on March 25, 2015, 08:51:17 PM
If someone emails me asking for the latest traffic count report on a roadway, I just look it up and give it to them.  Takes 30 seconds.  Some people, however, insist on referring people to the FOIA process for any release of information, even when they're willing to give it.  To me, that seems like unnecessary bureaucratic overhead wasting everyone's time, as the request then has to go through legal and gets bounced through a dozen departments and has accompanying forms.  The purpose of FOIA was to force government agencies to share information that they were supposed to be sharing but weren't, not to keep a bunch of lawyers employed.
And they said there's no such thing as welfare for lawyers...

vdeane

They also do things like advice on possible courses of action in a DOT plan, for example with a highway abandonment.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Pete from Boston

Globe: Route 3 [south of Boston] could get express toll lanes:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/03/26/route-could-get-express-toll-lanes/i918GI798qz9u9DYf0W0fJ/story.html

Norwell to Braintree, four years, $600-800 million.

I'm curious how this plan emerged all of a sudden.

spooky

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 26, 2015, 10:12:46 PM
Globe: Route 3 [south of Boston] could get express toll lanes:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/03/26/route-could-get-express-toll-lanes/i918GI798qz9u9DYf0W0fJ/story.html

Norwell to Braintree, four years, $600-800 million.

I'm curious how this plan emerged all of a sudden.


I think this idea has been bouncing around for a while.

Zeffy

Were there any plans to upgrade MA 2 between Acton and Lexington? I noticed that there's a "gap" where MA 2 isn't a freeway between these two places.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

PHLBOS

Quote from: Zeffy on March 27, 2015, 10:49:53 AM
Were there any plans to upgrade MA 2 between Acton and Lexington? I noticed that there's a "gap" where MA 2 isn't a freeway between these two places.
At present, the MA 2/2A intersection just east of Concord is being converted to an interchange.

I'm not presently aware of any other upgrades along that MA 2 corridor that will actually come to fruition.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

roadman

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 26, 2015, 10:12:46 PM
Globe: Route 3 [south of Boston] could get express toll lanes:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/03/26/route-could-get-express-toll-lanes/i918GI798qz9u9DYf0W0fJ/story.html

Norwell to Braintree, four years, $600-800 million.

I'm curious how this plan emerged all of a sudden.

The proposal to widen the roadway has been around since the 1980s.  It's the "let's build it with express toll lanes to fund the construction" that's the new idea.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

Alps

Quote from: Zeffy on March 27, 2015, 10:49:53 AM
Were there any plans to upgrade MA 2 between Acton and Lexington? I noticed that there's a "gap" where MA 2 isn't a freeway between these two places.
Were there? Yes. They died awhile ago due to NIMBYism.

Zeffy

Quote from: Alps on March 27, 2015, 05:39:12 PM
Quote from: Zeffy on March 27, 2015, 10:49:53 AM
Were there any plans to upgrade MA 2 between Acton and Lexington? I noticed that there's a "gap" where MA 2 isn't a freeway between these two places.
Were there? Yes. They died awhile ago due to NIMBYism.

That's never shocking in the northeast.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

Zeffy

Another question which I was reminded of by the "roundabout" warning sign in your pic - are Massachusetts' rotaries as they are called just traffic circles? They look safer than New Jersey's deathtraps, but they don't look as safe as roundabouts. Although, most of them are more circular in shape than New Jersey's circles.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

Pete from Boston

They are traffic circles.  Traffic in them has the right of way.

The new little roundabouts are usually not signed as rotaries.  Some similar smaller rotaries are, but they are not necessarily engineered as specifically as the modern roundabout.

Alps

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 27, 2015, 11:04:44 PM
They are traffic circles.  Traffic in them has the right of way.

The new little roundabouts are usually not signed as rotaries.  Some similar smaller rotaries are, but they are not necessarily engineered as specifically as the modern roundabout.
Traffic in rotaries generally has the right of way - similar to roundabouts, different from NJ's circles - though there are some exceptions. Rotaries are generally much larger than roundabouts, sometimes measured in tenths of a mile (the one at 2/2A/119 is about 0.2 miles around), and often do not have a round shape. Similar to traffic circles, rotaries do not maintain lane balances of incoming roads, so you have to guess at where your car should be laterally relative to other cars, and there's no rule as to whether someone in a "left lane" can exit at a given spoke. Another similarity to traffic circles is the unwritten rules of how it functions - all of the locals will know how to drive the rotary properly, but if you try to drive it like a roundabout, you'll be cut off at some point. Rotaries are generally much better signed than NJ's circles, on par with (though different than) modern roundabouts. Finally, rotary spokes do not have to enter "left of" the center, which is a common design rule with roundabouts - rotary spokes can be at shallower angles like traffic circles.

mass_citizen

Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 21, 2015, 07:14:19 PM
Unless we're talking very large format, $1.00 is borderline extortionate (and FOIA-unfriendly).  However, it's mostly a dead point since most people are gonna get it on .pdf anyway.

FYI full size plans are 24x36 sheets which I'm assuming is part of the reason behind that cost. You'd need a magnifying glass if they sent you 8.5x11 plan sheets.

Pete from Boston


Quote from: mass_citizen on April 22, 2015, 03:03:33 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 21, 2015, 07:14:19 PM
Unless we're talking very large format, $1.00 is borderline extortionate (and FOIA-unfriendly).  However, it's mostly a dead point since most people are gonna get it on .pdf anyway.

FYI full size plans are 24x36 sheets which I'm assuming is part of the reason behind that cost. You'd need a magnifying glass if they sent you 8.5x11 plan sheets.

Look, someone is probably going to say it's too much to ask, but isn't it reasonable to have a different rate for 24x36 sheets than 8½x11?  There is everywhere else.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.