Title: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 26, 2021, 01:01:03 PM
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 26, 2021, 01:01:03 PM
Got one that doesn't fit in the route designation threads? Put it here! I'll start:
Control states are better than control cities. Why? When the control destination is automatically the next state the highway passes through, you can no longer nitpick over which city is inherently more "worthy" of winning the control city trophy. (Example: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11190.msg2588597#msg2588597 )
Control states are better than control cities. Why? When the control destination is automatically the next state the highway passes through, you can no longer nitpick over which city is inherently more "worthy" of winning the control city trophy. (Example: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11190.msg2588597#msg2588597 )
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on March 26, 2021, 01:17:52 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on March 26, 2021, 01:17:52 PM
The overwhelming majority of freeways are boring to drive on.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hbelkins on March 26, 2021, 01:43:02 PM
Post by: hbelkins on March 26, 2021, 01:43:02 PM
Traffic lights are better than roundabouts. Four-way stops are better than roundabouts. Anything is better than a roundabout.
US 31 does not need to be a full freeway between Indy and South Bend.
Any limited-access freeway that connects to an interstate and nominally meets interstate standards, or is indistinguishable from an interstate by the average motorist, should be signed as an interstate.
US 31 does not need to be a full freeway between Indy and South Bend.
Any limited-access freeway that connects to an interstate and nominally meets interstate standards, or is indistinguishable from an interstate by the average motorist, should be signed as an interstate.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 26, 2021, 01:58:01 PM
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 26, 2021, 01:58:01 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 26, 2021, 01:43:02 PM
Traffic lights are better than roundabouts. Four-way stops are better than roundabouts. Anything is better than a roundabout.
Hah, you got me on that one! :P I'll still defend my lovely, annoying circular roadways, though. Oh, and if your personal hell isn't the UK or Massachusetts, then it must be this place: https://goo.gl/maps/PGrYJR3Bkg9xYJWK8
A few more of mine:
Breezewood isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be (and it's actually kind of fun).
We should look to intersection improvements that can improve traffic flow on arterial roads and surface highways before jumping to the conclusion that they need to be made into freeways or bypassed with freeways. (See Muskogee, Oklahoma, for example.)
The hierarchy of roads is overrated. While idealistic, it can impose land use and access burdens if used unwisely, and it's not surprising that most places in the real-world take a somewhat half-hearted approach to implementing it anyway.
Driveways on expressways are just fine if they're right-in, right out (or signalized if it's something major like the entry to a mall or an amusement park).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 02:45:08 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 02:45:08 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 26, 2021, 01:43:02 PM
Four-way stops are better than _________.
No sentence can start that way and end up being correct.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on March 26, 2021, 02:47:32 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on March 26, 2021, 02:47:32 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 02:45:08 PMQuote from: hbelkins on March 26, 2021, 01:43:02 PM
Four-way stops are better than _________.
No sentence can start that way and end up being correct.
Five-way stops
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 02:51:12 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 02:51:12 PM
You got me! :-D
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 02:51:58 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 02:51:58 PM
My unpopular opinion: I like arc sodium highway lighting better than the modern alternatives.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 03:04:36 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 03:04:36 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 26, 2021, 01:17:52 PM
The overwhelming majority of freeways are boring to drive on.
So are the overwhelming majority of conventional roads, for that matter. The argument for conventional roads is you get to "see more", by which they usually mean more small towns. Small towns are more or less interchangeable and have nothing unique to them that isn't a historic event (which probably isn't going on while you're passing through on the state highway) or some local business (sure, Nellie's Diner makes fantastic fried chicken, but so does Glenda's Diner in a town about the same size that's 50 miles down the road, and about 20 different restaurants in an actual city).
And let's face it, when you're on a trip, you don't have the time to stop in every single small town and learn all about the Oak Resin Rebellion of 1917 (when Jeridida Sawfunkler climbed the grain elevator and declared "No man should have to parallel park on the streets of Goltry!"), or which of the anonymous historic buildings on Main Street (or is it Broadway?) makes the best fried paperclips, or whatever. Most of them are just going to represent a 25 mph zone in between two 65 mph zones that you have to slow down for as you make your way through the historic downtown that will look exactly like the historic downtown of the next 25 mph zone you will encounter eighteen miles down the road.
Freeways at least give you the opportunity to cover distance so you get to actually interesting places faster.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: 1995hoo on March 26, 2021, 03:07:59 PM
Post by: 1995hoo on March 26, 2021, 03:07:59 PM
My unpopular opinion, at least among members of this forum: I prefer Clearview signs to Highway Gothic.
(Reason for that: I find them easier to read from a distance, especially at night.)
(Reason for that: I find them easier to read from a distance, especially at night.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TEG24601 on March 26, 2021, 03:17:54 PM
Post by: TEG24601 on March 26, 2021, 03:17:54 PM
There is nothing wrong with left entrances or exits, under any circumstance... except when there is a lot of traffic that wants to go from a right-hand onramp to the left off-ramp, or left on-ramp to right off-ramp in a short distance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 26, 2021, 03:27:10 PM
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 26, 2021, 03:27:10 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 03:04:36 PM
So are the overwhelming majority of conventional roads, for that matter. The argument for conventional roads is you get to "see more", by which they usually mean more small towns. Small towns are more or less interchangeable and have nothing unique to them that isn't a historic event (which probably isn't going on while you're passing through on the state highway) or some local business (sure, Nellie's Diner makes fantastic fried chicken, but so does Glenda's Diner in a town about the same size that's 50 miles down the road, and about 20 different restaurants in an actual city).
And let's face it, when you're on a trip, you don't have the time to stop in every single small town and learn all about the Oak Resin Rebellion of 1917 (when Jeridida Sawfunkler climbed the grain elevator and declared "No man should have to parallel park on the streets of Goltry!"), or which of the anonymous historic buildings on Main Street (or is it Broadway?) makes the best fried paperclips, or whatever. Most of them are just going to represent a 25 mph zone in between two 65 mph zones that you have to slow down for as you make your way through the historic downtown that will look exactly like the historic downtown of the next 25 mph zone you will encounter eighteen miles down the road.
This is gold. You could write a whole essay on this topic and call it "The Generic Small Town."
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 03:27:18 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 03:27:18 PM
Quote from: formulanone on March 25, 2021, 01:36:26 PM
The idea that Senator Goofball and Representative Busybody and the Lollypop Guild had a hand in stopping the completion of the Overbite Expressway and championed an exit to their mistress' hometowns rarely interests me.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 03:04:36 PM
And let's face it, when you're on a trip, you don't have the time to stop in every single small town and learn all about the Oak Resin Rebellion of 1917 (when Jeridida Sawfunkler climbed the grain elevator and declared "No man should have to parallel park on the streets of Goltry!"), or which of the anonymous historic buildings on Main Street (or is it Broadway?) makes the best fried paperclips, or whatever.
I must say, the literary quality of forum posts has been improving noticeably lately. Thanks for the good reading, gentlemen!
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jmacswimmer on March 26, 2021, 03:35:54 PM
Post by: jmacswimmer on March 26, 2021, 03:35:54 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 26, 2021, 03:07:59 PM
My unpopular opinion, at least among members of this forum: I prefer Clearview signs to Highway Gothic.
(Reason for that: I find them easier to read from a distance, especially at night.)
When it's done right (i.e. Clearview only for the control cities & Highway Gothic everywhere else) I also really like Clearview - here's a VDOT example (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.652355,-77.4233541,3a,75y,288.26h,86.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9AvFz5la_P6D2caCE8uB7A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en) I find snazzy. It's the Clearview-overload signs I despise (such as this PennDOT montrosity (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1805477,-80.1688937,3a,75y,11.32h,85.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sy4bVl6mqZbDJoUqv9p03Bw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 03:52:39 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 03:52:39 PM
Some of mine:
-Undivided two lane roads with a speed limit of over 45 MPH are inherently dangerous.
-Eight-inch signal lights should be banned.
-There should be certain stretches of interstate that have no speed limit and only an advisory speed (okay, maybe not unpopular)
-Clearview is a tragic mistake. Not just a preference.
-Pavement arrows should be used next to ONE WAY signs and anywhere where the flow of traffic isn't very apparent
-If you're speeding 20+ over in the lane next to me, behind me, and I change lanes into you with a signal, you should hold the majority of the liability for any collision.
-A single center yellow line is acceptable for low-speed non-freeway roads with one lane in each direction.
-Roundabouts and four-way stops, if you know what you're doing and where you're going, AREN'T THAT BAD.
-Undivided two lane roads with a speed limit of over 45 MPH are inherently dangerous.
-Eight-inch signal lights should be banned.
-There should be certain stretches of interstate that have no speed limit and only an advisory speed (okay, maybe not unpopular)
-Clearview is a tragic mistake. Not just a preference.
-Pavement arrows should be used next to ONE WAY signs and anywhere where the flow of traffic isn't very apparent
-If you're speeding 20+ over in the lane next to me, behind me, and I change lanes into you with a signal, you should hold the majority of the liability for any collision.
-A single center yellow line is acceptable for low-speed non-freeway roads with one lane in each direction.
-Roundabouts and four-way stops, if you know what you're doing and where you're going, AREN'T THAT BAD.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: 1995hoo on March 26, 2021, 03:59:51 PM
Post by: 1995hoo on March 26, 2021, 03:59:51 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 03:52:39 PM
Some of mine:
-Undivided two lane roads with a speed limit of over 45 MPH are inherently dangerous.
....
If you don't mind my asking, what causes you to have this opinion? I interpret your comment to mean any two-lane road, including rural highways such as this one (https://goo.gl/maps/dzZ9Jr1eeh8G7yCP6) (which has a 65-mph speed limit, FWIW) or this one (https://goo.gl/maps/vQ2HUZ2p6juaiZes8) (posted at 55 mph).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 04:12:52 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 04:12:52 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 03:52:39 PM
-Undivided two lane roads with a speed limit of over 45 MPH are inherently dangerous.
Driving is inherently dangerous. Everything beyond that is merely a matter of degrees.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 03:52:39 PM
-There should be certain stretches of interstate that have no speed limit and only an advisory speed (okay, maybe not unpopular)
So driving an undivided highway at 55 mph is inherently dangerous, but driving a divided highway as fast as you want is not?
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 03:52:39 PM
-A single center yellow line is acceptable for low-speed non-freeway roads with one lane in each direction.
A lot of the world agrees with you. In fact, many of them don't even bother with the color yellow either. https://goo.gl/maps/QrJ3pSkbhVbw89Gw5
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 26, 2021, 04:15:30 PM
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 26, 2021, 04:15:30 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 03:52:39 PM
Some of mine:
-Undivided two lane roads with a speed limit of over 45 MPH are inherently dangerous.
It's better to make roadways dangerous enough so they are engineered for a 45 mph limit?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: index on March 26, 2021, 04:27:01 PM
Post by: index on March 26, 2021, 04:27:01 PM
- I like clearview
- Short, intra-state 3DUS routes don't have to go, there's nothing wrong with them
- Grid and numbering system violations, bar ridiculously egregious ones that make no sense and take a number from a location it could serve better/is close in proximity, don't matter. In fact I could go as far as to say numbering grids don't matter at all. How many people actually navigate by a grid? Do most people even know what grids mean/pay attention to them? Would it impair navigation at all to ignore those rules? Some state highway systems don't even follow a grid anymore. Try to follow them, sure, that's cool, I'm all for that, but in the very end I don't believe it's that big a deal.
- Most state DOTs are horrible and really need to invest not only in improving their infrastructure and making road quality suck less, but adopting better standards. All states should adopt 6 inch markings and RRPMs, even on two lane roads and surface roads, ditch paint for any and all uses, etc. The FHWA should push for this as hard as they pushed FDOT to ditch colored US shields.
- Building freeways everywhere and adding lanes is only a temporary, band-aid fix on capacity issues. People have got to leave behind the 50s and 60s urban planning mentality. Freeway expansions are generally bad and should be avoided at all costs, bar some exceptions such as I-526 in Charleston (which the planned "extension" of needs to be a proper freeway. Not a stupid at-grade boulevard that has the potential to shave off only two seconds of commute time.)
- Four-way stops should be totally banned. If an intersection is dangerous enough to necessitate them, signalize it.
- Instead of saying "people should just learn to drive" we should invest in features that lower the probability of someone making a dumb mistake. Stupid is gonna stupid, so it's best to save the people who know what they're doing and pull their weight properly from it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Zeffy on March 26, 2021, 04:31:23 PM
Post by: Zeffy on March 26, 2021, 04:31:23 PM
I prefer jughandles at busy intersections compared to trying to turn left against traffic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: 1995hoo on March 26, 2021, 04:35:35 PM
Post by: 1995hoo on March 26, 2021, 04:35:35 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on March 26, 2021, 03:35:54 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 26, 2021, 03:07:59 PM
My unpopular opinion, at least among members of this forum: I prefer Clearview signs to Highway Gothic.
(Reason for that: I find them easier to read from a distance, especially at night.)
When it's done right (i.e. Clearview only for the control cities & Highway Gothic everywhere else) I also really like Clearview - here's a VDOT example (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.652355,-77.4233541,3a,75y,288.26h,86.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9AvFz5la_P6D2caCE8uB7A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en) I find snazzy. It's the Clearview-overload signs I despise (such as this PennDOT montrosity (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1805477,-80.1688937,3a,75y,11.32h,85.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sy4bVl6mqZbDJoUqv9p03Bw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)).
Those VDOT signs do look good. Some of VDOT's earliest Clearview signs were absolute monstrosities (https://goo.gl/maps/gJq5nJv8XmNpeuS1A) (those two, which are gone now due to interchange reconfiguration, were so bad the FHWA featured them in its FAQ about what not to do) and there are still some pretty ugly ones out there (https://goo.gl/maps/vjN3d7LA86tWS5ep8).
On the whole, though, even when the sign is ugly, I still find it easier to read, although I will concede that with a really ugly sign I get distracted by the ugly aspect and may miss what the sign says (not that it matters in my case in the examples in the prior paragraph since I know the roads).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on March 26, 2021, 04:39:49 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on March 26, 2021, 04:39:49 PM
I'll take Clearview over Georgia's Series D signs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: sprjus4 on March 26, 2021, 04:49:45 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on March 26, 2021, 04:49:45 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on March 26, 2021, 03:35:54 PMI despise that particular signage setup, and it's not due to the Clearview font.
I also really like Clearview - here's a VDOT example (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.652355,-77.4233541,3a,75y,288.26h,86.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9AvFz5la_P6D2caCE8uB7A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en) I find snazzy.
It's because it gives a "1/2 mile" notice then a mere 350 ft later, exits off.
Talk about a mislead.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 04:51:24 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 04:51:24 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 26, 2021, 04:39:49 PM
I'll take Clearview over Georgia's Series D signs.
Over, like, as in Clearview exit tabs?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 04:52:35 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 04:52:35 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 26, 2021, 04:49:45 PMQuote from: jmacswimmer on March 26, 2021, 03:35:54 PM
I also really like Clearview - here's a VDOT example (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.652355,-77.4233541,3a,75y,288.26h,86.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9AvFz5la_P6D2caCE8uB7A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en) I find snazzy.
I despise that particular signage setup, and it's not due to the Clearview font.
It's because it gives a "1/2 mile" notice then a mere 350 ft later, exits off.
Talk about a mislead.
To the lane split, yes. To the actual gore point, no. That's a tough one...
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on March 26, 2021, 04:58:21 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on March 26, 2021, 04:58:21 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 04:51:24 PMMain display and exit tabs. Ohio used both between 2014-2017 before switching back to FHWA Series E the following year, so I'm somewhat used to clearview.Quote from: SkyPesos on March 26, 2021, 04:39:49 PM
I'll take Clearview over Georgia's Series D signs.
Over, like, as in Clearview exit tabs?
Also worth noting, Michigan uses clearview on their enhanced mile markers too.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 05:00:42 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 05:00:42 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 26, 2021, 04:58:21 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 04:51:24 PMQuote from: SkyPesos on March 26, 2021, 04:39:49 PM
I'll take Clearview over Georgia's Series D signs.
Over, like, as in Clearview exit tabs?
Main display and exit tabs. Ohio used both between 2014-2017 before switching back to FHWA Series E the following year, so I'm somewhat used to clearview.
Also worth noting, Michigan uses clearview on their enhanced mile markers too.
Sorry, that was a joke that didn't come across very well. I was joking that you must like Clearview exit tabs "over" (above) Georgia Series D panel signs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Zeffy on March 26, 2021, 05:09:59 PM
Post by: Zeffy on March 26, 2021, 05:09:59 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 26, 2021, 04:58:21 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 04:51:24 PMMain display and exit tabs. Ohio used both between 2014-2017 before switching back to FHWA Series E the following year, so I'm somewhat used to clearview.Quote from: SkyPesos on March 26, 2021, 04:39:49 PM
I'll take Clearview over Georgia's Series D signs.
Over, like, as in Clearview exit tabs?
Also worth noting, Michigan uses clearview on their enhanced mile markers too.
I don't mind Clearview as much anymore, but I still hate it in negative contrast situations, which I've seen PennDOT (and DelDOT) do.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: sprjus4 on March 26, 2021, 05:24:44 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on March 26, 2021, 05:24:44 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 04:52:35 PMHonestly, it should be signed to the lane split, not the gore point. The gore point is useless when it comes to where drivers are actually legally allowed to change lanes.Quote from: sprjus4 on March 26, 2021, 04:49:45 PMQuote from: jmacswimmer on March 26, 2021, 03:35:54 PM
I also really like Clearview - here's a VDOT example (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.652355,-77.4233541,3a,75y,288.26h,86.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9AvFz5la_P6D2caCE8uB7A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en) I find snazzy.
I despise that particular signage setup, and it's not due to the Clearview font.
It's because it gives a "1/2 mile" notice then a mere 350 ft later, exits off.
Talk about a mislead.
To the lane split, yes. To the actual gore point, no. That's a tough one...
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on March 26, 2021, 05:25:58 PM
Post by: formulanone on March 26, 2021, 05:25:58 PM
Copied some of this from the unpopular route thread.
<<< Contradictions may apply >>>
This silly hobby still releases dopamine, but usually only when driving. I actually get lost sometimes, and if I'm not pressed for time, it actually makes it a bit of an adventure. Not always knowing where you're going, nor exactly headed, and not knowing what you'll encounter is part of the thrill. Scenic two lane roads with lots of curves are why I'm interested in this hobby. That, and taking pictures of stuff. Interstates are great for making up time, but they're usually dull (and I don't really find the discussion about them all that interesting, either). I'm not interested in long-distance Street View trips, it ruins most of the surprise.
I'm not a big fan of Clearview, but I'm really over the folks that just complain "Ew, Clearview killitwithfire puke-emoji". I get it, it probably replaced a lovely button copy sign which you remember fondly for the last 30 years, but now it's gone and it's a great reason to go find other signs you like.
Signage isn't perfect, and it ain't never gonna be perfect...But it sure is funny when it's prefect.
If you hate roundabouts, try taking them at 25-35 miles an hour and then come see me. It's also not my fault if you hit anything.
I'm not a stickler for exit tab design. Big, little, squeezed, left, right, middle, tabbed...it's just nice if they're there.
Exit renumbering isn't a bad idea if there's a reason to replace the signage en masse. Do you really think that Pleasurable Motor Sports and Big Furniture Emporium can't drum up a new advertisement every few months?
I don't really care to complain much about roads nor most fantasy improvements nor wish to comment on them (unless they're really plausible, or if it involves a light that shines in every window). The idea that Senator Goofball, Representative Busybody, and the Lollypop Guild had a hand in stopping the completion of the Overbite Expressway and championed an exit to their mistress' hometowns rarely interests me.
I like maps when I'm at home, but GPS in the field (that is, if and when I need it and there's plenty of time I do).
Sorry, I'm not a big fan of road videos - if it's longer than 5 minutes, I'm kind of bored.
<<< Contradictions may apply >>>
This silly hobby still releases dopamine, but usually only when driving. I actually get lost sometimes, and if I'm not pressed for time, it actually makes it a bit of an adventure. Not always knowing where you're going, nor exactly headed, and not knowing what you'll encounter is part of the thrill. Scenic two lane roads with lots of curves are why I'm interested in this hobby. That, and taking pictures of stuff. Interstates are great for making up time, but they're usually dull (and I don't really find the discussion about them all that interesting, either). I'm not interested in long-distance Street View trips, it ruins most of the surprise.
I'm not a big fan of Clearview, but I'm really over the folks that just complain "Ew, Clearview killitwithfire puke-emoji". I get it, it probably replaced a lovely button copy sign which you remember fondly for the last 30 years, but now it's gone and it's a great reason to go find other signs you like.
Signage isn't perfect, and it ain't never gonna be perfect...But it sure is funny when it's prefect.
If you hate roundabouts, try taking them at 25-35 miles an hour and then come see me. It's also not my fault if you hit anything.
I'm not a stickler for exit tab design. Big, little, squeezed, left, right, middle, tabbed...it's just nice if they're there.
Exit renumbering isn't a bad idea if there's a reason to replace the signage en masse. Do you really think that Pleasurable Motor Sports and Big Furniture Emporium can't drum up a new advertisement every few months?
I don't really care to complain much about roads nor most fantasy improvements nor wish to comment on them (unless they're really plausible, or if it involves a light that shines in every window). The idea that Senator Goofball, Representative Busybody, and the Lollypop Guild had a hand in stopping the completion of the Overbite Expressway and championed an exit to their mistress' hometowns rarely interests me.
I like maps when I'm at home, but GPS in the field (that is, if and when I need it and there's plenty of time I do).
Sorry, I'm not a big fan of road videos - if it's longer than 5 minutes, I'm kind of bored.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 26, 2021, 05:37:09 PM
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 26, 2021, 05:37:09 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 03:52:39 PM
-Undivided two lane roads with a speed limit of over 45 MPH are inherently dangerous.
Interesting. I could get behind upgrading them with Jesery barriers and a passing lane every 10 miles or less. Still, I think it's unrealistic to expect major upgrades of most two-lane highways. FWIW, two-lane, undivided highways go up to 75 MPH in Texas: https://goo.gl/maps/xC6HcTGaVHTfon4R9
Quote from: Zeffy on March 26, 2021, 04:31:23 PM
I prefer jughandles at busy intersections compared to trying to turn left against traffic.
High-five!
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 07:05:24 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 07:05:24 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 26, 2021, 03:59:51 PMQuote from: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 03:52:39 PM
Some of mine:
-Undivided two lane roads with a speed limit of over 45 MPH are inherently dangerous.
....
If you don't mind my asking, what causes you to have this opinion? I interpret your comment to mean any two-lane road, including rural highways such as this one (https://goo.gl/maps/dzZ9Jr1eeh8G7yCP6) (which has a 65-mph speed limit, FWIW) or this one (https://goo.gl/maps/vQ2HUZ2p6juaiZes8) (posted at 55 mph).
Well, sorry to get a little dark here, but research shows that the fastest speed you have a fighting chance of surviving a head-on collision is 43 MPH:
https://www.thecarcrashdetective.com/how-to-survive-a-head-on-collision-slow-down-to-below-43mph/
So for all of you asking, that's the basis for my opinion and that's why 45 is really the max I would call an undivided road something other than "dangerous". With a limit at 50 MPH or higher, your life is basically at the mercy of oncoming traffic to stay in their lane. Which I don't trust them enough to do, because some even completely sober drivers tend to get too close to the center line when taking curves. Also, if there's a sudden event that causes you or someone else to swerve and you or them can't go to the right, well, you know what happens then.
Quote from: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 04:12:52 PM
So driving an undivided highway at 55 mph is inherently dangerous, but driving a divided highway as fast as you want is not?
Ever heard of something called the autobahn? But even that still has an advisory speed of 130 kph (81 MPH), which is why I said there should still be advisory speeds posted. And not all divided highways are equal. You can't compare rural I-80 with the I-93 Super-2 in New Hampshire.
Quote from: kphoger
A lot of the world agrees with you. In fact, many of them don't even bother with the color yellow either. https://goo.gl/maps/QrJ3pSkbhVbw89Gw5
Depends on whether or not this forum is representative of "a lot of the world".
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 26, 2021, 04:15:30 PM
It's better to make roadways dangerous enough so they are engineered for a 45 mph limit?
No, keep them the way they are, just maybe post limits over 45 somewhat less often.
Quote from: stridentweasel on March 26, 2021, 05:37:09 PM
Interesting. I could get behind upgrading them with Jesery barriers and a passing lane every 10 miles or less. Still, I think it's unrealistic to expect major upgrades of most two-lane highways. FWIW, two-lane, undivided highways go up to 75 MPH in Texas: https://goo.gl/maps/xC6HcTGaVHTfon4R9
Agreed, it would be a huge safety improvement but it's a far-fetched goal. Maybe just widen the roads a little and paint the two center yellow lines 4 or 5 feet apart?
And yes, I knew about those undivided 75ers. When I'm in Texas, I'll probably go on those a couple of times and then avoid them if I encounter them again.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: andrepoiy on March 26, 2021, 07:42:46 PM
Post by: andrepoiy on March 26, 2021, 07:42:46 PM
I am not a fan of protected left turns - sometimes sitting behind that light takes way too long.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 07:43:24 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 07:43:24 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 07:05:24 PM
So for all of you asking, that's the basis for my opinion and that's why 45 is really the max I would call an undivided road something other than "dangerous". With a limit at 50 MPH or higher, your life is basically at the mercy of oncoming traffic to stay in their lane.
In most of the areas that have two-lane roads at 50 MPH or higher, there is no oncoming traffic most of the time.
Having a 45 MPH limit on any random state highway in Oklahoma west of US-81, just because it's undivided, would be really stupid.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: I-55 on March 26, 2021, 07:47:03 PM
Post by: I-55 on March 26, 2021, 07:47:03 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on March 26, 2021, 07:42:46 PM
I am not a fan of protected left turns - sometimes sitting behind that light takes way too long.
What's more annoying is a flashing yellow arrow light that never gives you a flashing arrow (unless its between midnight and 6 AM).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: machias on March 26, 2021, 07:49:52 PM
Post by: machias on March 26, 2021, 07:49:52 PM
I believe every interchange should have an exit number, even if it's the only exit on the lone two miles of expressway or freeway on a 350 mile cross-state roadway. For example, I believe NY Route 166 / Cherry Valley on US Route 20 should be Exit 291.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 07:50:07 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 07:50:07 PM
Quote from: I-55 on March 26, 2021, 07:47:03 PMQuote from: andrepoiy on March 26, 2021, 07:42:46 PM
I am not a fan of protected left turns - sometimes sitting behind that light takes way too long.
What's more annoying is a flashing yellow arrow light that never gives you a flashing arrow (unless its between midnight and 6 AM).
What's more annoying is a flashing yellow arrow light that only gives you a flashing arrow, while the entire population of the county is driving by in the other direction, so only one person actually gets to go on each cycle.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 26, 2021, 08:06:24 PM
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 26, 2021, 08:06:24 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 07:05:24 PMQuote from: jeffandnicole on March 26, 2021, 04:15:30 PM
It's better to make roadways dangerous enough so they are engineered for a 45 mph limit?
No, keep them the way they are, just maybe post limits over 45 somewhat less often.
Hate to break it to you, but underposting speed limits does not reduce the speed people are going to drive.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 08:10:16 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 08:10:16 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 07:43:24 PM
In most of the areas that have two-lane roads at 50 MPH or higher, there is no oncoming traffic most of the time.
Most of the areas with 50 or higher? Isn't there a plethora of undivided 55 MPH roads in the country that see a good amount of traffic? Yes, the 65s and 75s undividededs that exist have less vehicles on them, but you'd have to agree that many of the 55s are used as commuter routes or a part of commuter routes.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 07:43:24 PM
Having a 45 MPH limit on any random state highway in Oklahoma west of US-81, just because it's undivided, would be really stupid.
Well, yes. The risk isn't like an on and off switch, but rather its extent is increased or reduced depending on the presence of oncoming traffic. But it's still there. Not saying every undivided two laner needs a 45 MPH limit, but you get my point.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Big John on March 26, 2021, 08:17:21 PM
Post by: Big John on March 26, 2021, 08:17:21 PM
Speed limits should be the 85th percentile of the prevailing speed, rounded to the nearest 5 MPH.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: RobbieL2415 on March 26, 2021, 08:19:22 PM
Post by: RobbieL2415 on March 26, 2021, 08:19:22 PM
* School bus stops should be set up so that they only receive/discharge children on the right shoulder side, that way oncoming traffic never has to stop.
* Sequential exits are superior.
* I like left exits as long as they're part of a high-speed interchange.
* I despise protected-only left signals.
* Green flashing signals are cool
* Breezewood should stay as-is.
* Metric over Imperial
* Sequential exits are superior.
* I like left exits as long as they're part of a high-speed interchange.
* I despise protected-only left signals.
* Green flashing signals are cool
* Breezewood should stay as-is.
* Metric over Imperial
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 08:37:08 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 08:37:08 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 07:05:24 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 26, 2021, 04:12:52 PM
So driving an undivided highway at 55 mph is inherently dangerous, but driving a divided highway as fast as you want is not?
Ever heard of something called the autobahn? But even that still has an advisory speed of 130 kph (81 MPH), which is why I said there should still be advisory speeds posted. And not all divided highways are equal. You can't compare rural I-80 with the I-93 Super-2 in New Hampshire.
Yes, I've heard of the Autobahn. I've been on it, actually. But what's your point? Back in high school, when my dad and I picked up our German exchange student from the airport and were driving back on US-36 in eastern Colorado (https://goo.gl/maps/h8KdG4kx61qtp1VF9), he mentioned that 65 mph seemed like an awfully low speed limit for a wide open highway like that. When we asked him what speed his parents would probably drive on that highway, he said they'd probably go 80 or 85 mph.
By the way, I've been on the Autobahn in two vehicles: (1) a Fiat motor home, five speed on the column, that couldn't go over 70 mph; (2) a Renault minivan that got up to 100 mph, but no faster because the driver said the tires tend to lose traction at speeds above that point. Both times, plenty of traffic was flying by us in the left lane. I'm not sure what you're thinking the "advisory speed" means in real life...
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: andrepoiy on March 26, 2021, 08:46:03 PM
Post by: andrepoiy on March 26, 2021, 08:46:03 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on March 26, 2021, 08:19:22 PM
* School bus stops should be set up so that they only receive/discharge children on the right shoulder side, that way oncoming traffic never has to stop.
Reason why both directions must stop is because kids might want to cross the street after getting off the bus.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on March 26, 2021, 09:24:56 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on March 26, 2021, 09:24:56 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on March 26, 2021, 08:46:03 PMQuote from: RobbieL2415 on March 26, 2021, 08:19:22 PM
* School bus stops should be set up so that they only receive/discharge children on the right shoulder side, that way oncoming traffic never has to stop.
Reason why both directions must stop is because kids might want to cross the street after getting off the bus.
I'm pretty sure that what Robbie's saying is that the bus should turn around somehow so that those children wouldn't have to cross the street.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 26, 2021, 09:31:11 PM
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 26, 2021, 09:31:11 PM
Quote from: machias on March 26, 2021, 07:49:52 PM
I believe every interchange should have an exit number, even if it's the only exit on the lone two miles of expressway or freeway on a 350 mile cross-state roadway. For example, I believe NY Route 166 / Cherry Valley on US Route 20 should be Exit 291.
Agreed, agreed, agreed!
...Mostly. If it's a short freeway segment, simply saying "The exit" would suffice.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: OCGuy81 on March 26, 2021, 09:42:49 PM
Post by: OCGuy81 on March 26, 2021, 09:42:49 PM
Google and Apple maps need to show county lines.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: RobbieL2415 on March 26, 2021, 09:47:54 PM
Post by: RobbieL2415 on March 26, 2021, 09:47:54 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on March 26, 2021, 08:46:03 PMNo, I'm saying they should only pick up/drop off kids with houses on the right side of the roadQuote from: RobbieL2415 on March 26, 2021, 08:19:22 PM
* School bus stops should be set up so that they only receive/discharge children on the right shoulder side, that way oncoming traffic never has to stop.
Reason why both directions must stop is because kids might want to cross the street after getting off the bus.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on March 26, 2021, 09:59:22 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on March 26, 2021, 09:59:22 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on March 26, 2021, 09:47:54 PMIf it's on a busy arterial, yes. But in a residential neighborhood with a moving car every 3 minutes, I don't see a need for that.Quote from: andrepoiy on March 26, 2021, 08:46:03 PMNo, I'm saying they should only pick up/drop off kids with houses on the right side of the roadQuote from: RobbieL2415 on March 26, 2021, 08:19:22 PM
* School bus stops should be set up so that they only receive/discharge children on the right shoulder side, that way oncoming traffic never has to stop.
Reason why both directions must stop is because kids might want to cross the street after getting off the bus.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on March 26, 2021, 10:15:35 PM
Post by: vdeane on March 26, 2021, 10:15:35 PM
Quote from: index on March 26, 2021, 04:27:01 PMWhile those RRPMs are quite nice in the areas that have them, this post makes me think you've never lived in an area that experiences real winter. They'd get ripped up by plows real quick.
Most state DOTs are horrible and really need to invest not only in improving their infrastructure and making road quality suck less, but adopting better standards. All states should adopt 6 inch markings and RRPMs, even on two lane roads and surface roads, ditch paint for any and all uses, etc. The FHWA should push for this as hard as they pushed FDOT to ditch colored US shields.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on March 26, 2021, 10:50:26 PM
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on March 26, 2021, 10:50:26 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 26, 2021, 09:42:49 PM
Google and Apple maps need to show county lines.
At minimum with what they have they need to stop making them disappear at a zoom level that makes it useless to figure out what you're looking for. If you google Joseph Pioneer Dude County and you want to see if SR-666 clips 1/5 mile of a county corner, you can't zoom in far enough to tell before the map removes it from display.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Occidental Tourist on March 27, 2021, 12:51:49 AM
Post by: Occidental Tourist on March 27, 2021, 12:51:49 AM
Quote from: vdeane on March 26, 2021, 10:15:35 PMQuote from: index on March 26, 2021, 04:27:01 PMWhile those RRPMs are quite nice in the areas that have them, this post makes me think you've never lived in an area that experiences real winter. They'd get ripped up by plows real quick.
Most state DOTs are horrible and really need to invest not only in improving their infrastructure and making road quality suck less, but adopting better standards. All states should adopt 6 inch markings and RRPMs, even on two lane roads and surface roads, ditch paint for any and all uses, etc. The FHWA should push for this as hard as they pushed FDOT to ditch colored US shields.
To avoid ripping up pavement reflectors in areas of California where they have to plow, they carve depressions into the asphalt and put the reflectors in there.
(https://i.imgur.com/o4Oeq7o.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on March 27, 2021, 01:34:09 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 27, 2021, 01:34:09 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 26, 2021, 10:50:26 PMQuote from: OCGuy81 on March 26, 2021, 09:42:49 PM
Google and Apple maps need to show county lines.
At minimum with what they have they need to stop making them disappear at a zoom level that makes it useless to figure out what you're looking for. If you google Joseph Pioneer Dude County and you want to see if SR-666 clips 1/5 mile of a county corner, you can't zoom in far enough to tell before the map removes it from display.
https://openstreetmap.org
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: index on March 27, 2021, 02:20:41 AM
Post by: index on March 27, 2021, 02:20:41 AM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on March 27, 2021, 12:51:49 AMThat, and snow plow-able RRPMs exist too. They're all over the place here in the Charlotte area. Though I question the need for them considering we never get enough snow to warrant plows. I've even seen the depressions for them on GSV in South Carolina of all places...Why on earth would they need them there? My guess is it's a contractor error and said contractor is from a snowier area that uses them.Quote from: vdeane on March 26, 2021, 10:15:35 PMQuote from: index on March 26, 2021, 04:27:01 PMWhile those RRPMs are quite nice in the areas that have them, this post makes me think you've never lived in an area that experiences real winter. They'd get ripped up by plows real quick.
Most state DOTs are horrible and really need to invest not only in improving their infrastructure and making road quality suck less, but adopting better standards. All states should adopt 6 inch markings and RRPMs, even on two lane roads and surface roads, ditch paint for any and all uses, etc. The FHWA should push for this as hard as they pushed FDOT to ditch colored US shields.
To avoid ripping up pavement reflectors in areas of California where they have to plow, they carve depressions into the asphalt and put the reflectors in there.
(https://i.imgur.com/o4Oeq7o.jpg)
(https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/572710F/3m-snowplowable-pavement-raised-markers-190-family.jpg)(https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/61295F/pavement-marking-190-rpm-01.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: GaryV on March 27, 2021, 07:39:36 AM
Post by: GaryV on March 27, 2021, 07:39:36 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 07:50:07 PMQuote from: I-55 on March 26, 2021, 07:47:03 PMQuote from: andrepoiy on March 26, 2021, 07:42:46 PM
I am not a fan of protected left turns - sometimes sitting behind that light takes way too long.
What's more annoying is a flashing yellow arrow light that never gives you a flashing arrow (unless its between midnight and 6 AM).
What's more annoying is a flashing yellow arrow light that only gives you a flashing arrow, while the entire population of the county is driving by in the other direction, so only one person actually gets to go on each cycle.
SE Mich drivers have that figured out - 3 more cars follow through on the red.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Big John on March 27, 2021, 01:33:49 PM
Post by: Big John on March 27, 2021, 01:33:49 PM
Quote from: index on March 27, 2021, 02:20:41 AMWisconsin used them but they didn't work as expected so the DOT took them out.
That, and snow plow-able RRPMs exist too. They're all over the place here in the Charlotte area. Though I question the need for them considering we never get enough snow to warrant plows. I've even seen the depressions for them on GSV in South Carolina of all places...Why on earth would they need them there? My guess is it's a contractor error and said contractor is from a snowier area that uses them.
(https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/572710F/3m-snowplowable-pavement-raised-markers-190-family.jpg)(https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/61295F/pavement-marking-190-rpm-01.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on March 27, 2021, 02:25:19 PM
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on March 27, 2021, 02:25:19 PM
Quote from: GaryV on March 27, 2021, 07:39:36 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 07:50:07 PMQuote from: I-55 on March 26, 2021, 07:47:03 PMQuote from: andrepoiy on March 26, 2021, 07:42:46 PM
I am not a fan of protected left turns - sometimes sitting behind that light takes way too long.
What's more annoying is a flashing yellow arrow light that never gives you a flashing arrow (unless its between midnight and 6 AM).
What's more annoying is a flashing yellow arrow light that only gives you a flashing arrow, while the entire population of the county is driving by in the other direction, so only one person actually gets to go on each cycle.
SE Mich drivers have that figured out - 3 more cars follow through on the red.
Which in turn depending on the cycle order then annoys those of us with a fresh green who have to wait for dicks to finish their red light running.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 27, 2021, 04:21:17 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 27, 2021, 04:21:17 PM
While we're on the topic of traffic lights: It surprises me how few American drivers know that if the other side is backed up and you can't clear the intersection, you have to stop and wait, even on a green light. So many people just block the intersection because "green means go" and they'd rather worsen a traffic jam and possibly cause gridlock than follow the law.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Big John on March 27, 2021, 04:36:01 PM
Post by: Big John on March 27, 2021, 04:36:01 PM
I think all-black backplates (without a thick yellow border) are ugly. I concede that they may be necessary on overhead primary signals on high-speed roadways but not on secondary signals. I dislike state highway departments who require backplates on every signal head.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ben114 on March 27, 2021, 06:00:05 PM
Post by: Ben114 on March 27, 2021, 06:00:05 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 27, 2021, 04:21:17 PM
While we’re on the topic of traffic lights: It surprises me how few American drivers know that if the other side is backed up and you can’t clear the intersection, you have to stop and wait, even on a green light. So many people just block the intersection because “green means go” and they’d rather worsen a traffic jam and possibly cause gridlock than follow the law.
Reminds me of this pair of lights (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2964519,-71.7149517,148m/data=!3m1!1e3) in Shrewsbury, MA, where in the afternoon traffic stops right in the middle of the western intersection due to the light at the eastern intersection being red. It's quite common to stop through an entire green at the west intersection if coming from the west due to this.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on March 27, 2021, 06:07:35 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 27, 2021, 06:07:35 PM
Quote from: Big John on March 27, 2021, 04:36:01 PM
I think all-black backplates (without a thick yellow border) are ugly. I concede that they may be necessary on overhead primary signals on high-speed roadways but not on secondary signals. I dislike state highway departments who require backplates on every signal head.
Growing up and doing most of my traveling in states where backplates are uniformly present, it bothers me when I see a light without a backplate. It just looks naked.
I think the yellow border only looks good if the signal body itself is black. In Oklahoma City, which has long used the distinctive look of a yellow signal body with black backplate, the ODOT installations include the yellow border, so you have a yellow-black-yellow color scheme, which just looks weird.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: andrepoiy on March 27, 2021, 06:27:24 PM
Post by: andrepoiy on March 27, 2021, 06:27:24 PM
I agree with above^,
Having no backplate is strange, the signal looks like a skeleton.
Also, backplates in my area have a reflective strip along the outside of it, which I guess helps with locating the actual signal head. Perhaps helps those who are red-green colourblind to figure out which light is on from afar.
Having no backplate is strange, the signal looks like a skeleton.
Also, backplates in my area have a reflective strip along the outside of it, which I guess helps with locating the actual signal head. Perhaps helps those who are red-green colourblind to figure out which light is on from afar.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 27, 2021, 08:01:44 PM
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 27, 2021, 08:01:44 PM
The north and west legs of KC's Alphabet Loop should not exist.
And for that matter, 470/291/152 is a more logical loop than is 435. 49/29 could just take that over.
And for that matter, 470/291/152 is a more logical loop than is 435. 49/29 could just take that over.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CoreySamson on March 27, 2021, 09:26:43 PM
Post by: CoreySamson on March 27, 2021, 09:26:43 PM
- Horizontal signals are more appealing than vertical ones.
- I think distance signs with 3 or even 4 destinations should be more popular.
- Baton Rouge is more deserving of a new river bridge than Memphis.
- I think distance signs with 3 or even 4 destinations should be more popular.
- Baton Rouge is more deserving of a new river bridge than Memphis.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: roadman65 on March 27, 2021, 09:47:34 PM
Post by: roadman65 on March 27, 2021, 09:47:34 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 27, 2021, 04:21:17 PM
While we're on the topic of traffic lights: It surprises me how few American drivers know that if the other side is backed up and you can't clear the intersection, you have to stop and wait, even on a green light. So many people just block the intersection because "green means go" and they'd rather worsen a traffic jam and possibly cause gridlock than follow the law.
New York City the worst.
Jersey City at the Holland Tunnel has to use cops to prevent gridlock during morning rush. They used to turn the signals to flash mode from 6 am to 9 am and the officer directed traffic with his hands.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hbelkins on March 27, 2021, 10:20:50 PM
Post by: hbelkins on March 27, 2021, 10:20:50 PM
I don't hate Clearview.
I acknowledge that Breezewood is a pain and should be fixed, but I don't hate it to the point that I don't patronize any of the businesses there.
The gas tax should not be increased.
I acknowledge that Breezewood is a pain and should be fixed, but I don't hate it to the point that I don't patronize any of the businesses there.
The gas tax should not be increased.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on March 27, 2021, 10:44:20 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on March 27, 2021, 10:44:20 PM
Interstate shields without state names are better than those with.
State shape-outline shields are bad.
There are no boring roads, at lease with respect to scenery and being “worth it” to drive on.
That said, two-lane roads are annoying if, for whatever reason, you have to wait more than a minute or so to pass.
Complex urban freeways are good, when traffic is flowing.
When the car in front of you turns or exits at the same place as you is bad.
Most control cities are too small or otherwise insufficiently well known.
Control states are fine, at least under certain conditions.
Higher digits should be used more often in 3di’s, especially to reduce repetition. For example, there are eight 295’s, but only one 895.
You should not be able to turn at a red arrow.
Google Maps needs a legend, somewhere.
Adaptive cruise control is bad, unless there’s some way to keep it from following my rear bumper for twenty or so miles.
Some of the ways exits are laid out along or near frontage roads in Texas are bad.
Tolled routes and crossings are bad.
Listening to music while driving is bad.
Cable-stayed bridges are okay.
Rural illuminated highways are bad.
Front license plates are good. Or at least, the aesthetic impact of the plate is an insufficient justification for its absence.
Speed cameras on freeways are bad.
Red light cameras, however, aren’t inherently bad, but you should get about a second of leeway after the light turns red, to make up for any edge cases.
When turning onto a road with more than one lane, you can turn into whatever lane you want.
Exit Only indications are not needed on APL signs.
State shape-outline shields are bad.
There are no boring roads, at lease with respect to scenery and being “worth it” to drive on.
That said, two-lane roads are annoying if, for whatever reason, you have to wait more than a minute or so to pass.
Complex urban freeways are good, when traffic is flowing.
When the car in front of you turns or exits at the same place as you is bad.
Most control cities are too small or otherwise insufficiently well known.
Control states are fine, at least under certain conditions.
Higher digits should be used more often in 3di’s, especially to reduce repetition. For example, there are eight 295’s, but only one 895.
You should not be able to turn at a red arrow.
Google Maps needs a legend, somewhere.
Adaptive cruise control is bad, unless there’s some way to keep it from following my rear bumper for twenty or so miles.
Some of the ways exits are laid out along or near frontage roads in Texas are bad.
Tolled routes and crossings are bad.
Listening to music while driving is bad.
Cable-stayed bridges are okay.
Rural illuminated highways are bad.
Front license plates are good. Or at least, the aesthetic impact of the plate is an insufficient justification for its absence.
Speed cameras on freeways are bad.
Red light cameras, however, aren’t inherently bad, but you should get about a second of leeway after the light turns red, to make up for any edge cases.
When turning onto a road with more than one lane, you can turn into whatever lane you want.
Exit Only indications are not needed on APL signs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: US 89 on March 27, 2021, 11:47:09 PM
Post by: US 89 on March 27, 2021, 11:47:09 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 27, 2021, 01:34:09 AMQuote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 26, 2021, 10:50:26 PMQuote from: OCGuy81 on March 26, 2021, 09:42:49 PM
Google and Apple maps need to show county lines.
At minimum with what they have they need to stop making them disappear at a zoom level that makes it useless to figure out what you're looking for. If you google Joseph Pioneer Dude County and you want to see if SR-666 clips 1/5 mile of a county corner, you can't zoom in far enough to tell before the map removes it from display.
https://openstreetmap.org
As I've mentioned a few times on this forum before, OSM's county lines are not necessarily accurate. They are usually rather rough approximations that may not give you enough granularity to conclusively determine whether x highway passes through y county.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on March 28, 2021, 12:02:18 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 28, 2021, 12:02:18 AM
Quote from: US 89 on March 27, 2021, 11:47:09 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 27, 2021, 01:34:09 AMQuote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 26, 2021, 10:50:26 PMQuote from: OCGuy81 on March 26, 2021, 09:42:49 PM
Google and Apple maps need to show county lines.
At minimum with what they have they need to stop making them disappear at a zoom level that makes it useless to figure out what you're looking for. If you google Joseph Pioneer Dude County and you want to see if SR-666 clips 1/5 mile of a county corner, you can't zoom in far enough to tell before the map removes it from display.
https://openstreetmap.org
As I've mentioned a few times on this forum before, OSM's county lines are not necessarily accurate. They are usually rather rough approximations that may not give you enough granularity to conclusively determine whether x highway passes through y county.
They are at least usable approximations, though. At the zoom levels that you need for that, Google isn't even going to display the county lines.
If you really care about that level of accuracy on your county clinching, you're going to need GIS shapefiles from the state DOT, or to look at the county assessor's website and see exactly where the highway ROW is. Most situations are cut and dried enough that OSM gets the job done.
Maybe we should start a thread for OSM goofs, since I have a feeling it would go the way that threads about Wikipedia goofs tend to go–someone from the wiki starts stalking the thread and silently fixing all the goofs that are pointed out.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on March 28, 2021, 12:03:05 AM
Post by: vdeane on March 28, 2021, 12:03:05 AM
I usually just use mob-rule's overlay onto Google/OSM for that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 12:06:07 AM
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 12:06:07 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 28, 2021, 12:02:18 AMQuote from: US 89 on March 27, 2021, 11:47:09 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 27, 2021, 01:34:09 AMQuote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 26, 2021, 10:50:26 PMQuote from: OCGuy81 on March 26, 2021, 09:42:49 PM
Google and Apple maps need to show county lines.
At minimum with what they have they need to stop making them disappear at a zoom level that makes it useless to figure out what you're looking for. If you google Joseph Pioneer Dude County and you want to see if SR-666 clips 1/5 mile of a county corner, you can't zoom in far enough to tell before the map removes it from display.
https://openstreetmap.org (https://openstreetmap.org)
As I've mentioned a few times on this forum before, OSM's county lines are not necessarily accurate. They are usually rather rough approximations that may not give you enough granularity to conclusively determine whether x highway passes through y county.
They are at least usable approximations, though. At the zoom levels that you need for that, Google isn't even going to display the county lines.
If you really care about that level of accuracy on your county clinching, you're going to need GIS shapefiles from the state DOT, or to look at the county assessor's website and see exactly where the highway ROW is. Most situations are cut and dried enough that OSM gets the job done.
Maybe we should start a thread for OSM goofs, since I have a feeling it would go the way that threads about Wikipedia goofs tend to go–someone from the wiki starts stalking the thread and silently fixing all the goofs that are pointed out.
I've fixed some OSM goofs. Like a few dated intersections and such.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on March 28, 2021, 12:19:30 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 28, 2021, 12:19:30 AM
I've added some newly constructed roads (collected GPS data by riding a bike through a new neighborhood in Norman once, and paced off the county road a friend's new house was built on) and fixed some incorrect street names, but messing around with county lines is a bit beyond my comfort level since there's no physical feature to compare against, usually.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: NoGoodNamesAvailable on March 28, 2021, 01:57:25 AM
Post by: NoGoodNamesAvailable on March 28, 2021, 01:57:25 AM
Quote from: vdeane on March 26, 2021, 10:15:35 PMOn recently repaved interstates in NY I've been seeing recessed grooves where they put the pavement markings. I'm not sure what sort of material the markings are made out of exactly but it is very legible at night and probably on par with RRPMs. However I haven't seen this on any conventional roads and I imagine it's more expensive.Quote from: index on March 26, 2021, 04:27:01 PMWhile those RRPMs are quite nice in the areas that have them, this post makes me think you've never lived in an area that experiences real winter. They'd get ripped up by plows real quick.
Most state DOTs are horrible and really need to invest not only in improving their infrastructure and making road quality suck less, but adopting better standards. All states should adopt 6 inch markings and RRPMs, even on two lane roads and surface roads, ditch paint for any and all uses, etc. The FHWA should push for this as hard as they pushed FDOT to ditch colored US shields.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Frafra Zoomer on March 28, 2021, 02:04:07 AM
Post by: Frafra Zoomer on March 28, 2021, 02:04:07 AM
Quote from: TEG24601 on March 26, 2021, 03:17:54 PMWait until you find out about Keep Right Except to Pass
There is nothing wrong with left entrances or exits, under any circumstance... except when there is a lot of traffic that wants to go from a right-hand onramp to the left off-ramp, or left on-ramp to right off-ramp in a short distance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Frafra Zoomer on March 28, 2021, 02:06:43 AM
Post by: Frafra Zoomer on March 28, 2021, 02:06:43 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 26, 2021, 03:52:39 PMI mostly agree with this (except the one about lane changes in incompatible with no speed limit)
Some of mine:
-Undivided two lane roads with a speed limit of over 45 MPH are inherently dangerous.
-Eight-inch signal lights should be banned.
-There should be certain stretches of interstate that have no speed limit and only an advisory speed (okay, maybe not unpopular)
-Clearview is a tragic mistake. Not just a preference.
-Pavement arrows should be used next to ONE WAY signs and anywhere where the flow of traffic isn't very apparent
-If you're speeding 20+ over in the lane next to me, behind me, and I change lanes into you with a signal, you should hold the majority of the liability for any collision.
-A single center yellow line is acceptable for low-speed non-freeway roads with one lane in each direction.
-Roundabouts and four-way stops, if you know what you're doing and where you're going, AREN'T THAT BAD.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 02:20:54 AM
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 02:20:54 AM
Quote from: Frafra Zoomer on March 28, 2021, 02:06:43 AM
I mostly agree with this (except the one about lane changes in incompatible with no speed limit)
Well for the lane change one I did say "if you're speeding 20+ over" . So if there's no speed limit to exceed, then obviously it doesn't apply.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Frafra Zoomer on March 28, 2021, 02:21:34 AM
Post by: Frafra Zoomer on March 28, 2021, 02:21:34 AM
Quote from: stridentweasel on March 26, 2021, 05:37:09 PM
Interesting. I could get behind upgrading them with Jesery barriers and a passing lane every 10 miles or less. Still, I think it's unrealistic to expect major upgrades of most two-lane highways. FWIW, two-lane, undivided highways go up to 75 MPH in Texas: https://goo.gl/maps/xC6HcTGaVHTfon4R9
Is Texas trying to get people killed??? A 150 mph speed differential between adjacent lanes is not safe at all.
Even on four lane divided rural highways in California, the maximum speed limit is only ever 70 mph. They really love speed in Texas
The Dutch have found that it's not safe to have speeds above 40 mph on undivided roads
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 02:26:31 AM
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 02:26:31 AM
Quote from: Frafra Zoomer on March 28, 2021, 02:21:34 AMQuote from: stridentweasel on March 26, 2021, 05:37:09 PM
Interesting. I could get behind upgrading them with Jesery barriers and a passing lane every 10 miles or less. Still, I think it's unrealistic to expect major upgrades of most two-lane highways. FWIW, two-lane, undivided highways go up to 75 MPH in Texas: https://goo.gl/maps/xC6HcTGaVHTfon4R9
Is Texas trying to get people killed??? A 150 mph speed differential between adjacent lanes is not safe at all.
Even on four lane divided rural highways in California, the maximum speed limit is only ever 70 mph. They really love speed in Texas
The Dutch have found that it's not safe to have speeds above 40 mph on undivided roads
Well, would you look at that! Finally someone who agrees with my doubts about the safety of higher-speed undivided roads. Nice to hear.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on March 28, 2021, 03:12:55 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 28, 2021, 03:12:55 AM
Quote from: Frafra Zoomer on March 28, 2021, 02:21:34 AM
Is Texas trying to get people killed???
guessing you've never been to Texas if you need to ask this
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: sprjus4 on March 28, 2021, 11:15:06 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on March 28, 2021, 11:15:06 AM
I'd kill myself trying to drive 45 mph on a rural highway in Texas.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: oscar on March 28, 2021, 11:55:58 AM
Post by: oscar on March 28, 2021, 11:55:58 AM
Quote from: Frafra Zoomer on March 28, 2021, 02:21:34 AM
Is Texas trying to get people killed??? A 150 mph speed differential between adjacent lanes is not safe at all.
Even on four lane divided rural highways in California, the maximum speed limit is only ever 70 mph. They really love speed in Texas
The Dutch have found that it's not safe to have speeds above 40 mph on undivided roads
It helps that Texas two-lane primary rural highways with 75mph limits (not farm-to-market secondary roads, often with lower limits) tend to have wide paved shoulders. Drivers uncomfortable with a 150mph (or more) speed differential with opposing traffic can move over onto the shoulder as needed. Shoulder use is also customary for slower drivers (yep, Texas has some of those) to help overtaking traffic pass them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Flint1979 on March 28, 2021, 12:05:31 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on March 28, 2021, 12:05:31 PM
Quote from: Frafra Zoomer on March 28, 2021, 02:21:34 AMI think you'd have a better chance at getting killed going a lower speed limit on a rural highway in Texas. Texas has a very, very, very low population density outside of it's mega cities. Michigan has speed limits of 65 mph on the same type of highways in low densely populated parts of the state, the northern Lower Peninsula and almost all of M-28 and other highways in the U.P. are 65 mph.Quote from: stridentweasel on March 26, 2021, 05:37:09 PM
Interesting. I could get behind upgrading them with Jesery barriers and a passing lane every 10 miles or less. Still, I think it's unrealistic to expect major upgrades of most two-lane highways. FWIW, two-lane, undivided highways go up to 75 MPH in Texas: https://goo.gl/maps/xC6HcTGaVHTfon4R9
Is Texas trying to get people killed??? A 150 mph speed differential between adjacent lanes is not safe at all.
Even on four lane divided rural highways in California, the maximum speed limit is only ever 70 mph. They really love speed in Texas
The Dutch have found that it's not safe to have speeds above 40 mph on undivided roads
I-69, I-75, US-127, US-131 and US-10 all have speed limits of 75 mph in the least densely populated part of the state although I-69 between Flint and Lansing is 75 mph as well in a more highly traveled part of the state than the rest of the 75 mph freeways. Heck the population center of Michigan is right outside of Morrice which I-69 passes halfway between Flint and Lansing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Gnutella on March 28, 2021, 02:00:09 PM
Post by: Gnutella on March 28, 2021, 02:00:09 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on March 26, 2021, 03:35:54 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 26, 2021, 03:07:59 PM
My unpopular opinion, at least among members of this forum: I prefer Clearview signs to Highway Gothic.
(Reason for that: I find them easier to read from a distance, especially at night.)
When it's done right (i.e. Clearview only for the control cities & Highway Gothic everywhere else) I also really like Clearview - here's a VDOT example (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.652355,-77.4233541,3a,75y,288.26h,86.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9AvFz5la_P6D2caCE8uB7A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en) I find snazzy. It's the Clearview-overload signs I despise (such as this PennDOT montrosity (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1805477,-80.1688937,3a,75y,11.32h,85.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sy4bVl6mqZbDJoUqv9p03Bw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)).
That's PennDOT District 1 for you. They're the absolute worst in the Commonwealth when it comes to making pattern-accurate signs. Districts 5 and 9 are shitty too. Districts 2, 3, 6, 8 and 11 are much better at it. Districts 4, 10 and 12 are inconsistent.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Gnutella on March 28, 2021, 02:05:13 PM
Post by: Gnutella on March 28, 2021, 02:05:13 PM
Quote from: Frafra Zoomer on March 28, 2021, 02:21:34 AMQuote from: stridentweasel on March 26, 2021, 05:37:09 PM
Interesting. I could get behind upgrading them with Jesery barriers and a passing lane every 10 miles or less. Still, I think it's unrealistic to expect major upgrades of most two-lane highways. FWIW, two-lane, undivided highways go up to 75 MPH in Texas: https://goo.gl/maps/xC6HcTGaVHTfon4R9
Is Texas trying to get people killed??? A 150 mph speed differential between adjacent lanes is not safe at all.
Even on four lane divided rural highways in California, the maximum speed limit is only ever 70 mph. They really love speed in Texas
The Dutch have found that it's not safe to have speeds above 40 mph on undivided roads
There's so little traffic on those 75-MPH undivided highways that the higher speed differential isn't as much of a concern. If traffic increases on them, then I'm sure that either the speed limits will be lowered or the highway will be upgraded to four lanes divided.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: sprjus4 on March 28, 2021, 02:06:40 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on March 28, 2021, 02:06:40 PM
If anything, Texas has and still is raising many 70 mph zones to 75 mph as traffic engineering studies are complete.
A lot of 75 mph roads have wide shoulders as mentioned, though many 70 mph and even some 75 mph have narrow to no shoulders.
A lot of 75 mph roads have wide shoulders as mentioned, though many 70 mph and even some 75 mph have narrow to no shoulders.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 02:35:21 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 02:35:21 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on March 26, 2021, 03:35:54 PM
this PennDOT montrosity (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1805477,-80.1688937,3a,75y,11.32h,85.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sy4bVl6mqZbDJoUqv9p03Bw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
Why did they use a full overhead gantry for that? Seems like they could have just used a right-side-only mount.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on March 28, 2021, 02:44:51 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on March 28, 2021, 02:44:51 PM
I don't care about sign fonts
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 02:46:42 PM
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 02:46:42 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 28, 2021, 02:44:51 PM
I don't care about sign fonts
Me neither.
US 6 should still end in Erie. Either that or 6N should become a state route of some kind.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 03:03:41 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 03:03:41 PM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 02:46:42 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on March 28, 2021, 02:44:51 PMMe neither.
I don't care about sign fonts
So if DOTs start using Comic Sans on highway signs, you're cool with it?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 03:04:56 PM
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 03:04:56 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 03:03:41 PMI'm pretty sure some state DOT is doing it as an April Fools' prank.Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 02:46:42 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on March 28, 2021, 02:44:51 PMMe neither.
I don't care about sign fonts
So if DOTs start using Comic Sans on highway signs, you're cool with it?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: 1995hoo on March 28, 2021, 03:56:35 PM
Post by: 1995hoo on March 28, 2021, 03:56:35 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 03:03:41 PMQuote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 02:46:42 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on March 28, 2021, 02:44:51 PMMe neither.
I don't care about sign fonts
So if DOTs start using Comic Sans on highway signs, you're cool with it?
Heh. For a better example, see the two sign photos on this page (https://typographyforlawyers.com/what-is-typography.html).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 04:02:55 PM
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 04:02:55 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 28, 2021, 03:56:35 PMQuote from: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 03:03:41 PMQuote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 02:46:42 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on March 28, 2021, 02:44:51 PMMe neither.
I don't care about sign fonts
So if DOTs start using Comic Sans on highway signs, you're cool with it?
Heh. For a better example, see the two sign photos on this page (https://typographyforlawyers.com/what-is-typography.html).
Revision:
Any bold sans-serif font that is legible will work on a road sign.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on March 28, 2021, 04:25:02 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 28, 2021, 04:25:02 PM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 04:02:55 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 28, 2021, 03:56:35 PMQuote from: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 03:03:41 PMQuote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 02:46:42 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on March 28, 2021, 02:44:51 PMMe neither.
I don't care about sign fonts
So if DOTs start using Comic Sans on highway signs, you're cool with it?
Heh. For a better example, see the two sign photos on this page (https://typographyforlawyers.com/what-is-typography.html).
Revision:
Any bold sans-serif font that is legible will work on a road sign.
Except it won't–legibility is not a value that is either 0 or 1, at least not for road signs. Engineers have conducted studies to prove that different typefaces have different degrees of legibility. Say you have one typeface that can be read from 100 ft away, while another can be read from 75 ft away. They're both technically "legible"–you can read them both–but one can be more easily read from further away, and that means it is more legible. On a road, since you are moving, that means the driver has extra time to read and react to the message. This difference can be safety-critical.
So the statement "any bold sans-serif font that is legible will work on a road sign" isn't an opinion you can have, it's a statement that is simply wrong.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Big John on March 28, 2021, 04:30:52 PM
Post by: Big John on March 28, 2021, 04:30:52 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 28, 2021, 03:56:35 PMDoes it matter that the fancy font is all mixed case while the Highway Gothic sign is upper case in the exit tab and the distance line?
Heh. For a better example, see the two sign photos on this page (https://typographyforlawyers.com/what-is-typography.html).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on March 28, 2021, 04:34:39 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 28, 2021, 04:34:39 PM
Quote from: Big John on March 28, 2021, 04:30:52 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 28, 2021, 03:56:35 PMDoes it matter that the fancy font is all mixed case while the Highway Gothic sign is upper case in the exit tab and the distance line?
Heh. For a better example, see the two sign photos on this page (https://typographyforlawyers.com/what-is-typography.html).
I'm guessing they did that because cursive fonts are close to unreadable in all-caps.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Dirt Roads on March 28, 2021, 04:57:24 PM
Post by: Dirt Roads on March 28, 2021, 04:57:24 PM
Quote from: Frafra Zoomer on March 28, 2021, 02:21:34 AM
Is Texas trying to get people killed??? A 150 mph speed differential between adjacent lanes is not safe at all.
Even on four lane divided rural highways in California, the maximum speed limit is only ever 70 mph. They really love speed in Texas
The Dutch have found that it's not safe to have speeds above 40 mph on undivided roads
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 28, 2021, 12:05:31 PM
I think you'd have a better chance at getting killed going a lower speed limit on a rural highway in Texas. Texas has a very, very, very low population density outside of it's mega cities. Michigan has speed limits of 65 mph on the same type of highways in low densely populated parts of the state, the northern Lower Peninsula and almost all of M-28 and other highways in the U.P. are 65 mph.
Indeed, Michigan. I remember a canoe trip to Michigan, somewhere west of Cadillac back in the mid-1980s. Can't remember where, but there was a 20+ mile stretch of wide, straight dirt road. At first, I was surprised to find a 55MPH speed limit sign. Next, I was getting passed every few minutes. Soon, I was holding up traffic as the oncoming traffic was too dense. Next thing I know, I'm driving about 70MPH on a dirt road with the T-tops down and most of the traffic was passing me in excess of 80MPH. I'm sure that car still has plenty of Michigan dirt drilled into the upholstery.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 28, 2021, 06:44:27 PM
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 28, 2021, 06:44:27 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 02:35:21 PMQuote from: jmacswimmer on March 26, 2021, 03:35:54 PM
this PennDOT montrosity (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1805477,-80.1688937,3a,75y,11.32h,85.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sy4bVl6mqZbDJoUqv9p03Bw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
Why did they use a full overhead gantry for that? Seems like they could have just used a right-side-only mount.
Seeing the age of that gantry...different era, different signing standards.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on March 28, 2021, 07:29:15 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on March 28, 2021, 07:29:15 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 02:35:21 PMThere's more examples in the "Strange Overhead Signs" thread. Some from there:Quote from: jmacswimmer on March 26, 2021, 03:35:54 PM
this PennDOT montrosity (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1805477,-80.1688937,3a,75y,11.32h,85.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sy4bVl6mqZbDJoUqv9p03Bw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
Why did they use a full overhead gantry for that? Seems like they could have just used a right-side-only mount.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 11:45:34 PMQuote from: SkyPesos on March 18, 2021, 11:17:47 PMQuote from: tolbs17 on March 18, 2021, 09:25:26 PMODOT (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.286712,-84.324349,3a,79.7y,40.69h,89.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slGKWKxAhJgD8fBPKUh7Q9Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)is so (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1921004,-84.3870678,3a,26y,43.05h,92.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXIWia2KDGiuyEqh5RpSc9Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) good at (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1712137,-84.4031407,3a,59.2y,243.64h,88.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1YMVDgvuaehOBXhrnATzWQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) doing (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1437118,-84.4743218,3a,75y,278.86h,85.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sj7ZGFqJdscjhxcbPmuu5JQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) that (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3209523,-84.2883361,3a,74.9y,20.65h,90.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szHfkNEjyIcg0o5KOwDURZg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
This (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.5831848,-80.5513805,3a,67.8y,225.34h,98.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slnjyzTJe-roByrwrXQPDUA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) one looks like they wasted money on using a full gantry to just hang one sign on that.
Your ODOT needs to get on (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.5708641,-97.5140158,3a,75y,179.06h,83.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPvZ2X8sSHCffnRv5WmrcsQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) my ODOT's (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.5860981,-97.513599,3a,60y,196.81h,84.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUEyfMl0QhRXQEsQ1V4F0oQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) level (http://www.okhighways.com/041103/us77sgantry.JPG).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 08:15:38 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 08:15:38 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 28, 2021, 03:56:35 PM
Heh. For a better example, see the two sign photos on this page (https://typographyforlawyers.com/what-is-typography.html).
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 28, 2021, 04:34:39 PM
I'm guessing they did that because cursive fonts are close to unreadable in all-caps.
Our worst nightmare :evilgrin:
(https://i.ibb.co/8bnFMh8/Exit-198-A.png) (https://ibb.co/7Qx7v9y)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: RobbieL2415 on March 29, 2021, 07:44:38 AM
Post by: RobbieL2415 on March 29, 2021, 07:44:38 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 27, 2021, 04:21:17 PMThis is actually not illegal in my state. For it to be illegal, the intersection must be painted in a crisscross pattern and be signposted, "Do Not Block Intersection."
While we're on the topic of traffic lights: It surprises me how few American drivers know that if the other side is backed up and you can't clear the intersection, you have to stop and wait, even on a green light. So many people just block the intersection because "green means go" and they'd rather worsen a traffic jam and possibly cause gridlock than follow the law.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: texaskdog on March 29, 2021, 07:48:40 AM
Post by: texaskdog on March 29, 2021, 07:48:40 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 27, 2021, 04:21:17 PM
While we’re on the topic of traffic lights: It surprises me how few American drivers know that if the other side is backed up and you can’t clear the intersection, you have to stop and wait, even on a green light. So many people just block the intersection because “green means go” and they’d rather worsen a traffic jam and possibly cause gridlock than follow the law.
no way. at some lights you'd never get to go otherwise. Go into the intersection.
Ever drive in Alaska? if the light is yellow, you go or get run over. You only stop on red. Makes a lot of sense really.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: texaskdog on March 29, 2021, 07:50:30 AM
Post by: texaskdog on March 29, 2021, 07:50:30 AM
Quote from: Frafra Zoomer on March 28, 2021, 02:21:34 AMQuote from: stridentweasel on March 26, 2021, 05:37:09 PM
Interesting. I could get behind upgrading them with Jesery barriers and a passing lane every 10 miles or less. Still, I think it's unrealistic to expect major upgrades of most two-lane highways. FWIW, two-lane, undivided highways go up to 75 MPH in Texas: https://goo.gl/maps/xC6HcTGaVHTfon4R9
Is Texas trying to get people killed??? A 150 mph speed differential between adjacent lanes is not safe at all.
Even on four lane divided rural highways in California, the maximum speed limit is only ever 70 mph. They really love speed in Texas
The Dutch have found that it's not safe to have speeds above 40 mph on undivided roads
Ever been to the remote parts of Texas?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on March 29, 2021, 07:58:59 AM
Post by: formulanone on March 29, 2021, 07:58:59 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 28, 2021, 04:25:02 PMQuote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 04:02:55 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 28, 2021, 03:56:35 PMQuote from: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 03:03:41 PMQuote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 02:46:42 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on March 28, 2021, 02:44:51 PMMe neither.
I don't care about sign fonts
So if DOTs start using Comic Sans on highway signs, you're cool with it?
Heh. For a better example, see the two sign photos on this page (https://typographyforlawyers.com/what-is-typography.html).
Revision:
Any bold sans-serif font that is legible will work on a road sign.
Except it won't—legibility is not a value that is either 0 or 1, at least not for road signs. Engineers have conducted studies to prove that different typefaces have different degrees of legibility. Say you have one typeface that can be read from 100 ft away, while another can be read from 75 ft away. They're both technically "legible"—you can read them both—but one can be more easily read from further away, and that means it is more legible. On a road, since you are moving, that means the driver has extra time to read and react to the message. This difference can be safety-critical.
So the statement "any bold sans-serif font that is legible will work on a road sign" isn't an opinion you can have, it's a statement that is simply wrong.
Sure it is; its an opinion. It's just that Arial, Helvetica, Transport, DIN Mittleschrift, and Clarendon haven't been tested side-by-side against Highway Gothic/Clearview to prove they're ineffective by any substantial degree. To several roadfans and roadgeeks, the difference in usage may as well be Comic Sans or Papyrus (admittedly terrible choices for something conveying important information with regards to safety).
That's what's irksome about some hobbies; those that demand precision can sometimes be so arbitrarily tribal about why they don't like something, rather than using that same level of precision in word choice to explain it.
There's also an expectation difference between a few signs in a shopping center or city park which usually suffer few readability issues at 15-30 miles an hour, rendered in a basic non-standard font; rather than the importance of a guide sign font for those travelers moving at 50-75 miles an hour.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on March 29, 2021, 08:05:12 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on March 29, 2021, 08:05:12 AM
For those interested in which other fonts are used on road signs around the world, I found this wikipedia list. Arial is one of them btw.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_public_signage_typefaces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_public_signage_typefaces)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_public_signage_typefaces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_public_signage_typefaces)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 29, 2021, 12:12:06 PM
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 29, 2021, 12:12:06 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on March 29, 2021, 07:48:40 AM
no way. at some lights you'd never get to go otherwise. Go into the intersection.
That's a good way to get a ticket if the light turns red and you get stuck there. And if you don't get a ticket, that's a good way to block traffic and look like someone who doesn't know how to drive.
Quote
Ever drive in Alaska? if the light is yellow, you go or get run over. You only stop on red. Makes a lot of sense really.
Ever drive in NYC? If the light is green and you can't get across the intersection because traffic is backed up, but you enter the intersection anyway, and then you're just sitting there blocking the intersection when the other street has the green light, then you're that annoying tourist driver everyone hates. Makes a lot of sense really.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
So many unpopular opinions, where to even start?
- Speed limits need to be abolished for most highways outside of urban areas and replaced with a German style "Keep Right Except to Pass" requirement
- The US Numbered Highways need to comprehensively renumbered into a real grid with as many Banner routes as possible
- We need a real I-99 that is east of I-95. Something that uses a combination of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel and the proposed crossings of Long Island Sound, New York Harbor, and the Delaware Bay
- The original planned interstates in Baltimore, DC, New York, etc. need to be constructed
- SUVs need to be banned for on road use
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 29, 2021, 01:24:26 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 29, 2021, 01:24:26 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
- SUVs need to be banned for on road use
:rolleyes: How do you get them to wherever you think they should be used?
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: texaskdog on March 29, 2021, 01:29:16 PM
Post by: texaskdog on March 29, 2021, 01:29:16 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on March 29, 2021, 12:12:06 PMQuote from: texaskdog on March 29, 2021, 07:48:40 AM
no way. at some lights you'd never get to go otherwise. Go into the intersection.
That's a good way to get a ticket if the light turns red and you get stuck there. And if you don't get a ticket, that's a good way to block traffic and look like someone who doesn't know how to drive.Quote
Ever drive in Alaska? if the light is yellow, you go or get run over. You only stop on red. Makes a lot of sense really.
Ever drive in NYC? If the light is green and you can't get across the intersection because traffic is backed up, but you enter the intersection anyway, and then you're just sitting there blocking the intersection when the other street has the green light, then you're that annoying tourist driver everyone hates. Makes a lot of sense really.
actually we might be talking about two different things. I'm thinking of people making left turns on the green ball that either don't pull out. if you're talking about people going straight and you can't cross because it's backed up I'm 100% with you.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 29, 2021, 01:30:33 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 29, 2021, 01:30:33 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
- Speed limits need to be abolished for most highways outside of urban areas and replaced with a German style "Keep Right Except to Pass" requirement
You do realize that Keep Right Except to Pass is already in effect on almost all freeways in the United States?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:11:52 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:11:52 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 29, 2021, 01:30:33 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
- Speed limits need to be abolished for most highways outside of urban areas and replaced with a German style "Keep Right Except to Pass" requirement
You do realize that Keep Right Except to Pass is already in effect on almost all freeways in the United States?
Not true. Most states have have something to the effect of requiring you to yield the lane when going slower than the speed limit. Some states, like New Jersey, which do prohibit the continuous use of the left lane regardless of speed, are so urban that it is a meaningless law for a large percentage of the time as both lanes are usually full.
Beyond that, it is not generally well enforced and does not resemble the German implementation in any meaningful way. So no, we don't have that in effect. And when you remove the speed limit it changes the setup entirely anyway, which throws out half or more of the state laws on the books now as no longer meaningful in that case.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:14:35 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:14:35 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 01:24:26 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
- SUVs need to be banned for on road use
:rolleyes: How do you get them to wherever you think they should be used?
Chris
Not really an issue, once you make them illegal for road use they will cease to be manufactured in quantity as road vehicles. I suppose you can grandfather the existing stock in in the interim.[/list]
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: oscar on March 29, 2021, 02:22:36 PM
Post by: oscar on March 29, 2021, 02:22:36 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 29, 2021, 01:30:33 PM
You do realize that Keep Right Except to Pass is already in effect on almost all freeways in the United States?
KRETP isn't even the law in many places. Often, the signs say "slower traffic keep right" -- and we know how reluctant people can be about admitting that they are "slower traffic", even when other drivers are passing them on the right. STKR is even less enforceable than KRETP.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 29, 2021, 02:24:54 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 29, 2021, 02:24:54 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:14:35 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 01:24:26 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
- SUVs need to be banned for on road use
:rolleyes: How do you get them to wherever you think they should be used?
Chris
Not really an issue, once you make them illegal for road use they will cease to be manufactured in quantity as road vehicles. I suppose you can grandfather the existing stock in in the interim.[/list]
I'm curious how I would have been able to drive a couple weeks ago when I had 27" of snow at my house and my newly-mandated Honda Civic-type car couldn't get through it?
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 29, 2021, 02:32:33 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 29, 2021, 02:32:33 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:11:52 PMQuote from: interstatefan990 on March 29, 2021, 01:30:33 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
- Speed limits need to be abolished for most highways outside of urban areas and replaced with a German style "Keep Right Except to Pass" requirement
You do realize that Keep Right Except to Pass is already in effect on almost all freeways in the United States?
Not true. Most states have have something to the effect of requiring you to yield the lane when going slower than the speed limit. Some states, like New Jersey, which do prohibit the continuous use of the left lane regardless of speed, are so urban that it is a meaningless law for a large percentage of the time as both lanes are usually full.
Beyond that, it is not generally well enforced and does not resemble the German implementation in any meaningful way. So no, we don't have that in effect. And when you remove the speed limit it changes the setup entirely anyway, which throws out half or more of the state laws on the books now as no longer meaningful in that case.
If you are driving on a rural interstate with little traffic around, why does it matter what lane you are using?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:38:06 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:38:06 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 02:24:54 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:14:35 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 01:24:26 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
- SUVs need to be banned for on road use
:rolleyes: How do you get them to wherever you think they should be used?
Chris
Not really an issue, once you make them illegal for road use they will cease to be manufactured in quantity as road vehicles. I suppose you can grandfather the existing stock in in the interim.[/list]
I'm curious how I would have been able to drive a couple weeks ago when I had 27" of snow at my house and my newly-mandated Honda Civic-type car couldn't get through it?
Chris
People always pull out some kind of extreme edge case to try and justify those ridiculous things, but the reality is that 99% of miles driven can easily be accommodated with a sedan. I have spent years living in northern snowy climates driving a FWD sedan and never needed an SUV. Usually if it snows 27" you just clear the driveway and wait for the road to be plowed anyway. The once in a decade storm is not a justification for driving that thing all the time. Believe it or not people in the 70s did just fine without them.
The SUV only came into existence as a result of unintended consequences of regulation, so it should meet its demise by regulation. End of story.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:39:50 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:39:50 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 29, 2021, 02:32:33 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:11:52 PMQuote from: interstatefan990 on March 29, 2021, 01:30:33 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
- Speed limits need to be abolished for most highways outside of urban areas and replaced with a German style "Keep Right Except to Pass" requirement
You do realize that Keep Right Except to Pass is already in effect on almost all freeways in the United States?
Not true. Most states have have something to the effect of requiring you to yield the lane when going slower than the speed limit. Some states, like New Jersey, which do prohibit the continuous use of the left lane regardless of speed, are so urban that it is a meaningless law for a large percentage of the time as both lanes are usually full.
Beyond that, it is not generally well enforced and does not resemble the German implementation in any meaningful way. So no, we don't have that in effect. And when you remove the speed limit it changes the setup entirely anyway, which throws out half or more of the state laws on the books now as no longer meaningful in that case.
If you are driving on a rural interstate with little traffic around, why does it matter what lane you are using?
It doesn't, until you remove the speed limits and go Autobahn style. Then you need the rule to prevent passing on the right and people bottling up traffic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: texaskdog on March 29, 2021, 02:41:36 PM
Post by: texaskdog on March 29, 2021, 02:41:36 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
So many unpopular opinions, where to even start?
- The US Numbered Highways need to comprehensively renumbered into a real grid with as many Banner routes as possible
There should be a "top 100" US highways grid redone. anything else can be over 100 and those could go anywhere, not "branches" per se
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:49:16 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:49:16 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on March 29, 2021, 02:41:36 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
So many unpopular opinions, where to even start?
- The US Numbered Highways need to comprehensively renumbered into a real grid with as many Banner routes as possible
There should be a "top 100" US highways grid redone. anything else can be over 100 and those could go anywhere, not "branches" per se
Well that would be the grid more or less. The major north south 1,11,....,91,101. And the major east west 10,20,...,80,90
Three digit routes with those as their parents, might as well have them attached in some logical fashion.
Then cardinal directional variants like 10N or 1E.
Then alternate, bypass, scenic, truck, city, etc.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SectorZ on March 29, 2021, 02:52:27 PM
Post by: SectorZ on March 29, 2021, 02:52:27 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:38:06 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 02:24:54 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:14:35 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 01:24:26 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
- SUVs need to be banned for on road use
:rolleyes: How do you get them to wherever you think they should be used?
Chris
Not really an issue, once you make them illegal for road use they will cease to be manufactured in quantity as road vehicles. I suppose you can grandfather the existing stock in in the interim.[/list]
I'm curious how I would have been able to drive a couple weeks ago when I had 27" of snow at my house and my newly-mandated Honda Civic-type car couldn't get through it?
Chris
People always pull out some kind of extreme edge case to try and justify those ridiculous things, but the reality is that 99% of miles driven can easily be accommodated with a sedan. I have spent years living in northern snowy climates driving a FWD sedan and never needed an SUV. Usually if it snows 27" you just clear the driveway and wait for the road to be plowed anyway. The once in a decade storm is not a justification for driving that thing all the time. Believe it or not people in the 70s did just fine without them.
The SUV only came into existence as a result of unintended consequences of regulation, so it should meet its demise by regulation. End of story.
Unintended consequences of regulation? What regulation is/was necessary, other than your authoritarian pouting?
In your world, I presume a 1983 Ford Crown Vic is A-OK yet a 2021 Mazda CX-3 isn't?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 29, 2021, 02:58:43 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 29, 2021, 02:58:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:38:06 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 02:24:54 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:14:35 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 01:24:26 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
- SUVs need to be banned for on road use
:rolleyes: How do you get them to wherever you think they should be used?
Chris
Not really an issue, once you make them illegal for road use they will cease to be manufactured in quantity as road vehicles. I suppose you can grandfather the existing stock in in the interim.[/list]
I'm curious how I would have been able to drive a couple weeks ago when I had 27" of snow at my house and my newly-mandated Honda Civic-type car couldn't get through it?
Chris
People always pull out some kind of extreme edge case to try and justify those ridiculous things, but the reality is that 99% of miles driven can easily be accommodated with a sedan. I have spent years living in northern snowy climates driving a FWD sedan and never needed an SUV. Usually if it snows 27" you just clear the driveway and wait for the road to be plowed anyway. The once in a decade storm is not a justification for driving that thing all the time. Believe it or not people in the 70s did just fine without them.
The SUV only came into existence as a result of unintended consequences of regulation, so it should meet its demise by regulation. End of story.
a) This isn't really a once in a decade type of storm around here. I just used the most recent example. We get over a foot of snow a couple times a year. And in a lot of municipalities, they don't plow side streets, only main streets. If I just shoveled and waited, it would have been at least three days before I could have gotten out with a low clearance vehicle.
b) There were a whole lot more accidents/ending up in a ditch before AWD/4WD became more popular (as well as with other technology improvements like ABS). Growing up in Minnesota in the 80's, I don't think I can count on both hands how many times I had someone I know ended up in a ditch. Returning to that doesn't seem like a ton of fun.
c) It also isn't an edge case for those of us that like to recreate in the mountains and don't always drive on paved (or even graded) roads. My Jeep is hardly just a mall cruiser.
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 03:02:41 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 03:02:41 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on March 29, 2021, 02:52:27 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:38:06 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 02:24:54 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:14:35 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 01:24:26 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
- SUVs need to be banned for on road use
:rolleyes: How do you get them to wherever you think they should be used?
Chris
Not really an issue, once you make them illegal for road use they will cease to be manufactured in quantity as road vehicles. I suppose you can grandfather the existing stock in in the interim.[/list]
I'm curious how I would have been able to drive a couple weeks ago when I had 27" of snow at my house and my newly-mandated Honda Civic-type car couldn't get through it?
Chris
People always pull out some kind of extreme edge case to try and justify those ridiculous things, but the reality is that 99% of miles driven can easily be accommodated with a sedan. I have spent years living in northern snowy climates driving a FWD sedan and never needed an SUV. Usually if it snows 27" you just clear the driveway and wait for the road to be plowed anyway. The once in a decade storm is not a justification for driving that thing all the time. Believe it or not people in the 70s did just fine without them.
The SUV only came into existence as a result of unintended consequences of regulation, so it should meet its demise by regulation. End of story.
Unintended consequences of regulation? What regulation is/was necessary, other than your authoritarian pouting?
In your world, I presume a 1983 Ford Crown Vic is A-OK yet a 2021 Mazda CX-3 isn't?
The regulation that caused it was perhaps necessary but extremely poorly implemented, in that SUVs were given the same MPG requirements as trucks, even though they are passenger vehicles. Even that regulation only became necessary due to earlier failures on the part of the Federal Government and the Texas Railroad Commission.
The Crown Vic, and the Panther Platform more generally was an excellent series of automobiles. The 2021 Mazda CX-3 is not by any means. The comparison is not entirely fair, as you are looking at decades of difference in technology etc. But the basic design principles of the comparison hold true. For a given vehicle, ride height MUST sacrifice fuel economy and handling/ride quality. That ride height is unnecessary and has been ingrained in a bizarre arms race to see over the vehicle in front of you.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on March 29, 2021, 03:06:21 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on March 29, 2021, 03:06:21 PM
Quote from: formulanone on March 29, 2021, 07:58:59 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 28, 2021, 04:25:02 PMQuote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 04:02:55 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 28, 2021, 03:56:35 PMQuote from: interstatefan990 on March 28, 2021, 03:03:41 PMQuote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 28, 2021, 02:46:42 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on March 28, 2021, 02:44:51 PMMe neither.
I don't care about sign fonts
So if DOTs start using Comic Sans on highway signs, you're cool with it?
Heh. For a better example, see the two sign photos on this page (https://typographyforlawyers.com/what-is-typography.html).
Revision:
Any bold sans-serif font that is legible will work on a road sign.
Except it won't–legibility is not a value that is either 0 or 1, at least not for road signs. Engineers have conducted studies to prove that different typefaces have different degrees of legibility. Say you have one typeface that can be read from 100 ft away, while another can be read from 75 ft away. They're both technically "legible"–you can read them both–but one can be more easily read from further away, and that means it is more legible. On a road, since you are moving, that means the driver has extra time to read and react to the message. This difference can be safety-critical.
So the statement "any bold sans-serif font that is legible will work on a road sign" isn't an opinion you can have, it's a statement that is simply wrong.
Sure it is; its an opinion. It's just that Arial, Helvetica, Transport, DIN Mittleschrift, and Clarendon haven't been tested side-by-side against Highway Gothic/Clearview to prove they're ineffective by any substantial degree. To several roadfans and roadgeeks, the difference in usage may as well be Comic Sans or Papyrus (admittedly terrible choices for something conveying important information with regards to safety).
Okay then, it's an opinion based on facts which aren't true. Which means it's wrong.
No matter how much we bitch and moan about the DOT, they employ professionals that make decisions based on hard data. Studies and a huge amount of math and engineering practice go into determining the orthodoxy when it comes to road and traffic control design. If you've got a different opinion than what the standard practice of the profession is, you damn sure better have your own data to back up that opinion, or it doesn't mean shit. It is the exact same mentality that got this country into such deep shit with the pandemic–sure there's a team of doctors with 40 years of experience in this field recommending one thing, but I read a Facebook post, so I'm pretty sure I know better.
It's not even so much about Arial's inherent legibility per se. What the FHWA Series and Clearview fonts bring to the table is that they have both been tested for legibility in such a way that we can predict that a sign set in FHWA Series D (or Clearview, or Clarendon, or DIN, or whatever road sign font) at a certain size will be legible to the driver from so many feet away. That means we can place a sign a known number of feet ahead of a feature of interest (hazard point, decision point at a junction, whatever) and guarantee that the driver will have time to read the sign and react to the message accordingly. This is data we straight up don't have for Arial or Franklin Gothic. So those fonts simply do not work for road signs, as they introduce too many unknown variables for effective engineering practice to be possible. That isn't a thing you can have an opinion on, it's a black and white fact.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 03:07:51 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 03:07:51 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 02:58:43 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:38:06 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 02:24:54 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:14:35 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 01:24:26 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
- SUVs need to be banned for on road use
:rolleyes: How do you get them to wherever you think they should be used?
Chris
Not really an issue, once you make them illegal for road use they will cease to be manufactured in quantity as road vehicles. I suppose you can grandfather the existing stock in in the interim.[/list]
I'm curious how I would have been able to drive a couple weeks ago when I had 27" of snow at my house and my newly-mandated Honda Civic-type car couldn't get through it?
Chris
People always pull out some kind of extreme edge case to try and justify those ridiculous things, but the reality is that 99% of miles driven can easily be accommodated with a sedan. I have spent years living in northern snowy climates driving a FWD sedan and never needed an SUV. Usually if it snows 27" you just clear the driveway and wait for the road to be plowed anyway. The once in a decade storm is not a justification for driving that thing all the time. Believe it or not people in the 70s did just fine without them.
The SUV only came into existence as a result of unintended consequences of regulation, so it should meet its demise by regulation. End of story.
a) This isn't really a once in a decade type of storm around here. I just used the most recent example. We get over a foot of snow a couple times a year. And in a lot of municipalities, they don't plow side streets, only main streets. If I just shoveled and waited, it would have been at least three days before I could have gotten out with a low clearance vehicle.
b) There were a whole lot more accidents/ending up in a ditch before AWD/4WD became more popular (as well as with other technology improvements like ABS). Growing up in Minnesota in the 80's, I don't think I can count on both hands how many times I had someone I know ended up in a ditch. Returning to that doesn't seem like a ton of fun.
c) It also isn't an edge case for those of us that like to recreate in the mountains and don't always drive on paved (or even graded) roads. My Jeep is hardly just a mall cruiser.
Chris
The idea that AWD/4WD makes accidents like going into the ditch less common is really fanciful. 86% of people that buy those vehicles but bad "all season" tires on them and call it good. The stopping distance for a Camry with studded tires is 1/3 of a CRV with all season tires. AWD helps you speed up, it has ZERO impact on braking and little impact on handling. The difference you see is thanks to ABS, ESC, etc. along with other factors that had nothing to do with AWD.
I'm glad you go off roading in your SUV, but 99% of the miles driven by those things are on paved roads to the mall, Walmart, etc. As you said it is for recreation anyway so it need not dictate policy for the vast majority of them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 29, 2021, 03:17:23 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 29, 2021, 03:17:23 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 03:07:51 PM
The idea that AWD/4WD makes accidents like going into the ditch less common is really fanciful. 86% of people that buy those vehicles but bad "all season" tires on them and call it good. The stopping distance for a Camry with studded tires is 1/3 of a CRV with all season tires. AWD helps you speed up, it has ZERO impact on braking and little impact on handling. The difference you see is thanks to ABS, ESC, etc. along with other factors that had nothing to do with AWD.
Agreed re: tires (I have severe winter rated BFG KO2s), and I'm well aware that tires stop your vehicle, not drivetrain. But if your car starts to get a little squirrely on a snowpacked road, having all wheels driving to straighten you out instead of going into a spin does matter. If we're strictly talking "slamming on the brakes" straight line stopping, then obviously the 4WD/AWD is irrelevant.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 03:07:51 PM
I'm glad you go off roading in your SUV, but 99% of the miles driven by those things are on paved roads to the mall, Walmart, etc. As you said it is for recreation anyway so it need not dictate policy for the vast majority of them.
But it's also my daily driver. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you posted earlier, you would prefer that I not be able to use my vehicle in that role.
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SectorZ on March 29, 2021, 03:31:02 PM
Post by: SectorZ on March 29, 2021, 03:31:02 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 03:07:51 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 02:58:43 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:38:06 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 02:24:54 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:14:35 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 01:24:26 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
- SUVs need to be banned for on road use
:rolleyes: How do you get them to wherever you think they should be used?
Chris
Not really an issue, once you make them illegal for road use they will cease to be manufactured in quantity as road vehicles. I suppose you can grandfather the existing stock in in the interim.[/list]
I'm curious how I would have been able to drive a couple weeks ago when I had 27" of snow at my house and my newly-mandated Honda Civic-type car couldn't get through it?
Chris
People always pull out some kind of extreme edge case to try and justify those ridiculous things, but the reality is that 99% of miles driven can easily be accommodated with a sedan. I have spent years living in northern snowy climates driving a FWD sedan and never needed an SUV. Usually if it snows 27" you just clear the driveway and wait for the road to be plowed anyway. The once in a decade storm is not a justification for driving that thing all the time. Believe it or not people in the 70s did just fine without them.
The SUV only came into existence as a result of unintended consequences of regulation, so it should meet its demise by regulation. End of story.
a) This isn't really a once in a decade type of storm around here. I just used the most recent example. We get over a foot of snow a couple times a year. And in a lot of municipalities, they don't plow side streets, only main streets. If I just shoveled and waited, it would have been at least three days before I could have gotten out with a low clearance vehicle.
b) There were a whole lot more accidents/ending up in a ditch before AWD/4WD became more popular (as well as with other technology improvements like ABS). Growing up in Minnesota in the 80's, I don't think I can count on both hands how many times I had someone I know ended up in a ditch. Returning to that doesn't seem like a ton of fun.
c) It also isn't an edge case for those of us that like to recreate in the mountains and don't always drive on paved (or even graded) roads. My Jeep is hardly just a mall cruiser.
Chris
The idea that AWD/4WD makes accidents like going into the ditch less common is really fanciful. 86% of people that buy those vehicles but bad "all season" tires on them and call it good. The stopping distance for a Camry with studded tires is 1/3 of a CRV with all season tires. AWD helps you speed up, it has ZERO impact on braking and little impact on handling. The difference you see is thanks to ABS, ESC, etc. along with other factors that had nothing to do with AWD.
I'm glad you go off roading in your SUV, but 99% of the miles driven by those things are on paved roads to the mall, Walmart, etc. As you said it is for recreation anyway so it need not dictate policy for the vast majority of them.
You act as if SUVs are all Jeep Wranglers and mid-90's Ford Broncos. You have gone out in the world right? Most SUVs, what people call them, are really crossovers, and are more car like than many cars. Many get better gas mileage than many cars.
We get it, you hate something and want it banned, taking away the rights and enjoyment of million of people you apparently hate. Get over it. Please. Hating on SUVs to the point of demanding their ban is just shitting on a huge chunk of your brothers and sisters in this country.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 29, 2021, 03:36:54 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 29, 2021, 03:36:54 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 29, 2021, 02:22:36 PMQuote from: interstatefan990 on March 29, 2021, 01:30:33 PM
You do realize that Keep Right Except to Pass is already in effect on almost all freeways in the United States?
KRETP isn't even the law in many places. Often, the signs say "slower traffic keep right" -- and we know how reluctant people can be about admitting that they are "slower traffic", even when other drivers are passing them on the right. STKR is even less enforceable than KRETP.
A lot of people are going to disagree with this, but if you really think about it, at their core, KRETP AND STKR are the same thing.
In a STKR state: If you are considered "slower traffic" then that means you're not passing other vehicles, they're passing you, so you are already required to keep right except to pass even slower traffic. Hence, keep right except to pass.
In a KRETP state: If you aren't passing other vehicles, you are technically slower traffic, and you are also required to keep right. Hence, slower traffic keep right.
Also about this SUV talk: What do you even consider a real "SUV" ? Is my Subaru Crosstrek or Toyota RAV4 too threatening to your non-SUV vehicle to be allowed on the road?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 29, 2021, 04:43:00 PM
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 29, 2021, 04:43:00 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on March 29, 2021, 01:29:16 PM
actually we might be talking about two different things. I'm thinking of people making left turns on the green ball that either don't pull out. if you're talking about people going straight and you can't cross because it's backed up I'm 100% with you.
Oh yeah. I know what you mean about that issue, and I do get annoyed with people who refuse to pull into the intersection on a permissive left turn when there's no reason not to.
There's also the occasional phenomenon of people treating a protected-only left turn as a permissive left turn! Oops? I once rode with someone who did that. Me: "You have a red light." Driver: "No, the light is green" (doesn't pay attention to the red light on the left turn signal and proceeds to turn left). I wonder if upgrading to red left arrows will help in these cases. Actually, I think there are a lot of intersections with protected-only left turns that could be made protected/permissive.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SeriesE on March 29, 2021, 05:56:03 PM
Post by: SeriesE on March 29, 2021, 05:56:03 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PMAdding on this: non-commercial use of pickup trucks should be limited. They're designed to be work vehicles, not pure people haulers.
SUVs need to be banned for on road use
Bumper height standards need to apply to all vehicles including trucks and SUVs for the safety of all cars. This needs to be enforced after sale too so no excessive lifts.
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I like the US route shield more than the interstate shield.
At this point the US route system has outlived its usefulness and routes that are not at least expressway quality should be downgraded to state routes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on March 30, 2021, 07:29:29 AM
Post by: hotdogPi on March 30, 2021, 07:29:29 AM
- US routes should remain on parallel routes.
- Control states are fine.
- Exit signs should be able to list more than two destinations.
- If you successfully fight a speed trap in court, you receive a bonus $400. Speed or red light camera, $1000.
- There should be very few dead ends; they should not exist at all unless there's an obstacle.
- When reaching an international border, you should have the option to turn around without going through customs.
- KY 79 and IN 135 should be part of US 79.
- Car insurance should be cheaper but should not apply if you're entirely at fault and it's not a road geometry issue or a mechanical issue with the car.
- Busses is not a legitimate spelling of buses.
- After the day ends for public transit vehicles, if you want to go from where it ends normally to where they keep them overnight, you can take that trip (for the standard fare).
- Amtrak should be expanded.
- AHTD should never have renamed themselves.
- Street names that are the name of an adjacent city/town, where the road goes to that location, are perfectly fine and not unimaginative.
- If it takes more than 1/2 second to see what is wrong with a sign, and it's not misleading or incorrect, it does not belong in Worst of Road Signs.
- There is nothing wrong with I-73's number.
- Municipality names that are an actual word (including those that aren't English) should always be pronounced the way you would expect them to be. Looking at you, Chili, NY, Rio Grande, OH, Hurricane, UT, and various places named Buena Vista, Versailles, and Milan.
- DOTs should ignore NIMBYs. It's called a vocal minority for a reason.
- Breakdown lane use during peak hours should be implemented in more places.
All sidewalks should be 15 feet underground.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 07:40:08 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 07:40:08 AM
Quote from: 1 on March 30, 2021, 07:29:29 AMAgree with this one. I wonder who the genius that normalized cul-de-sacs in American suburbs was.
- There should be very few dead ends; they should not exist at all unless there's an obstacle.
Quote from: 1 on March 30, 2021, 07:29:29 AMThere is an option to turn around. It's at the 'Last exit before border' ramps. It's marked that for a reason.
- When reaching an international border, you should have the option to turn around without going through customs.
Quote from: 1 on March 30, 2021, 07:29:29 AMThere's people that thinks it's unimaginative? That's new to me, as I'm used to it (like Hamilton Ave, Reading Rd, Montgomery Rd in the Cincinnati area).
- Street names that are the name of an adjacent city/town, where the road goes to that location, are perfectly fine and not unimaginative.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: I-55 on March 30, 2021, 09:02:03 AM
Post by: I-55 on March 30, 2021, 09:02:03 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 07:40:08 AMAs someone who had to turn around before the DFW airport tolls because construction signage was confusing I'd say having turnarounds wouldn't be a bad thing.Quote from: 1 on March 30, 2021, 07:29:29 AMThere is an option to turn around. It's at the 'Last exit before border' ramps. It's marked that for a reason.
- When reaching an international border, you should have the option to turn around without going through customs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: oscar on March 30, 2021, 09:35:41 AM
Post by: oscar on March 30, 2021, 09:35:41 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 07:40:08 AMQuote from: 1 on March 30, 2021, 07:29:29 AMThere is an option to turn around. It's at the 'Last exit before border' ramps. It's marked that for a reason.
- When reaching an international border, you should have the option to turn around without going through customs.
Yes, and similar provisions for non-freeway routes.
However, if you actually cross the border and then turn around, you'll usually have to clear customs at least on the side of the border you came from. Typically, once across the border you're also prohibited from turning around before the other country's customs checkpoint, unless the checkpoint is set back far from the border (such as with the Alaska Highway crossing, where the Canadian checkpoint is about 17 miles from the border). People sometimes spend a lot of jail time for crossing the border with stuff illegal on the other side of the border (such as guns), so in such cases it's important not to miss the marked last exit or U-turn before the border.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 30, 2021, 10:45:20 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 30, 2021, 10:45:20 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 07:40:08 AMQuote from: 1 on March 30, 2021, 07:29:29 AMAgree with this one. I wonder who the genius that normalized cul-de-sacs in American suburbs was.
- There should be very few dead ends; they should not exist at all unless there's an obstacle.
Property developers. You can cut more lots out of a development with cul-de-sacs and charge more for them. I live on one and its great. I don't have to deal with a lot of traffic at all.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: 1995hoo on March 30, 2021, 10:54:45 AM
Post by: 1995hoo on March 30, 2021, 10:54:45 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 30, 2021, 10:45:20 AMQuote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 07:40:08 AMQuote from: 1 on March 30, 2021, 07:29:29 AMAgree with this one. I wonder who the genius that normalized cul-de-sacs in American suburbs was.
- There should be very few dead ends; they should not exist at all unless there's an obstacle.
Property developers. You can cut more lots out of a development with cul-de-sacs and charge more for them. I live on one and its great. I don't have to deal with a lot of traffic at all.
Also, there are plenty of people who, as you note, like living either on a cul-de-sac or a street system that has only one outlet. There are various reasons–lack of through traffic using the neighborhood as a bypass (which usually goes along with those same people driving far too fast for a residential area), less noise, safer for kids to play in the street, etc.
We don't live on a cul-de-sac, but there's only one way out of our neighborhood. While it can sometimes be a mild nuisance, on the whole the benefit of reduced traffic outweighs that. The street leading in and out has a 25-mph speed limit, but I routinely see people doing 40+ and going fast enough that they can't seem to stay on their own side of the double yellow line on the curves. If the street connected through at the other end, I firmly believe people would be going through here at 50+, given that on the nearby thru street that parallels our neighborhood people routinely do 60 mph in a 35-mph zone.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 10:55:01 AM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 10:55:01 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 30, 2021, 10:45:20 AMQuote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 07:40:08 AMQuote from: 1 on March 30, 2021, 07:29:29 AMAgree with this one. I wonder who the genius that normalized cul-de-sacs in American suburbs was.
- There should be very few dead ends; they should not exist at all unless there's an obstacle.
Property developers. You can cut more lots out of a development with cul-de-sacs and charge more for them. I live on one and its great. I don't have to deal with a lot of traffic at all.
By and large I will agree with this. They have numerous benefits, and the only serious downside to the layout is the lack of back alleys for services.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on March 30, 2021, 11:25:35 AM
Post by: formulanone on March 30, 2021, 11:25:35 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 10:55:01 AMQuote from: SEWIGuy on March 30, 2021, 10:45:20 AMQuote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 07:40:08 AMQuote from: 1 on March 30, 2021, 07:29:29 AMAgree with this one. I wonder who the genius that normalized cul-de-sacs in American suburbs was.
- There should be very few dead ends; they should not exist at all unless there's an obstacle.
Property developers. You can cut more lots out of a development with cul-de-sacs and charge more for them. I live on one and its great. I don't have to deal with a lot of traffic at all.
By and large I will agree with this. They have numerous benefits, and the only serious downside to the layout is the lack of back alleys for services.
They're also good for letting kids play in the street without having to look for traffic from multiple sides.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 02:05:54 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 02:05:54 PM
Quote from: Frafra Zoomer on March 28, 2021, 02:21:34 AMQuote from: stridentweasel on March 26, 2021, 05:37:09 PM
Interesting. I could get behind upgrading them with Jesery barriers and a passing lane every 10 miles or less. Still, I think it's unrealistic to expect major upgrades of most two-lane highways. FWIW, two-lane, undivided highways go up to 75 MPH in Texas: https://goo.gl/maps/xC6HcTGaVHTfon4R9
Is Texas trying to get people killed??? A 150 mph speed differential between adjacent lanes is not safe at all.
If accidents aren't actually happening in large numbers, then it is not unsafe.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:14:35 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 01:24:26 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
SUVs need to be banned for on road use
:rolleyes: How do you get them to wherever you think they should be used?
Not really an issue, once you make them illegal for road use they will cease to be manufactured in quantity as road vehicles. I suppose you can grandfather the existing stock in in the interim.
What vehicle do you expect my family of five to use when driving on the rocky desert roads of Mexico, then?
(https://i.imgur.com/C6sUR84.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/X1bjnLq.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/a2gQ2O7.png)
Quote from: SeriesE on March 29, 2021, 05:56:03 PM
Adding on this: non-commercial use of pickup trucks should be limited. They're designed to be work vehicles, not pure people haulers.
So, what are contractors supposed to use to get between their house and the grocery store? What are farmers supposed to drive to go to church? How is a person with a large lawn and garden supposed to haul landscaping materials from Lowe's to his property?
Quote from: SeriesE on March 29, 2021, 05:56:03 PM
Bumper height standards need to apply to all vehicles including trucks and SUVs for the safety of all cars.
Agreed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:07:00 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:07:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 02:05:54 PM
So, what are contractors supposed to use to get between their house and the grocery store? What are farmers supposed to drive to go to church? How is a person with a large lawn and garden supposed to haul landscaping materials from Lowe's to his property?
Contractors can use their cars, and keep their trucks at the job-site. Farmers can drive their cars as well, have you ever actually seen a farm? They usually have more vehicles than people. The person with he large lawn can haul them in a station wagon, just like everyone in the 70's did.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 03:15:41 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 03:15:41 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:07:00 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 02:05:54 PM
So, what are contractors supposed to use to get between their house and the grocery store? What are farmers supposed to drive to go to church? How is a person with a large lawn and garden supposed to haul landscaping materials from Lowe's to his property?
Contractors can use their cars, and keep their trucks at the job-site. Farmers can drive their cars as well, have you ever actually seen a farm? They usually have more vehicles than people. The person with he large lawn can haul them in a station wagon, just like everyone in the 70's did.
Everyone apparently needs to buy multiple cars per person in your world, eh?
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:23:10 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:23:10 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 03:15:41 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:07:00 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 02:05:54 PM
So, what are contractors supposed to use to get between their house and the grocery store? What are farmers supposed to drive to go to church? How is a person with a large lawn and garden supposed to haul landscaping materials from Lowe's to his property?
Contractors can use their cars, and keep their trucks at the job-site. Farmers can drive their cars as well, have you ever actually seen a farm? They usually have more vehicles than people. The person with he large lawn can haul them in a station wagon, just like everyone in the 70's did.
Everyone apparently needs to buy multiple cars per person in your world, eh?
Chris
No, everyone can use a single car for all passenger transport if they choose. You are simply prohibited from using a heavy vehicle made for commercial purposes as a passenger vehicle. The only people that would buy those vehicles are either A) people engaged in a business activity, in which case the cost of ownership is simply part of doing business or B) people buying them for off road recreational purposes, which is their choice. Most people would never need bother themselves with it any more than they concern themselves today with not being able to take a semi-truck to Lowes on a class D license.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: oscar on March 30, 2021, 03:27:50 PM
Post by: oscar on March 30, 2021, 03:27:50 PM
To add to kphoger's comment, I also drive bad unpaved roads, usually a few time zones away from home, and in places ranging from southern California to Alaska and northern Canada. Some of them are bad enough to chew up and spit out the Prius I use for local travel. I used to drive them in a gas-hog full-size pickup truck. I replaced that with a smaller, more fuel-efficient compact SUV.
Which basically no longer exist, having been replaced by minivans, SUVs, and pickup trucks. I'm not sure the minivan would fare better in your world than the SUV or the pickup truck.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:07:00 PM
The person with he large lawn can haul them in a station wagon, just like everyone in the 70's did.
Which basically no longer exist, having been replaced by minivans, SUVs, and pickup trucks. I'm not sure the minivan would fare better in your world than the SUV or the pickup truck.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 03:28:56 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 03:28:56 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:23:10 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 03:15:41 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:07:00 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 02:05:54 PM
So, what are contractors supposed to use to get between their house and the grocery store? What are farmers supposed to drive to go to church? How is a person with a large lawn and garden supposed to haul landscaping materials from Lowe's to his property?
Contractors can use their cars, and keep their trucks at the job-site. Farmers can drive their cars as well, have you ever actually seen a farm? They usually have more vehicles than people. The person with he large lawn can haul them in a station wagon, just like everyone in the 70's did.
Everyone apparently needs to buy multiple cars per person in your world, eh?
Chris
No, everyone can use a single car for all passenger transport if they choose. You are simply prohibited from using a heavy vehicle made for commercial purposes as a passenger vehicle. The only people that would buy those vehicles are either A) people engaged in a business activity, in which case the cost of ownership is simply part of doing business or B) people buying them for off road recreational purposes, which is their choice. Most people would never need bother themselves with it any more than they concern themselves today with not being able to take a semi-truck to Lowes on a class D license.
But again, I live in the suburbs of Denver and I drive a Wrangler. I like to take it to the mountains to access inaccessible trailheads for a normal car. How would I get said Jeep to the mountains? I could get a second vehicle to be able to tow my Jeep, but that would require either a truck or an SUV, so that defeats the purpose. Or do I have to leave my Jeep at home at all times unless going directly to the mountains (and I'm assuming I'll need some kind of proof of that, maybe get the government involved).
So now they only people who can go four-wheeling are necessarily wealthy to be able to afford two vehicles?
Also, what are your views of the new electric Hummer coming out? Does that pass muster? And I'm assuming if I buy a McLaren that gets way worse gas mileage than my Jeep, that's OK because it's not an SUV?
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:36:15 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:36:15 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 03:28:56 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:23:10 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 03:15:41 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:07:00 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 02:05:54 PM
So, what are contractors supposed to use to get between their house and the grocery store? What are farmers supposed to drive to go to church? How is a person with a large lawn and garden supposed to haul landscaping materials from Lowe's to his property?
Contractors can use their cars, and keep their trucks at the job-site. Farmers can drive their cars as well, have you ever actually seen a farm? They usually have more vehicles than people. The person with he large lawn can haul them in a station wagon, just like everyone in the 70's did.
Everyone apparently needs to buy multiple cars per person in your world, eh?
Chris
No, everyone can use a single car for all passenger transport if they choose. You are simply prohibited from using a heavy vehicle made for commercial purposes as a passenger vehicle. The only people that would buy those vehicles are either A) people engaged in a business activity, in which case the cost of ownership is simply part of doing business or B) people buying them for off road recreational purposes, which is their choice. Most people would never need bother themselves with it any more than they concern themselves today with not being able to take a semi-truck to Lowes on a class D license.
But again, I live in the suburbs of Denver and I drive a Wrangler. I like to take it to the mountains to access inaccessible trailheads for a normal car. How would I get said car to the mountains? Or do I have to leave my Jeep at home at all times unless going directly to the mountains (and I'm assuming I'll need some kind of proof of that, maybe get the government involved). So now they only people who can go four-wheeling are necessarily wealthy to be able to afford two vehicles? Also, what are your views of the new electric Hummer coming out? Does that pass muster?
Chris
Eh, there are a number of ways that could work. Even now non-road legal vehicles have to be towed to their off road point of use, that is fine by me. I don't like the "I'm on my way to x" approach, that would not fly with a dragster, etc. now and is obviously difficult to enforce. So the requirement would just be to tow your off road vehicle to the point you want to use it.
Frankly, I am fine with truncating roads that are inaccessible by a normal passenger car and making the rest non-motorized. It would reclaim a lot of our public lands for nature and make it more wild. If people want to enjoy that they can get out and hike.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 03:38:59 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 03:38:59 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:36:15 PM
Frankly, I am fine with truncating roads that are inaccessible by a normal passenger car and making the rest non-motorized. It would reclaim a lot of our public lands for nature and make it more wild. If people want to enjoy that they can get out and hike.
How do you "truncate" this?
(https://4wheelonlineblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/eng.jpg)
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:40:39 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:40:39 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 03:38:59 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:36:15 PM
Frankly, I am fine with truncating roads that are inaccessible by a normal passenger car and making the rest non-motorized. It would reclaim a lot of our public lands for nature and make it more wild. If people want to enjoy that they can get out and hike.
How do you "truncate" this?
(https://4wheelonlineblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/eng.jpg)
Chris
Like any other road the forest service, BLM, etc. closes? With a gate? Seriously this is not rocket science, just gate saying this is as far as you go, feel free to get off your duff and walk if you want to enjoy nature past this point.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 03:41:16 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 03:41:16 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:07:00 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 02:05:54 PM
So, what are contractors supposed to use to get between their house and the grocery store? What are farmers supposed to drive to go to church? How is a person with a large lawn and garden supposed to haul landscaping materials from Lowe's to his property?
Contractors can use their cars, and keep their trucks at the job-site. Farmers can drive their cars as well, have you ever actually seen a farm? They usually have more vehicles than people. The person with he large lawn can haul them in a station wagon, just like everyone in the 70's did.
I work for a company that only hires contractors. The great majority of them do not own two vehicles. Their work truck is the same vehicle they use for everything else.
Also, I also grew up in farm country, 29 miles from the nearest stoplight. In a place where heavy rain would render the dirt roads impassible for anything but a weighted-down pickup. When we first moved out there, back when I was in fourth grade, I distinctly remember driving home from my dad's first church service (he was a pastor) out in the country. Our Toyota Corolla was slipping and sliding all over the road. Congregants patiently followed behind us in their pickups, ready to pull us out of the ditch.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:23:10 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 03:15:41 PM
Everyone apparently needs to buy multiple cars per person in your world, eh?
No, everyone can use a single car for all passenger transport if they choose. You are simply prohibited from using a heavy vehicle made for commercial purposes as a passenger vehicle. The only people that would buy those vehicles are either A) people engaged in a business activity, in which case the cost of ownership is simply part of doing business or B) people buying them for off road recreational purposes, which is their choice. Most people would never need bother themselves with it any more than they concern themselves today with not being able to take a semi-truck to Lowes on a class D license.
Again, if someone has a pickup for business purposes, then you're requiring that person to own two vehicles. When a person goes into a business that requires a truck, they take that cost into account–but part of that accounting might be to trade in their other car. A lot of my company's contractors are 22-year-old single guys who have zero reason to own a second vehicle in addition to their work truck.
Besides which, you didn't answer my question. What would you have my family of five drive when we're in Mexico, leading a religious mission trip, on roads that are impassible in passenger cars? It's not commercial activity. It's not recreation. It's just getting from A to B. (Those pictures I posted earlier were taken on just such a trip.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 03:43:06 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 03:43:06 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:40:39 PM
Like any other road the forest service, BLM, etc. closes? With a gate? Seriously this is not rocket science, just gate saying this is as far as you go, feel free to get off your duff and walk if you want to enjoy nature past this point.
I do get off my duff plenty (I've climbed 20 of the 14,000 foot peak mountains in Colorado). Maybe I should just walk from home instead so I get a "real adventure".
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:45:57 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:45:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 03:41:16 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:07:00 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 02:05:54 PM
So, what are contractors supposed to use to get between their house and the grocery store? What are farmers supposed to drive to go to church? How is a person with a large lawn and garden supposed to haul landscaping materials from Lowe's to his property?
Contractors can use their cars, and keep their trucks at the job-site. Farmers can drive their cars as well, have you ever actually seen a farm? They usually have more vehicles than people. The person with he large lawn can haul them in a station wagon, just like everyone in the 70's did.
I work for a company that only hires contractors. The great majority of them do not own two vehicles. Their work truck is the same vehicle they use for everything else.
Also, I also grew up in farm country, 29 miles from the nearest stoplight. In a place where heavy rain would render the dirt roads impassible for anything but a weighted-down pickup. When we first moved out there, back when I was in fourth grade, I distinctly remember driving home from my dad's first church service (he was a pastor) out in the country. Our Toyota Corolla was slipping and sliding all over the road. Congregants patiently followed behind us in their pickups, ready to pull us out of the ditch.Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:23:10 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 03:15:41 PM
Everyone apparently needs to buy multiple cars per person in your world, eh?
No, everyone can use a single car for all passenger transport if they choose. You are simply prohibited from using a heavy vehicle made for commercial purposes as a passenger vehicle. The only people that would buy those vehicles are either A) people engaged in a business activity, in which case the cost of ownership is simply part of doing business or B) people buying them for off road recreational purposes, which is their choice. Most people would never need bother themselves with it any more than they concern themselves today with not being able to take a semi-truck to Lowes on a class D license.
Again, if someone has a pickup for business purposes, then you're requiring that person to own two vehicles. When a person goes into a business that requires a truck, they take that cost into account–but part of that accounting might be to trade in their other car. A lot of my company's contractors are 22-year-old single guys who have zero reason to own a second vehicle in addition to their work truck.
Besides which, you didn't answer my question. What would you have my family of five drive when we're in Mexico, leading a religious mission trip, on roads that are impassible in passenger cars? It's not commercial activity. It's not recreation. It's just getting from A to B. (Those pictures I posted earlier were taken on just such a trip.)
Their accounting would have to change, which happens all the time in light of new regulations, that is just how it goes. If that changes the cost structure that much then don't be a contractor, simple as that.
As to the Corolla, I driven one all over the country and never had an issue, sounds more like the driver was at fault than the car. Keep in mind that people drove sedans all over this country until 30 years ago, its not rocket science.
What you drive in Mexico has nothing to do with US regulation. Our laws apply here, and if you want to drive here you have to abide by them. Driving in other countries is not our problem and is not an appropriate way to make policy.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:48:30 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:48:30 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 03:43:06 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:40:39 PM
Like any other road the forest service, BLM, etc. closes? With a gate? Seriously this is not rocket science, just gate saying this is as far as you go, feel free to get off your duff and walk if you want to enjoy nature past this point.
I do get off my duff plenty (I've climbed 20 of the 14,000 foot peak mountains in Colorado). Maybe I should just walk from home instead so I get a "real adventure".
Chris
That's up to you, or you could drive a passenger vehicle to whatever the new trailhead is and live with that. But no amount of peak bagging is an excuse for needing to be able to drive that far into the wilderness. :pan:
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 03:50:46 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 03:50:46 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:48:30 PM
That's up to you, or you could drive a passenger vehicle to whatever the new trailhead is and live with that. But no amount of peak bagging is an excuse for needing to be able to drive that far into the wilderness. :pan:
I think I'm out of food for this feeding.
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:01:41 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:01:41 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:45:57 PM
Their accounting would have to change, which happens all the time in light of new regulations, that is just how it goes. If that changes the cost structure that much then don't be a contractor, simple as that.
Their work is barely profitable as it is, and hardly anyone stays anymore. You just set up another impediment for no good reason.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:45:57 PM
As to the Corolla, I driven one all over the country and never had an issue, sounds more like the driver was at fault than the car. Keep in mind that people drove sedans all over this country until 30 years ago, its not rocket science.
So have I, bub. By the way, that was more than 30 years ago. No, it wasn't the driver's fault. I've slipped and slid in a Corolla on those roads after a rain, myself. Almost gotten stuck once or twice. Don't pretend that a sedan is just as good as a truck when it comes to bad roads. It isn't.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:45:57 PM
What you drive in Mexico has nothing to do with US regulation. Our laws apply here, and if you want to drive here you have to abide by them. Driving in other countries is not our problem and is not an appropriate way to make policy.
But how do you expect me to get there from here?
It's 700 miles from here to the border, then another 350 after that. We can only afford to own one vehicle, and it's the evil SUV. We traded in our minivan several years ago because we needed the off-road capability and high ground clearance. Other members of the teams we lead ride in the vehicle with us. A year ago, there were seven of us (our family plus two others) and we all did it in my family's SUV.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:07:12 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:07:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:01:41 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:45:57 PM
Their accounting would have to change, which happens all the time in light of new regulations, that is just how it goes. If that changes the cost structure that much then don't be a contractor, simple as that.
Their work is barely profitable as it is, and hardly anyone stays anymore. You just set up another impediment for no good reason.Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:45:57 PM
As to the Corolla, I driven one all over the country and never had an issue, sounds more like the driver was at fault than the car. Keep in mind that people drove sedans all over this country until 30 years ago, its not rocket science.
So have I, bub. By the way, that was more than 30 years ago. No, it wasn't the driver's fault. I've slipped and slid in a Corolla on those roads after a rain, myself. Almost gotten stuck once or twice. Don't pretend that a sedan is just as good as a truck when it comes to bad roads. It isn't.Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 03:45:57 PM
What you drive in Mexico has nothing to do with US regulation. Our laws apply here, and if you want to drive here you have to abide by them. Driving in other countries is not our problem and is not an appropriate way to make policy.
But how do you expect me to get there from here?
It's 700 miles from here to the border, then another 350 after that. We can only afford to own one vehicle, and it's the evil SUV. We traded in our minivan several years ago because we needed the off-road capability and high ground clearance. Other members of the teams we lead ride in the vehicle with us. A year ago, there were seven of us (our family plus two others) and we all did it in my family's SUV.
You are free to drive your US legal road vehicle to the border, past that it is not a problem for US policymakers. There are all kinds of laws on the books already regarding that, your insurance DOES NOT have to cover you in another country, another country DOES NOT have to recognize your drivers licensee, and not every vehicle legal in another country is legal in the USA. There is no reason the US policy should be set based on people wanting to take vehicles out of the US. :pan:
And moreover 99% of miles driven by these machines are on paved roads to the mall, so undoing the regulatory distortion and making people drive actual passenger vehicles again makes sense.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:13:01 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:13:01 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:07:12 PM
You are free to drive your US legal road vehicle to the border, past that it is not a problem for US policymakers. There are all kinds of laws on the books already regarding that, your insurance DOES NOT have to cover you in another country, another country DOES NOT have to recognize your drivers licensee, and not every vehicle legal in another country is legal in the USA. There is no reason the US policy should be set based on people wanting to take vehicles out of the US.
You're still missing the point. US policymakers are not the ones saying on this thread that "SUVs need to be banned for on road use". You are. So I told you about a legitimate non-commercial, non-leisure use for an SUV that I have on a regular basis, and I asked you how you expect me to continue doing so. Nonsense about driver's licenses and liability insurance is not an answer to that question.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 04:26:39 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 04:26:39 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:13:01 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:07:12 PM
You are free to drive your US legal road vehicle to the border, past that it is not a problem for US policymakers. There are all kinds of laws on the books already regarding that, your insurance DOES NOT have to cover you in another country, another country DOES NOT have to recognize your drivers licensee, and not every vehicle legal in another country is legal in the USA. There is no reason the US policy should be set based on people wanting to take vehicles out of the US.
You're still missing the point. US policymakers are not the ones saying on this thread that "SUVs need to be banned for on road use". You are. So I told you about a legitimate non-commercial, non-leisure use for an SUV that I have on a regular basis, and I asked you how you expect me to continue doing so. Nonsense about driver's licenses and liability insurance is not an answer to that question.
I mean, the answer is pretty obvious. You just have to take three trips back and forth in a Corolla to get all your people and gear there, all in the name of fuel efficiency.
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:32:59 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:32:59 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 04:26:39 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:13:01 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:07:12 PM
You are free to drive your US legal road vehicle to the border, past that it is not a problem for US policymakers. There are all kinds of laws on the books already regarding that, your insurance DOES NOT have to cover you in another country, another country DOES NOT have to recognize your drivers licensee, and not every vehicle legal in another country is legal in the USA. There is no reason the US policy should be set based on people wanting to take vehicles out of the US.
You're still missing the point. US policymakers are not the ones saying on this thread that "SUVs need to be banned for on road use". You are. So I told you about a legitimate non-commercial, non-leisure use for an SUV that I have on a regular basis, and I asked you how you expect me to continue doing so. Nonsense about driver's licenses and liability insurance is not an answer to that question.
I mean, the answer is pretty obvious. You just have to take three trips back and forth in a Corolla to get all your people and gear there, all in the name of fuel efficiency.
Then what?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 04:36:58 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 04:36:58 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:32:59 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 04:26:39 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:13:01 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:07:12 PM
You are free to drive your US legal road vehicle to the border, past that it is not a problem for US policymakers. There are all kinds of laws on the books already regarding that, your insurance DOES NOT have to cover you in another country, another country DOES NOT have to recognize your drivers licensee, and not every vehicle legal in another country is legal in the USA. There is no reason the US policy should be set based on people wanting to take vehicles out of the US.
You're still missing the point. US policymakers are not the ones saying on this thread that "SUVs need to be banned for on road use". You are. So I told you about a legitimate non-commercial, non-leisure use for an SUV that I have on a regular basis, and I asked you how you expect me to continue doing so. Nonsense about driver's licenses and liability insurance is not an answer to that question.
I mean, the answer is pretty obvious. You just have to take three trips back and forth in a Corolla to get all your people and gear there, all in the name of fuel efficiency.
Then what?
Obviously your completely untouched, unstolen truck will be waiting at the border for you to take the rest of the way.
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:38:00 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:38:00 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 04:26:39 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:13:01 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:07:12 PM
You are free to drive your US legal road vehicle to the border, past that it is not a problem for US policymakers. There are all kinds of laws on the books already regarding that, your insurance DOES NOT have to cover you in another country, another country DOES NOT have to recognize your drivers licensee, and not every vehicle legal in another country is legal in the USA. There is no reason the US policy should be set based on people wanting to take vehicles out of the US.
You're still missing the point. US policymakers are not the ones saying on this thread that "SUVs need to be banned for on road use". You are. So I told you about a legitimate non-commercial, non-leisure use for an SUV that I have on a regular basis, and I asked you how you expect me to continue doing so. Nonsense about driver's licenses and liability insurance is not an answer to that question.
I mean, the answer is pretty obvious. You just have to take three trips back and forth in a Corolla to get all your people and gear there, all in the name of fuel efficiency.
Chris
First, its not so much about efficiency but safety for all drivers by removing commercial vehicles from passenger use. And the .0001% edge case would not outweigh the 99% for efficiency purposes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:40:54 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:40:54 PM
My 2006 Nissan Pathfinder is not a commercial vehicle, though. Also, it gets just barely worse mileage than the 2004 Dodge Grand Caravan we had before that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 04:41:10 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 04:41:10 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:38:00 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 04:26:39 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:13:01 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:07:12 PM
You are free to drive your US legal road vehicle to the border, past that it is not a problem for US policymakers. There are all kinds of laws on the books already regarding that, your insurance DOES NOT have to cover you in another country, another country DOES NOT have to recognize your drivers licensee, and not every vehicle legal in another country is legal in the USA. There is no reason the US policy should be set based on people wanting to take vehicles out of the US.
You're still missing the point. US policymakers are not the ones saying on this thread that "SUVs need to be banned for on road use". You are. So I told you about a legitimate non-commercial, non-leisure use for an SUV that I have on a regular basis, and I asked you how you expect me to continue doing so. Nonsense about driver's licenses and liability insurance is not an answer to that question.
I mean, the answer is pretty obvious. You just have to take three trips back and forth in a Corolla to get all your people and gear there, all in the name of fuel efficiency.
Chris
First, its not so much about efficiency but safety for all drivers by removing commercial vehicles from passenger use. And the .0001% edge case would not outweigh the 99% for efficiency purposes.
Against my better judgment... You're the one calling them commercial. I'm calling them just another vehicle. My car is far more safe to be on the road than a 1993 Ford Taurus with no ABS, yet you don't want my car out there.
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:45:31 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:45:31 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 04:41:10 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:38:00 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 04:26:39 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:13:01 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:07:12 PM
You are free to drive your US legal road vehicle to the border, past that it is not a problem for US policymakers. There are all kinds of laws on the books already regarding that, your insurance DOES NOT have to cover you in another country, another country DOES NOT have to recognize your drivers licensee, and not every vehicle legal in another country is legal in the USA. There is no reason the US policy should be set based on people wanting to take vehicles out of the US.
You're still missing the point. US policymakers are not the ones saying on this thread that "SUVs need to be banned for on road use". You are. So I told you about a legitimate non-commercial, non-leisure use for an SUV that I have on a regular basis, and I asked you how you expect me to continue doing so. Nonsense about driver's licenses and liability insurance is not an answer to that question.
I mean, the answer is pretty obvious. You just have to take three trips back and forth in a Corolla to get all your people and gear there, all in the name of fuel efficiency.
Chris
First, its not so much about efficiency but safety for all drivers by removing commercial vehicles from passenger use. And the .0001% edge case would not outweigh the 99% for efficiency purposes.
Against my better judgment... You're the one calling them commercial. I'm calling them just another vehicle. My car is far more safe to be on the road than a 1993 Ford Taurus with no ABS, yet you don't want my car out there.
Chris
That is not the relevant comparison, because the sedans produced in response to this would have ABS, ESC, and all the other goodies. It is not a mandate to use old technology, that is a straw-man. Going forward, vehicles sold would still have the same safety technology AND fix the roll risk, etc. from high center of gravity vehicles.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:46:53 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:46:53 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:40:54 PM
My 2006 Nissan Pathfinder is not a commercial vehicle, though. Also, it gets just barely worse mileage than the 2004 Dodge Grand Caravan we had before that.
Also, our SUV has one more seat than our minivan did. Last year's trip would have required two vehicles instead of one if we hadn't gotten our SUV.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:50:30 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:50:30 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:46:53 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:40:54 PM
My 2006 Nissan Pathfinder is not a commercial vehicle, though. Also, it gets just barely worse mileage than the 2004 Dodge Grand Caravan we had before that.
Also, our SUV has one more seat than our minivan did. Last year's trip would have required two vehicles instead of one if we hadn't gotten our SUV.
You are apparently not familiar with the seating capacity of the old school cars. SUVs today seat 8 at the most, with captain's chairs they seat 7. The classic American Full Size sedan sat 6, so even there your average SUV has a passenger advantage of 1. The classic American Full Size Station Wagon sat 9 in most cases, which is more than any SUV seats today. Ford made some that actually sat 10.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 04:52:38 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 04:52:38 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:45:31 PM
That is not the relevant comparison, because the sedans produced in response to this would have ABS, ESC, and all the other goodies. It is not a mandate to use old technology, that is a straw-man. Going forward, vehicles sold would still have the same safety technology AND fix the roll risk, etc. from high center of gravity vehicles.
But are you also banning 1993 Ford Tauruses? (Tauri?)
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:50:30 PM
You are apparently not familiar with the seating capacity of the old school cars. SUVs today seat 8 at the most, with captain's chairs they seat 7. The classic American Full Size sedan sat 6, so even there your average SUV has a passenger advantage of 1. The classic American Full Size Station Wagon sat 9 in most cases, which is more than any SUV seats today. Ford made some that actually sat 10.
So now, in the name of safety, we're seating the front middle seat?!?!?
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:56:58 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:56:58 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 04:52:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:50:30 PM
You are apparently not familiar with the seating capacity of the old school cars. SUVs today seat 8 at the most, with captain's chairs they seat 7. The classic American Full Size sedan sat 6, so even there your average SUV has a passenger advantage of 1. The classic American Full Size Station Wagon sat 9 in most cases, which is more than any SUV seats today. Ford made some that actually sat 10.
So now, in the name of safety, we're seating the front middle seat?!?!?
:-D Yeah, that's what I was thinking!
If my car's middle row were a bench, it would be an eight-seat vehicle. If the front row were a bench, it would be nine. That has nothing to do with its being an SUV.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:58:01 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:58:01 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 04:52:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:45:31 PM
That is not the relevant comparison, because the sedans produced in response to this would have ABS, ESC, and all the other goodies. It is not a mandate to use old technology, that is a straw-man. Going forward, vehicles sold would still have the same safety technology AND fix the roll risk, etc. from high center of gravity vehicles.
But are you also banning 1993 Ford Tauruses? (Tauri?)Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:50:30 PM
You are apparently not familiar with the seating capacity of the old school cars. SUVs today seat 8 at the most, with captain's chairs they seat 7. The classic American Full Size sedan sat 6, so even there your average SUV has a passenger advantage of 1. The classic American Full Size Station Wagon sat 9 in most cases, which is more than any SUV seats today. Ford made some that actually sat 10.
So now, in the name of safety, we're seating the front middle seat?!?!?
Chris
Obviously modern vehicles would have to meet modern safety standards, again, straw-man. The front middle is really not any different than the front passenger.
Most of the bad reputation of the front middle is due to the lack of a shoulder belt, restraint, and airbag. All three can be included in any modern safety package, headrest folding out of the way when not in use if desired. Not that hard.
Let me also point out however that the passenger argument has its limits as most SUVs don't seat any more than 5.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:59:32 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:59:32 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:56:58 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 04:52:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:50:30 PM
You are apparently not familiar with the seating capacity of the old school cars. SUVs today seat 8 at the most, with captain's chairs they seat 7. The classic American Full Size sedan sat 6, so even there your average SUV has a passenger advantage of 1. The classic American Full Size Station Wagon sat 9 in most cases, which is more than any SUV seats today. Ford made some that actually sat 10.
So now, in the name of safety, we're seating the front middle seat?!?!?
:-D Yeah, that's what I was thinking!
If my car's middle row were a bench, it would be an eight-seat vehicle. If the front row were a bench, it would be nine. That has nothing to do with its being an SUV.
Obviously not? The point is that seating was actually MORE plentiful in the era before the SUV, and there is nothing inherent to the SUV as far as seating more is concerned, so yes, you have justified my point that the SUV is not required for more seating. :spin:
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SeriesE on March 30, 2021, 05:00:39 PM
Post by: SeriesE on March 30, 2021, 05:00:39 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 02:05:54 PM
So, what are contractors supposed to use to get between their house and the grocery store? What are farmers supposed to drive to go to church? How is a person with a large lawn and garden supposed to haul landscaping materials from Lowe's to his property?
For the answer to the first 2 questions, those people can still drive their pickup trucks for personal purposes. The trucks are still has a commercial/work purpose; the non-commercial usage part is basically incidental in the lifetime of those trucks. My original thought was only to disincentivize pickup trucks being used as mall crawlers, not completely ban them.
As for the last question, they can rent the trucks from the hardware store when needed and own/lease/finance a more passenger-oriented vehicle for normal use.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 05:00:54 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 05:00:54 PM
You're right. We need bigger SUVs so they can fit more people. A bunch of miniature buses toodling around.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 05:03:16 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 05:03:16 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:58:01 PM
Obviously modern vehicles would have to meet modern safety standards, again, straw-man. The front middle is really not any different than the front passenger.
Most of the bad reputation of the front middle is due to the lack of a shoulder belt, restraint, and airbag. All three can be included in any modern safety package, headrest folding out of the way when not in use if desired. Not that hard.
Let me also point out however that the passenger argument has its limits as most SUVs don't seat any more than 5.
Again, are you also banning 1993 Ford Tauruses? '57 Chevys?
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: oscar on March 30, 2021, 05:04:06 PM
Post by: oscar on March 30, 2021, 05:04:06 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:45:31 PM
That is not the relevant comparison, because the sedans produced in response to this would have ABS, ESC, and all the other goodies. It is not a mandate to use old technology, that is a straw-man. Going forward, vehicles sold would still have the same safety technology AND fix the roll risk, etc. from high center of gravity vehicles.
Your high-center-of-gravity assumption may not always be true. My compact SUV has relatively high ground clearance, but that's offset by its close-to-the-ground flat-four engine.
BTW, that fancy (and pricey) new Hummer electric pickup Chris mentioned might have a low center of gravity for similar reasons, with its heavy batteries all under the passenger compartment and cargo bed.
Quote from: SeriesE on March 30, 2021, 05:00:39 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 02:05:54 PM
So, what are contractors supposed to use to get between their house and the grocery store? What are farmers supposed to drive to go to church? How is a person with a large lawn and garden supposed to haul landscaping materials from Lowe's to his property?
For the answer to the first 2 questions, those people can still drive their pickup trucks for personal purposes. The trucks are still has a commercial/work purpose; the non-commercial usage part is basically incidental in the lifetime of those trucks. My original thought was only to disincentivize pickup trucks being used as mall crawlers, not completely ban them.
Isn't HighwayStar's thought that pickup trucks/SUVs disappear from the road, not just "disincentivized"?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 05:07:59 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2021, 05:07:59 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 30, 2021, 05:04:06 PM
BTW, that fancy (and pricey) new Hummer electric SUV Chris mentioned might have a low center of gravity for similar reasons, with its heavy batteries all under the passenger compartment.
I think maybe HighwayStar's main issue is that if their Corolla got into an accident with the Hummer, the Corolla would be an accordion. Maybe the real ban should be small vehicles that can't withstand a larger vehicle's impact.
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 05:14:43 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 05:14:43 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 30, 2021, 05:07:59 PMQuote from: oscar on March 30, 2021, 05:04:06 PM
BTW, that fancy (and pricey) new Hummer electric SUV Chris mentioned might have a low center of gravity for similar reasons, with its heavy batteries all under the passenger compartment.
I think maybe HighwayStar's main issue is that if their Corolla got into an accident with the Hummer, the Corolla would be an accordion. Maybe the real ban should be small vehicles that can't withstand a larger vehicle's impact.
Chris
That is wasteful of fuel and does not solve for the rollover risk, relatively poor braking, handling issues, etc. of SUVs. Yes collision compatibility matters, although the type of car that would be satisfying peoples desire for large cars would obviously not be a Corolla, but something more akin to the Panther Platform, which actually performed well in collision testing.
The point is that SUVs only replaced the full size sedan due to unintended regulatory effects, and that should be undone.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 05:16:58 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 05:16:58 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 30, 2021, 05:04:06 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:45:31 PM
That is not the relevant comparison, because the sedans produced in response to this would have ABS, ESC, and all the other goodies. It is not a mandate to use old technology, that is a straw-man. Going forward, vehicles sold would still have the same safety technology AND fix the roll risk, etc. from high center of gravity vehicles.
Your high-center-of-gravity assumption may not always be true. My compact SUV has relatively high ground clearance, but that's offset by its close-to-the-ground flat-four engine.
BTW, that fancy (and pricey) new Hummer electric pickup Chris mentioned might have a low center of gravity for similar reasons, with its heavy batteries all under the passenger compartment and cargo bed.Quote from: SeriesE on March 30, 2021, 05:00:39 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 02:05:54 PM
So, what are contractors supposed to use to get between their house and the grocery store? What are farmers supposed to drive to go to church? How is a person with a large lawn and garden supposed to haul landscaping materials from Lowe's to his property?
For the answer to the first 2 questions, those people can still drive their pickup trucks for personal purposes. The trucks are still has a commercial/work purpose; the non-commercial usage part is basically incidental in the lifetime of those trucks. My original thought was only to disincentivize pickup trucks being used as mall crawlers, not completely ban them.
Isn't HighwayStar's thought that pickup trucks/SUVs disappear from the road, not just "disincentivized"?
It does not matter where you put the weight, it will always have a higher center of gravity than an equivalent design in sedan form. It is a dead weight loss. And yes, my point is that they need to be related to what they are, non-passenger vehicles that should be treated as such. Sure you might drive one for commercial use, but not for going to the mall (which is 99% of what they actually do, commercials and fanboys aside)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SeriesE on March 30, 2021, 05:47:22 PM
Post by: SeriesE on March 30, 2021, 05:47:22 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 30, 2021, 05:04:06 PMQuote from: SeriesE on March 30, 2021, 05:00:39 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 02:05:54 PM
So, what are contractors supposed to use to get between their house and the grocery store? What are farmers supposed to drive to go to church? How is a person with a large lawn and garden supposed to haul landscaping materials from Lowe's to his property?
For the answer to the first 2 questions, those people can still drive their pickup trucks for personal purposes. The trucks are still has a commercial/work purpose; the non-commercial usage part is basically incidental in the lifetime of those trucks. My original thought was only to disincentivize pickup trucks being used as mall crawlers, not completely ban them.
Isn't HighwayStar's thought that pickup trucks/SUVs disappear from the road, not just "disincentivized"?
Yeah, that's what HighwayStar's original thought. My thought on that is since a complete ban might be impractical, disincentivizing ownership of such vehicles might be a better approach to achieve practically the same result.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 05:56:39 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 05:56:39 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 05:16:58 PM
It sounds like what you really want is safer SUVs. Not no SUVs.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:07:12 PM
99% of miles driven by these machines are on paved roads to the mall
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 05:16:58 PM
going to the mall (which is 99% of what they actually do
You sure throw that number around a lot. Where did you get the data?
Also, that cargo space sure does help when buying a washing machine from the mall department store.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on March 30, 2021, 06:19:01 PM
Post by: formulanone on March 30, 2021, 06:19:01 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:58:01 PM
Obviously modern vehicles would have to meet modern safety standards, again, straw-man. The front middle is really not any different than the front passenger.
Most of the bad reputation of the front middle is due to the lack of a shoulder belt, restraint, and airbag. All three can be included in any modern safety package, headrest folding out of the way when not in use if desired. Not that hard.
Let me also point out however that the passenger argument has its limits as most SUVs don't seat any more than 5.
Nobody wants to sit in the middle front seat for the same psychological and physiological reasons they don't like middle seats on airplanes. Also, people seem to like their center armrests and the cubby volume store things. I never hear people complain about that feature and hope it goes away.
I'm not a fan of most SUVs (give me the nimble behavior of most cars on most any day), but along with the proliferation of trucks, they're here to stay and the public has spoken.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 30, 2021, 06:22:47 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 30, 2021, 06:22:47 PM
Sorry, but this discussion is kind of pointless. SUVs have rapidly and widely proliferated in the USA over the last three or so decades. There are tens if not hundreds of millions of them on the road today. They're here to stay, and it would be next to impossible to get them banned. SUV owners don't really care about how you feel about their vehicles. Just being honest.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 06:57:53 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 06:57:53 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 30, 2021, 06:22:47 PM
Sorry, but this discussion is kind of pointless. SUVs have rapidly and widely proliferated in the USA over the last three or so decades. There are tens if not hundreds of millions of them on the road today. They're here to stay, and it would be next to impossible to get them banned. SUV owners don't really care about how you feel about their vehicles. Just being honest.
I don't expect them to care, but the idea that you cannot get a ban on them is ludicrous, there have been pushes in that direction before and we have the prospect of a much more environmentally minded administration in the future now as well. The point is not to convince them to quit driving them but to lobby congress to prohibit additional sales. Once you cut off the supply the existing stock will naturally dwindle with time, it does not matter how many are on the road today, once you stop the influx that's it. Throw in something like cash for clunkers 2.0 to buy old ones off the market and call it good.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 30, 2021, 07:55:21 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 30, 2021, 07:55:21 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 06:57:53 PMQuote from: interstatefan990 on March 30, 2021, 06:22:47 PM
Sorry, but this discussion is kind of pointless. SUVs have rapidly and widely proliferated in the USA over the last three or so decades. There are tens if not hundreds of millions of them on the road today. They're here to stay, and it would be next to impossible to get them banned. SUV owners don't really care about how you feel about their vehicles. Just being honest.
I don't expect them to care, but the idea that you cannot get a ban on them is ludicrous, there have been pushes in that direction before and we have the prospect of a much more environmentally minded administration in the future now as well. The point is not to convince them to quit driving them but to lobby congress to prohibit additional sales. Once you cut off the supply the existing stock will naturally dwindle with time, it does not matter how many are on the road today, once you stop the influx that's it. Throw in something like cash for clunkers 2.0 to buy old ones off the market and call it good.
Okay let's say you do somehow get them banned. You can take the person out of the SUV, but not the SUV out of the person. How do you deal with the opposition from the millions of SUV owners and families? From automakers and industry lobbyists? Manage the massive negative economical impact? Classify what is specifically an SUV? We'd have a ton of lawsuits on our hands.
Banning SUVs and getting them off the roads is like a gigantic maze with dozens of hurdles, and not as straightforward as you're making it out to be.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hbelkins on March 30, 2021, 08:48:51 PM
Post by: hbelkins on March 30, 2021, 08:48:51 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:38:06 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 02:24:54 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 02:14:35 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 29, 2021, 01:24:26 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
- SUVs need to be banned for on road use
:rolleyes: How do you get them to wherever you think they should be used?
Chris
Not really an issue, once you make them illegal for road use they will cease to be manufactured in quantity as road vehicles. I suppose you can grandfather the existing stock in in the interim.[/list]
I'm curious how I would have been able to drive a couple weeks ago when I had 27" of snow at my house and my newly-mandated Honda Civic-type car couldn't get through it?
Chris
People always pull out some kind of extreme edge case to try and justify those ridiculous things, but the reality is that 99% of miles driven can easily be accommodated with a sedan. I have spent years living in northern snowy climates driving a FWD sedan and never needed an SUV. Usually if it snows 27" you just clear the driveway and wait for the road to be plowed anyway. The once in a decade storm is not a justification for driving that thing all the time. Believe it or not people in the 70s did just fine without them.
The SUV only came into existence as a result of unintended consequences of regulation, so it should meet its demise by regulation. End of story.
So, then, you would prefer drivers to put their children in the beds of their pickup trucks to transport them somewhere, if the driver likes the height and comfort and visibility an SUV provides, along with the ability to travel in adverse weather conditions when other vehicles can't?
It's a pain for me to get in and out of low-to-the-ground vehicles. I can't even imagine what it would be like if I still owned my old Z-28. The higher ground clearance of an SUV or a pickup truck allows me to see road conditions better and makes me a safer driver.
I'd rather ban the little econoboxes that fold up like accordions if you hit a deer with them.
(Actually, I'd rather not ban anything of that sort. Let freedom and the free market reign.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 08:54:10 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 08:54:10 PM
Markets do not always produce good outcomes, and in any case the SUV is not the result of a free market anyway. Putting people in a pickup truck bed, etc. is already illegal so we need not concern ourselves with that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on March 30, 2021, 08:58:59 PM
Post by: formulanone on March 30, 2021, 08:58:59 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 08:54:10 PM
Markets do not always produce good outcomes, and in any case the SUV is not the result of a free market anyway.
Then why didn't the SUV fad go away?
You could ague that our choices are limited now, but it's currently the culmination of 25-30 years of past buying habits.
(I'll take the response off the air.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hbelkins on March 30, 2021, 09:12:41 PM
Post by: hbelkins on March 30, 2021, 09:12:41 PM
I'm beginning to think HighwayStar is a troll and the user name is a waste of a perfectly good Deep Purple song.
He's pining for banning SUVs in the name of fuel economy, yet he brings up a 1993 Crown Vic. Those things were gas guzzlers. I'd rather have the MPG of a modern SUV than that of the Crown Vic (or of my dad's 1967 Chevy Impala with the big V-8 engine.)
He's pining for banning SUVs in the name of fuel economy, yet he brings up a 1993 Crown Vic. Those things were gas guzzlers. I'd rather have the MPG of a modern SUV than that of the Crown Vic (or of my dad's 1967 Chevy Impala with the big V-8 engine.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on March 30, 2021, 09:54:58 PM
Post by: webny99 on March 30, 2021, 09:54:58 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 30, 2021, 10:54:45 AM
... on the nearby thru street that parallels our neighborhood people routinely do 60 mph in a 35-mph zone.
My area specializes in suburban connector roads posted obtusely low at 35 mph, so I can think of several 35 mph zones where I'd feel comfortable doing 60 mph. Probably not the case in northern VA, though.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 30, 2021, 10:02:32 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 30, 2021, 10:02:32 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 06:57:53 PMQuote from: interstatefan990 on March 30, 2021, 06:22:47 PM
Sorry, but this discussion is kind of pointless. SUVs have rapidly and widely proliferated in the USA over the last three or so decades. There are tens if not hundreds of millions of them on the road today. They're here to stay, and it would be next to impossible to get them banned. SUV owners don't really care about how you feel about their vehicles. Just being honest.
I don't expect them to care, but the idea that you cannot get a ban on them is ludicrous, there have been pushes in that direction before and we have the prospect of a much more environmentally minded administration in the future now as well. The point is not to convince them to quit driving them but to lobby congress to prohibit additional sales. Once you cut off the supply the existing stock will naturally dwindle with time, it does not matter how many are on the road today, once you stop the influx that's it. Throw in something like cash for clunkers 2.0 to buy old ones off the market and call it good.
I mean you CAN ban them. But it would be extremely unpopular.
And how can you claim to be concerned about the environment yet advocate for German style autobahns?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 10:15:58 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 10:15:58 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 30, 2021, 10:02:32 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 06:57:53 PMQuote from: interstatefan990 on March 30, 2021, 06:22:47 PM
Sorry, but this discussion is kind of pointless. SUVs have rapidly and widely proliferated in the USA over the last three or so decades. There are tens if not hundreds of millions of them on the road today. They're here to stay, and it would be next to impossible to get them banned. SUV owners don't really care about how you feel about their vehicles. Just being honest.
I don't expect them to care, but the idea that you cannot get a ban on them is ludicrous, there have been pushes in that direction before and we have the prospect of a much more environmentally minded administration in the future now as well. The point is not to convince them to quit driving them but to lobby congress to prohibit additional sales. Once you cut off the supply the existing stock will naturally dwindle with time, it does not matter how many are on the road today, once you stop the influx that's it. Throw in something like cash for clunkers 2.0 to buy old ones off the market and call it good.
I mean you CAN ban them. But it would be extremely unpopular.
And how can you claim to be concerned about the environment yet advocate for German style autobahns?
To be honest the German style autobahns are not necessarily bad for fuel economy. They imply people will drive at whatever speed they choose, which for most people will be close to their existing speed. And keep in mind our existing vehicles are engineered for our speed limits, some German Automobiles do very well on fuel at high speeds. In any case I do not consider speed a dead weight loss like ride height, and the offset of more aerodynamic vehicles will compensate for whatever speed we gain. Win Win.
With this many responses I feel like I won the "unpopular opinion" thread. :spin: :coffee:
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: I-39 on March 30, 2021, 10:17:59 PM
Post by: I-39 on March 30, 2021, 10:17:59 PM
1. Gas taxes/other road fees should always be, without exception, indexed to inflation
2. WisDOT massively overbuilt their highway system.
3. I-69 between Indianapolis and Texas is a massive waste
4. The forthcoming I-490 tollway in Chicagoland isn't needed.
2. WisDOT massively overbuilt their highway system.
3. I-69 between Indianapolis and Texas is a massive waste
4. The forthcoming I-490 tollway in Chicagoland isn't needed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 10:20:49 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 10:20:49 PM
Quote from: I-39 on March 30, 2021, 10:17:59 PM
1. Gas taxes/other road fees should always be, without exception, indexed to inflation
2. WisDOT massively overbuilt their highway system.
3. I-69 between Indianapolis and Texas is a massive waste
4. The forthcoming I-490 tollway in Chicagoland isn't needed.
The economist in me agrees with 1 :sombrero:
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 10:21:33 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 10:21:33 PM
Quote from: I-39 on March 30, 2021, 10:17:59 PMIt seems like most of this forum agree that the AR and MS sections are a waste. Not sure what the opinion is on for TN, but I think Indy-Evansville is useful for the state.
3. I-69 between Indianapolis and Texas is a massive waste
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 30, 2021, 10:35:10 PM
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 30, 2021, 10:35:10 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 10:21:33 PMWith the new legislation that just passed, perhaps Arkansas doesn't deserve the Interstate after all.
It seems like most of this forum agree that the AR and MS sections are a waste.
Well, that and that 30 and 40 work perfectly fine between Little Rock and Memphis. I mean, sure, Pine Bluff, but that's already got a spur to it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 10:39:10 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 10:39:10 PM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 30, 2021, 10:35:10 PM369-30-40 looks shorter and is good enough for Tenaha-Memphis. Maybe some improvements could be made with increased traffic, but it doesn't need a parallel interstate. Also, when I-57 gets extended to Little Rock, that would be the default route to Indianapolis from Houston via 57-70, as 69's route is longer. 40-65 between Memphis and Louisville could use some improvements for the truck heavy traffic (I think 65 is 6 laned from Nashville to Louisville now, correct me if I'm wrong), and could continue to serve the role as the I-71 corridor connector to Memphis without the help of I-69 in KY and TN.Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 10:21:33 PMWith the new legislation that just passed, perhaps Arkansas doesn't deserve the Interstate after all.
It seems like most of this forum agree that the AR and MS sections are a waste.
Well, that and that 30 and 40 work perfectly fine between Little Rock and Memphis. I mean, sure, Pine Bluff, but that's already got a spur to it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 30, 2021, 10:48:05 PM
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 30, 2021, 10:48:05 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 10:39:10 PMWhich leads to another unpopular opinion: I-69 should just take over I-30 from Texarkana north to Little Rock, then have a long-ass concurrency with 40 and such. Sure, it's 139 miles, but whatever, it uses less road. That old stub next to 269 could just be an extension of 269.Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 30, 2021, 10:35:10 PM369-30-40 looks shorter and is good enough for Tenaha-Memphis. Maybe some improvements could be made with increased traffic, but it doesn't need a parallel interstate. Also, when I-57 gets extended to Little Rock, that would be the default route to Indianapolis from Houston via 57-70, as 69's route is longer. 40-65 between Memphis and Louisville could use some improvements for the truck heavy traffic (I think 65 is 6 laned from Nashville to Louisville now, correct me if I'm wrong), and could continue to serve the role as the I-71 corridor connector to Memphis without the help of I-69 in KY and TN.Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 10:21:33 PMWith the new legislation that just passed, perhaps Arkansas doesn't deserve the Interstate after all.
It seems like most of this forum agree that the AR and MS sections are a waste.
Well, that and that 30 and 40 work perfectly fine between Little Rock and Memphis. I mean, sure, Pine Bluff, but that's already got a spur to it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 10:58:21 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 10:58:21 PM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 30, 2021, 10:48:05 PMYou could truncate I-30 at Texarkana if you'll have I-69 take over it to Little Rock. This will shorten concurrent sections to have one only with I-40. Yes, this will make I-30 even shorter and intrastate for a x0, but that can be renumbered if an only 220 mile long x0 is a issue. After all, the I-30 corridor was originally an odd number in the US routes system, as US 67.Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 10:39:10 PMWhich leads to another unpopular opinion: I-69 should just take over I-30 from Texarkana north to Little Rock, then have a long-ass concurrency with 40 and such. Sure, it's 139 miles, but whatever, it uses less road. That old stub next to 269 could just be an extension of 269.Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 30, 2021, 10:35:10 PM369-30-40 looks shorter and is good enough for Tenaha-Memphis. Maybe some improvements could be made with increased traffic, but it doesn't need a parallel interstate. Also, when I-57 gets extended to Little Rock, that would be the default route to Indianapolis from Houston via 57-70, as 69's route is longer. 40-65 between Memphis and Louisville could use some improvements for the truck heavy traffic (I think 65 is 6 laned from Nashville to Louisville now, correct me if I'm wrong), and could continue to serve the role as the I-71 corridor connector to Memphis without the help of I-69 in KY and TN.Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 10:21:33 PMWith the new legislation that just passed, perhaps Arkansas doesn't deserve the Interstate after all.
It seems like most of this forum agree that the AR and MS sections are a waste.
Well, that and that 30 and 40 work perfectly fine between Little Rock and Memphis. I mean, sure, Pine Bluff, but that's already got a spur to it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: I-55 on March 30, 2021, 11:47:01 PM
Post by: I-55 on March 30, 2021, 11:47:01 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 10:39:10 PMQuote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 30, 2021, 10:35:10 PM369-30-40 looks shorter and is good enough for Tenaha-Memphis. Maybe some improvements could be made with increased traffic, but it doesn't need a parallel interstate. Also, when I-57 gets extended to Little Rock, that would be the default route to Indianapolis from Houston via 57-70, as 69's route is longer. 40-65 between Memphis and Louisville could use some improvements for the truck heavy traffic (I think 65 is 6 laned from Nashville to Louisville now, correct me if I'm wrong), and could continue to serve the role as the I-71 corridor connector to Memphis without the help of I-69 in KY and TN.Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 10:21:33 PMWith the new legislation that just passed, perhaps Arkansas doesn't deserve the Interstate after all.
It seems like most of this forum agree that the AR and MS sections are a waste.
Well, that and that 30 and 40 work perfectly fine between Little Rock and Memphis. I mean, sure, Pine Bluff, but that's already got a spur to it.
I-65 is six laned through the entirety of Kentucky now but is not complete between basically the state line and Goodlettsville, though TN is beginning to widen at least an exit south of the state line.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 12:09:05 AM
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 12:09:05 AM
REALLY hot take:
Yes, the Claiborne Expressway should be closed. But it should not be demolished. It should be left as a sort of Grafitti Highway.
There's too much art down underneath it that would be lost if it were simply demolished.
Yes, the Claiborne Expressway should be closed. But it should not be demolished. It should be left as a sort of Grafitti Highway.
There's too much art down underneath it that would be lost if it were simply demolished.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 31, 2021, 06:31:50 AM
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 31, 2021, 06:31:50 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 30, 2021, 08:48:51 PM
It's a pain for me to get in and out of low-to-the-ground vehicles. I can't even imagine what it would be like if I still owned my old Z-28. The higher ground clearance of an SUV or a pickup truck allows me to see road conditions better and makes me a safer driver.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned CUVs, which are a thing, and are often outwardly indistinguishable from SUVs, but are different because they're on car bodies instead of truck bodies. I actually prefer to call them tall station wagons, because that's pretty much what they are (which isn't a bad thing).
Quote from: hbelkins on March 30, 2021, 09:12:41 PM
He's pining for banning SUVs in the name of fuel economy, yet he brings up a 1993 Crown Vic. Those things were gas guzzlers. I'd rather have the MPG of a modern SUV than that of the Crown Vic (or of my dad's 1967 Chevy Impala with the big V-8 engine.)
Maybe a better idea would be stronger efficiency and safety standards for SUVs. It's not like every SUV is a 9-MPG Ford Excursion, anyway.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kernals12 on March 31, 2021, 07:47:27 AM
Post by: kernals12 on March 31, 2021, 07:47:27 AM
Car culture is good
Urban freeways are good
Trains are a massive waste of money
Urban freeways are good
Trains are a massive waste of money
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on March 31, 2021, 07:54:26 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on March 31, 2021, 07:54:26 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on March 31, 2021, 07:47:27 AMGiven your bio we knew that already. I disagree to an extent...
Car culture is good
Urban freeways are good
Trains are a massive waste of money
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 10:33:25 AM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 10:33:25 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on March 31, 2021, 07:47:27 AM
Car culture is good
Urban freeways are good
Trains are a massive waste of money
Hear ye hear ye :clap:
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 11:14:25 AM
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 11:14:25 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:38:00 PM
First, its not so much about efficiency but safety for all drivers by removing commercial vehicles from passenger use.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 05:14:43 PM
That is wasteful of fuel and does not solve for the rollover risk, relatively poor braking, handling issues, etc. of SUVs.
I don't see that your assertions are backed up by actual data.
Compare the 2017 Nissan Quest minivan to these three seven-passenger SUVs from the same year, below. I fail to see why you'd advocate for removing the SUVs from the road but keep the minivan.
(https://i.imgur.com/TLdRGJU.png)
Acura MDX – Has lower ground clearance and slightly worse fuel economy, but has an advantage in both of the other categories I measured, plus AWD
Hyundai Santa Fe – Has a 2mpg lower fuel economy, but has an advantage in every other category I measured, plus AWD
Mitsubishi Outlander – Has an advantage in every category I measured, same 2WD as the minivan
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 11:16:11 AM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 11:16:11 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 11:14:25 AMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 04:38:00 PM
First, its not so much about efficiency but safety for all drivers by removing commercial vehicles from passenger use.Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 05:14:43 PM
That is wasteful of fuel and does not solve for the rollover risk, relatively poor braking, handling issues, etc. of SUVs.
I don't see that your assertions are backed up by actual data.
Compare the 2017 Nissan Quest minivan to these three seven-passenger SUVs from the same year, below. I fail to see why you'd advocate for removing the SUVs from the road but keep the minivan.
(https://i.imgur.com/TLdRGJU.png)
Acura MDX – Has lower ground clearance and slightly worse fuel economy, but has an advantage in both of the other categories I measured, plus AWD
Hyundai Santa Fe – Has a 2mpg lower fuel economy, but has an advantage in every other category I measured, plus AWD
Mitsubishi Outlander – Has an advantage in every category I measured, same 2WD as the minivan
The regulation is not to keep the minivan but get rid of the SUV, you picked that up from someone else. Its more of a mandate for sedans and station wagons.
Title: Re: Gas-prone "Sport Utility Vehicles"
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 11:17:57 AM
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 11:17:57 AM
This better not derail into a Gas-prone "Sport Utility Vehicles" thread.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kernals12 on March 31, 2021, 11:44:36 AM
Post by: kernals12 on March 31, 2021, 11:44:36 AM
SUVs are about as tall as the passenger cars made before 1948. We're just rediscovering the benefits of height after Detroit sold us on longer, lower, wider. Also, the sedan bodystyle has always been stupid, why waste all that space above the trunk lid? The station wagon should've been the default body style from the get go.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 12:03:18 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 12:03:18 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
SUVs need to be banned for on road use
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 11:16:11 AMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 11:14:25 AM
I fail to see why you'd advocate for removing the SUVs from the road but keep the minivan.
The regulation is not to keep the minivan but get rid of the SUV, you picked that up from someone else. Its more of a mandate for sedans and station wagons.
Wrong. You said SUVs should be removed from the road.
But anyway. What reason do you have for making someone buy a minivan instead of an SUV, when the reality is that there are SUVs that outperform minivans in the matters you mentioned? Or do you think nobody should be allowed to have a minivan either?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 31, 2021, 12:47:40 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 31, 2021, 12:47:40 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 12:03:18 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
SUVs need to be banned for on road useQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 11:16:11 AMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 11:14:25 AM
I fail to see why you'd advocate for removing the SUVs from the road but keep the minivan.
The regulation is not to keep the minivan but get rid of the SUV, you picked that up from someone else. Its more of a mandate for sedans and station wagons.
Wrong. You said SUVs should be removed from the road.
But anyway. What reason do you have for making someone buy a minivan instead of an SUV, when the reality is that there are SUVs that outperform minivans in the matters you mentioned? Or do you think nobody should be allowed to have a minivan either?
He also never answered my question about 1993 Ford Tuaruses despite me bringing it up three times. I would have to assume any non-ABS car would have to be removed from the road, right?
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 12:51:25 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 12:51:25 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 31, 2021, 12:47:40 PM
He also never answered my question about 1993 Ford Tuaruses despite me bringing it up three times. I would have to assume any non-ABS car would have to be removed from the road, right?
I think his solution to things like that is one of attrition.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 12:56:23 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 12:56:23 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 12:51:25 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 31, 2021, 12:47:40 PM
He also never answered my question about 1993 Ford Tuaruses despite me bringing it up three times. I would have to assume any non-ABS car would have to be removed from the road, right?
I think his solution to things like that is one of attrition.
Exactly, nothing but one straw-man after another here. No one is saying that all "unsafe" cars need to be removed from the road now. Frankly there are already not THAT many cars left without ABS, it was mandatory in 2005 and common for some years before that. And the 93 Taurus is still less prone to roll over than a 1993 SUV that also lacks ABS, go figure. Cut off the pipeline and within 20 years most of them will be off the road. Combine a cash for clunker program and you can really reduce the number.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 31, 2021, 01:01:07 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 31, 2021, 01:01:07 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 12:56:23 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 12:51:25 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 31, 2021, 12:47:40 PM
He also never answered my question about 1993 Ford Tuaruses despite me bringing it up three times. I would have to assume any non-ABS car would have to be removed from the road, right?
I think his solution to things like that is one of attrition.
Exactly, nothing but one straw-man after another here. No one is saying that all "unsafe" cars need to be removed from the road now. Frankly there are already not THAT many cars left without ABS, it was mandatory in 2005 and common for some years before that. And the 93 Taurus is still less prone to roll over than a 1993 SUV that also lacks ABS, go figure. Cut off the pipeline and within 20 years most of them will be off the road. Combine a cash for clunker program and you can really reduce the number.
It's not a straw man when our argument is that your dismissal of SUVs is arbitrary. To come up with other examples that you don't feel merit exclusion is hardly a faulty argument. Despite my better judgment, what is your view on motorcycles since your main argument is re: safety?
Chris
Title: Re: Gas-prone "Sport Utility Vehicles"
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 01:05:29 PM
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 01:05:29 PM
Could we just spin this whole SUV discussion off into a different thread?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 01:09:11 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 01:09:11 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 31, 2021, 01:01:07 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 12:56:23 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 12:51:25 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 31, 2021, 12:47:40 PM
He also never answered my question about 1993 Ford Tuaruses despite me bringing it up three times. I would have to assume any non-ABS car would have to be removed from the road, right?
I think his solution to things like that is one of attrition.
Exactly, nothing but one straw-man after another here. No one is saying that all "unsafe" cars need to be removed from the road now. Frankly there are already not THAT many cars left without ABS, it was mandatory in 2005 and common for some years before that. And the 93 Taurus is still less prone to roll over than a 1993 SUV that also lacks ABS, go figure. Cut off the pipeline and within 20 years most of them will be off the road. Combine a cash for clunker program and you can really reduce the number.
It's not a straw man when our argument is that your dismissal of SUVs is arbitrary. To come up with other examples that you don't feel merit exclusion is hardly a faulty argument. Despite my better judgment, what is your view on motorcycles since your main argument is re: safety?
Chris
No but it is a straw man to present it as a ban on SUVs in lieu of nearly 30 year old cars. The proper comparison would be a 2022 Crown Victoria, complete with ABS, ESC, and all the other safety devices present in a modern vehicle. (and I really would love to see the return of the Crown Victoria)
Motorcycles are fine, they get good gas millage for the most part and they are a hazard to their operator much more than any one else on the road, unlike the Hummer H2 that soccer mom bought for going to the mall that presents a serious hazard to anyone else not driving an equivalent beast. If you want to undertake the risk of a bike fine, it is not a negative externally to everyone else, which is the primary issue with the SUV.
Title: Re: Gas-prone "Sport Utility Vehicles"
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 31, 2021, 01:14:40 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 31, 2021, 01:14:40 PM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 01:05:29 PM
Could we just spin this whole SUV discussion off into a different thread?
Agreed, this has strayed wildly off-topic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 31, 2021, 01:24:06 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 31, 2021, 01:24:06 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 01:09:11 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 31, 2021, 01:01:07 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 12:56:23 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 12:51:25 PMQuote from: jayhawkco on March 31, 2021, 12:47:40 PM
He also never answered my question about 1993 Ford Tuaruses despite me bringing it up three times. I would have to assume any non-ABS car would have to be removed from the road, right?
I think his solution to things like that is one of attrition.
Exactly, nothing but one straw-man after another here. No one is saying that all "unsafe" cars need to be removed from the road now. Frankly there are already not THAT many cars left without ABS, it was mandatory in 2005 and common for some years before that. And the 93 Taurus is still less prone to roll over than a 1993 SUV that also lacks ABS, go figure. Cut off the pipeline and within 20 years most of them will be off the road. Combine a cash for clunker program and you can really reduce the number.
It's not a straw man when our argument is that your dismissal of SUVs is arbitrary. To come up with other examples that you don't feel merit exclusion is hardly a faulty argument. Despite my better judgment, what is your view on motorcycles since your main argument is re: safety?
Chris
No but it is a straw man to present it as a ban on SUVs in lieu of nearly 30 year old cars. The proper comparison would be a 2022 Crown Victoria, complete with ABS, ESC, and all the other safety devices present in a modern vehicle. (and I really would love to see the return of the Crown Victoria)
Motorcycles are fine, they get good gas millage for the most part and they are a hazard to their operator much more than any one else on the road, unlike the Hummer H2 that soccer mom bought for going to the mall that presents a serious hazard to anyone else not driving an equivalent beast. If you want to undertake the risk of a bike fine, it is not a negative externally to everyone else, which is the primary issue with the SUV.
I'll respond to this here since it looks like a mod is spinning it off into its own thread and maybe it'll be moved. Let me not talk about "obsolete" cars like a '93 Taurus. But how about "classic" cars like a '57 Chevy or a '64 1/2 Mustang. Obviously these are not current cars with the current safety features. Under your proposal, would these not be allowed to be driven on the road? This isn't an edge case kind of thing, as those cars aren't being replaced by their owners anytime soon like one would probably want to upgrade from a 200k mile Taurus.
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 01:34:17 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 01:34:17 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2021, 12:36:19 PM
SUVs need to be banned for on road use
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 12:56:23 PM
No one is saying that all "unsafe" cars need to be removed from the road now.
YOU said they need to be banned from the road. That's what started the discussion.
Please explain to us all how "banning them from the road" is different from "removing them from the road".
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 01:09:11 PM
it is a straw man to present it as a ban on SUVs in lieu of nearly 30 year old cars. The proper comparison would be a 2022 Crown Victoria, complete with ABS, ESC, and all the other safety devices present in a modern vehicle.
That's why I compared four-year-old vehicles instead. And I found several SUVs that are comparable or better than a minivan from the same year. Are you including minivans in your 'SUV' category?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hbelkins on March 31, 2021, 01:58:04 PM
Post by: hbelkins on March 31, 2021, 01:58:04 PM
I get the feeling that HighwayStar hates SUVs because he doesn't have one and because he perceives they waste gas and are thus somehow harmful to the environment. Apparently he also feels they are less safe.
I'm more concerned about visibility (both seeing and being seen) than I am the possibility of a rollover. A higher-profile vehicle is easier to see out of, and is also more visible to others, than a low-to-the-ground car. I never felt nervous passing a tractor-trailer in my old Toyota Tacoma 4WD pickup. I always got a little uneasy being beside one in my Saturn SC2.
And I will admit to not being a fan of anti-lock brakes. I've spent more money on brakes for my Saturn Vue (four-wheel disc) than any other vehicle. I'll trade any perceived safety benefits of ABS away in exchange for less expense in maintenance.
I'm more concerned about visibility (both seeing and being seen) than I am the possibility of a rollover. A higher-profile vehicle is easier to see out of, and is also more visible to others, than a low-to-the-ground car. I never felt nervous passing a tractor-trailer in my old Toyota Tacoma 4WD pickup. I always got a little uneasy being beside one in my Saturn SC2.
And I will admit to not being a fan of anti-lock brakes. I've spent more money on brakes for my Saturn Vue (four-wheel disc) than any other vehicle. I'll trade any perceived safety benefits of ABS away in exchange for less expense in maintenance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 31, 2021, 02:04:25 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 31, 2021, 02:04:25 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 31, 2021, 01:58:04 PM
I get the feeling that HighwayStar hates SUVs because he doesn't have one and because he perceives they waste gas and are thus somehow harmful to the environment. Apparently he also feels they are less safe.
Agreed. And I'm still trying to get an answer about the new electric Hummer. That obviously is better for the environment. I feel like kphoger and I have been asking questions about the safety aspect and haven't gotten satisfactory answers. Yes, they're easier to roll over if you decide to take a sharp turn at 65 mph, but if he feels like motorcycles are okay because the onus is on the rider, I feel like a rollover accident is typically a one-car accident. I don't know what else about them is more dangerous. Curb weight? A Bentley weighs plenty more than my Wrangler. But it's a sedan, so it's obviously safer.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 31, 2021, 01:58:04 PMI'm more concerned about visibility (both seeing and being seen) than I am the possibility of a rollover. A higher-profile vehicle is easier to see out of, and is also more visible to others, than a low-to-the-ground car. I never felt nervous passing a tractor-trailer in my old Toyota Tacoma 4WD pickup. I always got a little uneasy being beside one in my Saturn SC2.
Agreed. My first car was a Mustang and I remember a lot of times a semi merging into my lane because they didn't see me. I've rarely, if ever, had that happen with the SUVs I've driven.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 31, 2021, 01:58:04 PMAnd I will admit to not being a fan of anti-lock brakes. I've spent more money on brakes for my Saturn Vue (four-wheel disc) than any other vehicle. I'll trade any perceived safety benefits of ABS away in exchange for less expense in maintenance.
I think it depends on where you live. They are a massive help in places where it snows a lot. If I lived in Phoenix, they would be less important to me and would have probably never even had them engage.
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: 1995hoo on March 31, 2021, 02:55:50 PM
Post by: 1995hoo on March 31, 2021, 02:55:50 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 30, 2021, 09:12:41 PM
I'm beginning to think HighwayStar is a troll and the user name is a waste of a perfectly good Deep Purple song.
....
I was beginning to wonder whether HighwayStar is a kernals12 sockpuppet, but HighwayStar's comments actually seem to reflect some minimal level of thought instead of consisting solely of single- (or partial-)sentence one-line non sequiturs. Replies 195 and 197 are further reason for wondering whether they are either sockpuppets or otherwise in cahoots in the trolling industry.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:00:49 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:00:49 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 31, 2021, 02:55:50 PMQuote from: hbelkins on March 30, 2021, 09:12:41 PM
I'm beginning to think HighwayStar is a troll and the user name is a waste of a perfectly good Deep Purple song.
....
I was beginning to wonder whether HighwayStar is a kernals12 sockpuppet, but HighwayStar's comments actually seem to reflect some minimal level of thought instead of consisting solely of single- (or partial-)sentence one-line non sequiturs. Replies 195 and 197 are further reason for wondering whether they are either sockpuppets or otherwise in cahoots in the trolling industry.
Rest assured I am neither a troll nor a sock puppet. :spin:
And I will point out this was the thread for "unpopular" opinions, so I put forth what was likely my most unpopular opinion. :-D
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on March 31, 2021, 03:05:08 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on March 31, 2021, 03:05:08 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 31, 2021, 02:55:50 PMQuote from: hbelkins on March 30, 2021, 09:12:41 PM
I'm beginning to think HighwayStar is a troll and the user name is a waste of a perfectly good Deep Purple song.
....
I was beginning to wonder whether HighwayStar is a kernals12 sockpuppet, but HighwayStar's comments actually seem to reflect some minimal level of thought instead of consisting solely of single- (or partial-)sentence one-line non sequiturs. Replies 195 and 197 are further reason for wondering whether they are either sockpuppets or otherwise in cahoots in the trolling industry.
HighwayStar doesn't sound like a kid.
Does this sound like kernals12?
Quote from: HighwayStar on January 07, 2021, 01:18:22 PMQuote from: froggie on January 07, 2021, 12:26:15 PM
I find it a bit amusing that some commenters have effectively put their ostrich-head-in-the-sand regarding the negative impacts of Interstate construction when those impacts are well documented. The underlying question, which I can see this study assisting with (if done right, as sparker may have a point), is whether the positive benefits to travel, safety, and the economy, outweigh the negative drawbacks of displacement and environmental damage that have occurred over the years.
Of course, if the politicians and engineers of the '50s and '60s hadn't been so cheap and wonton in their bulldozing, this would be a far different question to answer. I am firmly of the belief that today's negative viewpoint of freeways (especially in urban areas) would be far less negative if the fair-market-value, relocation-assistance, and environmental-mitigation programs of today had existed when the Interstates first began construction.
I don't think its fair to say that we are putting our heads in the sand, its more that we have been through this many times over and are tired of hearing the same old arguments.
Did the freeways displace people? Of course they did, but the harsh reality is that most of the displacement was moving people out of slums where many were not even property owners to start with. Sure there has been plenty of romanticism of the inner city before the freeway, but the actual evidence indicates that whoever could leave the cities for the suburbs did, so to think that uprooting a few involuntarily was enough to even enter into the impact calculation is dubious. I lived in a part of DC for a while that was "saved" from the freeways and I have a hard time believing that the area was better off for it.
My hometown has the same issue, people displaced by a mine, and a great deal of romanticism about the days before that. But an objective look at the facts shows that people were living in squalid conditions that were almost invariably worse than where they ended up.
In any case, trying to put a dollar value on the freeways is not something that is ever going to work, as a key function was always their value as defense highways, which is essentially impossible to put a dollar value on from an economic analysis standpoint.
Quote from: kalvado on January 14, 2021, 01:56:03 PMQuote from: kphoger on January 14, 2021, 01:08:30 PMLast time I checked, there was no draft in US for a while, so whoever is in the military basically chosen that lifestyle for themselves.Quote from: HighwayStar on January 14, 2021, 12:56:14 PMQuote from: kphoger on January 14, 2021, 12:23:09 PM
If they're being forced to move either way, then isn't the comparison appropriate? However, since the end of the draft, parents choose to enlist, which is a big difference.
My point in making that comparison is that there IS an entire subclass of Americans that move their families regularly so they can serve us, and to ask any American to move once for the good of society as a whole should not be an unreasonable request.
I'd say the benefits are not equivalent. Serving in the military has the opportunity to benefit the protection and welfare all of America, plus other countries. Building a freeway through a particular neighborhood... ummm... allows people to get somewhere faster.
You may also argue that waking up someone at night is not a big deal, as there are people working graveyard shift, or have professionally crazy schedule (such as transportation workers - bus drivers, plane crews, who has to work 5AM-6AM departures). Again, a personal choice.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: 1995hoo on March 31, 2021, 03:06:09 PM
Post by: 1995hoo on March 31, 2021, 03:06:09 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:00:49 PM
....
And I will point out this was the thread for "unpopular" opinions, so I put forth what was likely my most unpopular opinion. :-D
I'd wager that so far you certainly win that award!
Quote from: 1 on March 31, 2021, 03:05:08 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 31, 2021, 02:55:50 PMQuote from: hbelkins on March 30, 2021, 09:12:41 PM
I'm beginning to think HighwayStar is a troll and the user name is a waste of a perfectly good Deep Purple song.
....
I was beginning to wonder whether HighwayStar is a kernals12 sockpuppet, but HighwayStar's comments actually seem to reflect some minimal level of thought instead of consisting solely of single- (or partial-)sentence one-line non sequiturs. Replies 195 and 197 are further reason for wondering whether they are either sockpuppets or otherwise in cahoots in the trolling industry.
HighwayStar doesn't sound like a kid.
Does this sound like kernals12?
....
I will readily concede that I have not attempted to read the whole thread nor the whole "ban SUVs" subthread.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:09:36 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:09:36 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 31, 2021, 03:06:09 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:00:49 PM
....
And I will point out this was the thread for "unpopular" opinions, so I put forth what was likely my most unpopular opinion. :-D
I'd wager that so far you certainly win that award!Quote from: 1 on March 31, 2021, 03:05:08 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 31, 2021, 02:55:50 PMQuote from: hbelkins on March 30, 2021, 09:12:41 PM
I'm beginning to think HighwayStar is a troll and the user name is a waste of a perfectly good Deep Purple song.
....
I was beginning to wonder whether HighwayStar is a kernals12 sockpuppet, but HighwayStar's comments actually seem to reflect some minimal level of thought instead of consisting solely of single- (or partial-)sentence one-line non sequiturs. Replies 195 and 197 are further reason for wondering whether they are either sockpuppets or otherwise in cahoots in the trolling industry.
HighwayStar doesn't sound like a kid.
Does this sound like kernals12?
....
I will readily concede that I have not attempted to read the whole thread nor the whole "ban SUVs" subthread.
At this point I would not suggest you do. Basically it boils down to I don't like them, for a variety of reasons, and would happy for them to go away.
Others own them, and would like them to stay.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:23:05 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:23:05 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:09:36 PM
I don't like them, for a variety of reasons, and would happy for them to go away.
That's a terrible reason to think something should be banned.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:27:51 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:27:51 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:23:05 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:09:36 PM
I don't like them, for a variety of reasons, and would happy for them to go away.
That's a terrible reason to think something should be banned.
for a variety of reasons is a very good reason, but I was not going to relist them all over again. And like it or not most positions boil down to preference anyway so its not that unique.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:30:34 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:30:34 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:27:51 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:23:05 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:09:36 PM
I don't like them, for a variety of reasons, and would happy for them to go away.
That's a terrible reason to think something should be banned.
for a variety of reasons is a very good reason, but I was not going to relist them all over again. And like it or not most positions boil down to preference anyway so its not that unique.
No, "I don't like them" is a terrible reason.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 03:31:18 PM
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 03:31:18 PM
Continue discussion over here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=28930.new#new). Thanks. :bigass:
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:32:14 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:32:14 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:30:34 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:27:51 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:23:05 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:09:36 PM
I don't like them, for a variety of reasons, and would happy for them to go away.
That's a terrible reason to think something should be banned.
for a variety of reasons is a very good reason, but I was not going to relist them all over again. And like it or not most positions boil down to preference anyway so its not that unique.
No, "I don't like them" is a terrible reason.
Again, there are reasons I don't like them. Poor fuel economy, poor handling, override accidents, etc.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: 1995hoo on March 31, 2021, 03:34:45 PM
Post by: 1995hoo on March 31, 2021, 03:34:45 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:27:51 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:23:05 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:09:36 PM
I don't like them, for a variety of reasons, and would happy for them to go away.
That's a terrible reason to think something should be banned.
for a variety of reasons is a very good reason, but I was not going to relist them all over again. And like it or not most positions boil down to preference anyway so its not that unique.
I will disagree with you insofar as you might be agreeing with the words "should be banned." I can't disagree with your statement that you "would be happy for them to go away," as that is distinctly different from banning something (and I recognize a lot of the earlier discussion was about the idea of banning them). I can think of some things I find extraordinarily annoying that I'd like to see go away–the #1 such thing is the portable basketball hoop the people two doors up the street have in their driveway–but that I would never even consider suggesting should be banned.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
I dislike loud, Harley-type motorcycles, but I don't think they should be banned.
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:38:46 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:38:46 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 31, 2021, 03:34:45 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:27:51 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:23:05 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:09:36 PM
I don't like them, for a variety of reasons, and would happy for them to go away.
That's a terrible reason to think something should be banned.
for a variety of reasons is a very good reason, but I was not going to relist them all over again. And like it or not most positions boil down to preference anyway so its not that unique.
I will disagree with you insofar as you might be agreeing with the words "should be banned." I can't disagree with your statement that you "would be happy for them to go away," as that is distinctly different from banning something (and I recognize a lot of the earlier discussion was about the idea of banning them). I can think of some things I find extraordinarily annoying that I'd like to see go away–the #1 such thing is the portable basketball hoop the people two doors up the street have in their driveway–but that I would never even consider suggesting should be banned.
The wording was being succinct to avoid going into a long dissertation about undoing the distortion of CAFE via regulations, taxation, etc. with an intent realign the passenger vehicle market with more reasonable designs. But in any case a new thread has been established so I will differ to that one going forward.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:39:26 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:39:26 PM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 03:31:18 PM
Continue discussion over here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=28930.new#new). Thanks.
I still don't know what that thread is about, because the topic is cryptic.
At least I know this discussion is on-topic, considering it's discussing a specific unpopular opinion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:40:01 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:40:01 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
I dislike loud, Harley-type motorcycles, but I don't think they should be banned.
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
Ever been to Nutbush? :-D
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SectorZ on March 31, 2021, 03:59:16 PM
Post by: SectorZ on March 31, 2021, 03:59:16 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
I dislike loud, Harley-type motorcycles, but I don't think they should be banned.
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
Some people around here are just authoritarian dinks. There's nothing really to it more than that.
The true hallmark of a person's character is their rampant desire to ban stuff they don't like.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SeriesE on March 31, 2021, 04:31:48 PM
Post by: SeriesE on March 31, 2021, 04:31:48 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
I dislike loud, Harley-type motorcycles, but I don't think they should be banned.
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
True. It's more appropriate to regulate the maximum sound emissions and regularly checking in through inspections rather than banning such motorcycles wholesale.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 04:37:37 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 04:37:37 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:40:01 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
I dislike loud, Harley-type motorcycles, but I don't think they should be banned.
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
Ever been to Nutbush? :-D
Could someone please explain the joke to me?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 31, 2021, 04:41:46 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 31, 2021, 04:41:46 PM
Quote from: SeriesE on March 31, 2021, 04:31:48 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
I dislike loud, Harley-type motorcycles, but I don't think they should be banned.
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
True. It's more appropriate to regulate the maximum sound emissions and regularly checking in through inspections rather than banning such motorcycles wholesale.
Shoot, Harley has a patent on that ridiculous sound (not necessarily the amount of sound, but I bet they'd fight a decibel restriction with their already granted sound patent).
Chris
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Tom958 on March 31, 2021, 04:43:56 PM
Post by: Tom958 on March 31, 2021, 04:43:56 PM
I don't really care about lane discipline. I think that people who avoid the right lane unless they're egregiously obstructing traffic are doing the public a favor by equalizing wear across the road surface.
I also don't care about button copy, though I'm mindful of it as a nod to other roadgeeks.
I also don't care about button copy, though I'm mindful of it as a nod to other roadgeeks.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 04:51:41 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 04:51:41 PM
Quote from: Tom958 on March 31, 2021, 04:43:56 PM
I don't really care about lane discipline. I think that people who avoid the right lane unless they're egregiously obstructing traffic are doing the public a favor by equalizing wear across the road surface.
I understand your position. I would personally rather have one lane get repaved every so often than have both lanes repaved half as often–just because I think it's less disruptive. However, I also drive in Mexico often enough, on highways whose right lanes have been beaten up pretty badly by heavy trucks, that I respect the other side of the discussion.
Quote from: Tom958 on March 31, 2021, 04:43:56 PM
I also don't care about button copy, though I'm mindful of it as a nod to other roadgeeks.
Yeah, I don't care about it either. Maybe it's because I have no memories of it go get me all nostalgic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 31, 2021, 05:13:21 PM
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 31, 2021, 05:13:21 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 04:51:41 PM
However, I also drive in Mexico often enough, on highways whose right lanes have been beaten up pretty badly by heavy trucks, that I respect the other side of the discussion.
I-10 in New Mexico has been notorious for that. You'd see people driving in the left lane just because it's the smooth lane. I'm not sure if anything has changed in the last couple of years.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 05:37:47 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 05:37:47 PM
Slower traffic should be allowed to drive on the shoulder. It's specifically allowed by law in Texas, and other states should follow suit.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on March 31, 2021, 05:41:42 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on March 31, 2021, 05:41:42 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 05:37:47 PM
Slower traffic should be allowed to drive on the shoulder. It's specifically allowed by law in Texas, and other states should follow suit.
Massachusetts allows it on a few roads, but during rush hours (6-10 AM one direction, 3-7 PM the other) only. These stretches have paved emergency pulloffs about every 1/2 mile.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 05:45:19 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 05:45:19 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 31, 2021, 05:41:42 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 05:37:47 PM
Slower traffic should be allowed to drive on the shoulder. It's specifically allowed by law in Texas, and other states should follow suit.
Massachusetts allows it on a few roads, but during rush hours (6-10 AM one direction, 3-7 PM the other) only. These stretches have paved emergency pulloffs about every 1/2 mile.
The only downside of that is it removes one conduit for emergency vehicles when things are very tight.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kernals12 on March 31, 2021, 05:45:58 PM
Post by: kernals12 on March 31, 2021, 05:45:58 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
I dislike loud, Harley-type motorcycles, but I don't think they should be banned.
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
Noise pollution is a real problem. They should definitely have mufflers.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 05:48:21 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 05:48:21 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on March 31, 2021, 05:45:58 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
I dislike loud, Harley-type motorcycles, but I don't think they should be banned.
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
Noise pollution is a real problem. They should definitely have mufflers.
Well you just BANNED something, namely un-muffled motorcycles. I guess that makes you an authoritarian person of bad character now. :-D
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on March 31, 2021, 05:49:22 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on March 31, 2021, 05:49:22 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 05:48:21 PMQuote from: kernals12 on March 31, 2021, 05:45:58 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
I dislike loud, Harley-type motorcycles, but I don't think they should be banned.
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
Noise pollution is a real problem. They should definitely have mufflers.
Well you just BANNED something, namely un-muffled motorcycles. I guess that makes you an authoritarian person of bad character now. :-D
kernals12 never said banning things was authoritarian. That was SectorZ.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 05:50:03 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 05:50:03 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 31, 2021, 05:49:22 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 05:48:21 PMQuote from: kernals12 on March 31, 2021, 05:45:58 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
I dislike loud, Harley-type motorcycles, but I don't think they should be banned.
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
Noise pollution is a real problem. They should definitely have mufflers.
Well you just BANNED something, namely un-muffled motorcycles. I guess that makes you an authoritarian person of bad character now. :-D
kernals12 never said banning things was authoritarian. That was SectorZ.
I am fully aware of that. Its called sarcasm.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on March 31, 2021, 07:16:04 PM
Post by: formulanone on March 31, 2021, 07:16:04 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 04:37:37 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:40:01 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
I dislike loud, Harley-type motorcycles, but I don't think they should be banned.
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
Ever been to Nutbush? :-D
Could someone please explain the joke to me?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutbush_City_Limits
Quote from: Tina Turner
Twenty-five was the speed limit
Motorcycle not allowed in it
You go t'the store on Fridays
You go to church on Sundays
They call it Nutbush, little old town
Oh, Nutbush
They call it Nutbush city limits
...On Highway 19...
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SeriesE on March 31, 2021, 08:02:52 PM
Post by: SeriesE on March 31, 2021, 08:02:52 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 31, 2021, 04:41:46 PMQuote from: SeriesE on March 31, 2021, 04:31:48 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
I dislike loud, Harley-type motorcycles, but I don't think they should be banned.
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
True. It's more appropriate to regulate the maximum sound emissions and regularly checking in through inspections rather than banning such motorcycles wholesale.
Shoot, Harley has a patent on that ridiculous sound (not necessarily the amount of sound, but I bet they'd fight a decibel restriction with their already granted sound patent).
Chris
Most efficient vehicles at converting gasoline to noise while generating no power!
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 08:19:06 PM
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 08:19:06 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 05:37:47 PM
Slower traffic should be allowed to drive on the shoulder. It's specifically allowed by law in Texas, and other states should follow suit.
I think the I-80 project in Stroudsburg is using a pseudo-3-lane design with extra-wide shoulders to be used as extra lanes during periods of high traffic, effectively making it a 5-lane highway through a town of 4,000 people.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: oscar on March 31, 2021, 08:31:55 PM
Post by: oscar on March 31, 2021, 08:31:55 PM
Quote from: formulanone on March 31, 2021, 07:16:04 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 04:37:37 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:40:01 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
I dislike loud, Harley-type motorcycles, but I don't think they should be banned.
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
Ever been to Nutbush? :-D
Could someone please explain the joke to me?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutbush_City_LimitsQuote from: Tina Turner
Twenty-five was the speed limit
Motorcycle not allowed in it
You go t'the store on Fridays
You go to church on Sundays
They call it Nutbush, little old town
Oh, Nutbush
They call it Nutbush city limits
...On Highway 19...
Which is the Tina Turner Highway.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 31, 2021, 08:34:08 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on March 31, 2021, 08:34:08 PM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 08:19:06 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 05:37:47 PM
Slower traffic should be allowed to drive on the shoulder. It's specifically allowed by law in Texas, and other states should follow suit.
I think the I-80 project in Stroudsburg is using a pseudo-3-lane design with extra-wide shoulders to be used as extra lanes during periods of high traffic, effectively making it a 5-lane highway through a town of 4,000 people.
Don't you mean 4 lanes? I've never seen the left shoulder being used as an extra lane, only the right.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 31, 2021, 08:37:51 PM
Post by: Ned Weasel on March 31, 2021, 08:37:51 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 31, 2021, 08:34:08 PM
I've never seen the left shoulder being used as an extra lane, only the right.
The left shoulder is used as an extra lane on US 23 in Michigan. https://goo.gl/maps/HRb52ttcTut1wtUx8
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hbelkins on March 31, 2021, 09:34:02 PM
Post by: hbelkins on March 31, 2021, 09:34:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:23:05 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:09:36 PM
I don't like them, for a variety of reasons, and would happy for them to go away.
That's a terrible reason to think something should be banned.
I dunno. There are a lot of things that I'd be very happy to see disappear permanently. But that's not going to happen.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: sprjus4 on March 31, 2021, 10:10:59 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on March 31, 2021, 10:10:59 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on March 31, 2021, 08:37:51 PMAnd I still do not understand why that was not simply converted to a general purpose lane.Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 31, 2021, 08:34:08 PM
I've never seen the left shoulder being used as an extra lane, only the right.
The left shoulder is used as an extra lane on US 23 in Michigan. https://goo.gl/maps/HRb52ttcTut1wtUx8
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on March 31, 2021, 10:49:09 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on March 31, 2021, 10:49:09 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on March 31, 2021, 08:37:51 PMHere's another (recent) one: I-670 in Columbus (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9795271,-82.9660484,3a,75y,65.35h,88.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stLCDU5egmY9M-O058Bqrpg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 31, 2021, 08:34:08 PM
I've never seen the left shoulder being used as an extra lane, only the right.
The left shoulder is used as an extra lane on US 23 in Michigan. https://goo.gl/maps/HRb52ttcTut1wtUx8
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on April 01, 2021, 03:40:48 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 01, 2021, 03:40:48 AM
I wish people would drive faster on my street. Most of the time, when I'm almost home, I have to pee.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Tom958 on April 01, 2021, 05:25:19 AM
Post by: Tom958 on April 01, 2021, 05:25:19 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 01, 2021, 03:40:48 AM
I wish people would drive faster on my street. Most of the time, when I'm almost home, I have to pee.
And I wish this forum had reaction emojis like Facebook. :-D
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: LM117 on April 01, 2021, 06:26:35 AM
Post by: LM117 on April 01, 2021, 06:26:35 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 08:54:10 PM
Putting people in a pickup truck bed, etc. is already illegal so we need not concern ourselves with that.
Depends on what state you're in. In NC, it's legal to ride in the bed of a pickup as long as you're 16 or over and those under 16 can ride if they're accompanied by an adult.
VA is the pretty much the same way, except that anyone under 16 can't ride in the bed except during authorized parades and farming operations.
Title: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on April 01, 2021, 07:24:30 AM
Post by: formulanone on April 01, 2021, 07:24:30 AM
Quote from: Tom958 on April 01, 2021, 05:25:19 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 01, 2021, 03:40:48 AM
I wish people would drive faster on my street. Most of the time, when I'm almost home, I have to pee.
And I wish this forum had reaction emojis like Facebook. :-D
There's a sign for everything.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210401/5098bb2d95048815f7e784d6da3aab69.jpg)
(It's a taxiway at O'Hare, no GSV.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jmacswimmer on April 01, 2021, 08:14:30 AM
Post by: jmacswimmer on April 01, 2021, 08:14:30 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 31, 2021, 10:49:09 PMQuote from: stridentweasel on March 31, 2021, 08:37:51 PMHere's another (recent) one: I-670 in Columbus (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9795271,-82.9660484,3a,75y,65.35h,88.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stLCDU5egmY9M-O058Bqrpg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 31, 2021, 08:34:08 PM
I've never seen the left shoulder being used as an extra lane, only the right.
The left shoulder is used as an extra lane on US 23 in Michigan. https://goo.gl/maps/HRb52ttcTut1wtUx8
And I-495 in Virginia (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.954065,-77.194139,3a,50.9y,34.44h,86.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snZL1hYVzWItPqx5CMiwuyg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) (although this one is just a stopgap until the ETL's are extended over the Legion Bridge into Maryland).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SectorZ on April 01, 2021, 10:31:46 AM
Post by: SectorZ on April 01, 2021, 10:31:46 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 05:50:03 PMQuote from: 1 on March 31, 2021, 05:49:22 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 05:48:21 PMQuote from: kernals12 on March 31, 2021, 05:45:58 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
I dislike loud, Harley-type motorcycles, but I don't think they should be banned.
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
Noise pollution is a real problem. They should definitely have mufflers.
Well you just BANNED something, namely un-muffled motorcycles. I guess that makes you an authoritarian person of bad character now. :-D
kernals12 never said banning things was authoritarian. That was SectorZ.
I am fully aware of that. Its called sarcasm.
At least what kernals12 wanted to ban serves to correct an actual legitimate concern, based on actual science.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: paulthemapguy on April 01, 2021, 10:33:22 AM
Post by: paulthemapguy on April 01, 2021, 10:33:22 AM
I-290 into Chicago is never getting widened. Take the damn train.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on April 01, 2021, 10:34:34 AM
Post by: HighwayStar on April 01, 2021, 10:34:34 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on April 01, 2021, 10:31:46 AMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 05:50:03 PMQuote from: 1 on March 31, 2021, 05:49:22 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 05:48:21 PMQuote from: kernals12 on March 31, 2021, 05:45:58 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
I dislike loud, Harley-type motorcycles, but I don't think they should be banned.
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
Noise pollution is a real problem. They should definitely have mufflers.
Well you just BANNED something, namely un-muffled motorcycles. I guess that makes you an authoritarian person of bad character now. :-D
kernals12 never said banning things was authoritarian. That was SectorZ.
I am fully aware of that. Its called sarcasm.
At least what kernals12 wanted to ban serves to correct an actual legitimate concern, based on actual science.
There is plenty of "actual science" to say that SUVs are a wasteful extravagance that generate negative externality other drivers, arguably large ones than loud motorcycles.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Flint1979 on April 01, 2021, 11:56:39 AM
Post by: Flint1979 on April 01, 2021, 11:56:39 AM
Quote from: stridentweasel on March 31, 2021, 08:37:51 PMOnly during peak travel times otherwise it's closed and you can only use the two lanes.Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 31, 2021, 08:34:08 PM
I've never seen the left shoulder being used as an extra lane, only the right.
The left shoulder is used as an extra lane on US 23 in Michigan. https://goo.gl/maps/HRb52ttcTut1wtUx8
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 01, 2021, 01:59:42 PM
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 01, 2021, 01:59:42 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 01, 2021, 11:56:39 AMQuote from: stridentweasel on March 31, 2021, 08:37:51 PMOnly during peak travel times otherwise it's closed and you can only use the two lanes.Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 31, 2021, 08:34:08 PM
I've never seen the left shoulder being used as an extra lane, only the right.
The left shoulder is used as an extra lane on US 23 in Michigan. https://goo.gl/maps/HRb52ttcTut1wtUx8
That's what I thought was meant by "extra lane." If it wasn't restricted, it would just be a normal lane.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CoreySamson on April 01, 2021, 02:02:28 PM
Post by: CoreySamson on April 01, 2021, 02:02:28 PM
Speaking of extra lanes, here's an instance where the shoulder of a road is used as an extra lane during a hurricane evacuation:
TX-36 north of West Columbia (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.1634405,-95.6668206,3a,89.2y,347.75h,80.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6juGEQAItFVAQbXXcW-xMw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
TX-36 north of West Columbia (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.1634405,-95.6668206,3a,89.2y,347.75h,80.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6juGEQAItFVAQbXXcW-xMw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Big John on April 01, 2021, 02:55:32 PM
Post by: Big John on April 01, 2021, 02:55:32 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on April 01, 2021, 02:02:28 PMOther highways, usually Interstate use contraflow for hurricane evacuation, meaning all lanes , including the outward lanes, go inward.
Speaking of extra lanes, here's an instance where the shoulder of a road is used as an extra lane during a hurricane evacuation:
TX-36 north of West Columbia (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.1634405,-95.6668206,3a,89.2y,347.75h,80.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6juGEQAItFVAQbXXcW-xMw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 01, 2021, 04:05:29 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 01, 2021, 04:05:29 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 05:48:21 PMQuote from: kernals12 on March 31, 2021, 05:45:58 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:37:19 PM
I dislike loud, Harley-type motorcycles, but I don't think they should be banned.
(Honestly, if bicycles and motorcycles were invented today, they'd never be allowed on the streets.)
Noise pollution is a real problem. They should definitely have mufflers.
Well you just BANNED something, namely un-muffled motorcycles. I guess that makes you an authoritarian person of bad character now. :-D
No, he didn't. Harleys have mufflers.
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 08:19:06 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 05:37:47 PM
Slower traffic should be allowed to drive on the shoulder. It's specifically allowed by law in Texas, and other states should follow suit.
I think the I-80 project in Stroudsburg is using a pseudo-3-lane design with extra-wide shoulders to be used as extra lanes during periods of high traffic, effectively making it a 5-lane highway through a town of 4,000 people.
These examples being given are nothing like what I have in mind. I'm talking about this (https://goo.gl/maps/pEFFw3v8rdPZShmN7).
Quote from: LM117 on April 01, 2021, 06:26:35 AMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 30, 2021, 08:54:10 PM
Putting people in a pickup truck bed, etc. is already illegal so we need not concern ourselves with that.
Depends on what state you're in. In NC, it's legal to ride in the bed of a pickup as long as you're 16 or over and those under 16 can ride if they're accompanied by an adult.
VA is the pretty much the same way, except that anyone under 16 can't ride in the bed except during authorized parades and farming operations.
Thanks. I was going to post something like that, but I was too lazy to look up the traffic laws. But yes, riding in the back of a pickup is not necessarily prohibited everywhere. I seem to remember that the law in Texas allows it if you have more people than seats, probably with other restrictions.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JoePCool14 on April 01, 2021, 07:00:50 PM
Post by: JoePCool14 on April 01, 2021, 07:00:50 PM
US-20 between Freeport and Galena, IL doesn't need to be four-laned. It just needs to be rebuilt with better, wider shoulders and a few more passing lanes here and there.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: sprjus4 on April 01, 2021, 08:35:00 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on April 01, 2021, 08:35:00 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on April 01, 2021, 02:02:28 PMI-37 northbound between Corpus Christi and San Antonio has those. Between SH-358 and US-77, it's on the left shoulder, then switches to the right shoulder north of there to San Antonio.
Speaking of extra lanes, here's an instance where the shoulder of a road is used as an extra lane during a hurricane evacuation:
TX-36 north of West Columbia (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.1634405,-95.6668206,3a,89.2y,347.75h,80.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6juGEQAItFVAQbXXcW-xMw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
I-10 westbound also has them on the right shoulder I believe, between Houston and San Antonio.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CoreySamson on April 01, 2021, 08:52:26 PM
Post by: CoreySamson on April 01, 2021, 08:52:26 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 01, 2021, 08:35:00 PMI guess I might as well have an unpopular opinion about these: the evacuation symbols should be on every evacuation route's shoulder if space allows.Quote from: CoreySamson on April 01, 2021, 02:02:28 PMI-37 northbound between Corpus Christi and San Antonio has those. Between SH-358 and US-77, it's on the left shoulder, then switches to the right shoulder north of there to San Antonio.
Speaking of extra lanes, here's an instance where the shoulder of a road is used as an extra lane during a hurricane evacuation:
TX-36 north of West Columbia (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.1634405,-95.6668206,3a,89.2y,347.75h,80.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6juGEQAItFVAQbXXcW-xMw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
I-10 westbound also has them on the right shoulder I believe, between Houston and San Antonio.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: sprjus4 on April 02, 2021, 04:15:04 AM
Post by: sprjus4 on April 02, 2021, 04:15:04 AM
I believe where they exist, the shoulder is slightly wider to properly function as a lane. It's not just a standard shoulder.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 02, 2021, 05:28:19 AM
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 02, 2021, 05:28:19 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 01, 2021, 10:34:34 AM
There is plenty of "actual science" to say that SUVs are a wasteful extravagance that generate negative externality other drivers, arguably large ones than loud motorcycles.
By putting Actual Science in quotes, you probably don't mean actual science.
Quote from: CoreySamson on April 01, 2021, 08:52:26 PMQuote from: sprjus4 on April 01, 2021, 08:35:00 PMI guess I might as well have an unpopular opinion about these: the evacuation symbols should be on every evacuation route's shoulder if space allows.Quote from: CoreySamson on April 01, 2021, 02:02:28 PMI-37 northbound between Corpus Christi and San Antonio has those. Between SH-358 and US-77, it's on the left shoulder, then switches to the right shoulder north of there to San Antonio.
Speaking of extra lanes, here's an instance where the shoulder of a road is used as an extra lane during a hurricane evacuation:
TX-36 north of West Columbia (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.1634405,-95.6668206,3a,89.2y,347.75h,80.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6juGEQAItFVAQbXXcW-xMw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
I-10 westbound also has them on the right shoulder I believe, between Houston and San Antonio.
No. That lane should remain open in case there's an accident or incident that needs responding to. The only thing worse than a clogged evacuation route is a blocked evacuation route.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on April 02, 2021, 08:11:22 AM
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on April 02, 2021, 08:11:22 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 27, 2021, 02:25:19 PMQuote from: GaryV on March 27, 2021, 07:39:36 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 07:50:07 PMQuote from: I-55 on March 26, 2021, 07:47:03 PMQuote from: andrepoiy on March 26, 2021, 07:42:46 PM
I am not a fan of protected left turns - sometimes sitting behind that light takes way too long.
What's more annoying is a flashing yellow arrow light that never gives you a flashing arrow (unless its between midnight and 6 AM).
What's more annoying is a flashing yellow arrow light that only gives you a flashing arrow, while the entire population of the county is driving by in the other direction, so only one person actually gets to go on each cycle.
SE Mich drivers have that figured out - 3 more cars follow through on the red.
Which in turn depending on the cycle order then annoys those of us with a fresh green who have to wait for dicks to finish their red light running.
there is a signal near me that never gives anything other than the fya, even though it's set up to give a green arrow. i think it's complicated by the railroad tracks that go through the intersection on a diagonal, so there's really no place to stop where the light knows you're there. if you stop before the tracks, you're too far back, if you clear the tracks, you're in the crosswalk, or stopped on the tracks. of course, in my entire life i've never seen a train on this track.
shields/287 nw of fort collins, if anyone knows where that is.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:09:22 PM
Post by: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:09:22 PM
Some of these have probably already been said, but here goes.
- I know most of us hate HAWK signals, and I agree, but I don't think regular traffic lights are the way to go. Flashing green (BC-style) is the way to go.
- Any signal with a combination of 8" and 12" looks awful. Make it uniform (preferably 12!).
- For 2di's, state-named shields are bad. For 3di's, state-named shields are good, or in the case of multi-state 3di's, do a descriptor (example: DC BELTWAY around I-495).
- Word-based pedestrian signals are terrible, ESPECIALLY the flashing "DONT WALK"
- All overhead traffic lights should have backplates, preferably black with yellow reflective strips. If no overhead at an approach, make some pole-mounted ones have a backplate.
- All intrastate 3du's are completely fine, intrastate 2du's and 2di's are only fine if over like 350 miles. Use 3-digit routes in that case. Additionally, all 2-digit routes under 150 miles, regardless of how many states it passes through, should be 3 digits.
- State-outline highway shields are the best ones.
- Major corridors in the Midwest should have good ways of protecting drivers from severe storms and tornados, and this includes publicly signed shelters and routinely occurring VMS's that can display "TORNADO WARNING"
- Highway clearances over 16 feet have no reason to be shown.
- Botts' dots are terrible.
- Basically every paved road should at least have a noticeable sign when entering a new state/province/territory, and any remotely major corridor should have a nice, big sign (no smaller than this. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1910412,-77.9195463,3a,33.1y,253.22h,82.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6b9nHVFtwejVGaHEphQR4g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
- I know most of us hate HAWK signals, and I agree, but I don't think regular traffic lights are the way to go. Flashing green (BC-style) is the way to go.
- Any signal with a combination of 8" and 12" looks awful. Make it uniform (preferably 12!).
- For 2di's, state-named shields are bad. For 3di's, state-named shields are good, or in the case of multi-state 3di's, do a descriptor (example: DC BELTWAY around I-495).
- Word-based pedestrian signals are terrible, ESPECIALLY the flashing "DONT WALK"
- All overhead traffic lights should have backplates, preferably black with yellow reflective strips. If no overhead at an approach, make some pole-mounted ones have a backplate.
- All intrastate 3du's are completely fine, intrastate 2du's and 2di's are only fine if over like 350 miles. Use 3-digit routes in that case. Additionally, all 2-digit routes under 150 miles, regardless of how many states it passes through, should be 3 digits.
- State-outline highway shields are the best ones.
- Major corridors in the Midwest should have good ways of protecting drivers from severe storms and tornados, and this includes publicly signed shelters and routinely occurring VMS's that can display "TORNADO WARNING"
- Highway clearances over 16 feet have no reason to be shown.
- Botts' dots are terrible.
- Basically every paved road should at least have a noticeable sign when entering a new state/province/territory, and any remotely major corridor should have a nice, big sign (no smaller than this. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1910412,-77.9195463,3a,33.1y,253.22h,82.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6b9nHVFtwejVGaHEphQR4g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on April 02, 2021, 12:22:59 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on April 02, 2021, 12:22:59 PM
Quote from: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:09:22 PMDepends on the state for me. I think Arizona, Arkansas, Georgia, Missouri and Ohio's state outline works the best, though their state shapes fit as a shield well naturally. Florida's isn't natural for numbers, but I liked how they cut off one side to fit the numbers instead of squeezing them into the outline like the old Illinois shield or making their state shape fatter like Alabama. For bad examples, I dislike Louisiana and Idaho's to start off for tiny numbers.
- State-outline highway shields are the best ones.
Quote from: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:09:22 PMI have no clue what they are, but whatever it is, good thing that they don't exist where I am :D
- Botts' dots are terrible.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: GaryV on April 02, 2021, 12:26:10 PM
Post by: GaryV on April 02, 2021, 12:26:10 PM
Quote from: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:09:22 PM
For 3di's, state-named shields are good,
Because people will get confused as to whether they are on I-275 in MI or FL?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on April 02, 2021, 12:31:02 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on April 02, 2021, 12:31:02 PM
Quote from: GaryV on April 02, 2021, 12:26:10 PMI only know of one person out of many that got Cincinnati and Detroit's I-275 confused with each other, so it would be even more unusual to see Detroit and Tampa's mixed up, considering the distance.Quote from: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:09:22 PM
For 3di's, state-named shields are good,
Because people will get confused as to whether they are on I-275 in MI or FL?
Even then, the exit numbers of where they meet I-75 is different. Cincinnati's meet I-75 in the Ohio side at exit 16, Detroit's meet at exit 20.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: GaryV on April 02, 2021, 12:41:08 PM
Post by: GaryV on April 02, 2021, 12:41:08 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 02, 2021, 12:31:02 PMQuote from: GaryV on April 02, 2021, 12:26:10 PMI only know of one person out of many that got Cincinnati and Detroit's I-275 confused with each other, so it would be even more unusual to see Detroit and Tampa's mixed up, considering the distance.Quote from: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:09:22 PM
For 3di's, state-named shields are good,
Because people will get confused as to whether they are on I-275 in MI or FL?
Even then, the exit numbers of where they meet I-75 is different. Cincinnati's meet I-75 in the Ohio side at exit 16, Detroit's meet at exit 20.
OK, I picked FL because of the absurdity.
But still, someone is driving north on I-75 and the directions they have been given say, "Take I-275 to the Eureka Road Exit". And as the get into northern KY they think, "Great - I'm almost to DTW!" For someone like that, a little "Michigan" or "Ohio" wording on an Interstate shield isn't going to help.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:53:38 PM
Post by: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:53:38 PM
Quote from: GaryV on April 02, 2021, 12:41:08 PMQuote from: SkyPesos on April 02, 2021, 12:31:02 PMQuote from: GaryV on April 02, 2021, 12:26:10 PMI only know of one person out of many that got Cincinnati and Detroit's I-275 confused with each other, so it would be even more unusual to see Detroit and Tampa's mixed up, considering the distance.Quote from: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:09:22 PM
For 3di's, state-named shields are good,
Because people will get confused as to whether they are on I-275 in MI or FL?
Even then, the exit numbers of where they meet I-75 is different. Cincinnati's meet I-75 in the Ohio side at exit 16, Detroit's meet at exit 20.
OK, I picked FL because of the absurdity.
But still, someone is driving north on I-75 and the directions they have been given say, "Take I-275 to the Eureka Road Exit". And as the get into northern KY they think, "Great - I'm almost to DTW!" For someone like that, a little "Michigan" or "Ohio" wording on an Interstate shield isn't going to help.
Fair enough, I was saying it more for the aesthetics (not really the right word, though I hope you get my drift). Again, it's an unpopular opinions thread for a reason :bigass:
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 02, 2021, 12:22:59 PMQuote from: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:09:22 PMDepends on the state for me. I think Arizona, Arkansas, Georgia, Missouri and Ohio's state outline works the best, though their state shapes fit as a shield well naturally. Florida's isn't natural for numbers, but I liked how they cut off one side to fit the numbers instead of squeezing them into the outline like the old Illinois shield or making their state shape fatter like Alabama. For bad examples, I dislike Louisiana and Idaho's to start off for tiny numbers.
- State-outline highway shields are the best ones.
I actually mostly agree with that, and I'm not saying every shield needs to have the number inside, I just like when they incorporate the shape (Florida for example). Idaho could do something similar imo.
Quote from: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:09:22 PMI have no clue what they are, but whatever it is, good thing that they don't exist where I am :D
- Botts' dots are terrible.
[/quote]
How they "stripe" this road:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.0196573,-96.7030927,3a,45.3y,289.22h,77.7t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s9mtys8QO0RGlDP4gcKCFLw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D9mtys8QO0RGlDP4gcKCFLw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D325.0436%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
You can hardly see a damn thing!
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on April 02, 2021, 01:06:16 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on April 02, 2021, 01:06:16 PM
Quote from: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:53:38 PMQuote from: SkyPesos on April 02, 2021, 12:22:59 PMQuote from: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:09:22 PMI have no clue what they are, but whatever it is, good thing that they don't exist where I am :D
- Botts' dots are terrible.
How they "stripe" this road:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.0196573,-96.7030927,3a,45.3y,289.22h,77.7t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s9mtys8QO0RGlDP4gcKCFLw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D9mtys8QO0RGlDP4gcKCFLw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D325.0436%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
You can hardly see a damn thing!
Ok yea, I made up my opinion now. At the moment, I'm interested and trying to like the roads in the state of Washington (as Seattle is may favorite US city), but I don't get how this (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.8233603,-122.271124,3a,48.1y,23.1h,86.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBKjQrxBQJpixl9UfZLyLjA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) could be more legible than this (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.063322,-82.9527962,3a,27.6y,10.93h,86.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNZgijlzZ6xyp5Xq3uJj7fg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) for lane markings.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 02, 2021, 01:24:24 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 02, 2021, 01:24:24 PM
State route shields: "Boring circles" are better than most any more artistic/creative alternative.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: 1995hoo on April 02, 2021, 04:48:42 PM
Post by: 1995hoo on April 02, 2021, 04:48:42 PM
Thought of this when I was driving earlier this afternoon:
Right turns on red need to be more heavily restricted in more locations, perhaps by more frequently posting "No Turn on Red 7 AM—7 PM" or something similar. Of course it's primarily a driver training issue, but too many people seem to think they are entitled to go right on red and seem to think other people (including people making a U-turn on a green arrow) must yield to their right on red (never mind that this means you have a red light!).
(No, I wasn't the guy making the U-turn. I was at a light waiting to go straight and I saw multiple near-collisions between people making U-turns on a green arrow, people making rights on red who illegally failed to yield to the U-turners, and people coming up behind the U-turners trying to go left who wound up almost rear-ending U-turners who wrongly stopped to yield to the right-on-red crowd. That particular light is bad both because of a shopping center with access on only one side of the road and a McDonald's with access only on the other side.)
Right turns on red need to be more heavily restricted in more locations, perhaps by more frequently posting "No Turn on Red 7 AM—7 PM" or something similar. Of course it's primarily a driver training issue, but too many people seem to think they are entitled to go right on red and seem to think other people (including people making a U-turn on a green arrow) must yield to their right on red (never mind that this means you have a red light!).
(No, I wasn't the guy making the U-turn. I was at a light waiting to go straight and I saw multiple near-collisions between people making U-turns on a green arrow, people making rights on red who illegally failed to yield to the U-turners, and people coming up behind the U-turners trying to go left who wound up almost rear-ending U-turners who wrongly stopped to yield to the right-on-red crowd. That particular light is bad both because of a shopping center with access on only one side of the road and a McDonald's with access only on the other side.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on April 02, 2021, 04:52:05 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on April 02, 2021, 04:52:05 PM
Dedicated U-turn signals are rare. Maybe if there was a sign at that particular intersection saying "yield to U-turns", just to make drivers aware that such a movement does exist and is frequently used?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Big John on April 02, 2021, 04:58:13 PM
Post by: Big John on April 02, 2021, 04:58:13 PM
It depends on where you are,
From Illinois:
From Illinois:
QuoteThere are only two circumstances in which the vehicle making the U-turn (i.e., the second left turn) could claim the right of way: #The vehicle turning right failed to signal its intent to make a right turn. The cross street was marked "NO TURN ON RED," meaning the vehicle signaling a right turn could not have legally made it during the red light.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 02, 2021, 04:59:47 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 02, 2021, 04:59:47 PM
I think we need to make it more acceptable to not make a right on red. Just because you can doesn't mean you have to. It should be more like a choice and not an expectation, like going over the speed limit. I'm tired of getting honked at because I hesitated a little bit when visibility/sightlines were awful and pedestrians were walking around everywhere. I legally don't have the right of way, so don't force me into a dangerous situation where I could be at fault for anything that happens. Sometimes it makes things safer for everyone to simply wait until the light turns green.
And no, I'm not that driver. I just think people on the road need to have a little more patience.
And no, I'm not that driver. I just think people on the road need to have a little more patience.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: oscar on April 02, 2021, 05:10:41 PM
Post by: oscar on April 02, 2021, 05:10:41 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 02, 2021, 04:52:05 PM
Dedicated U-turn signals are rare. Maybe if there was a sign at that particular intersection saying "yield to U-turns", just to make drivers aware that such a movement does exist and is frequently used?
There is a sign at the busy intersection of Arlington Blvd. (US 50) and Patrick Henry Dr. in Seven Corners in Virginia, directing U-turning traffic to yield to right turns from NB Patrick Henry.
But this issue is a recurring problem in my Arlington VA neighborhood, where I often need to make a U-turn from northbound George Mason Dr. (on an unprotected green) at the Pershing Drive intersection, to get to street parking spaces in front of my apartment. It's common for EB Pershing Dr. traffic to attempt a right on red, conflicting with my U-turn. I'll have to honk, or glare, at the other driver to get him to yield. Since there's no protected green phase on NB George Mason (unlike in the Seven Corners situation), I often get little time to make the U-turn during a break in SB traffic, so it's only fair for EB Pershing Dr. traffic to wait for me to complete my U-turn.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: 1995hoo on April 02, 2021, 05:21:18 PM
Post by: 1995hoo on April 02, 2021, 05:21:18 PM
I've seen signs that say "Right on Red Must Yield to U-Turn," but it seems like every time I've seen one, it invariably gets knocked down or disappears within a week or two. The intersection that prompted me to think of the issue (Van Dorn Street at Edsall Road in Alexandria, Virginia) does not have such a sign. It does have two left-turn lanes from northbound Van Dorn, which is the direction where the problem primarily occurs, so I generally get in the right-hand left-turn lane if I want to turn left because I know the odds are high of getting stuck in the other lane behind a U-turner who will wrongly yield.
Incidentally, to emphasize, it's not a dedicated U-turn light–it's a left-turn green arrow. But someone going left, or making a U-turn, with a green arrow has a green light such that someone who wants to go right on red must yield (because he has a red). If the guy going right also had a green arrow, then the U-turner would have to yield, though I submit that's bad traffic light management if that happens (and it does on southbound Van Dorn at the Beltway, not far south of the other intersection mentioned above–there used to be a sign saying "U-Turn Must Yield to Right Turn," but it got knocked down so many times I guess VDOT gave up).
I do know of two dedicated U-turn lights near where I live, but neither has a conflict with right turns due to road layout. One is at the intersection seen at this link and the other is at the next intersection east of there:
https://goo.gl/maps/bsaRPpbZAxySbeXA9
Incidentally, to emphasize, it's not a dedicated U-turn light–it's a left-turn green arrow. But someone going left, or making a U-turn, with a green arrow has a green light such that someone who wants to go right on red must yield (because he has a red). If the guy going right also had a green arrow, then the U-turner would have to yield, though I submit that's bad traffic light management if that happens (and it does on southbound Van Dorn at the Beltway, not far south of the other intersection mentioned above–there used to be a sign saying "U-Turn Must Yield to Right Turn," but it got knocked down so many times I guess VDOT gave up).
I do know of two dedicated U-turn lights near where I live, but neither has a conflict with right turns due to road layout. One is at the intersection seen at this link and the other is at the next intersection east of there:
https://goo.gl/maps/bsaRPpbZAxySbeXA9
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 02, 2021, 09:35:25 PM
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 02, 2021, 09:35:25 PM
Quote from: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:09:22 PM
- I know most of us hate HAWK signals, and I agree, but I don't think regular traffic lights are the way to go. Flashing green (BC-style) is the way to go.
What's wrong with HAWK signals? When they're not in use, the lights stay dark, so less energy is used overall.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on April 02, 2021, 09:42:03 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on April 02, 2021, 09:42:03 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on April 02, 2021, 09:35:25 PMQuote from: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:09:22 PM
- I know most of us hate HAWK signals, and I agree, but I don't think regular traffic lights are the way to go. Flashing green (BC-style) is the way to go.
What's wrong with HAWK signals? When they're not in use, the lights stay dark, so less energy is used overall.
1. Dark = stop for every other signal.
2. Drivers don't seem to understand that you can go after the red starts flashing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on April 02, 2021, 09:50:24 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 02, 2021, 09:50:24 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on April 02, 2021, 09:35:25 PMQuote from: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:09:22 PM
- I know most of us hate HAWK signals, and I agree, but I don't think regular traffic lights are the way to go. Flashing green (BC-style) is the way to go.
What's wrong with HAWK signals? When they're not in use, the lights stay dark, so less energy is used overall.
Why are we being cheap when it comes to safety devices? If energy usage matters–which I would think an LED signal head would use a trivial amount of energy, but if–stick a solar panel on the damn thing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 02, 2021, 10:00:39 PM
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 02, 2021, 10:00:39 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 02, 2021, 09:42:03 PMQuote from: stridentweasel on April 02, 2021, 09:35:25 PM
What's wrong with HAWK signals? When they're not in use, the lights stay dark, so less energy is used overall.
1. Dark = stop for every other signal.
Didn't this forum already beat a similar issue to death with regards to flashing yellow arrows? What I mean is, the flashing circular yellow (beacon) traditionally meant "proceed with caution but watch out for potential hazard," but the flashing yellow arrow means "turn permitted but yield right-of-way." The thing that bothered people was that it changed the meaning of a flashing yellow light. But it has the distinct advantage of allowing "Dallas phasing" without having a confusing and contradictory simultaneous display of a circular green and circular red. So, the meanings of individual traffic signal displays becomes contextual (assuming that hasn't been the case all along, which it arguably has). HAWK signals just change the meaning of an all-dark signal. And, on that note, "dark signal = stop" only really applies to full-blown traffic signals, which these days always have at least three lenses in vertical or horizontal arrangement, which is not a feature of the HAWK signal. Is the average driver aware of that distinction? I suppose we could take a survey, but consider every other beacon signal that only flashes when needed. These have been in use for a long time as warning beacons for crosswalks, intersection approaches, and definitely for school zones. When they're not in use, they're dark, and never meant stop when dark.
Quote
2. Drivers don't seem to understand that you can go after the red starts flashing.
I've never seen this problem but I don't doubt it exists. Drivers are supposed to know that a flashing red means stop and then proceed when clear, but drivers are supposed to know a lot of things that they seem to ignore. Maybe add a sign to explain this when it becomes a problem?
Are there any actual studies showing costs versus benefits of HAWK signals versus traditional (full-blown traffic signal) crosswalk signals?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on April 02, 2021, 10:36:35 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 02, 2021, 10:36:35 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on April 02, 2021, 10:00:39 PM
Didn't this forum already beat a similar issue to death with regards to flashing yellow arrows? What I mean is, the flashing circular yellow (beacon) traditionally meant "proceed with caution but watch out for potential hazard," but the flashing yellow arrow means "turn permitted but yield right-of-way." The thing that bothered people was that it changed the meaning of a flashing yellow light.
I don't think that the FYA fundamentally changed the meaning of flashing yellow, but rather extended it–"turn permitted but yield right-of-way" is a more specific way of saying "proceed with caution but watch out for potential hazard (of oncoming traffic)". Thus most people were able to intuitively understand the meaning of an FYA the first time they encountered one. (Although not the guy that my wife T-boned a few years ago, apparently.)
The HAWK redefining "dark" from meaning "stop" to "go" is quite a bit more fundamental of a change.
Quote from: stridentweasel on April 02, 2021, 10:00:39 PM
I've never seen this problem but I don't doubt it exists. Drivers are supposed to know that a flashing red means stop and then proceed when clear, but drivers are supposed to know a lot of things that they seem to ignore. Maybe add a sign to explain this when it becomes a problem?
Every HAWK I've seen already has a sign explaining how it works.
I think the problem may be that flashing red stoplights always blink in unison, while HAWKs blink alternately, like a railroad crossing. I wonder if a HAWK were programmed to blink both reds in unison if that would improve understanding of what the signal is trying to communicate.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 02, 2021, 10:38:41 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 02, 2021, 10:38:41 PM
I'd also like to note that HAWKs can be confusing because they change the meaning of a double alternating red-flashing signal. When you're approaching a railroad crossing, that signal means stop and wait until it's completely dark. When you approach a HAWK, that same signal means you can go after stopping. This is in opposition to the single red-flashing signal that we see with stop beacons or conventional traffic lights set to flash-only mode. I never understood why HAWKs had to have the triple signal face with the double alternating red flash, and not just the aforementioned single red flash with an accompanying yellow. Maybe they can be switched to a two signal face design. I wouldn't be surprised if some drivers didn't realize that you can go after the red starts flashing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: MikeTheActuary on April 03, 2021, 07:10:56 PM
Post by: MikeTheActuary on April 03, 2021, 07:10:56 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on April 02, 2021, 10:38:41 PM
I'd also like to note that HAWKs can be confusing because they change the meaning of a double alternating red-flashing signal. When you're approaching a railroad crossing, that signal means stop and wait until it's completely dark.
Actually, the wigwam lights at rail crossings still mean "come to a complete stop and proceed only when safe".
There are circumstances where you should (cautiously) proceed through a rail crossing when the lights are flashing. However, driving around lowered barriers is (I think) universally illegal.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on April 03, 2021, 08:48:00 PM
Post by: vdeane on April 03, 2021, 08:48:00 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on April 03, 2021, 07:10:56 PMThat sounds like a good way to get run over by a train.
There are circumstances where you should (cautiously) proceed through a rail crossing when the lights are flashing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 03, 2021, 09:26:25 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 03, 2021, 09:26:25 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 03, 2021, 08:48:00 PMQuote from: MikeTheActuary on April 03, 2021, 07:10:56 PMThat sounds like a good way to get run over by a train.
There are circumstances where you should (cautiously) proceed through a rail crossing when the lights are flashing.
Agreed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ibthebigd on April 03, 2021, 09:26:34 PM
Post by: ibthebigd on April 03, 2021, 09:26:34 PM
Exit services need to say how far off the exit before you get off the exit.
SM-G950U
SM-G950U
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kernals12 on April 03, 2021, 11:44:32 PM
Post by: kernals12 on April 03, 2021, 11:44:32 PM
Left-hand ramps are a clever design that reduces costs and right of way requirements.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 04, 2021, 12:00:56 AM
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 04, 2021, 12:00:56 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on April 03, 2021, 11:44:32 PM
Left-hand ramps are a clever design that reduces costs and right of way requirements.
Do they really reduce costs? I would think two overpasses are generally more expensive than one.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on April 04, 2021, 12:10:09 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 04, 2021, 12:10:09 AM
Quote from: stridentweasel on April 04, 2021, 12:00:56 AMQuote from: kernals12 on April 03, 2021, 11:44:32 PM
Left-hand ramps are a clever design that reduces costs and right of way requirements.
Do they really reduce costs? I would think two overpasses are generally more expensive than one.
Generally, conflicting with facts makes an opinion unpopular, so at least it fits the thread...
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: texaskdog on April 04, 2021, 12:36:14 AM
Post by: texaskdog on April 04, 2021, 12:36:14 AM
Quote from: GaryV on April 02, 2021, 12:26:10 PMQuote from: Caps81943 on April 02, 2021, 12:09:22 PM
For 3di's, state-named shields are good,
Because people will get confused as to whether they are on I-275 in MI or FL?
sometime on long trips I just like the reassurance
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on April 04, 2021, 01:16:57 AM
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on April 04, 2021, 01:16:57 AM
If a freeway carries the same or fewer vehicles than a nearby surface road, it is likely best that the freeway be removed. Yes, I seriously have an irrational hatred for the Central Scranton Expressway; 307 carries just as much traffic!
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Occidental Tourist on April 04, 2021, 03:13:22 AM
Post by: Occidental Tourist on April 04, 2021, 03:13:22 AM
The word "junction" in front of a route shield on an interchange advance guide sign or interchange sequence sign is superfluous and should not be used.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 04, 2021, 08:23:29 AM
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 04, 2021, 08:23:29 AM
Quote from: vdeane on April 03, 2021, 08:48:00 PMQuote from: MikeTheActuary on April 03, 2021, 07:10:56 PMThat sounds like a good way to get run over by a train.
There are circumstances where you should (cautiously) proceed through a rail crossing when the lights are flashing.
That's necessary anyway. Sometimes lights malfunction. As long as you stop and look, it's OK to proceed if no train is in the area.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kernals12 on April 04, 2021, 09:06:47 AM
Post by: kernals12 on April 04, 2021, 09:06:47 AM
Quote from: stridentweasel on April 04, 2021, 12:00:56 AMQuote from: kernals12 on April 03, 2021, 11:44:32 PM
Left-hand ramps are a clever design that reduces costs and right of way requirements.
Do they really reduce costs? I would think two overpasses are generally more expensive than one.
They allow for shorter ramps.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: wanderer2575 on April 04, 2021, 10:01:32 AM
Post by: wanderer2575 on April 04, 2021, 10:01:32 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on April 02, 2021, 04:59:47 PM
I think we need to make it more acceptable to not make a right on red. Just because you can doesn't mean you have to. It should be more like a choice and not an expectation, like going over the speed limit. I'm tired of getting honked at because I hesitated a little bit when visibility/sightlines were awful and pedestrians were walking around everywhere. I legally don't have the right of way, so don't force me into a dangerous situation where I could be at fault for anything that happens. Sometimes it makes things safer for everyone to simply wait until the light turns green.
And no, I'm not that driver. I just think people on the road need to have a little more patience.
Agreed; let 'em honk. If I don't have a clear line of sight or otherwise don't feel comfortable, I'm not making a turn on red.
I'll note that a lot of the former comes from idiots stopping past the stop bar, into the crosswalk, even practically into the intersection. Like that will make the light turn green faster.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on April 04, 2021, 12:02:02 PM
Post by: vdeane on April 04, 2021, 12:02:02 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on April 04, 2021, 12:00:56 AMGiven his talk of ROW, I can't help but wonder if he's thinking of the Pulaski Skyway (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7363201,-74.0852673,3a,70.4y,59.98h,70.97t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sL1oRj4zCy6ST6RarNjIZZg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DL1oRj4zCy6ST6RarNjIZZg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D295.2489%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) configuration.Quote from: kernals12 on April 03, 2021, 11:44:32 PM
Left-hand ramps are a clever design that reduces costs and right of way requirements.
Do they really reduce costs? I would think two overpasses are generally more expensive than one.
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on April 04, 2021, 01:16:57 AMSo you'd like to double the amount of traffic on 307 by removing the CSE?
If a freeway carries the same or fewer vehicles than a nearby surface road, it is likely best that the freeway be removed. Yes, I seriously have an irrational hatred for the Central Scranton Expressway; 307 carries just as much traffic!
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: RobbieL2415 on April 04, 2021, 03:13:30 PM
Post by: RobbieL2415 on April 04, 2021, 03:13:30 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on April 03, 2021, 07:10:56 PMNot in my state. Grade crossing signals have always meant stop and remain stopped.Quote from: interstatefan990 on April 02, 2021, 10:38:41 PM
I'd also like to note that HAWKs can be confusing because they change the meaning of a double alternating red-flashing signal. When you're approaching a railroad crossing, that signal means stop and wait until it's completely dark.
Actually, the wigwam lights at rail crossings still mean "come to a complete stop and proceed only when safe".
There are circumstances where you should (cautiously) proceed through a rail crossing when the lights are flashing. However, driving around lowered barriers is (I think) universally illegal.
The only suggestion I could make would be to move towards dual-aspect signals similar to those used on railroads. Maybe "Stop then proceed" could be symbolized with a flashing red over a solid red and "stop and remain stopped" could be solid red over solid red.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on April 04, 2021, 04:45:32 PM
Post by: Hwy 61 Revisited on April 04, 2021, 04:45:32 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 04, 2021, 12:02:02 PMQuote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on April 04, 2021, 01:16:57 AMSo you'd like to double the amount of traffic on 307 by removing the CSE?
If a freeway carries the same or fewer vehicles than a nearby surface road, it is likely best that the freeway be removed. Yes, I seriously have an irrational hatred for the Central Scranton Expressway; 307 carries just as much traffic!
Honestly, I flip-flop a lot on whether it's necessary or not.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 02:43:01 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 02:43:01 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on April 04, 2021, 09:06:47 AMQuote from: stridentweasel on April 04, 2021, 12:00:56 AMQuote from: kernals12 on April 03, 2021, 11:44:32 PM
Left-hand ramps are a clever design that reduces costs and right of way requirements.
Do they really reduce costs? I would think two overpasses are generally more expensive than one.
They allow for shorter ramps.
This one is going to be very context dependent. I am generally a fan of using them in urban areas where it will save land or cost or both, but putting them in rural areas is unlikly to save much and creates unnecessary driver confusion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: RobbieL2415 on April 05, 2021, 02:57:21 PM
Post by: RobbieL2415 on April 05, 2021, 02:57:21 PM
Switch to dual-aspect signals.
For example:
Double solid red: stop and remain stopped
Flashing red over solid red: Stop and proceed only when intersection clear.
Flashing yellow over solid red: proceed towards signal with caution, prepare for next signal to show solid yellow over solid red
Solid yellow over solid red: slow down and stop, next signal phase double red.
Alternating flashing yellow: proceed with caution
Green arrow(s) over solid red: proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Yellow arrow(s) over solid red: slow down and stop or prepare to give way in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Flashing red arrow(s) over solid red: stop and proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Solid green over solid green, flashing green over solid green: proceed, give way if turning
Solid green arrow over solid green: proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic proceed
Flashing yellow arrow over solid green: give way in indicated direction, all other traffic proceed
Dark over flashing blue: special signal, proceed unless phase changes
Alternating flashing orange: Work zone active
For example:
Double solid red: stop and remain stopped
Flashing red over solid red: Stop and proceed only when intersection clear.
Flashing yellow over solid red: proceed towards signal with caution, prepare for next signal to show solid yellow over solid red
Solid yellow over solid red: slow down and stop, next signal phase double red.
Alternating flashing yellow: proceed with caution
Green arrow(s) over solid red: proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Yellow arrow(s) over solid red: slow down and stop or prepare to give way in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Flashing red arrow(s) over solid red: stop and proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Solid green over solid green, flashing green over solid green: proceed, give way if turning
Solid green arrow over solid green: proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic proceed
Flashing yellow arrow over solid green: give way in indicated direction, all other traffic proceed
Dark over flashing blue: special signal, proceed unless phase changes
Alternating flashing orange: Work zone active
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: I-55 on April 05, 2021, 04:17:06 PM
Post by: I-55 on April 05, 2021, 04:17:06 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 05, 2021, 02:57:21 PM
Switch to dual-aspect signals.
For example:
Double solid red: stop and remain stopped
Flashing red over solid red: Stop and proceed only when intersection clear.
Flashing yellow over solid red: proceed towards signal with caution, prepare for next signal to show solid yellow over solid red
Solid yellow over solid red: slow down and stop, next signal phase double red.
Alternating flashing yellow: proceed with caution
Green arrow(s) over solid red: proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Yellow arrow(s) over solid red: slow down and stop or prepare to give way in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Flashing red arrow(s) over solid red: stop and proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Solid green over solid green, flashing green over solid green: proceed, give way if turning
Solid green arrow over solid green: proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic proceed
Flashing yellow arrow over solid green: give way in indicated direction, all other traffic proceed
Dark over flashing blue: special signal, proceed unless phase changes
Alternating flashing orange: Work zone active
Unless you're used to reading railroad signals this seems like it would confuse a lot of drivers. I understand how to read most 3 stack signals with 4 colors, but for all the different patterns given it would be confusing for the average motorist, many of whom are confused by our current traffic signal repertoire however that's possible granted we have signs with words next to almost all signals.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2021, 04:32:07 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2021, 04:32:07 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 05, 2021, 02:57:21 PM
Switch to dual-aspect signals.
For example:
Double solid red: stop and remain stopped
Flashing red over solid red: Stop and proceed only when intersection clear.
Flashing yellow over solid red: proceed towards signal with caution, prepare for next signal to show solid yellow over solid red
Solid yellow over solid red: slow down and stop, next signal phase double red.
Alternating flashing yellow: proceed with caution
Green arrow(s) over solid red: proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Yellow arrow(s) over solid red: slow down and stop or prepare to give way in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Flashing red arrow(s) over solid red: stop and proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Solid green over solid green, flashing green over solid green: proceed, give way if turning
Solid green arrow over solid green: proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic proceed
Flashing yellow arrow over solid green: give way in indicated direction, all other traffic proceed
Dark over flashing blue: special signal, proceed unless phase changes
Alternating flashing orange: Work zone active
People struggle with roundabouts, and you are making this suggestion?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2021, 04:32:07 PMQuote from: RobbieL2415 on April 05, 2021, 02:57:21 PM
Switch to dual-aspect signals.
For example:
Double solid red: stop and remain stopped
Flashing red over solid red: Stop and proceed only when intersection clear.
Flashing yellow over solid red: proceed towards signal with caution, prepare for next signal to show solid yellow over solid red
Solid yellow over solid red: slow down and stop, next signal phase double red.
Alternating flashing yellow: proceed with caution
Green arrow(s) over solid red: proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Yellow arrow(s) over solid red: slow down and stop or prepare to give way in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Flashing red arrow(s) over solid red: stop and proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Solid green over solid green, flashing green over solid green: proceed, give way if turning
Solid green arrow over solid green: proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic proceed
Flashing yellow arrow over solid green: give way in indicated direction, all other traffic proceed
Dark over flashing blue: special signal, proceed unless phase changes
Alternating flashing orange: Work zone active
People struggle with roundabouts, and you are making this suggestion?
Roundabouts are difficult because its never clear if you have the right of way or not.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hbelkins on April 05, 2021, 04:48:38 PM
Post by: hbelkins on April 05, 2021, 04:48:38 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Roundabouts are difficult because its never clear if you have the right of way or not.
No, it's always clear. Vehicles in the circle have the right of way and drivers approaching the circle must yield.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:54:59 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:54:59 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 05, 2021, 04:48:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Roundabouts are difficult because its never clear if you have the right of way or not.
No, it's always clear. Vehicles in the circle have the right of way and drivers approaching the circle must yield.
Yeah but good luck deciding when a vehicle is going to be in the circle or not. Is the car coming going to exit or is it going to continue? In a world where people actually did what they were supposed to, used blinkers, etc. it would be fine, but in practice they are usually an accident waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: 1995hoo on April 05, 2021, 04:57:20 PM
Post by: 1995hoo on April 05, 2021, 04:57:20 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:54:59 PMQuote from: hbelkins on April 05, 2021, 04:48:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Roundabouts are difficult because its never clear if you have the right of way or not.
No, it's always clear. Vehicles in the circle have the right of way and drivers approaching the circle must yield.
Yeah but good luck deciding when a vehicle is going to be in the circle or not. Is the car coming going to exit or is it going to continue? In a world where people actually did what they were supposed to, used blinkers, etc. it would be fine, but in practice they are usually an accident waiting to happen.
If you don't know, you have to assume the vehicle will stay on the roundabout. It's unfortunate that so many buffoons think they're exempt from using their blinkers, but that's not an excuse for causing an accident.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Steve.S on April 05, 2021, 04:59:27 PM
Post by: Steve.S on April 05, 2021, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:54:59 PMC'mon...roundabouts are about as simple as you can get. Yield to traffic from the left (or from the right in Commonwealth countries). Why make it seem so difficult?Quote from: hbelkins on April 05, 2021, 04:48:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Roundabouts are difficult because its never clear if you have the right of way or not.
No, it's always clear. Vehicles in the circle have the right of way and drivers approaching the circle must yield.
Yeah but good luck deciding when a vehicle is going to be in the circle or not. Is the car coming going to exit or is it going to continue? In a world where people actually did what they were supposed to, used blinkers, etc. it would be fine, but in practice they are usually an accident waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 05:01:05 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 05:01:05 PM
Quote from: Steve.S on April 05, 2021, 04:59:27 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:54:59 PMC'mon...roundabouts are about as simple as you can get. Yield to traffic from the left (or from the right in Commonwealth countries). Why make it seem so difficult?Quote from: hbelkins on April 05, 2021, 04:48:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Roundabouts are difficult because its never clear if you have the right of way or not.
No, it's always clear. Vehicles in the circle have the right of way and drivers approaching the circle must yield.
Yeah but good luck deciding when a vehicle is going to be in the circle or not. Is the car coming going to exit or is it going to continue? In a world where people actually did what they were supposed to, used blinkers, etc. it would be fine, but in practice they are usually an accident waiting to happen.
Yes, but that "traffic" is coming aground an (often) blind corner and may or may not turn, so it is difficult to say if it will be there or not.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on April 05, 2021, 05:10:13 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on April 05, 2021, 05:10:13 PM
There's also the issue of whether something is a roundabout or not. I-95/US 1 (sequential exit 50) in Danvers, MA is somewhat in that gray area; while it leans toward not being one, there are others that are much more ambiguous.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on April 05, 2021, 05:53:37 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on April 05, 2021, 05:53:37 PM
Here's how I see traffic signals:
Green = go
Solid yellow = still green, but it's going to end in a few seconds
Flashing yellow = basically treat it as if nothing is there. When continuing straight, this means you have priority (as flashing yellows are put on the main road). When turning, you have to yield to other movements as you would without a signal. If somehow a flashing yellow up arrow exists intended as a FYA, this would be a major violation and should not exist.
Red = stop and stay stopped. Turn on red (including ball/arrow, rightmost lane only, and LTOR) is a feature of the law, not of the signal itself.
Flashing red, including at a rail crossing = stop once, then continue when safe. (For railroad crossings, gates may prevent you from continuing, but that's a physical barrier, not part of the meaning of the signal.)
Dark = same as flashing red, usually caused by power outage.
An arrow overrides a ball for that particular direction. Arrows do nothing except indicate direction except for the states where turn on red arrow is not allowed; this includes flashing yellow.
HAWKs follow these rules for flashing reds but not the dark portion.
Green = go
Solid yellow = still green, but it's going to end in a few seconds
Flashing yellow = basically treat it as if nothing is there. When continuing straight, this means you have priority (as flashing yellows are put on the main road). When turning, you have to yield to other movements as you would without a signal. If somehow a flashing yellow up arrow exists intended as a FYA, this would be a major violation and should not exist.
Red = stop and stay stopped. Turn on red (including ball/arrow, rightmost lane only, and LTOR) is a feature of the law, not of the signal itself.
Flashing red, including at a rail crossing = stop once, then continue when safe. (For railroad crossings, gates may prevent you from continuing, but that's a physical barrier, not part of the meaning of the signal.)
Dark = same as flashing red, usually caused by power outage.
An arrow overrides a ball for that particular direction. Arrows do nothing except indicate direction except for the states where turn on red arrow is not allowed; this includes flashing yellow.
HAWKs follow these rules for flashing reds but not the dark portion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 05, 2021, 06:02:28 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 05, 2021, 06:02:28 PM
I'd say most people hate roundabouts not because of right-of-way confusion, but because it is the only type of roadway design that constantly requires you to be turning the steering wheel and following a curve. Focusing on that and looking for the correct exit is a stressful task for those people. It goes against what the average driver is used to.
Dark signals aren't always the same as flashing reds. All dark signals are all-way stops, but not all flashing reds are all-way stops. Flashing reds are almost always posted at places where you have to yield to other traffic, whether that be someone who has stopped at the intersection before you, or non-stopping through traffic that may or may not have a flashing yellow.
Quote from: 1 on April 05, 2021, 05:53:37 PM
Dark = same as flashing red, usually caused by power outage.
Dark signals aren't always the same as flashing reds. All dark signals are all-way stops, but not all flashing reds are all-way stops. Flashing reds are almost always posted at places where you have to yield to other traffic, whether that be someone who has stopped at the intersection before you, or non-stopping through traffic that may or may not have a flashing yellow.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Dirt Roads on April 05, 2021, 06:12:11 PM
Post by: Dirt Roads on April 05, 2021, 06:12:11 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 05, 2021, 05:53:37 PM
Dark = same as flashing red, usually caused by power outage.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on April 05, 2021, 06:02:28 PM
Dark signals aren't always the same as flashing reds. All dark signals are all-way stops, but not all flashing reds are all-way stops. Flashing reds are almost always posted at places where you have to yield to other traffic, whether that be someone who has stopped at the intersection before you, or non-stopping through traffic that may or may not have a flashing yellow.
Indeed. My son gets confused sometimes on his route home from school. There are two back-to-back intersections with stop signs and flashing reds that are nearly identical. Only one of them is marked "All Way Stop".
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 05, 2021, 06:18:33 PM
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 05, 2021, 06:18:33 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 05, 2021, 04:48:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Roundabouts are difficult because its never clear if you have the right of way or not.
No, it's always clear. Vehicles in the circle have the right of way and drivers approaching the circle must yield.
Actually, in many state laws, the opposite is true. The laws generally state, when there's no control, motorists on the left must yield to those on the right. In that case, traffic going into the roundabout would have the right of way; those within the circle must yield.
What makes the roundabouts work is that there's signage. Yield signs posted for those entering the roundabout override that basic traffic rule. Thus, traffic entering the roundabout must yield, and that yield sign now gives those within the roundabout the right of way.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Steve.S on April 05, 2021, 06:42:22 PM
Post by: Steve.S on April 05, 2021, 06:42:22 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on April 05, 2021, 06:02:28 PM
I'd say most people hate roundabouts not because of right-of-way confusion, but because it is the only type of roadway design that constantly requires you to be turning the steering wheel and following a curve. Focusing on that and looking for the correct exit is a stressful task for those people. It goes against what the average driver is used to.
Meh. Just circle until you figure out which exit is yours.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Big John on April 05, 2021, 06:49:08 PM
Post by: Big John on April 05, 2021, 06:49:08 PM
Big Ben....Parliament
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: wanderer2575 on April 05, 2021, 08:28:28 PM
Post by: wanderer2575 on April 05, 2021, 08:28:28 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 05:01:05 PMQuote from: Steve.S on April 05, 2021, 04:59:27 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:54:59 PMC'mon...roundabouts are about as simple as you can get. Yield to traffic from the left (or from the right in Commonwealth countries). Why make it seem so difficult?Quote from: hbelkins on April 05, 2021, 04:48:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Roundabouts are difficult because its never clear if you have the right of way or not.
No, it's always clear. Vehicles in the circle have the right of way and drivers approaching the circle must yield.
Yeah but good luck deciding when a vehicle is going to be in the circle or not. Is the car coming going to exit or is it going to continue? In a world where people actually did what they were supposed to, used blinkers, etc. it would be fine, but in practice they are usually an accident waiting to happen.
Yes, but that "traffic" is coming aground an (often) blind corner and may or may not turn, so it is difficult to say if it will be there or not.
How is that any different than a standard intersection? If I'm turning right at an intersection, I don't know if the approaching vehicle already on that road will turn so I wait until it turns or goes past me. Even with its blinker on, I usually wait. Too many idiots driving for miles oblivious to their blinkers being on.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 08:47:04 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 08:47:04 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on April 05, 2021, 08:28:28 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 05:01:05 PMQuote from: Steve.S on April 05, 2021, 04:59:27 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:54:59 PMC'mon...roundabouts are about as simple as you can get. Yield to traffic from the left (or from the right in Commonwealth countries). Why make it seem so difficult?Quote from: hbelkins on April 05, 2021, 04:48:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Roundabouts are difficult because its never clear if you have the right of way or not.
No, it's always clear. Vehicles in the circle have the right of way and drivers approaching the circle must yield.
Yeah but good luck deciding when a vehicle is going to be in the circle or not. Is the car coming going to exit or is it going to continue? In a world where people actually did what they were supposed to, used blinkers, etc. it would be fine, but in practice they are usually an accident waiting to happen.
Yes, but that "traffic" is coming aground an (often) blind corner and may or may not turn, so it is difficult to say if it will be there or not.
How is that any different than a standard intersection? If I'm turning right at an intersection, I don't know if the approaching vehicle already on that road will turn so I wait until it turns or goes past me. Even with its blinker on, I usually wait. Too many idiots driving for miles oblivious to their blinkers being on.
Invalid comparison. Right on red is not a requirement, you will get a green eventually, you do not have to turn with a red light, whereas you MUST turn eventually with a roundabout. And most intersections give you much more view than a roundabout does.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on April 05, 2021, 09:09:49 PM
Post by: vdeane on April 05, 2021, 09:09:49 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 05:01:05 PMIf they're far enough away that you'd have to wait any significant time to find out which way they're going, they're far enough away that a driver who accelerates at a reasonable speed should be well on their way before it matters which way the other car is going.Quote from: Steve.S on April 05, 2021, 04:59:27 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:54:59 PMC'mon...roundabouts are about as simple as you can get. Yield to traffic from the left (or from the right in Commonwealth countries). Why make it seem so difficult?Quote from: hbelkins on April 05, 2021, 04:48:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Roundabouts are difficult because its never clear if you have the right of way or not.
No, it's always clear. Vehicles in the circle have the right of way and drivers approaching the circle must yield.
Yeah but good luck deciding when a vehicle is going to be in the circle or not. Is the car coming going to exit or is it going to continue? In a world where people actually did what they were supposed to, used blinkers, etc. it would be fine, but in practice they are usually an accident waiting to happen.
Yes, but that "traffic" is coming aground an (often) blind corner and may or may not turn, so it is difficult to say if it will be there or not.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 08:47:04 PMHe didn't say anything about a traffic light. This kind of thing can happen at ANY intersection, including uncontrolled driveways from businesses onto a major road.Quote from: wanderer2575 on April 05, 2021, 08:28:28 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 05:01:05 PMQuote from: Steve.S on April 05, 2021, 04:59:27 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:54:59 PMC'mon...roundabouts are about as simple as you can get. Yield to traffic from the left (or from the right in Commonwealth countries). Why make it seem so difficult?Quote from: hbelkins on April 05, 2021, 04:48:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Roundabouts are difficult because its never clear if you have the right of way or not.
No, it's always clear. Vehicles in the circle have the right of way and drivers approaching the circle must yield.
Yeah but good luck deciding when a vehicle is going to be in the circle or not. Is the car coming going to exit or is it going to continue? In a world where people actually did what they were supposed to, used blinkers, etc. it would be fine, but in practice they are usually an accident waiting to happen.
Yes, but that "traffic" is coming aground an (often) blind corner and may or may not turn, so it is difficult to say if it will be there or not.
How is that any different than a standard intersection? If I'm turning right at an intersection, I don't know if the approaching vehicle already on that road will turn so I wait until it turns or goes past me. Even with its blinker on, I usually wait. Too many idiots driving for miles oblivious to their blinkers being on.
Invalid comparison. Right on red is not a requirement, you will get a green eventually, you do not have to turn with a red light, whereas you MUST turn eventually with a roundabout. And most intersections give you much more view than a roundabout does.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 09:12:20 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 09:12:20 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 05, 2021, 09:09:49 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 05:01:05 PMIf they're far enough away that you'd have to wait any significant time to find out which way they're going, they're far enough away that a driver who accelerates at a reasonable speed should be well on their way before it matters which way the other car is going.Quote from: Steve.S on April 05, 2021, 04:59:27 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:54:59 PMC'mon...roundabouts are about as simple as you can get. Yield to traffic from the left (or from the right in Commonwealth countries). Why make it seem so difficult?Quote from: hbelkins on April 05, 2021, 04:48:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Roundabouts are difficult because its never clear if you have the right of way or not.
No, it's always clear. Vehicles in the circle have the right of way and drivers approaching the circle must yield.
Yeah but good luck deciding when a vehicle is going to be in the circle or not. Is the car coming going to exit or is it going to continue? In a world where people actually did what they were supposed to, used blinkers, etc. it would be fine, but in practice they are usually an accident waiting to happen.
Yes, but that "traffic" is coming aground an (often) blind corner and may or may not turn, so it is difficult to say if it will be there or not.Quote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 08:47:04 PMHe didn't say anything about a traffic light. This kind of thing can happen at ANY intersection, including uncontrolled driveways from businesses onto a major road.Quote from: wanderer2575 on April 05, 2021, 08:28:28 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 05:01:05 PMQuote from: Steve.S on April 05, 2021, 04:59:27 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:54:59 PMC'mon...roundabouts are about as simple as you can get. Yield to traffic from the left (or from the right in Commonwealth countries). Why make it seem so difficult?Quote from: hbelkins on April 05, 2021, 04:48:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Roundabouts are difficult because its never clear if you have the right of way or not.
No, it's always clear. Vehicles in the circle have the right of way and drivers approaching the circle must yield.
Yeah but good luck deciding when a vehicle is going to be in the circle or not. Is the car coming going to exit or is it going to continue? In a world where people actually did what they were supposed to, used blinkers, etc. it would be fine, but in practice they are usually an accident waiting to happen.
Yes, but that "traffic" is coming aground an (often) blind corner and may or may not turn, so it is difficult to say if it will be there or not.
How is that any different than a standard intersection? If I'm turning right at an intersection, I don't know if the approaching vehicle already on that road will turn so I wait until it turns or goes past me. Even with its blinker on, I usually wait. Too many idiots driving for miles oblivious to their blinkers being on.
Invalid comparison. Right on red is not a requirement, you will get a green eventually, you do not have to turn with a red light, whereas you MUST turn eventually with a roundabout. And most intersections give you much more view than a roundabout does.
It does not matter. Any intersection without a traffic light should be sufficiently low traffic for that to not be an issue. And in any case the line of sight is better without the roundabout.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on April 05, 2021, 09:16:46 PM
Post by: vdeane on April 05, 2021, 09:16:46 PM
If you've never had that happen to you at an intersection without a traffic light, I'm honestly starting to question if you've ever operated a motor vehicle. And line of sight shouldn't be much of an issue given the low-speed nature of the roundabout. Are you the type of person who drives like 0-60 in anything less than a full minute is ludicrously fast?
Take this intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7334779,-73.7625627,3a,75y,60.05h,71.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgCGbwlE4Yx5IW5pN5JV0Zw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). I deal with it all the time. Often, I have to wait for someone with their blinker on, not sure where they will turn (there are a LOT of business driveways here) or even if they will. Often there will be a line of cars behind them. Do I get to go eventually? Yes, and usually without more than one car behind me. But the point is, I could have gone sooner if I knew exactly where/if that car was going to turn, and this wasn't a signalized intersection or a roundabout (nor should it be).
Take this intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7334779,-73.7625627,3a,75y,60.05h,71.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgCGbwlE4Yx5IW5pN5JV0Zw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). I deal with it all the time. Often, I have to wait for someone with their blinker on, not sure where they will turn (there are a LOT of business driveways here) or even if they will. Often there will be a line of cars behind them. Do I get to go eventually? Yes, and usually without more than one car behind me. But the point is, I could have gone sooner if I knew exactly where/if that car was going to turn, and this wasn't a signalized intersection or a roundabout (nor should it be).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on April 05, 2021, 11:17:04 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on April 05, 2021, 11:17:04 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 27, 2021, 10:44:20 PM
Interstate shields without state names are better than those with.
State shape-outline shields are bad.
There are no boring roads, at lease with respect to scenery and being "worth it" to drive on.
That said, two-lane roads are annoying if, for whatever reason, you have to wait more than a minute or so to pass.
Complex urban freeways are good, when traffic is flowing.
When the car in front of you turns or exits at the same place as you is bad.
Most control cities are too small or otherwise insufficiently well known.
Control states are fine, at least under certain conditions.
Higher digits should be used more often in 3di's, especially to reduce repetition. For example, there are eight 295's, but only one 895.
You should not be able to turn at a red arrow.
Google Maps needs a legend, somewhere.
Adaptive cruise control is bad, unless there's some way to keep it from following my rear bumper for twenty or so miles.
Some of the ways exits are laid out along or near frontage roads in Texas are bad.
Tolled routes and crossings are bad.
Listening to music while driving is bad.
Cable-stayed bridges are okay.
Rural illuminated highways are bad.
Front license plates are good. Or at least, the aesthetic impact of the plate is an insufficient justification for its absence.
Speed cameras on freeways are bad.
Red light cameras, however, aren't inherently bad, but you should get about a second of leeway after the light turns red, to make up for any edge cases.
When turning onto a road with more than one lane, you can turn into whatever lane you want.
Exit Only indications are not needed on APL signs.
Oh, and one more thing: I don't like when people say "amber" instead of "yellow" when referring to the color of road signs, pavement markings, and lights. Luckily for me, at least at this time, the MUTCD agrees with me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: RobbieL2415 on April 06, 2021, 11:33:53 AM
Post by: RobbieL2415 on April 06, 2021, 11:33:53 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 05, 2021, 04:32:07 PMYes. Yes, indeed.Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 05, 2021, 02:57:21 PM
Switch to dual-aspect signals.
For example:
Double solid red: stop and remain stopped
Flashing red over solid red: Stop and proceed only when intersection clear.
Flashing yellow over solid red: proceed towards signal with caution, prepare for next signal to show solid yellow over solid red
Solid yellow over solid red: slow down and stop, next signal phase double red.
Alternating flashing yellow: proceed with caution
Green arrow(s) over solid red: proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Yellow arrow(s) over solid red: slow down and stop or prepare to give way in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Flashing red arrow(s) over solid red: stop and proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic stop and remain stopped
Solid green over solid green, flashing green over solid green: proceed, give way if turning
Solid green arrow over solid green: proceed in indicated direction, all other traffic proceed
Flashing yellow arrow over solid green: give way in indicated direction, all other traffic proceed
Dark over flashing blue: special signal, proceed unless phase changes
Alternating flashing orange: Work zone active
People struggle with roundabouts, and you are making this suggestion?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 06, 2021, 03:55:46 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 06, 2021, 03:55:46 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on April 02, 2021, 10:00:39 PM
Didn't this forum already beat a similar issue to death with regards to flashing yellow arrows? What I mean is, the flashing circular yellow (beacon) traditionally meant "proceed with caution but watch out for potential hazard," but the flashing yellow arrow means "turn permitted but yield right-of-way." The thing that bothered people was that it changed the meaning of a flashing yellow light.
Beacon = Traffic is being told to use caution.
FYA = Left-turning traffic is being told to use caution.
Quote from: 1 on April 02, 2021, 09:42:03 PM
1. Dark = stop for every other signal.
Railroad crossing signals: Dark = don't stop.
HAWK signals: Dark = don't stop.
Neither one uses a standard RYG, so confusion doesn't really exist in either case.
Quote from: 1 on April 02, 2021, 09:42:03 PM
2. Drivers don't seem to understand that you can go after the red starts flashing.
If we used a RYG signal instead of a HAWK but introduced a flashing red phase, then the same misunderstanding would likely still exist.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on April 06, 2021, 04:42:16 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on April 06, 2021, 04:42:16 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 06, 2021, 03:55:46 PMQuote from: stridentweasel on April 02, 2021, 10:00:39 PM
Didn't this forum already beat a similar issue to death with regards to flashing yellow arrows? What I mean is, the flashing circular yellow (beacon) traditionally meant "proceed with caution but watch out for potential hazard," but the flashing yellow arrow means "turn permitted but yield right-of-way." The thing that bothered people was that it changed the meaning of a flashing yellow light.
Beacon = Traffic is being told to use caution.
FYA = Left-turning traffic is being told to use caution.
With a beacon, you have the right of way if going straight. That said, turning on a flashing yellow requires yielding whether it's an arrow or not, so it's not a new meaning.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 06, 2021, 04:51:58 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 06, 2021, 04:51:58 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 06, 2021, 04:42:16 PM
With a beacon, you have the right of way if going straight.
Not if that beacon is above a crosswalk. :-P
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: NoGoodNamesAvailable on April 06, 2021, 06:17:22 PM
Post by: NoGoodNamesAvailable on April 06, 2021, 06:17:22 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 05, 2021, 09:16:46 PM
If you've never had that happen to you at an intersection without a traffic light, I'm honestly starting to question if you've ever operated a motor vehicle. And line of sight shouldn't be much of an issue given the low-speed nature of the roundabout. Are you the type of person who drives like 0-60 in anything less than a full minute is ludicrously fast?
Take this intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7334779,-73.7625627,3a,75y,60.05h,71.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgCGbwlE4Yx5IW5pN5JV0Zw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). I deal with it all the time. Often, I have to wait for someone with their blinker on, not sure where they will turn (there are a LOT of business driveways here) or even if they will. Often there will be a line of cars behind them. Do I get to go eventually? Yes, and usually without more than one car behind me. But the point is, I could have gone sooner if I knew exactly where/if that car was going to turn, and this wasn't a signalized intersection or a roundabout (nor should it be).
Basic defensive driving dictates that you should never pull out based on a driver's turn signal until you actually see the vehicle beginning to turn into the side road. And if you were to pull out in front of a vehicle based on a turn signal, even if there were no other side roads around, you would be found fully at fault or mostly at fault by insurance. I never rely on turn signals when I drive and I have never run into an issue.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jamess on April 06, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
Post by: jamess on April 06, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
"School Zone When Children Are Present" is dumb
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hbelkins on April 06, 2021, 08:24:27 PM
Post by: hbelkins on April 06, 2021, 08:24:27 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:54:59 PMQuote from: hbelkins on April 05, 2021, 04:48:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Roundabouts are difficult because its never clear if you have the right of way or not.
No, it's always clear. Vehicles in the circle have the right of way and drivers approaching the circle must yield.
Yeah but good luck deciding when a vehicle is going to be in the circle or not. Is the car coming going to exit or is it going to continue? In a world where people actually did what they were supposed to, used blinkers, etc. it would be fine, but in practice they are usually an accident waiting to happen.
I actually almost sorta agree with you here, to a point. My beef with roundabouts is that if they're busy, it may take awhile before you can enter the circle. Different people have different points at which they're comfortable pulling out into traffic. I tend to be more cautious and will wait to, for instance, turn left on a green ball/FYA, or turn right from a stop sign onto a through route. And different vehicles tend to accelerate faster than others. And if I don't pull into the roundabout fast enough to suit the guy behind me, who may have made a different safety judgment as to when it was OK to try to enter the circle, he gets frustrated or mad.
It's why I prefer a signal or even an all-way stop to a roundabout. You know you'll eventually get your turn to enter/pass through the intersection. I think that's why roundabouts are touted more as safety improvements than as traffic flow improvements.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ran4sh on April 06, 2021, 10:47:53 PM
Post by: ran4sh on April 06, 2021, 10:47:53 PM
Quote from: ibthebigd on April 03, 2021, 09:26:34 PM
Exit services need to say how far off the exit before you get off the exit.
SM-G950U
If this is referring to the businesses indicated on "logo" signs (Specific Service signs), they're only supposed to be a certain maximum distance from the exit, and some states, when those signs are full, priority is given to the businesses nearer to the exit.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 09:14:02 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 09:14:02 AM
Quote from: jamess on April 06, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
"School Zone When Children Are Present" is dumb
Why?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jamess on April 07, 2021, 04:20:52 PM
Post by: jamess on April 07, 2021, 04:20:52 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 09:14:02 AMQuote from: jamess on April 06, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
"School Zone When Children Are Present" is dumb
Why?
Asking a driver to determine if an individual is or is not a child, and if their location counts or doesnt count as "present" is not good policy.
Especially where the regular speed limit is 45mph and the school speed limit is 25mph.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 07, 2021, 04:39:27 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 07, 2021, 04:39:27 PM
Quote from: jamess on April 07, 2021, 04:20:52 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 09:14:02 AMQuote from: jamess on April 06, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
"School Zone When Children Are Present" is dumb
Why?
Asking a driver to determine if an individual is or is not a child, and if their location counts or doesnt count as "present" is not good policy.
Especially where the regular speed limit is 45mph and the school speed limit is 25mph.
You make a good point.
Even worse is "on school days when children are present". Am I supposed to keep track of the school schedule now, too?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jamess on April 07, 2021, 05:39:21 PM
Post by: jamess on April 07, 2021, 05:39:21 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 07, 2021, 04:39:27 PMQuote from: jamess on April 07, 2021, 04:20:52 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 09:14:02 AMQuote from: jamess on April 06, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
"School Zone When Children Are Present" is dumb
Why?
Asking a driver to determine if an individual is or is not a child, and if their location counts or doesnt count as "present" is not good policy.
Especially where the regular speed limit is 45mph and the school speed limit is 25mph.
You make a good point.
Even worse is "on school days when children are present". Am I supposed to keep track of the school schedule now, too?
On that note, parking areas which are "9am to 6pm - 10pm on event days" is just as useless. Am I supposed to memorize the Opera schedule...?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 07, 2021, 06:18:04 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 07, 2021, 06:18:04 PM
Quote from: jamess on April 07, 2021, 04:20:52 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 09:14:02 AMQuote from: jamess on April 06, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
"School Zone When Children Are Present" is dumb
Why?
Asking a driver to determine if an individual is or is not a child, and if their location counts or doesnt count as "present" is not good policy.
Especially where the regular speed limit is 45mph and the school speed limit is 25mph.
Even worse, when a school speed limit sign has "higher fines" and "when flashing" on the same sign post and you can't tell whether the school speed limit is always in effect or if higher fines are always in effect.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 07:51:27 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 07:51:27 PM
Quote from: jamess on April 07, 2021, 04:20:52 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 09:14:02 AMQuote from: jamess on April 06, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
"School Zone When Children Are Present" is dumb
Why?
Asking a driver to determine if an individual is or is not a child, and if their location counts or doesnt count as "present" is not good policy.
Especially where the regular speed limit is 45mph and the school speed limit is 25mph.
I think it pretty much means that this major street is a school zone when you see kids around. Honestly I have never seen such signs as problematic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 07, 2021, 07:57:22 PM
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 07, 2021, 07:57:22 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 07:51:27 PMQuote from: jamess on April 07, 2021, 04:20:52 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 09:14:02 AMQuote from: jamess on April 06, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
"School Zone When Children Are Present" is dumb
Why?
Asking a driver to determine if an individual is or is not a child, and if their location counts or doesnt count as "present" is not good policy.
Especially where the regular speed limit is 45mph and the school speed limit is 25mph.
I think it pretty much means that this major street is a school zone when you see kids around. Honestly I have never seen such signs as problematic.
I've learned that NJ treats these signs as "30 minutes before school starts, 30 minutes after school ends, and during recess". It's very vague, no one knows when those times actually are, and it doesn't appear kids actually have to be in the area.
That said, it doesn't appear most NJ towns are very forceful of the school speed limits. If you're going 50 in a 40, when the school limit is 30 mph, and you get stopped, maybe the best you can hope for is a ticket for 10 over rather than 20 over since you were speeding anyway.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on April 07, 2021, 10:00:32 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on April 07, 2021, 10:00:32 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 07, 2021, 07:57:22 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 07:51:27 PMQuote from: jamess on April 07, 2021, 04:20:52 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 09:14:02 AMQuote from: jamess on April 06, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
"School Zone When Children Are Present" is dumb
Why?
Asking a driver to determine if an individual is or is not a child, and if their location counts or doesnt count as "present" is not good policy.
Especially where the regular speed limit is 45mph and the school speed limit is 25mph.
I think it pretty much means that this major street is a school zone when you see kids around. Honestly I have never seen such signs as problematic.
I've learned that NJ treats these signs as "30 minutes before school starts, 30 minutes after school ends, and during recess". It's very vague, no one knows when those times actually are, and it doesn't appear kids actually have to be in the area.
That said, it doesn't appear most NJ towns are very forceful of the school speed limits. If you're going 50 in a 40, when the school limit is 30 mph, and you get stopped, maybe the best you can hope for is a ticket for 10 over rather than 20 over since you were speeding anyway.
I suspect a fair number of states use something like that. Night is usually defined as one half hour after sunset to one half hour prior to sunrise for example.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: texaskdog on April 08, 2021, 01:16:02 AM
Post by: texaskdog on April 08, 2021, 01:16:02 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 07, 2021, 04:39:27 PMQuote from: jamess on April 07, 2021, 04:20:52 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 09:14:02 AMQuote from: jamess on April 06, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
"School Zone When Children Are Present" is dumb
Why?
Asking a driver to determine if an individual is or is not a child, and if their location counts or doesnt count as "present" is not good policy.
Especially where the regular speed limit is 45mph and the school speed limit is 25mph.
You make a good point.
Even worse is "on school days when children are present". Am I supposed to keep track of the school schedule now, too?
and when they don't turn them off for holidays or during the summer :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: I-55 on April 08, 2021, 08:45:44 AM
Post by: I-55 on April 08, 2021, 08:45:44 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on April 08, 2021, 01:16:02 AMQuote from: kphoger on April 07, 2021, 04:39:27 PMQuote from: jamess on April 07, 2021, 04:20:52 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 09:14:02 AMQuote from: jamess on April 06, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
"School Zone When Children Are Present" is dumb
Why?
Asking a driver to determine if an individual is or is not a child, and if their location counts or doesnt count as "present" is not good policy.
Especially where the regular speed limit is 45mph and the school speed limit is 25mph.
You make a good point.
Even worse is "on school days when children are present". Am I supposed to keep track of the school schedule now, too?
and when they don't turn them off for holidays or during the summer :P
And when there's a two hour delay and the lights don't adjust times. Infuriating during normal hours, great during two hour delay hours.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on April 08, 2021, 09:31:07 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on April 08, 2021, 09:31:07 AM
Quote from: I-55 on April 08, 2021, 08:45:44 AMQuote from: texaskdog on April 08, 2021, 01:16:02 AMQuote from: kphoger on April 07, 2021, 04:39:27 PMQuote from: jamess on April 07, 2021, 04:20:52 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 09:14:02 AMQuote from: jamess on April 06, 2021, 06:50:39 PM
"School Zone When Children Are Present" is dumb
Why?
Asking a driver to determine if an individual is or is not a child, and if their location counts or doesnt count as "present" is not good policy.
Especially where the regular speed limit is 45mph and the school speed limit is 25mph.
You make a good point.
Even worse is "on school days when children are present". Am I supposed to keep track of the school schedule now, too?
and when they don't turn them off for holidays or during the summer :P
And when there's a two hour delay and the lights don't adjust times. Infuriating during normal hours, great during two hour delay hours.
But its doubtful that police are enforcing it then anyway.
This seems to be a complaint more about someone's sense of order more than about a legit driving issue.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 08, 2021, 10:57:15 AM
Post by: kphoger on April 08, 2021, 10:57:15 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 07:51:27 PM
I think it pretty much means that this major street is a school zone when you see kids around. Honestly I have never seen such signs as problematic.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 08, 2021, 09:31:07 AM
But its doubtful that police are enforcing it then anyway.
Imagine that the speed limit is 40 mph, with "SCHOOL / 20 MPH / WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT".
There's a birthday party at the school playground, maybe school-sponsored, maybe not, you don't know.
Or there's a spelling bee, with kids and teachers and parents leaving the school at 7:45 pm.
Or track practice is over, and runners are leaving the locker room at 5:30 pm.
Or there's a citywide student event at the school on a Saturday morning.
Which of those cases count as "children are present" and which ones don't? Because, if a police officer clocks you going 49 mph, are you getting a 9mph speeding ticket that won't get reported to your insurance, or are you getting a 29mph speeding ticket that has you showing up at a courthouse?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on April 08, 2021, 12:07:10 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on April 08, 2021, 12:07:10 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 08, 2021, 10:57:15 AMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 07, 2021, 07:51:27 PM
I think it pretty much means that this major street is a school zone when you see kids around. Honestly I have never seen such signs as problematic.Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 08, 2021, 09:31:07 AM
But its doubtful that police are enforcing it then anyway.
Imagine that the speed limit is 40 mph, with "SCHOOL / 20 MPH / WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT".
There's a birthday party at the school playground, maybe school-sponsored, maybe not, you don't know.
Or there's a spelling bee, with kids and teachers and parents leaving the school at 7:45 pm.
Or track practice is over, and runners are leaving the locker room at 5:30 pm.
Or there's a citywide student event at the school on a Saturday morning.
Which of those cases count as "children are present" and which ones don't? Because, if a police officer clocks you going 49 mph, are you getting a 9mph speeding ticket that won't get reported to your insurance, or are you getting a 29mph speeding ticket that has you showing up at a courthouse?
First, is this really a problem?
Second, you examples show why flexibilities in the wording are important. School functions don't just happen Monday through Friday, 7:30 to 5:00.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 08, 2021, 12:24:41 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 08, 2021, 12:24:41 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 08, 2021, 12:07:10 PM
is this really a problem?
Very close to my parents' house is a very similar situation, except that the sign is "WHEN FLASHING" rather than "WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT". Often, the lights still flash even on days when school was canceled. On those days or after school hours, however, it's common to see children crossing the road to go between the school playground and a nearby park (https://goo.gl/maps/bnZ9wNpurnHrENQ9A). Sometimes they don't even use the crosswalk. Heck, I've crossed there with my own children a time or two outside of school hours.
I have to imagine there are places where a similar situation exists but the signs say "WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT" instead.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: GaryV on April 08, 2021, 12:41:56 PM
Post by: GaryV on April 08, 2021, 12:41:56 PM
There was a sign in my area for a school zone that remained up for some time after the school was closed, and even torn down. Fortunately it said "school days" so those of us in the know knew it was never a school day anymore.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on April 08, 2021, 01:14:06 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on April 08, 2021, 01:14:06 PM
There's an intersection in what I think is Quincy, MA (might be Braintree) where there's no turn on red from A AM to B AM and C PM to D PM, corresponding to school hours, except the PM time is earlier on Tuesdays. This corresponds to half days for elementary school, which from what I understand, has changed in COVID times. (A few towns make one day of the week a half day every week in exchange for making the other four days slightly longer.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on April 08, 2021, 02:00:00 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on April 08, 2021, 02:00:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 08, 2021, 12:24:41 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 08, 2021, 12:07:10 PM
is this really a problem?
Very close to my parents' house is a very similar situation, except that the sign is "WHEN FLASHING" rather than "WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT". Often, the lights still flash even on days when school was canceled. On those days or after school hours, however, it's common to see children crossing the road to go between the school playground and a nearby park (https://goo.gl/maps/bnZ9wNpurnHrENQ9A). Sometimes they don't even use the crosswalk. Heck, I've crossed there with my own children a time or two outside of school hours.
I have to imagine there are places where a similar situation exists but the signs say "WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT" instead.
I mean, these seem like occasional inconveniences and not really problems. And that's really my point.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 08, 2021, 02:05:58 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 08, 2021, 02:05:58 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 08, 2021, 02:00:00 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 08, 2021, 12:24:41 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 08, 2021, 12:07:10 PM
is this really a problem?
Very close to my parents' house is a very similar situation, except that the sign is "WHEN FLASHING" rather than "WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT". Often, the lights still flash even on days when school was canceled. On those days or after school hours, however, it's common to see children crossing the road to go between the school playground and a nearby park (https://goo.gl/maps/bnZ9wNpurnHrENQ9A). Sometimes they don't even use the crosswalk. Heck, I've crossed there with my own children a time or two outside of school hours.
I have to imagine there are places where a similar situation exists but the signs say "WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT" instead.
I mean, these seem like occasional inconveniences and not really problems. And that's really my point.
What are occasional inconveniences? The unexpected speeding tickets (Bel Aire loves speeding tickets)? Slowing down for no good reason just to avoid the theoretical possibility of speeding?
The original opinion was that they're "dumb". And I still agree. A speed limit should be cut and dry: go this speed or slower. Not: well, except in these certain vague circumstances which you may or may not be able to determine.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on April 08, 2021, 02:16:24 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on April 08, 2021, 02:16:24 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 08, 2021, 02:05:58 PM
Bel Aire
Not to veer the discussion completely off topic, but it seems that whoever came up with this name did not know French as well as they may have hoped. (It should be either Bel Air or Belle Aire.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 08, 2021, 02:21:56 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 08, 2021, 02:21:56 PM
– Women do know how to drive. They just don't know how to park.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on April 08, 2021, 02:55:07 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on April 08, 2021, 02:55:07 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 08, 2021, 02:05:58 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 08, 2021, 02:00:00 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 08, 2021, 12:24:41 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 08, 2021, 12:07:10 PM
is this really a problem?
Very close to my parents' house is a very similar situation, except that the sign is "WHEN FLASHING" rather than "WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT". Often, the lights still flash even on days when school was canceled. On those days or after school hours, however, it's common to see children crossing the road to go between the school playground and a nearby park (https://goo.gl/maps/bnZ9wNpurnHrENQ9A). Sometimes they don't even use the crosswalk. Heck, I've crossed there with my own children a time or two outside of school hours.
I have to imagine there are places where a similar situation exists but the signs say "WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT" instead.
I mean, these seem like occasional inconveniences and not really problems. And that's really my point.
What are occasional inconveniences? The unexpected speeding tickets (Bel Aire loves speeding tickets)? Slowing down for no good reason just to avoid the theoretical possibility of speeding?
The original opinion was that they're "dumb". And I still agree. A speed limit should be cut and dry: go this speed or slower. Not: well, except in these certain vague circumstances which you may or may not be able to determine.
The best speed limit is no speed limit
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 08, 2021, 09:28:34 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 08, 2021, 09:28:34 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 08, 2021, 02:55:07 PM
The best speed limit is no speed limit
Said every German ever.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on April 08, 2021, 09:45:40 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on April 08, 2021, 09:45:40 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on April 08, 2021, 09:28:34 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 08, 2021, 02:55:07 PM
The best speed limit is no speed limit
Said every German ever.
Well I am not German by any means, but they DID have the first "production" automobile.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on April 13, 2021, 09:34:55 PM
Post by: formulanone on April 13, 2021, 09:34:55 PM
Freeway Entrance signs are wasteful; I can think of only 1 or 2 occasions where it wasn't obvious where an on-ramp began. Between the shields, directional placards, arrows, medium-sized guide signs, lane markings, and the fact that there's typically a handful of basic interchange styles, it's usually just added clutter.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 09:56:01 PM
Post by: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 09:56:01 PM
Interstate and NHS routes that ban thru trucks should be removed from Interstate and NHS funding. They should be posted as "green" Interstate (Business), US, or State routes only. Examples - I-35E in St Paul, I-20 I-75 I-85 inside I-285 in Atlanta, I-580 in the Oakland area, etc.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 09:57:40 PM
Post by: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 09:57:40 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on April 08, 2021, 02:00:00 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 08, 2021, 12:24:41 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on April 08, 2021, 12:07:10 PM
is this really a problem?
Very close to my parents' house is a very similar situation, except that the sign is "WHEN FLASHING" rather than "WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT". Often, the lights still flash even on days when school was canceled. On those days or after school hours, however, it's common to see children crossing the road to go between the school playground and a nearby park (https://goo.gl/maps/bnZ9wNpurnHrENQ9A). Sometimes they don't even use the crosswalk. Heck, I've crossed there with my own children a time or two outside of school hours.
I have to imagine there are places where a similar situation exists but the signs say "WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT" instead.
I mean, these seem like occasional inconveniences and not really problems. And that's really my point.
Then you might be white or whatever demographic doesn't have to worry about police abuse.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 14, 2021, 07:05:05 AM
Post by: Ned Weasel on April 14, 2021, 07:05:05 AM
Here's one: Specific service logo signs (blue signs with logos) are really only useful if they are reinforced by tall, noticeable business signs visible from the interchange/junction in question. And on that note, tall business signs are good, actually, and they can even make a landscape more interesting. The problem with specific service signs where they're not so useful is, when you can't see the business from the interchange/junction, the blue signs aren't necessarily reliable for helping you find the business you're looking for. Sure, there's a sign on the ramp that tells you to turn left and go 0.2 miles to get to the Starbucks, but then what? If the MUTCD added a section for business wayfinding signs, then maybe I'd change my mind.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hbelkins on April 14, 2021, 01:51:46 PM
Post by: hbelkins on April 14, 2021, 01:51:46 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on April 14, 2021, 07:05:05 AM
Here's one: Specific service logo signs (blue signs with logos) are really only useful if they are reinforced by tall, noticeable business signs visible from the interchange/junction in question. And on that note, tall business signs are good, actually, and they can even make a landscape more interesting. The problem with specific service signs where they're not so useful is, when you can't see the business from the interchange/junction, the blue signs aren't necessarily reliable for helping you find the business you're looking for. Sure, there's a sign on the ramp that tells you to turn left and go 0.2 miles to get to the Starbucks, but then what? If the MUTCD added a section for business wayfinding signs, then maybe I'd change my mind.
Case in point: There's blue service signage for the Kroger gas station on the Mountain Parkway Exit 22 at Stanton. The signage dutifully directs you to turn left or right, depending on your direction of travel, onto KY 213 northbound. However, unless you're familiar with the area or using some sort of online navigation system, you don't know that to get to Kroger, you have to turn left from KY 213 (Main Street) onto KY 11/KY 15 (College Avenue) and then go about a half-mile to get to Kroger.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Dirt Roads on April 14, 2021, 02:52:35 PM
Post by: Dirt Roads on April 14, 2021, 02:52:35 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on April 14, 2021, 07:05:05 AM
Here's one: Specific service logo signs (blue signs with logos) are really only useful if they are reinforced by tall, noticeable business signs visible from the interchange/junction in question. And on that note, tall business signs are good, actually, and they can even make a landscape more interesting. The problem with specific service signs where they're not so useful is, when you can't see the business from the interchange/junction, the blue signs aren't necessarily reliable for helping you find the business you're looking for. Sure, there's a sign on the ramp that tells you to turn left and go 0.2 miles to get to the Starbucks, but then what? If the MUTCD added a section for business wayfinding signs, then maybe I'd change my mind.
Quote from: hbelkins on April 14, 2021, 01:51:46 PM
Case in point: There's blue service signage for the Kroger gas station on the Mountain Parkway Exit 22 at Stanton. The signage dutifully directs you to turn left or right, depending on your direction of travel, onto KY 213 northbound. However, unless you're familiar with the area or using some sort of online navigation system, you don't know that to get to Kroger, you have to turn left from KY 213 (Main Street) onto KY 11/KY 15 (College Avenue) and then go about a half-mile to get to Kroger.
Fortunately, for hideaways posted on the blue service signs, NCDOT consistently posts wayfinder signs from the exit all the way to nearest side road leading to the establishment. I've seen them in other states, but not very consistently. I don't know if NCDOT provides these additional wayfinder signs this at no additional cost, but I'm pretty sure that some state DOTs require the establishments to pay for them (which would explain why we still get lost finding stuff).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 14, 2021, 03:04:06 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 14, 2021, 03:04:06 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 09:56:01 PM
Interstate and NHS routes that ban thru trucks should be removed from Interstate and NHS funding. They should be posted as "green" Interstate (Business), US, or State routes only. Examples - I-35E in St Paul, I-20 I-75 I-85 inside I-285 in Atlanta, I-580 in the Oakland area, etc.
What about instead requiring the construction of a separate bypass route carrying Alternate Truck designation, like Pennsylvania does with some of their highways?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kernals12 on April 14, 2021, 04:30:02 PM
Post by: kernals12 on April 14, 2021, 04:30:02 PM
People more often than not support highway improvements, it's lack of funds that prevents improvements.
And I didn't this one was unpopular until recently on this site: noise pollution is bad and eliminating it is good
And I didn't this one was unpopular until recently on this site: noise pollution is bad and eliminating it is good
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 14, 2021, 04:33:42 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 14, 2021, 04:33:42 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on April 14, 2021, 04:30:02 PM
And I didn't this one was unpopular until recently on this site: noise pollution is bad and eliminating it is good
I think most people would agree that reducing traffic noise would be good but that eliminating it would create problems.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on April 14, 2021, 04:42:23 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 14, 2021, 04:42:23 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 14, 2021, 04:33:42 PMQuote from: kernals12 on April 14, 2021, 04:30:02 PM
And I didn't this one was unpopular until recently on this site: noise pollution is bad and eliminating it is good
I think most people would agree that reducing traffic noise would be good but that eliminating it would create problems.
Wasn't there an issue for a while with electric cars getting in accidents with pedestrians because they were so quiet the pedestrians didn't notice there was a car coming?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: 1995hoo on April 14, 2021, 04:51:14 PM
Post by: 1995hoo on April 14, 2021, 04:51:14 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 14, 2021, 04:42:23 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 14, 2021, 04:33:42 PMQuote from: kernals12 on April 14, 2021, 04:30:02 PM
And I didn't this one was unpopular until recently on this site: noise pollution is bad and eliminating it is good
I think most people would agree that reducing traffic noise would be good but that eliminating it would create problems.
Wasn't there an issue for a while with electric cars getting in accidents with pedestrians because they were so quiet the pedestrians didn't notice there was a car coming?
I mentioned that in another thread in which kernals12 had argued, among other things, that tires should be engineered to be quiet. In response, I made the comment below, although I probably should have considered that any viewpoints that could be seen as disagreeing with his would not be welcome there:
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 24, 2021, 12:07:54 PM
A non-trivial consideration–and I don't pretend to know what the ideal solution for this is–involves the issue that some level of vehicle noise may be desirable on roads that have pedestrian crossings or nearby sidewalks. Blind and visually-impaired people have raised the concern that electric vehicles, as well as hybrids running in purely electric mode, can often be too quiet for people who rely on hearing to know they're coming. Obviously the idea of having those vehicles emit a beeping sound, similar to a reversing truck, is not a good solution for a variety of reasons (not the least of them being the undesirability of using a sound that might be confused with one that has a well-established meaning), but as those sorts of vehicles become more common, figuring out a solution to that issue will be important.
Funny thing was, though, it was kalvado, rather than kernals12, who replied by trying to argue that engine noise is sufficient (a point that totally ignores the issue of electric cars or hybrids running at low speeds solely on the electric motor).
I don't pretend to know what the solution to that issue is, but it is a real issue. To some degree, it reminds me of the motorcycle-related slogan "Loud pipes save lives" (later borrowed by Vermont-based Celtic rock band Prydien as an album title). Some motorcyclists overdo the "loud pipes" thing, but as a general principle I'm sure it has some validity in terms of drawing attention to them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: LilianaUwU on April 14, 2021, 04:54:32 PM
Post by: LilianaUwU on April 14, 2021, 04:54:32 PM
I'm not too sure if that opinion is unpopular anymore... but when done well, Clearview is a good subsitute to the original FHWA font. Just look at Québec, which had a succesful transition from FHWA to Clearview.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 14, 2021, 05:10:08 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 14, 2021, 05:10:08 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on April 14, 2021, 04:54:32 PM
I'm not too sure if that opinion is unpopular anymore... but when done well, Clearview is a good subsitute to the original FHWA font. Just look at Québec, which had a succesful transition from FHWA to Clearview.
This is an unpopular opinion of mine, in that it's an unpopular reason given for why we should not switch to Clearview: FHWA Series has historical and cultural significance. It's been used for decades on American roads, and many countries around the world have put it into use in one form or another. It's very recognizable, classic, and some might even say it's the font of the USA. I know DOTs are more concerned with functionality than historical significance, but I do feel like Highway Gothic is more symbolic of America than it gets credit for.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Flint1979 on April 14, 2021, 06:08:54 PM
Post by: Flint1979 on April 14, 2021, 06:08:54 PM
I drive a Ford Fusion Hybrid and it's pretty quiet. When I was in Chicago over the weekend I damn near wiped out two pedestrians who were in the wrong. Situation was I was at the corner of Canal and Roosevelt waiting for the light to change, the green arrow turns on and I start to make my turn, in the middle of my turn I noticed these two people walking in the cross walk and had to brake and they jumped back out of the way. Like really? I had the right of way with the green arrow being activated, you tried to cross on a red light. And the traffic lights in Chicago are enough to drive you nuts as it is.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on April 14, 2021, 06:21:51 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 14, 2021, 06:21:51 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on April 14, 2021, 05:10:08 PMQuote from: LilianaUwU on April 14, 2021, 04:54:32 PM
I'm not too sure if that opinion is unpopular anymore... but when done well, Clearview is a good subsitute to the original FHWA font. Just look at Québec, which had a succesful transition from FHWA to Clearview.
This is an unpopular opinion of mine, in that it's an unpopular reason given for why we should not switch to Clearview: FHWA Series has historical and cultural significance. It's been used for decades on American roads, and many countries around the world have put it into use in one form or another. It's very recognizable, classic, and some might even say it's the font of the USA. I know DOTs are more concerned with functionality than historical significance, but I do feel like Highway Gothic is more symbolic of America than it gets credit for.
If I had to pick "the font of the USA", I'd pick the lettering style used on U.S. paper money (and other government documents) for the last century and a half.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hbelkins on April 14, 2021, 06:59:42 PM
Post by: hbelkins on April 14, 2021, 06:59:42 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on April 14, 2021, 03:04:06 PMQuote from: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 09:56:01 PM
Interstate and NHS routes that ban thru trucks should be removed from Interstate and NHS funding. They should be posted as "green" Interstate (Business), US, or State routes only. Examples - I-35E in St Paul, I-20 I-75 I-85 inside I-285 in Atlanta, I-580 in the Oakland area, etc.
What about instead requiring the construction of a separate bypass route carrying Alternate Truck designation, like Pennsylvania does with some of their highways?
My understanding is that Pennsylvania did that because of some weight limits on bridges.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kernals12 on April 14, 2021, 08:55:25 PM
Post by: kernals12 on April 14, 2021, 08:55:25 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 14, 2021, 04:33:42 PMQuote from: kernals12 on April 14, 2021, 04:30:02 PM
And I didn't this one was unpopular until recently on this site: noise pollution is bad and eliminating it is good
I think most people would agree that reducing traffic noise would be good but that eliminating it would create problems.
I would like it if freeways were considered things that enhance rather than degrade the communities they pass through. I'd like to be able to look at the scenery when I drive to work, instead of having it be obstructed by ugly soundwalls.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on April 14, 2021, 08:58:21 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on April 14, 2021, 08:58:21 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on April 14, 2021, 08:55:25 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 14, 2021, 04:33:42 PMQuote from: kernals12 on April 14, 2021, 04:30:02 PM
And I didn't this one was unpopular until recently on this site: noise pollution is bad and eliminating it is good
I think most people would agree that reducing traffic noise would be good but that eliminating it would create problems.
I would like it if freeways were considered things that enhance rather than degrade the communities they pass through. I'd like to be able to look at the scenery when I drive to work, instead of having it be obstructed by ugly soundwalls.
Good news: sound walls don't work the way people think they should (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=18634.msg2169677#msg2169677).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on April 14, 2021, 09:09:47 PM
Post by: webny99 on April 14, 2021, 09:09:47 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 14, 2021, 08:58:21 PMQuote from: kernals12 on April 14, 2021, 08:55:25 PM
I would like it if freeways were considered things that enhance rather than degrade the communities they pass through. I'd like to be able to look at the scenery when I drive to work, instead of having it be obstructed by ugly soundwalls.
Good news: sound walls don't work the way people think they should (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=18634.msg2169677#msg2169677).
When I saw that long post, I was hoping to see those graphs at the bottom that show how the sound just travels beyond the range of the wall, making it quieter right on the other side of the wall, but the same or even louder once you get further afield.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: skluth on April 15, 2021, 02:31:16 PM
Post by: skluth on April 15, 2021, 02:31:16 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 06, 2021, 08:24:27 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:54:59 PMQuote from: hbelkins on April 05, 2021, 04:48:38 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 05, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Roundabouts are difficult because its never clear if you have the right of way or not.
No, it's always clear. Vehicles in the circle have the right of way and drivers approaching the circle must yield.
Yeah but good luck deciding when a vehicle is going to be in the circle or not. Is the car coming going to exit or is it going to continue? In a world where people actually did what they were supposed to, used blinkers, etc. it would be fine, but in practice they are usually an accident waiting to happen.
I actually almost sorta agree with you here, to a point. My beef with roundabouts is that if they're busy, it may take awhile before you can enter the circle. Different people have different points at which they're comfortable pulling out into traffic. I tend to be more cautious and will wait to, for instance, turn left on a green ball/FYA, or turn right from a stop sign onto a through route. And different vehicles tend to accelerate faster than others. And if I don't pull into the roundabout fast enough to suit the guy behind me, who may have made a different safety judgment as to when it was OK to try to enter the circle, he gets frustrated or mad.
It's why I prefer a signal or even an all-way stop to a roundabout. You know you'll eventually get your turn to enter/pass through the intersection. I think that's why roundabouts are touted more as safety improvements than as traffic flow improvements.
Why is waiting at a stop sign any different than waiting to get into a roundabout? Both instances require you to yield to traffic. At least with a roundabout drivers only need to worry about traffic coming from one direction. Roundabouts do not mean that every road entering the roundabout is about the same level of use; it means that traffic engineers reasoned that traffic movement would best be facilitated by a roundabout, even if one road is substantially busier. A good example is this roundabout (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6351771,-90.5143516,261m/data=!3m1!1e3) I used to regularly use when I lived in St Louis where almost all the traffic stays on Woods Mill Road.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 15, 2021, 02:39:00 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 15, 2021, 02:39:00 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 06, 2021, 08:24:27 PM
It's why I prefer a signal or even an all-way stop to a roundabout. You know you'll eventually get your turn to enter/pass through the intersection. I think that's why roundabouts are touted more as safety improvements than as traffic flow improvements.
Have you ever encountered a roundabout that you're still waiting to enter/pass through?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 15, 2021, 09:10:14 PM
Post by: interstatefan990 on April 15, 2021, 09:10:14 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 06, 2021, 08:24:27 PM
It's why I prefer a signal or even an all-way stop to a roundabout. You know you'll eventually get your turn to enter/pass through the intersection. I think that's why roundabouts are touted more as safety improvements than as traffic flow improvements.
Have you ever had to wait for what feels like forever for a gap in traffic to make a left turn? You also don't know for sure if you'll eventually get your turn to enter the road.
Quote from: kphoger on April 15, 2021, 02:39:00 PMQuote from: hbelkins on April 06, 2021, 08:24:27 PM
It's why I prefer a signal or even an all-way stop to a roundabout. You know you'll eventually get your turn to enter/pass through the intersection. I think that's why roundabouts are touted more as safety improvements than as traffic flow improvements.
Have you ever encountered a roundabout that you're still waiting to enter/pass through?
The way you worded this makes it sound like hbelkins is still waiting at the roundabout and yielding to traffic, as we speak.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Dirt Roads on April 16, 2021, 08:30:19 AM
Post by: Dirt Roads on April 16, 2021, 08:30:19 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 06, 2021, 08:24:27 PM
It's why I prefer a signal or even an all-way stop to a roundabout. You know you'll eventually get your turn to enter/pass through the intersection. I think that's why roundabouts are touted more as safety improvements than as traffic flow improvements.
Quote from: kphoger on April 15, 2021, 02:39:00 PM
Have you ever encountered a roundabout that you're still waiting to enter/pass through?
There's one at the east edge of Duke Forest on NC-751 for Erwin Road. This one is nearly impossible to enter during the afternoon and evening rush when travelling southbound on NC-751. I still think of this traffic circle as "new", but it is probably 7 years old or so. NCDOT has been installing traffic circles in intersections where the majority of traffic turns off the "main road". In the past, NCDOT would reconfigure these intersections so as to align a "main road" as a through route for the majority of traffic.
Historically, Erwin Road was the "main road" from the northwestern part of Chapel Hill to the Duke Hospital district. When the Western Boulevard bypass was completed way back in the late 1950s, it passed straight through the intersection of NC-751 and Erwin Road. Erwin got chopped into two pieces, with intersections east and west of the new bypass. [US-15/US-501 didn't get signed on the bypass until 1960]. While the traffic volumes favor the US-15/US-501 Bypass, the "main road" is still Erwin Road and traffic from Chapel Hill still makes the zig-zag and stays on Erwin Road going up to Duke Hospital and Ninth Street. I still don't quite understand it, but there are a lot of folks in Durham and Chapel Hill that prefer to use the old two lane routes (and many of them are not elderly).
Anyhow, NCDOT anticipated this on the southeast leg of the traffic circle with a slip lane from Erwin northbound to NC-751 southbound. But although the opposite move was constructed offset as a traffic calming technique, the continuous nature of Erwin Road southbound traffic leaves few opportunities for folks trying to enter from Duke Forest. Locals know this is an issue, an avoid NC-751 southbound altogether during rush hour.
Which brings us back to an unpopular opinion. In England, I was taught that traffic circles should be treated as traditional intersections. When attempting to make a "left" turn at the intersection, traffic should use their "left" turn "blinker" before entering the traffic circle and leave the left turn "blinker" on during the trip through the traffic circle. Even if the circle is big enough to force traffic to veer "right" into the circle. And it was recommend that straight through traffic use their "right" turn "blinker" prior to exiting the traffic circle (some folks said all traffic should use the "blinker"). This allows oncoming traffic an opportunity to know when there will be a slot in "left" turn traffic to allow oncoming vehicles to jump into the circle. [Lefts and rights reversed to make sense here in the United States. Usually requires brackets, but that is a bulletin board command :banghead:].
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 10:56:49 AM
Post by: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 10:56:49 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on April 15, 2021, 09:10:14 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 15, 2021, 02:39:00 PMQuote from: hbelkins on April 06, 2021, 08:24:27 PM
It's why I prefer a signal or even an all-way stop to a roundabout. You know you'll eventually get your turn to enter/pass through the intersection. I think that's why roundabouts are touted more as safety improvements than as traffic flow improvements.
Have you ever encountered a roundabout that you're still waiting to enter/pass through?
The way you worded this makes it sound like hbelkins is still waiting at the roundabout and yielding to traffic, as we speak.
I'm glad you understood my wording.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: 1995hoo on April 16, 2021, 12:12:47 PM
Post by: 1995hoo on April 16, 2021, 12:12:47 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 16, 2021, 08:30:19 AM
....
Historically, Erwin Road was the "main road" from the northwestern part of Chapel Hill to the Duke Hospital district. When the Western Boulevard bypass was completed way back in the late 1950s, it passed straight through the intersection of NC-751 and Erwin Road. Erwin got chopped into two pieces, with intersections east and west of the new bypass. [US-15/US-501 didn't get signed on the bypass until 1960]. While the traffic volumes favor the US-15/US-501 Bypass, the "main road" is still Erwin Road and traffic from Chapel Hill still makes the zig-zag and stays on Erwin Road going up to Duke Hospital and Ninth Street. I still don't quite understand it, but there are a lot of folks in Durham and Chapel Hill that prefer to use the old two lane routes (and many of them are not elderly).
....
I used to like to go that way, partly for a change of pace and partly because it used to take forever to get through the light at Garrett Road if you took 15/501. I lived on Erwin Road at the now-demolished Central Campus.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Tom958 on April 18, 2021, 07:15:23 AM
Post by: Tom958 on April 18, 2021, 07:15:23 AM
Quote from: Big John on April 05, 2021, 06:49:08 PM
Big Ben....Parliament
The roundabout scene in European Vacation should be banned, or at least voluntarily withdrawn. By feeding fear of and ignorance about multilane roundabouts, it's probably caused property damage, injuries, and even deaths.
Whether or not that happens, driving a multilane roundabout in the way depicted in that scene, i.e, ignoring the pavement markings, should be called Griswalding.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:57:08 PM
Post by: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:57:08 PM
"Airport" should not be a control city. That's what supplementary signage and the 🛪 symbol are for:
(https://imgur.com/B0jG7Do.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/B0jG7Do.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:59:29 PM
Post by: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:59:29 PM
All signalized intersections should be required to have enough shoulder space for the second car in line to make a right on red.
There's nothing worse than turning right and being stuck behind one car going straight.
There's nothing worse than turning right and being stuck behind one car going straight.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on April 29, 2021, 02:03:10 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on April 29, 2021, 02:03:10 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:59:29 PM
All signalized intersections should be required to have enough shoulder space for the second car in line to make a right on red.
There's nothing worse than turning right and being stuck behind one car going straight.
That could cause issues when a state or municipality decides not to install a badly needed signal solely because it would take up expensive ROW.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jmacswimmer on April 29, 2021, 02:04:20 PM
Post by: jmacswimmer on April 29, 2021, 02:04:20 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:57:08 PM
"Airport" should not be a control city. That's what supplementary signage and the 🛪 symbol are for:
(https://imgur.com/B0jG7Do.jpg)
You'd love (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3066912,-76.7763561,3a,75y,101.67h,88.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sonr51Qelly8YwGEmdRmXJQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)how MDOT (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2581153,-76.6991816,3a,75y,128.82h,87.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCmtC_GzaAIdeT8ZFLpBRiw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) handles BWI (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.239145,-76.7043658,3a,75y,246.73h,90.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh3_5ptKkoUZ89BgiqmKHmg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en), then! (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2003393,-76.6947959,3a,75y,147.97h,84.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMjIntcOrGmu4XUyyhEmVJw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Angelo71 on April 29, 2021, 02:11:31 PM
Post by: Angelo71 on April 29, 2021, 02:11:31 PM
I-71 should be rerouted from Erie to Chesapeake or Siesta Key, FL
I-79 should be rerouted.
There should be A Virginia Turnpike
I-97 should be I-x95
I-19 should follow Delmarva's Coast, and end at I-64 in Hampton Roads
I-22 should be in Virginia
I-70 should be extended to both coasts.
I-76 should somehow go to Boston and NY, without follow I-95
I-73 should be rerouted in Virginia.
I-9,I-7,I-17,I-16,I-88,I-89,I-72,I-74,I-75,I-78,I-91,I-97,I-99 should be created in Virginia.
DE-1 should follow DE-7 until the PA Border
US-50, US-40 Should be rerouted to the west coast.
I-79 should be rerouted.
There should be A Virginia Turnpike
I-97 should be I-x95
I-19 should follow Delmarva's Coast, and end at I-64 in Hampton Roads
I-22 should be in Virginia
I-70 should be extended to both coasts.
I-76 should somehow go to Boston and NY, without follow I-95
I-73 should be rerouted in Virginia.
I-9,I-7,I-17,I-16,I-88,I-89,I-72,I-74,I-75,I-78,I-91,I-97,I-99 should be created in Virginia.
DE-1 should follow DE-7 until the PA Border
US-50, US-40 Should be rerouted to the west coast.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on April 29, 2021, 02:45:10 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on April 29, 2021, 02:45:10 PM
I can't think of a single Interstate that I would rank in my personal top 50 scenic highways. And yes, that includes the heavy hitters like the Virgin River Gorge and San Raffael Swell.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: US 89 on April 29, 2021, 02:45:39 PM
Post by: US 89 on April 29, 2021, 02:45:39 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:59:29 PM
All signalized intersections should be required to have enough shoulder space for the second car in line to make a right on red.
There's nothing worse than turning right and being stuck behind one car going straight.
Nah, there's nothing worse than going straight and being stuck behind one car attempting to turn left, using up the entire green light waiting for oncoming traffic to clear.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 02:47:57 PM
Post by: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 02:47:57 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 29, 2021, 02:03:10 PMQuote from: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:59:29 PM
All signalized intersections should be required to have enough shoulder space for the second car in line to make a right on red.
There's nothing worse than turning right and being stuck behind one car going straight.
That could cause issues when a state or municipality decides not to install a badly needed signal solely because it would take up expensive ROW.
That's a fair point, but usually new signals are installed in fast growing and/or exurban areas where ROW isn't as much of a concern.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 02:50:39 PM
Post by: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 02:50:39 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on April 29, 2021, 02:04:20 PMQuote from: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:57:08 PM
"Airport" should not be a control city. That's what supplementary signage and the 🛪 symbol are for:
(https://imgur.com/B0jG7Do.jpg)
You'd love (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3066912,-76.7763561,3a,75y,101.67h,88.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sonr51Qelly8YwGEmdRmXJQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)how MDOT (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2581153,-76.6991816,3a,75y,128.82h,87.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCmtC_GzaAIdeT8ZFLpBRiw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) handles BWI (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.239145,-76.7043658,3a,75y,246.73h,90.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh3_5ptKkoUZ89BgiqmKHmg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en), then! (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2003393,-76.6947959,3a,75y,147.97h,84.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMjIntcOrGmu4XUyyhEmVJw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
I don't like the square corners of Maryland's signage, but I like almost everything else about it. That would include the airport signage, although I do question whether "Thurgood Marshall" is really necessary to include on the signage.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 02:52:17 PM
Post by: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 02:52:17 PM
Quote from: US 89 on April 29, 2021, 02:45:39 PMQuote from: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:59:29 PM
All signalized intersections should be required to have enough shoulder space for the second car in line to make a right on red.
There's nothing worse than turning right and being stuck behind one car going straight.
Nah, there's nothing worse than going straight and being stuck behind one car attempting to turn left, using up the entire green light waiting for oncoming traffic to clear.
That's usually not as much of a concern, because as long as the left-turning car pulls forward, you can still get around them.
But even then, doesn't my solution solve your problem as well?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jmacswimmer on April 29, 2021, 05:24:59 PM
Post by: jmacswimmer on April 29, 2021, 05:24:59 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 02:50:39 PMQuote from: jmacswimmer on April 29, 2021, 02:04:20 PMQuote from: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:57:08 PM
"Airport" should not be a control city. That's what supplementary signage and the 🛪 symbol are for:
(https://imgur.com/B0jG7Do.jpg)
You'd love (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3066912,-76.7763561,3a,75y,101.67h,88.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sonr51Qelly8YwGEmdRmXJQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)how MDOT (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2581153,-76.6991816,3a,75y,128.82h,87.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCmtC_GzaAIdeT8ZFLpBRiw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) handles BWI (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.239145,-76.7043658,3a,75y,246.73h,90.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh3_5ptKkoUZ89BgiqmKHmg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en), then! (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2003393,-76.6947959,3a,75y,147.97h,84.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMjIntcOrGmu4XUyyhEmVJw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
I don't like the square corners of Maryland's signage, but I like almost everything else about it. That would include the airport signage, although I do question whether "Thurgood Marshall" is really necessary to include on the signage.
Well, as you can tell, MDOT went to great lengths to update all the BWI signage as soon as Thurgood Marshall's name was attached to the airport in 2005 :-D But I agree, the replaced signage that simply read "BWI Airport" was more than adequate (I still refer to it as simply BWI, but a lot of people do say "BWI Marshall" these days).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on April 29, 2021, 05:58:50 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on April 29, 2021, 05:58:50 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on April 29, 2021, 05:24:59 PMI think if an airport would be used as a control city, my preferred format would be '[IATA code] Airport'. Like "CVG Airport" for Cincinnati, "IND Airport" for Indianapolis (current signage for that one is "Indpls Int'l Airport"), etc.Quote from: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 02:50:39 PMQuote from: jmacswimmer on April 29, 2021, 02:04:20 PMQuote from: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:57:08 PM
"Airport" should not be a control city. That's what supplementary signage and the 🛪 symbol are for:
(https://imgur.com/B0jG7Do.jpg)
You'd love (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3066912,-76.7763561,3a,75y,101.67h,88.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sonr51Qelly8YwGEmdRmXJQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)how MDOT (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2581153,-76.6991816,3a,75y,128.82h,87.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCmtC_GzaAIdeT8ZFLpBRiw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) handles BWI (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.239145,-76.7043658,3a,75y,246.73h,90.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh3_5ptKkoUZ89BgiqmKHmg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en), then! (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2003393,-76.6947959,3a,75y,147.97h,84.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMjIntcOrGmu4XUyyhEmVJw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
I don't like the square corners of Maryland's signage, but I like almost everything else about it. That would include the airport signage, although I do question whether "Thurgood Marshall" is really necessary to include on the signage.
Well, as you can tell, MDOT went to great lengths to update all the BWI signage as soon as Thurgood Marshall's name was attached to the airport in 2005 :-D But I agree, the replaced signage that simply read "BWI Airport" was more than adequate (I still refer to it as simply BWI, but a lot of people do say "BWI Marshall" these days).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 29, 2021, 06:07:29 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 29, 2021, 06:07:29 PM
Quote from: Angelo71 on April 29, 2021, 02:11:31 PMHow will I-22 get to Virginia?
I-71 should be rerouted from Erie to Chesapeake or Siesta Key, FL
I-79 should be rerouted.
There should be A Virginia Turnpike
I-97 should be I-x95
I-19 should follow Delmarva's Coast, and end at I-64 in Hampton Roads
I-22 should be in Virginia
I-70 should be extended to both coasts.
I-76 should somehow go to Boston and NY, without follow I-95
I-73 should be rerouted in Virginia.
I-9,I-7,I-17,I-16,I-88,I-89,I-72,I-74,I-75,I-78,I-91,I-97,I-99 should be created in Virginia.
DE-1 should follow DE-7 until the PA Border
US-50, US-40 Should be rerouted to the west coast.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Angelo71 on April 29, 2021, 06:12:52 PM
Post by: Angelo71 on April 29, 2021, 06:12:52 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 29, 2021, 06:07:29 PMI mean they are all rerouted.Quote from: Angelo71 on April 29, 2021, 02:11:31 PMHow will I-22 get to Virginia?
I-71 should be rerouted from Erie to Chesapeake or Siesta Key, FL
I-79 should be rerouted.
There should be A Virginia Turnpike
I-97 should be I-x95
I-19 should follow Delmarva's Coast, and end at I-64 in Hampton Roads
I-22 should be in Virginia
I-70 should be extended to both coasts.
I-76 should somehow go to Boston and NY, without follow I-95
I-73 should be rerouted in Virginia.
I-9,I-7,I-17,I-16,I-88,I-89,I-72,I-74,I-75,I-78,I-91,I-97,I-99 should be created in Virginia.
DE-1 should follow DE-7 until the PA Border
US-50, US-40 Should be rerouted to the west coast.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 29, 2021, 06:13:28 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 29, 2021, 06:13:28 PM
Quote from: Angelo71 on April 29, 2021, 06:12:52 PMHuh?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 29, 2021, 06:07:29 PMI mean they are all rerouted.Quote from: Angelo71 on April 29, 2021, 02:11:31 PMHow will I-22 get to Virginia?
I-71 should be rerouted from Erie to Chesapeake or Siesta Key, FL
I-79 should be rerouted.
There should be A Virginia Turnpike
I-97 should be I-x95
I-19 should follow Delmarva's Coast, and end at I-64 in Hampton Roads
I-22 should be in Virginia
I-70 should be extended to both coasts.
I-76 should somehow go to Boston and NY, without follow I-95
I-73 should be rerouted in Virginia.
I-9,I-7,I-17,I-16,I-88,I-89,I-72,I-74,I-75,I-78,I-91,I-97,I-99 should be created in Virginia.
DE-1 should follow DE-7 until the PA Border
US-50, US-40 Should be rerouted to the west coast.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on April 29, 2021, 06:14:03 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on April 29, 2021, 06:14:03 PM
Quote from: Angelo71 on April 29, 2021, 06:12:52 PMThere's a reason why state routes exist. You can have all of your favorite numbers in Virginia with state routes.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 29, 2021, 06:07:29 PMI mean they are all rerouted.Quote from: Angelo71 on April 29, 2021, 02:11:31 PMHow will I-22 get to Virginia?
I-71 should be rerouted from Erie to Chesapeake or Siesta Key, FL
I-79 should be rerouted.
There should be A Virginia Turnpike
I-97 should be I-x95
I-19 should follow Delmarva's Coast, and end at I-64 in Hampton Roads
I-22 should be in Virginia
I-70 should be extended to both coasts.
I-76 should somehow go to Boston and NY, without follow I-95
I-73 should be rerouted in Virginia.
I-9,I-7,I-17,I-16,I-88,I-89,I-72,I-74,I-75,I-78,I-91,I-97,I-99 should be created in Virginia.
DE-1 should follow DE-7 until the PA Border
US-50, US-40 Should be rerouted to the west coast.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jmacswimmer on April 29, 2021, 06:14:35 PM
Post by: jmacswimmer on April 29, 2021, 06:14:35 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 29, 2021, 05:58:50 PMQuote from: jmacswimmer on April 29, 2021, 05:24:59 PMI think if an airport would be used as a control city, my preferred format would be '[IATA code] Airport'. Like "CVG Airport" for Cincinnati, "IND Airport" for Indianapolis (current signage for that one is "Indpls Int'l Airport"), etc.Quote from: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 02:50:39 PMQuote from: jmacswimmer on April 29, 2021, 02:04:20 PMQuote from: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:57:08 PM
"Airport" should not be a control city. That's what supplementary signage and the 🛪 symbol are for:
(https://imgur.com/B0jG7Do.jpg)
You'd love (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3066912,-76.7763561,3a,75y,101.67h,88.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sonr51Qelly8YwGEmdRmXJQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)how MDOT (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2581153,-76.6991816,3a,75y,128.82h,87.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCmtC_GzaAIdeT8ZFLpBRiw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) handles BWI (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.239145,-76.7043658,3a,75y,246.73h,90.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh3_5ptKkoUZ89BgiqmKHmg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en), then! (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2003393,-76.6947959,3a,75y,147.97h,84.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMjIntcOrGmu4XUyyhEmVJw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
I don't like the square corners of Maryland's signage, but I like almost everything else about it. That would include the airport signage, although I do question whether "Thurgood Marshall" is really necessary to include on the signage.
Well, as you can tell, MDOT went to great lengths to update all the BWI signage as soon as Thurgood Marshall's name was attached to the airport in 2005 :-D But I agree, the replaced signage that simply read "BWI Airport" was more than adequate (I still refer to it as simply BWI, but a lot of people do say "BWI Marshall" these days).
NCDOT did exactly this with sign replacements on I-85 around CLT (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2529614,-80.9793451,3a,75y,120.59h,84.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_4vtDD49MTJhxWXV9-wzYw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) (compare to the old signage from several years back on streetview).
I generally agree with your proposed IATA code approach, except maybe in instances where the airport has a short, well-known name easily recognized by locals (such as Logan, Dulles, O'Hare, Midway, etc...)
DEN might have to be an exception too since more people refer to it as DIA than by its code.
Happy for some airport signage discussion! I find myself especially interested in instances such as this of different modes of transportation intersecting (no pun intended).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 29, 2021, 06:29:22 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 29, 2021, 06:29:22 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:57:08 PM
"Airport" should not be a control city. That's what supplementary signage and the 🛪 symbol are for:
(https://imgur.com/B0jG7Do.jpg)
Is this (https://goo.gl/maps/3whSoEHJtxow5ZYu7) OK?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on April 29, 2021, 06:32:03 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 29, 2021, 06:32:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 29, 2021, 06:29:22 PMQuote from: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:57:08 PM
"Airport" should not be a control city. That's what supplementary signage and the 🛪 symbol are for:
(https://imgur.com/B0jG7Do.jpg)
Is this (https://goo.gl/maps/3whSoEHJtxow5ZYu7) OK?
No, that's clearly IL.
*ducks*
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on April 29, 2021, 06:36:37 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on April 29, 2021, 06:36:37 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on April 29, 2021, 06:14:35 PMAnother exception like DEN would be Greensboro. GSO is its airport code, but I think more people in the area call the airport PTI. Though I-73 includes both abbreviations in the airport control. Kansas City signs KCI instead of MCI, which is fine, as MCI came from its former name of "Mid-Continental International".Quote from: SkyPesos on April 29, 2021, 05:58:50 PM
I think if an airport would be used as a control city, my preferred format would be '[IATA code] Airport'. Like "CVG Airport" for Cincinnati, "IND Airport" for Indianapolis (current signage for that one is "Indpls Int'l Airport"), etc.
NCDOT did exactly this with sign replacements on I-85 around CLT (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2529614,-80.9793451,3a,75y,120.59h,84.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_4vtDD49MTJhxWXV9-wzYw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) (compare to the old signage from several years back on streetview).
I generally agree with your proposed IATA code approach, except maybe in instances where the airport has a short, well-known name easily recognized by locals (such as Logan, Dulles, O'Hare, Midway, etc...)
DEN might have to be an exception too since more people refer to it as DIA than by its code.
Happy for some airport signage discussion! I find myself especially interested in instances such as this of different modes of transportation intersecting (no pun intended).
For Houston, do more locals call IAH by its airport code, "Bush Airport" or "Intercontinental Airport"?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on April 29, 2021, 06:43:56 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 29, 2021, 06:43:56 PM
MCI is the KC airport code because it was originally called "Mid-Continent International" (after Mid-Continent Airlines, which later merged with Braniff), but when it was expanded to Kansas City's main airport it became "Kansas City International". Most people just call it KCI. Kansas City has tried to get the KCI code assigned to it, but IATA won't go for it because they have a policy of not changing codes once they're printed on maps.
Interestingly, Wichita also had a "Mid-Continent Airport" until recently, when it became Wichita Eisenhower. Its code is ICT. I wonder how often confusion between the Wichita and Kansas City airports has happened.
Interestingly, Wichita also had a "Mid-Continent Airport" until recently, when it became Wichita Eisenhower. Its code is ICT. I wonder how often confusion between the Wichita and Kansas City airports has happened.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on April 29, 2021, 07:02:05 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on April 29, 2021, 07:02:05 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 29, 2021, 06:43:56 PM
Kansas City has tried to get the KCI code assigned to it, but IATA won't go for it because they have a policy of not changing codes once they're printed on maps.
US airport codes can't begin with K or W because of confusion with radio stations, nor can they begin with N.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 07:04:43 PM
Post by: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 07:04:43 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 29, 2021, 06:29:22 PMQuote from: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:57:08 PM
"Airport" should not be a control city. That's what supplementary signage and the 🛪 symbol are for:
(https://imgur.com/B0jG7Do.jpg)
Is this (https://goo.gl/maps/3whSoEHJtxow5ZYu7) OK?
Sure. Considering that I-190 literally exists to connect the rest of the freeway network to the airport, that's more of a local exit destination than a true control city.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on April 29, 2021, 07:08:47 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 29, 2021, 07:08:47 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 29, 2021, 07:02:05 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 29, 2021, 06:43:56 PM
Kansas City has tried to get the KCI code assigned to it, but IATA won't go for it because they have a policy of not changing codes once they're printed on maps.
US airport codes can't begin with K or W because of confusion with radio stations, nor can they begin with N.
This is no longer the case.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jmacswimmer on April 29, 2021, 07:30:29 PM
Post by: jmacswimmer on April 29, 2021, 07:30:29 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 29, 2021, 06:43:56 PM
Kansas City has tried to get the KCI code assigned to it, but IATA won't go for it because they have a policy of not changing codes once they're printed on maps.
Interesting....I'm sure it is indeed discouraged, but just to be devil's advocate I can think of at least 2 instances of IATA codes changing:
-Idlewild (IDL) becoming John F. Kennedy (JFK)
-Friendship (BAL) becoming Baltimore/Washington (BWI)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ran4sh on April 29, 2021, 08:13:14 PM
Post by: ran4sh on April 29, 2021, 08:13:14 PM
Also Sioux City tried to change their airport's code because it is "SUX", but when the FAA gave them a few options for what they could change the code to, they decided not to change the code.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JoePCool14 on April 29, 2021, 08:31:03 PM
Post by: JoePCool14 on April 29, 2021, 08:31:03 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 29, 2021, 06:32:03 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 29, 2021, 06:29:22 PMQuote from: webny99 on April 29, 2021, 01:57:08 PM
"Airport" should not be a control city. That's what supplementary signage and the 🛪 symbol are for:
(https://imgur.com/B0jG7Do.jpg)
Is this (https://goo.gl/maps/3whSoEHJtxow5ZYu7) OK?
No, that's clearly IL.
*ducks*
Not only is it IL, it's Ill!
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 29, 2021, 08:53:30 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 29, 2021, 08:53:30 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 29, 2021, 06:43:56 PM
MCI is the KC airport code because it was originally called "Mid-Continent International" (after Mid-Continent Airlines, which later merged with Braniff), but when it was expanded to Kansas City's main airport it became "Kansas City International". Most people just call it KCI. Kansas City has tried to get the KCI code assigned to it, but IATA won't go for it because they have a policy of not changing codes once they're printed on maps.
Interestingly, Wichita also had a "Mid-Continent Airport" until recently, when it became Wichita Eisenhower. Its code is ICT. I wonder how often confusion between the Wichita and Kansas City airports has happened.
Yeah, I thought for years after moving here that I was wrong about either (a) Kansas City's airport being Mid-Continent or (b) Wichita's airport being Mid-Continent. Just about the time I finally realized both were correct, Wichita changed its airport's name.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on April 30, 2021, 05:58:12 AM
Post by: formulanone on April 30, 2021, 05:58:12 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 29, 2021, 06:36:37 PMQuote from: jmacswimmer on April 29, 2021, 06:14:35 PMAnother exception like DEN would be Greensboro. GSO is its airport code, but I think more people in the area call the airport PTI. Though I-73 includes both abbreviations in the airport control. Kansas City signs KCI instead of MCI, which is fine, as MCI came from its former name of "Mid-Continental International".Quote from: SkyPesos on April 29, 2021, 05:58:50 PM
I think if an airport would be used as a control city, my preferred format would be '[IATA code] Airport'. Like "CVG Airport" for Cincinnati, "IND Airport" for Indianapolis (current signage for that one is "Indpls Int'l Airport"), etc.
NCDOT did exactly this with sign replacements on I-85 around CLT (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2529614,-80.9793451,3a,75y,120.59h,84.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_4vtDD49MTJhxWXV9-wzYw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) (compare to the old signage from several years back on streetview).
I generally agree with your proposed IATA code approach, except maybe in instances where the airport has a short, well-known name easily recognized by locals (such as Logan, Dulles, O'Hare, Midway, etc...)
DEN might have to be an exception too since more people refer to it as DIA than by its code.
Happy for some airport signage discussion! I find myself especially interested in instances such as this of different modes of transportation intersecting (no pun intended).
For Houston, do more locals call IAH by its airport code, "Bush Airport" or "Intercontinental Airport"?
Usually, I get the question "Did you fly to/out-of Hobby or Bush?" if travelling around the Houston metro (or flung out to somewhere like Victoria).
I think IAH just sounds too technical or forgettable to the layman, or the uncontrollable sound one makes before a yawn/sneeze.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: renegade on April 30, 2021, 03:49:26 PM
Post by: renegade on April 30, 2021, 03:49:26 PM
Might want to point out that the average person does not know what an airport's IATA code is.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 04:04:44 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 04:04:44 PM
Quote from: renegade on April 30, 2021, 03:49:26 PM
Might want to point out that the average person does not know what an airport's IATA code is.
It kind of depends on the airport. Have you ever heard anyone say the words "Los Angeles International"? Also, the code for Will Rogers World Airport is blindingly obvious.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on April 30, 2021, 04:16:13 PM
Post by: webny99 on April 30, 2021, 04:16:13 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 04:04:44 PMQuote from: renegade on April 30, 2021, 03:49:26 PM
Might want to point out that the average person does not know what an airport's IATA code is.
It kind of depends on the airport. Have you ever heard anyone say the words "Los Angeles International"? Also, the code for Will Rogers World Airport is blindingly obvious.
Yeah, LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA... most the West Coast codes, at least, are very common.
And a lot of the Upstate NY ones are so easy that it's basically impossible not to know them: BUF, ROC, SYR... I mean, come on.
Most people probably couldn't tell you offhand that the codes are IATA codes or what IATA stands for, but I bet they still know that airports have three-letter codes and could list at least a few of them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on April 30, 2021, 04:20:06 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on April 30, 2021, 04:20:06 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2021, 04:16:13 PM
three-digit codes
737 and 747 are not airport codes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on April 30, 2021, 04:28:03 PM
Post by: webny99 on April 30, 2021, 04:28:03 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 30, 2021, 04:20:06 PMQuote from: webny99 on April 30, 2021, 04:16:13 PM
three-digit codes
737 and 747 are not airport codes.
I meant three-letter codes, fixed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on April 30, 2021, 05:18:30 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on April 30, 2021, 05:18:30 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 04:04:44 PMQuote from: renegade on April 30, 2021, 03:49:26 PM
Might want to point out that the average person does not know what an airport's IATA code is.
It kind of depends on the airport. Have you ever heard anyone say the words "Los Angeles International"? Also, the code for Will Rogers World Airport is blindingly obvious.
WRW? WIL? ROG? Looks on Wikipedia: OKC.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 05:25:59 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 05:25:59 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on April 30, 2021, 05:18:30 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 04:04:44 PMQuote from: renegade on April 30, 2021, 03:49:26 PM
Might want to point out that the average person does not know what an airport's IATA code is.
It kind of depends on the airport. Have you ever heard anyone say the words "Los Angeles International"? Also, the code for Will Rogers World Airport is blindingly obvious.
WRW? WIL? ROG? Looks on Wikipedia: OKC.
And the city it's located in?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: US 89 on April 30, 2021, 05:29:43 PM
Post by: US 89 on April 30, 2021, 05:29:43 PM
Quote from: renegade on April 30, 2021, 03:49:26 PM
Might want to point out that the average person does not know what an airport's IATA code is.
Ehh... they may not know the code for *insert random airport here*, or what IATA means, but almost certainly they’ll know what it is for their home airport and any others they regularly fly to given it shows up on luggage tags and it’s the easiest way to check flight status and book flights.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: 1995hoo on April 30, 2021, 05:57:06 PM
Post by: 1995hoo on April 30, 2021, 05:57:06 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 29, 2021, 05:58:50 PM
I think if an airport would be used as a control city, my preferred format would be '[IATA code] Airport'. Like "CVG Airport" for Cincinnati, "IND Airport" for Indianapolis (current signage for that one is "Indpls Int'l Airport"), etc.
I highly doubt the average member of the American public knows the airport codes except for a few that are either obvious (JFK) or ubiquitous locally (RDU or ATL)–and even as to JFK, the BGSs generally said "Kennedy Airport" until relatively recently.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Bruce on April 30, 2021, 06:03:07 PM
Post by: Bruce on April 30, 2021, 06:03:07 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2021, 04:16:13 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 04:04:44 PMQuote from: renegade on April 30, 2021, 03:49:26 PM
Might want to point out that the average person does not know what an airport's IATA code is.
It kind of depends on the airport. Have you ever heard anyone say the words "Los Angeles International"? Also, the code for Will Rogers World Airport is blindingly obvious.
Yeah, LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA... most the West Coast codes, at least, are very common.
SEA isn't widely used because it's easy to confuse with other terms using SEA as an abbreviation (or...the sea). Sea-Tac is already short enough.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 06:26:49 PM
Post by: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 06:26:49 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 30, 2021, 04:16:13 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 04:04:44 PMQuote from: renegade on April 30, 2021, 03:49:26 PM
Might want to point out that the average person does not know what an airport's IATA code is.
It kind of depends on the airport. Have you ever heard anyone say the words "Los Angeles International"? Also, the code for Will Rogers World Airport is blindingly obvious.
Yeah, LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA... most the West Coast codes, at least, are very common.
And a lot of the Upstate NY ones are so easy that it's basically impossible not to know them: BUF, ROC, SYR... I mean, come on.
Most people probably couldn't tell you offhand that the codes are IATA codes or what IATA stands for, but I bet they still know that airports have three-letter codes and could list at least a few of them.
I always thought SNA and SAN should perhaps be revised to avoid confusion.
SAN *could* be San Antonio, San Jose, hell even San Francisco. Maybe SDO would be a better fit or SDX?
SNA could be JWA. I've heard it referred to way more often as Orange County or John Wayne Airport. Hell, Disneyland Field! A lot of DL bound tourists go through that airport.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Dirt Roads on April 30, 2021, 06:57:21 PM
Post by: Dirt Roads on April 30, 2021, 06:57:21 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 06:26:49 PM
I always thought SNA and SAN should perhaps be revised to avoid confusion.
That was a huge problem for Dulles when it was DIA and National was DCA. They switched over to IAD in 1968 to resolve the confusion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 07:01:40 PM
Post by: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 07:01:40 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 30, 2021, 06:57:21 PMQuote from: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 06:26:49 PM
I always thought SNA and SAN should perhaps be revised to avoid confusion.
That was a huge problem for Dulles when it was DIA and National was DCA. They switched over to IAD in 1968 to resolve the confusion.
Wasn't DIA also used for Denver Int'l?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 07:20:13 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 07:20:13 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 07:01:40 PMQuote from: Dirt Roads on April 30, 2021, 06:57:21 PMQuote from: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 06:26:49 PM
I always thought SNA and SAN should perhaps be revised to avoid confusion.
That was a huge problem for Dulles when it was DIA and National was DCA. They switched over to IAD in 1968 to resolve the confusion.
Wasn't DIA also used for Denver Int'l?
Maybe as an informal spoken acronym, but I believe the airport code was always DEN, even when it was called Stapleton.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jmacswimmer on April 30, 2021, 07:24:41 PM
Post by: jmacswimmer on April 30, 2021, 07:24:41 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 07:20:13 PMQuote from: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 07:01:40 PMQuote from: Dirt Roads on April 30, 2021, 06:57:21 PMQuote from: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 06:26:49 PM
I always thought SNA and SAN should perhaps be revised to avoid confusion.
That was a huge problem for Dulles when it was DIA and National was DCA. They switched over to IAD in 1968 to resolve the confusion.
Wasn't DIA also used for Denver Int'l?
Maybe as an informal spoken acronym, but I believe the airport code was always DEN, even when it was called Stapleton.
Yes - Wikipedia states that the modern Denver Int'l briefly used DVX after its runways were completed but before full opening, and then took over DEN from Stapleton once it closed. The airport is indeed frequently referred to as DIA, but that has never been its IATA code.
(But in hindsight, another good reason that Dulles switched to IAD a couple decades prior to the new DEN opening, or that would have opened another can of worms.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 07:27:44 PM
Post by: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 07:27:44 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on April 30, 2021, 07:24:41 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 07:20:13 PMQuote from: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 07:01:40 PMQuote from: Dirt Roads on April 30, 2021, 06:57:21 PMQuote from: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 06:26:49 PM
I always thought SNA and SAN should perhaps be revised to avoid confusion.
That was a huge problem for Dulles when it was DIA and National was DCA. They switched over to IAD in 1968 to resolve the confusion.
Wasn't DIA also used for Denver Int'l?
Maybe as an informal spoken acronym, but I believe the airport code was always DEN, even when it was called Stapleton.
Yes - Wikipedia states that the modern Denver Int'l briefly used DVX after its runways were completed but before full opening, and then took over DEN from Stapleton once it closed. The airport is indeed frequently referred to as DIA, but that has never been its IATA code.
(But in hindsight, another good reason that Dulles switched to IAD a couple decades prior to the new DEN opening, or that would have opened another can of worms.)
Gotcha. I knew I'd heard something to the effect of it having a different airport code used, albeit briefly.
There's also some fun conspiracy theories about Denver Int'l if you find that type of stuff amusing. Hidden symbols and it having underground facilities in event of nuclear fallout.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Dirt Roads on April 30, 2021, 07:40:19 PM
Post by: Dirt Roads on April 30, 2021, 07:40:19 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 30, 2021, 06:57:21 PM
That was a huge problem for Dulles when it was DIA and National was DCA. They switched over to IAD in 1968 to resolve the confusion.
Quote from: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 07:01:40 PM
Wasn't DIA also used for Denver Int'l?
I wrote the same thing and then fact-checked my post.
Quote from: jmacswimmer on April 30, 2021, 07:24:41 PM
Yes - Wikipedia states that the modern Denver Int'l briefly used DVX after its runways were completed but before full opening, and then took over DEN from Stapleton once it closed. The airport is indeed frequently referred to as DIA, but that has never been its IATA code.
And I should have known better, since I worked some on the APM system at Denver International Airport, and was on the project recovery team for the baggage system. I'm pretty sure that the City and County of Denver Department of Aviation originally asked the FAA for the DIA code, but was granted the DVX code temporarily since it was planned to completely close Stapleton.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 30, 2021, 07:44:58 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 30, 2021, 07:44:58 PM
Heck, Wichita commonly goes by its IATA code in general: ICT.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on April 30, 2021, 07:49:26 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on April 30, 2021, 07:49:26 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 30, 2021, 05:57:06 PMThe word "Airport" is still in there, so for cities with a single commercial airport, no info is being taken away from the general public. This is mostly for airports without a secondary name. For those with a secondary line, like Ohare and Midway, those can be used instead.Quote from: SkyPesos on April 29, 2021, 05:58:50 PM
I think if an airport would be used as a control city, my preferred format would be '[IATA code] Airport'. Like "CVG Airport" for Cincinnati, "IND Airport" for Indianapolis (current signage for that one is "Indpls Int'l Airport"), etc.
I highly doubt the average member of the American public knows the airport codes except for a few that are either obvious (JFK) or ubiquitous locally (RDU or ATL)–and even as to JFK, the BGSs generally said "Kennedy Airport" until relatively recently.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 08:37:27 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 08:37:27 PM
I would submit that anyone who is likely to be doing business at a specific airport should have seen the airport code at some point before they get on the road (either they are departing from there and saw it on their itinerary documents, or they are picking someone up from there, so they should have a general awareness of it), so even if the code is obscure, something like "✈ IAD" should be recognizable to anyone who needs to be following it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on April 30, 2021, 08:52:23 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on April 30, 2021, 08:52:23 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 05:25:59 PMQuote from: CtrlAltDel on April 30, 2021, 05:18:30 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 04:04:44 PMQuote from: renegade on April 30, 2021, 03:49:26 PM
Might want to point out that the average person does not know what an airport's IATA code is.
It kind of depends on the airport. Have you ever heard anyone say the words "Los Angeles International"? Also, the code for Will Rogers World Airport is blindingly obvious.
WRW? WIL? ROG? Looks on Wikipedia: OKC.
And the city it's located in?
Oklahoma City. And if you had said that the code for the Oklahoma City airport is blindingly obvious, I probably would have agreed with you. But you didn't.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 08:58:05 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 08:58:05 PM
What other city would name an airport after Will Rogers? Dayton, Ohio? :P
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on April 30, 2021, 09:02:18 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on April 30, 2021, 09:02:18 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 08:58:05 PM
What other city would name an airport after Will Rogers? Dayton, Ohio? :P
Well, he was born just north of Tulsa, so that would also be a good choice.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: andrepoiy on April 30, 2021, 10:00:27 PM
Post by: andrepoiy on April 30, 2021, 10:00:27 PM
What if a freeway leads directly to the airport? I think that the airport control city would be appropriate
Here in Toronto, it's signed as "[airport symbol] Pearson", and simply just the airport symbol on smaller signs.
Here in Toronto, it's signed as "[airport symbol] Pearson", and simply just the airport symbol on smaller signs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on May 01, 2021, 01:01:30 PM
Post by: webny99 on May 01, 2021, 01:01:30 PM
Quote from: Bruce on April 30, 2021, 06:03:07 PMQuote from: webny99 on April 30, 2021, 04:16:13 PM
Yeah, LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA... most the West Coast codes, at least, are very common.
SEA isn't widely used because it's easy to confuse with other terms using SEA as an abbreviation (or...the sea). Sea-Tac is already short enough.
That's fair. I wasn't necessarily trying to say it's common in local usage, but rather that many people know the code because it's so obvious.
Quote from: andrepoiy on April 30, 2021, 10:00:27 PM
What if a freeway leads directly to the airport? I think that the airport control city would be appropriate
Yeah, that's a little different. More of a local exit destination than a true control city.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on May 04, 2021, 12:13:05 PM
Post by: formulanone on May 04, 2021, 12:13:05 PM
Quote from: Bruce on April 30, 2021, 06:03:07 PM
SEA isn't widely used because it's easy to confuse with other terms using SEA as an abbreviation (or...the sea). Sea-Tac is already short enough.
Personally, I was initially a little disappointed that it didn't have a more unusual code. :)
American airports got the pick of the litter for the obvious codes, though there's the oddity of ICAO and IATA codes that don't remotely match up.
...and now I'm getting off-topic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 01:05:43 PM
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 01:05:43 PM
Rural exits should have 2 mile advance signs.
All exits should have at least 3 advance signs.
All exits should have at least 3 advance signs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 01:12:05 PM
Post by: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 01:12:05 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 01:05:43 PM
Rural exits should have 2 mile advance signs.
All exits should have at least 3 advance signs.
This would get very cluttered in rural Texas.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 01:14:00 PM
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 01:14:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 01:12:05 PMQuote from: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 01:05:43 PM
Rural exits should have 2 mile advance signs.
All exits should have at least 3 advance signs.
This would get very cluttered in rural Texas.
Which one, or both?
For the former, exceptions can be made if there's less than two miles between exits.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: StogieGuy7 on May 04, 2021, 01:21:00 PM
Post by: StogieGuy7 on May 04, 2021, 01:21:00 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 07:01:40 PMQuote from: Dirt Roads on April 30, 2021, 06:57:21 PMQuote from: OCGuy81 on April 30, 2021, 06:26:49 PM
I always thought SNA and SAN should perhaps be revised to avoid confusion.
That was a huge problem for Dulles when it was DIA and National was DCA. They switched over to IAD in 1968 to resolve the confusion.
Wasn't DIA also used for Denver Int'l?
Denver-area media incessantly referred to it as DIA during it's planning and construction (in the late 80's/early 90's) and the moniker stuck to an extent. But the 3 digit airport ID has been DEN since the day that service was flash cut from Stapleton to the new airport.
Another city/airport where the locals use a different reference for their airport than anyone else is Kansas City: locals call it KCI, despite it's code being MCI (which was supposed to stand for Mid Continent International Airport).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 01:31:39 PM
Post by: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 01:31:39 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 01:14:00 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 01:12:05 PMQuote from: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 01:05:43 PM
Rural exits should have 2 mile advance signs.
All exits should have at least 3 advance signs.
This would get very cluttered in rural Texas.
Which one, or both?
For the former, exceptions can be made if there's less than two miles between exits.
Both.
Here are the southbound exits, heading down I-35 from the Oklahoma state line...
(502 . Travel information center)
501 . FM 1202
500 . FM 372
(498B . Livestock inspection station)
498A . US 82
497 . FM 51
495 . Frontage Road
494 . FM 1306
491 . Spring Creek Road
489 . FM 1307
486 . Frontage Road
485 . Frontage Road
483 . FM 3002
482 . Chisam Road
481 . View Road
480 . Lois Road
479 . Belz Road
478 . FM 455
477 . I-35-BL
475B . Rector Road
475A . FM 156
473 . FM 3163
472 . Ganzer Road
471 . US 77 South
That's 26 exits in a stretch of 33-mile stretch of rural highway. At three advance signs each, that comes to a total of 78 advance exit signs. Talk about clutter!
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 02:57:20 PM
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 02:57:20 PM
Subtract the ones with back-to-back numbers, presuming they're less than two miles apart. That gets down to about ~68 signs over 26 miles. I bet that's only a fraction of the total number of signs already posted along that stretch.
Plus, some can likely be combined on overheads, and in the cases where there's three or more closely spaced exits, interchange sequence signs could be used, which would count as one of the three for each exit on the sign.
Granted, rural Texas is a little different than the Thruway, or I-81 (where NY recently (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3733211,-76.1220675,3a,45.1y,0.99h,84.14t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sCFp7wNTkpND4TTz5JkQgww!2e0!5s20180801T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1) started (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3180174,-76.1289268,3a,45.3y,189.39h,87.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMIKWW9noPNcfTLsAwXXlRw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) using 2 mile advance signs). But I still stand by my opinion, with the less-than-2-miles-between-exits exception.
Plus, some can likely be combined on overheads, and in the cases where there's three or more closely spaced exits, interchange sequence signs could be used, which would count as one of the three for each exit on the sign.
Granted, rural Texas is a little different than the Thruway, or I-81 (where NY recently (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3733211,-76.1220675,3a,45.1y,0.99h,84.14t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sCFp7wNTkpND4TTz5JkQgww!2e0!5s20180801T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1) started (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3180174,-76.1289268,3a,45.3y,189.39h,87.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMIKWW9noPNcfTLsAwXXlRw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) using 2 mile advance signs). But I still stand by my opinion, with the less-than-2-miles-between-exits exception.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 03:07:39 PM
Post by: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 03:07:39 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 01:05:43 PM
Rural exits should have 2 mile advance signs.
All exits should have at least 3 advance signs.
Quote from: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 01:14:00 PM
For the former, exceptions can be made if there's less than two miles between exits.
Quote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 01:31:39 PM
That's 26 exits in a stretch of 33-mile stretch of rural highway. At three advance signs each, that comes to a total of 78 advance exit signs. Talk about clutter!
Quote from: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 02:57:20 PM
Subtract the ones with back-to-back numbers, presuming they're less than two miles apart. That gets down to about ~68 signs over 26 miles.
Do you mean that your under-2mile exception now applies to both of your opinions, not just the first one?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 04:24:32 PM
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 04:24:32 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 03:07:39 PMQuote from: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 01:05:43 PM...
Rural exits should have 2 mile advance signs.
All exits should have at least 3 advance signs.
Do you mean that your under-2mile exception now applies to both of your opinions, not just the first one?
Sorry, I wasn't very clear. No, not necessarily.
If there's more than 2 miles between exits, the 3 signs would be:
2 MILES
1 MILE
➚
If there's less than 2 miles between exits, the 3 signs would be:
1 MILE
1/2 MILE
➚
If there's less than 1 mile between exits, the 3 signs would be:
1/2 MILE
1/4 MILE
➚
Exact mileages may vary, and of course, if there are any interchange sequence signs they would count towards the total.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on May 04, 2021, 04:27:00 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on May 04, 2021, 04:27:00 PM
So how does it get reduced to under 78 signs then?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 04:32:31 PM
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 04:32:31 PM
Quote from: 1 on May 04, 2021, 04:27:00 PM
So how does it get reduced to under 78 signs then?
Overheads and interchange sequence signs.
However, I shouldn't have subtracted the 10 initially. That was my mistake.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 04:33:50 PM
Post by: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 04:33:50 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 04:24:32 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 03:07:39 PMQuote from: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 01:05:43 PM...
Rural exits should have 2 mile advance signs.
All exits should have at least 3 advance signs.
Do you mean that your under-2mile exception now applies to both of your opinions, not just the first one?
Sorry, I wasn't very clear. No, not necessarily.
If there's more than 2 miles between exits, the 3 signs would be:
2 MILES
1 MILE
➚
If there's less than 2 miles between exits, the 3 signs would be:
1 MILE
1/2 MILE
➚
If there's less than 1 mile between exits, the 3 signs would be:
1/2 MILE
1/4 MILE
➚
Exact mileages may vary, and of course, if there are any interchange sequence signs they would count towards the total.
1. Each of those has two advance exit signs, not three. ??
2. In the last scenario, I think the ½-mile advance sign should be pushed back to the ¾-mile point.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 04:39:39 PM
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 04:39:39 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 04:33:50 PM
1. Each of those has two advance exit signs, not three. ??
Well, what do you call this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0473929,-77.6604077,3a,75y,84.87h,86.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soe_68f4131Z2glQ1Ydi-9g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) if not an advance exit sign? I didn't think it was worth distinguishing the ones with XX MILE(S) from the final one with the arrow.
Quote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 04:33:50 PM
2. In the last scenario, I think the ½-mile advance sign should be pushed back to the ¾-mile point.
🠗 See below 🠗
Quote from: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 01:05:43 PM
Exact mileages may vary
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 04:48:20 PM
Post by: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 04:48:20 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 04:39:39 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 04:33:50 PM
1. Each of those has two advance exit signs, not three. ??
Well, what do you call this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0473929,-77.6604077,3a,75y,84.87h,86.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soe_68f4131Z2glQ1Ydi-9g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) if not an advance exit sign?
I just call that an exit sign.
Is my terminology wrong?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 04:55:56 PM
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 04:55:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 04:48:20 PMQuote from: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 04:39:39 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 04:33:50 PM
1. Each of those has two advance exit signs, not three. ??
Well, what do you call this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0473929,-77.6604077,3a,75y,84.87h,86.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soe_68f4131Z2glQ1Ydi-9g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) if not an advance exit sign?
I just call that an exit sign.
Is my terminology wrong?
I don't know. It never occurred to me to differentiate, but maybe that's just me.
Also, what is this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0474891,-77.6562678,3a,15y,92.55h,88.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skMdw-kpxvTavnHrgaTEMvg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) called? I know the area is the gore, but I don't know if that means the sign is the gore sign, or if it has another name.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 05:06:34 PM
Post by: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 05:06:34 PM
See here. (https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2e.htm#section2E30)
Interchange Sequence Signs
(https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/images/fig2e_31.gif)
Advance Guide Signs
(https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/images/fig2e_22.gif)
Exit Signs
(https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/images/fig2e_26.gif)
Gore Signs
(https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/images/fig2e_28.gif)
Interchange Sequence Signs
(https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/images/fig2e_31.gif)
Advance Guide Signs
(https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/images/fig2e_22.gif)
Exit Signs
(https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/images/fig2e_26.gif)
Gore Signs
(https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/images/fig2e_28.gif)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on May 04, 2021, 05:17:09 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on May 04, 2021, 05:17:09 PM
Do you really need two miles to prepare for an exit? I think the usual one mile is plenty of time for most exits. Two miles for the major interchanges with other major highways.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 05:20:08 PM
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 05:20:08 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on May 04, 2021, 05:17:09 PM
Do you really need two miles to prepare for an exit? I think the usual one mile is plenty of time for most exits. Two miles for the major interchanges with other major highways.
In rural areas with ample spacing between exits, yes. You may not need it personally, but it is a good thing to have in general. Especially on roads like the Thruway where there may be 15-20 miles between exits.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 05:23:06 PM
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 05:23:06 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 05:06:34 PM
See here. (https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2e.htm#section2E30)
...
OK, I guess I misspoke.
Quote from: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 01:14:00 PM
All exits should have at least32 advance guide signs.
You get the idea.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: sprjus4 on May 04, 2021, 07:46:26 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 04, 2021, 07:46:26 PM
For rural areas, maybe 2 miles for important connections, but most rural interchanges are so desolate and underutilized that a mile and 1/2 mile sign suffice.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 09:40:21 PM
Post by: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 09:40:21 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 04, 2021, 07:46:26 PM
For rural areas, maybe 2 miles for important connections, but most rural interchanges are so desolate and underutilized that a mile and 1/2 mile sign suffice.
Prior to the new 2 mile installs on I-81, NY has historically posted just a 1 mile advance... that's it until the exit.
I think two advance signs should be required; I'm OK with 1 mile and 1/2 mile, but prefer 2 miles and 1 mile.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 05, 2021, 09:29:55 AM
Post by: kphoger on May 05, 2021, 09:29:55 AM
In Kentucky, I've seen 2 miles for the first advance sign, then ½ mile for the second one. I kind of like that approach.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: texaskdog on May 05, 2021, 09:34:56 AM
Post by: texaskdog on May 05, 2021, 09:34:56 AM
Here's one: interstates could have just been a system upgrade instead of it's own system. In some remote areas an expressway would have been fine.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 09:39:22 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 09:39:22 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on May 05, 2021, 09:34:56 AMI agree. US and state Highways could have just been upgraded as needed. With GPS, nobody would care what is an Interstate or not.
Here's one: interstates could have just been a system upgrade instead of it's own system. In some remote areas an expressway would have been fine.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on May 05, 2021, 09:42:59 AM
Post by: hotdogPi on May 05, 2021, 09:42:59 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 09:39:22 AMQuote from: texaskdog on May 05, 2021, 09:34:56 AMI agree. US and state Highways could have just been upgraded as needed. With GPS, nobody would care what is an Interstate or not.
Here's one: interstates could have just been a system upgrade instead of it's own system. In some remote areas an expressway would have been fine.
GPS existed in the 1950s?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on May 05, 2021, 09:45:14 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on May 05, 2021, 09:45:14 AM
For advanced BGS distances, I like 1 mi -> 1/2 mi -> Exit for the 3 signs. 2 mi is a bit long, but could be used at freeway to freeway interchanges. In places that use metric, I think every 100 m number has been used as an advanced distance somewhere out there. BC uses 1200 m -> 600 m -> Exit. I commonly see 2 km -> 1 km -> 500 m -> Exit used in China and Japan. I also looked at some Dutch freeways on GSV, and it looks like 1300 m and 700 m are used there.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on May 05, 2021, 09:46:34 AM
Post by: webny99 on May 05, 2021, 09:46:34 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 09:39:22 AMQuote from: texaskdog on May 05, 2021, 09:34:56 AMI agree. US and state Highways could have just been upgraded as needed. With GPS, nobody would care what is an Interstate or not.
Here's one: interstates could have just been a system upgrade instead of it's own system. In some remote areas an expressway would have been fine.
This just goes to show that we take interstate standards for granted. Oftentimes you don't miss something until you don't have it. Downgrading to expressways instead of full freeways in rural areas would be a prime example.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 09:49:13 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 09:49:13 AM
Quote from: 1 on May 05, 2021, 09:42:59 AMToday nobody would care. Paper maps that show what routes are freeways would have sufficed back then.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 09:39:22 AMQuote from: texaskdog on May 05, 2021, 09:34:56 AMI agree. US and state Highways could have just been upgraded as needed. With GPS, nobody would care what is an Interstate or not.
Here's one: interstates could have just been a system upgrade instead of it's own system. In some remote areas an expressway would have been fine.
GPS existed in the 1950s?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on May 05, 2021, 10:17:41 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on May 05, 2021, 10:17:41 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 05, 2021, 09:46:34 AMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 09:39:22 AMQuote from: texaskdog on May 05, 2021, 09:34:56 AMI agree. US and state Highways could have just been upgraded as needed. With GPS, nobody would care what is an Interstate or not.
Here's one: interstates could have just been a system upgrade instead of it's own system. In some remote areas an expressway would have been fine.
This just goes to show that we take interstate standards for granted. Oftentimes you don't miss something until you don't have it. Downgrading to expressways instead of full freeways in rural areas would be a prime example.
Agreed. Building interstates in rural areas probably was pretty cost effective too. And simply upgrading US highways would have been more hassle over time. Had they needed upgrades.
Building to one standard was a smart idea.
What we SHOULD have seen less of is building interstates through city centers. That is one where I agree with the "Stroad" video. Keep the freeways out of the cities and upgrade some streets to non-interstate standards to connect with the freeways.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:20:27 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:20:27 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on May 05, 2021, 10:17:41 AMIt would have saved costs to leave some at-grade interchanges in very rural areas out west.Quote from: webny99 on May 05, 2021, 09:46:34 AMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 09:39:22 AMQuote from: texaskdog on May 05, 2021, 09:34:56 AMI agree. US and state Highways could have just been upgraded as needed. With GPS, nobody would care what is an Interstate or not.
Here's one: interstates could have just been a system upgrade instead of it's own system. In some remote areas an expressway would have been fine.
This just goes to show that we take interstate standards for granted. Oftentimes you don't miss something until you don't have it. Downgrading to expressways instead of full freeways in rural areas would be a prime example.
Agreed. Building interstates in rural areas probably was pretty cost effective too. And simply upgrading US highways would have been more hassle over time. Had they needed upgrades.
Building to one standard was a smart idea.
What we SHOULD have seen less of is building interstates through city centers. That is one where I agree with the "Stroad" video. Keep the freeways out of the cities and upgrade some streets to non-interstate standards to connect with the freeways.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 05, 2021, 10:35:44 AM
Post by: kphoger on May 05, 2021, 10:35:44 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:20:27 AM
It would have saved costs to leave some at-grade interchanges in very rural areas out west.
But how many of those would have needed to be upgraded to grade separation later? That's the question. Upgrading them later would have been more expensive, for several reasons.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:51:32 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:51:32 AM
Quote from: kphoger on May 05, 2021, 10:35:44 AMIt depends where. In places in the east yes probably. In rural North Dakota I doubt it.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:20:27 AM
It would have saved costs to leave some at-grade interchanges in very rural areas out west.
But how many of those would have needed to be upgraded to grade separation later? That's the question. Upgrading them later would have been more expensive, for several reasons.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Angelo71 on May 05, 2021, 11:20:17 AM
Post by: Angelo71 on May 05, 2021, 11:20:17 AM
I don't know if this is unpopular but I like this: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2360601,-83.739006,3a,49.8y,34.02h,91.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbP95ttFOancIyvcIvTLl9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on May 05, 2021, 11:23:07 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on May 05, 2021, 11:23:07 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:51:32 AMQuote from: kphoger on May 05, 2021, 10:35:44 AMIt depends where. In places in the east yes probably. In rural North Dakota I doubt it.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:20:27 AM
It would have saved costs to leave some at-grade interchanges in very rural areas out west.
But how many of those would have needed to be upgraded to grade separation later? That's the question. Upgrading them later would have been more expensive, for several reasons.
Or you could simply design to one standard and not leave it open to question.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on May 14, 2021, 03:07:20 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 14, 2021, 03:07:20 AM
Rectangular white route markers should be banned, as they look too much like speed limit signs. States currently using them (IL, IN, TX, MA, etc.) should be forced to either use a different marker, use a different color scheme (like green/white), or use the circular route marker.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 07:55:58 AM
Post by: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 07:55:58 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 14, 2021, 03:07:20 AM
Rectangular white route markers should be banned, as they look too much like speed limit signs. States currently using them (IL, IN, TX, MA, etc.) should be forced to either use a different marker, use a different color scheme (like green/white), or use the circular route marker.
I wonder what a poll of this would find. I agree, personally.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on May 14, 2021, 07:57:52 AM
Post by: hotdogPi on May 14, 2021, 07:57:52 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 07:55:58 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on May 14, 2021, 03:07:20 AM
Rectangular white route markers should be banned, as they look too much like speed limit signs. States currently using them (IL, IN, TX, MA, etc.) should be forced to either use a different marker, use a different color scheme (like green/white), or use the circular route marker.
I wonder what a poll of this would find. I agree, personally.
Massachusetts at least skips 45, 50, 55, and 65. 60 and 70 are used, though. (40 on 40 is reasonable.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 11:52:51 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 11:52:51 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 14, 2021, 03:07:20 AMI've never confused a state route sign for a speed limit sign.
Rectangular white route markers should be banned, as they look too much like speed limit signs. States currently using them (IL, IN, TX, MA, etc.) should be forced to either use a different marker, use a different color scheme (like green/white), or use the circular route marker.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 01:31:53 PM
Post by: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 01:31:53 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 11:52:51 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on May 14, 2021, 03:07:20 AM
Rectangular white route markers should be banned, as they look too much like speed limit signs. States currently using them (IL, IN, TX, MA, etc.) should be forced to either use a different marker, use a different color scheme (like green/white), or use the circular route marker.
I've never confused a state route sign for a speed limit sign.
I've certainly had to do a double-take when they're mounted on the same post and both numbers begin with the same digit (https://goo.gl/maps/3svPq79jiRWWrreb9).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 01:32:22 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 01:32:22 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 01:31:53 PMNow I can see how that can be confusing.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 11:52:51 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on May 14, 2021, 03:07:20 AM
Rectangular white route markers should be banned, as they look too much like speed limit signs. States currently using them (IL, IN, TX, MA, etc.) should be forced to either use a different marker, use a different color scheme (like green/white), or use the circular route marker.
I've never confused a state route sign for a speed limit sign.
I've certainly had to do a double-take when they're mounted on the same post and both numbers begin with the same digit (https://goo.gl/maps/3svPq79jiRWWrreb9).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 01:49:03 PM
Post by: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 01:49:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 01:32:22 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 01:31:53 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 11:52:51 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on May 14, 2021, 03:07:20 AM
Rectangular white route markers should be banned, as they look too much like speed limit signs. States currently using them (IL, IN, TX, MA, etc.) should be forced to either use a different marker, use a different color scheme (like green/white), or use the circular route marker.
I've never confused a state route sign for a speed limit sign.
I've certainly had to do a double-take when they're mounted on the same post and both numbers begin with the same digit (https://goo.gl/maps/3svPq79jiRWWrreb9).
Now I can see how that can be confusing.
It used to be even worse. They used to be stacked. (https://goo.gl/maps/CuZ9mnAAVY9uhM9b6)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ned Weasel on May 14, 2021, 02:19:06 PM
Post by: Ned Weasel on May 14, 2021, 02:19:06 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 01:49:03 PM
It used to be even worse. They used to be stacked. (https://goo.gl/maps/CuZ9mnAAVY9uhM9b6)
Holy crap! That sign could be easily misinterpreted as "The speed limit is normally 30, but in Illinois it's 34."
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 02:25:34 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 02:25:34 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 14, 2021, 02:19:06 PMThankfully 30 and 34 are not that far apart, and 34 is not a real speed limit.Quote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 01:49:03 PM
It used to be even worse. They used to be stacked. (https://goo.gl/maps/CuZ9mnAAVY9uhM9b6)
Holy crap! That sign could be easily misinterpreted as "The speed limit is normally 30, but in Illinois it's 34."
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:27:44 PM
Post by: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:27:44 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 02:25:34 PMQuote from: stridentweasel on May 14, 2021, 02:19:06 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 01:49:03 PM
It used to be even worse. They used to be stacked. (https://goo.gl/maps/CuZ9mnAAVY9uhM9b6)
Holy crap! That sign could be easily misinterpreted as "The speed limit is normally 30, but in Illinois it's 34."
Thankfully 30 and 34 are not that far apart, and 34 is not a real speed limit.
But the point remains. White square route markers look too much like speed limit signs. When you glance up at a sign, you should know immediately that it's a speed limit sign or a route shield or whatever.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 02:28:35 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 02:28:35 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:27:44 PMI can tell, especially with the Illinois text and the different shape. Or maybe I just spend to much time looking at speed limit shields.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 02:25:34 PMQuote from: stridentweasel on May 14, 2021, 02:19:06 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 01:49:03 PM
It used to be even worse. They used to be stacked. (https://goo.gl/maps/CuZ9mnAAVY9uhM9b6)
Holy crap! That sign could be easily misinterpreted as "The speed limit is normally 30, but in Illinois it's 34."
Thankfully 30 and 34 are not that far apart, and 34 is not a real speed limit.
But the point remains. White square route markers look too much like speed limit signs. When you glance up at a sign, you should know immediately that it's a speed limit sign or a route shield or whatever.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:37:06 PM
Post by: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:37:06 PM
Honestly, at first glace, doesn't it kind of look like the speed limit is 50 mph here (https://goo.gl/maps/iFa9kgGnAPnDmj99A)? Or here (https://goo.gl/maps/fKhr4BnHW6B4woHq9)?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 02:38:56 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 02:38:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:37:06 PMA little, but that's a bit far from the shield.
Honestly, at first glace, doesn't it kind of look like the speed limit is 50 mph here (https://goo.gl/maps/iFa9kgGnAPnDmj99A)? Or here (https://goo.gl/maps/fKhr4BnHW6B4woHq9)?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:46:14 PM
Post by: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:46:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 02:38:56 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:37:06 PM
Honestly, at first glace, doesn't it kind of look like the speed limit is 50 mph here (https://goo.gl/maps/iFa9kgGnAPnDmj99A)? Or here (https://goo.gl/maps/fKhr4BnHW6B4woHq9)?
A little, but that's a bit far from the shield.
What do you mean?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 04:21:09 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 04:21:09 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:46:14 PMThe picture.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 02:38:56 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:37:06 PM
Honestly, at first glace, doesn't it kind of look like the speed limit is 50 mph here (https://goo.gl/maps/iFa9kgGnAPnDmj99A)? Or here (https://goo.gl/maps/fKhr4BnHW6B4woHq9)?
A little, but that's a bit far from the shield.
What do you mean?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 04:25:09 PM
Post by: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 04:25:09 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 04:21:09 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:46:14 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 02:38:56 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:37:06 PM
Honestly, at first glace, doesn't it kind of look like the speed limit is 50 mph here (https://goo.gl/maps/iFa9kgGnAPnDmj99A)? Or here (https://goo.gl/maps/fKhr4BnHW6B4woHq9)?
A little, but that's a bit far from the shield.
What do you mean?
The picture.
Which one?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: texaskdog on May 14, 2021, 05:26:34 PM
Post by: texaskdog on May 14, 2021, 05:26:34 PM
If not mentioned already, I think all 2dis should go around cities whenever possible e.g. on I694 in Saint Paul. Thru traffic would be encouraged to avoid the more congested city.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Ned Weasel on May 14, 2021, 05:51:15 PM
Post by: Ned Weasel on May 14, 2021, 05:51:15 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 02:38:56 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:37:06 PMA little, but that's a bit far from the shield.
Honestly, at first glace, doesn't it kind of look like the speed limit is 50 mph here (https://goo.gl/maps/iFa9kgGnAPnDmj99A)? Or here (https://goo.gl/maps/fKhr4BnHW6B4woHq9)?
The point is, when a driver can read the number 50 in black digits on a vertically proportioned sign with two smaller lines of text above it, there's a very good chance the driver will think it's a "SPEED LIMIT 50" sign before he or she can make out the two words above the number.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ran4sh on May 14, 2021, 06:15:07 PM
Post by: ran4sh on May 14, 2021, 06:15:07 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on May 14, 2021, 05:26:34 PM
If not mentioned already, I think all 2dis should go around cities whenever possible e.g. on I694 in Saint Paul. Thru traffic would be encouraged to avoid the more congested city.
Sometimes the bypass is more congested.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on May 14, 2021, 06:46:24 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 14, 2021, 06:46:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 04:21:09 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:46:14 PMThe picture.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 02:38:56 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:37:06 PM
Honestly, at first glace, doesn't it kind of look like the speed limit is 50 mph here (https://goo.gl/maps/iFa9kgGnAPnDmj99A)? Or here (https://goo.gl/maps/fKhr4BnHW6B4woHq9)?
A little, but that's a bit far from the shield.
What do you mean?
Buddy, I hate to tell you, but cars are often pretty far from signs as you're trying to read them.
The issue is that there's no reason that white square markers need to exist. If you need a shield that says "we have no creativity to come up with something better" we have a sign for that. It's the circle shield.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 07:14:45 PM
Post by: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 07:14:45 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 14, 2021, 06:46:24 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 04:21:09 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:46:14 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 02:38:56 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:37:06 PM
Honestly, at first glace, doesn't it kind of look like the speed limit is 50 mph here (https://goo.gl/maps/iFa9kgGnAPnDmj99A)? Or here (https://goo.gl/maps/fKhr4BnHW6B4woHq9)?
A little, but that's a bit far from the shield.
What do you mean?
The picture.
Buddy, I hate to tell you, but cars are often pretty far from signs as you're trying to read them.
The issue is that there's no reason that white square markers need to exist. If you need a shield that says "we have no creativity to come up with something better" we have a sign for that. It's the circle shield.
Has nobody figured out yet that one of my links goes to an IL-50 route shield, and the other goes to an actual 50-mph speed limit sign? :biggrin: Do they look so similar that I successfully pulled one over on you?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on May 14, 2021, 09:05:37 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 14, 2021, 09:05:37 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 07:14:45 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on May 14, 2021, 06:46:24 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 04:21:09 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:46:14 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on May 14, 2021, 02:38:56 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 02:37:06 PM
Honestly, at first glace, doesn't it kind of look like the speed limit is 50 mph here (https://goo.gl/maps/iFa9kgGnAPnDmj99A)? Or here (https://goo.gl/maps/fKhr4BnHW6B4woHq9)?
A little, but that's a bit far from the shield.
What do you mean?
The picture.
Buddy, I hate to tell you, but cars are often pretty far from signs as you're trying to read them.
The issue is that there's no reason that white square markers need to exist. If you need a shield that says "we have no creativity to come up with something better" we have a sign for that. It's the circle shield.
Has nobody figured out yet that one of my links goes to an IL-50 route shield, and the other goes to an actual 50-mph speed limit sign? :biggrin: Do they look so similar that I successfully pulled one over on you?
Oh, I noticed, I just didn't say anything since I figured it was a salient rhetorical point.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on May 14, 2021, 09:07:00 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on May 14, 2021, 09:07:00 PM
The Business Interstate shield is better looking than the mainline variant.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 15, 2021, 01:05:00 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 15, 2021, 01:05:00 AM
Interstates should be able to have Service Plazas and be tolled.
Interstate standards should either be relaxed slightly or we should de interstate tons of roads.
Interstate standards should either be relaxed slightly or we should de interstate tons of roads.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ran4sh on May 15, 2021, 09:24:32 AM
Post by: ran4sh on May 15, 2021, 09:24:32 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on May 04, 2021, 05:17:09 PM
Do you really need two miles to prepare for an exit? I think the usual one mile is plenty of time for most exits. Two miles for the major interchanges with other major highways.
You need 2 miles of advance notice. If the first sign were 1 mile then drivers exiting would have to react as soon as possible when seeing the sign. But with the first sign being 2 miles, some traffic will wait until the 1 mile point before getting into the lane for the exit.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 15, 2021, 01:05:00 AM
Interstate standards should either be relaxed slightly or we should de interstate tons of roads.
There's another option, which is, the designations should remain but the federal government should incentivize states to upgrade the non-compliant sections by withholding funding for non-compliance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on May 15, 2021, 10:05:52 AM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on May 15, 2021, 10:05:52 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 15, 2021, 01:05:00 AM
Interstates should be able to have Service Plazas and be tolled.
Interstate standards should either be relaxed slightly or we should de interstate tons of roads.
At least locally in California things like soft interior and narrow shoulders is a primary driver of why certain freeways don't meet Interstate standards.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: bing101 on May 15, 2021, 10:27:18 AM
Post by: bing101 on May 15, 2021, 10:27:18 AM
Bring back button copy signs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 07:15:30 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 07:15:30 PM
Road Atlases are almost obsolete now with google and GPS.
Quote from: bing101 on May 15, 2021, 10:27:18 AMNot unpopular
Bring back button copy signs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on May 16, 2021, 07:56:41 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 16, 2021, 07:56:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 07:15:30 PM
Road Atlases are almost obsolete now with google and GPS.
It's a lot easier to check a route when you're driving alone with an atlas open to the correct page on the passenger seat than it is fishing your phone out of your pocket, unlocking it, hoping some stupid BS notification doesn't pop up, scrolling around and trying to zoom in with one hand on the wheel, etc.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 07:15:30 PMQuote from: bing101 on May 15, 2021, 10:27:18 AMNot unpopular
Bring back button copy signs.
Most of my nostalgia for the button copy era is not so much because of the button copy itself (OkDOT used button copy and reflective sheeting at the same time, which is as bad as it sounds) but because back then OkDOT signage was actually good.
(https://i.imgur.com/e0zggFe.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/s9Zmtq0.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 08:26:39 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 08:26:39 PM
The atlas can be useful for seeing the big picture, but it's useless for finding specific businesses/hotels/addresses.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on May 16, 2021, 08:29:18 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on May 16, 2021, 08:29:18 PM
That's not what you use it for.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 08:55:21 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 08:55:21 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 16, 2021, 08:29:18 PMMost people barely look at the map. They just plug in their destination to the GPS and go.
That's not what you use it for.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ran4sh on May 16, 2021, 09:37:21 PM
Post by: ran4sh on May 16, 2021, 09:37:21 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 08:26:39 PM
The atlas can be useful for seeing the big picture, but it's useless for finding specific businesses/hotels/addresses.
The point was that, when you reach the city where you're looking for an address, places such as gas stations and welcome centers would have city street maps with an index, which is what you would use to find a specific street.
Also, most major establishments actually gave directions for how to reach them from major routes. And if you were visiting a friend's house or something like that, you would ask them for directions.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 08:55:21 PM
Most people barely look at the map. They just plug in their destination to the GPS and go.
I understand that you're just a kid, but if you believe that there are no problems with that method (compared to before GPS), then you may be part of the problem.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 09:39:42 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 09:39:42 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on May 16, 2021, 09:37:21 PMI do remember seeing brochures for establishments with directions from nearby major cities.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 08:26:39 PM
The atlas can be useful for seeing the big picture, but it's useless for finding specific businesses/hotels/addresses.
The point was that, when you reach the city where you're looking for an address, places such as gas stations and welcome centers would have city street maps with an index, which is what you would use to find a specific street.
Also, most major establishments actually gave directions for how to reach them from major routes. And if you were visiting a friend's house or something like that, you would ask them for directions.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 08:55:21 PM
Most people barely look at the map. They just plug in their destination to the GPS and go.
I understand that you're just a kid, but if you believe that there are no problems with that method (compared to before GPS), then you may be part of the problem.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 18, 2021, 03:58:02 PM
Post by: kphoger on May 18, 2021, 03:58:02 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 08:26:39 PM
The atlas can be useful for seeing the big picture, but it's useless for finding specific businesses/hotels/addresses.
Agreed. Neither one is useless.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: I-39 on May 18, 2021, 04:01:45 PM
Post by: I-39 on May 18, 2021, 04:01:45 PM
A lot of midwest states have too many freeway or near freeway roads for the population they serve.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2021, 04:33:57 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2021, 04:33:57 PM
Quote from: I-39 on May 18, 2021, 04:01:45 PMYoungstown Ohio being an example.
A lot of midwest states have too many freeway or near freeway roads for the population they serve.
Quote from: kphoger on May 18, 2021, 03:58:02 PMWhat is useless?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 08:26:39 PM
The atlas can be useful for seeing the big picture, but it's useless for finding specific businesses/hotels/addresses.
Agreed. Neither one is useless.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 18, 2021, 04:57:05 PM
Post by: kphoger on May 18, 2021, 04:57:05 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2021, 04:33:57 PM
What is useless?
Men's nipples.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2021, 05:02:26 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2021, 05:02:26 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 18, 2021, 04:57:05 PMNo, relating to the atlas. As in:Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2021, 04:33:57 PM
What is useless?
Men's nipples.
QuoteAgreed. Neither one is useless.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on May 19, 2021, 12:22:18 PM
Post by: kphoger on May 19, 2021, 12:22:18 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 07:15:30 PM
Road Atlases are almost obsolete now with google and GPS.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 08:26:39 PM
The atlas can be useful for seeing the big picture, but it's useless for finding specific businesses/hotels/addresses.
Quote from: kphoger on May 18, 2021, 03:58:02 PM
Neither one is useless.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2021, 04:33:57 PM
What is useless?
Huh?
I wasn't saying anything was useless. I was saying that both atlases and Google/GPS are useful.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 19, 2021, 12:27:27 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 19, 2021, 12:27:27 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 19, 2021, 12:22:18 PMOhQuote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 07:15:30 PM
Road Atlases are almost obsolete now with google and GPS.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2021, 08:26:39 PM
The atlas can be useful for seeing the big picture, but it's useless for finding specific businesses/hotels/addresses.Quote from: kphoger on May 18, 2021, 03:58:02 PM
Neither one is useless.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2021, 04:33:57 PM
What is useless?
Huh?
I wasn't saying anything was useless. I was saying that both atlases and Google/GPS are useful.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on June 12, 2021, 12:46:25 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 12, 2021, 12:46:25 PM
Here's one typed while I'm on northbound I-26 in NC, I mean WB, right now.
Like US routes, Interstates should be allowed to have a N-S cardinal direction signed for an even number route, or vice versa, in a state if it's clearly aligned that way. This includes I-26 in NC and TN, I-95 in CT, I-94 in IL, and probably some others I'm forgetting.
Like US routes, Interstates should be allowed to have a N-S cardinal direction signed for an even number route, or vice versa, in a state if it's clearly aligned that way. This includes I-26 in NC and TN, I-95 in CT, I-94 in IL, and probably some others I'm forgetting.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 12, 2021, 05:18:34 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 12, 2021, 05:18:34 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 12, 2021, 12:46:25 PMPart of I-69 in Michigan is signed east-west I think.
Here's one typed while I'm on northbound I-26 in NC, I mean WB, right now.
Like US routes, Interstates should be allowed to have a N-S cardinal direction signed for an even number route, or vice versa, in a state if it's clearly aligned that way. This includes I-26 in NC and TN, I-95 in CT, I-94 in IL, and probably some others I'm forgetting.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JoePCool14 on June 12, 2021, 06:19:35 PM
Post by: JoePCool14 on June 12, 2021, 06:19:35 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 12, 2021, 12:46:25 PM
Here's one typed while I'm on northbound I-26 in NC, I mean WB, right now.
Like US routes, Interstates should be allowed to have a N-S cardinal direction signed for an even number route, or vice versa, in a state if it's clearly aligned that way. This includes I-26 in NC and TN, I-95 in CT, I-94 in IL, and probably some others I'm forgetting.
No, I think that's a terrible idea. After a while, you just get used to understanding which way is which. I live North of Chicago, and we've all become accustomed to east corresponding to inbound, west as corresponding to outbound (or to Milwaukee).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on June 12, 2021, 09:34:40 PM
Post by: vdeane on June 12, 2021, 09:34:40 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on June 12, 2021, 06:19:35 PMGiven that the reason I've heard as to why I-41 has that pointless overlap with I-94 is so WI can sign an interstate with a north-south banner on that corridor, it might not be as bad an idea as one would think. While we don't want things to swap willy-nilly with seemingly every curve, there are places where an interstate spends large amounts of time oriented perpendicular to its signed directions - sometimes through entire states (such as the already mentioned I-26 in NC and TN, or I-95 in CT).Quote from: SkyPesos on June 12, 2021, 12:46:25 PM
Here's one typed while I'm on northbound I-26 in NC, I mean WB, right now.
Like US routes, Interstates should be allowed to have a N-S cardinal direction signed for an even number route, or vice versa, in a state if it's clearly aligned that way. This includes I-26 in NC and TN, I-95 in CT, I-94 in IL, and probably some others I'm forgetting.
No, I think that's a terrible idea. After a while, you just get used to understanding which way is which. I live North of Chicago, and we've all become accustomed to east corresponding to inbound, west as corresponding to outbound (or to Milwaukee).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: crispy93 on June 14, 2021, 10:35:06 AM
Post by: crispy93 on June 14, 2021, 10:35:06 AM
I don't miss diagrammatical signs but I do miss the old way of signing option lanes like [regular white down arrow] [exit only arrow]. APLs are huge and don't work everywhere. NYSDOT has replaced those types of signs with a single EXIT ONLY arrow and unless you notice the dinky supplemental signage, you're led to assume it's a one-lane exit. Like recently I saw someone trying to get on 278 West from the Grand Central Parkway and there was no indication that it's a two-lane exit so he slowed to almost a stop to get into the right-most lane. I don't blame him.
If you stop in a traffic circle, you should be automatically at fault if someone rear-ends you. Unless you can blatantly prove that the other driver cut you off, the rear-ender is almost always at fault.
If you stop in a traffic circle, you should be automatically at fault if someone rear-ends you. Unless you can blatantly prove that the other driver cut you off, the rear-ender is almost always at fault.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 14, 2021, 11:11:30 AM
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 14, 2021, 11:11:30 AM
Signing cardinal directions is generally more trouble than it's worth, and any navigational benefit would be exceeded by a more thoughtful implementation of control cities.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on June 14, 2021, 11:45:14 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 14, 2021, 11:45:14 AM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on June 14, 2021, 11:11:30 AMIf only ISTHA uses Milwaukee instead of Wisconsin for NB, I mean WB, I-94, that would be more useful. I-90 also goes to Wisconsin from Chicago, in a different direction.
Signing cardinal directions is generally more trouble than it's worth, and any navigational benefit would be exceeded by a more thoughtful implementation of control cities.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Bickendan on June 15, 2021, 06:28:28 AM
Post by: Bickendan on June 15, 2021, 06:28:28 AM
We should use the international speed limit signs - the red bordered white circle with just the number in it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 09:06:33 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 09:06:33 AM
Quote from: Bickendan on June 15, 2021, 06:28:28 AMDoes that require switching to the metric system or not? As much as I like a switch, the US in general seems too lazy to do so.
We should use the international speed limit signs - the red bordered white circle with just the number in it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 15, 2021, 09:24:49 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 15, 2021, 09:24:49 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 14, 2021, 11:45:14 AMQuote from: TXtoNJ on June 14, 2021, 11:11:30 AMIf only ISTHA uses Milwaukee instead of Wisconsin for NB, I mean WB, I-94, that would be more useful. I-90 also goes to Wisconsin from Chicago, in a different direction.
Signing cardinal directions is generally more trouble than it's worth, and any navigational benefit would be exceeded by a more thoughtful implementation of control cities.
My recollection is that "Wisconsin" is only used on the Tri-State Tollway when paired with "Indiana." That makes perfect sense on that stretch of highway.
But at the I-294 interchange with I-90, they pair "Milwaukee" and "Rockford" as the control cities.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 11:41:16 AM
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 11:41:16 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 09:06:33 AMQuote from: Bickendan on June 15, 2021, 06:28:28 AMDoes that require switching to the metric system or not? As much as I like a switch, the US in general seems too lazy to do so.
We should use the international speed limit signs - the red bordered white circle with just the number in it.
No, the UK uses the red circle and MPH.
The problem is you'll run into a bunch of old intransigent engineer types who won't accept an eminently reasonable change like this, because "red on white signs is for prohibition", or "circles are for exceptional hazards like railroad crossings".
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 12:40:18 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 12:40:18 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on June 15, 2021, 06:28:28 AM
the international speed limit signs - the red bordered white circle with just the number in it.
THE international speed limit sign?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Sweden_road_sign_C31-5.svg/120px-Sweden_road_sign_C31-5.svg.png) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Ontario_Rb-1A.svg/80px-Ontario_Rb-1A.svg.png) (https://i.imgur.com/6PEEHUh.png) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/Ireland_road_sign_RUS_043.svg/120px-Ireland_road_sign_RUS_043.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on June 15, 2021, 12:55:34 PM
Post by: vdeane on June 15, 2021, 12:55:34 PM
Plus you know those jokes of people confusing the route number and the speed limit? Imagine how many times that could happen in real life if the speed limit sign were made to look like a route shield - especially in states like New Mexico (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.252163,-107.2712993,3a,39.4y,9.68h,86.9t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1siiW6MXTLHahCQkCBAFPJ8w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DiiW6MXTLHahCQkCBAFPJ8w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D55.82098%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 01:11:57 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 01:11:57 PM
(https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/1/speed-limit-sign-canada-buddy-mays.jpg)
Canada's look like America's.
Canada's look like America's.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 01:35:02 PM
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 01:35:02 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 01:11:57 PM
(https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/1/speed-limit-sign-canada-buddy-mays.jpg)
Canada's look like America's.
The US not shifting to the red circle makes sense to me, but Canada not doing so (especially Quebec) does not. Really think the Australian standard should be adopted.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 01:38:16 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 01:38:16 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 01:35:02 PMMaybe it's because Canada borders America and wants to be consistent.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 01:11:57 PM
(https://images.fineartamerica.com/images/artworkimages/mediumlarge/1/speed-limit-sign-canada-buddy-mays.jpg)
Canada's look like America's.
The US not shifting to the red circle makes sense to me, but Canada not doing so (especially Quebec) does not. Really think the Australian standard should be adopted.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 01:38:44 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 01:38:44 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 01:35:02 PM
The US not shifting to the red circle makes sense to me, but Canada not doing so (especially Quebec) does not.
Why does that make any less sense than the US?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 01:40:21 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 01:40:21 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 01:38:44 PMThe US likes to be different.Quote from: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 01:35:02 PM
The US not shifting to the red circle makes sense to me, but Canada not doing so (especially Quebec) does not.
Why does that make any less sense than the US?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 01:55:16 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 01:55:16 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 01:40:21 PMQuote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 01:38:44 PMQuote from: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 01:35:02 PM
The US not shifting to the red circle makes sense to me, but Canada not doing so (especially Quebec) does not.
Why does that make any less sense than the US?
The US likes to be different.
But not just for the sake of being different–any moreso than other countries. The US doesn't change to some other signage system because there's no benefit in doing so. I likewise don't see how Canada changing to some other signage system would provide any benefit to them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 02:08:55 PM
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 02:08:55 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 01:38:44 PMQuote from: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 01:35:02 PM
The US not shifting to the red circle makes sense to me, but Canada not doing so (especially Quebec) does not.
Why does that make any less sense than the US?
Canada metricated (halfway). There's much more openness to conforming to international standards. Compare that to the US, which developed its own standards, and is resistant to change simply for the sake of conformity.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 02:15:57 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 02:15:57 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 02:08:55 PMQuote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 01:38:44 PMQuote from: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 01:35:02 PM
The US not shifting to the red circle makes sense to me, but Canada not doing so (especially Quebec) does not.
Why does that make any less sense than the US?
Canada metricated (halfway). There's much more openness to conforming to international standards. Compare that to the US, which developed its own standards, and is resistant to change simply for the sake of conformity.
I guess I just don't see speed limit sign conformity as being nearly as advantageous as metrification.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: RobbieL2415 on June 15, 2021, 03:17:21 PM
Post by: RobbieL2415 on June 15, 2021, 03:17:21 PM
Personally, I find UK road signage to be a bit too abstract. The UK uses shapes to denote classification (warning, statutory, prohibitive, etc), whereas the MUTCD is largely color and symbol based.
Like, I know that in the US every warning sign is yellow, every guide sign is green, and every service sign is blue. You would never see one color used for multiple classes.
But, in the UK, it could be a combination of anything. For instance, a blue circle with an arrow pointing left is a directional sign indicating traffic must go left, but a blue square sign could be anything that gives information: a guide sign, a sign indicating a police checkpoint is ahead, or even a sign denoting a parking area.
Like, I know that in the US every warning sign is yellow, every guide sign is green, and every service sign is blue. You would never see one color used for multiple classes.
But, in the UK, it could be a combination of anything. For instance, a blue circle with an arrow pointing left is a directional sign indicating traffic must go left, but a blue square sign could be anything that gives information: a guide sign, a sign indicating a police checkpoint is ahead, or even a sign denoting a parking area.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:20:00 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:20:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 02:15:57 PMI do think that the world should use 1 speed limit sign to avoid confusion across nations.Quote from: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 02:08:55 PMQuote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 01:38:44 PMQuote from: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 01:35:02 PM
The US not shifting to the red circle makes sense to me, but Canada not doing so (especially Quebec) does not.
Why does that make any less sense than the US?
Canada metricated (halfway). There's much more openness to conforming to international standards. Compare that to the US, which developed its own standards, and is resistant to change simply for the sake of conformity.
I guess I just don't see speed limit sign conformity as being nearly as advantageous as metrification.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:22:04 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:22:04 PM
Who's getting confused? Are foreign visitors renting cars in the USA and not knowing what the speed limit is? (I mean, other than really rare cases?)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:25:17 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:25:17 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:22:04 PMWell other signs, like the stop sign, are universal.
Who's getting confused? Are foreign visitors renting cars in the USA and not knowing what the speed limit is? (I mean, other than really rare cases?)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: RobbieL2415 on June 15, 2021, 03:28:16 PM
Post by: RobbieL2415 on June 15, 2021, 03:28:16 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:22:04 PMIf you don't know English and don't know that we use Imperial measurements for highway signs, then maybe.
Who's getting confused? Are foreign visitors renting cars in the USA and not knowing what the speed limit is? (I mean, other than really rare cases?)
That has been a complaint of many -- that the Manual is too English-centric. I've always assumed the goal has been to phase out as much of the word-based signage as possible and replace them with pictograms or symbols.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: RobbieL2415 on June 15, 2021, 03:28:53 PM
Post by: RobbieL2415 on June 15, 2021, 03:28:53 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:25:17 PMYield is too.Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:22:04 PMWell other signs, like the stop sign, are universal.
Who's getting confused? Are foreign visitors renting cars in the USA and not knowing what the speed limit is? (I mean, other than really rare cases?)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:32:41 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:32:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:25:17 PMQuote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:22:04 PM
Who's getting confused? Are foreign visitors renting cars in the USA and not knowing what the speed limit is? (I mean, other than really rare cases?)
Well other signs, like the stop sign, are universal.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Cuban_Stop_Sign.svg/120px-Cuban_Stop_Sign.svg.png) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Japan_road_sign_330-A.svg/120px-Japan_road_sign_330-A.svg.png) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/6.16_Russian_road_sign.svg/120px-6.16_Russian_road_sign.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:33:14 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:33:14 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:32:41 PMThe left and right ones are confusing, the middle one is not.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:25:17 PMQuote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:22:04 PM
Who's getting confused? Are foreign visitors renting cars in the USA and not knowing what the speed limit is? (I mean, other than really rare cases?)
Well other signs, like the stop sign, are universal.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Cuban_Stop_Sign.svg/120px-Cuban_Stop_Sign.svg.png) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Japan_road_sign_330-A.svg/120px-Japan_road_sign_330-A.svg.png) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/6.16_Russian_road_sign.svg/120px-6.16_Russian_road_sign.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:40:42 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:40:42 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:33:14 PMQuote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:32:41 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:25:17 PMQuote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:22:04 PM
Who's getting confused? Are foreign visitors renting cars in the USA and not knowing what the speed limit is? (I mean, other than really rare cases?)
Well other signs, like the stop sign, are universal.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Cuban_Stop_Sign.svg/120px-Cuban_Stop_Sign.svg.png) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Japan_road_sign_330-A.svg/120px-Japan_road_sign_330-A.svg.png) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/6.16_Russian_road_sign.svg/120px-6.16_Russian_road_sign.svg.png)
The left and right ones are confusing, the middle one is not.
1. My point is that stop signs aren't universal.
2. Please explain how the left and right ones are confusing but the middle one is not.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:52:10 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:52:10 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:40:42 PMThe middle one has stop in both the native language and English.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:33:14 PMQuote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:32:41 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:25:17 PMQuote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:22:04 PM
Who's getting confused? Are foreign visitors renting cars in the USA and not knowing what the speed limit is? (I mean, other than really rare cases?)
Well other signs, like the stop sign, are universal.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Cuban_Stop_Sign.svg/120px-Cuban_Stop_Sign.svg.png) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Japan_road_sign_330-A.svg/120px-Japan_road_sign_330-A.svg.png) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/6.16_Russian_road_sign.svg/120px-6.16_Russian_road_sign.svg.png)
The left and right ones are confusing, the middle one is not.
1. My point is that stop signs aren't universal.
2. Please explain how the left and right ones are confusing but the middle one is not.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:54:12 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:54:12 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:52:10 PM
The middle one has stop in both the native language and English.
Why should it need to have English?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 04:11:33 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 04:11:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:54:12 PMIf there are a lot of English speakers in the area it should be in English. That's why I think that using the octagon is a good idea, as people will know it's the stop sign even if they can't read what's on it.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:52:10 PM
The middle one has stop in both the native language and English.
Why should it need to have English?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 04:15:57 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 04:15:57 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 04:11:33 PMQuote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:54:12 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:52:10 PM
The middle one has stop in both the native language and English.
Why should it need to have English?
If there are a lot of English speakers in the area it should be in English. That's why I think that using the octagon is a good idea, as people will know it's the stop sign even if they can't read what's on it.
Then the one on the left isn't confusing, because there aren't a lot of English speakers in Cuba.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcubaianrasquinha.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F2%2F6%2F1%2F9%2F26194973%2F5065199.png&hash=610fa6d8116a3898d088c0b10618be2f0cff5170)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 04:29:42 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 04:29:42 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 04:15:57 PMAlso places with English-speaking tourists.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 04:11:33 PMQuote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:54:12 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 03:52:10 PM
The middle one has stop in both the native language and English.
Why should it need to have English?
If there are a lot of English speakers in the area it should be in English. That's why I think that using the octagon is a good idea, as people will know it's the stop sign even if they can't read what's on it.
Then the one on the left isn't confusing, because there aren't a lot of English speakers in Cuba.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcubaianrasquinha.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F2%2F6%2F1%2F9%2F26194973%2F5065199.png&hash=610fa6d8116a3898d088c0b10618be2f0cff5170)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on June 15, 2021, 04:30:57 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on June 15, 2021, 04:30:57 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 04:29:42 PM
Also places with English-speaking tourists.
How many languages do the signs in New York City need to be in?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 04:33:31 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 04:33:31 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 04:29:42 PM
Also places with English-speaking tourists.
So why just English, then?
Take the Russian sign, which you said is confusing. Why should that have English, considering no English-speaking country even makes the top 15 list of that country's visitors?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 04:33:53 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 04:33:53 PM
Quote from: 1 on June 15, 2021, 04:30:57 PMOne, although I would consider using Spanish in heavily Hispanic areas of America like Miami or south Texas.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 04:29:42 PM
Also places with English-speaking tourists.
How many languages do the signs in New York City need to be in?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on June 15, 2021, 04:41:09 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on June 15, 2021, 04:41:09 PM
The Russian sign says "STOP" in Cyrillic. You don't even need to know any languages using the Cyrillic alphabet; you just need to know what each letter's equivalent is between alphabets.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 04:50:33 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 04:50:33 PM
So, how about this one, which is used in all Spanish-speaking countries in South America (plus the Dominican Republic)?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Chile_road_sign_RPI-2.svg/120px-Chile_road_sign_RPI-2.svg.png)
Or this one, which is used in Mexico and all Spanish-speaking countries in Central America?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Jalisco_TR-1.svg/120px-Jalisco_TR-1.svg.png)
Or this one, which is used in Turkey?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Turkish_Stop_Sign.svg/120px-Turkish_Stop_Sign.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Chile_road_sign_RPI-2.svg/120px-Chile_road_sign_RPI-2.svg.png)
Or this one, which is used in Mexico and all Spanish-speaking countries in Central America?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Jalisco_TR-1.svg/120px-Jalisco_TR-1.svg.png)
Or this one, which is used in Turkey?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Turkish_Stop_Sign.svg/120px-Turkish_Stop_Sign.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 05:01:43 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 05:01:43 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on June 15, 2021, 06:28:28 AM
We should use the international speed limit signs - the red bordered white circle with just the number in it.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/New_Mexico_456.svg/70px-New_Mexico_456.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 05:04:10 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 05:04:10 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 05:01:43 PMSpeed limit 456 lolQuote from: Bickendan on June 15, 2021, 06:28:28 AM
We should use the international speed limit signs - the red bordered white circle with just the number in it.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/New_Mexico_456.svg/70px-New_Mexico_456.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 05:08:23 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 05:08:23 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/New_Mexico_80.svg/240px-New_Mexico_80.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Vienna_Convention_road_sign_C14-V1-80.svg/240px-Vienna_Convention_road_sign_C14-V1-80.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Vienna_Convention_road_sign_C14-V1-80.svg/240px-Vienna_Convention_road_sign_C14-V1-80.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 05:16:57 PM
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 05:16:57 PM
The New Mexico argument is about the stupidest one I see on a regular basis around here. They can just change the sign if it's all that confusing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 15, 2021, 05:19:05 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 15, 2021, 05:19:05 PM
I wouldn't be against changing the speed limit sign. I am just not sure the European one is what I would adapt.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 05:29:53 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 05:29:53 PM
What's the problem with the American sign?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 05:37:14 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 05:37:14 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 05:16:57 PM
The New Mexico argument is about the stupidest one I see on a regular basis around here. They can just change the sign if it's all that confusing.
Why should New Mexico have to change their sign? The zia is an important state symbol and works well as a highway marker.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 05:43:35 PM
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 05:43:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 05:37:14 PMQuote from: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 05:16:57 PM
The New Mexico argument is about the stupidest one I see on a regular basis around here. They can just change the sign if it's all that confusing.
Why should New Mexico have to change their sign? The zia is an important state symbol and works well as a highway marker.
Why should singular states' issues supersede national standards? Otherwise, Caltrans signs would still be black.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 15, 2021, 08:10:07 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 15, 2021, 08:10:07 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 05:29:53 PM
What's the problem with the American sign?
To get rid of the word-based instructions.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 08:25:58 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 08:25:58 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 15, 2021, 08:10:07 PMI think that people know the sign even with reading "speed limit".Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 05:29:53 PM
What's the problem with the American sign?
To get rid of the word-based instructions.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 08:31:03 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 08:31:03 PM
Without any context, would anyone want to take a guess what this sign is?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/China_road_sign_%E7%A4%BA_16%2850%29.svg/100px-China_road_sign_%E7%A4%BA_16%2850%29.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/China_road_sign_%E7%A4%BA_16%2850%29.svg/100px-China_road_sign_%E7%A4%BA_16%2850%29.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 10:01:06 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 10:01:06 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 08:31:03 PMspeed limit
Without any context, would anyone want to take a guess what this sign is?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/China_road_sign_%E7%A4%BA_16%2850%29.svg/100px-China_road_sign_%E7%A4%BA_16%2850%29.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 10:09:24 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 10:09:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 10:01:06 PMnopeQuote from: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 08:31:03 PMspeed limit
Without any context, would anyone want to take a guess what this sign is?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/China_road_sign_%E7%A4%BA_16%2850%29.svg/100px-China_road_sign_%E7%A4%BA_16%2850%29.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 10:30:51 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 10:30:51 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 10:09:24 PMroute sign?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 10:01:06 PMnopeQuote from: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 08:31:03 PMspeed limit
Without any context, would anyone want to take a guess what this sign is?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/China_road_sign_%E7%A4%BA_16%2850%29.svg/100px-China_road_sign_%E7%A4%BA_16%2850%29.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 10:31:22 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 10:31:22 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 10:30:51 PMNot that either. It's the minimum speed sign in China. You can see an issue with wordless signs here that are not universally used (like the red circle speed limit sign) for someone new to an area here.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 10:09:24 PMroute sign?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 10:01:06 PMnopeQuote from: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 08:31:03 PMspeed limit
Without any context, would anyone want to take a guess what this sign is?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/China_road_sign_%E7%A4%BA_16%2850%29.svg/100px-China_road_sign_%E7%A4%BA_16%2850%29.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 10:46:13 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 10:46:13 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 10:31:22 PMI do think that words should be on road signs.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 10:30:51 PMNot that either. It's the minimum speed sign in China. You can see an issue with wordless signs here that are not universally used (like the red circle speed limit sign) for someone new to an area here.Quote from: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 10:09:24 PMroute sign?Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 10:01:06 PMnopeQuote from: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 08:31:03 PMspeed limit
Without any context, would anyone want to take a guess what this sign is?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/China_road_sign_%E7%A4%BA_16%2850%29.svg/100px-China_road_sign_%E7%A4%BA_16%2850%29.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: RobbieL2415 on June 16, 2021, 07:24:57 AM
Post by: RobbieL2415 on June 16, 2021, 07:24:57 AM
How is anyone not from the UK or the EU supposed to know (without a description plate) that this means "no motor vehicles"?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/UK_traffic_sign_619.1.svg/1024px-UK_traffic_sign_619.1.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/UK_traffic_sign_619.1.svg/1024px-UK_traffic_sign_619.1.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on June 16, 2021, 09:06:14 AM
Post by: hotdogPi on June 16, 2021, 09:06:14 AM
A good sign with no words would say "50-80", with 80 as an example of the maximum speed.
Probably not dark blue, though; I thought it was a night limit.
Probably not dark blue, though; I thought it was a night limit.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: D-Dey65 on June 16, 2021, 09:12:05 AM
Post by: D-Dey65 on June 16, 2021, 09:12:05 AM
Quote from: 1 on June 15, 2021, 04:30:57 PMThey already have some street name signs in Korean and some Chinese language(s).Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 04:29:42 PM
Also places with English-speaking tourists.
How many languages do the signs in New York City need to be in?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on June 16, 2021, 09:14:29 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 16, 2021, 09:14:29 AM
Quote from: 1 on June 16, 2021, 09:06:14 AMThe minimum speed sign is probably more understandable to people that never seen it before seeing it in context, next to a speed limit sign, like here:
A good sign with no words would say "50-80", with 80 as an example of the maximum speed.
Probably not dark blue, though; I thought it was a night limit.
(https://i.imgur.com/P6ffTPj.png?1)
As for the night limit, I could see how that would be an interpretation for it. Though going from 100 km/h to 60 km/h seem like a big drop, if it is a night limit.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on June 16, 2021, 09:18:27 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 16, 2021, 09:18:27 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 16, 2021, 07:24:57 AMDoes simply adding a diagonal line make the sign more understandable, like this one?
How is anyone not from the UK or the EU supposed to know (without a description plate) that this means "no motor vehicles"?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/UK_traffic_sign_619.1.svg/1024px-UK_traffic_sign_619.1.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/China_road_sign_%E7%A6%81_6.svg/150px-China_road_sign_%E7%A6%81_6.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: RobbieL2415 on June 16, 2021, 09:44:03 AM
Post by: RobbieL2415 on June 16, 2021, 09:44:03 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 16, 2021, 09:18:27 AMYes. To me without the slash, the sign is a warning sign indicating "vehicles ahead".Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 16, 2021, 07:24:57 AMDoes simply adding a diagonal line make the sign more understandable, like this one?
How is anyone not from the UK or the EU supposed to know (without a description plate) that this means "no motor vehicles"?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/UK_traffic_sign_619.1.svg/1024px-UK_traffic_sign_619.1.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/China_road_sign_%E7%A6%81_6.svg/150px-China_road_sign_%E7%A6%81_6.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 16, 2021, 12:28:11 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 16, 2021, 12:28:11 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 16, 2021, 09:14:29 AMI can now understand that it's the minimum speed limit.Quote from: 1 on June 16, 2021, 09:06:14 AMThe minimum speed sign is probably more understandable to people that never seen it before seeing it in context, next to a speed limit sign, like here:
A good sign with no words would say "50-80", with 80 as an example of the maximum speed.
Probably not dark blue, though; I thought it was a night limit.
(https://i.imgur.com/P6ffTPj.png?1)
As for the night limit, I could see how that would be an interpretation for it. Though going from 100 km/h to 60 km/h seem like a big drop, if it is a night limit.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 16, 2021, 12:57:28 PM
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 16, 2021, 12:57:28 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 08:25:58 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on June 15, 2021, 08:10:07 PMI think that people know the sign even with reading "speed limit".Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 05:29:53 PM
What's the problem with the American sign?
To get rid of the word-based instructions.
I've always thought a modified version of the Australian signs would be the best solution in North America:
(https://motorbikewriter.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/northern_territory_130kmh_sign_01-1015.jpg)
You could just add "MPH" or "km/h" at the bottom to make it unambiguous that this is a speed limit sign, and "Maximum" at the top if legally required.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kurumi on June 16, 2021, 01:27:29 PM
Post by: kurumi on June 16, 2021, 01:27:29 PM
For rock n roll fans worldwide, a purely pictorial sign would get the message across:
(https://i.imgur.com/cSoQ1z7.jpg)
(text cropping is a little weird; probably MacOS Preview doesn't understand italic bounding box)
Semi-related unpopular road-related opinions:
* Van Hagar was no good
* 80s hair metal in general was ehhh
* "Can't drive 55" is a banger though
* It's surprising how many classic VH hits were covers. Imagine a band with Eddie's talent and great songwriting
(https://i.imgur.com/cSoQ1z7.jpg)
(text cropping is a little weird; probably MacOS Preview doesn't understand italic bounding box)
Semi-related unpopular road-related opinions:
* Van Hagar was no good
* 80s hair metal in general was ehhh
* "Can't drive 55" is a banger though
* It's surprising how many classic VH hits were covers. Imagine a band with Eddie's talent and great songwriting
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 16, 2021, 01:36:42 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 16, 2021, 01:36:42 PM
Quote from: kurumi on June 16, 2021, 01:27:29 PM
For rock n roll fans worldwide, a purely pictorial sign would get the message across:
(https://i.imgur.com/cSoQ1z7.jpg)
(text cropping is a little weird; probably MacOS Preview doesn't understand italic bounding box)
Semi-related unpopular road-related opinions:
* Van Hagar was no good
* 80s hair metal in general was ehhh
* "Can't drive 55" is a banger though
* It's surprising how many classic VH hits were covers. Imagine a band with Eddie's talent and great songwriting
VH's albums were always good for a couple of excellent songs....and a whole lotta trash.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 16, 2021, 01:37:38 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 16, 2021, 01:37:38 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on June 16, 2021, 12:57:28 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 08:25:58 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on June 15, 2021, 08:10:07 PMI think that people know the sign even with reading "speed limit".Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 05:29:53 PM
What's the problem with the American sign?
To get rid of the word-based instructions.
I've always thought a modified version of the Australian signs would be the best solution in North America:
(https://motorbikewriter.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/northern_territory_130kmh_sign_01-1015.jpg)
You could just add "MPH" or "km/h" at the bottom to make it unambiguous that this is a speed limit sign, and "Maximum" at the top if legally required.
Good idea. I think the addition of "MPH" would make this much better.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 16, 2021, 01:46:08 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 16, 2021, 01:46:08 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on June 16, 2021, 12:57:28 PMMPH? Seems a bit high...Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 08:25:58 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on June 15, 2021, 08:10:07 PMI think that people know the sign even with reading "speed limit".Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 15, 2021, 05:29:53 PM
What's the problem with the American sign?
To get rid of the word-based instructions.
I've always thought a modified version of the Australian signs would be the best solution in North America:
(https://motorbikewriter.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/northern_territory_130kmh_sign_01-1015.jpg)
You could just add "MPH" or "km/h" at the bottom to make it unambiguous that this is a speed limit sign, and "Maximum" at the top if legally required.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on June 16, 2021, 01:50:01 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 16, 2021, 01:50:01 PM
Quote from: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 05:43:35 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 05:37:14 PMQuote from: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 05:16:57 PM
The New Mexico argument is about the stupidest one I see on a regular basis around here. They can just change the sign if it's all that confusing.
Why should New Mexico have to change their sign? The zia is an important state symbol and works well as a highway marker.
Why should singular states' issues supersede national standards? Otherwise, Caltrans signs would still be black.
Why should we adopt a new national standard that conflicts with an already-existing state standard?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 16, 2021, 01:55:20 PM
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 16, 2021, 01:55:20 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 16, 2021, 01:50:01 PMQuote from: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 05:43:35 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on June 15, 2021, 05:37:14 PMQuote from: TXtoNJ on June 15, 2021, 05:16:57 PM
The New Mexico argument is about the stupidest one I see on a regular basis around here. They can just change the sign if it's all that confusing.
Why should New Mexico have to change their sign? The zia is an important state symbol and works well as a highway marker.
Why should singular states' issues supersede national standards? Otherwise, Caltrans signs would still be black.
Why should we adopt a new national standard that conflicts with an already-existing state standard?
Reduced ambiguity for non-English speakers. International coordination, especially since it's the standard in Latin America. Not being typical obstinate Americans. Etc...
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on June 16, 2021, 02:07:22 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 16, 2021, 02:07:22 PM
The metric speed limit sign from the 2004 SHS looked like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/8YcbxN7.png)
Change the circle to red and you have a sign that conforms both to international and US expectations.
(https://i.imgur.com/8YcbxN7.png)
Change the circle to red and you have a sign that conforms both to international and US expectations.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CoreySamson on June 16, 2021, 02:11:25 PM
Post by: CoreySamson on June 16, 2021, 02:11:25 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 16, 2021, 01:37:38 PMYeah ditto about the addition of "MPH". My big problem with it, though, is that the color red in American signage signifies "stop" or "prohibited". What Scott just posted I find nearly perfect; I would just remove the words "SPEED LIMIT".Quote from: TXtoNJ on June 16, 2021, 12:57:28 PM
I've always thought a modified version of the Australian signs would be the best solution in North America:
(https://motorbikewriter.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/northern_territory_130kmh_sign_01-1015.jpg)
You could just add "MPH" or "km/h" at the bottom to make it unambiguous that this is a speed limit sign, and "Maximum" at the top if legally required.
Good idea. I think the addition of "MPH" would make this much better.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 16, 2021, 02:18:49 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 16, 2021, 02:18:49 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on June 16, 2021, 02:11:25 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on June 16, 2021, 01:37:38 PMYeah ditto about the addition of "MPH". My big problem with it, though, is that the color red in American signage signifies "stop" or "prohibited". What Scott just posted I find nearly perfect; I would just remove the words "SPEED LIMIT".Quote from: TXtoNJ on June 16, 2021, 12:57:28 PM
I've always thought a modified version of the Australian signs would be the best solution in North America:
(https://motorbikewriter.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/northern_territory_130kmh_sign_01-1015.jpg)
You could just add "MPH" or "km/h" at the bottom to make it unambiguous that this is a speed limit sign, and "Maximum" at the top if legally required.
Good idea. I think the addition of "MPH" would make this much better.
Make the circle green then.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on June 16, 2021, 02:23:59 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 16, 2021, 02:23:59 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on June 16, 2021, 02:11:25 PM
Yeah ditto about the addition of "MPH". My big problem with it, though, is that the color red in American signage signifies "stop" or "prohibited". What Scott just posted I find nearly perfect; I would just remove the words "SPEED LIMIT".
The words "speed limit" are what makes it clear, though.
All symbol signage in the United States is a simplified drawing of something in real life. That means you can still get the gist of a symbol sign even if you've never seen it before. The merge sign is two vertical lines joining to form one arrow like two rows of cars must join together when merging. Stop ahead is a depiction of a stop sign with an arrow pointing upward denoting that there is one ahead. Slippery road shows a car with lines under the tires depicting it sliding around, and so on. When symbol signs are newly introduced, they are often accompanied with "educational plaques" that say what they mean in English for those who can't recognize the symbol yet.
Unlike most symbol signs, there is nothing inherent about a red circle that means "speed limit". It is an arbitrary symbol, and, divorced from its original context of "red circles mean things you can't do", which is not an system the United States uses, it is even more arbitrary. If you don't just already know from studying other countries' sign books–which is not something anyone does unless they're planning to visit that country–you can stare at a number in a red circle for hours and never get anywhere close to the intended meaning.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: RobbieL2415 on June 16, 2021, 02:26:53 PM
Post by: RobbieL2415 on June 16, 2021, 02:26:53 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on June 16, 2021, 02:11:25 PMHence why I find most non-North American signage to be confusing. There's a lack of uniformity. The Manual is just more intuitive:Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 16, 2021, 01:37:38 PMYeah ditto about the addition of "MPH". My big problem with it, though, is that the color red in American signage signifies "stop" or "prohibited". What Scott just posted I find nearly perfect; I would just remove the words "SPEED LIMIT".Quote from: TXtoNJ on June 16, 2021, 12:57:28 PM
I've always thought a modified version of the Australian signs would be the best solution in North America:
(https://motorbikewriter.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/northern_territory_130kmh_sign_01-1015.jpg)
You could just add "MPH" or "km/h" at the bottom to make it unambiguous that this is a speed limit sign, and "Maximum" at the top if legally required.
Good idea. I think the addition of "MPH" would make this much better.
All the Colors have their place:
Red - Stop/prohibitory
Yellow - Warning
White - Statutory/directional
Green - Guidance
Blue - Services/attractions
Brown - Recreation/historical
Orange - Road work
Purple - Toll road
Pink - Civil defense
It seems to me that other countries just throw caution to the wind.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on June 16, 2021, 02:36:16 PM
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on June 16, 2021, 02:36:16 PM
IMO guidance sign colors should be different depending on the highway being a freeway or a regular road. Like it is done in Europe. If there's an Interstate shield I know it's going to be a freeway (except I-180 WY), but otherwise there's no way to tell beforehand if one is about to get into a freeway or a goat track.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on June 16, 2021, 02:38:52 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 16, 2021, 02:38:52 PM
I sort of like how (mainland) China does their signage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_China). Theirs is inspired from three places: the EU, Japan and the US, with similar color designations as the US.
Yellow: Warning
Red: Prohibitory
Brown: Recreation
Orange: Road work
The differences are with Blue and Green signs. In China, green guide signs are used for freeways only, and used on everything on a freeway (yes, including the services, normally indicated with blue in the US). Blue signs are used on non-freeways, with turn lanes signage, distance signage, BBS for income intersections, roundabounts or possible interchanges, and services.
Yellow: Warning
Red: Prohibitory
Brown: Recreation
Orange: Road work
The differences are with Blue and Green signs. In China, green guide signs are used for freeways only, and used on everything on a freeway (yes, including the services, normally indicated with blue in the US). Blue signs are used on non-freeways, with turn lanes signage, distance signage, BBS for income intersections, roundabounts or possible interchanges, and services.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: andrepoiy on June 16, 2021, 02:50:28 PM
Post by: andrepoiy on June 16, 2021, 02:50:28 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 15, 2021, 03:28:16 PM
That has been a complaint of many -- that the Manual is too English-centric. I've always assumed the goal has been to phase out as much of the word-based signage as possible and replace them with pictograms or symbols.
There's a reason why Quebec tends to try to use symbols as much as they can
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on June 16, 2021, 04:33:17 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 16, 2021, 04:33:17 PM
I think part of the problem is that a red circle without a slash mark has no common meaning in US signage. Or am I mistaken about that? Are there any US signs that feature a red circle with no slash mark? I'm not aware of any. On the other hand, white rectangles do have a common meaning in US signage: they are regulatory signs.
In other countries, though, it has a meaning. For example, in Mexico, a red circle with a slash mark means something is prohibited, whereas a red circle without a slash mark means something is restricted. Take a look at the two signs below to see what I mean. The one on the left means "U-turns prohibited", and the one on the right means "U-turns permitted at this location/in this lane".
(https://i.imgur.com/okXVqfz.jpg)
Thus, in the US, a number in a red circle doesn't have the obvious meaning of "your speed is restricted to this number or less" or "exceeding the speed indicated by this number is prohibited".
In other countries, though, it has a meaning. For example, in Mexico, a red circle with a slash mark means something is prohibited, whereas a red circle without a slash mark means something is restricted. Take a look at the two signs below to see what I mean. The one on the left means "U-turns prohibited", and the one on the right means "U-turns permitted at this location/in this lane".
(https://i.imgur.com/okXVqfz.jpg)
Thus, in the US, a number in a red circle doesn't have the obvious meaning of "your speed is restricted to this number or less" or "exceeding the speed indicated by this number is prohibited".
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 16, 2021, 04:50:42 PM
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 16, 2021, 04:50:42 PM
Seems like the red circle within a white box for restrictions would be a useful addition, especially if it could replace a lot of text-heavy restricted signs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on June 16, 2021, 07:06:40 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 16, 2021, 07:06:40 PM
Not sure how common this is in the country; there's a U-turn allowed sign in my area that uses a green circle with the U-turn symbol inside (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2504764,-84.3750181,3a,22.9y,134.59h,89.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sg8gvTxHVlB2FxY38xNZ69A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), and I actually like it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on June 16, 2021, 07:13:10 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 16, 2021, 07:13:10 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 16, 2021, 04:33:17 PM
I think part of the problem is that a red circle without a slash mark has no common meaning in US signage. Or am I mistaken about that? Are there any US signs that feature a red circle with no slash mark? I'm not aware of any. On the other hand, white rectangles do have a common meaning in US signage: they are regulatory signs.
In other countries, though, it has a meaning. For example, in Mexico, a red circle with a slash mark means something is prohibited, whereas a red circle without a slash mark means something is restricted. Take a look at the two signs below to see what I mean. The one on the left means "U-turns prohibited", and the one on the right means "U-turns permitted at this location/in this lane".
(https://i.imgur.com/okXVqfz.jpg)
Thus, in the US, a number in a red circle doesn't have the obvious meaning of "your speed is restricted to this number or less" or "exceeding the speed indicated by this number is prohibited".
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 16, 2021, 07:06:40 PM
Not sure how common this is in the country; there's a U-turn allowed sign in my area that uses a green circle with the U-turn symbol inside (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2504764,-84.3750181,3a,22.9y,134.59h,89.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sg8gvTxHVlB2FxY38xNZ69A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), and I actually like it.
Yes, there is already precedent for using green circles on US signs. It doesn't quite mean "restricted" in the same way that a speed limit sign does, but it's close.
(https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/images/fig2b_30.gif)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on June 16, 2021, 07:21:55 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 16, 2021, 07:21:55 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/FzaTqAa.png)
?
?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 16, 2021, 07:27:07 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 16, 2021, 07:27:07 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 16, 2021, 07:21:55 PMThat's a speed limit sign duh.(https://i.imgur.com/FzaTqAa.png)
?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on June 16, 2021, 07:59:16 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on June 16, 2021, 07:59:16 PM
Green circle isn't unambiguous. In this photo (Quebec City), it means you must follow it, although this particular sign is redundant.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48298766287_d4ae15f37e_k.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48298766287_d4ae15f37e_k.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on June 16, 2021, 08:29:29 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on June 16, 2021, 08:29:29 PM
There might be some confusion, but if you were to misinterpret (green circle) (80 mph) as "you must do 80 mph", you at least aren't going to be violating any laws.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on June 16, 2021, 08:34:09 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on June 16, 2021, 08:34:09 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 16, 2021, 08:29:29 PMI could see some interpret it as "80 mph (or km/h) or above" , like a minimum speed sign.
There might be some confusion, but if you were to misinterpret (green circle) (80 mph) as "you must do 80 mph", you at least aren't going to be violating any laws.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: RobbieL2415 on June 17, 2021, 06:33:01 AM
Post by: RobbieL2415 on June 17, 2021, 06:33:01 AM
Quote from: kphoger on June 16, 2021, 04:33:17 PMNow, imagine if the "no going straight" version of this sign didn't have the slash. Think of all the confusion that would cause, and you'll see why prohibitive signs that are just a red circle make no sense.
I think part of the problem is that a red circle without a slash mark has no common meaning in US signage. Or am I mistaken about that? Are there any US signs that feature a red circle with no slash mark? I'm not aware of any. On the other hand, white rectangles do have a common meaning in US signage: they are regulatory signs.
In other countries, though, it has a meaning. For example, in Mexico, a red circle with a slash mark means something is prohibited, whereas a red circle without a slash mark means something is restricted. Take a look at the two signs below to see what I mean. The one on the left means "U-turns prohibited", and the one on the right means "U-turns permitted at this location/in this lane".
(https://i.imgur.com/okXVqfz.jpg)
Thus, in the US, a number in a red circle doesn't have the obvious meaning of "your speed is restricted to this number or less" or "exceeding the speed indicated by this number is prohibited".
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 17, 2021, 08:47:19 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on June 17, 2021, 08:47:19 AM
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on June 17, 2021, 01:10:26 PM
Post by: kphoger on June 17, 2021, 01:10:26 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 17, 2021, 06:33:01 AM
Now, imagine if the "no going straight" version of this sign didn't have the slash. Think of all the confusion that would cause, and you'll see why prohibitive signs that are just a red circle make no sense.
In Mexico, a right curving arrow in a red circle means you can turn right at a red light without stopping, so long as you yield to cross traffic and pedestrians first.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 01:26:30 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on June 17, 2021, 01:26:30 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 16, 2021, 08:34:09 PMEh I doubt it unless a sign with a higher number was included.Quote from: Scott5114 on June 16, 2021, 08:29:29 PMI could see some interpret it as "80 mph (or km/h) or above" , like a minimum speed sign.
There might be some confusion, but if you were to misinterpret (green circle) (80 mph) as "you must do 80 mph", you at least aren't going to be violating any laws.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 17, 2021, 02:25:32 PM
Post by: TXtoNJ on June 17, 2021, 02:25:32 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 17, 2021, 06:33:01 AMQuote from: kphoger on June 16, 2021, 04:33:17 PMNow, imagine if the "no going straight" version of this sign didn't have the slash. Think of all the confusion that would cause, and you'll see why prohibitive signs that are just a red circle make no sense.
I think part of the problem is that a red circle without a slash mark has no common meaning in US signage. Or am I mistaken about that? Are there any US signs that feature a red circle with no slash mark? I'm not aware of any. On the other hand, white rectangles do have a common meaning in US signage: they are regulatory signs.
In other countries, though, it has a meaning. For example, in Mexico, a red circle with a slash mark means something is prohibited, whereas a red circle without a slash mark means something is restricted. Take a look at the two signs below to see what I mean. The one on the left means "U-turns prohibited", and the one on the right means "U-turns permitted at this location/in this lane".
(https://i.imgur.com/okXVqfz.jpg)
Thus, in the US, a number in a red circle doesn't have the obvious meaning of "your speed is restricted to this number or less" or "exceeding the speed indicated by this number is prohibited".
A red circle without a slash would indicate "straight only", it would replace the "NO TURNS" sign.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: thenetwork on June 17, 2021, 07:17:29 PM
Post by: thenetwork on June 17, 2021, 07:17:29 PM
Signalized intersections that still run cycles on old timing mechanisms that are not in synch with other signalized intersections in the area -- or intersections where the actuators are broken and you have to sit and wait for the full "default" cycle when no vehicles are present.
Either way, the signal is not running at it's most efficient potential as far as controlling active traffic patterns.
Either way, the signal is not running at it's most efficient potential as far as controlling active traffic patterns.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on June 17, 2021, 07:21:29 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on June 17, 2021, 07:21:29 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on June 17, 2021, 07:17:29 PM
Signalized intersections that still run cycles on old timing mechanisms that are not in synch with other signalized intersections in the area -- or intersections where the actuators are broken and you have to sit and wait for the full "default" cycle when no vehicles are present.
Either way, the signal is not running at it's most efficient potential as far as controlling active traffic patterns.
Did you mean to post this in the "minor things that bother you" thread?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on June 19, 2021, 08:48:45 AM
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on June 19, 2021, 08:48:45 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 15, 2021, 08:31:03 PM
Without any context, would anyone want to take a guess what this sign is?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/China_road_sign_%E7%A4%BA_16%2850%29.svg/100px-China_road_sign_%E7%A4%BA_16%2850%29.svg.png)
this sign is nearly finished loading...
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: wphiii on July 14, 2021, 03:38:16 PM
Post by: wphiii on July 14, 2021, 03:38:16 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 03:04:36 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 26, 2021, 01:17:52 PM
The overwhelming majority of freeways are boring to drive on.
So are the overwhelming majority of conventional roads, for that matter. The argument for conventional roads is you get to "see more", by which they usually mean more small towns. Small towns are more or less interchangeable and have nothing unique to them that isn't a historic event (which probably isn't going on while you're passing through on the state highway) or some local business (sure, Nellie's Diner makes fantastic fried chicken, but so does Glenda's Diner in a town about the same size that's 50 miles down the road, and about 20 different restaurants in an actual city).
And let's face it, when you're on a trip, you don't have the time to stop in every single small town and learn all about the Oak Resin Rebellion of 1917 (when Jeridida Sawfunkler climbed the grain elevator and declared "No man should have to parallel park on the streets of Goltry!"), or which of the anonymous historic buildings on Main Street (or is it Broadway?) makes the best fried paperclips, or whatever. Most of them are just going to represent a 25 mph zone in between two 65 mph zones that you have to slow down for as you make your way through the historic downtown that will look exactly like the historic downtown of the next 25 mph zone you will encounter eighteen miles down the road.
Freeways at least give you the opportunity to cover distance so you get to actually interesting places faster.
Horses for course and all that, but in my experience it's a mistake to be so sure you know ahead of time what the "actually interesting" places are. That, to me, is the real excitement of taking surface roads vs. an Interstate; sure, not every town is going to stand out in some way, but there are enough that do–whether that's due to its terrain, or layout, or some unexpected architecture, or some attraction or business or amenity–that the sheer serendipity of the thing makes avoiding the freeway well worth it.
And I'd even go a step further and suggest that your own experience is what ends up making a place "interesting." Like you said, most people aren't going to stop every 15 miles to explore every single little Main Street community, but you did stop in that particular one for whatever reason, maybe the courthouse caught your eye, or something just felt right, and so you happened to eat at Nellie's (possibly for the only time you ever will) instead of Glenda's, and those kinds of things form a unique personal travelogue that controlled access freeways just can't replicate.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kernals12 on July 15, 2021, 10:57:03 PM
Post by: kernals12 on July 15, 2021, 10:57:03 PM
Michigan Lefts should be the standard design for new major arterial streets. It is such a gobsmackingly simple and low cost way to reduce congestion and improve safety that I am staggered it's not everywhere. As a bonus, it requires the use of a landscaped median which can be used for stormwater drainage and for aesthetics.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on July 16, 2021, 06:30:01 AM
Post by: hotdogPi on July 16, 2021, 06:30:01 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on July 15, 2021, 10:57:03 PM
Michigan Lefts should be the standard design for new major arterial streets. It is such a gobsmackingly simple and low cost way to reduce congestion and improve safety that I am staggered it's not everywhere. As a bonus, it requires the use of a landscaped median which can be used for stormwater drainage and for aesthetics.
If there's space. In the Boston area, you probably can't build things that wide. However, there are other ways to ban left turns,.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kernals12 on July 16, 2021, 06:35:57 AM
Post by: kernals12 on July 16, 2021, 06:35:57 AM
Quote from: 1 on July 16, 2021, 06:30:01 AMQuote from: kernals12 on July 15, 2021, 10:57:03 PM
Michigan Lefts should be the standard design for new major arterial streets. It is such a gobsmackingly simple and low cost way to reduce congestion and improve safety that I am staggered it's not everywhere. As a bonus, it requires the use of a landscaped median which can be used for stormwater drainage and for aesthetics.
If there's space. In the Boston area, you probably can't build things that wide. However, there are other ways to ban left turns,.
But when you're building a brand new arterial on undeveloped land...
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jamess on July 16, 2021, 09:01:09 AM
Post by: jamess on July 16, 2021, 09:01:09 AM
Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 04:50:33 PM
So, how about this one, which is used in all Spanish-speaking countries in South America (plus the Dominican Republic)?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Chile_road_sign_RPI-2.svg/120px-Chile_road_sign_RPI-2.svg.png)
Or this one, which is used in Mexico and all Spanish-speaking countries in Central America?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Jalisco_TR-1.svg/120px-Jalisco_TR-1.svg.png)
Or this one, which is used in Turkey?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Turkish_Stop_Sign.svg/120px-Turkish_Stop_Sign.svg.png)
Puerto Rico uses Pare
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on July 16, 2021, 09:52:13 AM
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on July 16, 2021, 09:52:13 AM
Clearly Spain is the only Spanish-speaking country to use "Stop" in their Stop signs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on July 20, 2021, 11:59:44 AM
Post by: kphoger on July 20, 2021, 11:59:44 AM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on July 16, 2021, 09:52:13 AM
Clearly Spain is the only Spanish-speaking country to use "Stop" in their Stop signs.
https://lightworld.okstate.edu/signs
(https://i.imgur.com/7ccRPii.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on July 20, 2021, 12:42:09 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on July 20, 2021, 12:42:09 PM
Quote from: wphiii on July 14, 2021, 03:38:16 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 03:04:36 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 26, 2021, 01:17:52 PM
The overwhelming majority of freeways are boring to drive on.
So are the overwhelming majority of conventional roads, for that matter. The argument for conventional roads is you get to "see more", by which they usually mean more small towns. Small towns are more or less interchangeable and have nothing unique to them that isn't a historic event (which probably isn't going on while you're passing through on the state highway) or some local business (sure, Nellie's Diner makes fantastic fried chicken, but so does Glenda's Diner in a town about the same size that's 50 miles down the road, and about 20 different restaurants in an actual city).
And let's face it, when you're on a trip, you don't have the time to stop in every single small town and learn all about the Oak Resin Rebellion of 1917 (when Jeridida Sawfunkler climbed the grain elevator and declared "No man should have to parallel park on the streets of Goltry!"), or which of the anonymous historic buildings on Main Street (or is it Broadway?) makes the best fried paperclips, or whatever. Most of them are just going to represent a 25 mph zone in between two 65 mph zones that you have to slow down for as you make your way through the historic downtown that will look exactly like the historic downtown of the next 25 mph zone you will encounter eighteen miles down the road.
Freeways at least give you the opportunity to cover distance so you get to actually interesting places faster.
Horses for course and all that, but in my experience it's a mistake to be so sure you know ahead of time what the "actually interesting" places are. That, to me, is the real excitement of taking surface roads vs. an Interstate; sure, not every town is going to stand out in some way, but there are enough that do–whether that's due to its terrain, or layout, or some unexpected architecture, or some attraction or business or amenity–that the sheer serendipity of the thing makes avoiding the freeway well worth it.
And I'd even go a step further and suggest that your own experience is what ends up making a place "interesting." Like you said, most people aren't going to stop every 15 miles to explore every single little Main Street community, but you did stop in that particular one for whatever reason, maybe the courthouse caught your eye, or something just felt right, and so you happened to eat at Nellie's (possibly for the only time you ever will) instead of Glenda's, and those kinds of things form a unique personal travelogue that controlled access freeways just can't replicate.
I don't stop at any small town, really. I grew up in one, I know exactly how boring they really are and so I really don't have much interest in them even on a theoretical level–the uniqueness is a mirage that vanishes the closer you get to it. The courthouse might be architecturally interesting looking from the outside, but on the inside it contains county clerks doing the same administrative functions that the county clerks in Cleveland County are doing, just less of them, probably. Nellie's might have the best fried chicken ever, but it might also be legendarily awful, and the only reason Nellie's stays in business might be because it's the only full-service restaurant within 30 minutes from any direction and the locals haven't ever actually had good food.
I dunno. I'm not in the roadtrip business to screw around with little towns and their identity issues. I'm out there to mark counties off my mob-rule, roads off my Travel Mapping, and take pictures of road signs. The most efficient way to do all three of those is by freeway. If I'm in a small town it's because I needed to mark a county or take a picture of a road sign that wasn't on a freeway, or I'm trying to clinch something that isn't an Interstate.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on July 20, 2021, 01:57:31 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on July 20, 2021, 01:57:31 PM
Quote from: jamess on July 16, 2021, 09:01:09 AMQuote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 04:50:33 PM
So, how about this one, which is used in all Spanish-speaking countries in South America (plus the Dominican Republic)?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Chile_road_sign_RPI-2.svg/120px-Chile_road_sign_RPI-2.svg.png)
Or this one, which is used in Mexico and all Spanish-speaking countries in Central America?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Jalisco_TR-1.svg/120px-Jalisco_TR-1.svg.png)
Or this one, which is used in Turkey?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Turkish_Stop_Sign.svg/120px-Turkish_Stop_Sign.svg.png)
Puerto Rico uses Pare
The stop sign is so commonly used around the world that I think it would be best to delanguagify it, perhaps with something along these lines:
(https://i.imgur.com/pvD6cVz.png)
Admittedly, there's no way the whole world would be okay with using a left hand on the sign instead of a right hand, but I can dream.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 20, 2021, 02:42:13 PM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 20, 2021, 02:42:13 PM
(https://image.shutterstock.com/image-vector/vector-blank-traffic-sign-red-260nw-1035002347.jpg)
IMO this is enough for an all language stop sign
IMO this is enough for an all language stop sign
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on July 20, 2021, 03:51:59 PM
Post by: kphoger on July 20, 2021, 03:51:59 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 20, 2021, 02:42:13 PM
(https://image.shutterstock.com/image-vector/vector-blank-traffic-sign-red-260nw-1035002347.jpg)
IMO this is enough for an all language stop sign
Not the best for countries that don't use octagons.
Quote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 03:32:41 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Cuban_Stop_Sign.svg/120px-Cuban_Stop_Sign.svg.png) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Japan_road_sign_330-A.svg/120px-Japan_road_sign_330-A.svg.png) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/6.16_Russian_road_sign.svg/120px-6.16_Russian_road_sign.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TXtoNJ on July 20, 2021, 04:30:09 PM
Post by: TXtoNJ on July 20, 2021, 04:30:09 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on July 20, 2021, 01:57:31 PMQuote from: jamess on July 16, 2021, 09:01:09 AMQuote from: kphoger on June 15, 2021, 04:50:33 PM
So, how about this one, which is used in all Spanish-speaking countries in South America (plus the Dominican Republic)?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Chile_road_sign_RPI-2.svg/120px-Chile_road_sign_RPI-2.svg.png)
Or this one, which is used in Mexico and all Spanish-speaking countries in Central America?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Jalisco_TR-1.svg/120px-Jalisco_TR-1.svg.png)
Or this one, which is used in Turkey?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Turkish_Stop_Sign.svg/120px-Turkish_Stop_Sign.svg.png)
Puerto Rico uses Pare
The stop sign is so commonly used around the world that I think it would be best to delanguagify it, perhaps with something along these lines:
(https://i.imgur.com/pvD6cVz.png)
Admittedly, there's no way the whole world would be okay with using a left hand on the sign instead of a right hand, but I can dream.
Israel uses the right hand for understandable reasons.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on July 20, 2021, 06:49:51 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on July 20, 2021, 06:49:51 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 20, 2021, 02:42:13 PM
(https://image.shutterstock.com/image-vector/vector-blank-traffic-sign-red-260nw-1035002347.jpg)
IMO this is enough for an all language stop sign
Are there any commonly used signs with no legend or imagery? I suppose I'd get used to it, but it definitely seems like something's missing there.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on July 20, 2021, 07:02:03 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on July 20, 2021, 07:02:03 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on July 20, 2021, 06:49:51 PMI found this when looking through a list of road signs in ChinaQuote from: Roadgeekteen on July 20, 2021, 02:42:13 PM
(https://image.shutterstock.com/image-vector/vector-blank-traffic-sign-red-260nw-1035002347.jpg)
IMO this is enough for an all language stop sign
Are there any commonly used signs with no legend or imagery? I suppose I'd get used to it, but it definitely seems like something's missing there.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/China_road_sign_%E7%A6%81_4.svg/800px-China_road_sign_%E7%A6%81_4.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on July 21, 2021, 07:22:28 AM
Post by: formulanone on July 21, 2021, 07:22:28 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on July 20, 2021, 06:49:51 PM
Are there any commonly used signs with no legend or imagery? I suppose I'd get used to it, but it definitely seems like something's missing there.
Types 1-4 object markers are used generically, though usually for a range of purposes.
OM1-3 is a pretty good example; no buttons nor stripes on it.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51014269535_1e3a385595_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kHXt2i)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on July 21, 2021, 11:37:13 AM
Post by: kphoger on July 21, 2021, 11:37:13 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 20, 2021, 07:02:03 PMQuote from: CtrlAltDel on July 20, 2021, 06:49:51 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on July 20, 2021, 02:42:13 PM
(https://image.shutterstock.com/image-vector/vector-blank-traffic-sign-red-260nw-1035002347.jpg)
IMO this is enough for an all language stop sign
Are there any commonly used signs with no legend or imagery? I suppose I'd get used to it, but it definitely seems like something's missing there.
I found this when looking through a list of road signs in China
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/China_road_sign_%E7%A6%81_4.svg/800px-China_road_sign_%E7%A6%81_4.svg.png)
That's a fairly common sign in Europe as well.
For example, I once crossed a railroad track at a train station in the Netherlands. I saw the sign below on the pathway, but I thought that, because there was no slash through the circle, crossing was not prohibited. I got yelled at by a station employee.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/Nederlands_verkeersbord_C1_mb.svg/60px-Nederlands_verkeersbord_C1_mb.svg.png)
I'll also point out that, even though stop signs aren't used without some sort of legend, yield signs are.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Belgian_road_sign_B1.svg/60px-Belgian_road_sign_B1.svg.png)
Theoretically, I think Ireland has the configuration below for STOP AHEAD. However, I don't know if this is actually commonly used in the field.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Ireland_road_sign_W_040.svg/60px-Ireland_road_sign_W_040.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Ireland_road_sign_P_001.svg/40px-Ireland_road_sign_P_001.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Ireland_road_sign_P_001.svg/40px-Ireland_road_sign_P_001.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on July 21, 2021, 12:30:37 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on July 21, 2021, 12:30:37 PM
The international standard Do Not Enter is the same as ours, but cutout and without the text:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Zeichen_267_-_Verbot_der_Einfahrt%2C_StVO_1970.svg/240px-Zeichen_267_-_Verbot_der_Einfahrt%2C_StVO_1970.svg.png)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Zeichen_267_-_Verbot_der_Einfahrt%2C_StVO_1970.svg/240px-Zeichen_267_-_Verbot_der_Einfahrt%2C_StVO_1970.svg.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: MaddogMicharski on July 22, 2021, 12:37:09 AM
Post by: MaddogMicharski on July 22, 2021, 12:37:09 AM
Jughandles should be used more frequently on major arterial roads.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on July 22, 2021, 09:31:35 AM
Post by: kphoger on July 22, 2021, 09:31:35 AM
And we're all very surprised to see that you're from New Jersey.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on July 22, 2021, 03:06:35 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on July 22, 2021, 03:06:35 PM
There are a few more "blank" signs than I thought. I guess, then, that the empty stop sign could work.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on October 24, 2021, 01:56:55 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on October 24, 2021, 01:56:55 PM
Thought of this when looking at I-580 NV and discussing exit numbers on US 36 MO in the Missouri thread earlier.
It should be an option to use the US Route's mile markers (and exit numbers) on Interstate/US Route concurrencies if the two routes are completely concurrent in the Interstate's stretch, the US Route's mile marker numbers are larger, and the US Route continues as a freeway right past the interstate's terminus.
An example of this already existing is I-22/US 78 in MS. I-22 starts at Exit 12 at its western terminus with I-269 because US 78 continues as a freeway further west to the TN line. It makes much more sense doing it this way than having the sole US 78 portion be numbered exits 1-12, then restarting at exit 1 when I-22 begins.
Same could be said about Future I-72 in MO using US 36's mileposts/exit numbers instead of its own, since it's more likely that I-72 would end at I-29 or I-35 than continue all the way to the KS border. And I-580 in NV, I don't like that jump from exit 36 (using I-580 mileposts) to exit 68 (using US 395 mileposts) at the former's northern terminus at I-80. It was perfectly fine before the exits got renumbered, when the whole stretch of I-580 used US 395's greater numbered mileposts and exit numbers.
It should be an option to use the US Route's mile markers (and exit numbers) on Interstate/US Route concurrencies if the two routes are completely concurrent in the Interstate's stretch, the US Route's mile marker numbers are larger, and the US Route continues as a freeway right past the interstate's terminus.
An example of this already existing is I-22/US 78 in MS. I-22 starts at Exit 12 at its western terminus with I-269 because US 78 continues as a freeway further west to the TN line. It makes much more sense doing it this way than having the sole US 78 portion be numbered exits 1-12, then restarting at exit 1 when I-22 begins.
Same could be said about Future I-72 in MO using US 36's mileposts/exit numbers instead of its own, since it's more likely that I-72 would end at I-29 or I-35 than continue all the way to the KS border. And I-580 in NV, I don't like that jump from exit 36 (using I-580 mileposts) to exit 68 (using US 395 mileposts) at the former's northern terminus at I-80. It was perfectly fine before the exits got renumbered, when the whole stretch of I-580 used US 395's greater numbered mileposts and exit numbers.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Mapmikey on October 24, 2021, 02:00:20 PM
Post by: Mapmikey on October 24, 2021, 02:00:20 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 24, 2021, 01:56:55 PM
Thought of this when looking at I-580 NV and discussing exit numbers on US 36 MO in the Missouri thread earlier.
It should be an option to use the US Route's mile markers (and exit numbers) on Interstate/US Route concurrencies if the two routes are completely concurrent in the Interstate's stretch, and the US Route continues as a freeway right past the interstate's terminus.
An example of this already existing is I-22/US 78 in MS. I-22 starts at Exit 12 at its western terminus with I-269 because US 78 continues as a freeway further west to the TN line. It makes much more sense doing it this way than having the sole US 78 portion be numbered exits 1-12, then restarting at exit 1 when I-22 begins.
Same could be said about Future I-72 in MO using US 36's mileposts/exit numbers instead of its own, since it's more likely that I-72 would end at I-29 or I-35 than continue all the way to the KS border. And I-580 in NV, I don't like that jump from exit 36 (using I-580 mileposts) to exit 68 (using US 395 mileposts) at the former's northern terminus at I-80. It was perfectly fine before the exits got renumbered, and the whole stretch of I-580 used US 395's mileposts and exit numbers.
I585 using US 176's mile markers may be the OG of this concept.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TBKS1 on October 24, 2021, 02:07:41 PM
Post by: TBKS1 on October 24, 2021, 02:07:41 PM
I honestly think that the US Route violations (400, 412, 425) are pretty unique. I should also say that I have absolutely no issue with Clearview or any other font, as long as I can read it.
I don't really know a whole lot about roads themselves, I pretty much only take pictures of road signs and that's it lol
I don't really know a whole lot about roads themselves, I pretty much only take pictures of road signs and that's it lol
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on October 24, 2021, 02:28:28 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 24, 2021, 02:28:28 PM
Quote from: TBKS1 on October 24, 2021, 02:07:41 PM
I should also say that I have absolutely no issue with Clearview or any other font, as long as I can read it.
Are you fine with the corruption part of the story? Because the typeface itself I can take or leave, but Meeker & Associates's conduct during the whole Clearview affair makes my blood boil.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on October 24, 2021, 04:12:30 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on October 24, 2021, 04:12:30 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 24, 2021, 01:56:55 PM
It should be an option to use the US Route's mile markers (and exit numbers) on Interstate/US Route concurrencies if the two routes are completely concurrent in the Interstate's stretch, the US Route's mile marker numbers are larger, and the US Route continues as a freeway right past the interstate's terminus.
Why does it matter that the US route numbers be larger?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: OracleUsr on October 24, 2021, 09:37:07 PM
Post by: OracleUsr on October 24, 2021, 09:37:07 PM
Okay, I thought NOT liking Clearview might be more unpopular, but I guess not (I don't).
I like left exits too, where appropriate (like highway splits).
I like left exits too, where appropriate (like highway splits).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: LilianaUwU on October 24, 2021, 09:46:08 PM
Post by: LilianaUwU on October 24, 2021, 09:46:08 PM
Quote from: OracleUsr on October 24, 2021, 09:37:07 PM
Okay, I thought NOT liking Clearview might be more unpopular, but I guess not (I don't).
From what I've read, the forum was very anti-Clearview in its early days.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on October 24, 2021, 10:20:10 PM
Post by: Rothman on October 24, 2021, 10:20:10 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on October 24, 2021, 09:46:08 PMStill is.Quote from: OracleUsr on October 24, 2021, 09:37:07 PM
Okay, I thought NOT liking Clearview might be more unpopular, but I guess not (I don't).
From what I've read, the forum was very anti-Clearview in its early days.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: wanderer2575 on October 24, 2021, 10:47:28 PM
Post by: wanderer2575 on October 24, 2021, 10:47:28 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on October 24, 2021, 09:46:08 PMQuote from: OracleUsr on October 24, 2021, 09:37:07 PM
Okay, I thought NOT liking Clearview might be more unpopular, but I guess not (I don't).
From what I've read, the forum was very anti-Clearview in its early days.
I don't have an issue with Clearview, per se. I've got an issue with agencies (such as Michigan DOT) spending zillions of dollars to replace signs that don't need replacing, just to get the font out there, while existing roads and bridges become increasingly inadequate.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on October 25, 2021, 12:39:04 PM
Post by: vdeane on October 25, 2021, 12:39:04 PM
I prefer FHWA, but I don't mind Clearview text as long as it's applied per the terms of the interim approval. For whatever reason I don't like how the numbers look, and that dislike has only grown with time. Someone once asked by I hate British Columbia's Clearview signs but am fine with Québec's, and I think the answer comes down to British Columbia using Clearview numbers everywhere (even in shields), whereas Québec only uses Clearview for text.
There's also, of course, Meeker's corruption. I wouldn't mind getting rid of Clearview for that reason alone. Companies shouldn't be allowed to profit from fraudulent studies and lobbying Congress to bail them out when FHWA realized what happened.
There's also, of course, Meeker's corruption. I wouldn't mind getting rid of Clearview for that reason alone. Companies shouldn't be allowed to profit from fraudulent studies and lobbying Congress to bail them out when FHWA realized what happened.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: US20IL64 on October 25, 2021, 05:27:35 PM
Post by: US20IL64 on October 25, 2021, 05:27:35 PM
FHWA e's look like c's and vice versa. :poke: :spin:
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Tom958 on October 25, 2021, 05:59:32 PM
Post by: Tom958 on October 25, 2021, 05:59:32 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 20, 2021, 02:42:13 PM
(https://image.shutterstock.com/image-vector/vector-blank-traffic-sign-red-260nw-1035002347.jpg)
IMO this is enough for an all language stop sign
Put a diagram of the intersection on it, in white.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on October 25, 2021, 06:17:14 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on October 25, 2021, 06:17:14 PM
Quote from: Tom958 on October 25, 2021, 05:59:32 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on July 20, 2021, 02:42:13 PM
(https://image.shutterstock.com/image-vector/vector-blank-traffic-sign-red-260nw-1035002347.jpg)
IMO this is enough for an all language stop sign
Put a diagram of the intersection on it, in white.
Ooh, with thick lines for the directions that need to stop and think lines for the directions that don't. Or vice versa. I don't know.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TBKS1 on October 25, 2021, 07:00:27 PM
Post by: TBKS1 on October 25, 2021, 07:00:27 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 24, 2021, 02:28:28 PMQuote from: TBKS1 on October 24, 2021, 02:07:41 PM
I should also say that I have absolutely no issue with Clearview or any other font, as long as I can read it.
Are you fine with the corruption part of the story? Because the typeface itself I can take or leave, but Meeker & Associates's conduct during the whole Clearview affair makes my blood boil.
I literally know nothing about that. This is probably a stupid question but were they trying to mandate it initially?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on October 25, 2021, 09:20:16 PM
Post by: vdeane on October 25, 2021, 09:20:16 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on October 25, 2021, 06:17:14 PMPerhaps something like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@46.0137581,-72.0932878,3a,25y,338.47h,88.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svMGRC4wc-A4T0IemvnQQ9Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)?Quote from: Tom958 on October 25, 2021, 05:59:32 PMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on July 20, 2021, 02:42:13 PM
(https://image.shutterstock.com/image-vector/vector-blank-traffic-sign-red-260nw-1035002347.jpg)
IMO this is enough for an all language stop sign
Put a diagram of the intersection on it, in white.
Ooh, with thick lines for the directions that need to stop and think lines for the directions that don't. Or vice versa. I don't know.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on October 26, 2021, 11:06:03 AM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on October 26, 2021, 11:06:03 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/NdKjOcO.png)
That'll work, and it's definitely clear what the meaning is, but what I had in mind was something like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/DtaFZDj.png)
In the first, the cross street is wider, which would imply that cross traffic doesn't have a stop sign, while in the second, the two streets are the same width, which would imply that it's a four-way stop. And of course, all the other variations could be displayed in a similar way.
That'll work, and it's definitely clear what the meaning is, but what I had in mind was something like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/DtaFZDj.png)
In the first, the cross street is wider, which would imply that cross traffic doesn't have a stop sign, while in the second, the two streets are the same width, which would imply that it's a four-way stop. And of course, all the other variations could be displayed in a similar way.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: bing101 on October 26, 2021, 11:21:36 AM
Post by: bing101 on October 26, 2021, 11:21:36 AM
Demolish CA-90 Marina freeway and make it an arterial only for the city or county levels?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on January 09, 2022, 07:18:12 AM
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on January 09, 2022, 07:18:12 AM
IMO a County Route can never be a highway. Which leads to a paradox, in which CR 215 around the West side of Las Vegas cannot be considered a highway but only a minor road despite it being a freeway. Now that is something.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on January 09, 2022, 02:53:59 PM
Post by: vdeane on January 09, 2022, 02:53:59 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on January 09, 2022, 07:18:12 AMSuffolk County, NY would like a word with you. Many of the most major surface streets are actually county routes, with the major county roads actually being more major than most of the non-freeway state routes. I would say the major exceptions are NY 110, NY 231, NY 347, NY 454, NY 114, and NY 27. CR 46, CR 83, and CR 97 are the major north-south routes in that part of the county, not nearby NY 112, for example. CR 111 is more major than NY 24. And CR 48 is more major than NY 25.
IMO a County Route can never be a highway. Which leads to a paradox, in which CR 215 around the West side of Las Vegas cannot be considered a highway but only a minor road despite it being a freeway. Now that is something.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: skluth on January 09, 2022, 04:32:24 PM
Post by: skluth on January 09, 2022, 04:32:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 09, 2022, 02:53:59 PMYou can also find several letter-designated highways in MissouriQuote from: CNGL-Leudimin on January 09, 2022, 07:18:12 AMSuffolk County, NY would like a word with you. Many of the most major surface streets are actually county routes, with the major county roads actually being more major than most of the non-freeway state routes. I would say the major exceptions are NY 110, NY 231, NY 347, NY 454, NY 114, and NY 27. CR 46, CR 83, and CR 97 are the major north-south routes in that part of the county, not nearby NY 112, for example. CR 111 is more major than NY 24. And CR 48 is more major than NY 25.
IMO a County Route can never be a highway. Which leads to a paradox, in which CR 215 around the West side of Las Vegas cannot be considered a highway but only a minor road despite it being a freeway. Now that is something.
Route D/Page Avenue (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7001355,-90.4412032,3a,75y,225.57h,80.42t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-d8rIJhGWB5U8EKPmwl2VQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D-d8rIJhGWB5U8EKPmwl2VQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D314.8236%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in St Louis County
Route M (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.3721279,-90.49126,3a,60y,290.16h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOnv49-MjnWOjIMNTy77pvA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in Jefferson County
Route A (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2149529,-90.4357063,3a,60y,299.06h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn6RyK1jJMzCE_dR3blM_lw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in Jeff Co
Route DD (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7272672,-90.8023069,3a,75y,330.51h,68.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stuxpxToS-ecSNFRkWlVXMA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in St Charles Co
Route C (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2127368,-92.7531746,3a,60y,352.96h,76.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWGvRaW2LVLQnS9cpuceEgA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en) in Webster Co
Whether you consider these county routes is debatable. But they aren't interstate, US, or state routes; they're more akin to Wisconsin's CTH system or Texas's FM routes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Big John on January 09, 2022, 09:40:55 PM
Post by: Big John on January 09, 2022, 09:40:55 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 09, 2022, 04:32:24 PMMissouri lettered routes are actually supplemental state routes.Quote from: vdeane on January 09, 2022, 02:53:59 PMYou can also find several letter-designated highways in MissouriQuote from: CNGL-Leudimin on January 09, 2022, 07:18:12 AMSuffolk County, NY would like a word with you. Many of the most major surface streets are actually county routes, with the major county roads actually being more major than most of the non-freeway state routes. I would say the major exceptions are NY 110, NY 231, NY 347, NY 454, NY 114, and NY 27. CR 46, CR 83, and CR 97 are the major north-south routes in that part of the county, not nearby NY 112, for example. CR 111 is more major than NY 24. And CR 48 is more major than NY 25.
IMO a County Route can never be a highway. Which leads to a paradox, in which CR 215 around the West side of Las Vegas cannot be considered a highway but only a minor road despite it being a freeway. Now that is something.
Route D/Page Avenue (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7001355,-90.4412032,3a,75y,225.57h,80.42t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-d8rIJhGWB5U8EKPmwl2VQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D-d8rIJhGWB5U8EKPmwl2VQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D314.8236%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in St Louis County
Route M (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.3721279,-90.49126,3a,60y,290.16h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOnv49-MjnWOjIMNTy77pvA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in Jefferson County
Route A (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2149529,-90.4357063,3a,60y,299.06h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn6RyK1jJMzCE_dR3blM_lw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in Jeff Co
Route DD (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7272672,-90.8023069,3a,75y,330.51h,68.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stuxpxToS-ecSNFRkWlVXMA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in St Charles Co
Route C (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2127368,-92.7531746,3a,60y,352.96h,76.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWGvRaW2LVLQnS9cpuceEgA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en) in Webster Co
Whether you consider these county routes is debatable. But they aren't interstate, US, or state routes; they're more akin to Wisconsin's CTH system or Texas's FM routes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: achilles765 on January 10, 2022, 06:05:41 AM
Post by: achilles765 on January 10, 2022, 06:05:41 AM
I actually like left exits...
and double decked roads/freeways
and I think everywhere should have frontage roads
and double decked roads/freeways
and I think everywhere should have frontage roads
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Molandfreak on January 10, 2022, 12:39:18 PM
Post by: Molandfreak on January 10, 2022, 12:39:18 PM
I-99 is fine.
Left exits and well-placed roundabouts are awesome.
Concrete highways are great.
There's nothing confusing about concurrencies.
Left exits and well-placed roundabouts are awesome.
Concrete highways are great.
There's nothing confusing about concurrencies.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: US20IL64 on January 10, 2022, 12:51:10 PM
Post by: US20IL64 on January 10, 2022, 12:51:10 PM
I-894 in Milwaukee is fine, also. No need to renumber, it designates a bypass for travelers.
But, western extension of I-72 and I-172 were 'pork barrel' projects to appease western IL voters. Not needed that badly.
But, western extension of I-72 and I-172 were 'pork barrel' projects to appease western IL voters. Not needed that badly.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on January 10, 2022, 01:08:08 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on January 10, 2022, 01:08:08 PM
Quote from: achilles765 on January 10, 2022, 06:05:41 AMIncluding freeways in the middle of nowhere, and barely have the traffic counts to justify its existing 4 lanes?
and I think everywhere should have frontage roads
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Bruce on January 10, 2022, 07:09:26 PM
Post by: Bruce on January 10, 2022, 07:09:26 PM
Quote from: achilles765 on January 10, 2022, 06:05:41 AM
and I think everywhere should have frontage roads
We definitely have room to fit frontage roads in narrow canyons and in dense cities...not.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on January 10, 2022, 07:15:11 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on January 10, 2022, 07:15:11 PM
Quote from: Bruce on January 10, 2022, 07:09:26 PMQuote from: achilles765 on January 10, 2022, 06:05:41 AM
and I think everywhere should have frontage roads
We definitely have room to fit frontage roads in narrow canyons and in dense cities...not.
There's room in dense cities as long as you use already existing roads. Somerville MA here (https://goo.gl/maps/467V9uVRVnHrCeCy5)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kernals12 on January 10, 2022, 08:50:25 PM
Post by: kernals12 on January 10, 2022, 08:50:25 PM
Here's an example of a place where frontage roads would be good:
In Germany, they want to build a bypass of the town of Oberschleißheim.
(https://i.imgur.com/k3qXZRX.jpg)
But there's already a perfectly good Autobahn going by the town. With frontage roads, you get your local bypass at far less cost and destruction to the environment.
In Germany, they want to build a bypass of the town of Oberschleißheim.
(https://i.imgur.com/k3qXZRX.jpg)
But there's already a perfectly good Autobahn going by the town. With frontage roads, you get your local bypass at far less cost and destruction to the environment.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: skluth on January 13, 2022, 04:16:53 PM
Post by: skluth on January 13, 2022, 04:16:53 PM
Quote from: Big John on January 09, 2022, 09:40:55 PMSupplemental - meaning it's not a regular state route and added to complete a system. It shouldn't be used as a major highway.Quote from: skluth on January 09, 2022, 04:32:24 PMMissouri lettered routes are actually supplemental state routes.Quote from: vdeane on January 09, 2022, 02:53:59 PMYou can also find several letter-designated highways in MissouriQuote from: CNGL-Leudimin on January 09, 2022, 07:18:12 AMSuffolk County, NY would like a word with you. Many of the most major surface streets are actually county routes, with the major county roads actually being more major than most of the non-freeway state routes. I would say the major exceptions are NY 110, NY 231, NY 347, NY 454, NY 114, and NY 27. CR 46, CR 83, and CR 97 are the major north-south routes in that part of the county, not nearby NY 112, for example. CR 111 is more major than NY 24. And CR 48 is more major than NY 25.
IMO a County Route can never be a highway. Which leads to a paradox, in which CR 215 around the West side of Las Vegas cannot be considered a highway but only a minor road despite it being a freeway. Now that is something.
Route D/Page Avenue (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7001355,-90.4412032,3a,75y,225.57h,80.42t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-d8rIJhGWB5U8EKPmwl2VQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D-d8rIJhGWB5U8EKPmwl2VQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D314.8236%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in St Louis County
Route M (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.3721279,-90.49126,3a,60y,290.16h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOnv49-MjnWOjIMNTy77pvA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in Jefferson County
Route A (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2149529,-90.4357063,3a,60y,299.06h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn6RyK1jJMzCE_dR3blM_lw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in Jeff Co
Route DD (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7272672,-90.8023069,3a,75y,330.51h,68.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stuxpxToS-ecSNFRkWlVXMA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in St Charles Co
Route C (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2127368,-92.7531746,3a,60y,352.96h,76.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWGvRaW2LVLQnS9cpuceEgA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en) in Webster Co
Whether you consider these county routes is debatable. But they aren't interstate, US, or state routes; they're more akin to Wisconsin's CTH system or Texas's FM routes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on January 14, 2022, 01:53:05 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 14, 2022, 01:53:05 AM
Quote from: skluth on January 13, 2022, 04:16:53 PMQuote from: Big John on January 09, 2022, 09:40:55 PMSupplemental - meaning it's not a regular state route and added to complete a system. It shouldn't be used as a major highway.Quote from: skluth on January 09, 2022, 04:32:24 PMMissouri lettered routes are actually supplemental state routes.Quote from: vdeane on January 09, 2022, 02:53:59 PMYou can also find several letter-designated highways in MissouriQuote from: CNGL-Leudimin on January 09, 2022, 07:18:12 AMSuffolk County, NY would like a word with you. Many of the most major surface streets are actually county routes, with the major county roads actually being more major than most of the non-freeway state routes. I would say the major exceptions are NY 110, NY 231, NY 347, NY 454, NY 114, and NY 27. CR 46, CR 83, and CR 97 are the major north-south routes in that part of the county, not nearby NY 112, for example. CR 111 is more major than NY 24. And CR 48 is more major than NY 25.
IMO a County Route can never be a highway. Which leads to a paradox, in which CR 215 around the West side of Las Vegas cannot be considered a highway but only a minor road despite it being a freeway. Now that is something.
Route D/Page Avenue (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7001355,-90.4412032,3a,75y,225.57h,80.42t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-d8rIJhGWB5U8EKPmwl2VQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D-d8rIJhGWB5U8EKPmwl2VQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D314.8236%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in St Louis County
Route M (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.3721279,-90.49126,3a,60y,290.16h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOnv49-MjnWOjIMNTy77pvA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in Jefferson County
Route A (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2149529,-90.4357063,3a,60y,299.06h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn6RyK1jJMzCE_dR3blM_lw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in Jeff Co
Route DD (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7272672,-90.8023069,3a,75y,330.51h,68.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stuxpxToS-ecSNFRkWlVXMA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in St Charles Co
Route C (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2127368,-92.7531746,3a,60y,352.96h,76.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWGvRaW2LVLQnS9cpuceEgA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en) in Webster Co
Whether you consider these county routes is debatable. But they aren't interstate, US, or state routes; they're more akin to Wisconsin's CTH system or Texas's FM routes.
They are, however, still state routes, as they are maintained by MoDOT, not the counties. They just called them "supplemental" instead of "farm-to-market" or "secondary" routes. They serve more or less the same function as FM roads in Texas. But they are in fact state routes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: MATraveler128 on January 14, 2022, 09:43:47 AM
Post by: MATraveler128 on January 14, 2022, 09:43:47 AM
Wisconsin also has lettered routes. Are those considered a part of the state trunk highway network?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on January 14, 2022, 09:59:11 AM
Post by: SkyPesos on January 14, 2022, 09:59:11 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on January 14, 2022, 09:43:47 AMWisconsin's lettered routes are county highways, while Missouri's are secondary SR.
Wisconsin also has lettered routes. Are those considered a part of the state trunk highway network?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: thspfc on January 14, 2022, 01:01:52 PM
Post by: thspfc on January 14, 2022, 01:01:52 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on January 14, 2022, 09:43:47 AMNo. Which is good, because including a bunch of glorified farm roads in the statewide system would drag down the quality standards of state highways. It's nice that in WI, you can actually count on state highways to be wide enough, adequately marked, plowed of snow in winter, and adequately signed. That's not the case in a lot of states.
Wisconsin also has lettered routes. Are those considered a part of the state trunk highway network?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on January 18, 2022, 11:30:59 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on January 18, 2022, 11:30:59 PM
Another unpopular opinion of mine: Dancing arrows are good way to show option lanes. With the dancing arrows ban since 2009, you have to either use 1) two straight down arrows pointing towards the same lane, 2) use a sign per lane, like what OhioDOT is doing now (and I've ranted about it in another thread), or 3) an APL. #2 is already a terrible idea, and ignoring the APLs for now, with two straight down arrows, a driver couldn't really see clearly at freeway speed that the two arrows are pointing down at the same lane until way up close. While with two angled/dancing arrows pointing at a lane, it's much easier to tell that a lane is an option lane just from the angle of the arrows. I wouldn't use dancing arrows outside of denoting option lanes though.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ran4sh on January 19, 2022, 01:04:23 PM
Post by: ran4sh on January 19, 2022, 01:04:23 PM
I don't see how dancing arrows are better than the CA style of simply pointing 2 down arrows to the same lane. But then again I'm from GA which has a history of misaligning down arrows so that they don't really point to the center of a lane. If OH has historically been accurate with its arrows then maybe it could work.
In CA it's obvious because the two arrows are next to each other just on different panels.
I'm surprised that the MN style of option lane signs was never more popular.
In CA it's obvious because the two arrows are next to each other just on different panels.
I'm surprised that the MN style of option lane signs was never more popular.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on January 19, 2022, 02:06:55 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on January 19, 2022, 02:06:55 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on January 19, 2022, 01:04:23 PMI just think that it's clearer that the second to right lane is an option lane by signing like in the image below, than with two straight down arrows (of course, an APL is better, but they are rare in the state)
I don't see how dancing arrows are better than the CA style of simply pointing 2 down arrows to the same lane. But then again I'm from GA which has a history of misaligning down arrows so that they don't really point to the center of a lane. If OH has historically been accurate with its arrows then maybe it could work.
In CA it's obvious because the two arrows are next to each other just on different panels.
I'm surprised that the MN style of option lane signs was never more popular.
Also, looking from the exit tab design, this is a newer installation in the state. Wonder how this made it past the no dancing arrows restriction :hmmm:
(https://i.imgur.com/NNtRx3s.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: I-55 on January 19, 2022, 02:33:19 PM
Post by: I-55 on January 19, 2022, 02:33:19 PM
My friends turn the volume up to hear their music better, I turn the volume down to hear the concrete better.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jemacedo9 on January 19, 2022, 04:30:12 PM
Post by: jemacedo9 on January 19, 2022, 04:30:12 PM
I always felt like using a wide single panel with two diagonal down arrow pointing down to the option lane would have worked out fine.
So...somewhat like an APL...but instead of the APL up arrows...regular down arrows including dancing arrows.
It was always the separate panels w/ the dancing arrows that seemed to be confusing.
So...somewhat like an APL...but instead of the APL up arrows...regular down arrows including dancing arrows.
It was always the separate panels w/ the dancing arrows that seemed to be confusing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on January 19, 2022, 05:38:56 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on January 19, 2022, 05:38:56 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on January 19, 2022, 02:06:55 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/NNtRx3s.png)
I've long thought that something like this might work:
(https://i.imgur.com/mmpWihU.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on January 19, 2022, 08:08:27 PM
Post by: Rothman on January 19, 2022, 08:08:27 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 19, 2022, 05:38:56 PMNo.Quote from: SkyPesos on January 19, 2022, 02:06:55 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/NNtRx3s.png)
I've long thought that something like this might work:
(https://i.imgur.com/mmpWihU.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on January 21, 2022, 09:57:12 AM
Post by: formulanone on January 21, 2022, 09:57:12 AM
Quote from: Rothman on January 19, 2022, 08:08:27 PMQuote from: CtrlAltDel on January 19, 2022, 05:38:56 PMNo.Quote from: SkyPesos on January 19, 2022, 02:06:55 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/NNtRx3s.png)
I've long thought that something like this might work:
(https://i.imgur.com/mmpWihU.png)
The judges would also have accepted "ΛV()" for an answer. :)
A continuous sign with both options, and a separator line that runs about 3/4 of the height of the sign panel works for me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on January 21, 2022, 01:47:40 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on January 21, 2022, 01:47:40 PM
Quote from: formulanone on January 21, 2022, 09:57:12 AMQuote from: Rothman on January 19, 2022, 08:08:27 PMQuote from: CtrlAltDel on January 19, 2022, 05:38:56 PMNo.Quote from: SkyPesos on January 19, 2022, 02:06:55 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/NNtRx3s.png)
I've long thought that something like this might work:
(https://i.imgur.com/mmpWihU.png)
The judges would also have accepted "ΛV()" for an answer. :)
A continuous sign with both options, and a separator line that runs about 3/4 of the height of the sign panel works for me.
Like this?
(https://i.imgur.com/06BDMjc.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on January 21, 2022, 03:00:10 PM
Post by: formulanone on January 21, 2022, 03:00:10 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 21, 2022, 01:47:40 PMQuote from: formulanone on January 21, 2022, 09:57:12 AMQuote from: Rothman on January 19, 2022, 08:08:27 PMQuote from: CtrlAltDel on January 19, 2022, 05:38:56 PMNo.Quote from: SkyPesos on January 19, 2022, 02:06:55 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/NNtRx3s.png)
I've long thought that something like this might work:
(https://i.imgur.com/mmpWihU.png)
The judges would also have accepted "ΛV()" for an answer. :)
A continuous sign with both options, and a separator line that runs about 3/4 of the height of the sign panel works for me.
Like this?
(https://i.imgur.com/06BDMjc.png)
Yup, that. I couldn't think of a location with a good example (that wasn't an APL sign) but I know I've seen them dozens of times.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on January 21, 2022, 10:46:26 PM
Post by: Rothman on January 21, 2022, 10:46:26 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 21, 2022, 01:47:40 PMYes.Quote from: formulanone on January 21, 2022, 09:57:12 AMQuote from: Rothman on January 19, 2022, 08:08:27 PMQuote from: CtrlAltDel on January 19, 2022, 05:38:56 PMNo.Quote from: SkyPesos on January 19, 2022, 02:06:55 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/NNtRx3s.png)
I've long thought that something like this might work:
(https://i.imgur.com/mmpWihU.png)
The judges would also have accepted "ΛV()" for an answer. :)
A continuous sign with both options, and a separator line that runs about 3/4 of the height of the sign panel works for me.
Like this?
(https://i.imgur.com/06BDMjc.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on January 23, 2022, 11:04:30 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on January 23, 2022, 11:04:30 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 10, 2022, 07:15:11 PMQuote from: Bruce on January 10, 2022, 07:09:26 PMQuote from: achilles765 on January 10, 2022, 06:05:41 AM
and I think everywhere should have frontage roads
We definitely have room to fit frontage roads in narrow canyons and in dense cities...not.
There's room in dense cities as long as you use already existing roads. Somerville MA here (https://goo.gl/maps/467V9uVRVnHrCeCy5)
Texas U Turn style frontage roads should be mandatory on the entire Interstate system for any developed area.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SeriesE on January 23, 2022, 11:45:54 PM
Post by: SeriesE on January 23, 2022, 11:45:54 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2022, 10:46:26 PMQuote from: CtrlAltDel on January 21, 2022, 01:47:40 PMYes.Quote from: formulanone on January 21, 2022, 09:57:12 AMQuote from: Rothman on January 19, 2022, 08:08:27 PMQuote from: CtrlAltDel on January 19, 2022, 05:38:56 PMNo.Quote from: SkyPesos on January 19, 2022, 02:06:55 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/NNtRx3s.png)
I've long thought that something like this might work:
(https://i.imgur.com/mmpWihU.png)
The judges would also have accepted "ΛV()" for an answer. :)
A continuous sign with both options, and a separator line that runs about 3/4 of the height of the sign panel works for me.
Like this?
(https://i.imgur.com/06BDMjc.png)
Frankly I'm surprised the MUTCD hasn't attempted to recommend this kind of signs before inventing the space wasting APL signs
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CoreySamson on October 18, 2022, 11:50:15 PM
Post by: CoreySamson on October 18, 2022, 11:50:15 PM
Bumping this for a new unpopular opinion that I never though I would have: I don't think building an I-45 extension (or even a freeway) along US 69 and US 75 to either Tulsa or Muskogee should be seriously considered anytime soon. Traffic on US 75 really dies off in the Durant area from my (admittedly shallow) experience and traffic on US 75 north of Atoka and OK 375 is basically nonexistent. I don't know the exact traffic counts, but there was definitely much less traffic on those routes than there was on other similar long distance routes that people on here want upgraded to interstate (TX 71, US 59 north of Houston, US 412 in OK). It appears to me that Tulsa and Dallas are already connected enough by interstate.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kirbykart on October 19, 2022, 02:36:08 PM
Post by: kirbykart on October 19, 2022, 02:36:08 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 04, 2021, 09:40:21 PM
Prior to the new 2 mile installs on I-81, NY has historically posted just a 1 mile advance... that's it until the exit.
And there's something wrong with that? (I know this is an old quote but I had to respond).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: skluth on October 19, 2022, 04:08:42 PM
Post by: skluth on October 19, 2022, 04:08:42 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on October 18, 2022, 11:50:15 PM
Bumping this for a new unpopular opinion that I never though I would have: I don't think building an I-45 extension (or even a freeway) along US 69 and US 75 to either Tulsa or Muskogee should be seriously considered anytime soon. Traffic on US 75 really dies off in the Durant area from my (admittedly shallow) experience and traffic on US 75 north of Atoka and OK 375 is basically nonexistent. I don't know the exact traffic counts, but there was definitely much less traffic on those routes than there was on other similar long distance routes that people on here want upgraded to interstate (TX 71, US 59 north of Houston, US 412 in OK). It appears to me that Tulsa and Dallas are already connected enough by interstate.
I don't believe it needs to be I-45, i.e., a full freeway. But the US 69/75 Vinita-Dallas corridor is commonly recommended by GPS for traffic between Missouri and Dallas. This map of 2020 truck traffic (https://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/post/656340407087677440/average-daily-truck-traffic-united-states-2020) shows it's a busy corridor for trucks. Towns like Pryor, Atoka, and especially Muskogee should have limited access bypasses. (Technically Muskogee does but I don't know how much traffic diverts to the Muskogee Turnpike.) Upgrading the corridor to a Wisconsin-style expressway like WI 29 or US 151 would be a huge improvement as it would get rid of all the stops along the corridor. Any upgrade is far more likely to be a toll road, but that's fine with me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on October 19, 2022, 04:13:44 PM
Post by: kphoger on October 19, 2022, 04:13:44 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on October 18, 2022, 11:50:15 PM
Traffic on US 75 really dies off in the Durant area from my (admittedly shallow) experience and traffic on US 75 north of Atoka and OK 375 is basically nonexistent. I don't know the exact traffic counts ...
2021 AADT:
US-75 north of Atoka
3300 @ Lehigh
3600 @ OK-3 concurrency
620 @ Hughes County line
2500 @ Calvin
2400 @ Wetumka
970 @ Weleetka
2000 @ I-40
OK-375 north of McAlester
8224 @ US-270
7701 @ McIntosh County line
8060 @ Okmulgee County line
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on October 19, 2022, 04:28:12 PM
Post by: Quillz on October 19, 2022, 04:28:12 PM
I have no nostalgia for button copy and don't care at all when it eventually disappears forever. Aesthetically, I do like how some route shields looked when done in button copy, but those are things that can be recreated on modern sign design if desired.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on October 19, 2022, 04:47:46 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on October 19, 2022, 04:47:46 PM
Quote from: skluth on October 19, 2022, 04:08:42 PMFrom central/southwestern parts of MO I'm guessing? KC have I-35 to Dallas, and St Louis have US 67/I-30.
I don't believe it needs to be I-45, i.e., a full freeway. But the US 69/75 Vinita-Dallas corridor is commonly recommended by GPS for traffic between Missouri and Dallas.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: someone17 on October 19, 2022, 07:19:24 PM
Post by: someone17 on October 19, 2022, 07:19:24 PM
I wish that state routes that are controlled-access freeways are designated something else other than average state routes by AASHTO. For non-road geeks, the image of a state route is a two-lane road in the countryside.
I was thinking something like this? (SR 315 in OH, I am not much of an artist)
(https://i.imgur.com/ALUQ6Gu.jpg)
I was thinking something like this? (SR 315 in OH, I am not much of an artist)
(https://i.imgur.com/ALUQ6Gu.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on October 20, 2022, 03:06:33 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on October 20, 2022, 03:06:33 AM
Quote from: someone17 on October 19, 2022, 07:19:24 PM
I wish that state routes that are controlled-access freeways are designated something else other than average state routes by AASHTO. For non-road geeks, the image of a state route is a two-lane road in the countryside.
I was thinking something like this? (SR 315 in OH, I am not much of an artist)
(https://i.imgur.com/ALUQ6Gu.jpg)
Here's an old concept drawing I have lying around.
(https://i.imgur.com/WM1ksGA.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on October 20, 2022, 06:33:07 AM
Post by: Quillz on October 20, 2022, 06:33:07 AM
Quote from: someone17 on October 19, 2022, 07:19:24 PMWhen I redesigned California route shields as a personal project, what I did was put the type of route at the bottom. So normally it would just be "ROUTE," but sometimes it would be "TOLL" or "COUNTY" (if not state maintained), etc. So something like "FWY" could work. Similar to what Scott posted above. If route shields are going to include the state name, I think that should be reserved simply for straightforward corridors. If it's something different, it should be altered accordingly.
I wish that state routes that are controlled-access freeways are designated something else other than average state routes by AASHTO. For non-road geeks, the image of a state route is a two-lane road in the countryside.
I was thinking something like this? (SR 315 in OH, I am not much of an artist)
(https://i.imgur.com/ALUQ6Gu.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on October 20, 2022, 11:36:24 AM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on October 20, 2022, 11:36:24 AM
Quote from: someone17 on October 19, 2022, 07:19:24 PM
I wish that state routes that are controlled-access freeways are designated something else other than average state routes by AASHTO. For non-road geeks, the image of a state route is a two-lane road in the countryside.
I was thinking something like this? (SR 315 in OH, I am not much of an artist)
(https://i.imgur.com/ALUQ6Gu.jpg)
Something like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/IlUTsvZ.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: someone17 on October 20, 2022, 01:04:53 PM
Post by: someone17 on October 20, 2022, 01:04:53 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on October 20, 2022, 11:36:24 AMQuote from: someone17 on October 19, 2022, 07:19:24 PM
I wish that state routes that are controlled-access freeways are designated something else other than average state routes by AASHTO. For non-road geeks, the image of a state route is a two-lane road in the countryside.
I was thinking something like this? (SR 315 in OH, I am not much of an artist)
(https://i.imgur.com/ALUQ6Gu.jpg)
Something like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/IlUTsvZ.png)
Yes! This is exactly what I was thinking about.
Also - I feel that routes that are across state lines should omit the state name on the sign (i.e. CKC Expressway, which is marked as IL/MO-110)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on October 20, 2022, 01:09:41 PM
Post by: kphoger on October 20, 2022, 01:09:41 PM
Quote from: someone17 on October 20, 2022, 01:04:53 PM
I feel that routes that are across state lines should omit the state name on the sign (i.e. CKC Expressway, which is marked as IL/MO-110)
1. Missouri already doesn't put its state name on the MO-110 shield.
2. The CKC is stoopid.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on October 20, 2022, 01:24:39 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on October 20, 2022, 01:24:39 PM
CKC: really an expressway winding through Forgottonia disguised as a Chicago-Kansas City Expressway, even though we all know that I-35/US 36/I-55 is the actual best route between the two.
Just call it the "Forgottonia Expressway", and drop Missouri out of this whole scheme, at this point.
Just call it the "Forgottonia Expressway", and drop Missouri out of this whole scheme, at this point.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Molandfreak on October 20, 2022, 02:11:47 PM
Post by: Molandfreak on October 20, 2022, 02:11:47 PM
Reactionary hate for roundabouts is dumb and figuring out how to use them is very simple. The only thing I don't like is that some of them aren't being put in optimal locations, but other reasons for hating them range from nonsensical to outright lies.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: skluth on October 20, 2022, 05:07:01 PM
Post by: skluth on October 20, 2022, 05:07:01 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 19, 2022, 04:47:46 PMQuote from: skluth on October 19, 2022, 04:08:42 PMFrom central/southwestern parts of MO I'm guessing? KC have I-35 to Dallas, and St Louis have US 67/I-30.
I don't believe it needs to be I-45, i.e., a full freeway. But the US 69/75 Vinita-Dallas corridor is commonly recommended by GPS for traffic between Missouri and Dallas.
Even from West County. It's the preferred route from Chesterfield and Kirkwood.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SkyPesos on October 20, 2022, 11:16:45 PM
Post by: SkyPesos on October 20, 2022, 11:16:45 PM
Quote from: skluth on October 20, 2022, 05:07:01 PMI wonder how much of that will change once the I-57 extension is finished. The only 2-lane section left of the US 67/I-30 routing from St Louis to Dallas will be part of Future I-57, and since US 67 between Poplar Bluff and I-55 is 4-laned already, this would be another entirely 4+ lane routing after completion that could be competitive with I-44/US 69/US 75 even for those starting in West County.Quote from: SkyPesos on October 19, 2022, 04:47:46 PMEven from West County. It's the preferred route from Chesterfield and Kirkwood.Quote from: skluth on October 19, 2022, 04:08:42 PMFrom central/southwestern parts of MO I'm guessing? KC have I-35 to Dallas, and St Louis have US 67/I-30.
I don't believe it needs to be I-45, i.e., a full freeway. But the US 69/75 Vinita-Dallas corridor is commonly recommended by GPS for traffic between Missouri and Dallas.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kirbykart on October 21, 2022, 08:08:02 AM
Post by: kirbykart on October 21, 2022, 08:08:02 AM
Quote from: Molandfreak on October 20, 2022, 02:11:47 PM
Reactionary hate for roundabouts is dumb and figuring out how to use them is very simple. The only thing I don't like is that some of them aren't being put in optimal locations, but other reasons for hating them range from nonsensical to outright lies.
Roundabouts are good when they are large enough. There are some new ones in Olean and Hamburg that are too small.
The giant rotary in the middle of Augusta, ME is great.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on October 21, 2022, 12:44:14 PM
Post by: vdeane on October 21, 2022, 12:44:14 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on October 21, 2022, 08:08:02 AMYou might feel differently when you're actually driving. Large traffic circles (that thing in Augusta is too big to be a roundabout) are intimidating and have safety issues because traffic has to make quick decisions at high speeds.Quote from: Molandfreak on October 20, 2022, 02:11:47 PM
Reactionary hate for roundabouts is dumb and figuring out how to use them is very simple. The only thing I don't like is that some of them aren't being put in optimal locations, but other reasons for hating them range from nonsensical to outright lies.
Roundabouts are good when they are large enough. There are some new ones in Olean and Hamburg that are too small.
The giant rotary in the middle of Augusta, ME is great.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: skluth on October 21, 2022, 04:33:29 PM
Post by: skluth on October 21, 2022, 04:33:29 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 20, 2022, 11:16:45 PMQuote from: skluth on October 20, 2022, 05:07:01 PMI wonder how much of that will change once the I-57 extension is finished. The only 2-lane section left of the US 67/I-30 routing from St Louis to Dallas will be part of Future I-57, and since US 67 between Poplar Bluff and I-55 is 4-laned already, this would be another entirely 4+ lane routing after completion that could be competitive with I-44/US 69/US 75 even for those starting in West County.Quote from: SkyPesos on October 19, 2022, 04:47:46 PMEven from West County. It's the preferred route from Chesterfield and Kirkwood.Quote from: skluth on October 19, 2022, 04:08:42 PMFrom central/southwestern parts of MO I'm guessing? KC have I-35 to Dallas, and St Louis have US 67/I-30.
I don't believe it needs to be I-45, i.e., a full freeway. But the US 69/75 Vinita-Dallas corridor is commonly recommended by GPS for traffic between Missouri and Dallas.
Good chance it will change. I took the US 67/I-30 route to Dallas about five years ago when I lived in Oakville, not long after the segment up to Walnut Ridge was completed. There was little traffic on it and the new pavement then was great. Actually, there was little traffic on most of US 67 from Fenton to Newport except right around Poplar Bluff so it was pretty relaxing until almost Little Rock.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: texaskdog on October 21, 2022, 10:07:59 PM
Post by: texaskdog on October 21, 2022, 10:07:59 PM
Don't know if I said it already but when a US highway has an extremely long duplex, just end it and have it be in two parts e.g. US 52, US 87, and many others. If you don't sign it and just end it I don't care (though I'd rather they just make it US 152 etc). I'd just reassign half another number but even if they don't, I'm fine with it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jt4 on October 21, 2022, 10:20:09 PM
Post by: jt4 on October 21, 2022, 10:20:09 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 20, 2022, 03:06:33 AM
Here's an old concept drawing I have lying around.
(https://i.imgur.com/WM1ksGA.png)
Great concept, although I'm curious how Minnesota would implement this design.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on November 06, 2022, 01:48:56 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 06, 2022, 01:48:56 AM
If your state's counties are large enough that a route averages a length of at least 75 miles or so in each county, it's probably okay if the mileposts reset at county lines.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: VTGoose on November 07, 2022, 10:09:14 AM
Post by: VTGoose on November 07, 2022, 10:09:14 AM
Not all people who drive big pickup trucks are assholes but a lot of assholes drive big pickup trucks.
Multiple trips between Virginia and Florida (I-81/77/26/95/U.S. 301/I-75) bears this out. When properly passing a slower vehicle (usually at 5-8-10 MPH above the speed limit), it will usually be an asshole in a big pickup who parks on the bumper and tailgates until there is enough room to move right and out of the way. On three-lane parts of the interstate, they will be the ones who weave in and out of traffic across all three lanes.
Multiple trips between Virginia and Florida (I-81/77/26/95/U.S. 301/I-75) bears this out. When properly passing a slower vehicle (usually at 5-8-10 MPH above the speed limit), it will usually be an asshole in a big pickup who parks on the bumper and tailgates until there is enough room to move right and out of the way. On three-lane parts of the interstate, they will be the ones who weave in and out of traffic across all three lanes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on November 07, 2022, 10:55:23 AM
Post by: webny99 on November 07, 2022, 10:55:23 AM
Quote from: VTGoose on November 07, 2022, 10:09:14 AM
Multiple trips between Virginia and Florida (I-81/77/26/95/U.S. 301/I-75) bears this out. When properly passing a slower vehicle (usually at 5-8-10 MPH above the speed limit), it will usually be an asshole in a big pickup who parks on the bumper and tailgates until there is enough room to move right and out of the way. On three-lane parts of the interstate, they will be the ones who weave in and out of traffic across all three lanes.
On that note, I actually enjoy trying to move right before they try passing on the right. Sometimes you'll get an aggressive tailgater or two and it can be a bit of a game at times, but it still feels like a win to avoid being passed on the right.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JoePCool14 on November 07, 2022, 10:56:48 AM
Post by: JoePCool14 on November 07, 2022, 10:56:48 AM
Quote from: VTGoose on November 07, 2022, 10:09:14 AM
Not all people who drive big pickup trucks are assholes but a lot of assholes drive big pickup trucks.
Multiple trips between Virginia and Florida (I-81/77/26/95/U.S. 301/I-75) bears this out. When properly passing a slower vehicle (usually at 5-8-10 MPH above the speed limit), it will usually be an asshole in a big pickup who parks on the bumper and tailgates until there is enough room to move right and out of the way. On three-lane parts of the interstate, they will be the ones who weave in and out of traffic across all three lanes.
I almost got hit by someone doing some crazy weaving yesterday. The way they were doing it, it looked like they were purposely trying to cause chaos. They were threading the needle at close to 100 mph. More police on the road would cut down on a lot of this. I find that my trips into Wisconsin are a lot calmer due to the higher number of police on that stretch.
Lots of people are obnoxious drivers, and standards continue to fall.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on November 07, 2022, 11:33:49 AM
Post by: kphoger on November 07, 2022, 11:33:49 AM
Quote from: webny99 on November 07, 2022, 10:55:23 AM
I actually enjoy trying to move right before they try passing on the right. Sometimes you'll get an aggressive tailgater or two and it can be a bit of a game at times, but it still feels like a win to avoid being passed on the right.
If someone is tailgating me, then I generally change lanes much more gradually than I otherwise would. Put the blinker on and start to move right, then e-e-e-ever so slowly movie into the other lane.
Yes, it's a game.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kurumi on November 07, 2022, 11:56:11 AM
Post by: kurumi on November 07, 2022, 11:56:11 AM
Might be unpopular opinion:
If there are a bunch of widely spaced vehicles to pass, I'll be in the left lane even if I'm not specifically passing someone at that time, instead of changing lanes more frequently. But if I see someone coming up in the rear view, even if they seem aggressive or excessively fast, I'll move over; go ahead.
Slower drivers can affect you for miles. A faster driver is usually out of the picture in a short time. (And occasionally they're good for mine-clearing in speed trap areas :-)
If there are a bunch of widely spaced vehicles to pass, I'll be in the left lane even if I'm not specifically passing someone at that time, instead of changing lanes more frequently. But if I see someone coming up in the rear view, even if they seem aggressive or excessively fast, I'll move over; go ahead.
Slower drivers can affect you for miles. A faster driver is usually out of the picture in a short time. (And occasionally they're good for mine-clearing in speed trap areas :-)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JoePCool14 on November 07, 2022, 12:03:58 PM
Post by: JoePCool14 on November 07, 2022, 12:03:58 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 07, 2022, 11:33:49 AMQuote from: webny99 on November 07, 2022, 10:55:23 AM
I actually enjoy trying to move right before they try passing on the right. Sometimes you'll get an aggressive tailgater or two and it can be a bit of a game at times, but it still feels like a win to avoid being passed on the right.
If someone is tailgating me, then I generally change lanes much more gradually than I otherwise would. Put the blinker on and start to move right, then e-e-e-ever so slowly movie into the other lane.
Yes, it's a game.
Seems like a good way to get into a road rage incident.
Quote from: kurumi on November 07, 2022, 11:56:11 AM
Might be unpopular opinion:
If there are a bunch of widely spaced vehicles to pass, I'll be in the left lane even if I'm not specifically passing someone at that time, instead of changing lanes more frequently. But if I see someone coming up in the rear view, even if they seem aggressive or excessively fast, I'll move over; go ahead.
Slower drivers can affect you for miles. A faster driver is usually out of the picture in a short time. (And occasionally they're good for mine-clearing in speed trap areas :-)
Depends on the situation, but I somewhat agree with this. I don't like to stay in the far left lane for long around here though. The third lane, if there are four total, is the best one.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on November 07, 2022, 12:06:04 PM
Post by: kphoger on November 07, 2022, 12:06:04 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on November 07, 2022, 12:03:58 PM
Seems like a good way to get into a road rage incident.
I've found that, as long as I'm actually moving into the right lane–no matter how gradually–there's no road rage to be found.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on November 07, 2022, 12:44:23 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 07, 2022, 12:44:23 PM
When I'm being tailgated, I'll let off the gas until I'm at the speed limit, then set my cruise control.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on November 07, 2022, 05:40:02 PM
Post by: webny99 on November 07, 2022, 05:40:02 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 07, 2022, 12:44:23 PM
When I'm being tailgated, I'll let off the gas until I'm at the speed limit, then set my cruise control.
Whether I find that acceptable or not is highly dependent on the context. Definitely not in the left lane of the freeway.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on November 07, 2022, 06:25:01 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 07, 2022, 06:25:01 PM
Quote from: webny99 on November 07, 2022, 05:40:02 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 07, 2022, 12:44:23 PM
When I'm being tailgated, I'll let off the gas until I'm at the speed limit, then set my cruise control.
Whether I find that acceptable or not is highly dependent on the context. Definitely not in the left lane of the freeway.
I mean, I see no reason to continue to break the law solely because someone behind me wants me to break it more.
If I'm doing 75 in a 70 and you want do 6,200, give me a reasonable amount of space until passing can happen. Otherwise, you get to do 70 and I get to do malicious compliance. You aren't entitled to do any speed over the limit.
(If I'm in the left lane, I'm only there because I'm passing someone going under the limit. I'm not a monster.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on November 07, 2022, 07:00:59 PM
Post by: kphoger on November 07, 2022, 07:00:59 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 07, 2022, 06:25:01 PM
I mean, I see no reason to continue to break the law solely because someone behind me wants me to break it more.
Impeding traffic is breaking the law. You're just deciding that it's more OK to break the law you want to break than the one he wants to break.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on November 07, 2022, 07:03:32 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 07, 2022, 07:03:32 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 07, 2022, 07:00:59 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 07, 2022, 06:25:01 PM
I mean, I see no reason to continue to break the law solely because someone behind me wants me to break it more.
Impeding traffic is breaking the law. You're just deciding that it's more OK to break the law you want to break than the one he wants to break.
Damn right I am! Because I know which one Oklahoma actually enforces.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Bruce on November 07, 2022, 07:06:56 PM
Post by: Bruce on November 07, 2022, 07:06:56 PM
Quote from: VTGoose on November 07, 2022, 10:09:14 AM
Not all people who drive big pickup trucks are assholes but a lot of assholes drive big pickup trucks.
I'm convinced my neighbor modified their pickup to produce as much sound as it can, because I can feel it shake my house from a good distance away. This kind of vehicle modification (plus coal-rolling systems, absurd lifts, etc) should be banned and punishable by immediate forfeiture.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on November 07, 2022, 08:59:10 PM
Post by: kphoger on November 07, 2022, 08:59:10 PM
Quote from: Bruce on November 07, 2022, 07:06:56 PMQuote from: VTGoose on November 07, 2022, 10:09:14 AM
Not all people who drive big pickup trucks are assholes but a lot of assholes drive big pickup trucks.
I'm convinced my neighbor modified their pickup to produce as much sound as it can, because I can feel it shake my house from a good distance away. This kind of vehicle modification (plus coal-rolling systems, absurd lifts, etc) should be banned and punishable by immediate forfeiture.
Do you think that about pickups only, or also motorcycles?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on November 07, 2022, 09:34:53 PM
Post by: webny99 on November 07, 2022, 09:34:53 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 07, 2022, 06:25:01 PMQuote from: webny99 on November 07, 2022, 05:40:02 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 07, 2022, 12:44:23 PM
When I'm being tailgated, I'll let off the gas until I'm at the speed limit, then set my cruise control.
Whether I find that acceptable or not is highly dependent on the context. Definitely not in the left lane of the freeway.
I mean, I see no reason to continue to break the law solely because someone behind me wants me to break it more.
On the other hand, if you're already breaking the law, there's not much of a reason to stop breaking the law right then.
If someone is tailgating excessively and moving right isn't an option (which isn't very often), I tend to just put my hazards on, and have had success getting them to back off in doing so. It is annoying to be tailgated but ultimately the tailgater will be at fault if an accident were to occur, and I see no reason to further mess with them without knowing why they might be in a hurry.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on November 08, 2022, 04:40:52 PM
Post by: Quillz on November 08, 2022, 04:40:52 PM
Unpopular opinion: I like Clearview. And always have. And I don't understand the hatred it still gets. I think the main issue I had with it was when signs would combine it with the FHWA series fonts, but that's not really the fault of the font itself. Newer signs that are all Clearview look much better. Last time I was in Alaska, they had a lot of Clearview signage (especially in the Kenai Peninsula), and it looked great.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on November 08, 2022, 04:48:45 PM
Post by: kphoger on November 08, 2022, 04:48:45 PM
Quote from: Quillz on November 08, 2022, 04:40:52 PM
Unpopular opinion: I like Clearview. And always have. And I don't understand the hatred it still gets. I think the main issue I had with it was when signs would combine it with the FHWA series fonts, but that's not really the fault of the font itself. Newer signs that are all Clearview look much better. Last time I was in Alaska, they had a lot of Clearview signage (especially in the Kenai Peninsula), and it looked great.
I like Clearview too, always have.
The hatred for Clearview seems to boil down to three main issues:
1. For the same legibility, sign panel size may need to increase.
2. It presents little to no advantage over the old FHWA fonts. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
3. There are more opportunities for error along the way from design to fabrication.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on November 08, 2022, 04:50:25 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on November 08, 2022, 04:50:25 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 08, 2022, 04:48:45 PMQuote from: Quillz on November 08, 2022, 04:40:52 PM
Unpopular opinion: I like Clearview. And always have. And I don't understand the hatred it still gets. I think the main issue I had with it was when signs would combine it with the FHWA series fonts, but that's not really the fault of the font itself. Newer signs that are all Clearview look much better. Last time I was in Alaska, they had a lot of Clearview signage (especially in the Kenai Peninsula), and it looked great.
I like Clearview too, always have.
The hatred for Clearview seems to boil down to three main issues:
1. For the same legibility, sign panel size may need to increase.
2. It presents little to no advantage over the old FHWA fonts. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
3. There are more opportunities for error along the way from design to fabrication.
4. A lot of people resist even the most minute change.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on November 08, 2022, 04:57:35 PM
Post by: Quillz on November 08, 2022, 04:57:35 PM
I believe it was shown it had some small advantages in positive contrast, but actually no advantages (and possibly hindrances) in negative contrast. Which is why it's only ever been allowed for the former. (Although I've seen some negative contrast signage, usually warning signs so you'll get black legend on yellow background).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on November 08, 2022, 05:41:04 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 08, 2022, 05:41:04 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on November 08, 2022, 04:50:25 PMQuote from: kphoger on November 08, 2022, 04:48:45 PMQuote from: Quillz on November 08, 2022, 04:40:52 PM
Unpopular opinion: I like Clearview. And always have. And I don't understand the hatred it still gets. I think the main issue I had with it was when signs would combine it with the FHWA series fonts, but that's not really the fault of the font itself. Newer signs that are all Clearview look much better. Last time I was in Alaska, they had a lot of Clearview signage (especially in the Kenai Peninsula), and it looked great.
I like Clearview too, always have.
The hatred for Clearview seems to boil down to three main issues:
1. For the same legibility, sign panel size may need to increase.
2. It presents little to no advantage over the old FHWA fonts. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
3. There are more opportunities for error along the way from design to fabrication.
4. A lot of people resist even the most minute change.
5. Meeker & Associates is a corrupt organization that presented biased studies to DOTs to get them to buy Clearview licenses.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on November 08, 2022, 06:05:03 PM
Post by: kphoger on November 08, 2022, 06:05:03 PM
(4) is a subset of (2), and (5) isn't major. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Bruce on November 08, 2022, 08:12:47 PM
Post by: Bruce on November 08, 2022, 08:12:47 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 07, 2022, 08:59:10 PMQuote from: Bruce on November 07, 2022, 07:06:56 PMQuote from: VTGoose on November 07, 2022, 10:09:14 AM
Not all people who drive big pickup trucks are assholes but a lot of assholes drive big pickup trucks.
I'm convinced my neighbor modified their pickup to produce as much sound as it can, because I can feel it shake my house from a good distance away. This kind of vehicle modification (plus coal-rolling systems, absurd lifts, etc) should be banned and punishable by immediate forfeiture.
Do you think that about pickups only, or also motorcycles?
Loud motorcycles are also a major menace. Hearing damage is no joke, folks! I'm terrified of developing tinnitus (already have ringing in my ears because of my neighbors) and definitely do not have the money to afford the surgery to correct hearing problems down the road.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on November 08, 2022, 08:13:16 PM
Post by: vdeane on November 08, 2022, 08:13:16 PM
Quote from: Quillz on November 08, 2022, 04:40:52 PMIt can look fine, but it can also look bad. The numbers look like ass, though. This (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9633487,-72.5260857,3a,34y,66.58h,90.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sG1jntKTpHi7EOwzWUU9lIA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) is a much better than this (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.4398496,-73.1227712,3a,23y,122.51h,98.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHJJ8Awh6FdSTZ5WtV9FAEA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). And this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1081302,-75.1780618,3a,42.6y,322.44h,94.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVNYDem3QLB1EBwH69fIcGQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) just makes my eyes bleed.
Unpopular opinion: I like Clearview. And always have. And I don't understand the hatred it still gets. I think the main issue I had with it was when signs would combine it with the FHWA series fonts, but that's not really the fault of the font itself. Newer signs that are all Clearview look much better. Last time I was in Alaska, they had a lot of Clearview signage (especially in the Kenai Peninsula), and it looked great.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Big John on November 09, 2022, 09:37:43 AM
Post by: Big John on November 09, 2022, 09:37:43 AM
Quote from: Bruce on November 08, 2022, 08:12:47 PMI had a neibor who spent a half hour revving up his Harley every time he used it.Quote from: kphoger on November 07, 2022, 08:59:10 PMQuote from: Bruce on November 07, 2022, 07:06:56 PMQuote from: VTGoose on November 07, 2022, 10:09:14 AM
Not all people who drive big pickup trucks are assholes but a lot of assholes drive big pickup trucks.
I'm convinced my neighbor modified their pickup to produce as much sound as it can, because I can feel it shake my house from a good distance away. This kind of vehicle modification (plus coal-rolling systems, absurd lifts, etc) should be banned and punishable by immediate forfeiture.
Do you think that about pickups only, or also motorcycles?
Loud motorcycles are also a major menace. Hearing damage is no joke, folks! I'm terrified of developing tinnitus (already have ringing in my ears because of my neighbors) and definitely do not have the money to afford the surgery to correct hearing problems down the road.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: algorerhythms on November 09, 2022, 09:47:37 AM
Post by: algorerhythms on November 09, 2022, 09:47:37 AM
Quote from: kphoger on November 07, 2022, 07:00:59 PMSo if I'm breaking the law no matter what I do (and that's not the case here, as going the speed limit in the right lane when you want to go faster is not impeding traffic...) then, well, screw you, I'll choose which law I'll break, then.Quote from: Scott5114 on November 07, 2022, 06:25:01 PM
I mean, I see no reason to continue to break the law solely because someone behind me wants me to break it more.
Impeding traffic is breaking the law. You're just deciding that it's more OK to break the law you want to break than the one he wants to break.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on November 09, 2022, 12:46:15 PM
Post by: kphoger on November 09, 2022, 12:46:15 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 07, 2022, 12:44:23 PM
When I'm being tailgated, I'll let off the gas until I'm at the speed limit, then set my cruise control.
Quote from: webny99 on November 07, 2022, 05:40:02 PM
Whether I find that acceptable or not is highly dependent on the context. Definitely not in the left lane of the freeway.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 07, 2022, 06:25:01 PM
I mean, I see no reason to continue to break the law solely because someone behind me wants me to break it more. ... (If I'm in the left lane, I'm only there because I'm passing someone going under the limit. I'm not a monster.)
Quote from: kphoger on November 07, 2022, 07:00:59 PM
Impeding traffic is breaking the law. You're just deciding that it's more OK to break the law you want to break than the one he wants to break.
Quote from: algorerhythms on November 09, 2022, 09:47:37 AM
So if I'm breaking the law no matter what I do (and that's not the case here, as going the speed limit in the right lane when you want to go faster ...
Who said anything about being in the right lane? Just you.
Quote from: algorerhythms on November 09, 2022, 09:47:37 AM
... is not impeding traffic...) then, well, screw you, I'll choose which law I'll break, then.
Laws vary by state, of course. But, generally speaking, the legal definition of impeding traffic doesn't specify which lane it applies to. For example, see the UVC:
Quote from: Uniform Vehicle Code, Millennium Edition
Chapter 11 – Rules of the Road
Article VIII – Speed Restrictions
§ 11-805 – Minimum speed regulation
(a) No person shall drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law.
So, yeah, I agree that going exactly the speed limit would not likely be called "impeding the normal and reasonable movement of traffic". But not because it's in the right lane. If traffic is flowing at 75 mph, then going 25 mph in the right lane would be just as illegal as going 25 mph in the left lane under that definition. If the speed limit is 60 mph and traffic is flowing at 75 mph, then slowing down to 60 just to tick someone off is a dick move, no matter which lane you're in.
(Many states do have an additional law that requires drivers to evacuate the left lane if someone faster wants to pass–and such laws generally don't say anything about whether either vehicle is obeying the speed limit or not.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kirbykart on November 10, 2022, 08:15:18 AM
Post by: kirbykart on November 10, 2022, 08:15:18 AM
Quote from: vdeane on November 08, 2022, 08:13:16 PMQuote from: Quillz on November 08, 2022, 04:40:52 PMIt can look fine, but it can also look bad. The numbers look like ass, though. This (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9633487,-72.5260857,3a,34y,66.58h,90.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sG1jntKTpHi7EOwzWUU9lIA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) is a much better than this (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.4398496,-73.1227712,3a,23y,122.51h,98.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHJJ8Awh6FdSTZ5WtV9FAEA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). And this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1081302,-75.1780618,3a,42.6y,322.44h,94.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVNYDem3QLB1EBwH69fIcGQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) just makes my eyes bleed.
Unpopular opinion: I like Clearview. And always have. And I don't understand the hatred it still gets. I think the main issue I had with it was when signs would combine it with the FHWA series fonts, but that's not really the fault of the font itself. Newer signs that are all Clearview look much better. Last time I was in Alaska, they had a lot of Clearview signage (especially in the Kenai Peninsula), and it looked great.
All of those look pretty good. This (https://goo.gl/maps/9iuXeABY3v7AvZFH9) is horrible.
What the hell, (https://goo.gl/maps/VyxXLTxNf7Xj1iSx7) PennDOT? And here (https://goo.gl/maps/n2FBJFCPH6oa933p9) we have the 3/4 error in Clearview. Yuck.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: machias on November 10, 2022, 08:53:00 AM
Post by: machias on November 10, 2022, 08:53:00 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on November 10, 2022, 08:15:18 AM
All of those look pretty good. This (https://goo.gl/maps/9iuXeABY3v7AvZFH9) is horrible.
What the hell, (https://goo.gl/maps/VyxXLTxNf7Xj1iSx7) PennDOT? And here (https://goo.gl/maps/n2FBJFCPH6oa933p9) we have the 3/4 error in Clearview. Yuck.
The "s" in Pittsburgh and the "s" in south were swapped during fabrication.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: algorerhythms on November 10, 2022, 09:41:08 AM
Post by: algorerhythms on November 10, 2022, 09:41:08 AM
I mean, you're talking about a state that makes signs like this... https://maps.app.goo.gl/rBQQYM5CDQwhB38v7?g_st=ic
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kirbykart on November 10, 2022, 10:04:17 AM
Post by: kirbykart on November 10, 2022, 10:04:17 AM
Quote from: algorerhythms on November 10, 2022, 09:41:08 AM
I mean, you're talking about a state that makes signs like this... https://maps.app.goo.gl/rBQQYM5CDQwhB38v7?g_st=ic
I mean, the only error there is the 3/4 error, it would look beautiful without that dumb sizing error.
And NYSTA makes signs like this: (https://goo.gl/maps/i6e8PQyUZ3JJmAXh8) Apparently "Pk" is an adjective and it describes Beaver perfectly. And the road we are on junctions with itself in 5 miles? So many errors, and to top it off the sign is in Helvetica!
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on November 10, 2022, 11:51:19 AM
Post by: kphoger on November 10, 2022, 11:51:19 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on November 10, 2022, 08:15:18 AM
This (https://goo.gl/maps/9iuXeABY3v7AvZFH9) is horrible.
Overstatement? I literally have no idea what's wrong with that sign.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kirbykart on November 10, 2022, 02:33:34 PM
Post by: kirbykart on November 10, 2022, 02:33:34 PM
^It's a lot worse than those others, and it looks worse in person than in StreetView. Clearview can be done right, but this one isn't great.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on November 10, 2022, 02:40:39 PM
Post by: kphoger on November 10, 2022, 02:40:39 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on November 10, 2022, 02:33:34 PM
^It's a lot worse than those others
I still have no idea what you're even talking about. It looks fine to me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JoePCool14 on November 10, 2022, 03:16:05 PM
Post by: JoePCool14 on November 10, 2022, 03:16:05 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 10, 2022, 11:51:19 AMQuote from: kirbykart on November 10, 2022, 08:15:18 AM
This (https://goo.gl/maps/9iuXeABY3v7AvZFH9) is horrible.
Overstatement? I literally have no idea what's wrong with that sign.
There's a handful of minor errors:
- Incorrect usage of Clearview in the directions, exit tab, and Exit Only plaques.
- The Exit Only plaques should not have a black border.
- The APL arrows do not follow the correct specs. Particularly the curved arrows.
- The sign should be placed slightly upstream where the option lane is still only one lane.
I wouldn't call that sign horrible, per say. I could see ISTHA fabricating something like that a few years ago.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on November 10, 2022, 03:25:42 PM
Post by: webny99 on November 10, 2022, 03:25:42 PM
Not related to the Clearview, but also...
-Rochester should be listed before Albany (or maybe not at all, since it's not a control city beyond Buffalo).
-You're still outside Buffalo city limits here, so there's no need to specify "Downtown". Buffalo alone would suffice.
-Rochester should be listed before Albany (or maybe not at all, since it's not a control city beyond Buffalo).
-You're still outside Buffalo city limits here, so there's no need to specify "Downtown". Buffalo alone would suffice.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: VTGoose on November 11, 2022, 12:53:20 PM
Post by: VTGoose on November 11, 2022, 12:53:20 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 09, 2022, 12:46:15 PM
(Many states do have an additional law that requires drivers to evacuate the left lane if someone faster wants to pass–and such laws generally don't say anything about whether either vehicle is obeying the speed limit or not.)
And most reasonable drivers will do this, completing their pass in a timely manner and moving out of the way when it is safe to do so.
The genesis of this was the assholes (usually in big pickup trucks, but can be any vehicle) who come roaring up onto one's rear bumper and tailgate to force their way ahead. If slowing down a bit in reaction to the unsafe following distance is what it takes to feel more comfortable in the situation, then so be it. Too bad if someone is inconvenienced for 30 seconds.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: RobbieL2415 on November 11, 2022, 12:55:30 PM
Post by: RobbieL2415 on November 11, 2022, 12:55:30 PM
Quote from: VTGoose on November 11, 2022, 12:53:20 PMWhen people in CT say, "keep right except to pass" I have to remind them that this doesn't apply if the road has three or more lanes and that in that case, it's "slower traffic keep right"Quote from: kphoger on November 09, 2022, 12:46:15 PM
(Many states do have an additional law that requires drivers to evacuate the left lane if someone faster wants to pass–and such laws generally don't say anything about whether either vehicle is obeying the speed limit or not.)
And most reasonable drivers will do this, completing their pass in a timely manner and moving out of the way when it is safe to do so.
The genesis of this was the assholes (usually in big pickup trucks, but can be any vehicle) who come roaring up onto one's rear bumper and tailgate to force their way ahead. If slowing down a bit in reaction to the unsafe following distance is what it takes to feel more comfortable in the situation, then so be it. Too bad if someone is inconvenienced for 30 seconds.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 12:58:43 PM
Post by: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 12:58:43 PM
Quote from: VTGoose on November 11, 2022, 12:53:20 PM
... who come roaring up onto one's rear bumper and tailgate to force their way ahead ...
You've just described every single driver in Mexico who wants to pass any other driver. :sombrero:
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Techknow on November 11, 2022, 01:04:56 PM
Post by: Techknow on November 11, 2022, 01:04:56 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on November 10, 2022, 02:33:34 PM
^It's a lot worse than those others, and it looks worse in person than in StreetView. Clearview can be done right, but this one isn't great.
Here's my unpopular opinion...
This BGS is horrible compared to that! The font used is an anomaly with Caltrans, no other Caltrans sign AFAICT other than the one in the Southbound direction of I-5 has this font. And then the usual Caltrans sign features, internal exit tabs and the CA 1 sign crammed with info and I think the route symbol is not centered with respect to the text
(https://i.imgur.com/rVX7utG.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 01:10:18 PM
Post by: kphoger on November 11, 2022, 01:10:18 PM
Is that not one of the usual FHWA fonts–just sized incorrectly?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on November 11, 2022, 03:32:51 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 11, 2022, 03:32:51 PM
Yeah, that's the classic 3/4 error, caused by misinterpreting a particular line of text in the MUTCD. Hating signs with it is not an unpopular opinion–J.N. Winkler and I both submitted public comments to get the offending passage clarified in the 2023(?) MUTCD.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JoePCool14 on November 11, 2022, 03:47:44 PM
Post by: JoePCool14 on November 11, 2022, 03:47:44 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 11, 2022, 03:32:51 PM
Yeah, that's the classic 3/4 error, caused by misinterpreting a particular line of text in the MUTCD. Hating signs with it is not an unpopular opinion–J.N. Winkler and I both submitted public comments to get the offending passage clarified in the 2023(?) MUTCD.
Rightfully so. It's a very common error that could be easily clarified. The solution is just to not change your font size in CAD!
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kirbykart on November 21, 2022, 07:06:59 PM
Post by: kirbykart on November 21, 2022, 07:06:59 PM
Quote from: Techknow on November 11, 2022, 01:04:56 PMQuote from: kirbykart on November 10, 2022, 02:33:34 PM
^It's a lot worse than those others, and it looks worse in person than in StreetView. Clearview can be done right, but this one isn't great.
Here's my unpopular opinion...
This BGS is horrible compared to that! The font used is an anomaly with Caltrans, no other Caltrans sign AFAICT other than the one in the Southbound direction of I-5 has this font. And then the usual Caltrans sign features, internal exit tabs and the CA 1 sign crammed with info and I think the route symbol is not centered with respect to the text
(https://i.imgur.com/rVX7utG.jpg)
I mean, CalTrans just has horrible standards in general. Their method of signage is unique and bizarre. They're going for like a "modern" look, coincidentally like the kind of thing you'd expect from Southern California. I don't like it.
Internal exit tabs are even worse than Clearview done incorrectly.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kirbykart on November 21, 2022, 07:10:59 PM
Post by: kirbykart on November 21, 2022, 07:10:59 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on November 10, 2022, 03:16:05 PMQuote from: kphoger on November 10, 2022, 11:51:19 AMQuote from: kirbykart on November 10, 2022, 08:15:18 AM
This (https://goo.gl/maps/9iuXeABY3v7AvZFH9) is horrible.
Overstatement? I literally have no idea what's wrong with that sign.
There's a handful of minor errors:
- Incorrect usage of Clearview in the directions, exit tab, and Exit Only plaques.
- The Exit Only plaques should not have a black border.
- The APL arrows do not follow the correct specs. Particularly the curved arrows.
- The sign should be placed slightly upstream where the option lane is still only one lane.
I wouldn't call that sign horrible, per say. I could see ISTHA fabricating something like that a few years ago.
It wasn't captured very well in StreetView. Aside from those errors which I may have subconsciously noticed but not thought about, the whole thing has a very plasticky look in person.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on November 21, 2022, 07:17:34 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 21, 2022, 07:17:34 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on November 21, 2022, 07:06:59 PM
I mean, CalTrans just has horrible standards in general. Their method of signage is unique and bizarre.
The Caltrans Cinematic Universe, I like to call it. I've designed stuff to Caltrans spec for work. It's...different, I'll give you that.
But I don't think it's fair to paint it as horrible in general. There's some stuff in there that's genuinely awesome. Like the route shields in general.
But yes, there's some stuff that is horrible.
Quote from: kirbykart on November 21, 2022, 07:06:59 PM
They're going for like a "modern" look, coincidentally like the kind of thing you'd expect from Southern California. I don't like it.
Assuming you're talking about the sign in the photo...no, the person who put the sign together just lacks reading comprehension. It's a common problem. It's not a California problem; you see it across the country. I'll be in Kansas City, KS this week–their 2009-spec signs look just like that one. Every single one of them.
Quote from: kirbykart on November 21, 2022, 07:06:59 PM
Internal exit tabs are even worse than Clearview done incorrectly.
You'll be happy to learn that Caltrans has finally deprecated them. All it took was redesigning their standard gantry to include gusset plates–something the Kansas standard gantry has had since before I was born. (And which Oklahoma's standard gantry I guess doesn't need.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: PurdueBill on November 24, 2022, 10:39:40 AM
Post by: PurdueBill on November 24, 2022, 10:39:40 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on November 10, 2022, 08:15:18 AMQuote from: vdeane on November 08, 2022, 08:13:16 PMQuote from: Quillz on November 08, 2022, 04:40:52 PMIt can look fine, but it can also look bad. The numbers look like ass, though. This (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9633487,-72.5260857,3a,34y,66.58h,90.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sG1jntKTpHi7EOwzWUU9lIA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) is a much better than this (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.4398496,-73.1227712,3a,23y,122.51h,98.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHJJ8Awh6FdSTZ5WtV9FAEA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). And this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1081302,-75.1780618,3a,42.6y,322.44h,94.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVNYDem3QLB1EBwH69fIcGQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) just makes my eyes bleed.
Unpopular opinion: I like Clearview. And always have. And I don't understand the hatred it still gets. I think the main issue I had with it was when signs would combine it with the FHWA series fonts, but that's not really the fault of the font itself. Newer signs that are all Clearview look much better. Last time I was in Alaska, they had a lot of Clearview signage (especially in the Kenai Peninsula), and it looked great.
All of those look pretty good. This (https://goo.gl/maps/9iuXeABY3v7AvZFH9) is horrible.
What the hell, (https://goo.gl/maps/VyxXLTxNf7Xj1iSx7) PennDOT? And here (https://goo.gl/maps/n2FBJFCPH6oa933p9) we have the 3/4 error in Clearview. Yuck.
The eastbound side just into PA from the Ohio line had an even worse example of switching letters around on a sign...small capital A and larger lowercase one, and ditto with a pair of Os. Made for it looking quite comical. It has since been corrected after years being posted.
https://goo.gl/maps/hvCbSFCdjGhpfzeY8
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: thenetwork on November 24, 2022, 01:13:40 PM
Post by: thenetwork on November 24, 2022, 01:13:40 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on November 24, 2022, 10:39:40 AMQuote from: kirbykart on November 10, 2022, 08:15:18 AMQuote from: vdeane on November 08, 2022, 08:13:16 PMQuote from: Quillz on November 08, 2022, 04:40:52 PMIt can look fine, but it can also look bad. The numbers look like ass, though. This (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9633487,-72.5260857,3a,34y,66.58h,90.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sG1jntKTpHi7EOwzWUU9lIA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) is a much better than this (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.4398496,-73.1227712,3a,23y,122.51h,98.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHJJ8Awh6FdSTZ5WtV9FAEA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). And this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1081302,-75.1780618,3a,42.6y,322.44h,94.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVNYDem3QLB1EBwH69fIcGQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) just makes my eyes bleed.
Unpopular opinion: I like Clearview. And always have. And I don't understand the hatred it still gets. I think the main issue I had with it was when signs would combine it with the FHWA series fonts, but that's not really the fault of the font itself. Newer signs that are all Clearview look much better. Last time I was in Alaska, they had a lot of Clearview signage (especially in the Kenai Peninsula), and it looked great.
All of those look pretty good. This (https://goo.gl/maps/9iuXeABY3v7AvZFH9) is horrible.
What the hell, (https://goo.gl/maps/VyxXLTxNf7Xj1iSx7) PennDOT? And here (https://goo.gl/maps/n2FBJFCPH6oa933p9) we have the 3/4 error in Clearview. Yuck.
The eastbound side just into PA from the Ohio line had an even worse example of switching letters around on a sign...small capital A and larger lowercase one, and ditto with a pair of Os. Made for it looking quite comical. It has since been corrected after years being posted.
https://goo.gl/maps/hvCbSFCdjGhpfzeY8
Perhaps Mr. Confair was born in Craig County, OK?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kirbykart on November 25, 2022, 11:40:10 AM
Post by: kirbykart on November 25, 2022, 11:40:10 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 21, 2022, 07:17:34 PMQuote from: kirbykart on November 21, 2022, 07:06:59 PM
I mean, CalTrans just has horrible standards in general. Their method of signage is unique and bizarre.
The Caltrans Cinematic Universe, I like to call it. I've designed stuff to Caltrans spec for work. It's...different, I'll give you that.
But I don't think it's fair to paint it as horrible in general. There's some stuff in there that's genuinely awesome. Like the route shields in general.
But yes, there's some stuff that is horrible.Quote from: kirbykart on November 21, 2022, 07:06:59 PM
They're going for like a "modern" look, coincidentally like the kind of thing you'd expect from Southern California. I don't like it.
Assuming you're talking about the sign in the photo...no, the person who put the sign together just lacks reading comprehension. It's a common problem. It's not a California problem; you see it across the country. I'll be in Kansas City, KS this week–their 2009-spec signs look just like that one. Every single one of them.
No, I'm not talking about that sign in particular, but their standards in general make their signs look modern.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on November 25, 2022, 12:06:57 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 25, 2022, 12:06:57 PM
That has no meaning, though.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kirbykart on November 25, 2022, 12:49:06 PM
Post by: kirbykart on November 25, 2022, 12:49:06 PM
^Let me ask you this: Do you like the look of modern things?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on November 25, 2022, 01:33:05 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 25, 2022, 01:33:05 PM
The problem is that the phrase "modern things" has an undefined value.
"Modern" becomes even more meaningless when you try to apply it to Caltrans signage, which often combines exit tabs with 2005 specs with shield specs from the 60s printed on reflective sheeting standards from the 2010s. Are they "trying to make it look modern?" Hell if I know. If they are, they're not doing a very good job of it.
"Modern" becomes even more meaningless when you try to apply it to Caltrans signage, which often combines exit tabs with 2005 specs with shield specs from the 60s printed on reflective sheeting standards from the 2010s. Are they "trying to make it look modern?" Hell if I know. If they are, they're not doing a very good job of it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kirbykart on November 25, 2022, 03:22:35 PM
Post by: kirbykart on November 25, 2022, 03:22:35 PM
It looks modern compared to normal signs, and I don't like it. That's it. End of conversation.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on November 25, 2022, 04:57:29 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on November 25, 2022, 04:57:29 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on November 25, 2022, 03:22:35 PM
It looks modern compared to normal signs, and I don't like it. That's it. End of conversation.
LOL what? You don't like his answer to your question so it's "end of conversation?" Weak.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on November 25, 2022, 08:15:59 PM
Post by: vdeane on November 25, 2022, 08:15:59 PM
^ Maybe he's a neutral Janet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjVHE2rICGg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjVHE2rICGg
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kirbykart on November 26, 2022, 12:12:26 PM
Post by: kirbykart on November 26, 2022, 12:12:26 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on November 25, 2022, 04:57:29 PMQuote from: kirbykart on November 25, 2022, 03:22:35 PM
It looks modern compared to normal signs, and I don't like it. That's it. End of conversation.
LOL what? You don't like his answer to your question so it's "end of conversation?" Weak.
No, it's just that it's my personal opinion and there's nothing else to say about it. Therefore, end of conversation.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on November 26, 2022, 12:46:26 PM
Post by: Rothman on November 26, 2022, 12:46:26 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on November 26, 2022, 12:12:26 PMDoesn't seem to be.Quote from: SEWIGuy on November 25, 2022, 04:57:29 PMQuote from: kirbykart on November 25, 2022, 03:22:35 PM
It looks modern compared to normal signs, and I don't like it. That's it. End of conversation.
LOL what? You don't like his answer to your question so it's "end of conversation?" Weak.
No, it's just that it's my personal opinion and there's nothing else to say about it. Therefore, end of conversation.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kirbykart on November 26, 2022, 07:09:11 PM
Post by: kirbykart on November 26, 2022, 07:09:11 PM
It's called Unpopular Opinions for a reason. I don't like modern things, CalTrans signs look modern IMO, and therefore I don't like CalTrans signs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on November 26, 2022, 07:12:15 PM
Post by: Rothman on November 26, 2022, 07:12:15 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on November 26, 2022, 07:09:11 PMYep, still goin'.
It's called Unpopular Opinions for a reason. I don't like modern things, CalTrans signs look modern IMO, and therefore I don't like CalTrans signs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kirbykart on November 26, 2022, 07:26:26 PM
Post by: kirbykart on November 26, 2022, 07:26:26 PM
^Ok, now I'm confused.
*thinks about it for a minute*
Ohhhhhh, you mean that I keep posting about the topic. Well,
1) I'm just restating what I've already said, and
2) It's not a conversation if the person I'm talking to (Scott) isn't answering
But if you really want it,
End of conversation this time, I mean it!
*thinks about it for a minute*
Ohhhhhh, you mean that I keep posting about the topic. Well,
1) I'm just restating what I've already said, and
2) It's not a conversation if the person I'm talking to (Scott) isn't answering
But if you really want it,
End of conversation this time, I mean it!
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on November 26, 2022, 07:28:40 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 26, 2022, 07:28:40 PM
I mean, I could say that Caltrans signs look like chicken fried rice in my opinion, and just adding "in my opinion" doesn't really change the fact that I said something that doesn't make a whole lot of objective sense.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: J N Winkler on November 27, 2022, 02:38:15 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on November 27, 2022, 02:38:15 PM
Seriously unpopular opinion: driving the Autobahn is not what it's cracked up to be and Americans should be grateful for what they have.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 02:47:29 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 02:47:29 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on November 27, 2022, 02:38:15 PM
Seriously unpopular opinion: driving the Autobahn is not what it's cracked up to be and Americans should be grateful for what they have.
Limited access roadways are totally underrated for "thrilling driving experiences."
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on November 27, 2022, 03:15:43 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 27, 2022, 03:15:43 PM
Unpopular road-related opinion: A driving experience must be thrilling to be worth doing.
I'll keep the thrills in my life separate from my hobby where I'm operating a thousand-pound machine with the capability to kill myself and others, thank you.
I'll keep the thrills in my life separate from my hobby where I'm operating a thousand-pound machine with the capability to kill myself and others, thank you.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 03:28:11 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 03:28:11 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2022, 03:15:43 PM
Unpopular road-related opinion: A driving experience must be thrilling to be worth doing.
I'll keep the thrills in my life separate from my hobby where I'm operating a thousand-pound machine with the capability to kill myself and others, thank you.
For what it's worth in my case doing things like driving weird and super steep one lane mountain roads might not even be in the top five risky behaviors I engage in. For example distance running has almost killed me three times in the last two decades. So far driving weird mountain roads hasn't come close to killing me even once.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on November 27, 2022, 03:31:44 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 27, 2022, 03:31:44 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 03:28:11 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2022, 03:15:43 PM
Unpopular road-related opinion: A driving experience must be thrilling to be worth doing.
I'll keep the thrills in my life separate from my hobby where I'm operating a thousand-pound machine with the capability to kill myself and others, thank you.
For what it's worth in my case doing things like driving weird and super steep one lane mountain roads might not even be in the top five risky behaviors I engage in. For example distance running has almost killed me three times in the last two decades. So far driving weird mountain roads hasn't come close to killing me even once.
To me, anything that involves a great deal of risk is stressful, not enjoyable. So if I am going to indulge in risk-taking behavior, I'd rather it be in a context like a game where if I fuck it up the consequences are negligible.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 03:43:16 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 03:43:16 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2022, 03:31:44 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 03:28:11 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 27, 2022, 03:15:43 PM
Unpopular road-related opinion: A driving experience must be thrilling to be worth doing.
I'll keep the thrills in my life separate from my hobby where I'm operating a thousand-pound machine with the capability to kill myself and others, thank you.
For what it's worth in my case doing things like driving weird and super steep one lane mountain roads might not even be in the top five risky behaviors I engage in. For example distance running has almost killed me three times in the last two decades. So far driving weird mountain roads hasn't come close to killing me even once.
To me, anything that involves a great deal of risk is stressful, not enjoyable. So if I am going to indulge in risk-taking behavior, I'd rather it be in a context like a game where if I fuck it up the consequences are negligible.
And I can understand that, pushing the envelope on potentially dangerous behaviors isn't for everyone. For me it isn't really so much about ignoring risk, but rather planning ahead and finding a way to overcome it. In the context of running, becoming skilled enough to overcome a challenge/a that once hospitalized me is something I found rewarding and even thrilling. Similarly the more intimidating a road is tends goes hand in hand with how much I enjoy the drive. There is definitely something of a high to activities that carry risk, at least for me.
Conversely I seem to have an issue where I can't go for more than two/three weeks without some sort of recreational activity that carries risk. I've never been able to really pinpoint a reason for such discontentment. The only solution seems to be to go do something like go for a super long run, long/secluded hike or a mountain drive.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on November 27, 2022, 04:00:37 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 27, 2022, 04:00:37 PM
Right, and I can understand the appeal, but cool mountain roads like the ones you seek out and even things like US-550 are just...not for me. And it does mean that I am probably missing out on a lot of things that would interest me, like scenic views and cool old signs and bridges and stuff. But I'm okay with that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: J N Winkler on November 27, 2022, 06:28:40 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on November 27, 2022, 06:28:40 PM
I don't actually consider driving on paved primary state highways in the mountains to be especially risky, though it does require a specific skill set and a higher level of alertness. Steep downgrades are perfectly easy to handle as long as you're using the engine to control your speed, not the service brakes. It is unpaved roads that make me nervous--I've heard a few too many stories of adventurous travelers dying when a road slid away just as they drove on it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: pderocco on November 27, 2022, 07:12:56 PM
Post by: pderocco on November 27, 2022, 07:12:56 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on November 27, 2022, 06:28:40 PMThanks a lot. I really didn't need that inside my brain...
I don't actually consider driving on paved primary state highways in the mountains to be especially risky, though it does require a specific skill set and a higher level of alertness. Steep downgrades are perfectly easy to handle as long as you're using the engine to control your speed, not the service brakes. It is unpaved roads that make me nervous--I've heard a few too many stories of adventurous travelers dying when a road slid away just as they drove on it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 07:15:07 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 07:15:07 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on November 27, 2022, 06:28:40 PM
I don't actually consider driving on paved primary state highways in the mountains to be especially risky, though it does require a specific skill set and a higher level of alertness. Steep downgrades are perfectly easy to handle as long as you're using the engine to control your speed, not the service brakes. It is unpaved roads that make me nervous--I've heard a few too many stories of adventurous travelers dying when a road slid away just as they drove on it.
What are these people consuming roads and where can I find them?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: algorerhythms on November 27, 2022, 07:29:58 PM
Post by: algorerhythms on November 27, 2022, 07:29:58 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 07:15:07 PMIf you mean the road that slid away off the mountain, I once encountered something like that on US 219 in Pennsylvania...Quote from: J N Winkler on November 27, 2022, 06:28:40 PM
I don't actually consider driving on paved primary state highways in the mountains to be especially risky, though it does require a specific skill set and a higher level of alertness. Steep downgrades are perfectly easy to handle as long as you're using the engine to control your speed, not the service brakes. It is unpaved roads that make me nervous--I've heard a few too many stories of adventurous travelers dying when a road slid away just as they drove on it.
What are these people consuming roads and where can I find them?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 07:31:49 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 07:31:49 PM
Quote from: algorerhythms on November 27, 2022, 07:29:58 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 07:15:07 PMIf you mean the road that slid away off the mountain, I once encountered something like that on US 219 in Pennsylvania...Quote from: J N Winkler on November 27, 2022, 06:28:40 PM
I don't actually consider driving on paved primary state highways in the mountains to be especially risky, though it does require a specific skill set and a higher level of alertness. Steep downgrades are perfectly easy to handle as long as you're using the engine to control your speed, not the service brakes. It is unpaved roads that make me nervous--I've heard a few too many stories of adventurous travelers dying when a road slid away just as they drove on it.
What are these people consuming roads and where can I find them?
I'm always looking for suggestions on roads that might interest me on my travels. Unsurfaced stuff tends to be high on my list when I can find something that isn't full OHV or high clearance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kurumi on November 28, 2022, 12:19:11 PM
Post by: kurumi on November 28, 2022, 12:19:11 PM
We visited Queenstown NZ a long time ago. It's known for adventure sports and tours, from bungy (aka bungie) to rock climbing and so on.
We had a tour in the mountains, just the two of us and a driver in a 4WD Jeepish thing, on single-lane dirt roads above canyons. We stopped at one point where there'd been a recent gravel slide. It was certainly driveable unless the gravel was so loose that it would take the Jeep over the side with it/
He took out a shovel and poked at the slide. A moderate amount of gravel started spilling over the edge. "We can try it," he said. He might have been bluffing.
We didn't take the risk.
We had a tour in the mountains, just the two of us and a driver in a 4WD Jeepish thing, on single-lane dirt roads above canyons. We stopped at one point where there'd been a recent gravel slide. It was certainly driveable unless the gravel was so loose that it would take the Jeep over the side with it/
He took out a shovel and poked at the slide. A moderate amount of gravel started spilling over the edge. "We can try it," he said. He might have been bluffing.
We didn't take the risk.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Occidental Tourist on November 28, 2022, 09:15:20 PM
Post by: Occidental Tourist on November 28, 2022, 09:15:20 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 07:31:49 PMQuote from: algorerhythms on November 27, 2022, 07:29:58 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 07:15:07 PMIf you mean the road that slid away off the mountain, I once encountered something like that on US 219 in Pennsylvania...Quote from: J N Winkler on November 27, 2022, 06:28:40 PM
I don't actually consider driving on paved primary state highways in the mountains to be especially risky, though it does require a specific skill set and a higher level of alertness. Steep downgrades are perfectly easy to handle as long as you're using the engine to control your speed, not the service brakes. It is unpaved roads that make me nervous--I've heard a few too many stories of adventurous travelers dying when a road slid away just as they drove on it.
What are these people consuming roads and where can I find them?
I'm always looking for suggestions on roads that might interest me on my travels. Unsurfaced stuff tends to be high on my list when I can find something that isn't full OHV or high clearance.
If you like poorly-maintained roads, might I suggest Coalinga Road and Los Gatos Creek Road in San Benito and Fresno Counties. Bonus: if you go in the winter or spring , you get to drive through a creek.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on December 07, 2022, 06:22:51 PM
Post by: webny99 on December 07, 2022, 06:22:51 PM
I'm not sure if this is unpopular, but I think it will be:
There should never, under any circumstance, be two consecutive lane merges from the same entrance ramp on the same side of a mainline freeway (interstate or otherwise).
-If an on-ramp is busy enough to warrant two full lanes, at least one lane should continue to at least the next exit.
-If an on-ramp has two lanes but one lane is enough to handle the AADT volumes, such as at many rural interstate junctions, the two ramp lanes should merge into one prior to joining the mainline.
-If the on-ramp is busier than the mainline, but the next exit is too far away to justify widening to that point, one lane should end on each side of the mainline.
There should never, under any circumstance, be two consecutive lane merges from the same entrance ramp on the same side of a mainline freeway (interstate or otherwise).
-If an on-ramp is busy enough to warrant two full lanes, at least one lane should continue to at least the next exit.
-If an on-ramp has two lanes but one lane is enough to handle the AADT volumes, such as at many rural interstate junctions, the two ramp lanes should merge into one prior to joining the mainline.
-If the on-ramp is busier than the mainline, but the next exit is too far away to justify widening to that point, one lane should end on each side of the mainline.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on December 07, 2022, 06:33:48 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on December 07, 2022, 06:33:48 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on November 28, 2022, 09:15:20 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 07:31:49 PMQuote from: algorerhythms on November 27, 2022, 07:29:58 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on November 27, 2022, 07:15:07 PMIf you mean the road that slid away off the mountain, I once encountered something like that on US 219 in Pennsylvania...Quote from: J N Winkler on November 27, 2022, 06:28:40 PM
I don't actually consider driving on paved primary state highways in the mountains to be especially risky, though it does require a specific skill set and a higher level of alertness. Steep downgrades are perfectly easy to handle as long as you're using the engine to control your speed, not the service brakes. It is unpaved roads that make me nervous--I've heard a few too many stories of adventurous travelers dying when a road slid away just as they drove on it.
What are these people consuming roads and where can I find them?
I'm always looking for suggestions on roads that might interest me on my travels. Unsurfaced stuff tends to be high on my list when I can find something that isn't full OHV or high clearance.
If you like poorly-maintained roads, might I suggest Coalinga Road and Los Gatos Creek Road in San Benito and Fresno Counties. Bonus: if you go in the winter or spring , you get to drive through a creek.
Fresno County maintains their share pretty well. San Benito County is where things become epic:
https://www.gribblenation.org/2018/08/los-gatos-creek-roadcoalinga-road.html?m=1
Pertaining to the blog above, the photos were taken during a winter month. I did encounter ice and a running asphalt ford.
For those not in the know, San Benito County is the king of poorly maintained local road maintenance in California. San Benito Route J1 as an example was for a quite time likely one of the five worst asphalt surface roads I had ever driven on. Everywhere you look outside of incorporated cities has poorly maintained county stock. San Benito County definitely is a personal favorite of mine, it has never disappointed me in terms of finding something exciting to add to Gribblenation.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on December 16, 2022, 09:47:18 AM
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on December 16, 2022, 09:47:18 AM
You can say anything you want, without saying it.
"hypothetically, were I to call you a cheese-dip-covered skyline of Sutherland, Nebraska, how would you react?"
"hypothetically, were I to call you a cheese-dip-covered skyline of Sutherland, Nebraska, how would you react?"
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on January 13, 2023, 12:24:50 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on January 13, 2023, 12:24:50 AM
I have two ones that might stirr up some shit
In America, more money should be spent on public transit than highways (though we still need to spend more money on highways and roads)
The future of driving should be self-driving electric cars. This is better for the enviorment and will be a net positive for the hobby.
In America, more money should be spent on public transit than highways (though we still need to spend more money on highways and roads)
The future of driving should be self-driving electric cars. This is better for the enviorment and will be a net positive for the hobby.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on January 13, 2023, 12:36:48 AM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on January 13, 2023, 12:36:48 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 13, 2023, 12:24:50 AM
The future of driving should be self-driving electric cars. This is better for the enviorment and will be a net positive for the hobby.
How is not being able to manually operate a car a boon for the hobby? If anything I see that as a road hobby killer.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on January 13, 2023, 12:39:40 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on January 13, 2023, 12:39:40 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 13, 2023, 12:36:48 AMI was more talking about the electric part due to not having to pay for gas and it being better for the enviornment, the self-driving car has benefits and drawbacks. Although I currently don't have a license, and I don't trust myself fully on the road due to my issues. So it would benefit me in particular to be able to go places without a license. And on scenic roads, it would be cool to look at the scenary without having to focus on the road.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 13, 2023, 12:24:50 AM
The future of driving should be self-driving electric cars. This is better for the enviorment and will be a net positive for the hobby.
How is not being able to manually operate a car a boon for the hobby? If anything I see that as a road hobby killer.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on January 13, 2023, 12:46:44 AM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on January 13, 2023, 12:46:44 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 13, 2023, 12:39:40 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 13, 2023, 12:36:48 AMI was more talking about the electric part due to not having to pay for gas and it being better for the enviornment, the self-driving car has benefits and drawbacks. Although I currently don't have a license, and I don't trust myself fully on the road due to my issues. So it would benefit me in particular to be able to go places without a license. And on scenic roads, it would be cool to look at the scenary without having to focus on the road.Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 13, 2023, 12:24:50 AM
The future of driving should be self-driving electric cars. This is better for the enviorment and will be a net positive for the hobby.
How is not being able to manually operate a car a boon for the hobby? If anything I see that as a road hobby killer.
One of the best things if not the best thing I've found about scenic roads is navigating them behind the wheel. It's one thing to have a AI escort you from a standardized freeway, it would be quite another for it to negotiate an Ebbetts Pass type highway. The prospect of the latter or something similar rings hollow and lacking.
Then again, I've never really recall not wanting to be the wheel man on an active road trip. I enjoy driving and finding new roads to experience/explore for myself. I don't even enjoy being a passenger generally.
Regarding EVs, that's not exactly a totally free lunch in terms of charging. We make a killing with what our gas station charges the EV drivers to plug-in as an example. Don't forget, widespread proliferation of VMTs is likely coming soon.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 13, 2023, 01:01:43 AM
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 13, 2023, 01:01:43 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 13, 2023, 12:36:48 AMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on January 13, 2023, 12:24:50 AM
The future of driving should be self-driving electric cars. This is better for the enviorment and will be a net positive for the hobby.
How is not being able to manually operate a car a boon for the hobby? If anything I see that as a road hobby killer.
Being we're talking a few hundred people, it really doesn't matter either way
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 13, 2023, 12:24:50 AM
In America, more money should be spent smartly on public transitthan highways
This is how I would rewrite this. We can't throw money out the door trying to convince every rural homeowner to take a bus everywhere. Improve transit service in cities and urban areas where the *masses* can utilize mass transit. Don't pad a budget just to spend more than another mode of transportation, especially when roads help move buses too...and help get people to trains.
If people want to live 30 miles from a city, that's fine. But don't build train lines at tens of millions of dollars per mile, which will only operate at low frequencies and not 24 hours a day, ti be used very infrequently outside of rush hours.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Roadgeekteen on January 13, 2023, 01:03:24 AM
Post by: Roadgeekteen on January 13, 2023, 01:03:24 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 13, 2023, 01:01:43 AMYeah that's kind of what I meant. I'm mostly talking about in Urban and suburban areas, public transit doesn't work well in rural South Dakota.Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 13, 2023, 12:36:48 AMQuote from: Roadgeekteen on January 13, 2023, 12:24:50 AM
The future of driving should be self-driving electric cars. This is better for the enviorment and will be a net positive for the hobby.
How is not being able to manually operate a car a boon for the hobby? If anything I see that as a road hobby killer.
Being we're talking a few hundred people, it really doesn't matter either wayQuote from: Roadgeekteen on January 13, 2023, 12:24:50 AM
In America, more money should be spent smartly on public transitthan highways
This is how I would rewrite this. We can't throw money out the door trying to convince every rural homeowner to take a bus everywhere. Improve transit service in cities and urban areas where the *masses* can utilize mass transit. Don't pad a budget just to spend more than another mode of transportation, especially when roads help move buses too...and help get people to trains.
If people want to live 30 miles from a city, that's fine. But don't build train lines at tens of millions of dollars per mile, which will only operate at low frequencies and not 24 hours a day, ti be used very infrequently outside of rush hours.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on January 13, 2023, 09:12:40 AM
Post by: kphoger on January 13, 2023, 09:12:40 AM
I wouldn't trust a self-driving car to find just the right parking position at a campsite in the Rockies–the best combination of unpacking convenience, tree branch clearance for the cargo box on top, morning sun exposure, and hiking access between road and tent pad.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on January 13, 2023, 02:12:51 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 13, 2023, 02:12:51 PM
Having experience with computer programming, I wouldn't trust a self-driving car, period.
Humans can make mistakes, but our pattern recognition is something that we still have trouble teaching computers. And most of driving is pattern recognition.
Humans can make mistakes, but our pattern recognition is something that we still have trouble teaching computers. And most of driving is pattern recognition.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: US 89 on January 13, 2023, 05:37:27 PM
Post by: US 89 on January 13, 2023, 05:37:27 PM
I wouldn't trust a self-driving car to do any more than drive without changing lanes on a rural interstate in the daylight. And even then, I don't trust it to slow down and watch out for the deer walking through the grass off to the side that might decide to jump onto the road at any given moment.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Gnutella on January 17, 2023, 03:23:41 AM
Post by: Gnutella on January 17, 2023, 03:23:41 AM
Given the combination of
1. Population
2. Traffic volume
3. Road network size
4. Mountainous terrain
5. Location in the freeze/thaw belt
6. Not being an especially rich state
"PennDOT engineer" ranks up there with "Jewish carpenter" and "meteorologist" on the list of the world's most thankless jobs.
1. Population
2. Traffic volume
3. Road network size
4. Mountainous terrain
5. Location in the freeze/thaw belt
6. Not being an especially rich state
"PennDOT engineer" ranks up there with "Jewish carpenter" and "meteorologist" on the list of the world's most thankless jobs.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: MultiMillionMiler on January 17, 2023, 03:35:48 AM
Post by: MultiMillionMiler on January 17, 2023, 03:35:48 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 13, 2023, 02:12:51 PM
Having experience with computer programming, I wouldn't trust a self-driving car, period.
Humans can make mistakes, but our pattern recognition is something that we still have trouble teaching computers. And most of driving is pattern recognition.
Not to mention all the glitches computer programs have, or wireless connectivity problems if they were all linked in some large network. Self driving cars would just be a dangerous form of a train on roads instead of on rails.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on January 17, 2023, 03:41:05 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 17, 2023, 03:41:05 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 17, 2023, 03:35:48 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on January 13, 2023, 02:12:51 PM
Having experience with computer programming, I wouldn't trust a self-driving car, period.
Humans can make mistakes, but our pattern recognition is something that we still have trouble teaching computers. And most of driving is pattern recognition.
Not to mention all the glitches computer programs have, or wireless connectivity problems if they were all linked in some large network. Self driving cars would just be a dangerous form of a train on roads instead of on rails.
Exactly. If you're going to do that, just build a train.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on January 17, 2023, 01:42:10 PM
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on January 17, 2023, 01:42:10 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 03:04:36 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 26, 2021, 01:17:52 PM
The overwhelming majority of freeways are boring to drive on.
So are the overwhelming majority of conventional roads, for that matter. The argument for conventional roads is you get to "see more", by which they usually mean more small towns. Small towns are more or less interchangeable and have nothing unique to them that isn't a historic event (which probably isn't going on while you're passing through on the state highway) or some local business (sure, Nellie's Diner makes fantastic fried chicken, but so does Glenda's Diner in a town about the same size that's 50 miles down the road, and about 20 different restaurants in an actual city).
And let's face it, when you're on a trip, you don't have the time to stop in every single small town and learn all about the Oak Resin Rebellion of 1917 (when Jeridida Sawfunkler climbed the grain elevator and declared "No man should have to parallel park on the streets of Goltry!"), or which of the anonymous historic buildings on Main Street (or is it Broadway?) makes the best fried paperclips, or whatever. Most of them are just going to represent a 25 mph zone in between two 65 mph zones that you have to slow down for as you make your way through the historic downtown that will look exactly like the historic downtown of the next 25 mph zone you will encounter eighteen miles down the road.
Freeways at least give you the opportunity to cover distance so you get to actually interesting places faster.
Sorry for the old pull here but read this today and it might be the greatest thing I have ever read. Basically, this is the reason I am such a fan of the interstate highway system. Sure, cross country freeway travel might get repetitive, but you get through the minutia faster. My childhood consisted of trips from Ausin, where I grew up, to Marshall, TX where my grandparents lived. The whole trip albeit 30 miles was on US-79 through every small town downtown. Sometimes it was fun, but after a while and as I grew up, I started to realize all the towns on the trip started to look the same, and the towns started to look the same as any rural drive I took in Texas. This is one of the reasons I don't understand the sad story of the old US highway being bypassed by the interstate and what it did to the town. The interstate helped everyone not have to deal with that town anymore and everyone was happier for it. The few that needed to stop because they were hungry, needed gas or had to use the bathroom will still stop in your town. I have said forever, forcing the cross-country traffic through your precious historic downtown does no good for anyone. The myopia vision is it gets all those motorists to stop at the businesses in the downtown area, when the reality is no one wants to stop at all your stupid trinket stores and one good restaurant that's like every other town's best restaurant on the trip and instead your downtown drag just ends up congested and pedestrians run for their life not to be run over by the 18-wheelers. Most on the road just want to get another 400 miles down the road as quickly as they can so they can get to Wally World.
All this to say, I am not a small-town hater, but they pretty much end up looking the same. Seen one, you seen them all.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on January 17, 2023, 01:46:39 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on January 17, 2023, 01:46:39 PM
I do, however, appreciate good punny business names or advertising signs. For example, traveling on NH 125, What's The Scoop ice cream. (The business wasn't on 125 itself; a sign pointed to it.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on January 17, 2023, 02:13:31 PM
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on January 17, 2023, 02:13:31 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 17, 2023, 01:46:39 PM
I do, however, appreciate good punny business names or advertising signs. For example, traveling on NH 125, What's The Scoop ice cream. (The business wasn't on 125 itself; a sign pointed to it.)
Funny thing is, I do too. I love those shop names like that, but I like driving over 2,000 miles in a day and a half way more.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on January 17, 2023, 03:11:25 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 17, 2023, 03:11:25 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 17, 2023, 01:46:39 PM
I do, however, appreciate good punny business names or advertising signs. For example, traveling on NH 125, What's The Scoop ice cream. (The business wasn't on 125 itself; a sign pointed to it.)
Even those get copypasted a few times if you drive through enough small towns.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on January 17, 2023, 04:13:28 PM
Post by: Quillz on January 17, 2023, 04:13:28 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 17, 2023, 01:42:10 PMI had this experience when I visited a small town on Alaska's North Slope. It was really neat to visit for the first couple days because it was on the frozen-over Arctic Ocean and it was in a part of the world I never visited before. But by the third day, I realized that was all it had to offer. It otherwise was just another small town with little to do. I booked an entire week there and by the third day I was bored out of my mind. (It's the kind of town you can only get in and out of with a boat or plane).Quote from: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 03:04:36 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 26, 2021, 01:17:52 PM
The overwhelming majority of freeways are boring to drive on.
So are the overwhelming majority of conventional roads, for that matter. The argument for conventional roads is you get to "see more", by which they usually mean more small towns. Small towns are more or less interchangeable and have nothing unique to them that isn't a historic event (which probably isn't going on while you're passing through on the state highway) or some local business (sure, Nellie's Diner makes fantastic fried chicken, but so does Glenda's Diner in a town about the same size that's 50 miles down the road, and about 20 different restaurants in an actual city).
And let's face it, when you're on a trip, you don't have the time to stop in every single small town and learn all about the Oak Resin Rebellion of 1917 (when Jeridida Sawfunkler climbed the grain elevator and declared "No man should have to parallel park on the streets of Goltry!"), or which of the anonymous historic buildings on Main Street (or is it Broadway?) makes the best fried paperclips, or whatever. Most of them are just going to represent a 25 mph zone in between two 65 mph zones that you have to slow down for as you make your way through the historic downtown that will look exactly like the historic downtown of the next 25 mph zone you will encounter eighteen miles down the road.
Freeways at least give you the opportunity to cover distance so you get to actually interesting places faster.
Sorry for the old pull here but read this today and it might be the greatest thing I have ever read. Basically, this is the reason I am such a fan of the interstate highway system. Sure, cross country freeway travel might get repetitive, but you get through the minutia faster. My childhood consisted of trips from Ausin, where I grew up, to Marshall, TX where my grandparents lived. The whole trip albeit 30 miles was on US-79 through every small town downtown. Sometimes it was fun, but after a while and as I grew up, I started to realize all the towns on the trip started to look the same, and the towns started to look the same as any rural drive I took in Texas. This is one of the reasons I don't understand the sad story of the old US highway being bypassed by the interstate and what it did to the town. The interstate helped everyone not have to deal with that town anymore and everyone was happier for it. The few that needed to stop because they were hungry, needed gas or had to use the bathroom will still stop in your town. I have said forever, forcing the cross-country traffic through your precious historic downtown does no good for anyone. The myopia vision is it gets all those motorists to stop at the businesses in the downtown area, when the reality is no one wants to stop at all your stupid trinket stores and one good restaurant that's like every other town's best restaurant on the trip and instead your downtown drag just ends up congested and pedestrians run for their life not to be run over by the 18-wheelers. Most on the road just want to get another 400 miles down the road as quickly as they can so they can get to Wally World.
All this to say, I am not a small-town hater, but they pretty much end up looking the same. Seen one, you seen them all.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AM
Post by: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AM
Sometimes you see a small town that's different than the rest. Maybe they'll have a town square/roundabout type intersection in the middle, such as Lancaster, WI (https://goo.gl/maps/kDUnqM8Wq8FoSDrt6) (outdated GMSV). Or maybe you some towns have a different road design. Very wide, or tight and narrow. Or even as something as simple as different street blade designs. What I mean is that there can still be some variety had in different towns. Of my time travelling around SW Wisconsin, I can still give at least one thing I remember about most of the towns.
On the subject of self-driving cars: noooooooooo. I would much rather drive from the aspect of safety and enjoyment. It's way more engaging. Also, I do not trust computers that much. I don't care if jet planes are flown using computers. Cars and planes are not the same with the number of variables.
And electric cars are not overall better for the environment. The electricity likely comes from oil or coal. Batteries require resources to be mined. Batteries are also consumable, and their capacity will degrade each cycle. Imagine having to replace an expensive battery every few years if you drive long distances frequently. And of course, even the best charge times using DC Fast Charge or a Tesla Supercharger can take 20-30 minutes.
The best use case for electric cars are in cities. They cut down on local emissions, which have been problematic, and are easier to charge for driving short distances. I'm not completely against them. Wyoming supposedly wants to place a ban on the sale of all EVs, which is equally as wrong as California banning the sale of all gasoline vehicles.
Replacing all gas vehicles with electric is nothing more than a politicians' fantasy.
On the subject of self-driving cars: noooooooooo. I would much rather drive from the aspect of safety and enjoyment. It's way more engaging. Also, I do not trust computers that much. I don't care if jet planes are flown using computers. Cars and planes are not the same with the number of variables.
And electric cars are not overall better for the environment. The electricity likely comes from oil or coal. Batteries require resources to be mined. Batteries are also consumable, and their capacity will degrade each cycle. Imagine having to replace an expensive battery every few years if you drive long distances frequently. And of course, even the best charge times using DC Fast Charge or a Tesla Supercharger can take 20-30 minutes.
The best use case for electric cars are in cities. They cut down on local emissions, which have been problematic, and are easier to charge for driving short distances. I'm not completely against them. Wyoming supposedly wants to place a ban on the sale of all EVs, which is equally as wrong as California banning the sale of all gasoline vehicles.
Replacing all gas vehicles with electric is nothing more than a politicians' fantasy.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on January 18, 2023, 10:14:42 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on January 18, 2023, 10:14:42 AM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 17, 2023, 01:42:10 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 03:04:36 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 26, 2021, 01:17:52 PM
The overwhelming majority of freeways are boring to drive on.
So are the overwhelming majority of conventional roads, for that matter. The argument for conventional roads is you get to "see more", by which they usually mean more small towns. Small towns are more or less interchangeable and have nothing unique to them that isn't a historic event (which probably isn't going on while you're passing through on the state highway) or some local business (sure, Nellie's Diner makes fantastic fried chicken, but so does Glenda's Diner in a town about the same size that's 50 miles down the road, and about 20 different restaurants in an actual city).
And let's face it, when you're on a trip, you don't have the time to stop in every single small town and learn all about the Oak Resin Rebellion of 1917 (when Jeridida Sawfunkler climbed the grain elevator and declared "No man should have to parallel park on the streets of Goltry!"), or which of the anonymous historic buildings on Main Street (or is it Broadway?) makes the best fried paperclips, or whatever. Most of them are just going to represent a 25 mph zone in between two 65 mph zones that you have to slow down for as you make your way through the historic downtown that will look exactly like the historic downtown of the next 25 mph zone you will encounter eighteen miles down the road.
Freeways at least give you the opportunity to cover distance so you get to actually interesting places faster.
Sorry for the old pull here but read this today and it might be the greatest thing I have ever read. Basically, this is the reason I am such a fan of the interstate highway system. Sure, cross country freeway travel might get repetitive, but you get through the minutia faster. My childhood consisted of trips from Ausin, where I grew up, to Marshall, TX where my grandparents lived. The whole trip albeit 30 miles was on US-79 through every small town downtown. Sometimes it was fun, but after a while and as I grew up, I started to realize all the towns on the trip started to look the same, and the towns started to look the same as any rural drive I took in Texas. This is one of the reasons I don't understand the sad story of the old US highway being bypassed by the interstate and what it did to the town. The interstate helped everyone not have to deal with that town anymore and everyone was happier for it. The few that needed to stop because they were hungry, needed gas or had to use the bathroom will still stop in your town. I have said forever, forcing the cross-country traffic through your precious historic downtown does no good for anyone. The myopia vision is it gets all those motorists to stop at the businesses in the downtown area, when the reality is no one wants to stop at all your stupid trinket stores and one good restaurant that's like every other town's best restaurant on the trip and instead your downtown drag just ends up congested and pedestrians run for their life not to be run over by the 18-wheelers. Most on the road just want to get another 400 miles down the road as quickly as they can so they can get to Wally World.
All this to say, I am not a small-town hater, but they pretty much end up looking the same. Seen one, you seen them all.
I think two things can be true:
1. The interstate system has made travel faster and easier, which for many people is going to be their choice when decided what route to take between two cities.
2. The former route through cities and small towns, can bring variety to a trip and may be a better choice for those who have time time.
An example. When I drive home to Green Bay from Milwaukee, I will take I-43 about 95% of the time. However if I have the time, I will often take WI-57 just because it has a little more variety to the drive.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on January 18, 2023, 10:20:54 AM
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on January 18, 2023, 10:20:54 AM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AM
On the subject of self-driving cars: noooooooooo. I would much rather drive from the aspect of safety and enjoyment. It's way more engaging. Also, I do not trust computers that much. I don't care if jet planes are flown using computers. Cars and planes are not the same with the number of variables.
I know how many times my iPhone wigs out in a day. If that technology was in my car driving for me, no thank you.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AM
Replacing all gas vehicles with electric is nothing more than a politicians' fantasy.
I agree. It's all pandering to the masses and words said to get votes. I have no problem with one day having electric cars usurp gas powered cars, but not today. Not five years from now. Maybe not in my lifetime. The technology just isn't there yet to make them as efficient as gas powered cars for long road trips and when they do figure out how to make an electric car go 400 miles to the charge and the next charge up is 5 to 10 minutes long, there will still be a trial-and-error period before we can all say, yes, this will work. I am all for the electric car succeeding, just don't force it down my throat when you know we are not ready to make the switch any time soon.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on January 18, 2023, 10:28:11 AM
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on January 18, 2023, 10:28:11 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 18, 2023, 10:14:42 AMQuote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 17, 2023, 01:42:10 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 26, 2021, 03:04:36 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 26, 2021, 01:17:52 PM
The overwhelming majority of freeways are boring to drive on.
So are the overwhelming majority of conventional roads, for that matter. The argument for conventional roads is you get to "see more", by which they usually mean more small towns. Small towns are more or less interchangeable and have nothing unique to them that isn't a historic event (which probably isn't going on while you're passing through on the state highway) or some local business (sure, Nellie's Diner makes fantastic fried chicken, but so does Glenda's Diner in a town about the same size that's 50 miles down the road, and about 20 different restaurants in an actual city).
And let's face it, when you're on a trip, you don't have the time to stop in every single small town and learn all about the Oak Resin Rebellion of 1917 (when Jeridida Sawfunkler climbed the grain elevator and declared "No man should have to parallel park on the streets of Goltry!"), or which of the anonymous historic buildings on Main Street (or is it Broadway?) makes the best fried paperclips, or whatever. Most of them are just going to represent a 25 mph zone in between two 65 mph zones that you have to slow down for as you make your way through the historic downtown that will look exactly like the historic downtown of the next 25 mph zone you will encounter eighteen miles down the road.
Freeways at least give you the opportunity to cover distance so you get to actually interesting places faster.
Sorry for the old pull here but read this today and it might be the greatest thing I have ever read. Basically, this is the reason I am such a fan of the interstate highway system. Sure, cross country freeway travel might get repetitive, but you get through the minutia faster. My childhood consisted of trips from Ausin, where I grew up, to Marshall, TX where my grandparents lived. The whole trip albeit 30 miles was on US-79 through every small town downtown. Sometimes it was fun, but after a while and as I grew up, I started to realize all the towns on the trip started to look the same, and the towns started to look the same as any rural drive I took in Texas. This is one of the reasons I don't understand the sad story of the old US highway being bypassed by the interstate and what it did to the town. The interstate helped everyone not have to deal with that town anymore and everyone was happier for it. The few that needed to stop because they were hungry, needed gas or had to use the bathroom will still stop in your town. I have said forever, forcing the cross-country traffic through your precious historic downtown does no good for anyone. The myopia vision is it gets all those motorists to stop at the businesses in the downtown area, when the reality is no one wants to stop at all your stupid trinket stores and one good restaurant that's like every other town's best restaurant on the trip and instead your downtown drag just ends up congested and pedestrians run for their life not to be run over by the 18-wheelers. Most on the road just want to get another 400 miles down the road as quickly as they can so they can get to Wally World.
All this to say, I am not a small-town hater, but they pretty much end up looking the same. Seen one, you seen them all.
I think two things can be true:
1. The interstate system has made travel faster and easier, which for many people is going to be their choice when decided what route to take between two cities.
2. The former route through cities and small towns, can bring variety to a trip and may be a better choice for those who have time.
An example. When I drive home to Green Bay from Milwaukee, I will take I-43 about 95% of the time. However if I have the time, I will often take WI-57 just because it has a little more variety to the drive.
I wish I was wired that way. Many people talk about this back way to get to Corpus Christi from Austin using US-183, SH-80 and US-181. I have contemplated possibly going that way a few times, but I just can't bring myself to do it. I just don't want to slow down for Luling, Nixon, Karnes City and Kenedy. I just can't justify doing it when I can drive interstate the whole way, even if I have to burn. I have always thought that way, but I really think that way now that I am a motorhome driver. The variations in speed are murder when you drive a vehicle that takes forever to get to highway speed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: FrCorySticha on January 18, 2023, 12:19:47 PM
Post by: FrCorySticha on January 18, 2023, 12:19:47 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 18, 2023, 10:20:54 AMQuote from: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AM
On the subject of self-driving cars: noooooooooo. I would much rather drive from the aspect of safety and enjoyment. It's way more engaging. Also, I do not trust computers that much. I don't care if jet planes are flown using computers. Cars and planes are not the same with the number of variables.
I know how many times my iPhone wigs out in a day. If that technology was in my car driving for me, no thank you.Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AM
Replacing all gas vehicles with electric is nothing more than a politicians' fantasy.
I agree. It's all pandering to the masses and words said to get votes. I have no problem with one day having electric cars usurp gas powered cars, but not today. Not five years from now. Maybe not in my lifetime. The technology just isn't there yet to make them as efficient as gas powered cars for long road trips and when they do figure out how to make an electric car go 400 miles to the charge and the next charge up is 5 to 10 minutes long, there will still be a trial-and-error period before we can all say, yes, this will work. I am all for the electric car succeeding, just don't force it down my throat when you know we are not ready to make the switch any time soon.
I have become convinced that electric cars are paralleling internal combustion engine vehicles by about 100 years. 1920's vehicles were nowhere near as reliable as we expect today, and it really wasn't until the 1930's to post-WWII era that cars became ubiquitous and more reliable. EVs are generally mechanically reliable, even more so than ICE vehicles, but the electronic and software technology that runs these cars still has serious reliability gaps.
The infrastructure wasn't there either in the 1920's. Remember that Eisenhower's famous disastrous cross-country trip was in 1919, just 104 years ago. While the road infrastructure is vastly superior to the 1920's, the recharging capabilities are similar to gas stations back then. Staying on major corridors means finding plenty of charging stations, but going onto even important highways within rural areas can be risky. Just as gasoline production and distribution had to ramp up throughout the first half of the 20th century, electricity production and distribution will need a corresponding increase throughout the first half of the 21st century.
I do believe, however, that EVs can and likely will largely replace ICE vehicles within the next 20 years. As the technological and infrastructure problems are resolved, EVs will sell more in cities and suburbs. Rural areas, such as where I live, will likely lag behind in EV adoption, as the infrastructure will be late in developing here.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on January 19, 2023, 12:10:17 AM
Post by: Quillz on January 19, 2023, 12:10:17 AM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AMBoth are supposed to happen in 2035, which is basically code for "politicians saying stuff with no intention of actually following through on them." Both of those statements likely appeal to the primary voting demographic in each state. And I doubt either will ever actually happen. (And even if they do, are easy enough to work around).
Wyoming supposedly wants to place a ban on the sale of all EVs, which is equally as wrong as California banning the sale of all gasoline vehicles.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on January 19, 2023, 12:30:54 AM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on January 19, 2023, 12:30:54 AM
Quote from: Quillz on January 19, 2023, 12:10:17 AMQuote from: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AMBoth are supposed to happen in 2035, which is basically code for "politicians saying stuff with no intention of actually following through on them." Both of those statements likely appeal to the primary voting demographic in each state. And I doubt either will ever actually happen. (And even if they do, are easy enough to work around).
Wyoming supposedly wants to place a ban on the sale of all EVs, which is equally as wrong as California banning the sale of all gasoline vehicles.
California doesn't exactly have a "EV mandate" but rather what CARB defines as "Zero Emission Vehicles" mandate. Under the CARB definition there is a certain percentage of vehicles that can be sold in 2035 in California with ICEs so long as they have plug-in capability. Specifically this is what is cited on the CARB website:
https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/news/california-moves-accelerate-100-new-zero-emission-vehicle-sales-2035
"Plug-in hybrid, full battery-electric and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles count toward an automaker's requirement. PHEVs must have an all-electric range of at least 50 miles under real-world driving conditions. In addition, automakers will be allowed to meet no more than 20% of their overall ZEV requirement with PHEVs.
Battery-electric and fuel cell vehicles will need a minimum range of 150 miles to qualify under the program, include fast-charging ability and come equipped with a charging cord to facilitate charging, and meet new warranty and durability requirements."
All the same, I don't really think the EV market needed to be pushed on consumers. Consumer choice was swinging the direction of EVs without regulation. All regulation is going to do is drive the price up on new vehicles and potentially price certain consumers totally out of the new car market. (Personal aside, the lack of new cars under 25k is particularly disconcerting considering I'm about two years from a daily driver purchase.)
Also worth considering is that California's planned electric grid expansion is largely contingent upon meeting a narrow window for a short term capacity boost by 2035. Paint me skeptical that 15GW worth of floating wind turbine capacity is going to be ready on time:.
https://www.pacbiztimes.com/2022/12/07/u-s-announces-winners-of-morro-bay-offshore-wind-farm-lease-auctions/
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 01:02:53 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 01:02:53 AM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AM
And electric cars are not overall better for the environment. The electricity likely comes from oil or coal.
This is an argument that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If you have an ICE, it can only take the fuel it was built with, usually gasoline. Electricity puts every fuel source in play. Sure, all of the electric cars in Oklahoma City are coal-powered now, because OG&E runs a coal-fired power plant. But if they switch us all over to wind, that converts everyone's car in town to wind in one fell swoop. Or if I want to invest in my home and put a solar panel on my own roof, now my car is solar powered. If I take a trip to Las Vegas, my car is hydroelectrically powered.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: StogieGuy7 on January 19, 2023, 10:16:41 AM
Post by: StogieGuy7 on January 19, 2023, 10:16:41 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 01:02:53 AMQuote from: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AM
And electric cars are not overall better for the environment. The electricity likely comes from oil or coal.
But if they switch us all over to wind, that converts everyone's car in town to wind in one fell swoop. Or if I want to invest in my home and put a solar panel on my own roof, now my car is solar powered. If I take a trip to Las Vegas, my car is hydroelectrically powered.
This will never, ever, ever happen. It's a fantasy. Why? Because there's only so much energy to be obtained from wind. And, at scale, it becomes very inefficient and expensive. Solar is similar. As a source, it cannot be ramped up and down to meet demand; nor can generation be adequately planned or forecast as utilities/grid operators do with coal, gas and nuclear gen stations. In the case of wind, it's not green at all; you just trade the issues of coal or gas (which is very clean, btw) for a source that blights hundreds of square miles with huge, ugly, turbines that often kill birds (including protected species) and which still contain enough hydraulic oil to burst into flame if the malfunction is severe enough.
Now, you'll likely say "oh, this guy watches too much Fox news" or something like that. No, I hardly ever do. Thing is, I have worked for more than one utility as a environmental specialist. I've seen how coal plants aren't as dirty as the media claim and how wind and solar aren't nearly as clean. We used to nurture annual broods of peregrine falcons at my former coal plant. Meanwhile, our company's wind farms in the west had a habit of slaughtering eagles. Like a cuisinart. Each had to be reported to the USDA (fortunately, that was my colleague's task).
And don't even get me started on how each wind turbine can only (at the very best) generate maybe 2 MW of power - under perfect conditions. Which means you need a farm the size of a city to equal the output of a fossil fuel plant sited on maybe 200 acres. The fossil plant can generate several hundred megawatts all day long; the wind farm cannot and never will be able to.
Just a little dose of reality on this.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on January 19, 2023, 10:29:06 AM
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on January 19, 2023, 10:29:06 AM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 19, 2023, 10:16:41 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 01:02:53 AMQuote from: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AM
And electric cars are not overall better for the environment. The electricity likely comes from oil or coal.
But if they switch us all over to wind, that converts everyone's car in town to wind in one fell swoop. Or if I want to invest in my home and put a solar panel on my own roof, now my car is solar powered. If I take a trip to Las Vegas, my car is hydroelectrically powered.
This will never, ever, ever happen. It's a fantasy. Why? Because there's only so much energy to be obtained from wind. And, at scale, it becomes very inefficient and expensive. Solar is similar. As a source, it cannot be ramped up and down to meet demand; nor can generation be adequately planned or forecast as utilities/grid operators do with coal, gas and nuclear gen stations. In the case of wind, it's not green at all; you just trade the issues of coal or gas (which is very clean, btw) for a source that blights hundreds of square miles with huge, ugly, turbines that often kill birds (including protected species) and which still contain enough hydraulic oil to burst into flame if the malfunction is severe enough.
Now, you'll likely say "oh, this guy watches too much Fox news" or something like that. No, I hardly ever do. Thing is, I have worked for more than one utility as a environmental specialist. I've seen how coal plants aren't as dirty as the media claim and how wind and solar aren't nearly as clean. We used to nurture annual broods of peregrine falcons at my former coal plant. Meanwhile, our company's wind farms in the west had a habit of slaughtering eagles. Like a cuisinart. Each had to be reported to the USDA (fortunately, that was my colleague's task).
And don't even get me started on how each wind turbine can only (at the very best) generate maybe 2 MW of power - under perfect conditions. Which means you need a farm the size of a city to equal the output of a fossil fuel plant sited on maybe 200 acres. The fossil plant can generate several hundred megawatts all day long; the wind farm cannot and never will be able to.
Just a little dose of reality on this.
Not to mention to all of this, wind energy is 100% dependent on what God gives you that day. If you need more energy output this week, lets say because there is a heat wave, and your only energy source is wind, and the forecast has absolutely zero wind for a month, you are just stuck with whatever small amount of energy the wind produces. This is the main reason why I don't want to 100% switch to any alternative fuel. It has nothing to do with the environment or that I am a redneck that doesn't want to switch...it's because I see if we put all our eggs in one basket, the results are catastrophic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on January 19, 2023, 11:39:52 AM
Post by: formulanone on January 19, 2023, 11:39:52 AM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AM
And electric cars are not overall better for the environment. The electricity likely comes from oil or coal.
I like I'm repeating myself often on this:
The point is that most ICE vehicles run at about 20-30% efficient with the fuel it uses. Much it is converted to heat waste and frictional losses, of which a fraction of that is used to heat components or exhaust gas recirculation, but that's about it.
A power plant and associated transmission of power is more efficient (levels of 40-70%) because A) it doesn't have to move or go places B) other wastes can be reused so there's greater thermal efficiency C) they're obviously very large things and individual transportation is not.
Don't conflate a modern power plant with being somehow worse than a bunch of 1880s technology in terms of greenhouse gasses and other noxious environmental problems. It's not a perfect solution, but it's a better overall solution for a pollution problem. Even a coal plant is more efficient in using its fuel than the average car is.
If that's not good enough, get walking or take a bike. If the real reason is that you want an exhaust note, its range, and the existing infrastructure that gasoline provides, just say so.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: MultiMillionMiler on January 19, 2023, 11:52:34 AM
Post by: MultiMillionMiler on January 19, 2023, 11:52:34 AM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 19, 2023, 10:16:41 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 01:02:53 AMQuote from: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AM
And electric cars are not overall better for the environment. The electricity likely comes from oil or coal.
But if they switch us all over to wind, that converts everyone's car in town to wind in one fell swoop. Or if I want to invest in my home and put a solar panel on my own roof, now my car is solar powered. If I take a trip to Las Vegas, my car is hydroelectrically powered.
This will never, ever, ever happen. It's a fantasy. Why? Because there's only so much energy to be obtained from wind. And, at scale, it becomes very inefficient and expensive. Solar is similar. As a source, it cannot be ramped up and down to meet demand; nor can generation be adequately planned or forecast as utilities/grid operators do with coal, gas and nuclear gen stations. In the case of wind, it's not green at all; you just trade the issues of coal or gas (which is very clean, btw) for a source that blights hundreds of square miles with huge, ugly, turbines that often kill birds (including protected species) and which still contain enough hydraulic oil to burst into flame if the malfunction is severe enough.
Now, you'll likely say "oh, this guy watches too much Fox news" or something like that. No, I hardly ever do. Thing is, I have worked for more than one utility as a environmental specialist. I've seen how coal plants aren't as dirty as the media claim and how wind and solar aren't nearly as clean. We used to nurture annual broods of peregrine falcons at my former coal plant. Meanwhile, our company's wind farms in the west had a habit of slaughtering eagles. Like a cuisinart. Each had to be reported to the USDA (fortunately, that was my colleague's task).
And don't even get me started on how each wind turbine can only (at the very best) generate maybe 2 MW of power - under perfect conditions. Which means you need a farm the size of a city to equal the output of a fossil fuel plant sited on maybe 200 acres. The fossil plant can generate several hundred megawatts all day long; the wind farm cannot and never will be able to.
Just a little dose of reality on this.
Exactly, and you all the issues with phones/computers failing to charge properly when plugged in, or rolling blackouts. Well, have fun trying to charge your electric car, or plug it in only to find out the next day it didn't charge correctly. Solar powered cars? Have fun when it's cloudy overcast for a week straight. I don't know much about wind farms, but yep, what if there's no wind? I like getting liquid gas because you know the gas is going in, there is no doubt about it. Have work the next day and plug your car in the night before, you are just trusting that it's actually charging and will continue charging, all so you can get 200 miles out of it when with gas I don't usually even think about hitting the pump until after driving 350-425 miles.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CoreySamson on January 19, 2023, 03:18:56 PM
Post by: CoreySamson on January 19, 2023, 03:18:56 PM
Quote from: formulanone on January 19, 2023, 11:39:52 AMBut that asks the question, are batteries better and more efficient at storing and transmitting power than internal combustion? Because if the coal power plant is more efficient than the ICE car but the battery of an electric vehicle is less efficient than the ICE car, we're back at square one. I've heard that capacitors are much more efficient than batteries at transmitting energy, but I don't know specifics.Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AM
And electric cars are not overall better for the environment. The electricity likely comes from oil or coal.
I like I'm repeating myself often on this:
The point is that most ICE vehicles run at about 20-30% efficient with the fuel it uses. Much it is converted to heat waste and frictional losses, of which a fraction of that is used to heat components or exhaust gas recirculation, but that's about it.
A power plant and associated transmission of power is more efficient (levels of 40-70%) because A) it doesn't have to move or go places B) other wastes can be reused so there's greater thermal efficiency C) they're obviously very large things and individual transportation is not.
Don't conflate a modern power plant with being somehow worse than a bunch of 1880s technology in terms of greenhouse gasses and other noxious environmental problems. It's not a perfect solution, but it's a better overall solution for a pollution problem. Even a coal plant is more efficient in using its fuel than the average car is.
If that's not good enough, get walking or take a bike. If the real reason is that you want an exhaust note, it's range, and the existing infrastructure that gasoline provides, just say so.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 03:22:44 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 03:22:44 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 19, 2023, 10:16:41 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 01:02:53 AMQuote from: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AM
And electric cars are not overall better for the environment. The electricity likely comes from oil or coal.
But if they switch us all over to wind, that converts everyone's car in town to wind in one fell swoop. Or if I want to invest in my home and put a solar panel on my own roof, now my car is solar powered. If I take a trip to Las Vegas, my car is hydroelectrically powered.
This will never, ever, ever happen. It's a fantasy. Why? Because there's only so much energy to be obtained from wind.
Dude, I live in Oklahoma.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 19, 2023, 11:52:34 AM
Solar powered cars? Have fun when it's cloudy overcast for a week straight.
Dude, I live in Oklahoma.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 19, 2023, 11:52:34 AM
I don't know much about wind farms, but yep, what if there's no wind?
Dude, I live in Oklahoma.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on January 19, 2023, 03:36:12 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on January 19, 2023, 03:36:12 PM
So I'm unclear, what is the actual unpopular road opinion? I'm kind of gathering there is a consensus concern over PHEV mandates and short term reliance on potential new renewable energy sources?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: MultiMillionMiler on January 19, 2023, 03:38:24 PM
Post by: MultiMillionMiler on January 19, 2023, 03:38:24 PM
I guess if Oklahoma tornados pass close to a windmill, they can harness alot of energy, provided it doesn't destroy the whole structure itself.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on January 19, 2023, 04:00:19 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on January 19, 2023, 04:00:19 PM
I would rather see power generated from lightning striking really tall buildings (the Empire State Building being the obvious one).
I'm serious about this one, unlike MMM.
I'm serious about this one, unlike MMM.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 04:04:13 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 04:04:13 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 19, 2023, 04:00:19 PM
I would rather see power generated from lightning striking really tall buildings (the Empire State Building being the obvious one).
I'm serious about this one, unlike MMM.
Unfortunately, lightning strikes aren't anywhere near common enough to be used as an energy source like that. It would probably take a long time to break even on the cost of setting up such a system.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on January 19, 2023, 04:06:43 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on January 19, 2023, 04:06:43 PM
If only we would have had one of these systems in Tonga a couple years back. (https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/08/weather/tonga-volcano-lightning-buffalo-snow-climate-scn/index.html)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: MultiMillionMiler on January 19, 2023, 04:12:10 PM
Post by: MultiMillionMiler on January 19, 2023, 04:12:10 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 19, 2023, 04:00:19 PM
I would rather see power generated from lightning striking really tall buildings (the Empire State Building being the obvious one).
I'm serious about this one, unlike MMM.
Problem is the bolt only lasts a fraction of a second, so even though you have up to a billion volts, you aren't going to get much current out of that, unless you place an extremely tall metal structure in an area that gets constant thunderstorms, but that is a good idea.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on January 19, 2023, 04:14:41 PM
Post by: formulanone on January 19, 2023, 04:14:41 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on January 19, 2023, 03:18:56 PMQuote from: formulanone on January 19, 2023, 11:39:52 AMBut that asks the question, are batteries better and more efficient at storing and transmitting power than internal combustion? Because if the coal power plant is more efficient than the ICE car but the battery of an electric vehicle is less efficient than the ICE car, we're back at square one. I've heard that capacitors are much more efficient than batteries at transmitting energy, but I don't know specifics.Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AM
And electric cars are not overall better for the environment. The electricity likely comes from oil or coal.
I like I'm repeating myself often on this:
The point is that most ICE vehicles run at about 20-30% efficient with the fuel it uses. Much it is converted to heat waste and frictional losses, of which a fraction of that is used to heat components or exhaust gas recirculation, but that's about it.
A power plant and associated transmission of power is more efficient (levels of 40-70%) because A) it doesn't have to move or go places B) other wastes can be reused so there's greater thermal efficiency C) they're obviously very large things and individual transportation is not.
Don't conflate a modern power plant with being somehow worse than a bunch of 1880s technology in terms of greenhouse gasses and other noxious environmental problems. It's not a perfect solution, but it's a better overall solution for a pollution problem. Even a coal plant is more efficient in using its fuel than the average car is.
If that's not good enough, get walking or take a bike. If the real reason is that you want an exhaust note, it's range, and the existing infrastructure that gasoline provides, just say so.
Well yes, but the batteries have a life expectancy as well. And that's 7-12 years, probably 15 on the higher side. They're really just banks of many smaller rechargeable batteries. In the lifespan of an ICE car, you'd go though 3-5 12V batteries, depending on your climate.
I'm going to on a limb and suggest that the EV battery waste is going to total out to a similar amount of weight as the parts maintenance for an ICE engine's consumables. So that's a push.
If there's suddenly a way to develop longer-lasting electric motors and battery packs, then that would help. If auto manufacturers want to stick with with short lifecycles to move more units, then they'll sit on that development until some player in the industry proceeds to tout that benefit.
There's only been 30 years of serious development on EVs compared 140+ years on the internal combustion engine. This takes time.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on January 19, 2023, 04:34:49 PM
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on January 19, 2023, 04:34:49 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 04:04:13 PMQuote from: 1 on January 19, 2023, 04:00:19 PM
I would rather see power generated from lightning striking really tall buildings (the Empire State Building being the obvious one).
I'm serious about this one, unlike MMM.
Unfortunately, lightning strikes aren't anywhere near common enough to be used as an energy source like that. It would probably take a long time to break even on the cost of setting up such a system.
The main problem is, we still have not found a very effective way to store energy. If we could contain the lightning strike, great, but as it is we have to use it at that instance, or it's gone forever.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: StogieGuy7 on January 19, 2023, 04:54:25 PM
Post by: StogieGuy7 on January 19, 2023, 04:54:25 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 03:22:44 PMQuote from: StogieGuy7 on January 19, 2023, 10:16:41 AM
This will never, ever, ever happen. It's a fantasy. Why? Because there's only so much energy to be obtained from wind.
Dude, I live in Oklahoma.
Doesn't matter. Not even all the wind in the Great Plains can replace all of the fossil fuel and nuke plants. The coal plant where I managed environmental had a peak generating capacity of 765 MW (megawatts); wind turbine units generate between 1 and 2.5 MW each and that's when the wind conditions are just right. Roughly between 18 mph and 30 mph. When it gets above 40 mph, they start shutting them down as it's too much of a physical load on those giant blades. Wind speed is variable; it's not like a boiler that cranks out a set volume of steam to drive the turbines; wind is up and down, so you never get that max capacity. So, they try to compensate by covering entire counties with ugly wind farms. Yet is still doesn't make up for whatever the last coal or gas plant that was shut down would have generated.
So, in summary: wind/solar are never going to be our primary power sources. They'll only ever supplement them. And, with the shutting down of distasteful power plants that upset Greta, there wont be enough generated to support EV charging if that's what we all had. As it is, many grids are already having brownouts during hot weather. It's not climate change doing that; it's climate alarmism.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on January 19, 2023, 05:01:03 PM
Post by: Quillz on January 19, 2023, 05:01:03 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 19, 2023, 03:36:12 PMMine is less an opinion and more that I don't think any of these "2035 mandates" will actually happen. Or necessarily should happen. Let the market and the consumers bring about the changes as appropriate. Maybe it will happen sooner. Or later.
So I'm unclear, what is the actual unpopular road opinion? I'm kind of gathering there is a consensus concern over PHEV mandates and short term reliance on potential new renewable energy sources?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on January 19, 2023, 05:04:44 PM
Post by: Quillz on January 19, 2023, 05:04:44 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 19, 2023, 04:54:25 PMAnd energy grids also fail in Texas when the weather is cold.
As it is, many grids are already having brownouts during hot weather.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 05:18:15 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 05:18:15 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 19, 2023, 04:54:25 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 03:22:44 PMQuote from: StogieGuy7 on January 19, 2023, 10:16:41 AM
This will never, ever, ever happen. It's a fantasy. Why? Because there's only so much energy to be obtained from wind.
Dude, I live in Oklahoma.
Doesn't matter. Not even all the wind in the Great Plains can replace all of the fossil fuel and nuke plants.
That would be a problem if someone was advocating doing that, but as far as I know nobody who actually knows what they're doing has and probably never will. Usually you see things like wind and solar paired with a "base load" generator that is something less reliant on variable conditions.
Las Vegas is a great example. They're getting a ton of electricity from solar these days. But that's paired with hydroelectric output from Hoover Dam. (Obviously that will be a huge issue if the Colorado River keeps declining to the point it can't spin the turbines anymore, but so long as the river is healthy it works well.)
New York burns all of their trash and spins the turbines with that. This releases CO2 into the atmosphere but apparently it's less than the CO2 and CH4 that would be released if it were allowed to decompose organically.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on January 19, 2023, 05:25:35 PM
Post by: Quillz on January 19, 2023, 05:25:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 05:18:15 PMI would add that it seems the people who really make these decisions also understand you use a mix of fossil fuels and renewable. Even the most politically extreme states in either spectrum don't actually intend to go all-in on just one option. Politicians make noise, that's their job. The actual implementation of these things always seems to be more in the middle.Quote from: StogieGuy7 on January 19, 2023, 04:54:25 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 03:22:44 PMQuote from: StogieGuy7 on January 19, 2023, 10:16:41 AM
This will never, ever, ever happen. It's a fantasy. Why? Because there's only so much energy to be obtained from wind.
Dude, I live in Oklahoma.
Doesn't matter. Not even all the wind in the Great Plains can replace all of the fossil fuel and nuke plants.
That would be a problem if someone was advocating doing that, but as far as I know nobody who actually knows what they're doing has and probably never will. Usually you see things like wind and solar paired with a "base load" generator that is something less reliant on variable conditions.
Las Vegas is a great example. They're getting a ton of electricity from solar these days. But that's paired with hydroelectric output from Hoover Dam. (Obviously that will be a huge issue if the Colorado River keeps declining to the point it can't spin the turbines anymore, but so long as the river is healthy it works well.)
New York burns all of their trash and spins the turbines with that. This releases CO2 into the atmosphere but apparently it's less than the CO2 and CH4 that would be released if it were allowed to decompose organically.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: thenetwork on January 19, 2023, 11:17:32 PM
Post by: thenetwork on January 19, 2023, 11:17:32 PM
IMHO, I think the best energy-efficient cars are the hybrids. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid that regularly gets 40-50 per gallon. When I fill up, I can go to the nearest gas station and fill my 10-11 gallon tank in under.5 minutes -- no waiting in lines 98% of the time.
So to sum up:
* 45 MPG
* I don't have to find a specific place to "refuel/recharge"
* I don't have to remember to "plug" my car in every night at home
* I am using less fossil fuel than most vehicles that run on gas only.
BTW, I have yet to see our government create something for consumers that is so good, there is a line of people that forms to get it without being pressured.
In other words, if the government were to solely create the technology for smart phones or iPhones, we'd likely be going back to technology and products from 20-25 years ago , as we'd be hung up on so much red tape and be stuck with sub-par products that nobody would want, and the government would be losing money, not profiting, on their product like the phone manufacturers of today.
So to sum up:
* 45 MPG
* I don't have to find a specific place to "refuel/recharge"
* I don't have to remember to "plug" my car in every night at home
* I am using less fossil fuel than most vehicles that run on gas only.
BTW, I have yet to see our government create something for consumers that is so good, there is a line of people that forms to get it without being pressured.
In other words, if the government were to solely create the technology for smart phones or iPhones, we'd likely be going back to technology and products from 20-25 years ago , as we'd be hung up on so much red tape and be stuck with sub-par products that nobody would want, and the government would be losing money, not profiting, on their product like the phone manufacturers of today.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 11:23:05 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 11:23:05 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on January 19, 2023, 11:17:32 PM
BTW, I have yet to see our government create something for consumers that is so good, there is a line of people that forms to get it without being pressured.
Never seen a backed-up on-ramp? Or the inside of the post office?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Bruce on January 19, 2023, 11:44:21 PM
Post by: Bruce on January 19, 2023, 11:44:21 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on January 19, 2023, 11:17:32 PM
BTW, I have yet to see our government create something for consumers that is so good, there is a line of people that forms to get it without being pressured.
National parks routinely have long lines. No one is forcing to go to them.
Public transit has lines and people camp out for hours before a new rail station opens to get to be first. No one is forcing people to use it, even if there's heavy encouragement through development and reducing car dominance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: pderocco on January 20, 2023, 04:36:29 AM
Post by: pderocco on January 20, 2023, 04:36:29 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 03:22:44 PMQuote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 19, 2023, 11:52:34 AM
I don't know much about wind farms, but yep, what if there's no wind?
Dude, I live in Oklahoma.
I heard somewhere that it comes sweeping down the plain.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: pderocco on January 20, 2023, 04:41:26 AM
Post by: pderocco on January 20, 2023, 04:41:26 AM
Quote from: Bruce on January 19, 2023, 11:44:21 PMQuote from: thenetwork on January 19, 2023, 11:17:32 PM
BTW, I have yet to see our government create something for consumers that is so good, there is a line of people that forms to get it without being pressured.
National parks routinely have long lines. No one is forcing to go to them.
No, they're forcing people to wait in line to pay for admission, instead of just driving in without stopping.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on January 20, 2023, 06:51:40 AM
Post by: Rothman on January 20, 2023, 06:51:40 AM
Quote from: pderocco on January 20, 2023, 04:41:26 AMHow dare they. Next, you'll tell me they're limiting the daily number of visitors at some parks. </s>Quote from: Bruce on January 19, 2023, 11:44:21 PMQuote from: thenetwork on January 19, 2023, 11:17:32 PM
BTW, I have yet to see our government create something for consumers that is so good, there is a line of people that forms to get it without being pressured.
National parks routinely have long lines. No one is forcing to go to them.
No, they're forcing people to wait in line to pay for admission, instead of just driving in without stopping.
Makes me think of Disney, Cedar Fair and Six Flags. They shouldn't make people line up, either.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: MultiMillionMiler on January 20, 2023, 01:59:25 PM
Post by: MultiMillionMiler on January 20, 2023, 01:59:25 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 20, 2023, 06:51:40 AMQuote from: pderocco on January 20, 2023, 04:41:26 AMHow dare they. Next, you'll tell me they're limiting the daily number of visitors at some parks. </s>Quote from: Bruce on January 19, 2023, 11:44:21 PMQuote from: thenetwork on January 19, 2023, 11:17:32 PM
BTW, I have yet to see our government create something for consumers that is so good, there is a line of people that forms to get it without being pressured.
National parks routinely have long lines. No one is forcing to go to them.
No, they're forcing people to wait in line to pay for admission, instead of just driving in without stopping.
Makes me think of Disney, Cedar Fair and Six Flags. They shouldn't make people line up, either.
As a rollercoaster enthusiast, I have to say, Cedar fair operations are much more efficient than six flags. The line is always moving, and they can crank out 25-30 trains an hour. Six flags no one knows what the hell they are doing, you'll have 6-7 people at one station trying to figure out what some stupid technical issue is on a panel, or it'll take them 15+ minutes to get you some slices of pizza. National parks should have toll by mail entrances for drivers so they don't have to stop and pay in cash one at a time.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on January 20, 2023, 03:05:45 PM
Post by: Quillz on January 20, 2023, 03:05:45 PM
That depends on the park. The ones in Alaska have no gates, no admission, but also no real infrastructure. Then ones like Lassen have virtually no lines dependent on the time of year. (Went there in August and there was just two cars ahead of me).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: swake on January 20, 2023, 04:36:46 PM
Post by: swake on January 20, 2023, 04:36:46 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2023, 01:02:53 AMQuote from: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AM
And electric cars are not overall better for the environment. The electricity likely comes from oil or coal.
This is an argument that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If you have an ICE, it can only take the fuel it was built with, usually gasoline. Electricity puts every fuel source in play. Sure, all of the electric cars in Oklahoma City are coal-powered now, because OG&E runs a coal-fired power plant. But if they switch us all over to wind, that converts everyone's car in town to wind in one fell swoop. Or if I want to invest in my home and put a solar panel on my own roof, now my car is solar powered. If I take a trip to Las Vegas, my car is hydroelectrically powered.
Power in Oklahoma is not "all coal", it's actually very little coal. Coal makes up only 7% of the power in Oklahoma. Natural Gas is the leader with 47%. Wind and Hydo make up 46%. And that's NOW.
https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=OK#tabs-4
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on January 20, 2023, 05:25:17 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on January 20, 2023, 05:25:17 PM
Quote from: Quillz on January 20, 2023, 03:05:45 PM
That depends on the park. The ones in Alaska have no gates, no admission, but also no real infrastructure. Then ones like Lassen have virtually no lines dependent on the time of year. (Went there in August and there was just two cars ahead of me).
I'd make the argument some places that are National Parks would have been popular no matter what. I don't see crowds not going to places like Yosemite in the hypothetical scenario the NPS doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on January 20, 2023, 08:12:51 PM
Post by: Rothman on January 20, 2023, 08:12:51 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 20, 2023, 05:25:17 PMMakes you wonder if the crowds would be smaller if they weren't national parks in some cases.Quote from: Quillz on January 20, 2023, 03:05:45 PM
That depends on the park. The ones in Alaska have no gates, no admission, but also no real infrastructure. Then ones like Lassen have virtually no lines dependent on the time of year. (Went there in August and there was just two cars ahead of me).
I'd make the argument some places that are National Parks would have been popular no matter what. I don't see crowds not going to places like Yosemite in the hypothetical scenario the NPS doesn't exist.
Before Yosemite was a national park, there was a small hodgepodge of outfitters and the like. Given its remote location, maybe a lesser level of services would have actually kept crowds down.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on January 20, 2023, 08:14:12 PM
Post by: Rothman on January 20, 2023, 08:14:12 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 20, 2023, 01:59:25 PMI thought you had only been on the Fury 325 at Carowinds over and over...Quote from: Rothman on January 20, 2023, 06:51:40 AMQuote from: pderocco on January 20, 2023, 04:41:26 AMHow dare they. Next, you'll tell me they're limiting the daily number of visitors at some parks. </s>Quote from: Bruce on January 19, 2023, 11:44:21 PMQuote from: thenetwork on January 19, 2023, 11:17:32 PM
BTW, I have yet to see our government create something for consumers that is so good, there is a line of people that forms to get it without being pressured.
National parks routinely have long lines. No one is forcing to go to them.
No, they're forcing people to wait in line to pay for admission, instead of just driving in without stopping.
Makes me think of Disney, Cedar Fair and Six Flags. They shouldn't make people line up, either.
As a rollercoaster enthusiast, I have to say, Cedar fair operations are much more efficient than six flags. The line is always moving, and they can crank out 25-30 trains an hour. Six flags no one knows what the hell they are doing, you'll have 6-7 people at one station trying to figure out what some stupid technical issue is on a panel, or it'll take them 15+ minutes to get you some slices of pizza. National parks should have toll by mail entrances for drivers so they don't have to stop and pay in cash one at a time.
Integration with DMV databases and the like is tricky, even for those toll authorities.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on January 20, 2023, 08:28:55 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on January 20, 2023, 08:28:55 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 20, 2023, 08:12:51 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 20, 2023, 05:25:17 PMMakes you wonder if the crowds would be smaller if they weren't national parks in some cases.Quote from: Quillz on January 20, 2023, 03:05:45 PM
That depends on the park. The ones in Alaska have no gates, no admission, but also no real infrastructure. Then ones like Lassen have virtually no lines dependent on the time of year. (Went there in August and there was just two cars ahead of me).
I'd make the argument some places that are National Parks would have been popular no matter what. I don't see crowds not going to places like Yosemite in the hypothetical scenario the NPS doesn't exist.
Before Yosemite was a national park, there was a small hodgepodge of outfitters and the like. Given its remote location, maybe a lesser level of services would have actually kept crowds down.
That's my assumption. Private interests were already moving in on Yosemite well before the Park Service was a thing. The main thing the Park Service brought to the table was improving the infrastructure to enhance visitor experience. I envision a scenario where no Wawona Tunnel, new Big Oak Flat Road and new Tioga Road get built as they are now. There would still be roads, but they would way more primitive or possibly come to even maintained by the state eventually. I could even envision a scenario with a more active Forest Service role.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: MultiMillionMiler on January 20, 2023, 09:09:53 PM
Post by: MultiMillionMiler on January 20, 2023, 09:09:53 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 20, 2023, 08:14:12 PMQuote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 20, 2023, 01:59:25 PMI thought you had only been on the Fury 325 at Carowinds over and over...Quote from: Rothman on January 20, 2023, 06:51:40 AMQuote from: pderocco on January 20, 2023, 04:41:26 AMHow dare they. Next, you'll tell me they're limiting the daily number of visitors at some parks. </s>Quote from: Bruce on January 19, 2023, 11:44:21 PMQuote from: thenetwork on January 19, 2023, 11:17:32 PM
BTW, I have yet to see our government create something for consumers that is so good, there is a line of people that forms to get it without being pressured.
National parks routinely have long lines. No one is forcing to go to them.
No, they're forcing people to wait in line to pay for admission, instead of just driving in without stopping.
Makes me think of Disney, Cedar Fair and Six Flags. They shouldn't make people line up, either.
As a rollercoaster enthusiast, I have to say, Cedar fair operations are much more efficient than six flags. The line is always moving, and they can crank out 25-30 trains an hour. Six flags no one knows what the hell they are doing, you'll have 6-7 people at one station trying to figure out what some stupid technical issue is on a panel, or it'll take them 15+ minutes to get you some slices of pizza. National parks should have toll by mail entrances for drivers so they don't have to stop and pay in cash one at a time.
Integration with DMV databases and the like is tricky, even for those toll authorities.
Yeah, and Carowinds is a cedar fair park. It was better than the two six flags I've been to in my life.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JoePCool14 on January 21, 2023, 08:22:16 AM
Post by: JoePCool14 on January 21, 2023, 08:22:16 AM
Quote from: formulanone on January 19, 2023, 11:39:52 AMQuote from: JoePCool14 on January 18, 2023, 09:37:08 AM
And electric cars are not overall better for the environment. The electricity likely comes from oil or coal.
I like I'm repeating myself often on this:
The point is that most ICE vehicles run at about 20-30% efficient with the fuel it uses. Much it is converted to heat waste and frictional losses, of which a fraction of that is used to heat components or exhaust gas recirculation, but that's about it.
A power plant and associated transmission of power is more efficient (levels of 40-70%) because A) it doesn't have to move or go places B) other wastes can be reused so there's greater thermal efficiency C) they're obviously very large things and individual transportation is not.
Don't conflate a modern power plant with being somehow worse than a bunch of 1880s technology in terms of greenhouse gasses and other noxious environmental problems. It's not a perfect solution, but it's a better overall solution for a pollution problem. Even a coal plant is more efficient in using its fuel than the average car is.
If that's not good enough, get walking or take a bike. If the real reason is that you want an exhaust note, its range, and the existing infrastructure that gasoline provides, just say so.
I agree that ICEs are not the most efficient means of producing energy. Clearly there's wasted energy. However, batteries that sit gradually lose their charge. I can see that on my phone and laptop if I don't use them for a few days. Imagine the same for a car. Meanwhile, gasoline goes bad after several months. There's also other points of waste in the system as others have mentioned. In the end, you might be trading one loss for another.
Please don't make the argument about "get walking or take a bike". Maybe you were joking with this one, but I'm not walking or biking to my job that's 10+ miles away. That's not practical. Also, I live near Chicago, so I have the cold weather to contend with. And no, I'm not interested in working remotely every day.
I didn't mention in my previous post, but yes, I'm of course biased towards hearing an engine and being able to fill up with gas quickly. The former is just preference that doesn't mean anything, but the latter is genuinely important to the debate. I'll assume that charging infrastructure (not energy production, just charger availability) will continue to improve over time.
When it comes to solar power, in Chicago I think I'd have to write solar off as being feasible at a large scale. The past two months have been almost nothing but clouds, all day, every day. Sometimes we have some sunshine in the morning, but that's it. I know some solar energy can still get through, however, not enough to justify it. Wind has its own issues that have been hashed out already.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on January 22, 2023, 10:02:08 AM
Post by: formulanone on January 22, 2023, 10:02:08 AM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 21, 2023, 08:22:16 AM
Please don't make the argument about "get walking or take a bike". Maybe you were joking with this one, but I'm not walking or biking to my job that's 10+ miles away. That's not practical. Also, I live near Chicago, so I have the cold weather to contend with. And no, I'm not interested in working remotely every day.
This was more of a explanation for those expecting a near-zero-waste form of transportation, which is naturally impossible. Just when I hear all sorts of arguments why they think that full-electric is somehow on par with ICE emissions or contributes to more waste. It isn't practical for everyone.
Personally, there's a really lack of "feeling" with electric cars that takes some getting used to. But like most discussions about technology on the internet, I feel we're beating this issue down much swifter than the rate of any advancements can improve it, which always makes it seem more glacial than it really is.
(I'm anything, I'm one of the highest contributors to CO2 on this entire forum, so I shouldn't be one to talk.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: J N Winkler on January 22, 2023, 11:56:30 AM
Post by: J N Winkler on January 22, 2023, 11:56:30 AM
Back in the days when misc.transport.road was still active and received frequent crossposts from alt.planning.urban and misc.transport.urban-transit, someone tried to argue that the "real" environmental burden of bicycling (taking into account the fossil fuels required to produce and transport the food the bicyclist eats, using current production and logistics networks) corresponded to fuel efficiency of about 50 MPG.
I didn't necessarily buy the argument--it was clearly intended to serve the interests of the cars-über-alles contrarian tendency on APU and MTU-T--but it does illustrate how sensitive this type of analysis is to starting assumptions.
I didn't necessarily buy the argument--it was clearly intended to serve the interests of the cars-über-alles contrarian tendency on APU and MTU-T--but it does illustrate how sensitive this type of analysis is to starting assumptions.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Bruce on January 23, 2023, 01:45:56 AM
Post by: Bruce on January 23, 2023, 01:45:56 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 22, 2023, 11:56:30 AM
Back in the days when misc.transport.road was still active and received frequent crossposts from alt.planning.urban and misc.transport.urban-transit, someone tried to argue that the "real" environmental burden of bicycling (taking into account the fossil fuels required to produce and transport the food the bicyclist eats, using current production and logistics networks) corresponded to fuel efficiency of about 50 MPG.
As if motorists don't need to eat...this is by far the dumbest argument (along with "cyclists breathe more and contribute to CO2 emissions that way").
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: US 89 on January 24, 2023, 01:41:10 AM
Post by: US 89 on January 24, 2023, 01:41:10 AM
Quote from: Bruce on January 23, 2023, 01:45:56 AMQuote from: J N Winkler on January 22, 2023, 11:56:30 AM
Back in the days when misc.transport.road was still active and received frequent crossposts from alt.planning.urban and misc.transport.urban-transit, someone tried to argue that the "real" environmental burden of bicycling (taking into account the fossil fuels required to produce and transport the food the bicyclist eats, using current production and logistics networks) corresponded to fuel efficiency of about 50 MPG.
As if motorists don't need to eat...this is by far the dumbest argument (along with "cyclists breathe more and contribute to CO2 emissions that way").
I mean, it's a dumb argument in the context of CO2 emissions, but regular cyclists presumably do have a higher daily calorie need than the average person.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: on_wisconsin on January 24, 2023, 02:45:30 AM
Post by: on_wisconsin on January 24, 2023, 02:45:30 AM
Current sign materials are almost always better than the button copy and porcelain of yesteryear...
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: J N Winkler on January 24, 2023, 12:49:52 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on January 24, 2023, 12:49:52 PM
Quote from: US 89 on January 24, 2023, 01:41:10 AMQuote from: Bruce on January 23, 2023, 01:45:56 AMQuote from: J N Winkler on January 22, 2023, 11:56:30 AMBack in the days when misc.transport.road was still active and received frequent crossposts from alt.planning.urban and misc.transport.urban-transit, someone tried to argue that the "real" environmental burden of bicycling (taking into account the fossil fuels required to produce and transport the food the bicyclist eats, using current production and logistics networks) corresponded to fuel efficiency of about 50 MPG.
As if motorists don't need to eat...this is by far the dumbest argument (along with "cyclists breathe more and contribute to CO2 emissions that way").
I mean, it's a dumb argument in the context of CO2 emissions, but regular cyclists presumably do have a higher daily calorie need than the average person.
It was a shitpost before we had that word to describe it. One of many other things that would have to be taken into account if the calculation were done in earnest would be the reduction in doctor visits for the bicyclist, since exercise improves health.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Fredddie on January 24, 2023, 01:05:44 PM
Post by: Fredddie on January 24, 2023, 01:05:44 PM
The MUTCD should incorporate Vienna Convention signing practices, but not totally replace the MUTCD. Blue circles for mandatory instructions. Triangles for extra emphasis.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: skluth on January 24, 2023, 02:04:06 PM
Post by: skluth on January 24, 2023, 02:04:06 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 20, 2023, 08:28:55 PMQuote from: Rothman on January 20, 2023, 08:12:51 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 20, 2023, 05:25:17 PMMakes you wonder if the crowds would be smaller if they weren't national parks in some cases.Quote from: Quillz on January 20, 2023, 03:05:45 PM
That depends on the park. The ones in Alaska have no gates, no admission, but also no real infrastructure. Then ones like Lassen have virtually no lines dependent on the time of year. (Went there in August and there was just two cars ahead of me).
I'd make the argument some places that are National Parks would have been popular no matter what. I don't see crowds not going to places like Yosemite in the hypothetical scenario the NPS doesn't exist.
Before Yosemite was a national park, there was a small hodgepodge of outfitters and the like. Given its remote location, maybe a lesser level of services would have actually kept crowds down.
That's my assumption. Private interests were already moving in on Yosemite well before the Park Service was a thing. The main thing the Park Service brought to the table was improving the infrastructure to enhance visitor experience. I envision a scenario where no Wawona Tunnel, new Big Oak Flat Road and new Tioga Road get built as they are now. There would still be roads, but they would way more primitive or possibly come to even maintained by the state eventually. I could even envision a scenario with a more active Forest Service role.
I'd argue the main thing the park service did was remove private commercial interests from destroying the best parts of Yosemite. Ranchers were using the valley meadows for grazing, unscrupulous entrepreneurs were claiming exclusive rights to feed and house visitors, and loggers were happily cutting down the redwoods before the government put a stop to it. The park's popularity was increasing before the NPS came in and removed those exploiting the park for their own purposes. They also kicked out local native Americans who inhabited the land. The better infrastructure came later (though I agree that it is also important) but it's not like Yosemite wasn't already becoming popular before the NPS.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Chris19001 on January 24, 2023, 04:57:41 PM
Post by: Chris19001 on January 24, 2023, 04:57:41 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 24, 2023, 02:04:06 PMThat is similar to my take away from Yosemite's history as well. Loggers were chopping those sequoia's down to sell as matchsticks and there was simply nothing in place to stop it. I believe the soldiers sent in to protect the park were civil war veterans giving names to the General Grant and General Sherman trees. For those disinterested, those tree groves are utterly incredible in person and only mature after many hundreds of years.
I'd argue the main thing the park service did was remove private commercial interests from destroying the best parts of Yosemite. Ranchers were using the valley meadows for grazing, unscrupulous entrepreneurs were claiming exclusive rights to feed and house visitors, and loggers were happily cutting down the redwoods before the government put a stop to it. The park's popularity was increasing before the NPS came in and removed those exploiting the park for their own purposes. They also kicked out local native Americans who inhabited the land. The better infrastructure came later (though I agree that it is also important) but it's not like Yosemite wasn't already becoming popular before the NPS.
Anyway, the government does have a role to play in guiding priorities along whether it be clear air/water, science behind GPS, or insurance regulation. Say what you will, but the private market is interested in profit, not the "public" good in the end.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on January 24, 2023, 05:19:16 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 24, 2023, 05:19:16 PM
Quote from: Fredddie on January 24, 2023, 01:05:44 PM
The MUTCD should incorporate Vienna Convention signing practices, but not totally replace the MUTCD. Blue circles for mandatory instructions. Triangles for extra emphasis.
The problem is that the triangle blank has half of the area of the diamond blank. That means either you need a really big triangle or a really tiny symbol.
The diamond is in the Vienna Convention as an option, though, so you don't necessarily have to use the triangle if you use the Vienna Convention.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Fredddie on January 24, 2023, 10:59:35 PM
Post by: Fredddie on January 24, 2023, 10:59:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 24, 2023, 05:19:16 PMThat is true, but my point is that a red and white triangle in a sea of yellow diamonds would stick out.Quote from: Fredddie on January 24, 2023, 01:05:44 PMThe problem is that the triangle blank has half of the area of the diamond blank. That means either you need a really big triangle or a really tiny symbol.
The MUTCD should incorporate Vienna Convention signing practices, but not totally replace the MUTCD. Blue circles for mandatory instructions. Triangles for extra emphasis.
The diamond is in the Vienna Convention as an option, though, so you don't necessarily have to use the triangle if you use the Vienna Convention.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on January 25, 2023, 04:25:39 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 25, 2023, 04:25:39 AM
Quote from: Fredddie on January 24, 2023, 10:59:35 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on January 24, 2023, 05:19:16 PMThat is true, but my point is that a red and white triangle in a sea of yellow diamonds would stick out.Quote from: Fredddie on January 24, 2023, 01:05:44 PMThe problem is that the triangle blank has half of the area of the diamond blank. That means either you need a really big triangle or a really tiny symbol.
The MUTCD should incorporate Vienna Convention signing practices, but not totally replace the MUTCD. Blue circles for mandatory instructions. Triangles for extra emphasis.
The diamond is in the Vienna Convention as an option, though, so you don't necessarily have to use the triangle if you use the Vienna Convention.
Why not do a red and white diamond, if that's what you're going for? (Yes, that's not allowed by either convention, but if we're mixing and matching already...)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Tom958 on January 25, 2023, 07:44:48 AM
Post by: Tom958 on January 25, 2023, 07:44:48 AM
Trucks shouldn't use right-side climbing lanes. Instead, more agile vehicles should use such lanes to pass slower vehicles on the right. That way, truck drivers wouldn't have to worry about rude or oblivious motorists interfering with their efforts to merge at the end of the climbing lane. The other way to deal with the merging problem would be for the left, passing lane to be the one that ends, but I'm militantly opposed to forced rightward merges and that won't work if there are two or more mainline lanes.
I came up with this during a several-week period during which that barely-needed climbing lane on southbound I-75 near Kennesaw, GA was on my commute. A good many people were using it that way anyway. Hilariously, on one occasion, everyone was in the mainline lanes except for an Amazon 18-wheeler passing everyone else on the right.
I came up with this during a several-week period during which that barely-needed climbing lane on southbound I-75 near Kennesaw, GA was on my commute. A good many people were using it that way anyway. Hilariously, on one occasion, everyone was in the mainline lanes except for an Amazon 18-wheeler passing everyone else on the right.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Dirt Roads on January 25, 2023, 12:12:31 PM
Post by: Dirt Roads on January 25, 2023, 12:12:31 PM
Quote from: Tom958 on January 25, 2023, 07:44:48 AM
Trucks shouldn't use right-side climbing lanes. Instead, more agile vehicles should use such lanes to pass slower vehicles on the right. That way, truck drivers wouldn't have to worry about rude or oblivious motorists interfering with their efforts to merge at the end of the climbing lane. The other way to deal with the merging problem would be for the left, passing lane to be the one that ends, but I'm militantly opposed to forced rightward merges and that won't work if there are two or more mainline lanes.
I came up with this during a several-week period during which that barely-needed climbing lane on southbound I-75 near Kennesaw, GA was on my commute. A good many people were using it that way anyway. Hilariously, on one occasion, everyone was in the mainline lanes except for an Amazon 18-wheeler passing everyone else on the right.
On two-lane upgrades, NCDOT still has a number of climbing lanes that do not end; rather the left lane ends and has to merge back in with the climbing lane. This allows the climbing lane to be signed with "Keep Right Except to Pass". But the headache is that the same "rude or oblivious motorists" still aggressively pass at the last minute.
This is closely related to my pet peeve about on-ramps. It seems like almost anytime that somebody [driving 80MPH in a 65MPH zone] moves left to create a gap for somebody else coming up to the merge point, a string of traffic [driving at 90MPH+++] moves right and takes over. Since many of these folks are using adaptive cruise control, I've been wondering what would happen if someone actually merged in front of them at 65MPH. The third car back is gonna smack something.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hbelkins on January 25, 2023, 01:40:35 PM
Post by: hbelkins on January 25, 2023, 01:40:35 PM
Kentucky almost exclusively uses right-lane-ends signage and pavement markings on its truck climbing lanes.
On non-freeways, West Virginia likes to end the left lane and have traffic merge to the right.
On non-freeways, West Virginia likes to end the left lane and have traffic merge to the right.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: VTGoose on March 29, 2023, 08:17:27 AM
Post by: VTGoose on March 29, 2023, 08:17:27 AM
Landscape designers hate drivers.
This is evidenced at street intersections and especially in large parking lots (like for a mall) by the placement of trees, shrubs, and other plantings that block the view of oncoming traffic.
This is evidenced at street intersections and especially in large parking lots (like for a mall) by the placement of trees, shrubs, and other plantings that block the view of oncoming traffic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on March 29, 2023, 09:28:13 AM
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on March 29, 2023, 09:28:13 AM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on January 25, 2023, 12:12:31 PMColorado is sort of inconsistent about this, where they do the 3-lane uphills. Close to me, on US 287 NB out of Fort Collins, on the first hill, you're 'defaulted' into the right lane, while a passing lane opens up to the left. You can also see an example of this at the bottom of the west side of Rabbit Ears Pass.Quote from: Tom958 on January 25, 2023, 07:44:48 AM
Trucks shouldn't use right-side climbing lanes. Instead, more agile vehicles should use such lanes to pass slower vehicles on the right. That way, truck drivers wouldn't have to worry about rude or oblivious motorists interfering with their efforts to merge at the end of the climbing lane. The other way to deal with the merging problem would be for the left, passing lane to be the one that ends, but I'm militantly opposed to forced rightward merges and that won't work if there are two or more mainline lanes.
I came up with this during a several-week period during which that barely-needed climbing lane on southbound I-75 near Kennesaw, GA was on my commute. A good many people were using it that way anyway. Hilariously, on one occasion, everyone was in the mainline lanes except for an Amazon 18-wheeler passing everyone else on the right.
On two-lane upgrades, NCDOT still has a number of climbing lanes that do not end; rather the left lane ends and has to merge back in with the climbing lane. This allows the climbing lane to be signed with "Keep Right Except to Pass". But the headache is that the same "rude or oblivious motorists" still aggressively pass at the last minute.
This is closely related to my pet peeve about on-ramps. It seems like almost anytime that somebody [driving 80MPH in a 65MPH zone] moves left to create a gap for somebody else coming up to the merge point, a string of traffic [driving at 90MPH+++] moves right and takes over. Since many of these folks are using adaptive cruise control, I've been wondering what would happen if someone actually merged in front of them at 65MPH. The third car back is gonna smack something.
287: https://goo.gl/maps/78gjJfCcoCeqZzVP9 (https://goo.gl/maps/78gjJfCcoCeqZzVP9)
Rabbit Ears: https://goo.gl/maps/6z2i9AFc5mziQnjM9 (https://goo.gl/maps/6z2i9AFc5mziQnjM9)
(Also, fun fact: if someone has to turn at this point, NO one wins. You're either coming off the pass at like 80 and have to stand on 'em, or you're trying to flog it to get speed up for the hill, and have to abort. You can 'sorta' go around, but it's not recommended.
At the top of the hill, where it returns to two lanes, it's the right lane that ends.
But it's not always the case. Some places, like on CO 93, it's an acceleration lane that continues up a hill after a light/intersection. Shortly after the light, ther's a KRETP sign, and everyone that went straight through the light (is supposed to) merge right. Muddy Pass (US 40 @ CO 14) is a good example of this as well.
Muddy Pass: https://goo.gl/maps/Stbw2aYJJ6fMSNtW6 (https://goo.gl/maps/Stbw2aYJJ6fMSNtW6)
Other places, what was a climbing lane, becomes a turn lane if there's a light/intersection at the top of the hill. See Berthoud Pass for an example.
Berthoud Pass: https://goo.gl/maps/12fk6qLv4tExG22T9 (https://goo.gl/maps/12fk6qLv4tExG22T9)
This gets REAL confusing when you can't see the lines because of snow.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 29, 2023, 09:48:23 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 29, 2023, 09:48:23 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 20, 2023, 05:25:17 PMQuote from: Quillz on January 20, 2023, 03:05:45 PM
That depends on the park. The ones in Alaska have no gates, no admission, but also no real infrastructure. Then ones like Lassen have virtually no lines dependent on the time of year. (Went there in August and there was just two cars ahead of me).
I'd make the argument some places that are National Parks would have been popular no matter what. I don't see crowds not going to places like Yosemite in the hypothetical scenario the NPS doesn't exist.
While undoubtedly there would still be tourists to those areas, I think A LOT of people are attracted to national parks because they are national parks. I think the NPS does a great job preserving the natural beauty of these places, creating hiking trails, roads, campsites, etc. I think most people view the national parks as high-quality experiences.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Bickendan on March 31, 2023, 12:21:40 AM
Post by: Bickendan on March 31, 2023, 12:21:40 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on March 29, 2023, 09:28:13 AM
Rabbit Ears: https://goo.gl/maps/6z2i9AFc5mziQnjM9 (https://goo.gl/maps/6z2i9AFc5mziQnjM9)
Six standalone mailboxes and a CBU? At that point, the property owners should just put in a second CBU and replace the six mailboxes since the mail carrier has to dismount anyway for the first.
...unless that CBU is the replacement, then in that case what was wrong with the boxes?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:47:52 AM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:47:52 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 29, 2023, 09:48:23 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 20, 2023, 05:25:17 PMQuote from: Quillz on January 20, 2023, 03:05:45 PM
That depends on the park. The ones in Alaska have no gates, no admission, but also no real infrastructure. Then ones like Lassen have virtually no lines dependent on the time of year. (Went there in August and there was just two cars ahead of me).
I'd make the argument some places that are National Parks would have been popular no matter what. I don't see crowds not going to places like Yosemite in the hypothetical scenario the NPS doesn't exist.
While undoubtedly there would still be tourists to those areas, I think A LOT of people are attracted to national parks because they are national parks. I think the NPS does a great job preserving the natural beauty of these places, creating hiking trails, roads, campsites, etc. I think most people view the national parks as high-quality experiences.
Anymore it seems like people view certain national parks more as "status symbols" than anything else. They want to post all over their social media with obnoxious photos of them standing in front of some well known geographic feature and say we went to X for our family vacation. Even if they were functionally just part of an 8 hour rolling traffic jam gate to gate they will tell people how they went to the "wild" of Yellowstone and back it up with a photo of the kids standing in front of the canyon. The "popular" parks these days have become tourist traps that ceased to be fun or enjoyable except in the off season, if the park even still has one. On the other hand, the numerically more numerous "unpopular" parks are almost devoid of people. The last time I was in Yellowstone the road was indistinguishable from rush hour I-95, but I've been to several other NPS facilities (not all are "parks" but lets not sweat that distinction), battlefields and whatnot and hardly anyone was there, even though most were close to major population centers and far more accessible.
Perhaps the truest words of national parks are these that a more poetic man once wrote
They call it paradise
I don't know why
You call someplace paradise
Kiss it goodbye
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on March 31, 2023, 07:05:15 AM
Post by: Rothman on March 31, 2023, 07:05:15 AM
Although I think HighwayStar's description is too harsh (obnoxious photos...pfft, people have been sharing vacation photos and slides since the invention of the camera), I do think the NPS should establish visitation quotas. Been to 272 NPS sites so far myself.
Makes me think of Acadia, where the free portion of the park, including Cadillac Mountain, is overrun and the crowds along the paid portion of the tour road are fewer in number. Last time I was there, the difference was surprising.
Makes me think of Acadia, where the free portion of the park, including Cadillac Mountain, is overrun and the crowds along the paid portion of the tour road are fewer in number. Last time I was there, the difference was surprising.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on March 31, 2023, 07:56:09 AM
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on March 31, 2023, 07:56:09 AM
Quote from: Bickendan on March 31, 2023, 12:21:40 AMNot sure it's related, but Steamboat has had mail carrier problems for a while now.Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on March 29, 2023, 09:28:13 AM
Rabbit Ears: https://goo.gl/maps/6z2i9AFc5mziQnjM9 (https://goo.gl/maps/6z2i9AFc5mziQnjM9)
Six standalone mailboxes and a CBU? At that point, the property owners should just put in a second CBU and replace the six mailboxes since the mail carrier has to dismount anyway for the first.
...unless that CBU is the replacement, then in that case what was wrong with the boxes?
I *hate* that intersection. Every time I've driven through there, someone has to turn. Really harshes the hill for me. I drive a rather underpowered car (4-cyl
'99 Camry), so when approaching this hill, I tend to have my foot near the floor so as to get all I can before starting up the hill.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 31, 2023, 08:49:01 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 31, 2023, 08:49:01 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:47:52 AMQuote from: SEWIGuy on March 29, 2023, 09:48:23 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 20, 2023, 05:25:17 PMQuote from: Quillz on January 20, 2023, 03:05:45 PM
That depends on the park. The ones in Alaska have no gates, no admission, but also no real infrastructure. Then ones like Lassen have virtually no lines dependent on the time of year. (Went there in August and there was just two cars ahead of me).
I'd make the argument some places that are National Parks would have been popular no matter what. I don't see crowds not going to places like Yosemite in the hypothetical scenario the NPS doesn't exist.
While undoubtedly there would still be tourists to those areas, I think A LOT of people are attracted to national parks because they are national parks. I think the NPS does a great job preserving the natural beauty of these places, creating hiking trails, roads, campsites, etc. I think most people view the national parks as high-quality experiences.
Anymore it seems like people view certain national parks more as "status symbols" than anything else. They want to post all over their social media with obnoxious photos of them standing in front of some well known geographic feature and say we went to X for our family vacation. Even if they were functionally just part of an 8 hour rolling traffic jam gate to gate they will tell people how they went to the "wild" of Yellowstone and back it up with a photo of the kids standing in front of the canyon. The "popular" parks these days have become tourist traps that ceased to be fun or enjoyable except in the off season, if the park even still has one. On the other hand, the numerically more numerous "unpopular" parks are almost devoid of people. The last time I was in Yellowstone the road was indistinguishable from rush hour I-95, but I've been to several other NPS facilities (not all are "parks" but lets not sweat that distinction), battlefields and whatnot and hardly anyone was there, even though most were close to major population centers and far more accessible.
Perhaps the truest words of national parks are these that a more poetic man once wrote
They call it paradise
I don't know why
You call someplace paradise
Kiss it goodbye
I have been to plenty of national parks, never posted my visits to social media, and have rarely been inconvenienced by crowds.
You complain about the weirdest stuff.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on March 31, 2023, 08:52:47 AM
Post by: formulanone on March 31, 2023, 08:52:47 AM
Concerning parks and other places, Let People Enjoy Things is my mantra.
Most people's expectations are always by distorted by reality (isn't that why we travel? ...not for experiencing the predictable), people with children can't always pick random off-season vacation times, 95 percent of nuisances are usually caused by 5 percent of the population, the crowds pay the bills, and who are you to judge what gets photographed?
Most people's expectations are always by distorted by reality (isn't that why we travel? ...not for experiencing the predictable), people with children can't always pick random off-season vacation times, 95 percent of nuisances are usually caused by 5 percent of the population, the crowds pay the bills, and who are you to judge what gets photographed?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: wanderer2575 on March 31, 2023, 09:14:15 AM
Post by: wanderer2575 on March 31, 2023, 09:14:15 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 31, 2023, 08:49:01 AMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:47:52 AMQuote from: SEWIGuy on March 29, 2023, 09:48:23 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 20, 2023, 05:25:17 PMQuote from: Quillz on January 20, 2023, 03:05:45 PM
That depends on the park. The ones in Alaska have no gates, no admission, but also no real infrastructure. Then ones like Lassen have virtually no lines dependent on the time of year. (Went there in August and there was just two cars ahead of me).
I'd make the argument some places that are National Parks would have been popular no matter what. I don't see crowds not going to places like Yosemite in the hypothetical scenario the NPS doesn't exist.
While undoubtedly there would still be tourists to those areas, I think A LOT of people are attracted to national parks because they are national parks. I think the NPS does a great job preserving the natural beauty of these places, creating hiking trails, roads, campsites, etc. I think most people view the national parks as high-quality experiences.
Anymore it seems like people view certain national parks more as "status symbols" than anything else. They want to post all over their social media with obnoxious photos of them standing in front of some well known geographic feature and say we went to X for our family vacation. Even if they were functionally just part of an 8 hour rolling traffic jam gate to gate they will tell people how they went to the "wild" of Yellowstone and back it up with a photo of the kids standing in front of the canyon. The "popular" parks these days have become tourist traps that ceased to be fun or enjoyable except in the off season, if the park even still has one. On the other hand, the numerically more numerous "unpopular" parks are almost devoid of people. The last time I was in Yellowstone the road was indistinguishable from rush hour I-95, but I've been to several other NPS facilities (not all are "parks" but lets not sweat that distinction), battlefields and whatnot and hardly anyone was there, even though most were close to major population centers and far more accessible.
Perhaps the truest words of national parks are these that a more poetic man once wrote
They call it paradise
I don't know why
You call someplace paradise
Kiss it goodbye
I have been to plenty of national parks, never posted my visits to social media, and have rarely been inconvenienced by crowds.
You complain about the weirdest stuff.
Depends where you go. My visits are to less popular park sites during the off-season. But if you want to drive to the peak of Cadillac Mountain in Acadia NP in the summer, or hike Old Rag Mountain in Shenandoah NP in the fall, you'll be inconvenienced, starting with the reservations. Yes, you need to make reservations.
I agree with HighwayStar that a lot of people visiting popular national parks do so just to say they were there, whether to make a splash on social media or simply for their own personal satisfaction, but their idea of "roughing it" and becoming one with nature is renting a bedded cabin that has only one electrical outlet or walking from the parking lot to the scenic overlook platform. I'm not judging it; I'm just making the observation.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on March 31, 2023, 09:19:12 AM
Post by: webny99 on March 31, 2023, 09:19:12 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 31, 2023, 07:05:15 AM
Makes me think of Acadia, where the free portion of the park, including Cadillac Mountain, is overrun and the crowds along the paid portion of the tour road are fewer in number. Last time I was there, the difference was surprising.
Cadillac Mountain was very busy when I visited (in 2021), but it wasn't free. We had to buy tickets well in advance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hbelkins on March 31, 2023, 10:26:37 AM
Post by: hbelkins on March 31, 2023, 10:26:37 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 31, 2023, 09:14:15 AM
I agree with HighwayStar that a lot of people visiting popular national parks do so just to say they were there, whether to make a splash on social media or simply for their own personal satisfaction, but their idea of "roughing it" and becoming one with nature is renting a bedded cabin that has only one electrical outlet or walking from the parking lot to the scenic overlook platform. I'm not judging it; I'm just making the observation.
I'm from an era when social media wasn't around for most of my life. Trust me, the crowds at places like Grand Canyon and Yellowstone and Mt. Rushmore were just as bad in the 1990s as they are now, and no one was posting about their exploits on Facebook or Instagram.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 31, 2023, 12:17:04 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 31, 2023, 12:17:04 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 31, 2023, 09:14:15 AMQuote from: SEWIGuy on March 31, 2023, 08:49:01 AMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:47:52 AMQuote from: SEWIGuy on March 29, 2023, 09:48:23 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 20, 2023, 05:25:17 PMQuote from: Quillz on January 20, 2023, 03:05:45 PM
That depends on the park. The ones in Alaska have no gates, no admission, but also no real infrastructure. Then ones like Lassen have virtually no lines dependent on the time of year. (Went there in August and there was just two cars ahead of me).
I'd make the argument some places that are National Parks would have been popular no matter what. I don't see crowds not going to places like Yosemite in the hypothetical scenario the NPS doesn't exist.
While undoubtedly there would still be tourists to those areas, I think A LOT of people are attracted to national parks because they are national parks. I think the NPS does a great job preserving the natural beauty of these places, creating hiking trails, roads, campsites, etc. I think most people view the national parks as high-quality experiences.
Anymore it seems like people view certain national parks more as "status symbols" than anything else. They want to post all over their social media with obnoxious photos of them standing in front of some well known geographic feature and say we went to X for our family vacation. Even if they were functionally just part of an 8 hour rolling traffic jam gate to gate they will tell people how they went to the "wild" of Yellowstone and back it up with a photo of the kids standing in front of the canyon. The "popular" parks these days have become tourist traps that ceased to be fun or enjoyable except in the off season, if the park even still has one. On the other hand, the numerically more numerous "unpopular" parks are almost devoid of people. The last time I was in Yellowstone the road was indistinguishable from rush hour I-95, but I've been to several other NPS facilities (not all are "parks" but lets not sweat that distinction), battlefields and whatnot and hardly anyone was there, even though most were close to major population centers and far more accessible.
Perhaps the truest words of national parks are these that a more poetic man once wrote
They call it paradise
I don't know why
You call someplace paradise
Kiss it goodbye
I have been to plenty of national parks, never posted my visits to social media, and have rarely been inconvenienced by crowds.
You complain about the weirdest stuff.
Depends where you go. My visits are to less popular park sites during the off-season. But if you want to drive to the peak of Cadillac Mountain in Acadia NP in the summer, or hike Old Rag Mountain in Shenandoah NP in the fall, you'll be inconvenienced, starting with the reservations. Yes, you need to make reservations.
I agree with HighwayStar that a lot of people visiting popular national parks do so just to say they were there, whether to make a splash on social media or simply for their own personal satisfaction, but their idea of "roughing it" and becoming one with nature is renting a bedded cabin that has only one electrical outlet or walking from the parking lot to the scenic overlook platform. I'm not judging it; I'm just making the observation.
I love the national parks. But there aint no way I am sleeping in something that's more rustic than a hotel. That's OK too. Why wouldn't it be?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:20:04 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:20:04 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 31, 2023, 10:26:37 AMQuote from: wanderer2575 on March 31, 2023, 09:14:15 AM
I agree with HighwayStar that a lot of people visiting popular national parks do so just to say they were there, whether to make a splash on social media or simply for their own personal satisfaction, but their idea of "roughing it" and becoming one with nature is renting a bedded cabin that has only one electrical outlet or walking from the parking lot to the scenic overlook platform. I'm not judging it; I'm just making the observation.
I'm from an era when social media wasn't around for most of my life. Trust me, the crowds at places like Grand Canyon and Yellowstone and Mt. Rushmore were just as bad in the 1990s as they are now, and no one was posting about their exploits on Facebook or Instagram.
The data says otherwise. The furthest back records go for Yellowstone are from 1991, but in that year there were under 3 million visits. The average across the last 7 years or so is over 4 million.
That may not sound like much, but it means the parks are now 33% more crowded.
But its worse than that. Not only are more people going, but they are going less and less for the genuine experience of the park and more and more for the purpose of posting about it on the internet. You said it yourself, "no one was posting about their exploits on Facebook or Instagram", they were going for different reasons.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:28:41 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: formulanone on March 31, 2023, 08:52:47 AM
Concerning parks and other places, Let People Enjoy Things is my mantra.
Most people's expectations are always by distorted by reality (isn't that why we travel? ...not for experiencing the predictable), people with children can't always pick random off-season vacation times, 95 percent of nuisances are usually caused by 5 percent of the population, the crowds pay the bills, and who are you to judge what gets photographed?
Crowds create the bills that need to be paid in the first place.
If Yellowstone had no infrastructure there would be no few bills.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 31, 2023, 02:36:23 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 31, 2023, 02:36:23 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:20:04 PMQuote from: hbelkins on March 31, 2023, 10:26:37 AMQuote from: wanderer2575 on March 31, 2023, 09:14:15 AM
I agree with HighwayStar that a lot of people visiting popular national parks do so just to say they were there, whether to make a splash on social media or simply for their own personal satisfaction, but their idea of "roughing it" and becoming one with nature is renting a bedded cabin that has only one electrical outlet or walking from the parking lot to the scenic overlook platform. I'm not judging it; I'm just making the observation.
I'm from an era when social media wasn't around for most of my life. Trust me, the crowds at places like Grand Canyon and Yellowstone and Mt. Rushmore were just as bad in the 1990s as they are now, and no one was posting about their exploits on Facebook or Instagram.
The data says otherwise. The furthest back records go for Yellowstone are from 1991, but in that year there were under 3 million visits. The average across the last 7 years or so is over 4 million.
That may not sound like much, but it means the parks are now 33% more crowded.
But its worse than that. Not only are more people going, but they are going less and less for the genuine experience of the park and more and more for the purpose of posting about it on the internet. You said it yourself, "no one was posting about their exploits on Facebook or Instagram", they were going for different reasons.
Unless you have proof of the bolded, its just more of your nonsense.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 02:41:34 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 02:41:34 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:20:04 PM
they are going less and less for the genuine experience of the park and more and more for the purpose of posting about it on the internet.
Bullshit. Just because they post about it on social media, that doesn't mean that's the reason they went in the first place.
If my wife and I go out on a date, and she takes a picture of it to post on Facebook, that doesn't mean she only went out with me to post about it on Facebook.
By your reasoning, the only reason my parents took me to national parks when I was a child was so they could put the pictures in a photo album to show guests later on. Or that the only reason John Cook led expeditions in the Pacific in the 18th Century is so he could write journals about it for people to read 240 years later.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:48:48 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:48:48 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 02:41:34 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:20:04 PM
they are going less and less for the genuine experience of the park and more and more for the purpose of posting about it on the internet.
Bullshit. Just because they post about it on social media, that doesn't mean that's the reason they went in the first place.
If my wife and I go out on a date, and she takes a picture of it to post on Facebook, that doesn't mean she only went out with me to post about it on Facebook.
By your reasoning, the only reason my parents took me to national parks when I was a child was so they could put the pictures in a photo album to show guests later on. Or that the only reason John Cook led expeditions in the Pacific in the 18th Century is so he could write journals about it for people to read 240 years later.
My point is not that because people take photos they only want them for sharing. It is that I have seen/know plenty of people who will go to a National Park and spend the entire time trying to get a perfect "Instagram" photo while ignoring the park around them.
Hell, there was a Simpsons episode not long back lampooning this behavior, so I know I'm not the only one to observe it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 31, 2023, 02:51:46 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 31, 2023, 02:51:46 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:48:48 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 02:41:34 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:20:04 PM
they are going less and less for the genuine experience of the park and more and more for the purpose of posting about it on the internet.
Bullshit. Just because they post about it on social media, that doesn't mean that's the reason they went in the first place.
If my wife and I go out on a date, and she takes a picture of it to post on Facebook, that doesn't mean she only went out with me to post about it on Facebook.
By your reasoning, the only reason my parents took me to national parks when I was a child was so they could put the pictures in a photo album to show guests later on. Or that the only reason John Cook led expeditions in the Pacific in the 18th Century is so he could write journals about it for people to read 240 years later.
My point is not that because people take photos they only want them for sharing. It is that I have seen/know plenty of people who will go to a National Park and spend the entire time trying to get a perfect "Instagram" photo while ignoring the park around them.
You're lying.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:52:48 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:52:48 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 31, 2023, 02:51:46 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:48:48 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 02:41:34 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:20:04 PM
they are going less and less for the genuine experience of the park and more and more for the purpose of posting about it on the internet.
Bullshit. Just because they post about it on social media, that doesn't mean that's the reason they went in the first place.
If my wife and I go out on a date, and she takes a picture of it to post on Facebook, that doesn't mean she only went out with me to post about it on Facebook.
By your reasoning, the only reason my parents took me to national parks when I was a child was so they could put the pictures in a photo album to show guests later on. Or that the only reason John Cook led expeditions in the Pacific in the 18th Century is so he could write journals about it for people to read 240 years later.
My point is not that because people take photos they only want them for sharing. It is that I have seen/know plenty of people who will go to a National Park and spend the entire time trying to get a perfect "Instagram" photo while ignoring the park around them.
You're lying.
Ohh I'm not. And trust me, I wish those people didn't exist, but burying my head in the sand won't change that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 02:56:04 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 02:56:04 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:48:48 PM
I have seen/know plenty of people who will go to a National Park and spend the entire time trying to get a perfect "Instagram" photo while ignoring the park around them.
They've told you this? Or you accompanied them? How do you know?
And, call me skeptical, but how many of these people do you know? I'm curious to see you quantify "plenty of people".
I'm not doubting there are people who do this. But I doubt they represent anything but a small minority of visitors. During my last several visits to national parks, I can't recall seeing anyone who fits your caricature. Perhaps the closest thing would be a couple of young ladies who travel the country in their outfitted vehicle and post about their travels online; even there, though, they stayed the night in the campground, and I believe they did at least some hiking. Everyone else I've encountered has been there to hike, to relax, to get away with friends or coworkers for the weekend, to enjoy the scenery–you know, exactly the same reasons as thirty years ago.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:48:48 PM
Hell, there was a Simpsons episode not long back lampooning this behavior, so I know I'm not the only one to observe it.
Exactly, it's lampooning. It's an exaggeration. It's taking a small nugget of truth on the periphery of reality and blowing it out of proportion for comedic effect.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 03:04:07 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 03:04:07 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 02:56:04 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:48:48 PM
I have seen/know plenty of people who will go to a National Park and spend the entire time trying to get a perfect "Instagram" photo while ignoring the park around them.
They've told you this? Or you accompanied them? How do you know?
And, call me skeptical, but how many of these people do you know? I'm curious to see you quantify "plenty of people".
I'm not doubting there are people who do this. But I doubt they represent anything but a small minority of visitors. During my last several visits to national parks, I can't recall seeing anyone who fits your caricature. Perhaps the closest thing would be a couple of young ladies who travel the country in their outfitted vehicle and post about their travels online; even there, though, they stayed the night in the campground, and I believe they did at least some hiking. Everyone else I've encountered has been there to hike, to relax, to get away with friends or coworkers for the weekend, to enjoy the scenery–you know, exactly the same reasons as thirty years ago.Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:48:48 PM
Hell, there was a Simpsons episode not long back lampooning this behavior, so I know I'm not the only one to observe it.
Exactly, it's lampooning. It's an exaggeration. It's taking a small nugget of truth on the periphery of reality and blowing it out of proportion for comedic effect.
Mixture of both. People I have traveled with, sometimes just talked to. And often you can tell by their trip photos. Someone goes to what is supposedly a great natural wonder, and they are in every photo, often blocking half of the thing out of view. Its clear its about them not the place.
Lampooning is not inherently a small nugget of truth, sometimes its the opposite, a broad social phenomenon that is portrayed satirically to mock it, even though most people consider it a normal part of life (at least in that place and time). Plenty of well known works in this category as well.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 31, 2023, 03:09:52 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 31, 2023, 03:09:52 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:52:48 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on March 31, 2023, 02:51:46 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:48:48 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 02:41:34 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:20:04 PM
they are going less and less for the genuine experience of the park and more and more for the purpose of posting about it on the internet.
Bullshit. Just because they post about it on social media, that doesn't mean that's the reason they went in the first place.
If my wife and I go out on a date, and she takes a picture of it to post on Facebook, that doesn't mean she only went out with me to post about it on Facebook.
By your reasoning, the only reason my parents took me to national parks when I was a child was so they could put the pictures in a photo album to show guests later on. Or that the only reason John Cook led expeditions in the Pacific in the 18th Century is so he could write journals about it for people to read 240 years later.
My point is not that because people take photos they only want them for sharing. It is that I have seen/know plenty of people who will go to a National Park and spend the entire time trying to get a perfect "Instagram" photo while ignoring the park around them.
You're lying.
Ohh I'm not. And trust me, I wish those people didn't exist, but burying my head in the sand won't change that.
Yeah you are.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 03:14:12 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 03:14:12 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 03:04:07 PM
And often you can tell by their trip photos. Someone goes to what is supposedly a great natural wonder, and they are in every photo, often blocking half of the thing out of view. Its clear its about them not the place.
Bullshit. Taking a picture of my family with the natural wonder in the background doesn't mean I only went there to take a picture. I visit the place in order to see the beauty; I take a picture while I'm there in order to document and remember the visit.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 03:04:07 PM
People I have traveled with, sometimes just talked to.
So, of the people you've talked to, they actually told you the only reason they went was to post pictures on social media?
It sounds to me like you just don't like people who take a lot of pictures. Or people who frame their pictures differently than you would.
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 02:56:04 PM
And, call me skeptical, but how many of these people do you know? I'm curious to see you quantify "plenty of people".
Again, please quantify.
How many people have you accompanied to a national park, who did nothing except take pictures and then leave? Not a moment spent taking in the beauty without snapping pictures? Arrive, take pictures, leave as fast as possible? How many?
How many people have you talked to, who said the only reason they visited a national park was to post pictures online? How many?
How many people's pictures have you seen, and you could magically tell how much of their time was spent taking pictures and how much time was spent enjoying the beauty away from the camera's viewfinder? How many?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 03:35:20 PM
Post by: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 03:35:20 PM
Another take:
Taking selfies of every single activity of a person's life and posting it online is... well... how the younger generation lives. It's just what they do. So yeah, now they're taking selfies while they're at a national park and posting them on social media. Every time they take a break on the trail, out come the camera phones. Every step of the way setting up their tent, out come the camera phones. You're lucky they don't post pictures of their used toilet paper. But, you know what? That just means they're choosing to do that in an area of great natural beauty instead of at Starbucks or in each other's basements. Why? Because they want to be surrounded by the beauty. They want to see the place. They want to experience the place. And that, my fellow middle-ager, is the way they see and experience the world. Just get used to it.
Taking selfies of every single activity of a person's life and posting it online is... well... how the younger generation lives. It's just what they do. So yeah, now they're taking selfies while they're at a national park and posting them on social media. Every time they take a break on the trail, out come the camera phones. Every step of the way setting up their tent, out come the camera phones. You're lucky they don't post pictures of their used toilet paper. But, you know what? That just means they're choosing to do that in an area of great natural beauty instead of at Starbucks or in each other's basements. Why? Because they want to be surrounded by the beauty. They want to see the place. They want to experience the place. And that, my fellow middle-ager, is the way they see and experience the world. Just get used to it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on March 31, 2023, 05:23:32 PM
Post by: Rothman on March 31, 2023, 05:23:32 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 31, 2023, 09:19:12 AMAh yes, they have a ticket system now.Quote from: Rothman on March 31, 2023, 07:05:15 AM
Makes me think of Acadia, where the free portion of the park, including Cadillac Mountain, is overrun and the crowds along the paid portion of the tour road are fewer in number. Last time I was there, the difference was surprising.
Cadillac Mountain was very busy when I visited (in 2021), but it wasn't free. We had to buy tickets well in advance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on March 31, 2023, 05:27:04 PM
Post by: Rothman on March 31, 2023, 05:27:04 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 03:04:07 PMQuote from: kphoger on March 31, 2023, 02:56:04 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:48:48 PM
I have seen/know plenty of people who will go to a National Park and spend the entire time trying to get a perfect "Instagram" photo while ignoring the park around them.
They've told you this? Or you accompanied them? How do you know?
And, call me skeptical, but how many of these people do you know? I'm curious to see you quantify "plenty of people".
I'm not doubting there are people who do this. But I doubt they represent anything but a small minority of visitors. During my last several visits to national parks, I can't recall seeing anyone who fits your caricature. Perhaps the closest thing would be a couple of young ladies who travel the country in their outfitted vehicle and post about their travels online; even there, though, they stayed the night in the campground, and I believe they did at least some hiking. Everyone else I've encountered has been there to hike, to relax, to get away with friends or coworkers for the weekend, to enjoy the scenery–you know, exactly the same reasons as thirty years ago.Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:48:48 PM
Hell, there was a Simpsons episode not long back lampooning this behavior, so I know I'm not the only one to observe it.
Exactly, it's lampooning. It's an exaggeration. It's taking a small nugget of truth on the periphery of reality and blowing it out of proportion for comedic effect.
Mixture of both. People I have traveled with, sometimes just talked to. And often you can tell by their trip photos. Someone goes to what is supposedly a great natural wonder, and they are in every photo, often blocking half of the thing out of view. Its clear its about them not the place.
What's it to you?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on March 31, 2023, 07:42:13 PM
Post by: formulanone on March 31, 2023, 07:42:13 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:20:04 PM
The data says otherwise. The furthest back records go for Yellowstone are from 1991, but in that year there were under 3 million visits. The average across the last 7 years or so is over 4 million.
That may not sound like much, but it means the parks are now 33% more crowded.
Also in that trend: people are living longer, still tired of being indoors, enjoy seeing things they can't get back home, tourism is a thing, travel is still desirable, and people are up all night to get lucky, ergo...even more people.
It might be a few million more years until the next national park or Great Beautiful Amazing Geologic Thing is actually formed.
Quote
But its worse than that. Not only are more people going, but they are going less and less for the genuine experience of the park and more and more for the purpose of posting about it on the internet. You said it yourself, "no one was posting about their exploits on Facebook or Instagram", they were going for different reasons.
Again, how are you to decide how someone enjoys something? I betcha more people are sharing their experiences around a fireplace than around a slide projector.
Quote from: formulanone on June 07, 2022, 05:29:45 PMThe big fallacy comes from the masses thinking that because one doesn't take the same risks as another individual, that they are somehow not living a complete life or surpassing the same artificial thresholds. It could be they're more adept at handling their individual goals or living this silly game by another interpretation of the rule book.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on April 01, 2023, 08:24:34 AM
Post by: Quillz on April 01, 2023, 08:24:34 AM
Never understood the mentality of "people should visit national parks and never share it on the Internet." Why does it matter to you if someone goes to a national park and shares it on Instagram? Like, seriously, who cares? I've gone to plenty of places where half the time, it's just getting there that I enjoy, less so the actual destination. Is my experience somehow not genuine or less fulfilling than someone else's?
Guess what... people like to use the Internet and share their experiences. It harms no one. Frankly it works as great advertising for the national parks.
Guess what... people like to use the Internet and share their experiences. It harms no one. Frankly it works as great advertising for the national parks.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on April 01, 2023, 10:09:24 AM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on April 01, 2023, 10:09:24 AM
Quote from: Quillz on April 01, 2023, 08:24:34 AM
Never understood the mentality of "people should visit national parks and never share it on the Internet." Why does it matter to you if someone goes to a national park and shares it on Instagram? Like, seriously, who cares? I've gone to plenty of places where half the time, it's just getting there that I enjoy, less so the actual destination. Is my experience somehow not genuine or less fulfilling than someone else's?
Guess what... people like to use the Internet and share their experiences. It harms no one. Frankly it works as great advertising for the national parks.
A lot of people who are into hiking are also not keen on sharing and try to play keep away games.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on April 01, 2023, 05:55:07 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on April 01, 2023, 05:55:07 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2023, 02:28:41 PM
If Yellowstone had no infrastructure there would be no few bills.
Bullshit. You still need to pay for the park rangers that keep the lands protected. (And they need infrastructure to do that job.)
The Bureau of Land Management owns a shit ton of land with minimal infrastructure, most of which isn't open to the public, and their proposed budget this year is $1.7 billion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Molandfreak on April 01, 2023, 08:11:10 PM
Post by: Molandfreak on April 01, 2023, 08:11:10 PM
Attempting to reach places that are only passable by foot is becoming more popular, not less. It's the reason why the bus from Into the Wild was removed from the Stampede Trail.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hbelkins on April 01, 2023, 08:55:24 PM
Post by: hbelkins on April 01, 2023, 08:55:24 PM
I honestly don't understand the selfie culture. It's even consumed people my age. They post pictures of themselves all over social media. If I ever post a selfie of myself in the middle of a roundabout saying "I love these things," then it's time to commit me to the asylum.
(Just trying to steer this back on topic, as my dislike of roundabouts seems to be a rather unpopular opinion.)
(Just trying to steer this back on topic, as my dislike of roundabouts seems to be a rather unpopular opinion.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on April 01, 2023, 10:11:10 PM
Post by: Quillz on April 01, 2023, 10:11:10 PM
I like roundabouts, I think they are a good idea. I do think they are implemented in places that don't really need them, though. I think where they work best is places that had non-standard junctions (CA-154/CA-246 comes to mind). And lo and behold, that's one of the best implementations of a roundabout I can think of.
As for selfies, I rarely take them. Sometimes if it's something that's a personal accomplishment of mine (like when I made it to the top of Lassen Peak some years ago), I'll take one. If it's just me in some random spot, not really seeing the point there. But if people want to post them online, whatever, not an issue for me.
As for selfies, I rarely take them. Sometimes if it's something that's a personal accomplishment of mine (like when I made it to the top of Lassen Peak some years ago), I'll take one. If it's just me in some random spot, not really seeing the point there. But if people want to post them online, whatever, not an issue for me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on April 01, 2023, 10:47:03 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on April 01, 2023, 10:47:03 PM
I spent a great many years not taking pictures of road and hiking stuff. I had a digital camera in the early 2000s but thought "who the hell would want to see road and hiking photos?" My Dad was big on Polaroid photos of roads, I should have known he was onto something since it would become popular in the modern era.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Molandfreak on April 02, 2023, 02:55:37 PM
Post by: Molandfreak on April 02, 2023, 02:55:37 PM
I have a neutral opinion about roundabouts. A well-placed one can be really nice and better than a four-way stop, but I don't like the mini ones that replaced traffic lights in city centers, because the street system simply wasn't designed for them. They're also used as a cost cutting crutch a lot of the time where something else is really needed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on April 02, 2023, 03:49:14 PM
Post by: Quillz on April 02, 2023, 03:49:14 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on April 02, 2023, 02:55:37 PMI'm pretty much the same, that's what I meant with my earlier post. The smaller ones are more unofficial stop signs than anything else. The ones in more rural places that replaced junctions that met at angles, those are great. I was in Alaska recently and they've done a good job of implementing them, I think. Quite a few in the Anchorage area, some others out near Fairbanks/North Pole. In California, there is one that is part of the I-80/CA-89 in Truckee. You can go straight onto CA-89, another functions as the on-ramp to I-80. A similar setup is done in the Arcata area, just past the CA-299 junction. All of these are well done.
I have a neutral opinion about roundabouts. A well-placed one can be really nice and better than a four-way stop, but I don't like the mini ones that replaced traffic lights in city centers, because the street system simply wasn't designed for them. They're also used as a cost cutting crutch a lot of the time where something else is really needed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CrystalWalrein on April 03, 2023, 05:08:55 PM
Post by: CrystalWalrein on April 03, 2023, 05:08:55 PM
I actually like roundabouts. However, New Jersey-style traffic circles that don't require giving way to traffic in the circle are the bane of my existence.
I also like Clearview, but only on guide signage. Using it on warning or regulatory signage appears garish. It's a pretty font, but it's no Frutiger or Transport.
Perhaps the one thing that might get me burnt at the stake is that I dislike North Carolina's push to label nearly every freeway as an Interstate. I-42 should be a 3-digit spur of I-40 at best, and I-87 serves no purpose as I don't expect it to be built over the marshes to Virginia Beach. I-73 and I-74 are best off as US highways; I have no qualms about a freeway between the Tobacco Corridor and Wilmington being US 220. I suspect that this Interstate push is a long-winded attempt to secure more federal funding.
I also like Clearview, but only on guide signage. Using it on warning or regulatory signage appears garish. It's a pretty font, but it's no Frutiger or Transport.
Perhaps the one thing that might get me burnt at the stake is that I dislike North Carolina's push to label nearly every freeway as an Interstate. I-42 should be a 3-digit spur of I-40 at best, and I-87 serves no purpose as I don't expect it to be built over the marshes to Virginia Beach. I-73 and I-74 are best off as US highways; I have no qualms about a freeway between the Tobacco Corridor and Wilmington being US 220. I suspect that this Interstate push is a long-winded attempt to secure more federal funding.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: sprjus4 on April 03, 2023, 11:14:27 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on April 03, 2023, 11:14:27 PM
Quote from: CrystalWalrein on April 03, 2023, 05:08:55 PMWut
and I-87 serves no purpose as I don't expect it to be built over the marshes to Virginia Beach.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: algorerhythms on April 04, 2023, 12:09:23 AM
Post by: algorerhythms on April 04, 2023, 12:09:23 AM
Of course I-87 serves a purpose. How else are you supposed to drive from New York to Montreal?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on April 04, 2023, 05:55:58 AM
Post by: Quillz on April 04, 2023, 05:55:58 AM
Quote from: CrystalWalrein on April 03, 2023, 05:08:55 PMSee, I like Clearview fully. The issue I had with it early on wasn't the font in of itself, but it was being thrown onto signs that didn't cater to its specs, or you'd have some elements in Highway Gothic, and others in Clearview. Once newer signs started to be fully Clearview and make some adjustments to account for the spacing differences and what not, Clearview looks just fine.
I also like Clearview, but only on guide signage. Using it on warning or regulatory signage appears garish. It's a pretty font, but it's no Frutiger or Transport.
Alaska in particular seems to do a really good job. I was there a couple months ago and it seems that almost all the signs on the Kenai Peninsula are in Clearview now, and they looked really good. Not information overload, no mixture of different fonts, just Clearview. I see it very rarely here in California. And then other sites are still doing the hybrid approach which looks awful.
Should be noted the reason you might not like it on signs other than guide signs is because the latter was really its main purpose. It's still only officially approved for guide signs. There is a variant known as B which is intended for negative contrast (i.e. black legend on light backgrounds) which has slightly thicker characters. However this is pretty rare and I don't think it looks as good. (Even though in practice the difference is very minor).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Molandfreak on April 12, 2023, 09:27:36 PM
Post by: Molandfreak on April 12, 2023, 09:27:36 PM
Related to the discussion in the Iowa Notes thread, any time a full free-flowing interchange is planned in a city, the DOT should wait until it's fully-funded to do anything there. No nickel-and-dimeing around for multiple years since multiple construction projects just piss people off.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: beau99 on April 12, 2023, 09:51:00 PM
Post by: beau99 on April 12, 2023, 09:51:00 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 01, 2023, 08:55:24 PM
(Just trying to steer this back on topic, as my dislike of roundabouts seems to be a rather unpopular opinion.)
I don't like them either.
One was tested out here in Phoenix just north of where I am, at the intersection of I-17 and one of our surface streets. It proved very unpopular and was removed after only a few years.
But then they decided to put them *everywhere* on AZ-260 between Cottonwood and I-17 in Camp Verde, as well as throughout AZ-179 between I-17 and Sedona. Going through all of them the last time I went to Sedona was so annoying. They accomplish absolutely nothing except cause backups in traffic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 13, 2023, 10:07:51 AM
Post by: kphoger on April 13, 2023, 10:07:51 AM
Quote from: beau99 on April 12, 2023, 09:51:00 PM
They accomplish absolutely nothing except cause backups in traffic.
Hyperbole much?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: VTGoose on April 13, 2023, 12:31:34 PM
Post by: VTGoose on April 13, 2023, 12:31:34 PM
(This could go either way, I guess)
Driving is a lost art.
Too many vehicle operators (like appliance operators, they really can't be called "drivers") are self-absorbed, operate not much further than then end of the hood of their vehicle, and don't pay attention to what's going on around them. Drive ahead to anticipate stopped traffic, a light change, someone changing lanes -- doesn't happen. However, micro-passing is a thing, as is suddenly speeding up while someone is actively passing them. If not micro-passing, then hanging out in the left lane in a driver's blind spot (or in a position that blocks a driver from moving left if they need to pass or avoid a hazard). Add in to this group the DIGs (Damn! I'm Good!) who believe the left lane is their's alone and no one should get in their way as they grossly exceed the speed limit and tailgate to intimidate others to get out of their way -- even if a driver is actively passing a line of traffic and has traffic in front of them.
Driving is a lost art.
Too many vehicle operators (like appliance operators, they really can't be called "drivers") are self-absorbed, operate not much further than then end of the hood of their vehicle, and don't pay attention to what's going on around them. Drive ahead to anticipate stopped traffic, a light change, someone changing lanes -- doesn't happen. However, micro-passing is a thing, as is suddenly speeding up while someone is actively passing them. If not micro-passing, then hanging out in the left lane in a driver's blind spot (or in a position that blocks a driver from moving left if they need to pass or avoid a hazard). Add in to this group the DIGs (Damn! I'm Good!) who believe the left lane is their's alone and no one should get in their way as they grossly exceed the speed limit and tailgate to intimidate others to get out of their way -- even if a driver is actively passing a line of traffic and has traffic in front of them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 13, 2023, 12:39:02 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 13, 2023, 12:39:02 PM
Quote from: VTGoose on April 13, 2023, 12:31:34 PM
[rant]
...
[/rant]
Actually, I don't think anything in there is an unpopular opinion.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Dirt Roads on April 13, 2023, 05:00:37 PM
Post by: Dirt Roads on April 13, 2023, 05:00:37 PM
Quote from: VTGoose on April 13, 2023, 12:31:34 PM
Too many vehicle operators (like appliance operators, they really can't be called "drivers") are self-absorbed...
(https://www.splikat.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Spongebob-Driving-Lessons.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on April 13, 2023, 07:48:00 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on April 13, 2023, 07:48:00 PM
Quote from: VTGoose on April 13, 2023, 12:31:34 PM
Too many vehicle operators (like appliance operators, they really can't be called "drivers") are self-absorbed, operate not much further than then end of the hood of their vehicle, and don't pay attention to what's going on around them.
Well, to be fair, if they're vehicle operators, and not drivers, you don't have much reason to expect all that much from them. :-D
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Molandfreak on April 17, 2023, 10:29:17 PM
Post by: Molandfreak on April 17, 2023, 10:29:17 PM
If I were to travel from Chicago to Kansas City, I would probably take the CKC most of the way unironically. It seems like a lot more fun to drive than the major Interstates in that area.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 19, 2023, 01:04:26 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 19, 2023, 01:04:26 PM
Driving without a seat belt shouldn't be against the law for anyone over the age of majority, because it's a personal choice by the individual that poses almost no risk of harm to anyone else.
If anything, instead, maybe cars should be designed to go into "limp mode" if the driver's seat belt isn't fastened.
(I wear my seat belt.)
If anything, instead, maybe cars should be designed to go into "limp mode" if the driver's seat belt isn't fastened.
(I wear my seat belt.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on April 19, 2023, 10:31:22 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on April 19, 2023, 10:31:22 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 19, 2023, 01:04:26 PM
Driving without a seat belt shouldn't be against the law for anyone over the age of majority, because it's a personal choice by the individual that poses almost no risk of harm to anyone else.
If anything, instead, maybe cars should be designed to go into "limp mode" if the driver's seat belt isn't fastened.
(I wear my seat belt.)
I think people who have a record of bad behavior on the road, DUI, reckless driving, etc. should only get to drive one kind of car, a designated "safety car"
It should be small and lightweight, so as not to be a danger to other vehicles. It should have a thick rubber belt line all the way around that sticks out to minimize damage from any fender benders. It should be painted a bright orange like a traffic cone to make it visible to others to avoid. There should be a flashing light on the top, maybe green, to indicate that it is a danger to other motorists. The engine should be a de-tuned 3 cylinder mated to a saggy and ineffective CVT transmission that ensures 0-60 times are over 15 seconds. It should lack modern safety features like seat belts, air bags, and crumple zones, to encourage the driver to be very careful about how they drive.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on April 19, 2023, 11:33:55 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on April 19, 2023, 11:33:55 PM
Yes, let's endanger others because we don't like their life choices. I'm sure this wouldn't be contested in any way.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 20, 2023, 10:45:47 AM
Post by: kphoger on April 20, 2023, 10:45:47 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 19, 2023, 10:31:22 PM
I think people who have a record of bad behavior on the road, DUI, reckless driving, etc. should only get to drive one kind of car, a designated "safety car" ... It should lack modern safety features like seat belts, air bags, and crumple zones, to encourage the driver to be very careful about how they drive.
I suspect that the second bolded part would not hold true for the subset of drivers specified in the first bolded part.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on April 20, 2023, 12:28:50 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on April 20, 2023, 12:28:50 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 20, 2023, 10:45:47 AMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 19, 2023, 10:31:22 PM
I think people who have a record of bad behavior on the road, DUI, reckless driving, etc. should only get to drive one kind of car, a designated "safety car" ... It should lack modern safety features like seat belts, air bags, and crumple zones, to encourage the driver to be very careful about how they drive.
I suspect that the second bolded part would not hold true for the subset of drivers specified in the first bolded part.
Eh maybe, maybe not. I do see a lot of people that drive like that because they have a big vehicle and think they can do whatever they want. If they were in a glorified golf cart they may feel differently.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on April 20, 2023, 12:52:17 PM
Post by: vdeane on April 20, 2023, 12:52:17 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 19, 2023, 10:31:22 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 19, 2023, 01:04:26 PM
Driving without a seat belt shouldn't be against the law for anyone over the age of majority, because it's a personal choice by the individual that poses almost no risk of harm to anyone else.
If anything, instead, maybe cars should be designed to go into "limp mode" if the driver's seat belt isn't fastened.
(I wear my seat belt.)
I think people who have a record of bad behavior on the road, DUI, reckless driving, etc. should only get to drive one kind of car, a designated "safety car"
It should be small and lightweight, so as not to be a danger to other vehicles. It should have a thick rubber belt line all the way around that sticks out to minimize damage from any fender benders. It should be painted a bright orange like a traffic cone to make it visible to others to avoid. There should be a flashing light on the top, maybe green, to indicate that it is a danger to other motorists. The engine should be a de-tuned 3 cylinder mated to a saggy and ineffective CVT transmission that ensures 0-60 times are over 15 seconds. It should lack modern safety features like seat belts, air bags, and crumple zones, to encourage the driver to be very careful about how they drive.
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 20, 2023, 12:28:50 PMThat slow acceleration speed would create a safety problem by forcing them to merge onto the freeway well below the speed of traffic. This can come up on local roads too, where it's hard to find a gap in traffic. The lack of a crumple zone would also make it do more damage to other cars if it hit them, since it would basically be a tank.Quote from: kphoger on April 20, 2023, 10:45:47 AMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 19, 2023, 10:31:22 PM
I think people who have a record of bad behavior on the road, DUI, reckless driving, etc. should only get to drive one kind of car, a designated "safety car" ... It should lack modern safety features like seat belts, air bags, and crumple zones, to encourage the driver to be very careful about how they drive.
I suspect that the second bolded part would not hold true for the subset of drivers specified in the first bolded part.
Eh maybe, maybe not. I do see a lot of people that drive like that because they have a big vehicle and think they can do whatever they want. If they were in a glorified golf cart they may feel differently.
"Bumper car" seems more accurate than "golf cart".
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on April 20, 2023, 01:13:45 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on April 20, 2023, 01:13:45 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 20, 2023, 12:52:17 PMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 19, 2023, 10:31:22 PMQuote from: kphoger on April 19, 2023, 01:04:26 PM
Driving without a seat belt shouldn't be against the law for anyone over the age of majority, because it's a personal choice by the individual that poses almost no risk of harm to anyone else.
If anything, instead, maybe cars should be designed to go into "limp mode" if the driver's seat belt isn't fastened.
(I wear my seat belt.)
I think people who have a record of bad behavior on the road, DUI, reckless driving, etc. should only get to drive one kind of car, a designated "safety car"
It should be small and lightweight, so as not to be a danger to other vehicles. It should have a thick rubber belt line all the way around that sticks out to minimize damage from any fender benders. It should be painted a bright orange like a traffic cone to make it visible to others to avoid. There should be a flashing light on the top, maybe green, to indicate that it is a danger to other motorists. The engine should be a de-tuned 3 cylinder mated to a saggy and ineffective CVT transmission that ensures 0-60 times are over 15 seconds. It should lack modern safety features like seat belts, air bags, and crumple zones, to encourage the driver to be very careful about how they drive.Quote from: HighwayStar on April 20, 2023, 12:28:50 PMThat slow acceleration speed would create a safety problem by forcing them to merge onto the freeway well below the speed of traffic. This can come up on local roads too, where it's hard to find a gap in traffic. The lack of a crumple zone would also make it do more damage to other cars if it hit them, since it would basically be a tank.Quote from: kphoger on April 20, 2023, 10:45:47 AMQuote from: HighwayStar on April 19, 2023, 10:31:22 PM
I think people who have a record of bad behavior on the road, DUI, reckless driving, etc. should only get to drive one kind of car, a designated "safety car" ... It should lack modern safety features like seat belts, air bags, and crumple zones, to encourage the driver to be very careful about how they drive.
I suspect that the second bolded part would not hold true for the subset of drivers specified in the first bolded part.
Eh maybe, maybe not. I do see a lot of people that drive like that because they have a big vehicle and think they can do whatever they want. If they were in a glorified golf cart they may feel differently.
"Bumper car" seems more accurate than "golf cart".
0-60 in 15 seconds is actually enough to merge onto a freeway. Most heavy trucks cannot do better than that, and they drive on our roads day in and day out.
For local roads, they might just have to wait for that gap in traffic, oh well.
The lack of a crumple zone does not inherently mean it must do more damage to other vehicles. That would only be true if it was built heavily and rigid. That is not the specification. It should be of flimsy uni-body construction, so it would lack a crumple zone because the entire car would effectively be one. That would actually minimize damage to other vehicles by absorbing the maximum amount of energy in an impact.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on April 20, 2023, 08:19:26 PM
Post by: vdeane on April 20, 2023, 08:19:26 PM
And heavy trucks are already annoying when you're behind them on the ramp or when you're near them. And there are many places where a large gap in traffic won't happen during daytime hours - here (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7216396,-73.837429,3a,75y,283.4h,85.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1TYeV3sztlJLsyL_6zVuDQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), for example.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on April 21, 2023, 01:21:05 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on April 21, 2023, 01:21:05 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 20, 2023, 08:19:26 PM
And heavy trucks are already annoying when you're behind them on the ramp or when you're near them. And there are many places where a large gap in traffic won't happen during daytime hours - here (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7216396,-73.837429,3a,75y,283.4h,85.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1TYeV3sztlJLsyL_6zVuDQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), for example.
Much of that is due to their size, not their speed. Plenty of people drive around in vehicles with hundreds of horsepower and never do 0-60 faster than 15 seconds either, because they are snails.
The benefits outweigh the costs on this.
In all the states I have been to or miles driven I have never had a case where I could not get a gap. If you need to go left or straight you might just need to do a Michigan Left. Oh well.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on April 21, 2023, 02:33:07 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on April 21, 2023, 02:33:07 PM
Most semis have 0-60 times approaching 30 seconds.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on April 21, 2023, 09:43:12 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on April 21, 2023, 09:43:12 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 21, 2023, 02:33:07 PM
Most semis have 0-60 times approaching 30 seconds.
Yeah I was being obscenely generous with that 15 seconds. Empty flatbed, hot roded Peterbuilt, maybe some Georgia overdrive might hit 60 in 15 seconds, but not general use semis.
I also recall the Toyota motor home I was looking into was 0-60 in 42 seconds, which seemed like it would make for an unpleasant driving experience.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ran4sh on May 01, 2023, 02:42:20 AM
Post by: ran4sh on May 01, 2023, 02:42:20 AM
They don't necessarily have to use freeways (at least in the east half of the country) - they could be relegated to only using non-freeway routes if the 15-second acceleration becomes a problem for them merging onto freeways
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: skluth on May 01, 2023, 11:06:58 AM
Post by: skluth on May 01, 2023, 11:06:58 AM
Semis shmemis. I had the same lack of acceleration onto freeways with my college-era 1980 Chevette four speed standard. I got great gas mileage but had no power; I once got it up to 85 mph going downhill. I also had a Scion XD which wasn't much better when I had a passenger. Even today, the Fiat 500 (https://www.cars-data.com/en/fiat-500/acceleration) takes almost 15 seconds to get to 62 mph (100 kph). There are plenty of cars with crappy acceleration without bringing semitrucks into the discussion. All these cars also look like bumper cars/golf carts compared to the typical pickup or SUV.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: on_wisconsin on May 01, 2023, 11:19:00 AM
Post by: on_wisconsin on May 01, 2023, 11:19:00 AM
Over 99% of porcelain/ button copy signs removed in the past decade or two were not historically significant enough to remain in the field.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: algorerhythms on May 01, 2023, 06:11:57 PM
Post by: algorerhythms on May 01, 2023, 06:11:57 PM
Quote from: skluth on May 01, 2023, 11:06:58 AMMy Chevy Spark's 0-60 time is "relax, it'll get there" .
Semis shmemis. I had the same lack of acceleration onto freeways with my college-era 1980 Chevette four speed standard. I got great gas mileage but had no power; I once got it up to 85 mph going downhill. I also had a Scion XD which wasn't much better when I had a passenger. Even today, the Fiat 500 (https://www.cars-data.com/en/fiat-500/acceleration) takes almost 15 seconds to get to 62 mph (100 kph). There are plenty of cars with crappy acceleration without bringing semitrucks into the discussion. All these cars also look like bumper cars/golf carts compared to the typical pickup or SUV.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: sprjus4 on May 01, 2023, 09:59:30 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 01, 2023, 09:59:30 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on May 01, 2023, 02:42:20 AMTrucks or this "safety car" that HighwayStar proposes? Either way, banning them freeway is just going to contribute to congestion and decrease safety significantly.
They don't necessarily have to use freeways (at least in the east half of the country) - they could be relegated to only using non-freeway routes if the 15-second acceleration becomes a problem for them merging onto freeways
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ran4sh on May 02, 2023, 12:02:03 AM
Post by: ran4sh on May 02, 2023, 12:02:03 AM
I definitely don't mean trucks.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on May 08, 2023, 03:15:33 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on May 08, 2023, 03:15:33 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 01, 2023, 09:59:30 PMQuote from: ran4sh on May 01, 2023, 02:42:20 AMTrucks or this "safety car" that HighwayStar proposes? Either way, banning them freeway is just going to contribute to congestion and decrease safety significantly.
They don't necessarily have to use freeways (at least in the east half of the country) - they could be relegated to only using non-freeway routes if the 15-second acceleration becomes a problem for them merging onto freeways
Right, trucks should be allowed on the freeway, and if needed left lane bans can be used to improve flow of passenger traffic.
Those driving penalty cars should be obligated to follow truck signage so they would be banned from the left lane(s) as well.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CapeCodder on May 12, 2023, 10:28:41 AM
Post by: CapeCodder on May 12, 2023, 10:28:41 AM
Massachusetts' signage for side streets. The place the cross street sign blade, but don't put the sign blade of the road you're on. It's confusing, especially because up in this area main roads often change names on a whim it seems.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on May 12, 2023, 11:04:33 AM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on May 12, 2023, 11:04:33 AM
My general rule for trucks on freeways would be that they are not allowed in the two leftmost lanes except that they can always use the two rightmost lanes. So, they would be allowed on both lanes of a two-lane freeway, all but the leftmost lane on a three-lane freeway, and so on.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: sprjus4 on May 12, 2023, 02:50:04 PM
Post by: sprjus4 on May 12, 2023, 02:50:04 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 12, 2023, 11:04:33 AMI agree, but in any case, they must be actively passing another vehicle to be in anything other than the right lane. Or for an emergency, lane closure, merging vehicles, etc.
My general rule for trucks on freeways would be that they are not allowed in the two leftmost lanes except that they can always use the two rightmost lanes. So, they would be allowed on both lanes of a two-lane freeway, all but the leftmost lane on a three-lane freeway, and so on.
One of my pet peeves is on 6 or more lane freeways, where trucks will just sit in the middle lane without passing any trucks. If a trucker from behind wishes to pass, they must jump into the further left lane, now blocking the entire highway. Stay right completely unless you're actively passing!
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: thenetwork on May 19, 2023, 11:18:48 PM
Post by: thenetwork on May 19, 2023, 11:18:48 PM
I would love it if the powers that be completely overhaul the use of speed-reduced school zones.
In my travels, I have driven past schools with no reduced speed limits on the road(s) that border(s) them; driven thru reduced-speed areas.where the school is actually several blocks off the "zoned" road; driven thru "school zones" that spanned 25 feet either side of the school's driveway; ridiculously looong school zones; zones in the same state/jurisdiction with different speeds around the different schools, etc...
Another reason for a re-evaluation for many of these zones is if the majority of the kids would walk home from school years/decades ago that are now mostly bussed or picked up by parents. Do the zones need to be the same today as 20-30 years ago?
And then there are the various types of zones: "Speed Limit xx When Flashing" (what they should all be IMHO), "....Between x:xx and x:xx" and the vaguer "...On School Days" (no flashing lights) or "...When Children Are Present".
In my travels, I have driven past schools with no reduced speed limits on the road(s) that border(s) them; driven thru reduced-speed areas.where the school is actually several blocks off the "zoned" road; driven thru "school zones" that spanned 25 feet either side of the school's driveway; ridiculously looong school zones; zones in the same state/jurisdiction with different speeds around the different schools, etc...
Another reason for a re-evaluation for many of these zones is if the majority of the kids would walk home from school years/decades ago that are now mostly bussed or picked up by parents. Do the zones need to be the same today as 20-30 years ago?
And then there are the various types of zones: "Speed Limit xx When Flashing" (what they should all be IMHO), "....Between x:xx and x:xx" and the vaguer "...On School Days" (no flashing lights) or "...When Children Are Present".
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Big John on May 20, 2023, 01:03:19 AM
Post by: Big John on May 20, 2023, 01:03:19 AM
^^ MUTCD recommends 200 feet from the school property line, bit I never see that used
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Some one on May 20, 2023, 01:50:59 AM
Post by: Some one on May 20, 2023, 01:50:59 AM
I know this is a road forum but it does irk me when people on this forum assume those who are against new freeways/expansions are "new-urbanist" freaks and aren't just people who simply don't want to live next to one or deal with the headache surrounding it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on May 20, 2023, 07:35:20 AM
Post by: Rothman on May 20, 2023, 07:35:20 AM
Quote from: Some one on May 20, 2023, 01:50:59 AM"I'd rather be a NIMBY than New Urbanist."
I know this is a road forum but it does irk me when people on this forum assume those who are against new freeways/expansions are "new-urbanist" freaks and aren't just people who simply don't want to live next to one or deal with the headache surrounding it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on May 22, 2023, 02:47:58 PM
Post by: formulanone on May 22, 2023, 02:47:58 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on May 19, 2023, 11:18:48 PM
Another reason for a re-evaluation for many of these zones is if the majority of the kids would walk home from school years/decades ago that are now mostly bussed or picked up by parents. Do the zones need to be the same today as 20-30 years ago?
Some school zones are more prone to stopped/slow traffic than others, but there's no guarantee that one school which has more parked or waiting cars than its drop-off lot can handle is the same trouble at another school.
But yes, the number of students actually crossing the road is much more limited in suburban areas as the years go on.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: HighwayStar on May 22, 2023, 05:35:31 PM
Post by: HighwayStar on May 22, 2023, 05:35:31 PM
Quote from: formulanone on May 22, 2023, 02:47:58 PMQuote from: thenetwork on May 19, 2023, 11:18:48 PM
Another reason for a re-evaluation for many of these zones is if the majority of the kids would walk home from school years/decades ago that are now mostly bussed or picked up by parents. Do the zones need to be the same today as 20-30 years ago?
Some school zones are more prone to stopped/slow traffic than others, but there's no guarantee that one school which has more parked or waiting cars than its drop-off lot can handle is the same trouble at another school.
But yes, the number of students actually crossing the road is much more limited in suburban areas as the years go on.
I would agree with that. On the same note, I've seen various districts or 3rd parties trying to encourage children to walk to school which makes little sense if we are going to pay for busses to take them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: LilianaUwU on May 22, 2023, 05:45:39 PM
Post by: LilianaUwU on May 22, 2023, 05:45:39 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 12, 2023, 02:50:04 PMAs someone who had some experience with trucking (though not a lot): I noticed it's usually safer for a truck to be in the middle lane, as not only is there less trouble with merging traffic, but faster traffic can still pass to the left. Of course, if another trucker decides to pass the middle lane trucker, then that's their problem if they want to take too long to pass.
One of my pet peeves is on 6 or more lane freeways, where trucks will just sit in the middle lane without passing any trucks. If a trucker from behind wishes to pass, they must jump into the further left lane, now blocking the entire highway. Stay right completely unless you're actively passing!
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: TheRoadGuy72 on November 02, 2023, 03:15:44 PM
Post by: TheRoadGuy72 on November 02, 2023, 03:15:44 PM
I think Open Road Tolling, or Electronic Tolling, or whatever people call it, is a total and complete scam. I think it's only done so that way states can jack up the prices of tolls by making people think they're saving money by buying those transponders yet they're still paying more than when they did when there was booths. I also do not like the privacy issues with it since they can pretty much track you to where you live whether it's through those transponders or when they send you a bill to your house if you don't have one. Finally I hate how it gets rid of jobs and gets rid of the more personal involvement when you're paying a toll at an old booth. Now I know for the most part you usually only talk to this person for 2 seconds but it's still nice to have that more personal aspect regarding paying.
I also despise the Double-diverting intersection design for interchanges. I think it is a very inefficient design as there is no reason why anyone should all of a sudden drive on the other side of the road in this country, it throws people off. I also think it is only used because a lot of people nowadays can't be trusted to come to a complete stop, look both ways, and only proceed when the intersection is free of traffic.
I also despise the Double-diverting intersection design for interchanges. I think it is a very inefficient design as there is no reason why anyone should all of a sudden drive on the other side of the road in this country, it throws people off. I also think it is only used because a lot of people nowadays can't be trusted to come to a complete stop, look both ways, and only proceed when the intersection is free of traffic.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on November 02, 2023, 03:30:52 PM
Post by: kphoger on November 02, 2023, 03:30:52 PM
Quote from: TheRoadGuy72 on November 02, 2023, 03:15:44 PM
I also despise the Double-diverting intersection design for interchanges.
Diverging Diamond Interchange?
Quote from: TheRoadGuy72 on November 02, 2023, 03:15:44 PM
I think it is a very inefficient design as there is no reason why anyone should all of a sudden drive on the other side of the road in this country, it throws people off.
I've never seen a driver who appeared to be thrown off to the point of not being able to navigate it correctly. Surprised, sure. But nowhere near as "thrown off" as people encountering a roundabout for the first time.
As for efficiency, I'm sure we'd all agree that its efficiency is limited. This is especially true when you consider that almost no traffic on the crossroad will get both green lights. But "very inefficient" is way overstated.
Quote from: TheRoadGuy72 on November 02, 2023, 03:15:44 PM
I also think it is only used because a lot of people nowadays can't be trusted to come to a complete stop, look both ways, and only proceed when the intersection is free of traffic.
No, that is not the reason. Generally, it comes down to two benefits: (1) cheaper to build than the alternatives, (2) two-phase stoplight timing.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on November 02, 2023, 07:02:47 PM
Post by: formulanone on November 02, 2023, 07:02:47 PM
All-caps Clearview is not always terrible, though that's improper usage. The lighter weights are not completely hideous and sometimes seem to do a sneaky job of blending in.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on November 03, 2023, 04:38:11 AM
Post by: Quillz on November 03, 2023, 04:38:11 AM
Clearview is perfectly fine when done right. I've said before that early on, it was often being mixed with the FHWA Series fonts. But I've seen plenty of all-Clearview signs with mixed use, proper spacing, and it looks fine. It's very over-hated.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on November 03, 2023, 06:44:45 AM
Post by: Rothman on November 03, 2023, 06:44:45 AM
Quote from: Quillz on November 03, 2023, 04:38:11 AM
Clearview is perfectly fine when done right... But I've seen plenty of all-Clearview signs with mixed use, proper spacing, and it looks fine. It's very over-hated.
No, no and no.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on November 03, 2023, 12:33:25 PM
Post by: vdeane on November 03, 2023, 12:33:25 PM
Quote from: Quillz on November 03, 2023, 04:38:11 AMCounter-point: while Clearview text can look fine if done right, Clearview numbers always look like yuck.
Clearview is perfectly fine when done right. I've said before that early on, it was often being mixed with the FHWA Series fonts. But I've seen plenty of all-Clearview signs with mixed use, proper spacing, and it looks fine. It's very over-hated.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on November 03, 2023, 09:29:43 PM
Post by: Quillz on November 03, 2023, 09:29:43 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 03, 2023, 06:44:45 AMYes, yes and yes.Quote from: Quillz on November 03, 2023, 04:38:11 AM
Clearview is perfectly fine when done right... But I've seen plenty of all-Clearview signs with mixed use, proper spacing, and it looks fine. It's very over-hated.
No, no and no.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on November 03, 2023, 09:58:07 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on November 03, 2023, 09:58:07 PM
I feel as though there is an outsized focus on MUTCD compliance in the hobby in general. Maybe it's me (as an non-engineer) just wanting to find interesting roads but I don't find focusing on things like external exit tabs, sequential exit numbering, mile markers or font types to be exciting.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on November 03, 2023, 10:15:10 PM
Post by: formulanone on November 03, 2023, 10:15:10 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 03, 2023, 06:44:45 AMQuote from: Quillz on November 03, 2023, 04:38:11 AM
Clearview is perfectly fine when done right... But I've seen plenty of all-Clearview signs with mixed use, proper spacing, and it looks fine. It's very over-hated.
No, no and no.
Get out of the confession booth, narc :-D
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on November 04, 2023, 05:26:56 AM
Post by: Quillz on November 04, 2023, 05:26:56 AM
Quote from: vdeane on November 03, 2023, 12:33:25 PMI used to feel this way, now I don't. It's similar to what I said above, when I first saw the numerals, they were often being used alongside FHWA Series fonts. But it was also a matter of time. They "looked" wrong at first because it wasn't what I was used to. But over time, seeing them was less jarring and now they're fine. I always suspected had things been the opposite, Clearview was the norm and the FHWA Series fonts showed up later, that the latter would be the ones I wouldn't have liked for a while.Quote from: Quillz on November 03, 2023, 04:38:11 AMCounter-point: while Clearview text can look fine if done right, Clearview numbers always look like yuck.
Clearview is perfectly fine when done right. I've said before that early on, it was often being mixed with the FHWA Series fonts. But I've seen plenty of all-Clearview signs with mixed use, proper spacing, and it looks fine. It's very over-hated.
My other issue is that Clearview numerals, aesthetically, seem to "fill out" space better. I've rarely found a good application of Series B, for example, because usually they're too narrow relative to the shield or sign they're being used on. But the equivalent (2-W or 2-B) generally looks better as far as width is concerned.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 10:40:54 AM
Post by: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 10:40:54 AM
1. Lane lines are just suggestions. Drive half on the shoulder to let someone pass you. If you can see far enough ahead, then overtake on a solid yellow line. Straddle the center line on narrow roads with no oncoming traffic. It's just paint.
2. Stop paying attention to the price of gas. You're just going to buy it anyway. Most days, if you ask me how much gas is around here, I don't know.
3. People in Texas drive just fine. Fast? yes. Assertive? yes. And that's perfectly acceptable. So stop complaining about them, because I probably wish you drove more like them.
4. No traffic laws should be enforceable by video camera. Judging what was safe or unsafe should be left to human beings with real-world experience who can see and assess the broader situation surrounding the incident. The same infraction in one scenario might deserve a ticket, while the same infraction in another scenario might not even deserve a traffic stop at all.
5. All down-arrows on overhead signage should be replaced with up-arrows.
6. We roadgeeks are missing out on something intangible but fundamental about the world by fixating on the minutiæ of roads. We'd all do well to try and lift our eyes up from the pavement and the retroreflective sheeting and start seeing the forest for the trees. Those around us probably have a better perspective on the world than we have, and we don't realize it.
2. Stop paying attention to the price of gas. You're just going to buy it anyway. Most days, if you ask me how much gas is around here, I don't know.
3. People in Texas drive just fine. Fast? yes. Assertive? yes. And that's perfectly acceptable. So stop complaining about them, because I probably wish you drove more like them.
4. No traffic laws should be enforceable by video camera. Judging what was safe or unsafe should be left to human beings with real-world experience who can see and assess the broader situation surrounding the incident. The same infraction in one scenario might deserve a ticket, while the same infraction in another scenario might not even deserve a traffic stop at all.
5. All down-arrows on overhead signage should be replaced with up-arrows.
6. We roadgeeks are missing out on something intangible but fundamental about the world by fixating on the minutiæ of roads. We'd all do well to try and lift our eyes up from the pavement and the retroreflective sheeting and start seeing the forest for the trees. Those around us probably have a better perspective on the world than we have, and we don't realize it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on November 04, 2023, 10:55:31 AM
Post by: webny99 on November 04, 2023, 10:55:31 AM
Quote from: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 10:40:54 AM
1. Lane lines are just suggestions. Drive half on the shoulder to let someone pass you. If you can see far enough ahead, then overtake on a solid yellow line. Straddle the center line on narrow roads with no oncoming traffic. It's just paint.
I agree 100% that single solid lines are just suggestions. Double solid lines, though, should be taken seriously; however, I do wish they were used more sparingly, especially on roads that lack proper shoulders. Ontario does a good job of this, where most rural county and local roads have a single yellow centerline. It's reflective of a wider range of circumstances where it's appropriate to cross that line.
Quote from: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 10:40:54 AM
6. We roadgeeks are missing out on something intangible but fundamental about the world by fixating on the minutiæ of roads. We'd all do well to try and lift our eyes up from the pavement and the retroreflective sheeting and start seeing the forest for the trees. Those around us probably have a better perspective on the world than we have, and we don't realize it.
That really depends on perspective of what. I reckon folks on this forum have much better perspective on anything geography-related, for example, and on things like what different areas of the country look like (thanks to extensive street view browsing), where one state or city is in relation to another, and a sense of how long it might take to get from said state or city to the other without having to look it up.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 11:09:04 AM
Post by: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 11:09:04 AM
Quote from: webny99 on November 04, 2023, 10:55:31 AMQuote from: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 10:40:54 AM
1. Lane lines are just suggestions. Drive half on the shoulder to let someone pass you. If you can see far enough ahead, then overtake on a solid yellow line. Straddle the center line on narrow roads with no oncoming traffic. It's just paint.
I agree 100% that single solid lines are just suggestions. Double solid lines, though, should be taken seriously; however, I do wish they were used more sparingly, especially on roads that lack proper shoulders. Ontario does a good job of this, where most rural county and local roads have a single yellow centerline. It's reflective of a wider range of circumstances where it's appropriate to cross that line.
Meh. I pass on a double yellow line at least once on pretty much every road trip our family takes. Especially in rolling hills, when I've already gotten a good view of the road ahead from one or two hills back and it's totally free of oncoming traffic, I'll go ahead and pass—even on the uphill. Or when the double yellow starts in advance of the road widening out for a passing lane, I see no need to wait till the actual passing lane begins before starting my pass. Or if it's on a curve, but it's winter and so visibility has increased due to all the vegetation's having lost its leaves, I might pass on a double yellow because I can actually see far enough ahead. Or if the slower vehicle is just really super slow, such that the maneuver will take less than ten seconds, I'll pass on a double yellow in a heartbeat. Et cetera.
Quote from: webny99 on November 04, 2023, 10:55:31 AMQuote from: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 10:40:54 AM
6. We roadgeeks are missing out on something intangible but fundamental about the world by fixating on the minutiæ of roads. We'd all do well to try and lift our eyes up from the pavement and the retroreflective sheeting and start seeing the forest for the trees. Those around us probably have a better perspective on the world than we have, and we don't realize it.
That really depends on perspective of what. I reckon folks on this forum have much better perspective on anything geography-related, for example, and on things like what different areas of the country look like (thanks to extensive street view browsing), where one state or city is in relation to another, and a sense of how long it might take to get from said state or city to the other without having to look it up.
I still suspect that those benefits are outweighed by a perspective we lack on the world immediately around us.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: 1995hoo on November 04, 2023, 11:14:03 AM
Post by: 1995hoo on November 04, 2023, 11:14:03 AM
Quote from: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 10:40:54 AM
...
2. Stop paying attention to the price of gas. You're just going to buy it anyway. Most days, if you ask me how much gas is around here, I don't know.
...
A counterargument: Focusing on the relative price of gas at stations around where you live is a worthwhile and sensible thing to do because it can be easy to save a decent amount of money without going very far out of your way. Let me give an example. If I head from my neighborhood towards the Beltway, I can go left and hit five gas stations (two Shells, a Liberty, a BP, and an Amerigo) about three-quarters of a mile down the road, or I can go right and hit three gas stations (a Liberty, a Sunoco, and a Shell) about a quarter-mile down the road. Despite those stations' proximity, the three stations located to the right are typically 50¢ a gallon cheaper (sometimes more) than the five stations located to the left. The difference is even more stark if I head into the City of Alexandria—there's an Exxon station that's typically close to a dollar a gallon more. In those circumstances, I think it makes eminent sense to focus on which stations to use, even recognizing that I typically fill my gas tank once every two months or so such that saving $7.50 on a 15-gallon fillup doesn't necessarily add up to all that much over time (though I suppose if I fill up six times in one year, saving an average of $7.50 a fillup adds up to $45, which is close enough to another tank of gas).
In the paragraph above, I italicized the word "relative" to emphasize that my point is not to know the exact price of gas at any given moment. I couldn't tell you how much gas costs at any of those stations right now. But I can tell you with some reasonable confidence (based on living in this house for 22 years) that the three stations to the right will be significantly cheaper than the five stations to the left.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 01:52:09 PM
Post by: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 01:52:09 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 04, 2023, 11:14:03 AM
A counterargument: Focusing on the relative price of gas at stations around where you live is a worthwhile and sensible thing to do because it can be easy to save a decent amount of money without going very far out of your way. Let me give an example. If I head from my neighborhood towards the Beltway, I can go left and hit five gas stations (two Shells, a Liberty, a BP, and an Amerigo) about three-quarters of a mile down the road, or I can go right and hit three gas stations (a Liberty, a Sunoco, and a Shell) about a quarter-mile down the road. Despite those stations' proximity, the three stations located to the right are typically 50¢ a gallon cheaper (sometimes more) than the five stations located to the left. The difference is even more stark if I head into the City of Alexandria—there's an Exxon station that's typically close to a dollar a gallon more. In those circumstances, I think it makes eminent sense to focus on which stations to use, even recognizing that I typically fill my gas tank once every two months or so such that saving $7.50 on a 15-gallon fillup doesn't necessarily add up to all that much over time (though I suppose if I fill up six times in one year, saving an average of $7.50 a fillup adds up to $45, which is close enough to another tank of gas).
In the paragraph above, I italicized the word "relative" to emphasize that my point is not to know the exact price of gas at any given moment. I couldn't tell you how much gas costs at any of those stations right now. But I can tell you with some reasonable confidence (based on living in this house for 22 years) that the three stations to the right will be significantly cheaper than the five stations to the left.
Very good point. Stations around here don't tend to vary much between them, but I've lived in places where they do, and I agree that it was useful knowledge to have.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: J N Winkler on November 04, 2023, 02:07:18 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on November 04, 2023, 02:07:18 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 03, 2023, 09:58:07 PMI feel as though there is an outsized focus on MUTCD compliance in the hobby in general. Maybe it's me (as an non-engineer) just wanting to find interesting roads but I don't find focusing on things like external exit tabs, sequential exit numbering, mile markers or font types to be exciting.
I like the clean appearance of the new freeway guide signs in California that have external tabs. This said, since one of my big focus areas in this hobby is collecting pattern-accurate sign panel detail sheets, the use of placeholder fonts on the sheet itself bothers me more.
I tend to associate the focus on MUTCD compliance with the There's NO way that is MUTCD-Compliant group on Facebook. I sense its membership is distributed bimodally, with a large share coming from the wider NUMTOT community and having an average age maybe 10 years younger than this forum, while a smaller but very active segment includes practitioners who are retired or in the later phases of their careers. I think the younger members tend to be new to the wider road interest and thus tend to sweat MUTCD compliance much more than OGs like ourselves who are ready to say, "Hey, that's an interesting sign."
Quote from: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 10:40:54 AMAll down-arrows on overhead signage should be replaced with up-arrows.
The Germans have done this as part of the philosophy that underlies the Umklappregel, which says that if a sign is flipped forward about its bottom edge, the arrangement of legend and arrows on the panel should match the relative position and orientation of the real-world features to which they refer.
I personally don't think we are ready to tie all guide sign design to such a bold unifying principle--even within Europe, the French, British, Spanish, Swiss, Italians, Danes, and Poles continue to use downward-pointing arrows.
Unpopular opinion of my own: even if you initially don't like a particular typeface or family thereof--Drogowskaz comes to mind, not just Clearview--it sort of grows on you when you see it consistently applied in the field or in engineering drawings.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on November 04, 2023, 03:06:59 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on November 04, 2023, 03:06:59 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 10:40:54 AM
6. We roadgeeks are missing out on something intangible but fundamental about the world by fixating on the minutiæ of roads. We'd all do well to try and lift our eyes up from the pavement and the retroreflective sheeting and start seeing the forest for the trees. Those around us probably have a better perspective on the world than we have, and we don't realize it.
Exacerbating the risk of looking into something best left alone, what do you have in mind here?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on November 04, 2023, 04:39:55 PM
Post by: vdeane on November 04, 2023, 04:39:55 PM
Quote from: Quillz on November 04, 2023, 05:26:56 AMWhat's weird is that I've been the reverse. While I used to not mind the Clearview numbers on properly-proportioned signs like Vermont's, as the years have gone on I've gotten more annoyed with them.Quote from: vdeane on November 03, 2023, 12:33:25 PMI used to feel this way, now I don't. It's similar to what I said above, when I first saw the numerals, they were often being used alongside FHWA Series fonts. But it was also a matter of time. They "looked" wrong at first because it wasn't what I was used to. But over time, seeing them was less jarring and now they're fine. I always suspected had things been the opposite, Clearview was the norm and the FHWA Series fonts showed up later, that the latter would be the ones I wouldn't have liked for a while.Quote from: Quillz on November 03, 2023, 04:38:11 AMCounter-point: while Clearview text can look fine if done right, Clearview numbers always look like yuck.
Clearview is perfectly fine when done right. I've said before that early on, it was often being mixed with the FHWA Series fonts. But I've seen plenty of all-Clearview signs with mixed use, proper spacing, and it looks fine. It's very over-hated.
My other issue is that Clearview numerals, aesthetically, seem to "fill out" space better. I've rarely found a good application of Series B, for example, because usually they're too narrow relative to the shield or sign they're being used on. But the equivalent (2-W or 2-B) generally looks better as far as width is concerned.
Quote from: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 10:40:54 AMAgreed. So many people will go out of their way to get gas that is 10 cents a gallon cheaper or complain when it goes up by some small amount. Even if I fill up when the tank is low enough for the E light to come on, a difference of 10 cents a gallon is only $1 difference to fill up. Granted, I also don't live in an area with large price variances. To get a difference of 50 cents or more either direction I'd have to drive a long way or go out of state.
2. Stop paying attention to the price of gas. You're just going to buy it anyway. Most days, if you ask me how much gas is around here, I don't know.
Quote from: webny99 on November 04, 2023, 10:55:31 AMFun fact: Ontario, Vermont, and Pennsylvania are the three jurisdictions that allow passing even when there's a double-yellow line (although the latter two and possibly Ontario as well disallow it if a regulatory sign says "do not pass").
I agree 100% that single solid lines are just suggestions. Double solid lines, though, should be taken seriously; however, I do wish they were used more sparingly, especially on roads that lack proper shoulders. Ontario does a good job of this, where most rural county and local roads have a single yellow centerline. It's reflective of a wider range of circumstances where it's appropriate to cross that line.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on November 04, 2023, 04:46:11 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on November 04, 2023, 04:46:11 PM
Whenever I inquire "those around us" I usually find that it's not that they have a better perspective on the world than we have, it's that they don't have a perspective at all. Just never occurs to them to. Which is okay, I guess, because they probably have strong opinions about the minutiæ of, I dunno, college football that I couldn't pretend to care about if you paid me to.
Programmers have been arguing about minutiæ like the proper way to indent code and whether object-oriented or procedural programming style is better since the 1980s. I wouldn't expect most roadgeeks to have an opinion on those unless they're also programmers. Yet they really matter to those who have to live with the fallout from those decisions.
Programmers have been arguing about minutiæ like the proper way to indent code and whether object-oriented or procedural programming style is better since the 1980s. I wouldn't expect most roadgeeks to have an opinion on those unless they're also programmers. Yet they really matter to those who have to live with the fallout from those decisions.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on November 04, 2023, 05:02:22 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on November 04, 2023, 05:02:22 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on November 04, 2023, 03:06:59 PMQuote from: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 10:40:54 AM
6. We roadgeeks are missing out on something intangible but fundamental about the world by fixating on the minutiæ of roads. We'd all do well to try and lift our eyes up from the pavement and the retroreflective sheeting and start seeing the forest for the trees. Those around us probably have a better perspective on the world than we have, and we don't realize it.
Exacerbating the risk of looking into something best left alone, what do you have in mind here?
I think that I hit on the same thing, just phrased differently in my last reply. I like driving fun roads, I don't think that's what drives much of the hobby though but rather an obsession with general homogenization does.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: wriddle082 on November 04, 2023, 06:27:50 PM
Post by: wriddle082 on November 04, 2023, 06:27:50 PM
Has anybody mentioned the following yet?:
1. New forum members who join, seemingly, for the sole purpose of bashing a major long-awaited road project using tired arguments, mainly environmental, which were debunked years ago.
2. Members from the DC metro area who seem to think the 95 corridor should be the only one that should get any of VDOT's money, completely ignoring the extreme bottleneck that is the 81 corridor. Most of this country chooses to live way outside the DC area, and considerations should be afforded them as well.
3. The outright money grab that is PANYNJ's toll rates on their facilities, and the upcoming congestion pricing tolls for Manhattan. Has traffic really been on the rise since the pandemic hastened the work-from-home trend?
4. Section 2E.24 of the MUTCD. Because of the lack of clear signage for option lanes in advance, I often find myself moving over to the left as I'm exiting the main lanes to take the left side of a second split, when I could have been in that left lane all along. Just revert that change!
1. New forum members who join, seemingly, for the sole purpose of bashing a major long-awaited road project using tired arguments, mainly environmental, which were debunked years ago.
2. Members from the DC metro area who seem to think the 95 corridor should be the only one that should get any of VDOT's money, completely ignoring the extreme bottleneck that is the 81 corridor. Most of this country chooses to live way outside the DC area, and considerations should be afforded them as well.
3. The outright money grab that is PANYNJ's toll rates on their facilities, and the upcoming congestion pricing tolls for Manhattan. Has traffic really been on the rise since the pandemic hastened the work-from-home trend?
4. Section 2E.24 of the MUTCD. Because of the lack of clear signage for option lanes in advance, I often find myself moving over to the left as I'm exiting the main lanes to take the left side of a second split, when I could have been in that left lane all along. Just revert that change!
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hotdogPi on November 04, 2023, 07:23:57 PM
Post by: hotdogPi on November 04, 2023, 07:23:57 PM
Quote from: wriddle082 on November 04, 2023, 06:27:50 PM
2. Members from the DC metro area who seem to think the 95 corridor should be the only one that should get any of VDOT's money, completely ignoring the extreme bottleneck that is the 81 corridor. Most of this country chooses to live way outside the DC area, and considerations should be afforded them as well.
Same person, different account, already banned.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 09:07:46 PM
Post by: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 09:07:46 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on November 04, 2023, 03:06:59 PMQuote from: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 10:40:54 AM
6. We roadgeeks are missing out on something intangible but fundamental about the world by fixating on the minutiæ of roads. We'd all do well to try and lift our eyes up from the pavement and the retroreflective sheeting and start seeing the forest for the trees. Those around us probably have a better perspective on the world than we have, and we don't realize it.
Exacerbating the risk of looking into something best left alone, what do you have in mind here?
Hey, I never said I knew what "it" was, nor how to grasp it for my own—just I think there's an "it" out there that we're missing. I am part of that we.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2023, 04:46:11 PM
Whenever I inquire "those around us" I usually find that it's not that they have a better perspective on the world than we have, it's that they don't have a perspective at all. Just never occurs to them to. Which is okay, I guess, because they probably have strong opinions about the minutiæ of, I dunno, college football that I couldn't pretend to care about if you paid me to.
Programmers have been arguing about minutiæ like the proper way to indent code and whether object-oriented or procedural programming style is better since the 1980s. I wouldn't expect most roadgeeks to have an opinion on those unless they're also programmers. Yet they really matter to those who have to live with the fallout from those decisions.
At least roads and signs are real-world objects. And I've never understood the worldwide fascination with the sports statistics of complete strangers.
But at least sports are something that fits within the canon of socially engaging activities. That is to say, it's something that either inherently or tangentially involves human interaction. Maybe it's the human factor that I feel is missing in this niche interest of ours, and sometimes I wonder if part of why we're interested in it is that we lack some basic aptitude for engaging with the real-world people in our lives. Or maybe I just need to go to bed...
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on November 04, 2023, 09:13:05 PM
Post by: Rothman on November 04, 2023, 09:13:05 PM
Do any of us know what "it" is?
https://youtu.be/ZG_k5CSYKhg?si=b_hfbCvaYp0-4YLu
https://youtu.be/ZG_k5CSYKhg?si=b_hfbCvaYp0-4YLu
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on November 05, 2023, 10:13:35 AM
Post by: formulanone on November 05, 2023, 10:13:35 AM
Quote from: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 10:40:54 AM
6. We roadgeeks are missing out on something intangible but fundamental about the world by fixating on the minutiæ of roads. We'd all do well to try and lift our eyes up from the pavement and the retroreflective sheeting and start seeing the forest for the trees. Those around us probably have a better perspective on the world than we have, and we don't realize it.
If there's anything close to a unified law of life; it's impossible to focus on everything; for everything we give attention to, there's always the potential for something else to go somewhat unnoticed. Our personal knowledge and memory is forged by the emotion of the moment, not stored away like a computer or file cabinet for retrieval.
As there is a conservation of energy, economic law of opportunity cost, a sense of personal well-being, one can only sample and absorb so much of life in general and there's always going to be areas of the personally undiscovered which naturally occur in the blind spots of our activities. With the exception of our highest necessities, any hobby is an escape from something else. Yet there's no metric nor sense in saying that any harmless side interest is any less important than another, if it brings a personal sense of joy and accomplishment.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: US20IL64 on November 11, 2023, 10:57:27 PM
Post by: US20IL64 on November 11, 2023, 10:57:27 PM
One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in. :D
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 10:00:41 PM
Post by: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 10:00:41 PM
Quote from: US20IL64 on November 11, 2023, 10:57:27 PM
One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in. :D
People really do need to learn that there is more than one mode of passenger transportation besides the automobile. Agreed. And reality provides its own constraints to the width of a ROW regardless of how any of us feels about it.
Unpopular opinion from me: Wisconsin should have single-digit state highways. WI-35 should be WI-1. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on November 13, 2023, 09:40:34 AM
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on November 13, 2023, 09:40:34 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2023, 04:46:11 PM
Programmers have been arguing about minutiæ like the proper way to indent code and whether object-oriented or procedural programming style is better since the 1980s. I wouldn't expect most roadgeeks to have an opinion on those unless they're also programmers. Yet they really matter to those who have to live with the fallout from those decisions.
It boggles my mind, that it seems like no two people, anywhere, can agree on how to write the date.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kurumi on November 13, 2023, 12:23:02 PM
Post by: kurumi on November 13, 2023, 12:23:02 PM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 13, 2023, 09:40:34 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2023, 04:46:11 PM
Programmers have been arguing about minutiæ like the proper way to indent code and whether object-oriented or procedural programming style is better since the 1980s. I wouldn't expect most roadgeeks to have an opinion on those unless they're also programmers. Yet they really matter to those who have to live with the fallout from those decisions.
It boggles my mind, that it seems like no two people, anywhere, can agree on how to write the date.
Join the dark side (ISO-8601). 2023-11-13. It collates well in directory listings, spreadsheets, database queries, and more.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on November 14, 2023, 05:56:28 AM
Post by: Quillz on November 14, 2023, 05:56:28 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 10:00:41 PMJust spent the weekend at Mammoth Lakes, and was pleasantly surprised that I didn't need my car the entire day. Left it in the parking garage at the hotel. Everything else was a short walk away, then took a bus to the slopes that runs every 20 minutes. I'm sure it's been like this for a long time, but every time I've been there in the past, always drove to the ski area's parking lot. Combined with lots of local walking trails, really impressed how walkable the whole experience was.Quote from: US20IL64 on November 11, 2023, 10:57:27 PM
One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in. :D
People really do need to learn that there is more than one mode of passenger transportation besides the automobile. Agreed. And reality provides its own constraints to the width of a ROW regardless of how any of us feels about it.
Unpopular opinion from me: Wisconsin should have single-digit state highways. WI-35 should be WI-1. :)
Problem is, that's the ideal scenario. It's just not practical in so many places. I used to take the bus to my university, but the time between buses was often close to an hour, and the buses never seemed to follow their own schedules and wait like they should, so they'd usually just blow right past the stops, and of course I'd miss them and then be late to my classes. Or they'd drop me off a mile from my house and I had to walk. So I had no practical choice but to get a car and drive everywhere. The scenario hasn't really improved in all those years, sadly.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on November 15, 2023, 07:43:00 AM
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on November 15, 2023, 07:43:00 AM
Quote from: kurumi on November 13, 2023, 12:23:02 PMThis is my own preferred method. I convert everything to this, for the exact reasons you mentioned.Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 13, 2023, 09:40:34 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2023, 04:46:11 PM
Programmers have been arguing about minutiæ like the proper way to indent code and whether object-oriented or procedural programming style is better since the 1980s. I wouldn't expect most roadgeeks to have an opinion on those unless they're also programmers. Yet they really matter to those who have to live with the fallout from those decisions.
It boggles my mind, that it seems like no two people, anywhere, can agree on how to write the date.
Join the dark side (ISO-8601). 2023-11-13. It collates well in directory listings, spreadsheets, database queries, and more.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Some one on December 16, 2023, 03:48:05 PM
Post by: Some one on December 16, 2023, 03:48:05 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 10:00:41 PMAgreed. I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.Quote from: US20IL64 on November 11, 2023, 10:57:27 PM
One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in. :D
People really do need to learn that there is more than one mode of passenger transportation besides the automobile. Agreed. And reality provides its own constraints to the width of a ROW regardless of how any of us feels about it.
Unpopular opinion from me: Wisconsin should have single-digit state highways. WI-35 should be WI-1. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: tmoore952 on December 16, 2023, 04:18:58 PM
Post by: tmoore952 on December 16, 2023, 04:18:58 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 04, 2023, 11:14:03 AMI am pressed enough for time, that I take that into consideration when buying gas. Where I am, in my town, gas can be about 25 cents a gallon more expensive than the next town down (south). So yes, that will mean paying 4 dollars extra if I get 16 gallons. But traveling to the next town and back, with the usually badly timed lights in between, costs me about 45 minutes. I consider paying the extra 4 dollars an even exchange for 45 minutes of time.Quote from: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 10:40:54 AM
...
2. Stop paying attention to the price of gas. You're just going to buy it anyway. Most days, if you ask me how much gas is around here, I don't know.
...
A counterargument: Focusing on the relative price of gas at stations around where you live is a worthwhile and sensible thing to do because it can be easy to save a decent amount of money without going very far out of your way. Let me give an example. If I head from my neighborhood towards the Beltway, I can go left and hit five gas stations (two Shells, a Liberty, a BP, and an Amerigo) about three-quarters of a mile down the road, or I can go right and hit three gas stations (a Liberty, a Sunoco, and a Shell) about a quarter-mile down the road. Despite those stations' proximity, the three stations located to the right are typically 50¢ a gallon cheaper (sometimes more) than the five stations located to the left. The difference is even more stark if I head into the City of Alexandria—there's an Exxon station that's typically close to a dollar a gallon more. In those circumstances, I think it makes eminent sense to focus on which stations to use, even recognizing that I typically fill my gas tank once every two months or so such that saving $7.50 on a 15-gallon fillup doesn't necessarily add up to all that much over time (though I suppose if I fill up six times in one year, saving an average of $7.50 a fillup adds up to $45, which is close enough to another tank of gas).
In the paragraph above, I italicized the word "relative" to emphasize that my point is not to know the exact price of gas at any given moment. I couldn't tell you how much gas costs at any of those stations right now. But I can tell you with some reasonable confidence (based on living in this house for 22 years) that the three stations to the right will be significantly cheaper than the five stations to the left.
My attitude would be different about this if I had many years left to work.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: tmoore952 on December 16, 2023, 04:26:12 PM
Post by: tmoore952 on December 16, 2023, 04:26:12 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2023, 04:46:11 PM
Programmers have been arguing about minutiæ like the proper way to indent code and whether object-oriented or procedural programming style is better since the 1980s. I wouldn't expect most roadgeeks to have an opinion on those unless they're also programmers. Yet they really matter to those who have to live with the fallout from those decisions.
As an engineer who either (1) does write programs from time to time or (2) more often, steps through programs to trace calculations, it is very nice when code is indented for loops, and especially when there are multiple loops (could be many). Comments next to "end" statements as to which loop is being terminated also are very helpful. I know some programs will show you (by way of lines) the starts and ends of loops, but I find that too many lines on the screen is a distraction.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on December 16, 2023, 04:33:01 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on December 16, 2023, 04:33:01 PM
Quote from: Some one on December 16, 2023, 03:48:05 PMQuote from: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 10:00:41 PMAgreed. I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.Quote from: US20IL64 on November 11, 2023, 10:57:27 PM
One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in. :D
People really do need to learn that there is more than one mode of passenger transportation besides the automobile. Agreed. And reality provides its own constraints to the width of a ROW regardless of how any of us feels about it.
Unpopular opinion from me: Wisconsin should have single-digit state highways. WI-35 should be WI-1. :)
Speaking for myself, the page I co-run has had numerous run-ins with antagonistic urbanists. To be clear, I have zero issue with additional transportation alternatives. I occasionally even post stuff about transportation topics (like the California High Speed Rail) despite our page being highway centric. I do have an issue with advocates of a certain non-car centric lifestyle baselessly accusing our page of promoting the toxicity of car culture.
Worth noting, GN is mostly a history oriented page. The bulk of what I contribute tends to be rural highway topics.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: pderocco on December 16, 2023, 08:10:03 PM
Post by: pderocco on December 16, 2023, 08:10:03 PM
There's a certain basic topological reality: there's no such thing as a mode of mass transit that goes from everywhere to everywhere else. Even in our densest city, New York, many people still rely on automobiles for transportation; they're just called taxis, and they only eliminate the problem of parking by spending the time they're not carrying passengers driving around looking for passengers to carry. But in many situations they still work better than the alternatives, for those who can afford them.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 02:10:31 PM
Post by: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 02:10:31 PM
Quote from: Some one on December 16, 2023, 03:48:05 PM
I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.
1. I don't consider this forum's core identity to be pro-road. It's a forum about roads, therefore its participants should hopefully have an interest in roads—but that doesn't necessarily imply they're pro- roads. I, for one, don't really consider myself to be pro- or anti- roads: I'm interested in the roads that exist, I have a mild interest in their history, and I have a limited interest in projects in specific regions—but I very rarely have any strong opinion about whether any given project should be promoted or axed, or whatever. Other people on the forum seem to be keenly interested in signage, route numbering, clinching, maps, etc, but none of that actually tells you what they think about the value of roads in general.
2. Being pro-road...
a. ...doesn't mean you have to be anti- transit. Other than a few hardcore car-onlyists, most forum members value both, although just how much they value each one will vary from person to person.
b. ...doesn't mean you have to be pro- every road. It's perfectly reasonable to be pro-roads in general but still oppose a specific project, design, trend, etc.
3. Being pro-transit...
a. ...doesn't mean you have to be anti-road. See above. Again, though, specific beliefs and values will vary from to person to person, so someone's getting pissy "at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway)" doesn't necessarily mean that someone is anti-transit: he might just be pro- that urban highway, or he might be pro- urban highways and urban transit.
b. ...doesn't mean you have to be pro- every mode of transit, nor pro- transit in every situation. It's perfectly reasonable to love trains and hate buses, or vice versa, or to think light rail would be great in one city but not in another.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on December 18, 2023, 02:16:07 PM
Post by: Rothman on December 18, 2023, 02:16:07 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 02:10:31 PMQuote from: Some one on December 16, 2023, 03:48:05 PM
I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.
1. I don't consider this forum's core identity to be pro-road. It's a forum about roads, therefore its participants should hopefully have an interest in roads—but that doesn't necessarily imply they're pro- roads. I, for one, don't really consider myself to be pro- or anti- roads: I'm interested in the roads that exist, I have a mild interest in their history, and I have a limited interest in projects in specific regions—but I very rarely have any strong opinion about whether any given project should be promoted or axed, or whatever. Other people on the forum seem to be keenly interested in signage, route numbering, clinching, maps, etc, but none of that actually tells you what they think about the value of roads in general.
2. Being pro-road...
a. ...doesn't mean you have to be anti- transit. Other than a few hardcore car-onlyists, most forum members value both, although just how much they value each one will vary from person to person.
b. ...doesn't mean you have to be pro- every road. It's perfectly reasonable to be pro-roads in general but still oppose a specific project, design, trend, etc.
3. Being pro-transit...
a. ...doesn't mean you have to be anti-road. See above. Again, though, specific beliefs and values will vary from to person to person, so someone's getting pissy "at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway)" doesn't necessarily mean that someone is anti-transit: he might just be pro- that urban highway, or he might be pro- urban highways and urban transit.
b. ...doesn't mean you have to be pro- every mode of transit, nor pro- transit in every situation. It's perfectly reasonable to love trains and hate buses, or vice versa, or to think light rail would be great in one city but not in another.
How woke.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: 1995hoo on December 18, 2023, 02:22:38 PM
Post by: 1995hoo on December 18, 2023, 02:22:38 PM
Quote from: tmoore952 on December 16, 2023, 04:18:58 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on November 04, 2023, 11:14:03 AMI am pressed enough for time, that I take that into consideration when buying gas. Where I am, in my town, gas can be about 25 cents a gallon more expensive than the next town down (south). So yes, that will mean paying 4 dollars extra if I get 16 gallons. But traveling to the next town and back, with the usually badly timed lights in between, costs me about 45 minutes. I consider paying the extra 4 dollars an even exchange for 45 minutes of time.Quote from: kphoger on November 04, 2023, 10:40:54 AM
...
2. Stop paying attention to the price of gas. You're just going to buy it anyway. Most days, if you ask me how much gas is around here, I don't know.
...
A counterargument: Focusing on the relative price of gas at stations around where you live is a worthwhile and sensible thing to do because it can be easy to save a decent amount of money without going very far out of your way. Let me give an example. If I head from my neighborhood towards the Beltway, I can go left and hit five gas stations (two Shells, a Liberty, a BP, and an Amerigo) about three-quarters of a mile down the road, or I can go right and hit three gas stations (a Liberty, a Sunoco, and a Shell) about a quarter-mile down the road. Despite those stations' proximity, the three stations located to the right are typically 50¢ a gallon cheaper (sometimes more) than the five stations located to the left. The difference is even more stark if I head into the City of Alexandria—there's an Exxon station that's typically close to a dollar a gallon more. In those circumstances, I think it makes eminent sense to focus on which stations to use, even recognizing that I typically fill my gas tank once every two months or so such that saving $7.50 on a 15-gallon fillup doesn't necessarily add up to all that much over time (though I suppose if I fill up six times in one year, saving an average of $7.50 a fillup adds up to $45, which is close enough to another tank of gas).
In the paragraph above, I italicized the word "relative" to emphasize that my point is not to know the exact price of gas at any given moment. I couldn't tell you how much gas costs at any of those stations right now. But I can tell you with some reasonable confidence (based on living in this house for 22 years) that the three stations to the right will be significantly cheaper than the five stations to the left.
My attitude would be different about this if I had many years left to work.
Of course, plus there is the consideration of how much gas you would use driving the extra distance. Gas used to be considerably cheaper if I drove down to Prince William County and went to the Sunoco on Route 123 near Occoquan. But the roundtrip drive was far enough that I'd use enough gas to eat up any savings I might have realized, so it didn't make sense to go down there just to buy gas. If, of course, I had another reason for being down there—for example, there used to be a nice golf course near that gas station that my wife and I enjoyed playing—then that would be a different matter. Take note of the geographical context and distances cited in my post that you quoted.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on December 18, 2023, 05:12:54 PM
Post by: Quillz on December 18, 2023, 05:12:54 PM
Quote from: Some one on December 16, 2023, 03:48:05 PMI suspect many of the overtly pro-freeway people here had the luxury of their neighborhood not being displaced by one.Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 10:00:41 PMAgreed. I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.Quote from: US20IL64 on November 11, 2023, 10:57:27 PM
One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in. :D
People really do need to learn that there is more than one mode of passenger transportation besides the automobile. Agreed. And reality provides its own constraints to the width of a ROW regardless of how any of us feels about it.
Unpopular opinion from me: Wisconsin should have single-digit state highways. WI-35 should be WI-1. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: algorerhythms on December 18, 2023, 05:42:06 PM
Post by: algorerhythms on December 18, 2023, 05:42:06 PM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 13, 2023, 09:40:34 AMI once accidentally signed up for an apartment lease that started December 1 thinking it was January 12, because they wrote the date 1/12 instead of 12/1. (Luckily, they were reasonable about it and found me another unit that was available in January so I wouldn't have to pay the extra month)Quote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2023, 04:46:11 PM
Programmers have been arguing about minutiæ like the proper way to indent code and whether object-oriented or procedural programming style is better since the 1980s. I wouldn't expect most roadgeeks to have an opinion on those unless they're also programmers. Yet they really matter to those who have to live with the fallout from those decisions.
It boggles my mind, that it seems like no two people, anywhere, can agree on how to write the date.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Some one on December 18, 2023, 05:59:44 PM
Post by: Some one on December 18, 2023, 05:59:44 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 16, 2023, 04:33:01 PMThat I agree with. I don't like how urbanists assume that we are crazy car people and not that we just simply have a fascination for roadways.Quote from: Some one on December 16, 2023, 03:48:05 PMQuote from: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 10:00:41 PMAgreed. I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.Quote from: US20IL64 on November 11, 2023, 10:57:27 PM
One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in. :D
People really do need to learn that there is more than one mode of passenger transportation besides the automobile. Agreed. And reality provides its own constraints to the width of a ROW regardless of how any of us feels about it.
Unpopular opinion from me: Wisconsin should have single-digit state highways. WI-35 should be WI-1. :)
Speaking for myself, the page I co-run has had numerous run-ins with antagonistic urbanists. To be clear, I have zero issue with additional transportation alternatives. I occasionally even post stuff about transportation topics (like the California High Speed Rail) despite our page being highway centric. I do have an issue with advocates of a certain non-car centric lifestyle baselessly accusing our page of promoting the toxicity of car culture.
Worth noting, GN is mostly a history oriented page. The bulk of what I contribute tends to be rural highway topics.
Quote from: kphoger on December 18, 2023, 02:10:31 PMWell said. I do agree with the points you made. I consider myself a roadgeek because I am fascinated by the roads, their signage, their routing and number, their interchanges, their history, etc. but that also doesn't mean I'm pro-road or anti-transit. I think that urban freeways should've bypassed the city center rather than go through it and I'm for tunneling it, capping it, or even removing it in some places where it won't have much impact. I'm also in favor of multimodal transportation where it works, and even moving away from car dependency. For the record, I do think it's silly to believe that all cars and roads will suddenly go away, and I'm not for forcing people to rely solely on cars or transit. Even some of the densest cities still have some car usage. I just hate how often some people on the forum (a vocal minority) fearmonger about the urbanists who believe that we should remove all cars and roads (who are also a vocal minority) or dismiss the concerns of those who have/will be displaced by urban highways (or widening).Quote from: Some one on December 16, 2023, 03:48:05 PM
I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.
1. I don't consider this forum's core identity to be pro-road. It's a forum about roads, therefore its participants should hopefully have an interest in roads—but that doesn't necessarily imply they're pro- roads. I, for one, don't really consider myself to be pro- or anti- roads: I'm interested in the roads that exist, I have a mild interest in their history, and I have a limited interest in projects in specific regions—but I very rarely have any strong opinion about whether any given project should be promoted or axed, or whatever. Other people on the forum seem to be keenly interested in signage, route numbering, clinching, maps, etc, but none of that actually tells you what they think about the value of roads in general.
2. Being pro-road...
a. ...doesn't mean you have to be anti- transit. Other than a few hardcore car-onlyists, most forum members value both, although just how much they value each one will vary from person to person.
b. ...doesn't mean you have to be pro- every road. It's perfectly reasonable to be pro-roads in general but still oppose a specific project, design, trend, etc.
3. Being pro-transit...
a. ...doesn't mean you have to be anti-road. See above. Again, though, specific beliefs and values will vary from to person to person, so someone's getting pissy "at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway)" doesn't necessarily mean that someone is anti-transit: he might just be pro- that urban highway, or he might be pro- urban highways and urban transit.
b. ...doesn't mean you have to be pro- every mode of transit, nor pro- transit in every situation. It's perfectly reasonable to love trains and hate buses, or vice versa, or to think light rail would be great in one city but not in another.
You are also right that it's not fair of me to make assumptions on someone based on their stances on (urban) highways or transit.
Quote from: Quillz on December 18, 2023, 05:12:54 PM^Quote from: Some one on December 16, 2023, 03:48:05 PMI suspect many of the overtly pro-freeway people here had the luxury of their neighborhood not being displaced by one.Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 10:00:41 PMAgreed. I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.Quote from: US20IL64 on November 11, 2023, 10:57:27 PM
One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in. :D
People really do need to learn that there is more than one mode of passenger transportation besides the automobile. Agreed. And reality provides its own constraints to the width of a ROW regardless of how any of us feels about it.
Unpopular opinion from me: Wisconsin should have single-digit state highways. WI-35 should be WI-1. :)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on December 18, 2023, 08:54:24 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on December 18, 2023, 08:54:24 PM
I've said before that a wise roadgeek would see the value in funding transit improvements—the more people there are on the bus, the less traffic there is on the roads you want to check out!
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: RobbieL2415 on December 19, 2023, 07:38:44 AM
Post by: RobbieL2415 on December 19, 2023, 07:38:44 AM
Why do drivers lean to the right when they're driving? I see many, particularly Boomer-aged, drivers who's heads are practically in line with the center console of their vehicle.
Doesn't that cause neck strain or something?
Doesn't that cause neck strain or something?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: freebrickproductions on December 19, 2023, 09:59:46 AM
Post by: freebrickproductions on December 19, 2023, 09:59:46 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 18, 2023, 08:54:24 PM
I've said before that a wise roadgeek would see the value in funding transit improvements—the more people there are on the bus, the less traffic there is on the roads you want to check out!
This. Even with those of us who like driving, being stuck in/as traffic for things like around-town errands/commuting ain't the most fun. There are things worse than having to take a bus and/or train to do your shopping/commute to work.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on December 19, 2023, 11:05:01 AM
Post by: kphoger on December 19, 2023, 11:05:01 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on December 19, 2023, 07:38:44 AM
Why do drivers lean to the right when they're driving? I see many, particularly Boomer-aged, drivers who's heads are practically in line with the center console of their vehicle.
Doesn't that cause neck strain or something?
Is that an upopular opinion?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Molandfreak on December 26, 2023, 06:27:55 PM
Post by: Molandfreak on December 26, 2023, 06:27:55 PM
I don't know why it's such a popular opinion on here that US 400 "adds nothing" to the system, because it does add something. Improving east-west connectivity for a metro area with over 500,000 people is a good enough justification to slap a US highway shield on it IMO. If it's just because it barely enters another state, US 166 is also right there, but that highway mysteriously doesn't get any forum-wide calls to decommission it.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on December 26, 2023, 07:03:11 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on December 26, 2023, 07:03:11 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on December 26, 2023, 06:27:55 PM
I don't know why it's such a popular opinion on here that US 400 "adds nothing" to the system, because it does add something. Improving east-west connectivity for a metro area with over 500,000 people is a good enough justification to slap a US highway shield on it IMO. If it's just because it barely enters another state, US 166 is also right there, but that highway mysteriously doesn't get any forum-wide calls to decommission it.
Grid perfectionism is a horrible disease that has ravaged the road fan community since time and memorial.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on December 26, 2023, 07:20:10 PM
Post by: formulanone on December 26, 2023, 07:20:10 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 26, 2023, 07:03:11 PMQuote from: Molandfreak on December 26, 2023, 06:27:55 PM
I don't know why it's such a popular opinion on here that US 400 "adds nothing" to the system, because it does add something. Improving east-west connectivity for a metro area with over 500,000 people is a good enough justification to slap a US highway shield on it IMO. If it's just because it barely enters another state, US 166 is also right there, but that highway mysteriously doesn't get any forum-wide calls to decommission it.
Grid perfectionism is a horrible disease that has ravaged the road fan community since time and memorial.
It's "time immemorial". (Which is probably a fossilized word because I don't think I've seen immemorial used alongside any other word.) Meanwhile, most people live somewhere that their own state doesn't have anything close to a grid numbering system for its own numbers.
Maybe because I grew up someplace where control cities didn't mean much in the southeast corner of the US, but control city arguments is also a petty pox.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: epzik8 on December 26, 2023, 09:09:33 PM
Post by: epzik8 on December 26, 2023, 09:09:33 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 26, 2023, 07:03:11 PMQuote from: Molandfreak on December 26, 2023, 06:27:55 PM
I don't know why it's such a popular opinion on here that US 400 "adds nothing" to the system, because it does add something. Improving east-west connectivity for a metro area with over 500,000 people is a good enough justification to slap a US highway shield on it IMO. If it's just because it barely enters another state, US 166 is also right there, but that highway mysteriously doesn't get any forum-wide calls to decommission it.
Grid perfectionism is a horrible disease that has ravaged the road fan community since time and memorial.
Most laymen don't care about a numbering grid anyhow. They just want to know which highways will take them to where they need to go.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on December 26, 2023, 11:09:58 PM
Post by: Rothman on December 26, 2023, 11:09:58 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 26, 2023, 07:03:11 PMMeh. US 400 is mostly concurrent with other established routes. Doesn't seem like it has much of a point.Quote from: Molandfreak on December 26, 2023, 06:27:55 PM
I don't know why it's such a popular opinion on here that US 400 "adds nothing" to the system, because it does add something. Improving east-west connectivity for a metro area with over 500,000 people is a good enough justification to slap a US highway shield on it IMO. If it's just because it barely enters another state, US 166 is also right there, but that highway mysteriously doesn't get any forum-wide calls to decommission it.
Grid perfectionism is a horrible disease that has ravaged the road fan community since time and memorial.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on December 28, 2023, 02:30:00 PM
Post by: kphoger on December 28, 2023, 02:30:00 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 26, 2023, 11:09:58 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on December 26, 2023, 07:03:11 PMQuote from: Molandfreak on December 26, 2023, 06:27:55 PM
I don't know why it's such a popular opinion on here that US 400 "adds nothing" to the system, because it does add something. Improving east-west connectivity for a metro area with over 500,000 people is a good enough justification to slap a US highway shield on it IMO. If it's just because it barely enters another state, US 166 is also right there, but that highway mysteriously doesn't get any forum-wide calls to decommission it.
Grid perfectionism is a horrible disease that has ravaged the road fan community since time and memorial.
Meh. US 400 is mostly concurrent with other established routes. Doesn't seem like it has much of a point.
West of Wichita, yes. But, between Wichita and Pittsburg (approx. 157 miles), only about one-fifth of US-400 is concurrent with other established routes. Furthermore, of the four US Routes that cross southeastern Kansas, US-400 has significantly more traffic than the other three—especially when it comes to truck traffic.
(https://i.imgur.com/uZYCvut.png)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: J N Winkler on December 28, 2023, 03:04:20 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on December 28, 2023, 03:04:20 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2023, 02:30:00 PMWest of Wichita, yes. But, between Wichita and Pittsburg (approx. 157 miles), only about one-fifth of US-400 is concurrent with other established routes. Furthermore, of the four US Routes that cross southeastern Kansas, US-400 has significantly more traffic than the other three—especially when it comes to truck traffic.
The traditional counterargument among the US 400 haters (NB: I do not necessarily agree with it) is that the segment east of Wichita largely replaced K-96, a "sensible" multi-state route that now exists only in pieces.
(I'd also add that US 400 actually does US 166 two better--it extends into Colorado as well as Missouri, and is over 400 miles in length. The fixation on US 400 entering another state "just to die," when US 166, US 177, and US 270 do precisely the same, is interesting.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on December 28, 2023, 03:15:18 PM
Post by: Rothman on December 28, 2023, 03:15:18 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 28, 2023, 03:04:20 PMPerhaps because US 400 is so much more recent and the other routes suffered through decades of changes to the overall system.Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2023, 02:30:00 PMWest of Wichita, yes. But, between Wichita and Pittsburg (approx. 157 miles), only about one-fifth of US-400 is concurrent with other established routes. Furthermore, of the four US Routes that cross southeastern Kansas, US-400 has significantly more traffic than the other three—especially when it comes to truck traffic.
The traditional counterargument among the US 400 haters (NB: I do not necessarily agree with it) is that the segment east of Wichita largely replaced K-96, a "sensible" multi-state route that now exists only in pieces.
(I'd also add that US 400 actually does US 166 two better--it extends into Colorado as well as Missouri, and is over 400 miles in length. The fixation on US 400 entering another state "just to die," when US 166, US 177, and US 270 do precisely the same, is interesting.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on December 28, 2023, 03:42:28 PM
Post by: kphoger on December 28, 2023, 03:42:28 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 28, 2023, 03:04:20 PM
The traditional counterargument among the US 400 haters (NB: I do not necessarily agree with it) is that the segment east of Wichita largely replaced K-96, a "sensible" multi-state route that now exists only in pieces.
IMO, a "sensible" multi-state route ... is basically what US Routes are supposed to be. So just make them US Routes.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on December 30, 2023, 01:36:34 PM
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on December 30, 2023, 01:36:34 PM
There is no such thing as a "multi-state route". Any such claims are actually as many different state routes as states crossed that just happen to have the same number.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: tmoore952 on December 30, 2023, 01:44:49 PM
Post by: tmoore952 on December 30, 2023, 01:44:49 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on December 30, 2023, 01:36:34 PM
There is no such thing as a "multi-state route". Any such claims are actually as many different state routes as states crossed that just happen to have the same number.
I hear you and understand what you are saying. But you make it sound like these are random occurrences, which I doubt very much is the case, especially in the northern plains Rt. 200 example (and I just noticed this is a different thread than the one I thought I was in).
Northern Delaware has a lot of these. Off the top of my head, DE 261, 273, 41, 299, 896, 52, 82, 491 (albeit very short, only 0.2 mile if that), 279 (another newer one which is short) --- are all state routes that derive their numbers from neighboring PA or MD. Granted that even the longest of these Delaware roads are relatively short due to the narrowness of the state.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on December 30, 2023, 07:13:27 PM
Post by: Rothman on December 30, 2023, 07:13:27 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on December 30, 2023, 01:36:34 PMMeh, we know what it means in this context.
There is no such thing as a "multi-state route". Any such claims are actually as many different state routes as states crossed that just happen to have the same number.
I'm more concerned with the term "federal highway" catching on from the other thread...
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on December 30, 2023, 09:29:49 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on December 30, 2023, 09:29:49 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 30, 2023, 07:13:27 PM
I'm more concerned with the term "federal highway" catching on from the other thread...
These people need to be forced to listen to a song about a little green shrub until they agree to stop using that term.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on December 31, 2023, 12:32:16 AM
Post by: formulanone on December 31, 2023, 12:32:16 AM
Quote from: Rothman on December 30, 2023, 07:13:27 PMQuote from: CNGL-Leudimin on December 30, 2023, 01:36:34 PMMeh, we know what it means in this context.
There is no such thing as a "multi-state route". Any such claims are actually as many different state routes as states crossed that just happen to have the same number.
I'm more concerned with the term "federal highway" catching on from the other thread...
And some of us know what that means without excessive persnicketyness...(or is that an "i", not a "y"? Dang it.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on December 31, 2023, 01:29:08 PM
Post by: Rothman on December 31, 2023, 01:29:08 PM
Quote from: formulanone on December 31, 2023, 12:32:16 AMFederal highway? No, some people think it means one thing, others think it means another...when, in reality, it's meaningless. Just read through the contradictory nonsense in that thread already.Quote from: Rothman on December 30, 2023, 07:13:27 PMQuote from: CNGL-Leudimin on December 30, 2023, 01:36:34 PMMeh, we know what it means in this context.
There is no such thing as a "multi-state route". Any such claims are actually as many different state routes as states crossed that just happen to have the same number.
I'm more concerned with the term "federal highway" catching on from the other thread...
And some of us know what that means without excessive persnicketyness...(or is that an "i", not a "y"? Dang it.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Bickendan on December 31, 2023, 01:54:42 PM
Post by: Bickendan on December 31, 2023, 01:54:42 PM
I'd rather 'national highway' were used over 'federal highway', but that itself is wrong.
Also, that could get confusing with India's National Highways.
Also, that could get confusing with India's National Highways.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: J N Winkler on December 31, 2023, 01:57:59 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on December 31, 2023, 01:57:59 PM
I kept schtum about it in Calrog's heyday so as not to encourage him, but a few state DOTs did use the term "federal highway" on plan sheet titles as a synonym for US highways. I get that Poiponen13 was searching for a catch-all term for US and Interstate highways, but "federal highway" wouldn't be it even if Calrog hadn't used it as part of his passion project to drive roadgeeks up the wall.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on December 31, 2023, 04:33:59 PM
Post by: formulanone on December 31, 2023, 04:33:59 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 31, 2023, 01:29:08 PMQuote from: formulanone on December 31, 2023, 12:32:16 AMFederal highway? No, some people think it means one thing, others think it means another...when, in reality, it's meaningless. Just read through the contradictory nonsense in that thread already.Quote from: Rothman on December 30, 2023, 07:13:27 PMQuote from: CNGL-Leudimin on December 30, 2023, 01:36:34 PMMeh, we know what it means in this context.
There is no such thing as a "multi-state route". Any such claims are actually as many different state routes as states crossed that just happen to have the same number.
I'm more concerned with the term "federal highway" catching on from the other thread...
And some of us know what that means without excessive persnicketyness...(or is that an "i", not a "y"? Dang it.)
Oh no, I stay out of those user's threads like I stay out of control city conversations.
I know it pains some folks but synonyms exist; even if no two words have exact same overlap of meaning there has to be a bridge between needless bickering.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on December 31, 2023, 05:21:30 PM
Post by: Rothman on December 31, 2023, 05:21:30 PM
Quote from: formulanone on December 31, 2023, 04:33:59 PM"Federal highway" means a different synonym to different people.Quote from: Rothman on December 31, 2023, 01:29:08 PMQuote from: formulanone on December 31, 2023, 12:32:16 AMFederal highway? No, some people think it means one thing, others think it means another...when, in reality, it's meaningless. Just read through the contradictory nonsense in that thread already.Quote from: Rothman on December 30, 2023, 07:13:27 PMQuote from: CNGL-Leudimin on December 30, 2023, 01:36:34 PMMeh, we know what it means in this context.
There is no such thing as a "multi-state route". Any such claims are actually as many different state routes as states crossed that just happen to have the same number.
I'm more concerned with the term "federal highway" catching on from the other thread...
And some of us know what that means without excessive persnicketyness...(or is that an "i", not a "y"? Dang it.)
Oh no, I stay out of those user's threads like I stay out of control city conversations.
I know it pains some folks but synonyms exist; even if no two words have exact same overlap of meaning there has to be a bridge between needless bickering.
The term is best left for the dustbin.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: ran4sh on December 31, 2023, 05:50:02 PM
Post by: ran4sh on December 31, 2023, 05:50:02 PM
Quote from: Quillz on December 18, 2023, 05:12:54 PMQuote from: Some one on December 16, 2023, 03:48:05 PMI suspect many of the overtly pro-freeway people here had the luxury of their neighborhood not being displaced by one.Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 10:00:41 PMAgreed. I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.Quote from: US20IL64 on November 11, 2023, 10:57:27 PM
One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in. :D
People really do need to learn that there is more than one mode of passenger transportation besides the automobile. Agreed. And reality provides its own constraints to the width of a ROW regardless of how any of us feels about it.
Unpopular opinion from me: Wisconsin should have single-digit state highways. WI-35 should be WI-1. :)
Or the opposite. Some of us are pro-freeway because we want a freeway built to our city/urban area when currently such a freeway option does not exist (accessing the Interstate system requires 20+ miles of travel on non-freeways).
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on December 31, 2023, 05:52:24 PM
Post by: Rothman on December 31, 2023, 05:52:24 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on December 31, 2023, 05:50:02 PMQuote from: Quillz on December 18, 2023, 05:12:54 PMQuote from: Some one on December 16, 2023, 03:48:05 PMI suspect many of the overtly pro-freeway people here had the luxury of their neighborhood not being displaced by one.Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 10:00:41 PMAgreed. I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.Quote from: US20IL64 on November 11, 2023, 10:57:27 PM
One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in. :D
People really do need to learn that there is more than one mode of passenger transportation besides the automobile. Agreed. And reality provides its own constraints to the width of a ROW regardless of how any of us feels about it.
Unpopular opinion from me: Wisconsin should have single-digit state highways. WI-35 should be WI-1. :)
Or the opposite. Some of us are pro-freeway because we want a freeway built to our city/urban area when currently such a freeway option does not exist (accessing the Interstate system requires 20+ miles of travel on non-freeways).
...as long as it doesn't require you to relocate...
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on December 31, 2023, 06:16:27 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on December 31, 2023, 06:16:27 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on December 31, 2023, 05:50:02 PMQuote from: Quillz on December 18, 2023, 05:12:54 PMQuote from: Some one on December 16, 2023, 03:48:05 PMI suspect many of the overtly pro-freeway people here had the luxury of their neighborhood not being displaced by one.Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 10:00:41 PMAgreed. I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.Quote from: US20IL64 on November 11, 2023, 10:57:27 PM
One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in. :D
People really do need to learn that there is more than one mode of passenger transportation besides the automobile. Agreed. And reality provides its own constraints to the width of a ROW regardless of how any of us feels about it.
Unpopular opinion from me: Wisconsin should have single-digit state highways. WI-35 should be WI-1. :)
Or the opposite. Some of us are pro-freeway because we want a freeway built to our city/urban area when currently such a freeway option does not exist (accessing the Interstate system requires 20+ miles of travel on non-freeways).
Does the traffic warrant more than that? Because we shouldn't be placing highways in random places just to make life more convenient.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hbelkins on December 31, 2023, 06:50:30 PM
Post by: hbelkins on December 31, 2023, 06:50:30 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 31, 2023, 01:57:59 PM
I kept schtum about it in Calrog's heyday so as not to encourage him, but a few state DOTs did use the term "federal highway" on plan sheet titles as a synonym for US highways. I get that Poiponen13 was searching for a catch-all term for US and Interstate highways, but "federal highway" wouldn't be it even if Calrog hadn't used it as part of his passion project to drive roadgeeks up the wall.
Thanks for reminding me to check MTR to see if Calrog has been active lately. He hasn't posted anything there since September of 2022.
But I did see that Google's Usenet access is going away in February. They will no longer allow posting to Usenet via Google Groups, and will no longer archive new Usenet postings.
https://support.google.com/groups/answer/11036538?visit_id=638396632087689691-1778193851&p=usenet&rd=1
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on December 31, 2023, 10:09:07 PM
Post by: vdeane on December 31, 2023, 10:09:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 31, 2023, 05:21:30 PMTo me "federal route" and related phrases evoke things like Mexico's federal routes, which unlike US routes and interstates, are actually owned/maintained by their federal government.Quote from: formulanone on December 31, 2023, 04:33:59 PM"Federal highway" means a different synonym to different people.Quote from: Rothman on December 31, 2023, 01:29:08 PMQuote from: formulanone on December 31, 2023, 12:32:16 AMFederal highway? No, some people think it means one thing, others think it means another...when, in reality, it's meaningless. Just read through the contradictory nonsense in that thread already.Quote from: Rothman on December 30, 2023, 07:13:27 PMQuote from: CNGL-Leudimin on December 30, 2023, 01:36:34 PMMeh, we know what it means in this context.
There is no such thing as a "multi-state route". Any such claims are actually as many different state routes as states crossed that just happen to have the same number.
I'm more concerned with the term "federal highway" catching on from the other thread...
And some of us know what that means without excessive persnicketyness...(or is that an "i", not a "y"? Dang it.)
Oh no, I stay out of those user's threads like I stay out of control city conversations.
I know it pains some folks but synonyms exist; even if no two words have exact same overlap of meaning there has to be a bridge between needless bickering.
The term is best left for the dustbin.
Oh, and Calrog, of course.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on December 31, 2023, 11:08:38 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on December 31, 2023, 11:08:38 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 31, 2023, 05:52:24 PMQuote from: ran4sh on December 31, 2023, 05:50:02 PMQuote from: Quillz on December 18, 2023, 05:12:54 PMQuote from: Some one on December 16, 2023, 03:48:05 PMI suspect many of the overtly pro-freeway people here had the luxury of their neighborhood not being displaced by one.Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 10:00:41 PMAgreed. I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.Quote from: US20IL64 on November 11, 2023, 10:57:27 PM
One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in. :D
People really do need to learn that there is more than one mode of passenger transportation besides the automobile. Agreed. And reality provides its own constraints to the width of a ROW regardless of how any of us feels about it.
Unpopular opinion from me: Wisconsin should have single-digit state highways. WI-35 should be WI-1. :)
Or the opposite. Some of us are pro-freeway because we want a freeway built to our city/urban area when currently such a freeway option does not exist (accessing the Interstate system requires 20+ miles of travel on non-freeways).
...as long as it doesn't require you to relocate...
Personally, I wouldn't mind if a government project required me to relocate, so long as staying in the same town or whatever is an option. Moving is disruptive, but it's not a permanent disruption. I'd prefer just taking the L and moving, as opposed to trying to fight it and having the uncertainty of how that is going to end up going hanging over my head (and then possibly having to move anyway).
I can see how it might bother someone whose grandpappy's pappy's grandpappy's dog's uncle's babysitter twice removed's uncle's grandpappy's cousin's cat's coworker's niece's nephew's brother's aunt's grandpappy has been on the land for 163 centuries might get perturbed about it, but that's never been me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on December 31, 2023, 11:10:50 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on December 31, 2023, 11:10:50 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 31, 2023, 10:09:07 PMQuote from: Rothman on December 31, 2023, 05:21:30 PMTo me "federal route" and related phrases evoke things like Mexico's federal routes, which unlike US routes and interstates, are actually owned/maintained by their federal government.Quote from: formulanone on December 31, 2023, 04:33:59 PM"Federal highway" means a different synonym to different people.Quote from: Rothman on December 31, 2023, 01:29:08 PMQuote from: formulanone on December 31, 2023, 12:32:16 AMFederal highway? No, some people think it means one thing, others think it means another...when, in reality, it's meaningless. Just read through the contradictory nonsense in that thread already.Quote from: Rothman on December 30, 2023, 07:13:27 PMQuote from: CNGL-Leudimin on December 30, 2023, 01:36:34 PMMeh, we know what it means in this context.
There is no such thing as a "multi-state route". Any such claims are actually as many different state routes as states crossed that just happen to have the same number.
I'm more concerned with the term "federal highway" catching on from the other thread...
And some of us know what that means without excessive persnicketyness...(or is that an "i", not a "y"? Dang it.)
Oh no, I stay out of those user's threads like I stay out of control city conversations.
I know it pains some folks but synonyms exist; even if no two words have exact same overlap of meaning there has to be a bridge between needless bickering.
The term is best left for the dustbin.
Oh, and Calrog, of course.
"Calrog" to me sounds like a small chain of local roasted chicken restaurants. I never knew the guy given I wasn't on MTR but every time I see his name it reminds me of the Kenny Rogers Roasters episode of Seinfeld for some weird reason.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on January 01, 2024, 01:04:41 AM
Post by: Rothman on January 01, 2024, 01:04:41 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 31, 2023, 11:08:38 PMHeh. That's not how residential eminent domain works in NY. You get compensated, but not relocated locally.Quote from: Rothman on December 31, 2023, 05:52:24 PMQuote from: ran4sh on December 31, 2023, 05:50:02 PMQuote from: Quillz on December 18, 2023, 05:12:54 PMQuote from: Some one on December 16, 2023, 03:48:05 PMI suspect many of the overtly pro-freeway people here had the luxury of their neighborhood not being displaced by one.Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 10:00:41 PMAgreed. I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.Quote from: US20IL64 on November 11, 2023, 10:57:27 PM
One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in. :D
People really do need to learn that there is more than one mode of passenger transportation besides the automobile. Agreed. And reality provides its own constraints to the width of a ROW regardless of how any of us feels about it.
Unpopular opinion from me: Wisconsin should have single-digit state highways. WI-35 should be WI-1. :)
Or the opposite. Some of us are pro-freeway because we want a freeway built to our city/urban area when currently such a freeway option does not exist (accessing the Interstate system requires 20+ miles of travel on non-freeways).
...as long as it doesn't require you to relocate...
Personally, I wouldn't mind if a government project required me to relocate, so long as staying in the same town or whatever is an option. Moving is disruptive, but it's not a permanent disruption. I'd prefer just taking the L and moving, as opposed to trying to fight it and having the uncertainty of how that is going to end up going hanging over my head (and then possibly having to move anyway).
I can see how it might bother someone whose grandpappy's pappy's grandpappy's dog's uncle's babysitter twice removed's uncle's grandpappy's cousin's cat's coworker's niece's nephew's brother's aunt's grandpappy has been on the land for 163 centuries might get perturbed about it, but that's never been me.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 01, 2024, 02:08:30 AM
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 01, 2024, 02:08:30 AM
Quote from: Rothman on January 01, 2024, 01:04:41 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on December 31, 2023, 11:08:38 PMHeh. That's not how residential eminent domain works in NY. You get compensated, but not relocated locally.Quote from: Rothman on December 31, 2023, 05:52:24 PMQuote from: ran4sh on December 31, 2023, 05:50:02 PMQuote from: Quillz on December 18, 2023, 05:12:54 PMQuote from: Some one on December 16, 2023, 03:48:05 PMI suspect many of the overtly pro-freeway people here had the luxury of their neighborhood not being displaced by one.Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 10:00:41 PMAgreed. I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.Quote from: US20IL64 on November 11, 2023, 10:57:27 PM
One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in. :D
People really do need to learn that there is more than one mode of passenger transportation besides the automobile. Agreed. And reality provides its own constraints to the width of a ROW regardless of how any of us feels about it.
Unpopular opinion from me: Wisconsin should have single-digit state highways. WI-35 should be WI-1. :)
Or the opposite. Some of us are pro-freeway because we want a freeway built to our city/urban area when currently such a freeway option does not exist (accessing the Interstate system requires 20+ miles of travel on non-freeways).
...as long as it doesn't require you to relocate...
Personally, I wouldn't mind if a government project required me to relocate, so long as staying in the same town or whatever is an option. Moving is disruptive, but it's not a permanent disruption. I'd prefer just taking the L and moving, as opposed to trying to fight it and having the uncertainty of how that is going to end up going hanging over my head (and then possibly having to move anyway).
I can see how it might bother someone whose grandpappy's pappy's grandpappy's dog's uncle's babysitter twice removed's uncle's grandpappy's cousin's cat's coworker's niece's nephew's brother's aunt's grandpappy has been on the land for 163 centuries might get perturbed about it, but that's never been me.
Within the 295/76/42 interchange project here in NJ, they had to buy up an apartment building or 2, but relocated the apartment building within the confines of the existing development. It was an unusual example of buying and relocating in NJ, due to unusual circumstances.
But usually, the State offers up money for a property; property owner can negotiate as they wish, and that's that. The State doesn't care if you move down the road, across town, or out of the state; their part of the deal is done.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on January 01, 2024, 06:40:33 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 01, 2024, 06:40:33 AM
I know. What I'm saying is I don't mind having to move if they pay out enough that I can afford (and can readily find) a place within a reasonable distance of where I lived before. (What would be a problem is if they lowballed me to where that wasn't possible. But most media stories about landowners opposing public works projects that I've seen over the last 40 years or so are people complaining about how they've owned this land for X number of years and they don't want to give it up, or some form of NIMBY shit. So I assume that means that most people are happy with the amount being offered by the DOT and have some other reason they don't want to take the deal.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on January 01, 2024, 08:25:56 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on January 01, 2024, 08:25:56 AM
My experience with people I know who have been relocated is that "if they pay enough" is the problem. There is only one buyer, and sure they are required to give you appraised value, but I think the appraisal industry is filled with nonsense anyway. Their customer (government, bank) wants them to hit a number - and if you don't hit it, the customer will go down the street to find someone who will.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on January 01, 2024, 08:34:52 AM
Post by: Rothman on January 01, 2024, 08:34:52 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 01, 2024, 02:08:30 AMThat's why I specified "residential." Businesses can be relocated under eminent domain.Quote from: Rothman on January 01, 2024, 01:04:41 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on December 31, 2023, 11:08:38 PMHeh. That's not how residential eminent domain works in NY. You get compensated, but not relocated locally.Quote from: Rothman on December 31, 2023, 05:52:24 PMQuote from: ran4sh on December 31, 2023, 05:50:02 PMQuote from: Quillz on December 18, 2023, 05:12:54 PMQuote from: Some one on December 16, 2023, 03:48:05 PMI suspect many of the overtly pro-freeway people here had the luxury of their neighborhood not being displaced by one.Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 12, 2023, 10:00:41 PMAgreed. I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.Quote from: US20IL64 on November 11, 2023, 10:57:27 PM
One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in. :D
People really do need to learn that there is more than one mode of passenger transportation besides the automobile. Agreed. And reality provides its own constraints to the width of a ROW regardless of how any of us feels about it.
Unpopular opinion from me: Wisconsin should have single-digit state highways. WI-35 should be WI-1. :)
Or the opposite. Some of us are pro-freeway because we want a freeway built to our city/urban area when currently such a freeway option does not exist (accessing the Interstate system requires 20+ miles of travel on non-freeways).
...as long as it doesn't require you to relocate...
Personally, I wouldn't mind if a government project required me to relocate, so long as staying in the same town or whatever is an option. Moving is disruptive, but it's not a permanent disruption. I'd prefer just taking the L and moving, as opposed to trying to fight it and having the uncertainty of how that is going to end up going hanging over my head (and then possibly having to move anyway).
I can see how it might bother someone whose grandpappy's pappy's grandpappy's dog's uncle's babysitter twice removed's uncle's grandpappy's cousin's cat's coworker's niece's nephew's brother's aunt's grandpappy has been on the land for 163 centuries might get perturbed about it, but that's never been me.
Within the 295/76/42 interchange project here in NJ, they had to buy up an apartment building or 2, but relocated the apartment building within the confines of the existing development. It was an unusual example of buying and relocating in NJ, due to unusual circumstances.
But usually, the State offers up money for a property; property owner can negotiate as they wish, and that's that. The State doesn't care if you move down the road, across town, or out of the state; their part of the deal is done.
Probably stems from the Econ 101 principle that labor is mobile...
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on January 01, 2024, 08:36:01 AM
Post by: Rothman on January 01, 2024, 08:36:01 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 01, 2024, 06:40:33 AMWhat you're saying is that you'll mind, given how this process usually goes.
I know. What I'm saying is I don't mind having to move if they pay out enough that I can afford (and can readily find) a place within a reasonable distance of where I lived before. (What would be a problem is if they lowballed me to where that wasn't possible. But most media stories about landowners opposing public works projects that I've seen over the last 40 years or so are people complaining about how they've owned this land for X number of years and they don't want to give it up, or some form of NIMBY shit. So I assume that means that most people are happy with the amount being offered by the DOT and have some other reason they don't want to take the deal.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: J N Winkler on January 01, 2024, 03:16:54 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on January 01, 2024, 03:16:54 PM
There is also the cold hard fact that certain negative impacts are not directly compensable. For example, if you own a business and the new freeway leads to lower turnover due to poorer visibility and more circuitous routes to access your premises, that is not grounds for compensation. If the added traffic leads to an increased noise level within your home that is still under the prescribed cutoffs for mitigations like noise walls, you are not going to get anything for it directly. A fair degree (though certainly not all) of NIMBY behavior is really about pulling procedural levers to incentivize the highway agency to offer a more favorable deal in terms of compensation or mitigation. From the agency's point of view, the difference between that and the initial offer is functionally a nuisance settlement.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: freebrickproductions on January 01, 2024, 05:38:18 PM
Post by: freebrickproductions on January 01, 2024, 05:38:18 PM
RE: "federal highways", personally I think a useful term as a catch-all for US Routes and Interstates would be "federally-designated highways", as I think one person in the thread discussed earlier proposed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on January 01, 2024, 05:42:07 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on January 01, 2024, 05:42:07 PM
But U.S. highways aren't "federally designated."
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hbelkins on January 01, 2024, 05:47:45 PM
Post by: hbelkins on January 01, 2024, 05:47:45 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 01, 2024, 01:04:41 AMHeh. That's not how residential eminent domain works in NY. You get compensated, but not relocated locally.
Kentucky offers compensation for the property as well as relocation assistance.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on January 01, 2024, 07:27:14 PM
Post by: Rothman on January 01, 2024, 07:27:14 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 01, 2024, 05:47:45 PMI don't know what this article says, but I'd love to know given your statement:Quote from: Rothman on January 01, 2024, 01:04:41 AMHeh. That's not how residential eminent domain works in NY. You get compensated, but not relocated locally.
Kentucky offers compensation for the property as well as relocation assistance.
https://www.courier-journal.com/story/opinion/columnists/gerth/2021/08/26/eminent-domain-kentucky-transportation-cabinet-takes-peoples-land/5471242001/
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on January 01, 2024, 07:56:26 PM
Post by: vdeane on January 01, 2024, 07:56:26 PM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on January 01, 2024, 05:38:18 PMAASHTO isn't part of the federal government, though. So with the exception of many of the more recent interstates (and I think one US route somewhere - 377, maybe?), those aren't even federally designated. FHWA does have to sign off with the interstates, but that's mainly to approve it becoming a part of the interstate system, not the number.
RE: "federal highways", personally I think a useful term as a catch-all for US Routes and Interstates would be "federally-designated highways", as I think one person in the thread discussed earlier proposed.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kkt on January 01, 2024, 08:03:50 PM
Post by: kkt on January 01, 2024, 08:03:50 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 27, 2021, 04:21:17 PM
While we're on the topic of traffic lights: It surprises me how few American drivers know that if the other side is backed up and you can't clear the intersection, you have to stop and wait, even on a green light. So many people just block the intersection because "green means go" and they'd rather worsen a traffic jam and possibly cause gridlock than follow the law.
I don't think not KNOWING the law is the problem. They probably observe that every light signal the other side backs up with people who turn right or left into it, leaving no room for people going straight during their green.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on January 01, 2024, 09:03:40 PM
Post by: vdeane on January 01, 2024, 09:03:40 PM
Quote from: kkt on January 01, 2024, 08:03:50 PMDo they? I've observed this behavior even with intersections where the overwhelming majority of traffic is going straight through.Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 27, 2021, 04:21:17 PM
While we're on the topic of traffic lights: It surprises me how few American drivers know that if the other side is backed up and you can't clear the intersection, you have to stop and wait, even on a green light. So many people just block the intersection because "green means go" and they'd rather worsen a traffic jam and possibly cause gridlock than follow the law.
I don't think not KNOWING the law is the problem. They probably observe that every light signal the other side backs up with people who turn right or left into it, leaving no room for people going straight during their green.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: RobbieL2415 on January 02, 2024, 01:26:58 PM
Post by: RobbieL2415 on January 02, 2024, 01:26:58 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 01, 2024, 09:03:40 PMThat isn't the law in my state, unless the intersection is checkerboard-striped and signed with the approriate "Do NOT Block Intersection" signage.Quote from: kkt on January 01, 2024, 08:03:50 PMDo they? I've observed this behavior even with intersections where the overwhelming majority of traffic is going straight through.Quote from: interstatefan990 on March 27, 2021, 04:21:17 PM
While we're on the topic of traffic lights: It surprises me how few American drivers know that if the other side is backed up and you can't clear the intersection, you have to stop and wait, even on a green light. So many people just block the intersection because "green means go" and they'd rather worsen a traffic jam and possibly cause gridlock than follow the law.
I don't think not KNOWING the law is the problem. They probably observe that every light signal the other side backs up with people who turn right or left into it, leaving no room for people going straight during their green.
Without those two things, there arguably isn't a legal mechanism to cite someone for blocking the intersection in CT.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: hbelkins on January 02, 2024, 02:40:04 PM
Post by: hbelkins on January 02, 2024, 02:40:04 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 01, 2024, 07:27:14 PMQuote from: hbelkins on January 01, 2024, 05:47:45 PMI don't know what this article says, but I'd love to know given your statement:Quote from: Rothman on January 01, 2024, 01:04:41 AMHeh. That's not how residential eminent domain works in NY. You get compensated, but not relocated locally.
Kentucky offers compensation for the property as well as relocation assistance.
https://www.courier-journal.com/story/opinion/columnists/gerth/2021/08/26/eminent-domain-kentucky-transportation-cabinet-takes-peoples-land/5471242001/
It's paywalled for me as well, but Joe Gerth isn't exactly a credible source of information.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on January 03, 2024, 02:23:33 PM
Post by: kphoger on January 03, 2024, 02:23:33 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 30, 2023, 09:29:49 PMQuote from: Rothman on December 30, 2023, 07:13:27 PM
I'm more concerned with the term "federal highway" catching on from the other thread...
These people need to be forced to listen to a song about a little green shrub until they agree to stop using that term.
In preparing to teach my son how to drive, I was looking through the official Kansas driving handbook. Under the list of state speed limits I found this nugget:
Quote from: https://www.ksrevenue.gov/pdf/dlhb.pdf
SPEED LIMITS (K.S.A. 8-1558)
Where no special hazards exist, the law sets maximum speeds for normal driving conditions.
Unless otherwise posted the maximum speeds are:
• In Towns or Cities:
Thirty (30) miles per hour in any urban district
• On Roads and Highways Outside of Towns:
Seventy-five (75) miles per hour on any separated, multilane highway as designated and
posted by the Secretary of Transportation
Sixty-five (65) miles per hour on any State or Federal Highway
Fifty-five (55) miles per hour on any County or Township road
In case anyone is wondering: no, the actual statute referenced does not use the phrase "Federal Highway". Instead, the wording in that part is "all other highways".
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Scott5114 on January 03, 2024, 04:07:10 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on January 03, 2024, 04:07:10 PM
How do you tell whether the Secretary of Transportation posted the speed limit, or if some guy in an orange vest did it?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on January 03, 2024, 04:13:49 PM
Post by: kphoger on January 03, 2024, 04:13:49 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 03, 2024, 04:07:10 PM
How do you tell whether the Secretary of Transportation posted the speed limit, or if some guy in an orange vest did it?
You know, I once had an encounter with a police officer in Illinois whose car said "Secretary of State" on it. I should have called the officer an imposter and refused to get in the car.
(But then again, he was my ride home: I was hitchhiking home from work, he stopped and tried to tell me it was against the law, he locked his keys in the car during our interaction, so he called a relative to run his spare set of keys, and then he gave me a ride home.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: J N Winkler on January 03, 2024, 04:18:00 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on January 03, 2024, 04:18:00 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 03, 2024, 04:07:10 PMHow do you tell whether the Secretary of Transportation posted the speed limit, or if some guy in an orange vest did it?
Good question. I suspect speed limits are minuted in some fashion, though they do not appear to be gazetted in the Kansas Register. The KDOT secretary also has an unilateral power to designate state highways that was inherited from the old State Highway Commission, and this is exercised through resolutions that are now available online through the Rural Resolutions database.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on January 03, 2024, 04:20:34 PM
Post by: kphoger on January 03, 2024, 04:20:34 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 03, 2024, 04:18:00 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on January 03, 2024, 04:07:10 PM
How do you tell whether the Secretary of Transportation posted the speed limit, or if some guy in an orange vest did it?
Good question. I suspect speed limits are minuted in some fashion, though they do not appear to be gazetted in the Kansas Register.
But does Calvin Reed actually drive around and post them? (And if so, does he wear an orange vest while doing so?)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: J N Winkler on January 04, 2024, 03:42:14 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on January 04, 2024, 03:42:14 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 03, 2024, 04:20:34 PMBut does Calvin Reed actually drive around and post them? (And if so, does he wear an orange vest while doing so?)
If he is actually doing that, he should also be wearing a hard hat as well as a fluorescent orange vest!
Seriously, though, I suspect all he does is sign his name to papers the deputy secretary of transportation--the senior permanent employee at KDOT and, I think, the institutional successor to the state highway engineer--passes to him.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on January 31, 2024, 02:44:33 PM
Post by: kphoger on January 31, 2024, 02:44:33 PM
Odd/Even numbering doesn't matter.
In both GSV shots shown below, the perspective is facing northbound.
New Madrid County, Missouri.
Northbound SSR-B at its northern terminus at MO-153.
Without cheating by looking at a map, tell me which way to turn for northbound MO-153.
(https://i.imgur.com/k7jLIvh.jpg)
Atascosa County, Texas.
Northbound FM-1333 at its junction with TX-173.
Without cheating by looking at a map, tell me which way to turn for northbound TX-173.
(https://i.imgur.com/XknnWAF.jpg)
In both GSV shots shown below, the perspective is facing northbound.
New Madrid County, Missouri.
Northbound SSR-B at its northern terminus at MO-153.
Without cheating by looking at a map, tell me which way to turn for northbound MO-153.
(https://i.imgur.com/k7jLIvh.jpg)
Atascosa County, Texas.
Northbound FM-1333 at its junction with TX-173.
Without cheating by looking at a map, tell me which way to turn for northbound TX-173.
(https://i.imgur.com/XknnWAF.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on January 31, 2024, 03:38:27 PM
Post by: formulanone on January 31, 2024, 03:38:27 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 31, 2024, 02:44:33 PM
Odd/Even numbering doesn't matter.
Atascosa County, Texas.
Northbound FM-1333 at its junction with TX-173.
Without cheating by looking at a map, tell me which way to turn for northbound TX-173.
(https://i.imgur.com/XknnWAF.jpg)
I think 99% of the routes in Texas are either diagonals or zig-zags, and numbering order is pointless.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on January 31, 2024, 04:03:10 PM
Post by: kphoger on January 31, 2024, 04:03:10 PM
Quote from: formulanone on January 31, 2024, 03:38:27 PM
numbering order is pointless
I agree with that statement in general. Everywhere.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on January 31, 2024, 04:24:12 PM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on January 31, 2024, 04:24:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 31, 2024, 04:03:10 PMQuote from: formulanone on January 31, 2024, 03:38:27 PM
numbering order is pointless
I agree with that statement in general. Everywhere.
Numbering perfectionism has driven me into league with numbering chaos. Chaos is infinitely more fun/interesting than order.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on January 31, 2024, 04:46:28 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on January 31, 2024, 04:46:28 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 31, 2024, 04:24:12 PMQuote from: kphoger on January 31, 2024, 04:03:10 PMQuote from: formulanone on January 31, 2024, 03:38:27 PM
numbering order is pointless
I agree with that statement in general. Everywhere.
Numbering perfectionism has driven me into league with numbering chaos. Chaos is infinitely more fun/interesting than order.
Order is fine when order is helpful.
Order isn't helpful when it comes to highway numbering. So I am 100% Team Chaos.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on January 31, 2024, 04:53:59 PM
Post by: kphoger on January 31, 2024, 04:53:59 PM
Quote from: formulanone on January 31, 2024, 03:38:27 PM
I think 99% of the routes in Texas are either diagonals or zig-zags, and numbering order is pointless.
So, in what scenario is numbering order not pointless? Without diagonals or zig-zags, you already know which direction is which.
My point with the images is that it's the Cardinal Direction auxiliary signs that actually matter.
And, if you need to know if the road goes to Hooterville or wherever, then just read the Destination Sign.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: wanderer2575 on January 31, 2024, 11:03:39 PM
Post by: wanderer2575 on January 31, 2024, 11:03:39 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 31, 2024, 04:24:12 PMQuote from: kphoger on January 31, 2024, 04:03:10 PMQuote from: formulanone on January 31, 2024, 03:38:27 PM
numbering order is pointless
I agree with that statement in general. Everywhere.
Numbering perfectionism has driven me into league with numbering chaos. Chaos is infinitely more fun/interesting than order.
I don't know about "fun/interesting," but a logical visual order (routes to the left, then straight, then to the right) is what's helpful.
As opposed to something like this mess:
(https://i.imgur.com/juxch6S.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 10:27:18 AM
Post by: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 10:27:18 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 31, 2024, 11:03:39 PM
this mess:
(https://i.imgur.com/juxch6S.jpg)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on February 01, 2024, 11:16:28 AM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on February 01, 2024, 11:16:28 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 31, 2024, 04:03:10 PMQuote from: formulanone on January 31, 2024, 03:38:27 PM
numbering order is pointless
I agree with that statement in general. Everywhere.
Years, street addresses, page numbers, mileposts, days of the month, building stories . . .
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Max Rockatansky on February 01, 2024, 11:24:52 AM
Post by: Max Rockatansky on February 01, 2024, 11:24:52 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on February 01, 2024, 11:16:28 AMQuote from: kphoger on January 31, 2024, 04:03:10 PMQuote from: formulanone on January 31, 2024, 03:38:27 PM
numbering order is pointless
I agree with that statement in general. Everywhere.
Years, street addresses, page numbers, mileposts, days of the month, building stories . . .
I'll die on that hill that Postmiles are superior to Mile Markers.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on February 01, 2024, 11:33:06 AM
Post by: SEWIGuy on February 01, 2024, 11:33:06 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 01, 2024, 11:24:52 AMQuote from: CtrlAltDel on February 01, 2024, 11:16:28 AMQuote from: kphoger on January 31, 2024, 04:03:10 PMQuote from: formulanone on January 31, 2024, 03:38:27 PM
numbering order is pointless
I agree with that statement in general. Everywhere.
Years, street addresses, page numbers, mileposts, days of the month, building stories . . .
I'll die on that hill that Postmiles are superior to Mile Markers.
Oh. What is a postmile?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:43:46 AM
Post by: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:43:46 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on February 01, 2024, 11:16:28 AMQuote from: kphoger on January 31, 2024, 04:03:10 PMQuote from: formulanone on January 31, 2024, 03:38:27 PM
numbering order is pointless
I agree with that statement in general. Everywhere.
Years, street addresses, page numbers, mileposts, days of the month, building stories . . .
Oh. Ha! Yeah, route numbers everywhere.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:48:08 AM
Post by: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:48:08 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on February 01, 2024, 11:16:28 AM
Years, street addresses, page numbers, mileposts, days of the month, building stories . . .
Years . . . hmm, yeah, that would be bad to have out of order. Also, there really needs to be a year zero.
Street addresses . . . someone needs to tell Arkansas. Seriously, please do.
Mileposts . . . are there any routes where exit numbers don't line up with mile markers?
Days of the month . . . oh my, that would be awful!
Building stories . . . actually, it might be fun to designate them with some other system. 105 W Indiana Ave, Giraffe Fl., Apt. 6 or something.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on February 01, 2024, 11:54:32 AM
Post by: JayhawkCO on February 01, 2024, 11:54:32 AM
Quote from: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:48:08 AM
Mileposts . . . are there any routes where exit numbers don't line up with mile markers?
In the US? One example is I-19.
Around the world? Most places...
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:55:43 AM
Post by: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:55:43 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 01, 2024, 11:54:32 AMQuote from: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:48:08 AM
Mileposts . . . are there any routes where exit numbers don't line up with mile markers?
In the US? One example is I-19.
So the question is . . . does it matter?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: webny99 on February 01, 2024, 12:08:27 PM
Post by: webny99 on February 01, 2024, 12:08:27 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 01, 2024, 11:54:32 AMQuote from: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:48:08 AM
Mileposts . . . are there any routes where exit numbers don't line up with mile markers?
In the US? One example is I-19.
Around the world? Most places...
And don't forget that most of the US Northeast (sadly including NY) still has sequential exit numbers which don't line up with the mile markers except by coincidence.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: vdeane on February 01, 2024, 12:43:20 PM
Post by: vdeane on February 01, 2024, 12:43:20 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:48:08 AMThat would be nice. Also, then we'd be able to use negative years and put the BC/AD vs. BCE/CE fight to rest for good.
Years . . . hmm, yeah, that would be bad to have out of order. Also, there really needs to be a year zero.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 01, 2024, 11:54:32 AMGoogle Street View is showing that I-19 has KM markers, so the posted distance markers and the exit numbers still match. Unlike DE 1, which has mile markers despite (most... not all) of the exit numbers being in KM (what a mess).Quote from: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:48:08 AM
Mileposts . . . are there any routes where exit numbers don't line up with mile markers?
In the US? One example is I-19.
Around the world? Most places...
Quote from: webny99 on February 01, 2024, 12:08:27 PMAs does much (most?) of Europe. And two Canadian provinces.Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 01, 2024, 11:54:32 AMQuote from: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:48:08 AM
Mileposts . . . are there any routes where exit numbers don't line up with mile markers?
In the US? One example is I-19.
Around the world? Most places...
And don't forget that most of the US Northeast (sadly including NY) still has sequential exit numbers which don't line up with the mile markers except by coincidence.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: JayhawkCO on February 01, 2024, 12:45:04 PM
Post by: JayhawkCO on February 01, 2024, 12:45:04 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 01, 2024, 12:43:20 PMQuote from: JayhawkCO on February 01, 2024, 11:54:32 AMGoogle Street View is showing that I-19 has KM markers, so the posted distance markers and the exit numbers still match. Unlike DE 1, which has mile markers despite (most... not all) of the exit numbers being in KM (what a mess).Quote from: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:48:08 AM
Mileposts . . . are there any routes where exit numbers don't line up with mile markers?
In the US? One example is I-19.
Around the world? Most places...
It does have km markers. But the exits don't match any mile markers either. :bigass:
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 01:04:54 PM
Post by: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 01:04:54 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 01, 2024, 12:45:04 PM
:bigass:
doodie head
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: J N Winkler on February 01, 2024, 01:35:05 PM
Post by: J N Winkler on February 01, 2024, 01:35:05 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:48:08 AMMileposts . . . are there any routes where exit numbers don't line up with mile markers?
In addition to I-19 (which does have mileposts, rotated 90° away from traffic, but whose exit numbers are coordinated with kilometerposts that are visible to traffic) and the remaining Eastern routes that still use sequential exit numbering, there are freeways in Texas (like US 75) whose exit numbers are not coordinated with the statewide location reference system.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 02:38:29 PM
Post by: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 02:38:29 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 01, 2024, 01:35:05 PM
Texas ... location reference system
Yeah . . . I don't really consider those to be mile markers. Unless you're on an arrow-straight highway heading due north/south/east/west, they aren't a mile apart.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Rothman on February 01, 2024, 02:52:16 PM
Post by: Rothman on February 01, 2024, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 01, 2024, 12:08:27 PMDepends on how you define "most" of the Northeast given conversions. Even VT has them "bannered."Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 01, 2024, 11:54:32 AMQuote from: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:48:08 AM
Mileposts . . . are there any routes where exit numbers don't line up with mile markers?
In the US? One example is I-19.
Around the world? Most places...
And don't forget that most of the US Northeast (sadly including NY) still has sequential exit numbers which don't line up with the mile markers except by coincidence.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: GaryV on February 01, 2024, 03:43:21 PM
Post by: GaryV on February 01, 2024, 03:43:21 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 01, 2024, 11:33:06 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on February 01, 2024, 11:24:52 AM
I'll die on that hill that Postmiles are superior to Mile Markers.
Oh. What is a postmile?
Those are the miles that are behind you.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on February 01, 2024, 03:52:40 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on February 01, 2024, 03:52:40 PM
Quote from: GaryV on February 01, 2024, 03:43:21 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on February 01, 2024, 11:33:06 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on February 01, 2024, 11:24:52 AM
I'll die on that hill that Postmiles are superior to Mile Markers.
Oh. What is a postmile?
Those are the miles that are behind you.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kkt on February 01, 2024, 03:56:29 PM
Post by: kkt on February 01, 2024, 03:56:29 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:48:08 AMQuote from: CtrlAltDel on February 01, 2024, 11:16:28 AM
Years, street addresses, page numbers, mileposts, days of the month, building stories . . .
Years . . . hmm, yeah, that would be bad to have out of order. Also, there really needs to be a year zero.
Street addresses . . . someone needs to tell Arkansas. Seriously, please do.
Mileposts . . . are there any routes where exit numbers don't line up with mile markers?
Days of the month . . . oh my, that would be awful!
Building stories . . . actually, it might be fun to designate them with some other system. 105 W Indiana Ave, Giraffe Fl., Apt. 6 or something.
Why do you think we need a year zero? How often do you calculate years between a BC date and an AD date?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 05:20:40 PM
Post by: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 05:20:40 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 01, 2024, 03:56:29 PM
Why do you think we need a year zero? How often do you calculate years between a BC date and an AD date?
Occasionally when researching the Roman Empire.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: SEWIGuy on February 01, 2024, 05:22:25 PM
Post by: SEWIGuy on February 01, 2024, 05:22:25 PM
So we move all of BC back a year?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 05:35:45 PM
Post by: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 05:35:45 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 01, 2024, 05:22:25 PM
So we move all of BC back a year?
Or move all AD forward a year. I don't care either way. Might make research even more difficult, though...
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: formulanone on February 01, 2024, 07:41:10 PM
Post by: formulanone on February 01, 2024, 07:41:10 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 01, 2024, 11:33:06 AMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on February 01, 2024, 11:24:52 AMQuote from: CtrlAltDel on February 01, 2024, 11:16:28 AMQuote from: kphoger on January 31, 2024, 04:03:10 PMQuote from: formulanone on January 31, 2024, 03:38:27 PM
numbering order is pointless
I agree with that statement in general. Everywhere.
Years, street addresses, page numbers, mileposts, days of the month, building stories . . .
I'll die on that hill that Postmiles are superior to Mile Markers.
Oh. What is a postmile?
West Coast Things which serve to confuse the rest of us
(Hey, as long as my post is taken out context.)
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on February 03, 2024, 05:04:01 AM
Post by: Quillz on February 03, 2024, 05:04:01 AM
To comment on an earlier discussion: I don't think you need some kind of numbering perfection by any means, but I do think any system starting from scratch should attempt some kind of meaningful order. Even if ends up being chaotic later on. I've never liked completely random setups from the start (i.e. where numbers are just assigned in the order they're built or thought of). I always prefer when attempts were made (like 1934 California), even if later on things don't have order.
I think a lot of it has to do with human nature. We generally want to find order in things. It's scary to think the universe is chaotic and disorderly. This is one of the reasons why it was once believed Earth was the center of the universe, and everything revolved around it. It was an attempt to bring order to chaos. I think humans like that.
I think a lot of it has to do with human nature. We generally want to find order in things. It's scary to think the universe is chaotic and disorderly. This is one of the reasons why it was once believed Earth was the center of the universe, and everything revolved around it. It was an attempt to bring order to chaos. I think humans like that.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kurumi on February 03, 2024, 02:46:43 PM
Post by: kurumi on February 03, 2024, 02:46:43 PM
^ same. I don't mind exceptions -- they add interest to what otherwise might be a rigid system -- but having that system is useful.
Sequential exit numbers have generally less benefit to motorists than mile-based numbers; but in the sequential era, "missing" or "extra" numbers would be a hint to abandoned or changed plans and other history.
Same for a geographic or other ordering of route numbers. I found a 1931 planning map of CT routes (just before the big renumber) with some handwritten numbers erased. Based on the system, I was reasonably confident of CT 23 as a working number in Stamford (and possibly CT 21 in Greenwich). If the numbers were haphazardly assigned, and there was no such thing as a "missing" route, I'd have no idea.
Sequential exit numbers have generally less benefit to motorists than mile-based numbers; but in the sequential era, "missing" or "extra" numbers would be a hint to abandoned or changed plans and other history.
Same for a geographic or other ordering of route numbers. I found a 1931 planning map of CT routes (just before the big renumber) with some handwritten numbers erased. Based on the system, I was reasonably confident of CT 23 as a working number in Stamford (and possibly CT 21 in Greenwich). If the numbers were haphazardly assigned, and there was no such thing as a "missing" route, I'd have no idea.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on February 03, 2024, 02:54:43 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on February 03, 2024, 02:54:43 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 05:35:45 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on February 01, 2024, 05:22:25 PM
So we move all of BC back a year?
Or move all AD forward a year. I don't care either way. Might make research even more difficult, though...
Another idea would be to use the Holocene calendar, which adds 10,000 to the current year. Essentially every human event that can be pinned down to a precise date has taken place in a positive year in this system.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: CtrlAltDel on February 03, 2024, 03:02:49 PM
Post by: CtrlAltDel on February 03, 2024, 03:02:49 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:48:08 AM
Years . . . hmm, yeah, that would be bad to have out of order. Also, there really needs to be a year zero.
I don't know. The current system without 0 has been in more or less common use for more than a thousand years, so if there's a need, it's a weak one.
Quote from: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:48:08 AM
Days of the month . . . oh my, that would be awful!
As you may know, since you mentioned Rome stuff earlier, the traditional Roman system of labeling dates with respect to the upcoming calends, nodes, and ides lasted a while, so depending on what we do here, it could be workable. (Incidentally, this system places the leap day on what we would call February 24.)
Quote from: kphoger on February 01, 2024, 11:48:08 AM
Building stories . . . actually, it might be fun to designate them with some other system. 105 W Indiana Ave, Giraffe Fl., Apt. 6 or something.
In Chicago and perhaps elsewhere, there is a number of buildings with vanity floor numbers, that is floor numbers higher than a count would indicate. Mostly it happens by creating a gap in the numbers at the top of the highest parking floor and the lowest occupied floor.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: pderocco on February 03, 2024, 10:42:06 PM
Post by: pderocco on February 03, 2024, 10:42:06 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on February 03, 2024, 02:54:43 PMThat's pretty close to the idea of using ten's complement numbering. We could keep AD the same, and count down before that as 2, 1, 0, 9999, 9998, 9997, etc., like a 4-digit odometer. Then, everything is a positive number, and all arithmetic would be modulo 10000.
Another idea would be to use the Holocene calendar, which adds 10,000 to the current year. Essentially every human event that can be pinned down to a precise date has taken place in a positive year in this system.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on March 31, 2024, 06:56:41 PM
Post by: Quillz on March 31, 2024, 06:56:41 PM
I've been thinking about how, assuming the shields were redesigned, 4di (and perhaps 4dus) can work fine. I'd use them specifically for auxiliaries that branch off another auxiliary. So something like 990 in New York would be 1290 (i.e. 1+290). This would make them pretty limited in practice, yet still be consistent if they were applied this way.
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: kphoger on April 05, 2024, 03:17:40 PM
Post by: kphoger on April 05, 2024, 03:17:40 PM
Quote from: Quillz on March 31, 2024, 06:56:41 PMI've been thinking about how, assuming the shields were redesigned, 4di (and perhaps 4dus) can work fine. I'd use them specifically for auxiliaries that branch off another auxiliary. So something like 990 in New York would be 1290 (i.e. 1+290). This would make them pretty limited in practice, yet still be consistent if they were applied this way.
1290 shouldn't take up any more space on the shield than H201, should it?
Title: Re: Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions
Post by: Quillz on April 05, 2024, 03:34:21 PM
Post by: Quillz on April 05, 2024, 03:34:21 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 05, 2024, 03:17:40 PMI think those need Series B to fit, unless you reduce the vertical height. Series C is preferable.Quote from: Quillz on March 31, 2024, 06:56:41 PMI've been thinking about how, assuming the shields were redesigned, 4di (and perhaps 4dus) can work fine. I'd use them specifically for auxiliaries that branch off another auxiliary. So something like 990 in New York would be 1290 (i.e. 1+290). This would make them pretty limited in practice, yet still be consistent if they were applied this way.
1290 shouldn't take up any more space on the shield than H201, should it?