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PA Turnpike Ratings for Freeway Junctions

Started by Beltway, May 23, 2017, 07:10:14 PM

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Gnutella

Quote from: Beltway on October 07, 2017, 08:21:16 AM
Quote from: Gnutella on October 07, 2017, 03:43:18 AM
Quote from: Beltway on June 10, 2017, 07:02:25 PMAnd far enough west that it is not considered Northeastern, but is Midwestern.  They also rebounded from the massive decline of the steel industry from the 1950s to the 1970s, an industry which had a massive presence there, and restructured the economy toward service businesses and expansion of colleges and universities.
Honestly, it boggles my mind that a city located in one of the 13 original colonies and longitudinally east of the entire state of Florida could be considered Midwestern. Sure, Pittsburgh is close enough to the actual Midwest that it does have a slight Midwestern influence in its culture, but if you ask 100 natives of Chicago if they consider Pittsburgh to be Midwestern, 99 of them would say no, and the other one wouldn't be sure. Personally, I think western Pennsylvania, western New York, western Maryland and the northern third of West Virginia are the "interior Northeast": not East Coast, but not Midwestern either. In fact, there seems to be more Appalachian than Midwestern cultural influence. I guess you could say that the interior Northeast is where the East Coast meets the Appalachians.
The boundary between the Northeast and Midwest is an indefinite one somewhere between Pittsburgh and Cleveland. Assuming a downtown-to-downtown drive and an average speed of 60 MPH including stops, Pittsburgh is 4:02 from Washington DC, 4:08 from Baltimore, 5:04 from Philadelphia, and 6:09 from New York, but 7:40 from Chicago. Conversely, Cleveland is 5:43 from Chicago, but 6:12 from Washington DC, 6:15 from Baltimore, 7:11 from Philadelphia, and 7:42 from New York. This is important because driving distance to the East Coast cities versus Chicago is often used as a method of delineation between the Northeast and Midwest. On top of that, anything more than a roughly six-hour drive is considered "out of the way" for easy travel by most people.

"if you ask 100 natives of Chicago if they consider Pittsburgh to be Midwestern,"

Relative geographic reference is an imprecise tool.  I grew up in central Florida and from there everything appears "up north".  When we moved to Virginia, over 900 miles to the north, that seemed to us to be "way up north".    :-/

Nonetheless, Pittsburgh is a) located in a Northeastern state, b) almost 100 miles closer to New York than it is to Chicago, c) incorporated before 1776, and d) located in the Appalachian Mountains, so calling it a Midwestern city makes no sense at all.


Beltway

Quote from: Gnutella on October 11, 2017, 07:01:44 AM
Quote from: Beltway on October 07, 2017, 08:21:16 AM
"if you ask 100 natives of Chicago if they consider Pittsburgh to be Midwestern,"
Relative geographic reference is an imprecise tool.  I grew up in central Florida and from there everything appears "up north".  When we moved to Virginia, over 900 miles to the north, that seemed to us to be "way up north".    :-/
Nonetheless, Pittsburgh is a) located in a Northeastern state, b) almost 100 miles closer to New York than it is to Chicago, c) incorporated before 1776, and d) located in the Appalachian Mountains, so calling it a Midwestern city makes no sense at all.

PA is over 300 miles east to west, and borders on Lake Erie, so calling all of it "Northeastern" can be questioned as it is in this thread.

Pittsburgh is almost 100 miles west of the Appalachian Mountains.
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02 Park Ave

They drink "pop" in Pittsburgh not "soda".  That should be the clincher.
C-o-H

Beltway

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on October 11, 2017, 07:39:09 AM
They drink "pop" in Pittsburgh not "soda".  That should be the clincher.

A quick search shows many articles that have debated this topic, with a wide diversity of opinion on where Pittsburgh fits.  Some have said that is near the boundary between Northeastern and Midwestern, but the location of that 'boundary'  has been debated as well.
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http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Beltway on October 11, 2017, 07:13:54 AM
Pittsburgh is almost 100 miles west of the Appalachian Mountains.


It is about 82 miles from the home stadium of the Allegheny County NFL team to the west portals of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel on the Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-70 and I-76).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

jemacedo9

From a geography standpoint, Pittsburgh and Western NY don't seem Midwest...but from a cultural and economic standpoint, those areas are much more Midwest than Northeast...and I think that's where this comes from.

Mr_Northside

Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 11, 2017, 11:46:03 AM
Quote from: Beltway on October 11, 2017, 07:13:54 AM
Pittsburgh is almost 100 miles west of the Appalachian Mountains.


It is about 82 miles from the home stadium of the Allegheny County NFL team to the west portals of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel on the Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-70 and I-76).

I would put the base of Chestnut Ridge as the edge (about between Donegal & New Stanton) and say it's about 50 miles "as the crow flies"
Someone on the forums captured a nice pic of some of the USX & Mellon towers (downtown PGH) that are visible from the decent of 3 mile hill (part of Chestnut Ridge, where PA-31 climbs the hill).
I don't have opinions anymore. All I know is that no one is better than anyone else, and everyone is the best at everything

BigRedDog

#82
Quote from: Mr_Northside on October 11, 2017, 06:05:18 PM
Someone on the forums captured a nice pic of some of the USX & Mellon towers (downtown PGH) that are visible from the decent of 3 mile hill (part of Chestnut Ridge, where PA-31 climbs the hill).

On these forums? I'd like to see that; it almost seems impossible. Not that I'm doubting you - it's just hard to believe!)  :-o

Edit to add: found it! Them, actually. For the interested: Photo 1 and Photo 2.

qguy

Quote from: jemacedo9 on October 11, 2017, 01:44:31 PM
From a geography standpoint, Pittsburgh and Western NY don't seem Midwest...but from a cultural and economic standpoint, those areas are much more Midwest than Northeast...and I think that's where this comes from.

^^^^
This right here is the money line. Pittsburgh is demographically midwest, not geographically.

We can toss it back and forth on this forum for days, but demographers point to Pittsburgh as the first midwestern city one comes to as you move west from New York City. To be sure, it is a transitional city, but it's not part of the "east coast" complex.

And this does make sense historically. We often think that the original thirteen colonies always had the shapes that those states currently have, but that's not the case. Some did, but most did not. Even during the time of the revolution, in Pennsylvania the frontier was a wavy line down the middle of the state. And everything west of that was "the west," wilderness. The western borders had not yet been definitively established. Same with upstate New York. Pittsburgh was an outpost well beyond the frontier, not part of the colony/state proper.

So Pittsburgh being a midwest city does make a great deal of sense, in many ways.

VTGoose

Quote from: qguy on October 12, 2017, 06:51:55 AM
Quote from: jemacedo9 on October 11, 2017, 01:44:31 PM
From a geography standpoint, Pittsburgh and Western NY don't seem Midwest...but from a cultural and economic standpoint, those areas are much more Midwest than Northeast...and I think that's where this comes from.

^^^^
This right here is the money line. Pittsburgh is demographically midwest, not geographically.

We can toss it back and forth on this forum for days, but demographers point to Pittsburgh as the first midwestern city one comes to as you move west from New York City. To be sure, it is a transitional city, but it's not part of the "east coast" complex.

Yinz are a bunch of jagoffs :-)  but this is the closest answer about how and where Pittsburgh falls in the scheme of things. Then there is the whole "linguistic" thing about "Pittsburghese" and the Pittsburgh accent. For the most part, the way natives speak is more neutral midwestern (as opposed to say, a Boston accent or Southern), but there is enough difference and plenty of words that will flag someone as being from Western Pennsylvania. I can hear someone interviewed on the news and pretty quickly tell that the person is in or from Western Pa. I never did quite develop the nasal twang of a Pittsburgh native but I do pronounce and use a variety of Pittsburghese.   

QuoteAnd this does make sense historically. We often think that the original thirteen colonies always had the shapes that those states currently have, but that's not the case. Some did, but most did not. Even during the time of the revolution, in Pennsylvania the frontier was a wavy line down the middle of the state. And everything west of that was "the west," wilderness. The western borders had not yet been definitively established. Same with upstate New York. Pittsburgh was an outpost well beyond the frontier, not part of the colony/state proper.

So Pittsburgh being a midwest city does make a great deal of sense, in many ways.

Don't forget the dispute between Pennsylvania and Virginia over who "owned" the territory which today is Ohio. Virginia claimed everything from Tidewater to the Great Lakes. The western boundary of Pennsylvania was set by the charter granted to William Penn but it was a bit fuzzy. It took many years before the north-south line that today is the western edge of Pennsylvania was resolved. See http://www.virginiaplaces.org/boundaries/paboundary.html for a great discussion of this, complete with maps.

To bring this back to roads, there were two routes that were cut through the wilderness at the time -- Braddock's Road from Maryland through Fort Necessity to Fort Duquesne (later Fort Pitt), which later became U.S. 40 and PA 51, and Forbes Road from Fort Littleton to Fort Bedford, Fort Ligonier, and on to Fort Duquesne, which later became U.S. 30 (both with some variations).

Bruce in Blacksburg -- but a native of the 'Burgh
"Get in the fast lane, grandma!  The bingo game is ready to roll!"

Mr_Northside

Quote from: BigRedDog on October 12, 2017, 01:10:05 AM
Quote from: Mr_Northside on October 11, 2017, 06:05:18 PM
Someone on the forums captured a nice pic of some of the USX & Mellon towers (downtown PGH) that are visible from the decent of 3 mile hill (part of Chestnut Ridge, where PA-31 climbs the hill).

On these forums? I'd like to see that; it almost seems impossible. Not that I'm doubting you - it's just hard to believe!)  :-o

Edit to add: found it! Them, actually. For the interested: Photo 1 and Photo 2.

You can even make out the USX & Mellon towers on GSV zoomed in (this is more like what it looks to the naked eye, as opposed the zoom on those photos)
https://goo.gl/maps/TSwuvZLX78L2

I don't have opinions anymore. All I know is that no one is better than anyone else, and everyone is the best at everything

BigRedDog

Quote from: Mr_Northside on October 12, 2017, 05:35:09 PM
Quote from: BigRedDog on October 12, 2017, 01:10:05 AM
Quote from: Mr_Northside on October 11, 2017, 06:05:18 PM
Someone on the forums captured a nice pic of some of the USX & Mellon towers (downtown PGH) that are visible from the decent of 3 mile hill (part of Chestnut Ridge, where PA-31 climbs the hill).

On these forums? I'd like to see that; it almost seems impossible. Not that I'm doubting you - it's just hard to believe!)  :-o

Edit to add: found it! Them, actually. For the interested: Photo 1 and Photo 2.

You can even make out the USX & Mellon towers on GSV zoomed in (this is more like what it looks to the naked eye, as opposed the zoom on those photos)
https://goo.gl/maps/TSwuvZLX78L2

Thanks for that! I've lived in SW PA for all my almost 40 years (save for one year) and I've been on that stretch of PA-31 many, many times. I have never noticed the Towers in the distance. It makes me want to drive out that way now and check it out. (Well, not right now... it's dark...)

Mr_Northside

Quote from: BigRedDog on October 12, 2017, 07:16:18 PM
Thanks for that! I've lived in SW PA for all my almost 40 years (save for one year) and I've been on that stretch of PA-31 many, many times. I have never noticed the Towers in the distance. It makes me want to drive out that way now and check it out. (Well, not right now... it's dark...)

It has to be a pretty clear day.  If it's too cloudy or hazy, then you can't see it. 
I grew up about 5-6 miles north of there along the ridgeline, and there was an abandoned strip mine I could walk to from home that gave a vantage point you could see downtown (looked about the same with the naked eye - could see more with binoculars).
There was some massive downtown department store fire in the late 90's, and on the news people from up on the ridge called in to report they could see the smoke from up there.
I don't have opinions anymore. All I know is that no one is better than anyone else, and everyone is the best at everything

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Mr_Northside on October 11, 2017, 06:05:18 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 11, 2017, 11:46:03 AM
Quote from: Beltway on October 11, 2017, 07:13:54 AM
Pittsburgh is almost 100 miles west of the Appalachian Mountains.


It is about 82 miles from the home stadium of the Allegheny County NFL team to the west portals of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel on the Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-70 and I-76).

I would put the base of Chestnut Ridge as the edge (about between Donegal & New Stanton) and say it's about 50 miles "as the crow flies"
Someone on the forums captured a nice pic of some of the USX & Mellon towers (downtown PGH) that are visible from the decent of 3 mile hill (part of Chestnut Ridge, where PA-31 climbs the hill).

I used the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel portals because the ridgetop that the tunnel tubes pass under is also the Eastern Continental Divide. 

On the west side, the streams drain to the Allegheny, Ohio and ultimately the Mississippi Rivers and out to the Gulf of Mexico.

On the east side, the streams flow to the Juniata and Susquehanna Rivers, then the Chesapeake Bay and the Atlantic Ocean.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.