Control City signs that suggest the slower route

[Roadgeekteen]

At the south end of the I-81 and I-86 concurrency, I-86 east is signed for NYC. But it is quicker to take I-81 south. Any other signs like this?

[PHLBOS]

Along US 202 northbound/322 westbound outside of West Chester, PA at where the two routes split: US 322 to Downingtown.

[briantroutman]

I mentioned this in another thread elsewhere, but I-80 has an odd relationship with Williamsport as a control city. While Williamsport doesn't appear on any large I-80 guide signs (to my knowledge), the city is used on ground-mounted route sign assemblies between Bellefonte and Bloomsburg (though for whatever reason, not at Danville).

In the eastbound direction at Bellefonte and Lamar, the mileage sign lists Williamsport on the bottom line and is calculated based on taking I-80 East to US 220 North–which is logical. But when you're on US 220 at I-80 (Exit 187), and Williamsport is a 28-mile drive straight up US 220, the I-80 East ramp is marked "Williamsport" –49 miles via I-80 East and US 15 North.

[TheStranger]

Here's one that is pretty subjective:

At the 170/5 split southbound, 5 is signed for "Los Angeles" and 170 is signed for "Hollywood."

Notwithstanding traffic conditions and the fact that you are already firmly in the LA city limits at this interchange, whichever route is quicker to downtown LA really is entirely dependent on which destinations one is going to (Civic Center, Bunker Hill, or the Staples Center area).

[jp the roadgeek]

In Maryland, you have I-95 North for NY, but it fails to tell you when you get to Delaware that taking 295 and the NJTP is faster than staying on 95 through Philly, although the new interchange has closed the gap immensely.

At the I-84/I-384 split, I-384's control is Providence, even though it doesn't get within 60 miles of the city, and staying on I-84 to CT 74 to US 44 to CT/RI 101 to US 6 is a better option than I-384/US 6.

[Roadgeekteen]

Also, I-95 southbound at the I-295 interchange suggests staying on I-95 to get to Portland.

[dbz77]

At the south end of the I-81 and I-86 concurrency, I-86 east is signed for NYC. But it is quicker to take I-81 south. Any other signs like this?

US-101 southbound in San Jose, California, using  Los Angeles as a control city, even though it would be quicker to use 152 east to I-5 south. (The choice of control city likely dates back to before the 152 was straightened and widened in 1965 to go around the San Luis Reservoir. http://libraryarchives.metro.net/DPGTL/Californiahighways/chpw_1965_julaug.pdf)

[mrsman]

Here's one that is pretty subjective:

At the 170/5 split southbound, 5 is signed for "Los Angeles" and 170 is signed for "Hollywood."

Notwithstanding traffic conditions and the fact that you are already firmly in the LA city limits at this interchange, whichever route is quicker to downtown LA really is entirely dependent on which destinations one is going to (Civic Center, Bunker Hill, or the Staples Center area).

It would be really difficult to have traffic as a factor in road signage.  The important factors to consider are mileage and quality of the road.  Using both of those factors, one way would generally be the best overall way.  On this front, 170 would be the winner as it is more direct.

I agree that at 170/5 the choice is often a crapshoot and it is based a lot on the ultimate destination within Downtown.  However, the freeways in Los Angeles seem to use the 4-level interchange as the point for being in Los Angeles.  Another important factor is trucks which are prohibited on 110, so if their destination is within regular Downtown they need to take 170-101, but if their destination is to the industrial areas, I-5 may be closer.

I've never liked that this interchange suggests I-5 only as the route to L.A.  The southbound control on 170, as seen from on-ramps in the Valley and on the freeway itself is Los Angeles, except at the 5/170 split.  My preference would be 2 control cities:  I-5--Burbank/Los Angeles, CA-170--Hollywood/Los Angeles.  The choice is really equal as far as Downtown LA is concerned.

[TheStranger]

I agree that at 170/5 the choice is often a crapshoot and it is based a lot on the ultimate destination within Downtown.  However, the freeways in Los Angeles seem to use the 4-level interchange as the point for being in Los Angeles.  Another important factor is trucks which are prohibited on 110, so if their destination is within regular Downtown they need to take 170-101, but if their destination is to the industrial areas, I-5 may be closer.

I've never liked that this interchange suggests I-5 only as the route to L.A.  The southbound control on 170, as seen from on-ramps in the Valley and on the freeway itself is Los Angeles, except at the 5/170 split.  My preference would be 2 control cities:  I-5--Burbank/Los Angeles, CA-170--Hollywood/Los Angeles.  The choice is really equal as far as Downtown LA is concerned.

This is definitely one of those (many) times I strongly believe in getting more specific with destinations once one enters a city, as opposed to continuing to sign roads in Los Angeles for LA as a destination.

i.e.

Route 170 Hollywood/Civic Center
I-5 Burbank/LA Convention Center

Not the best variation but one that tries to highlight the different parts of downtown one reaches depending on which road they take.  (While 170-101-110 is shorter to get to the Staples/convention center area, I'm factoring in that 5 leads directly into 10 west)


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In SF, it's interesting at the Alemany Maze how US 101's northbound control city is "Civic Center/Bay Bridge" while I-280's is "Downtown SF" which I think has only been used since the late 90s. (In fact, this is the only place where Downtown SF is used as the control - the last I-280 pullthrough control, at the Cesar Chavez Street exit, is "6th Street").  Civic Center itself is a downtown neighborhood, while 280 ends in the Mission Bay/South Beach part of SOMA but doesn't itself get to the heart of the downtown core.  In fact, 101 to 80 gets a bit closer to the Financial District area, though not as direct as the old 101-80-480 routing did! 

There was at least one sign along 280 near Mariposa Street that encouraged the use of 280 to King Street to access Fishermans Wharf via the Embarcadero.

I can understand not wanting to message load too much, but I almost feel like this could be fine-tuned:

US 101 NORTH TO I-80
Civic Center
Bay Bridge

I-280 NORTH
Mission Bay
Fisherman's Wharf

For that matter, once the new Warriors arena opens this fall, Cesar Chavez Street's ramp from 280 could also have signage identifying it as the best exit to there.

Due to a severe lack of large overhead signage in the South of Market area, there's no longer any signage from 280 north identifying how to get to 80, and there has never been any signage from 80 west to identify how to get to 280 south.  (There had been a sign for I-80 Bay Bridge between Mariposa and 6th in the past, but I think it was removed in the early 2000s)  The signage on the surface streets between the 6th Street/280 offramp and the 5th Street/80 junction is pretty small in size.

In a perfect world, 6th Street would be signed "TO I-80" from I-280 and 5th Street would be signed "TO I-280 South" from I-80.

[mrsman]

I agree that at 170/5 the choice is often a crapshoot and it is based a lot on the ultimate destination within Downtown.  However, the freeways in Los Angeles seem to use the 4-level interchange as the point for being in Los Angeles.  Another important factor is trucks which are prohibited on 110, so if their destination is within regular Downtown they need to take 170-101, but if their destination is to the industrial areas, I-5 may be closer.

I've never liked that this interchange suggests I-5 only as the route to L.A.  The southbound control on 170, as seen from on-ramps in the Valley and on the freeway itself is Los Angeles, except at the 5/170 split.  My preference would be 2 control cities:  I-5--Burbank/Los Angeles, CA-170--Hollywood/Los Angeles.  The choice is really equal as far as Downtown LA is concerned.

This is definitely one of those (many) times I strongly believe in getting more specific with destinations once one enters a city, as opposed to continuing to sign roads in Los Angeles for LA as a destination.

i.e.

Route 170 Hollywood/Civic Center
I-5 Burbank/LA Convention Center

Not the best variation but one that tries to highlight the different parts of downtown one reaches depending on which road they take.  (While 170-101-110 is shorter to get to the Staples/convention center area, I'm factoring in that 5 leads directly into 10 west)


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In SF, it's interesting at the Alemany Maze how US 101's northbound control city is "Civic Center/Bay Bridge" while I-280's is "Downtown SF" which I think has only been used since the late 90s. (In fact, this is the only place where Downtown SF is used as the control - the last I-280 pullthrough control, at the Cesar Chavez Street exit, is "6th Street").  Civic Center itself is a downtown neighborhood, while 280 ends in the Mission Bay/South Beach part of SOMA but doesn't itself get to the heart of the downtown core.  In fact, 101 to 80 gets a bit closer to the Financial District area, though not as direct as the old 101-80-480 routing did! 

There was at least one sign along 280 near Mariposa Street that encouraged the use of 280 to King Street to access Fishermans Wharf via the Embarcadero.

I can understand not wanting to message load too much, but I almost feel like this could be fine-tuned:

US 101 NORTH TO I-80
Civic Center
Bay Bridge

I-280 NORTH
Mission Bay
Fisherman's Wharf

For that matter, once the new Warriors arena opens this fall, Cesar Chavez Street's ramp from 280 could also have signage identifying it as the best exit to there.

Due to a severe lack of large overhead signage in the South of Market area, there's no longer any signage from 280 north identifying how to get to 80, and there has never been any signage from 80 west to identify how to get to 280 south.  (There had been a sign for I-80 Bay Bridge between Mariposa and 6th in the past, but I think it was removed in the early 2000s)  The signage on the surface streets between the 6th Street/280 offramp and the 5th Street/80 junction is pretty small in size.

In a perfect world, 6th Street would be signed "TO I-80" from I-280 and 5th Street would be signed "TO I-280 South" from I-80.

As we know the different Caltrans districts sometimes act as though they were different states.  FWIW, D7 always signed L.A. on the freeways as a control city well within the L.A. city limits and if you keep following the control (from basically anywhere, even NorCal, NV, or AZ) it will get you onto either the 101 section between the 4-level and Union Station, or the 110 section between the 4-level and I-10.

I don't think many people distinguish between Downtown and the Civic Center, so making that a big distinction on the signs isn't helpful.  It is true that when you are really close to Downtown the signs on the freeways will say "Downtown" or "Civic Center".  "Downtown" leads people from the -110/10 interchange onto 110 towards 9th, 6th, or 4th, or along the SB 110, beyond the Hill Street exit in Chinatown towards the 4-level and then 4th, 6th, or 9th.  "Civic Center" is used as the control from the East LA interchange to guide people onto US 101 (not I-10) and from thence most likely to L.A. or Spring or Grand.  From the SB 110, "Civic Center" is the control for Hill Street.  There, you have a stark choice between "Downtown" (likely towards the fancy office buildings in Bunker Hill) along the 110 or "Civic Center" (towards City Hall and other govt buildings) via Hill Street and Chinatown.

As far as it goes in Sun Valley, if you take I-5, the "Los Angeles" control will take you to 110.  At the 5/110 the southbound control on I-5 is Santa Ana, and I don't believe there is any helpful signage to take you into Downtown via the mini-bypass to the I-10 Santa Monica Fwy.  Trucks are forbidden on 110, but again no helpful signage to get to Downtown from that point, maybe trucks just take North Broadway?   IF you take 170, you don't get the "Los Angeles" control at the split, but you do at every other point until you hit the 4-level.  There is little guidance as far as whether one should take 101 or 110 for specific points within Downtown.  110 guides you towards San Pedro.  And Caltrans is getting rid of the old control cities of Santa Ana and San Bernardino for 101 (some old signs still remain) and just say 101 south to 10/60/5.

Now whether one is going to Downtown/Bunker Hill or Civic Center/City Hall, there still is no preferred choice at the 5/170.  5 will take you to 110 (following "Los Angeles") and then your decision point is to either exit at Hill or stay on 110 to 4th/6th/9th.  170 will take you to 101 (following "Los Angeles") and then I guess you can go with your gut to take 110 to 4th/6th/9th or 101 to Grand/Broadway/L.A./Alameda.  I believe as far as Caltrans is concerned, if they guide you to the 4-level their job is done.

This is why I like having L.A. on both 5 and 170, since there really is no preference since both routes adequately get you to the 4-level.  5 is generally faster than 101 between Sun Valley and the 110, but the 110 itself could easily add back all the time that you saved taking the 5.  Truckers are the only ones who really have a clear winner, they need to take 170 if they want a direct all freeway route to either Bunker Hill or City Hall - yet the signs encourage them to take I-5 instead.   

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A quick word on SF.  There, Caltrans seems to follow the approach of most other states to sign "Downtown" once you are already within city limits.  I like your suggestion of 101 CIvic Center/Bay Bridge and 280 Mission Bay/Fisherman's Wharf.  As 280 provides a direct link to King Street and thence Embarcardero, it probably is the easiest way to get from San Mateo County towards the parts of Downtown near the Bay.  Another possible control to be used instead of either Mission Bay or Fisherman's Wharf is Financial District since a good part of the Financial District is just off Embarcardero

[mrsman]

As my last post was specific to CA, I wanted to post separately on a more general point, that often times when there are two routes that go the same place, we are talking about a situation where one is a direct route and one is a bypass.  Very often the far away control city is routed on the bypass, even though both routes will go to the place, and even though the non-bypass will usually be less mileage.  Many examples of this, and it is done to encourage the long distance traffic to use the bypass, even though there is more mileage.  Likely, at busy times, it will save time to take the bypass.

One example (of many):  95/495 in Wilmington DE.  the control for 95 is Wilimington.  the control for 495 is Baltimore (SB) and Philadelphia (NB).  Of course taking 95 is more direct for either Philadelphia or Baltimore, but DE wants people to take 495 as it has more lanes and less traffic.

Counterexample: 101/CA-85 in San Jose area.  Probably since 101 is so much older, the long distance controls of SF and LA are  along 101 alone.  CA-85 tends to use only local controls like Mountain View and Gilroy.  CA-85 is an effective bypass of San Jose and can be used as part of long distance LA-SF trips, but the long distance traffic isn't encouraged to take it.  This is the only example I can think of at the moment that does this.

[PHLBOS]

One example (of many):  95/495 in Wilmington DE.  the control for 95 is Wilimington.  the control for 495 is Baltimore (SB) and Philadelphia (NB).  Of course taking 95 is more direct for either Philadelphia or Baltimore, but DE wants people to take 495 as it has more lanes and less traffic.

As well as a higher posted speed limit.  Most of I-495 is posted at 65 whereas I-95 through Wilmington and north is posted at 55.

[roadman65]

In Florida we have Apopka on US 441 at FL 414 saying to use FL 414 W Bound and then either exit at Keene Road or exit at FL 451 to US 441 South (the opposite way you are going if heading NB already on US 441 or again a loop back if you are seeing this assembly going there SB on US 441).  Most people think it to sucker the motorists into paying toll on FL 414, which is another toll road in the Sunshine State, but its faster to use 441 into Apopka from that exchange.

US 11 & 15 in Enola, PA has you enter I-81 to go to Harrisburg when in fact staying on US 11 and 15 to the bridge at Wormleysburg is faster and most direct.

I-81 at PA 581 shows Harrisburg to stay on I-81 North instead of using PA 581 which is the route that goes directly into Harrisburg from that location.

[TheStranger]

I don't think many people distinguish between Downtown and the Civic Center, so making that a big distinction on the signs isn't helpful.

I feel like 110 being super congested in the downtown segment makes it more important to distinguish which part of downtown is being referred to - i.e. one trying to reach say Pershing Square or City Hall vs. one going to a Lakers or Kings game at Staples.  But I get what you're saying here too.  There is plenty of precedent for individual districts in LA to be control cities (Echo Park, Hollywood, San Pedro).

A quick word on SF.  There, Caltrans seems to follow the approach of most other states to sign "Downtown" once you are already within city limits.  I like your suggestion of 101 CIvic Center/Bay Bridge and 280 Mission Bay/Fisherman's Wharf.  As 280 provides a direct link to King Street and thence Embarcardero, it probably is the easiest way to get from San Mateo County towards the parts of Downtown near the Bay.  Another possible control to be used instead of either Mission Bay or Fisherman's Wharf is Financial District since a good part of the Financial District is just off Embarcardero

I-80 gets much closer to Salesforce Tower and the Financial District than 280 does though, plus taking the King Street/Embarcadero route to get to Embarcadero Center requires potentially driving through the congestion inherent to Giants game days at the ballpark.

Having said that, I actually prefer doing US 101 to I-80 to 4th Street exit (to 3rd Street) to get to North Beach even though North Beach is one of the tourist districts that signs suggest using I-280 for.

Counterexample: 101/CA-85 in San Jose area.  Probably since 101 is so much older, the long distance controls of SF and LA are  along 101 alone.  CA-85 tends to use only local controls like Mountain View and Gilroy.  CA-85 is an effective bypass of San Jose and can be used as part of long distance LA-SF trips, but the long distance traffic isn't encouraged to take it.  This is the only example I can think of at the moment that does this.

There is a restriction for trucks above a certain weight threshold on Route 85 south of I-280 so I think that is why 85 has never been signed for the 101 distant controls of SF or LA.

Plus 101 itself already bypasses downtown San Jose (with 87 being a spur into that neighborhood)

[briantroutman]

US 11 & 15 in Enola, PA has you enter I-81 to go to Harrisburg when in fact staying on US 11 and 15 to the bridge at Wormleysburg is faster and most direct.

Having lived in Harrisburg, I have to disagree on this one. No matter where you're headed in the city, US 11-15 is neither faster nor more direct. I-81 is the better choice all around unless there's some unusually heavy traffic on I-81.

And running a few quick scenarios on Google Maps bears this out. Even in its most competitive scenario–from the I-81/US 11-15 interchange to the intersection of Front and Forster Streets in Harrisburg–the US 11-15 route is longer (6.1 miles and 11 minutes via US 11-15 vs. 5.2 miles and 8 min. via I-81 and Front Street). If you're headed to a destination north or east of the Capitol Complex, US 11-15 is at even more of a disadvantage.

I-81 at PA 581 shows Harrisburg to stay on I-81 North instead of using PA 581 which is the route that goes directly into Harrisburg from that location.

This scenario is less clear cut than the one above, as there are some destinations within Harrisburg for which PA 581 is both the shorter and faster option. To the center of the Capitol Complex, for instance, they're about equal, with both options taking about 15 minutes in light traffic and PA 581 having a slight edge in terms of distance (10.4 miles vs. 10.9). But again, for destinations that are generally north and east of the Capitol Complex–including the State Museum, Farm Show Complex, and National Civil War Museum–I-81 is generally a better choice. Then too, advising out-of-the-area motorists to use I-81 instead of PA 581 also helps to reduce volumes on the underbuilt and overcapacity section of I-83 passing through the city.

[jeffandnicole]

As my last post was specific to CA, I wanted to post separately on a more general point, that often times when there are two routes that go the same place, we are talking about a situation where one is a direct route and one is a bypass.  Very often the far away control city is routed on the bypass, even though both routes will go to the place, and even though the non-bypass will usually be less mileage.  Many examples of this, and it is done to encourage the long distance traffic to use the bypass, even though there is more mileage.  Likely, at busy times, it will save time to take the bypass.

One example (of many):  95/495 in Wilmington DE.  the control for 95 is Wilimington.  the control for 495 is Baltimore (SB) and Philadelphia (NB).  Of course taking 95 is more direct for either Philadelphia or Baltimore, but DE wants people to take 495 as it has more lanes and less traffic.

As well as a higher posted speed limit.  Most of I-495 is posted at 65 whereas I-95 through Wilmington and north is posted at 55.

Sounds like the entire purpose of a *bypass* route.  Otherwise, relating back to this thread, the control city on the sign going thru the town would be the slower route!

On highways, we probably don't see it signed that way too often because of the relative lack of cities very close to each other that are bypassed in the first place.  This will be more frequently found in states with towns/small cities that are otherwise in the middle of nowhere, commonly utilizing US routes as their main route thru town, where a bypass route would go around the city.

BTW, going back to the 95/495 example, 495 is longer, but just 0.4 miles longer.