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Non-Road Boards => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Pink Jazz on February 10, 2019, 10:29:02 AM

Title: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: Pink Jazz on February 10, 2019, 10:29:02 AM

While veal parmigiana has always been in the shadow of its more popular cousins eggplant parmigiana and chicken parmigiana, it seems like in recent years more and more restaurants (especially chain Italian restaurants) are removing it from their menu.  I am pretty sure that these restaurants don't sell as much veal parmigiana as they do chicken or eggplant parmigiana, plus the high cost of veal is likely an issue.  Also, I wonder if these restaurants want to avoid any animal cruelty issues by removing veal from the menu.


Has anyone else noticed a similar trend?
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: abefroman329 on February 10, 2019, 10:44:18 AM
I haven't noticed that, no. It's also an expensive dish, so maybe it's not worth it for the restaurant to keep it on hand if no one is going to order it.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: SectorZ on February 10, 2019, 12:14:48 PM
I hope eggplant does first. Veggies masquerading as meat (long before veganism and vegeterianism was a thing) is bad.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: formulanone on February 10, 2019, 01:48:13 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on February 10, 2019, 10:29:02 AMAlso, I wonder if these restaurants want to avoid any animal cruelty issues by removing veal from the menu.

Let me first say that people are free to eat whatever they like, and so as long as you're not eating humans, my pets, or something on an endangered species list (and has a valid reason to be there), then I don't care, so as long as one keeps their beliefs to themselves. There's totally valid reasons why someone chooses a diet the way they do, and there's justification for emotional/religious reasons that I can also understand, even if I choose not to follow.

But this idea of "cruelty"; where do people think most male chickens or pigs wind up? Most veal winds up this way; there's only so many male cattle needed to increase the heard and most female cattle provide dairy products. The male calves generally wind up as veal. What else is supposed to happen to them? Sure, you're free to keep them as pets (check with local laws first) but that's how it goes.

Veal parmigiana is quite tasty. I like chicken parm, but it's hard to cut it quite the same way as veal. I wonder if it also doesn't "hold up" the same way when frozen and then prepped and readied for the typical restaurant.

Using something like Olive Garden as the template, due to its ubiquity, they also change up their menu as the years go on. I used to like their sausage and peppers meal, because it was filling and usually cost a bit less than most other meals. (Plus it had garlic and red onions.) It rarely makes an appearance any more. Same with their osso bucco (lamb) and a few others. They change things around, but the popular or derivative stuff stays and others are on a trial basis. It could just be that their inflated pricing model pushed out the veal where people feel a little weird about spending $22 for a dish they can get in thousands of other places. For that matter, I usually prefer the local Italian restaurant, there's more variation, it usually is less expensive, and you're patronizing the local owners.

Quote from: SectorZ on February 10, 2019, 12:14:48 PM
I hope eggplant does first. Veggies masquerading as meat (long before veganism and vegeterianism was a thing) is bad.

Eggplant is just vile to look at, and has seemingly no flavor. There's so many other veggie and grain options for meat-like food that I'm puzzled how it still exists. But you know, some folks must like it.

Some of the meatless options aren't half bad; there's some rare times I'm just not in the mood for meat, and that fills a need. But I don't expect nor demand it as an option; I can patronize restaurants who cater to that desire.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: hbelkins on February 10, 2019, 05:05:53 PM
Chicken parm, it tastes so good.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: 64CatalinaVentura on February 10, 2019, 05:40:34 PM
I love chicken parm, but not eggplant or veal. I have noticed that veal in general seems to be on the way out.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: Pink Jazz on February 10, 2019, 05:55:25 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on February 10, 2019, 12:14:48 PM
I hope eggplant does first. Veggies masquerading as meat (long before veganism and vegeterianism was a thing) is bad.



Eggplant parmigiana is actually the original Italian recipe while chicken and veal parmigiana are Italian-American creations.  While I do prefer chicken parmigiana over eggplant (haven't really had veal parmigiana), eggplant parmigiana actually came first and is the only version that really exists in Italy outside the touristy areas.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: US 89 on February 10, 2019, 06:00:01 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 10, 2019, 05:05:53 PM
Chicken parm, it tastes so good.

Nationwide is on your side!
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: SectorZ on February 10, 2019, 06:39:55 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on February 10, 2019, 05:55:25 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on February 10, 2019, 12:14:48 PM
I hope eggplant does first. Veggies masquerading as meat (long before veganism and vegeterianism was a thing) is bad.



Eggplant parmigiana is actually the original Italian recipe while chicken and veal parmigiana are Italian-American creations.  While I do prefer chicken parmigiana over eggplant (haven't really had veal parmigiana), eggplant parmigiana actually came first and is the only version that really exists in Italy outside the touristy areas.

The first idea isn't always the best one.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: english si on February 10, 2019, 06:58:12 PM
Veal crates were banned in the UK in 1990, and the meat itself was widely frowned up before that by us Brits. I only saw it on trips abroad growing up.

But then, in the '00s, they came up with 'rosé veal' - male dairy cows fattened quickly and killed young (but more like 8 months, not 8 minutes), but treated better than they were elsewhere at the time (it took until 2007 for the EU to ban veal crates, and they still have low welfare standards - which is why you can't easily buy fresh meat in the UK that isn't British or Irish, other than stuff like New Zealand lamb - market pressures don't allow it). For instance they get a lot more roughage and iron (which makes the meat 'rosé' rather than pale) in their diet than traditional veal, they get more space and even get bedding. The RSPCA has, several times, come out and said "this stuff is good, and if you don't eat it they'll just shoot newborn bulls", however 'veal' is still not common on British menus - like horse we are a bit squeamish about the idea of it, and so a lot of this rose veal is sold in the UK as beef. I've seen it in places as 'veal' or 'rose veal', normally high end restaurants.


As for parmigiana, out of 6 (one now defunct) chains of Italian restaurants here I looked at, only Jamie's Italian (the overpriced, failing, restaurant of the turkey twizzler thief) does it - and then only eggplant. The Italian-American chain, Frankie & Benny's, does a Chicken, and now a Vegan 'Chicken', Parm. Beyond that, it's go to non-chain restaurants, or make it yourself.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: GaryV on February 10, 2019, 07:08:57 PM
I had the chicken parm last night.  I liked the veal parm that I had a couple months ago much better.  Best thing is they gave enough spaghetti with it that there was plenty of leftovers for lunch today.  (I wouldn't have tried eggplant parm if it had been on the menu.)

Now since it was in a local restaurant run by an Albanian family, maybe it's not a fair test.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: corco on February 11, 2019, 09:43:26 AM
http://www.city-data.com/forum/food-drink/3015304-veal-parmigiana-its-way-out.html
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: hbelkins on February 11, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
I'm not an eggplant fan by any stretch, but it seems to be popular as a meat substitute. My dad was really fond of a mock oyster casserole made with eggplant. He liked oysters, but found the mock oyster dishes to be acceptable substitutes.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: abefroman329 on February 11, 2019, 10:25:57 AM
Eggplant is probably my least favorite meat substitute.  I like quinoa as a substitute for ground beef or turkey.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: abefroman329 on February 11, 2019, 10:26:48 AM
Quote from: corco on February 11, 2019, 09:43:26 AM
http://www.city-data.com/forum/food-drink/3015304-veal-parmigiana-its-way-out.html
I think the first response nails it - I like veal parm, but not enough to pay $30-40 for it.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: jp the roadgeek on February 11, 2019, 11:00:49 AM
Not many places offer veal as an option anymore.  I don't dine out often, but I do buy many prepared meals at a local store.  They have chicken and eggplant parm, but no veal parm.  When I was in high school, we had a few animal rights activists do the whole presentation about how calves are treated inhumanely when being raised for veal (this sentiment, and its high cost are what make veal so scarce now), and that veal should no longer be served in the dining hall.  In response, we had one guy go around campus putting up signs all over saying "Veal's My Meal!!"  I also had chicken parm for dinner last night, so the timing of this thread is perfect.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: RobbieL2415 on February 11, 2019, 11:53:26 AM
Olive Garden ruined Italian food forever.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: kevinb1994 on February 11, 2019, 12:00:08 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 11, 2019, 11:53:26 AM
Olive Garden ruined Italian food forever.

That's what she said.  :bigass:
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: abefroman329 on February 11, 2019, 12:04:45 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 11, 2019, 11:53:26 AM
Olive Garden ruined Italian food forever.
No more than Taco Bell ruined Mexican food forever.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: Rothman on February 11, 2019, 01:20:55 PM
The crowds at the Olive Garden here are very disheartening, especially since there are a few decent Italian places for essentially just a smidge more in the area.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: abefroman329 on February 11, 2019, 01:28:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 11, 2019, 01:20:55 PM
The crowds at the Olive Garden here are very disheartening, especially since there are a few decent Italian places for essentially just a smidge more in the area.
It's a popular choice here too, but what I can I say?  Sometimes I'm in the mood for authentic Italian, and sometimes I just want a damn Build Your Own Pasta Bowl.  Every now and then I used to order from Domino's or Pizza Hut when I lived in NYC, because sometimes I was in the mood for pizza from there.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: kphoger on February 11, 2019, 02:56:21 PM
I haven't seen it on a menu in years.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: Pink Jazz on February 11, 2019, 06:31:25 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 11, 2019, 11:53:26 AM
Olive Garden ruined Italian food forever.

Veal parmigiana doesn't really exist in Italy; eggplant parmigiana is the traditional recipe while both veal and chicken parmigiana are Italian-American creations, although there are veal dishes that are somewhat related though not identical.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: wriddle082 on February 11, 2019, 07:16:36 PM
I've really only had eggplant like 4 or 5 times in my life, mainly when cooked by a family member or friend, because most of my family doesn't care for it (especially my wife who hates a lot of foods due solely to texture), but I'm cool with eggplant.  It's not my first choice at an Italian restaurant because I almost always go for a beef or seafood dish first, but if one day a doctor tells me to cut back on the beef, I will probably take up eating eggplant on a regular basis.  Beats the heck out of tofu!

As for the topic at hand, veal is definitely something I could live without if it just up and disappears from all menus and meat distributors for whatever reason or combination of reasons previously mentioned.  To me, either eggplant or a very tender chicken would be very acceptable substitutes.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: sparker on February 14, 2019, 06:55:47 PM
It seems that around here, veal dishes are the parvenu of independent higher-end Italian restaurants; the last multi-outlet chain that had it on the menu was Florentine, with outlets in Mountain View, Cupertino, and Santa Clara -- but they went out of business about six years ago.  But most of the veal dishes in the remaining places are scallopine or osso buco; parmesan fell out of favor some time back with area patrons avoiding heavily breaded meats.  Besides, scallopine lends itself to relatively small servings, so the actual amount of veal utilized can be minimized.  I'm making a note to myself to inquire whether the "red veal" mentioned upthread is being subbed for traditional veal in any of the restaurants I patronize.  But I have noticed that some restaurants, particularly in S.F., are now using lamb shanks rather than veal in the osso buco (normally my personal fave; but my propensity to develop gout has led me to avoid high-in-purines lamb).  My GF was a veal parm fanatic, though -- but has learned, if a bit grudgingly, to appreciate the remaining veal dishes.  But at home, chicken-breast scallopine is one of our regular "special" dishes.   
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: abefroman329 on February 14, 2019, 08:21:10 PM
We ordered dinner from a pizzeria on Monday night and the special was veal parm, so.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: J N Winkler on February 14, 2019, 09:29:51 PM
I don't understand all the trash talk about eggplant upthread.  I fix ratatouille quite often, to a recipe with onion, eggplant, zucchini, bell pepper, and garlic--it's absolutely fantastic with a gently poached egg on top.  I also like eggplant parmigiana, but tend to regard it as a vice food because of all the cheese.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: abefroman329 on February 14, 2019, 10:13:16 PM
There's nothing wrong with it necessarily, I just don't like it. Carnivores can be just as insufferable as vegetarians and vegans.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: kphoger on February 15, 2019, 01:09:14 PM
I like eggplant OK, but I certainly understand people who don't.  It's a bit bitter, and it turns to mush easily.  It takes both a high-quality eggplant and a good cook for it to turn out good enough for most people to like, I think.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: sparker on February 15, 2019, 04:39:48 PM
Eggplant seems to be particularly suited for wok-cooked Asian dishes, where pieces are added to the dish mixture near the end so it won't end up overcooked and mushy.  The Panda Express chain has had an eggplant dish since its inception -- but if a customer is interested in ordering the dish, it's best to wait until a fresh batch is brought in from the kitchen; if the stuff sits in the serving trays too long it does tend to get mushy if left more than 10-15 minutes. 
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: abefroman329 on February 15, 2019, 05:21:09 PM
Panda Express is delicious and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise.  Sometimes I just don't give a fuck about authenticity.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: US71 on February 15, 2019, 10:24:53 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2019, 01:09:14 PM
I like eggplant OK, but I certainly understand people who don't.  It's a bit bitter, and it turns to mush easily.  It takes both a high-quality eggplant and a good cook for it to turn out good enough for most people to like, I think.

Vegetables are what food eats ;)
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: sparker on February 16, 2019, 01:21:24 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 15, 2019, 05:21:09 PM
Panda Express is delicious and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise.  Sometimes I just don't give a fuck about authenticity.

I consider Panda to be "quasi-Chinese" (and, according to the blurbs posted in their restaurants, they'd probably agree with me!).  Nevertheless, they do have a few consistently good dishes: their kung pao chicken is pretty good (hint: ask for extra hot peppers, then shred those into the dish -- otherwise it's a bit bland), as is their black-pepper chicken.  Decent chow mein as well, if a bit salty.  But IMO the sweet dishes are way too sweet -- orange chicken, the "sweet-fire" chicken breast, and the teriyaki sauce they serve with the chicken chunks (get it on the side).  But that's probably what made them a success in the marketplace -- catering to America's consistent sweet tooth.  Sleeper on the menu: their hot & sour soup (unfortunately, not all outlets carry it); great on a cold evening (like we've been having out here for the last few weeks).   
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: US71 on February 16, 2019, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 11, 2019, 11:53:26 AM
Olive Garden ruined Italian food forever.

How do you feel about the McDonald's of Italian Food, Fazolis?  We have a couple decent Italian places here, so it's been a long time since I've been to Olive Garden
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: RobbieL2415 on February 16, 2019, 11:44:30 AM
Quote from: US71 on February 16, 2019, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 11, 2019, 11:53:26 AM
Olive Garden ruined Italian food forever.

How do you feel about the McDonald's of Italian Food, Fazolis?  We have a couple decent Italian places here, so it's been a long time since I've been to Olive Garden
McDonald's makes no effort to mask its true identity, especially after Super Size Me came out.  OG tries to make everyone think it's actually top-notch. Italian food is very easy to fabricate.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: formulanone on February 16, 2019, 11:56:59 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 16, 2019, 11:44:30 AM
Quote from: US71 on February 16, 2019, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 11, 2019, 11:53:26 AM
Olive Garden ruined Italian food forever.

How do you feel about the McDonald's of Italian Food, Fazolis?  We have a couple decent Italian places here, so it's been a long time since I've been to Olive Garden
McDonald's makes no effort to mask its true identity, especially after Super Size Me came out.  OG tries to make everyone think it's actually top-notch. Italian food is very easy to fabricate.

There's a good reason brands usually don't try to play themselves down. You don't go to a job interview and tell the interviewer all your weaknesses, how you look for ways to shirk responsibility, plan on ratting out co-workers to get ahead, and typically count down the minutes until you can race out the door.

There's also some cities with no Italian restaurants, so the Olive Garden might be your only choice if you're hankering for a fettuccine alfredo with a mixed salad, and you don't feel like making it at home. The commercialization and growth of these restaurants is a nuisance for some locales, presents opportunities for others, and provides familiarity to those a bit indifferent. I'd rather not visit them on the road, but sometimes as a big group or the family is undecided, we wind up at one at least twice a year.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: J N Winkler on February 16, 2019, 12:11:22 PM
Olive Garden does very well even in markets (such as my local one) that have well-regarded authentic Italian restaurants.  Partly this is because the ad libitum salad appeals to health- and value-conscious customers who don't register that the mesclun is mostly coarsely shredded iceberg lettuce, with little to no nutritional content.

As for eggplant, the comments regarding bitterness and mushiness are interesting.  The bitterness goes away with cooking and is basically not noticeable with the addition of other ingredients like onions and garlic.  Eggplant is not supposed to be al dente in ratatouille anyway--its main purpose is to add smoky flavor--and when it is chopped into cubes a quarter-inch (or less) on a side and left to soak up olive oil for fifteen minutes, its texture is less noticeable as a part of the total mix than that of ingredients such as bell peppers and zucchini that go in later.

Years ago, when I found myself in Vienna for close to a month, I ate out frequently at a chain restaurant called Maschu Maschu (http://www.maschu-maschu.at/).  It specializes in Israeli cuisine, which means many of the dishes are recognizably Middle Eastern (shawarma, falafel, etc.) with elements of acidity, bitterness, and (light) sweetness added by relishes.  Their Melanzanisalat (eggplant relish) goes well with hummus-based dishes, but does leave you feeling you have to get through the virtue food before you get to the good stuff.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: hbelkins on February 16, 2019, 03:08:33 PM
I'm not a fan of Italian food because I don't like garlic. That being said, I'm surprised at how popular Olive Garden seems to be, even in bigger places that have more authentic and non-chain Italian places.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: abefroman329 on February 16, 2019, 03:39:40 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 16, 2019, 03:08:33 PM
I'm not a fan of Italian food because I don't like garlic. That being said, I'm surprised at how popular Olive Garden seems to be, even in bigger places that have more authentic and non-chain Italian places.
Chains thrive because people like to know exactly what they're going to get. I'd think someone with your palate would be able to grasp that concept.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: tribar on February 16, 2019, 06:02:53 PM
Quote from: formulanone on February 16, 2019, 11:56:59 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 16, 2019, 11:44:30 AM
Quote from: US71 on February 16, 2019, 11:17:21 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 11, 2019, 11:53:26 AM
Olive Garden ruined Italian food forever.

How do you feel about the McDonald's of Italian Food, Fazolis?  We have a couple decent Italian places here, so it's been a long time since I've been to Olive Garden
McDonald's makes no effort to mask its true identity, especially after Super Size Me came out.  OG tries to make everyone think it's actually top-notch. Italian food is very easy to fabricate.

There's a good reason brands usually don't try to play themselves down. You don't go to a job interview and tell the interviewer all your weaknesses, how you look for ways to shirk responsibility, plan on ratting out co-workers to get ahead, and typically count down the minutes until you can race out the door.

There's also some cities with no Italian restaurants, so the Olive Garden might be your only choice if you're hankering for a fettuccine alfredo with a mixed salad, and you don't feel like making it at home. The commercialization and growth of these restaurants is a nuisance for some locales, presents opportunities for others, and provides familiarity to those a bit indifferent. I'd rather not visit them on the road, but sometimes as a big group or the family is undecided, we wind up at one at least twice a year.

Fettuccine Alfredo is not an Italian dish.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: US71 on February 16, 2019, 06:20:24 PM
Quote from: tribar on February 16, 2019, 06:02:53 PM


Fettuccine Alfredo is not an Italian dish.

So why do so many Italian places serve it?  :hmmm: :hmmm:
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: J N Winkler on February 16, 2019, 07:46:55 PM
Quote from: US71 on February 16, 2019, 06:20:24 PM
Quote from: tribar on February 16, 2019, 06:02:53 PMFettuccine Alfredo is not an Italian dish.

So why do so many Italian places serve it?  :hmmm: :hmmm:

Simple--the same reason you find chicken tikka masala at an Indian restaurant rather than Harry Ramsden's.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: Big John on February 16, 2019, 07:54:24 PM
Quote from: tribar on February 16, 2019, 06:02:53 PM
Fettuccine Alfredo is not an Italian dish.
It was first served in Italy before coming to the United States.  http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/fall10/hoppner_v/history.html
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: US71 on February 16, 2019, 08:05:39 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 16, 2019, 07:46:55 PM
Quote from: US71 on February 16, 2019, 06:20:24 PM
Quote from: tribar on February 16, 2019, 06:02:53 PMFettuccine Alfredo is not an Italian dish.

So why do so many Italian places serve it?  :hmmm: :hmmm:

Simple--the same reason you find chicken tikka masala at an Indian restaurant rather than Harry Ramsden's.

Who?
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: J N Winkler on February 16, 2019, 08:51:07 PM
Harry Ramsden's is a British chain of fish-and-chips shops, so the name is metonymy for fish and chips (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_and_chips) in general, which is a stereotypically British dish.  Chicken tikka masala (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tikka_masala) is every bit as British but nobody ever looks for it other than in Indian restaurants.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: english si on February 17, 2019, 05:01:48 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 16, 2019, 03:08:33 PMI'm not a fan of Italian food because I don't like garlic.
Go to Italy - you'll find loads of food without it. Its throughout American 'Italian' food (and British 'Italian' food) because that's what we expect (perhaps due to our irrational idea that French cuisine is good food, and thus swimming in garlic is the aim. French food is fine, but French cuisine is about showing off chef skills and making bad ingredients palatable). I can't speak for America, but Britain has, in the last 15-20 years, gained a lot of proper Italian restaurants (ditto Indian, some of which embrace the fact they are Bangladeshi).

As for garlic, unless they overdo it, you shouldn't be able to notice it in most dishes - its meant to be a background note. My Grandad would run a mile from garlic, but when I visit them he either has chilli or lasagne in the down-market pub restaurant and eats it all (save garlic bread) despite them having quite a bit of garlic in them - perhaps ignorance is bliss? The chili especially was odd, as they seemed to put in a regular amount of garlic, then massively reduce the other spices/herbs compared to normal as they knew their clientele ordering these things want a 70s throwback and thus don't want more than a hint of spice (that's changed, but Grandad had settled on the lasagne every time before that happened).
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 16, 2019, 08:51:07 PMHarry Ramsden's is a British chain of fish-and-chips shops, so the name is metonymy for fish and chips (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_and_chips) in general
Is it a decent substitution? I was in my late teens before I'd ever heard of them as I wasn't in the right part of England, and wouldn't have got the reference. And I'm at least in the right country.

Plus Harry does offer a Sri Lankan Fish Curry (http://harryramsdens.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/BOUR_MAIN_WM_HR.pdf), and (IIRC, it took some time when the chain branched into South Wales for HQ to realise they needed this) Curry Sauce - so it wouldn't be a surprise if it did appear on the menu (though certainly a bit odd).
QuoteChicken tikka masala is every bit as British but nobody ever looks for it other than in Indian restaurants.
Err - it tends to appear on "classics" sections of chain pub restaurants menus: Brewers Fayre (https://www.brewersfayre.co.uk/pub-restaurant-menus/Yorkshire/Rhubarb-Triangle-Newton-Hill.html) (enjoy the 'American' food at the top, and just be aware this is how an Italian sees 'Italian' food in the US - bad stereotypes), Wetherspoons (https://www.theprintworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Food-Menu.pdf). Marstons (https://www.canterburybellpubthanet.co.uk/menus/main-menu-dn18/#menu-item-52434) puts it on "Flavours of the World", but I'd argue that that is to anchor that section of the menu, which only has four things and it, and the veggie equivalent, are two of them (though quite why they couldn't have the Makhani and Tagine elsewhere?). It's readily available in supermarkets (https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/shop/fresh-food/ready-meals/indian-ready-meals) (unlike, say, Chicken Dansak, or others beyond the ~5 dishes stores do as ready meals), including as microwavable meals for toddlers.

But yes, we see it as 'Indian', normally with the air quotes.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: J N Winkler on February 17, 2019, 11:55:17 AM
Quote from: english si on February 17, 2019, 05:01:48 AMAs for garlic, unless they overdo it, you shouldn't be able to notice it in most dishes - its meant to be a background note. My Grandad would run a mile from garlic, but when I visit them he either has chilli or lasagne in the down-market pub restaurant and eats it all (save garlic bread) despite them having quite a bit of garlic in them - perhaps ignorance is bliss? The chili especially was odd, as they seemed to put in a regular amount of garlic, then massively reduce the other spices/herbs compared to normal as they knew their clientele ordering these things want a 70s throwback and thus don't want more than a hint of spice (that's changed, but Grandad had settled on the lasagne every time before that happened).

My experience with actual garlic has been that it has to be either very copious, or very raw, to leave the house with a characteristic trattoria smell or to leave you feeling like you are "eating your own breath" hours after dinner.  On the other hand, a very little garlic powder goes a long way, weaponizes your breath, and leaves an extraordinarily persistent aftertaste.  I suspect garlic powder is the flavoring agent in most garlic bread, which is one reason I tend to be very sparing about eating it.  Another is that bread, as a starchy food, interferes with weight management.

The dishes I fix regularly that are most likely to engender the trattoria smell are linguine puttanesca and broccoli pasta.  In both cases the garlic is cooked only a short time (pan-cooked in olive oil in the case of puttanesca, and briefly cooked in oil and then steamed for broccoli pasta).  About once a week I fix a bean soup that involves throwing in a handful of minced garlic at the very end of cooking, and it doesn't perfume the house because it cooks just enough over a one-hour cool-down period with the soup sitting on the stove with the hob turned off.

Many years ago, when I was young and foolish, I fairly often fixed a pasta dish that consisted of whole-wheat spaghetti and a sauce comprised of canned tuna, pesto, and minced garlic.  Only the pasta was cooked; the sauce was entirely raw and I mashed the ingredients together with a fork.  I could taste my breath for hours.  The following morning, I could put any random patch of my skin to my nose and smell garlic.  I was also told that I could be smelled from two floors away, and that the bathroom smelled of garlic after I used it, regardless of whether solids or fluids were involved.  (In mitigation, I plead that people often do odd things in graduate school, and this was hardly as extreme as not washing for thirty days, which a friend of mine tried.)

Raw garlic is a test to the stomach, so I don't think I would tolerate it as well as I did when I was younger.

Quote from: english si on February 17, 2019, 05:01:48 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 16, 2019, 08:51:07 PMHarry Ramsden's is a British chain of fish-and-chips shops, so the name is metonymy for fish and chips (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_and_chips) in general

Is it a decent substitution? I was in my late teens before I'd ever heard of them as I wasn't in the right part of England, and wouldn't have got the reference. And I'm at least in the right country.

Plus Harry does offer a Sri Lankan Fish Curry (http://harryramsdens.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/BOUR_MAIN_WM_HR.pdf), and (IIRC, it took some time when the chain branched into South Wales for HQ to realise they needed this) Curry Sauce - so it wouldn't be a surprise if it did appear on the menu (though certainly a bit odd).

Re. decent substitution--yes, it's a bit of a stretch.  Apparently it has 35 locations in the UK, while Britain had something like 35,000 fish-and-chips shops in the 1930's.  I think the only locations I have seen in person have been at airports (Heathrow has one) and motorway service areas (Forton, perhaps?).

Quote from: english si on February 17, 2019, 05:01:48 AM
QuoteChicken tikka masala is every bit as British but nobody ever looks for it other than in Indian restaurants.

Err - it tends to appear on "classics" sections of chain pub restaurants menus: Brewers Fayre (https://www.brewersfayre.co.uk/pub-restaurant-menus/Yorkshire/Rhubarb-Triangle-Newton-Hill.html) (enjoy the 'American' food at the top, and just be aware this is how an Italian sees 'Italian' food in the US - bad stereotypes), Wetherspoons (https://www.theprintworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Food-Menu.pdf). Marstons (https://www.canterburybellpubthanet.co.uk/menus/main-menu-dn18/#menu-item-52434) puts it on "Flavours of the World", but I'd argue that that is to anchor that section of the menu, which only has four things and it, and the veggie equivalent, are two of them (though quite why they couldn't have the Makhani and Tagine elsewhere?). It's readily available in supermarkets (https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/shop/fresh-food/ready-meals/indian-ready-meals) (unlike, say, Chicken Dansak, or others beyond the ~5 dishes stores do as ready meals), including as microwavable meals for toddlers.

But yes, we see it as 'Indian', normally with the air quotes.

Point taken re. pub and supermarket availability.  In general, there is something othering about how ethnic or ostensibly ethnic foods are marketed, not just in the UK but in the US.  For example, "Mexican" food in the US is all about tortillas, taco shells, refried beans, and compotes of meat and vegetables stewed or marinated in spicy sauces.  Actual food in Mexico--as in what is available when you go into a sit-down restaurant and order a meal--is not that different from "standard" fare in the US:  for example, you can order a steak with vegetables for dinner, or an omelette for breakfast, and the biggest difference is that both come with refried beans on the side.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: MNHighwayMan on February 18, 2019, 01:27:33 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 17, 2019, 11:55:17 AM
In general, there is something othering about how ethnic or ostensibly ethnic foods are marketed, not just in the UK but in the US.  For example, "Mexican" food in the US is all about tortillas, taco shells, refried beans, and compotes of meat and vegetables stewed or marinated in spicy sauces.  Actual food in Mexico--as in what is available when you go into a sit-down restaurant and order a meal--is not that different from "standard" fare in the US:  for example, you can order a steak with vegetables for dinner, or an omelette for breakfast, and the biggest difference is that both come with refried beans on the side.

Regarding the "othering" effect, that's going to be an intrinsic effect of how we enjoy ethnic food. For instance, I'm going to be disappointed if I ask for Mexican food for dinner and am greeted with steak and vegetables and a side of refried beans. Sure, people from Mexico without a doubt eat steak, but it's not really a specialty of that place.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: RobbieL2415 on February 18, 2019, 03:15:54 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on February 18, 2019, 01:27:33 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 17, 2019, 11:55:17 AM
In general, there is something othering about how ethnic or ostensibly ethnic foods are marketed, not just in the UK but in the US.  For example, "Mexican" food in the US is all about tortillas, taco shells, refried beans, and compotes of meat and vegetables stewed or marinated in spicy sauces.  Actual food in Mexico--as in what is available when you go into a sit-down restaurant and order a meal--is not that different from "standard" fare in the US:  for example, you can order a steak with vegetables for dinner, or an omelette for breakfast, and the biggest difference is that both come with refried beans on the side.

Regarding the "othering" effect, that's going to be an intrinsic effect of how we enjoy ethnic food. For instance, I'm going to be disappointed if I ask for Mexican food for dinner and am greeted with steak and vegetables and a side of refried beans. Sure, people from Mexico without a doubt eat steak, but it's not really a specialty of that place.
Wonder how they feel about Chipotle.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: NJRoadfan on February 18, 2019, 03:29:06 PM
Veal parm (along with veal marsala) is a staple dish at "red sauce" Italian restaurants in the NYC metro area and it isn't going away any time soon. When my aunt moved to NC, she had a hankering for veal and wanted to buy some to make for dinner. So she went to the butcher at the supermarket and they told her that they "don't club baby cows down here". Its also not commonly found in Italian restaurants in the area. I suspect the real reason is local demographics. People down there just aren't buying expensive veal like they do in Northern NJ.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: kphoger on February 19, 2019, 01:49:24 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 15, 2019, 05:21:09 PM
Panda Express is delicious and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise.  Sometimes I just don't give a fuck about authenticity.

Panda Express is bland and dried out.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: abefroman329 on February 19, 2019, 01:51:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 19, 2019, 01:49:24 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 15, 2019, 05:21:09 PM
Panda Express is delicious and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise.  Sometimes I just don't give a fuck about authenticity.

Panda Express is bland and dried out.
YOU'RE bland and dried out!
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 19, 2019, 02:00:39 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 19, 2019, 01:51:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 19, 2019, 01:49:24 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 15, 2019, 05:21:09 PM
Panda Express is delicious and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise.  Sometimes I just don't give a fuck about authenticity.

Panda Express is bland and dried out.
YOU'RE bland and dried out!

I want to like Panda Express.  I really do.  But some of their newer restaurants seem to suffer with some quality issues.  Using a few examples in Delaware, one gave a burnt taste in its food, and this was a few times, several weeks apart.  Another seemed to really skimp on portion sizes.

I can't speak for other areas of the country because we normally don't go searching for Chinese food on trips, but in the South Jersey area, strip-mall Chinese food outlets are about as common as Pizzerias and Wawas.  Don't like one, there's 5 more in town to try.  Panda Express has finally opened a few stores scattered about, and I think they'll really need to try hard in this area to succeed.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: kphoger on February 19, 2019, 02:13:41 PM
Re:  garlic

I cook with a lot of garlic because it's my favorite vegetable.   :awesomeface:

There's hardly ever a time I reach for the garlic and use fewer than three whole cloves.  For a dish that has "garlic" in the name, my wife and I might use up to ten cloves.  I hardly ever use it raw, however.  At the very least, I'll toast it in a dry skillet before peeling, which basically roasts it a bit in its own skin.  Once I had a Peruvian roommate who used to put raw garlic in the blender and drink it as a cure for the common cold;  I tried it and ended up on the kitchen floor in the fetal position.  I used to use even more, and I've noticed that I'm more likely to be bitten by mosquitoes now compared to then;  the scientists are agreed on the whole garlic-as-repellent thing, but I've personally noticed an effect.

If onions and garlic on your breath and in your pores turns women away, then those aren't the women for you!  My ex from years ago wouldn't kiss me if I had been eating raw onions;  my wife is a much better woman!




Quote from: J N Winkler on February 17, 2019, 11:55:17 AM
"Mexican" food in the US is all about tortillas, taco shells, refried beans, and compotes of meat and vegetables stewed or marinated in spicy sauces.  Actual food in Mexico--as in what is available when you go into a sit-down restaurant and order a meal--is not that different from "standard" fare in the US:  for example, you can order a steak with vegetables for dinner, or an omelette for breakfast, and the biggest difference is that both come with refried beans on the side.

Tortillas and refried beans:  that accounts for roughly 50% of what the people eat at home in the area of México I'm most familiar with–the remainder being eggs and a "special" dish here and there throughout the week.  The basic meal, which could be served two or three times a day with slight variations, consists of refried beans, scrambled eggs with something mixed in, salsa, and tortillas.  I believe rice is more common in the south than in the north, so that may end up replacing the eggs in other regions.  "Special" meals often end up being quite different from what we gringos think of as Mexican food–I've had spaghetti with poblano pepper sauce, fried fish, savory meat stew, and even hot dogs–but the staples tend be a lot closer to what we have here in the States.  Tacos, gorditas, tostadas:  these are all authentic Mexican dishes that combine the basics of tortillas, salsa, a tiny bit of meat, and some whatever-is-in-the-kitchen-at-the-time mixed in.

Quote from: MNHighwayMan on February 18, 2019, 01:27:33 AM
Regarding the "othering" effect, that's going to be an intrinsic effect of how we enjoy ethnic food. For instance, I'm going to be disappointed if I ask for Mexican food for dinner and am greeted with steak and vegetables and a side of refried beans. Sure, people from Mexico without a doubt eat steak, but it's not really a specialty of that place.

When I'm in México and offer to take people out to dinner, they ask me where.  When I answer that I'm taking them to a steakhouse, their eyes light up they get all excited.  Northern México loves steak, and restaurants that serve it are proud of it.  Some of the best steak I've ever had was in Coahuila.  The state of Chihuahua has historically been especially proud of its cattle and its beef.  Go to a backyard party in northern México, and chances are the people there will be grilling steaks and serving them with charred bulb onions and corn tortillas.  Basically, it is common, and it is a specialty.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: sparker on February 19, 2019, 05:21:23 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 19, 2019, 02:13:41 PM
Re:  garlic

I cook with a lot of garlic because it's my favorite vegetable.   :awesomeface:

There's hardly ever a time I reach for the garlic and use fewer than three whole cloves.  For a dish that has "garlic" in the name, my wife and I might use up to ten cloves.  I hardly ever use it raw, however.  At the very least, I'll toast it in a dry skillet before peeling, which basically roasts it a bit in its own skin.  Once I had a Peruvian roommate who used to put raw garlic in the blender and drink it as a cure for the common cold;  I tried it and ended up on the kitchen floor in the fetal position.  I used to use even more, and I've noticed that I'm more likely to be bitten by mosquitoes now compared to then;  the scientists are agreed on the whole garlic-as-repellent thing, but I've personally noticed an effect.

If onions and garlic on your breath and in your pores turns women away, then those aren't the women for you!  My ex from years ago wouldn't kiss me if I had been eating raw onions;  my wife is a much better woman!

The Chinese -- particularly those from the inland regions (Hunan, Szechuan, etc.) figured that one out long ago -- adding a roughly equal portion of fresh ginger to the garlic in dishes tends to somewhat neutralize -- or at least lessen -- the usual effects of garlic by itself.  I cook a lot of these dishes at home -- and many of them use a substantial amount of garlic -- but unless the dish has "......in garlic sauce" in the title, you can bet there's a similar amount of fresh ginger (definitely NOT the powdered stuff) called for in the dish, partially for the flavor but also to counteract "garlic effect".  Also, the combination creates a unique flavor profile -- if you've ever been to a authentic Szechuan or Hunan restaurant, you've undoubtedly tasted that combination! 
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: MNHighwayMan on February 19, 2019, 08:26:25 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 19, 2019, 02:13:41 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on February 18, 2019, 01:27:33 AM
Regarding the "othering" effect, that's going to be an intrinsic effect of how we enjoy ethnic food. For instance, I'm going to be disappointed if I ask for Mexican food for dinner and am greeted with steak and vegetables and a side of refried beans. Sure, people from Mexico without a doubt eat steak, but it's not really a specialty of that place.
When I'm in México and offer to take people out to dinner, they ask me where.  When I answer that I'm taking them to a steakhouse, their eyes light up they get all excited.  Northern México loves steak, and restaurants that serve it are proud of it.  Some of the best steak I've ever had was in Coahuila.  The state of Chihuahua has historically been especially proud of its cattle and its beef.  Go to a backyard party in northern México, and chances are the people there will be grilling steaks and serving them with charred bulb onions and corn tortillas.  Basically, it is common, and it is a specialty.

Perhaps I didn't pick the best example, but my point was that as an American, if I ask for Mexican food and get something substantially similar to something I can get at an average American restaurant, I'm going to be a little disappointed.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: Takumi on February 19, 2019, 10:43:39 PM
I quite like garlic, but can't stand onions.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: US71 on February 19, 2019, 10:45:41 PM
Quote from: Takumi on February 19, 2019, 10:43:39 PM
I quite like garlic, but can't stand onions.

I like a little onion on my hamburger, but that's it.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: abefroman329 on February 20, 2019, 09:32:39 AM
Quote from: Takumi on February 19, 2019, 10:43:39 PM
I quite like garlic, but can't stand onions.
I like cooked onions in many dishes, but I really only like raw onions on chili.  Raw onions don't sit especially well with me.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: hbelkins on February 20, 2019, 02:11:04 PM
I'm somewhat allergic to onions. In most cases, they will give me a headache. An exception is anytime I eat White Castles.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: kevinb1994 on February 20, 2019, 04:04:34 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 20, 2019, 02:11:04 PM
I'm somewhat allergic to onions. In most cases, they will give me a headache. An exception is anytime I eat White Castles.

Eating White Castles sounds like a royal pain!
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: SectorZ on February 20, 2019, 09:25:23 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 20, 2019, 02:11:04 PM
I'm somewhat allergic to onions. In most cases, they will give me a headache. An exception is anytime I eat White Castles.

Only White Castles?
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: US71 on February 20, 2019, 10:29:41 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 20, 2019, 02:11:04 PM
I'm somewhat allergic to onions. In most cases, they will give me a headache. An exception is anytime I eat White Castles.

What about Krystals?
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: abefroman329 on February 21, 2019, 08:57:37 AM
White Castle > Krystal.  Something about the Krystal bun being drier than the WC one just doesn't do it for me.
Title: Re: Is veal parmigiana on its way out?
Post by: hbelkins on February 21, 2019, 10:50:14 AM
Quote from: US71 on February 20, 2019, 10:29:41 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 20, 2019, 02:11:04 PM
I'm somewhat allergic to onions. In most cases, they will give me a headache. An exception is anytime I eat White Castles.

What about Krystals?

The onions are different, and they bother me more than do the ones on White Castles.