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ACCESS Oklahoma

Started by rte66man, February 22, 2022, 12:13:44 PM

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Bobby5280

Quote from: bugoI-369 in Texas currently connects with I-30 but not I-69. But yes, they're rare.

Considering the success the OTA has had in court, an "I-335" not connecting to I-35 looks like it would be a temporary situation. ACCESS Oklahoma is supposed to be a 15 year plan, but I would expect the East-West Connector between Norman and Moore to get built much sooner than later. The South extension down to I-35 near Purcell might be able to proceed quickly as well.

Quote from: swakeI would propose to renumber (as it is not signed) I-444 downtown as I-442 and free up I-444 for Lawton or the Creek Turnpike was well.

Yeah, I don't think the IDL in downtown Tulsa is worthy of keeping the I-444 designation especially since they never bothered to sign the route.

I don't like "I-444" for anything in Lawton since the 4xx number seems more major in status out of 3-digit routes. In the fantasy world of Lawton getting Rogers Lane upgraded to Interstate quality and getting a Southern bypass the two routes would probably carry odd numbers, even if the South bypass route ended at the US-62 route. If we followed the same example as NY state with I-90 the route numbers would go higher farther and farther West. That would give Lawton something like "I-944" and "I-744."

I think the Creek Turnpike in Tulsa would be perfect to claim ownership of I-444. The Kilpatrick Turnpike in OKC would have been a good place for a "I-444" label as well, but the more I think about it the more I like "I-440" for the North half of the Kilpatrick Turnpike. Let I-240 consume the recent Kilpatrick extension South of I-40 and Airport Road.


rte66man

https://www.newson6.com/story/64ff9c2ca5a32507237ca02c/bond-oversight-council-gives-ota-green-light-for-turnpike-expansion-plan

Quote
BOND OVERSIGHT COUNCIL GIVES OTA GREEN LIGHT FOR TURNPIKE EXPANSION PLAN

The bond money will fund access Oklahoma, a 15-year project that would include widening the Turner, Will Rogers and John Kilpatrick turnpikes as well as adding and enhancing access points on existing turnpikes.

The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority received approval to enter the bond market for its turnpike expansion plan. The decision came Monday at the State Capitol during a meeting with the council on bond oversight.

The approval allows the OTA to begin the process of selling $500 million dollars in bonds.

The bond money will fund access Oklahoma, a 15-year project that would include widening the Turner, Will Rogers and John Kilpatrick turnpikes as well as adding and enhancing access points on existing turnpikes. The bonds are the debt of the OTA and will be serviced through toll revenues.

The project was stalled earlier this year due to legal matters with the State Supreme Court, including a "validation" case and impeding state investigative audit. Those opposed to the State Supreme Court ruling and Monday's approval by the council were in attendance to voice their concerns.

"I find it crazy that the council for bond oversight would overlook such egregious financial problems and just common sense,"  said Amy Serato, President of Pike Off OTA. "Statute requirements say they have to have traffic and revenue studies done, they have to have environmental studies done before they get the bonds."

Tim Gatz, Oklahoma Secretary of Transportation, said there are several conditions the oversight council set in place including a petition for rehearing with the Supreme Court.

"They certainly identified that as a condition of the Turnpike Authority moving into the bond market and we will be absolutely 100% mindful of that and we will satisfy that requirement before we do and that is one of the variables that has to be resolved before we can move forward,"  Gatz said.

Gatz said he hopes to have those conditions resolved at the earliest, in October.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

triplemultiplex

Quote from: bugo on September 11, 2023, 12:30:47 PM
Here's a map from ODOT showing the new setup. I-240, I=344 and OK 152 will end at the same interchange, which is silly.



Well this is just ridiculous.  First of all, they have 240 randomly turning into 344 where OK 152 bails south.  I really hope that's just lazy cartography because someone has the Kilpatrick as a single shapefile object.  Obviously that should happen where the Kilpatrick hits I-40.
Second, I don't like odd first digit 3di's for belt/bypass facilities.  Yeah I know there is precedent out there, but when you're making a loop that connects interstates, evens are preferred, thank you.
And then, 335 for the Kickapoo?  Um, no.  Either it's never going to connect to I-35 despite OTA's ambition or if it does, then an even first digit is more appropriate for the reason I stated above.
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

The Ghostbuster

Instead of making the John Kilpatrick Turnpike Interstate 344 and Airport Road Interstate 240, maybe both could be given the Interstate 440 designation. After all, the 440 designation hasn't been used since it was renumbered to becoming part of 240 (and later Interstate 44) in 1975.

Scott5114

Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 13, 2023, 11:28:27 AM
Quote from: bugo on September 11, 2023, 12:30:47 PM
Here's a map from ODOT showing the new setup. I-240, I=344 and OK 152 will end at the same interchange, which is silly.



Well this is just ridiculous.  First of all, they have 240 randomly turning into 344 where OK 152 bails south.  I really hope that's just lazy cartography because someone has the Kilpatrick as a single shapefile object.  Obviously that should happen where the Kilpatrick hits I-40.

It makes more sense if you look at the actual interchanges. The through movement at the changeover point favors SH-152/future I-240.


(green line is Kilpatrick Turnpike/future I-344, blue line is SH-152/future I-240)

Meanwhile the I-40/Kilpatrick Turnpike interchange is a standard cloverleaf (yes, we're still building them because we hate ourselves), so it would be awfully artificial to have a designation change in the middle of it.



Quote
And then, 335 for the Kickapoo?  Um, no.  Either it's never going to connect to I-35 despite OTA's ambition or if it does, then an even first digit is more appropriate for the reason I stated above.

FIRST DIGIT 3 MEANS TOLL IN OKLAHOMA

please let us keep the only sort-of-rule our numbering system has (I'm willing to pretend SH-325 doesn't exist for the fantasy of having an honest-to-God numbering rule)
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Bobby5280

#480
Quote from: Scott5114Meanwhile the I-40/Kilpatrick Turnpike interchange is a standard cloverleaf (yes, we're still building them because we hate ourselves), so it would be awfully artificial to have a designation change in the middle of it.

There are other cloverleaf or stack interchanges where the thru lanes are numbered as one Interstate and turn into a different numbered Interstate on the other side of the interchange. There's I-280 and I-680 on either side of US-101 in San Jose.

It's more artificial to have two different Interstate routes end at a partial Y interchange with a state highway. It would be especially ridiculous to have I-240 extended a couple or so miles only to have it end at a traffic signal at SW 59th Street near Mustang. Why even extend I-240 at all? Just leave the highway numbered as SH-152. It's not like that freeway stump can ever be extended through the middle of Mustang and then back up to I-40 between Yukon and El Reno. I-240 should stay ended at I-44. The only way it should be extended West is if the I-240 designation meets I-40 in Yukon. Otherwise leave it alone.

Also, I would not be surprised if the AASHTO rejected the Interstate designation along the Kilpatrick Turnpike South of the I-40 interchange. They'll likely tell the OTA to sign that segment as a OK-3xx route instead (the OK-344 route is already taken by the Gilcrease Expressway).

The notion "3xx" means toll road doesn't really work either since much of I-44 in Oklahoma is a toll road. The Interstate highway system is a national-based system. Its numbering rules should not be superseded by a state tollway concept.

Scott5114

Meh. I don't really care about the first digit even/odd "rule" in the Interstate system because it's so open to interpretation it's not any more useful for telling you anything than the first digit in the US route system. If this I-335 gets extended to Purcell it will be no different than I-335 in Kansas (southern terminus at I-35, ends at another Interstate that isn't I-35).

At least starting with a 3 tells you something about the route if you're in Oklahoma (except the Panhandle).
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 13, 2023, 01:01:42 PM
FIRST DIGIT 3 MEANS TOLL IN OKLAHOMA

please let us keep the only sort-of-rule our numbering system has (I'm willing to pretend SH-325 doesn't exist for the fantasy of having an honest-to-God numbering rule)

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 13, 2023, 02:13:25 PM
At least starting with a 3 tells you something about the route if you're in Oklahoma (except the Panhandle).

As if anyone needed another reason to hate on Boise City...

Anyway, the obvious solution is to the exception would be to toll OK-325.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Plutonic Panda

Looks like we're know more in October hopefully about a new timeline and when things will really start moving forward:

https://www.newson6.com/story/64ff9c2ca5a32507237ca02c/bond-oversight-council-gives-ota-green-light-for-turnpike-expansion-plan

Scott5114

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2023, 02:23:45 PM
Anyway, the obvious solution is to the exception would be to toll OK-325.

They might even recoup the cost of the Pikepass readers before they need to be replaced!
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

rte66man

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 13, 2023, 06:31:10 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2023, 02:23:45 PM
Anyway, the obvious solution is to the exception would be to toll OK-325.

They might even recoup the cost of the Pikepass readers before they need to be replaced!

Heh.

The new tags start rolling out in November. I work for a company that reads the RFID tags in trucks to check them in and out of our plants. We have a quote for new readers ($4,000) and another quote for retrofitting older readers for the new standard ($1,000). Ours are not as powerful as the ones OTA uses so their costs are likely to be higher.

Makes me wonder whether KTA is using new readers for their cashless tolling project.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

triplemultiplex

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 13, 2023, 01:01:42 PM
It makes more sense if you look at the actual interchanges. The through movement at the changeover point favors SH-152/future I-240.

Bah, plenty of interstates exit off themselves.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 13, 2023, 01:01:42 PM
Meanwhile the I-40/Kilpatrick Turnpike interchange is a standard cloverleaf (yes, we're still building them because we hate ourselves), so it would be awfully artificial to have a designation change in the middle of it.

St. Louis and Twin Cities beltlines say hello.

The 3xx thing; surely y'all can make an exception if you're making them interstates.  You've got more 3di worthy turnpikes in the state than you do parent routes at this point, so something should give.  Pick second turnpike first digit number to use, maybe.
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

The Ghostbuster

Does Oklahoma's DOT have any plans to demolish the abandoned pavement that served as the JKT's southern terminus at SW 15th St. between 2001 and 2020? Or will it remain in place like the abandoned Interstate 44 pavement that was bypassed by construction of the Creek Turnpike in Tulsa?

Bobby5280

With the way they're wanting to attract movie and TV productions the over-grown roadways of those abandoned toll road segments could function as shooting locations in apocalyptic shows.

triplemultiplex

Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 04, 2023, 01:22:58 AM
With the way they're wanting to attract movie and TV productions the over-grown roadways of those abandoned toll road segments could function as shooting locations in apocalyptic shows.

Plus all those bombed-out little towns you're always talking about in the depopulating areas of the state. ;)
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

Bobby5280

Those dying towns would work great as shooting locations for post-apocalypse genre shows as well as horror movies. One problem is the crews and actors would have to do some driving well outside OKC or Tulsa to reach the best locations. They wouldn't have access to major city amenities out there in the boonies.

I could easily imagine a movie director or TV series show-runner ordering some 2nd unit crew people to visit the authentic "bombed out" towns to shoot a lot of footage. Then they would re-create the town digitally and use digital back-lot techniques to place the actors there via green screens. It would be cheaper to just go to the real towns and shoot the scenes there. But that would require some big city people to "rough it" for awhile in a small town.

Scott5114

Quote from: Bobby5280 on October 04, 2023, 02:14:09 PM
I could easily imagine a movie director or TV series show-runner ordering some 2nd unit crew people to visit the authentic "bombed out" towns to shoot a lot of footage. Then they would re-create the town digitally and use digital back-lot techniques to place the actors there via green screens. It would be cheaper to just go to the real towns and shoot the scenes there. But that would require some big city people to "rough it" for awhile in a small town.

That happens because camera operators are union labor but CGI editors are not.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Plutonic Panda

They should outdo Texas and post a 100MPH speed limit on the Kickapoo as an OKC bypass. Especially once it's extended south and north. It'd be like the 130 on steroids.

Bobby5280

#493
Quote from: Scott5114That happens because camera operators are union labor but CGI editors are not.

A great deal of movie and TV production moved to New Mexico and Georgia to get around some (but not all) unions. Then there are shows which are produced in Canada or Mexico. And then there's others shot in far off places like Australia and New Zealand. A lot of that is done to get away from the Teamsters. It's funny seeing cities like Vancouver, BC or Toronto pretend to be New York City.

In the 1990's and going into the 2000's it was American-based outfits like ILM and Digital Domain that dominated CGI work. Only a few shows, such as The Simpsons TV series were farming out production work to the Far East. WETA Digital (now known as Wētā FX) proved big CG productions, such as The Lord of the Rings Trilogy could be done far outside the US.

Steady improvements to computer hardware took away the need to use high end UNIX-based computer systems -like those Silicon Graphics workstations that handled so much pioneering work in the early 1990's. Today most render farms are built using ordinary off the shelf PCs running either Windows or some flavor of Linux.

Far less custom-engineered software is being developed for movies. So much can be done with existing apps like Maya and Houdini. Naturally, movie and TV productions have been farming out more and more CG work to firms based in places like India where sequences can be produced dirt cheap. The trends are easy to see in the end credits of movies.

Quote from: Plutonic PandaThey should outdo Texas and post a 100MPH speed limit on the Kickapoo as an OKC bypass. Especially once it's extended south and north. It'd be like the 130 on steroids.

I'd probably feel okay about that only if motorists could put down their damned phones.

sturmde

Quote from: bugo on September 11, 2023, 12:30:47 PM
Here's a map from ODOT showing the new setup. I-240, I-344 and OK 152 will end at the same interchange, which is silly.
(Map removed, we've seen it.)

THIS is why we have the AASHTO Special Committee on US Route Numbering, and the FHWA.  Hopefully both the association, and the agency will stop this insane Oklahoma request.  I mean, they shot down NC's sensible I-36 and forced I-42 on them, etc.  (I had no problem with I-87, as that made sense regionally more than I-89 which never could have continued from Concord NH to Norfolk.).
.
I-240 should maintain the route all the way at least to I-40 west of OKC.  If they want to "quote" the Twin Cities, they can have I-440 up there from I-44 to I-40, as that kind of makes sense 44 to 40, 440.  (But invoking I-865 rather than 665, perhaps 640 or 840 would be more clearly different).
.
I get their thought of I-335 needs to be an odd number at the end as the stupids think N-S routes end in odds... they dont, right 380,476,etc.?  They should number it I-340 or I-344.
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I didn't think their full I-240 loop though was such a bad idea.  It was like Cincinnati's I-275, or the metro's I-287.

bugo

Quote from: sturmde on October 05, 2023, 05:04:13 PM
I didn't think their full I-240 loop though was such a bad idea.  It was like Cincinnati's I-275, or the metro's I-287.

The proposed I-240 extension does not function as a loop. That's why it's a bad idea.
Nobody is on the level of the devil.

Bobby5280

#496
Quote from: sturmdeI-240 should maintain the route all the way at least to I-40 west of OKC.  If they want to "quote" the Twin Cities, they can have I-440 up there from I-44 to I-40, as that kind of makes sense 44 to 40, 440.

Yeah, the 44 to/from 40 thing is a good reason to call that portion of the Kilpatrick Turnpike "I-440." I like that a hell of a lot more than "I-344."

Quote from: bugoThe proposed I-240 extension does not function as a loop. That's why it's a bad idea.

That I-240 proposal is a bad idea for that reason and a bad idea for other reasons. The I-240 and I-344 designations would end at a PARTIAL interchange. That just absolutely sucks. On top of that, it's a partial interchange to a surface street, not a freeway. Additionally, the route is a signed State highway, not a US or Interstate Highway, which makes it not such a great terminus for two Interstate highways. I thought there was a requirement for Interstates to start and end at points in the national highway system.

IMHO, the only acceptable solution for an I-240 extension is having it signed all the way to I-40. It shouldn't make any difference if a portion of the highway is tolled. I-44 hops back and forth between being free and tolled 10 times between the Red River and Missouri border.

US75A

The only way that the I-240/SH 152 makes any sense is if the powers that be are planning for the Kilpatrick Turnpike to eventually extend south from the current end - there was talk of another extension running south (running east of Mustang) to connect with an upgraded SH 4 to complete an continuous expressway/turnpike from the Kilpatrick Tpk to the H.E. Bailey Spur near Bridge Creek.


Bobby5280

ODOT and OTA goofed up the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension.

When they started working on the project back in the 1990's it seemed pretty obvious the goal was to extend the Kilpatrick Turnpike straight down thru Mustang along/near South Sara Road and connect into the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension AND push it to I-35 just South of Norman. They failed on that.

All we got was bits and pieces of what should have been a South quadrant of an OKC Outer Loop. ODOT built a new divided highway bridge over the Canadian River just North of Bridge Creek. OK-4 has an upgrade-able Super 2 configuration from I-44 up to Rock Creek Road in Bridge Creek. ODOT or OTA is supposed to add a new freeway exit to OK-4 at Fox Lane. But that's only possible because they acquired the ROW more than 20 years ago.

OK-4 within Bridge Creek is being permanently turned into a Breezewood. It would take some pretty significant eminent domain action to buy and clear dozens of properties along Mustang Road to create room to build a freeway or toll road flanked by frontage roads. Looking at Google Earth imagery of 6/2023, it's clear a lot of new housing subdivisions are being built in the Bridge Creek area. If ODOT or OTA have any kinds of plans they better act on them soon. Otherwise Mustang Road will be locked as an undivided 5-lane street within Bridge Creek.

Even if a turnpike extension could be pushed up through Bridge Creek and over the Canadian River the task of connecting it to the Kilpatrick Turnpike would be an even more difficult task. There is a lot of new house building activity going on in the Mustang and Yukon areas. That activity is covering up any possible routes for an H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension to connect into the Kilpatrick. If anything, ODOT or OTA might be stuck having to build an elevated freeway over the top of South Sara Road. The more likely thing is they'll do nothing. That area of the OKC metro will just be covered up in stop light hell.

On the bright side, it's still geometrically possible to extend the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension farther East to I-35.

Plutonic Panda




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