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North Houston Highway Improvement Project (project resumed March 2023)

Started by MaxConcrete, April 22, 2015, 09:19:38 PM

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kphoger

Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 01, 2019, 07:36:39 PM
Even without the cultural and policy differences, time is still a big drawback to mass transit. You cannot get around in a big city very fast using subways, light rail lines, buses, etc.

Having used transit extensively in Chicago, I disagree with that statement.  Not having to find a parking spot downtown, not having to deal with traffic jams, etc–all of that saves time and, depending on the service, offsets the added time of waiting for transfers.  In fact, at rush hour, I found that I could often get around faster on transit than in my own car.

For tourists, transit is also superior in my opinion, as you don't have to pay for expensive parking and then walk a mile from your parking spot to wherever you're going.  Directions are easy too.  Instead of having to know all the streets to turn on, you just have to know what bus or rail line to get on and where to get off.  Pretty much any A-to-B journey can thus be accomplished with two transfers max.

I'd amend your statement to say you cannot get around in a small city very fast using transit, because smaller cities tend to have less frequent departures.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.


thisdj78

Quote from: kphoger on August 02, 2019, 02:30:28 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 01, 2019, 07:36:39 PM
Even without the cultural and policy differences, time is still a big drawback to mass transit. You cannot get around in a big city very fast using subways, light rail lines, buses, etc.

Having used transit extensively in Chicago, I disagree with that statement.  Not having to find a parking spot downtown, not having to deal with traffic jams, etc–all of that saves time and, depending on the service, offsets the added time of waiting for transfers.  In fact, at rush hour, I found that I could often get around faster on transit than in my own car.

For tourists, transit is also superior in my opinion, as you don't have to pay for expensive parking and then walk a mile from your parking spot to wherever you're going.  Directions are easy too.  Instead of having to know all the streets to turn on, you just have to know what bus or rail line to get on and where to get off.  Pretty much any A-to-B journey can thus be accomplished with two transfers max.

I'd amend your statement to say you cannot get around in a small city very fast using transit, because smaller cities tend to have less frequent departures.

Or to amend even further, you can't get around big automobile-centric cities very fast using public trans. Examples would be LA, Phoenix, Houston & Dallas. The growth of these cities came after the car, whereas NYC and to a lesser extend Chicago, experienced growth when not many people had cars....therefore it's easier to get around without one in those cities.

nolia_boi504

Quote from: kphoger on August 02, 2019, 02:30:28 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 01, 2019, 07:36:39 PM
Even without the cultural and policy differences, time is still a big drawback to mass transit. You cannot get around in a big city very fast using subways, light rail lines, buses, etc.

Having used transit extensively in Chicago, I disagree with that statement.  Not having to find a parking spot downtown, not having to deal with traffic jams, etc–all of that saves time and, depending on the service, offsets the added time of waiting for transfers.  In fact, at rush hour, I found that I could often get around faster on transit than in my own car.

For tourists, transit is also superior in my opinion, as you don't have to pay for expensive parking and then walk a mile from your parking spot to wherever you're going.  Directions are easy too.  Instead of having to know all the streets to turn on, you just have to know what bus or rail line to get on and where to get off.  Pretty much any A-to-B journey can thus be accomplished with two transfers max.

I'd amend your statement to say you cannot get around in a small city very fast using transit, because smaller cities tend to have less frequent departures.
Chicago's highways are significantly smaller than ours, and they don't have multiple massive business centers outside of the downtown area like we do. Plus their high parking rates, lack of parking options, congested streets, etc etc, etc are all a direct result of their mass transit focus from decades ago. Houston has evolved completely different than Chicago/NY. What works there doesn't work here. We should continue focusing on transit in heavily populated areas (Downtown, Galleria, etc).

Pixel 3


Plutonic Panda

Quote from: kphoger on August 02, 2019, 02:30:28 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 01, 2019, 07:36:39 PM
Even without the cultural and policy differences, time is still a big drawback to mass transit. You cannot get around in a big city very fast using subways, light rail lines, buses, etc.

Having used transit extensively in Chicago, I disagree with that statement.  Not having to find a parking spot downtown, not having to deal with traffic jams, etc–all of that saves time and, depending on the service, offsets the added time of waiting for transfers.  In fact, at rush hour, I found that I could often get around faster on transit than in my own car.

For tourists, transit is also superior in my opinion, as you don't have to pay for expensive parking and then walk a mile from your parking spot to wherever you're going.  Directions are easy too.  Instead of having to know all the streets to turn on, you just have to know what bus or rail line to get on and where to get off.  Pretty much any A-to-B journey can thus be accomplished with two transfers max.

I'd amend your statement to say you cannot get around in a small city very fast using transit, because smaller cities tend to have less frequent departures.
Thats generally only true if you have no transfers. Even a single transfer from my experience can add quite a bit of time to the trip and make it that much worse on the top of the grocery of reasons mass transit sucks.

Bobby5280

Quote from: kphogerHaving used transit extensively in Chicago, I disagree with that statement.  Not having to find a parking spot downtown, not having to deal with traffic jams, etc–all of that saves time and, depending on the service, offsets the added time of waiting for transfers.  In fact, at rush hour, I found that I could often get around faster on transit than in my own car.

I lived in New York City for 5 years and traveled daily between Staten Island and Manhattan for 4 of those years and Brooklyn for the last. Using the buses, subways and Staten Island Ferry was anything but fast. The commute was at least 90 minutes each way. The only way I could shave any time at all, maybe 10-15 minutes at most, was catching a bus over the Verrazano Bridge and getting on the R Train in Bay Ridge at just the right time. The commute was a slog.

Contrast that to my experiences temping at a couple "Wall Street" companies during the summers. I'd work late and the car service for Merrill Lynch would take me from the World Financial Center to my front door step in Staten Island in under 30 minutes. It was a pretty big extreme, and not one lost on me when I hear rich politicians extolling the virtues of mass transit when those same douche bags don't soil themselves with riding on the subway with "common folk." They're getting from point A to point B in a car service or some other kind of exclusionary gig.

Mass transit does offer its benefits. But time saving is definitely NOT one of them. If I was back in NYC the ONLY benefit I would see in using mass transit as opposed to driving a car is the cost savings on tolls and garage parking. There is absolutely nothing time saving about taking the bus, train and ferry.

rte66man

Bringing this back on subject......

Any updates on the Hardy Toll Road connection to I10/I69?
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

Revive 755

Quote from: nolia_boi504 on August 02, 2019, 05:22:12 PM
Chicago's highways are significantly smaller than ours, and they don't have multiple massive business centers outside of the downtown area like we do. Plus their high parking rates, lack of parking options, congested streets, etc etc, etc are all a direct result of their mass transit focus from decades ago. Houston has evolved completely different than Chicago/NY. What works there doesn't work here. We should continue focusing on transit in heavily populated areas (Downtown, Galleria, etc).
Pixel 3

Schaumburg, Oak Brook, and whatever village/city has the area along Lake Cook Road west of the Tri-State might disagree with the "business centers outside of downtown" part (maybe not the "massive" part though).

I strongly agree about the size of the highways in Chicagoland, especially considering the smaller St. Louis and Omaha metro seem to have as many highways at the same width.

kphoger

Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 03, 2019, 12:27:21 AM
I lived in New York City for 5 years and traveled daily between Staten Island and Manhattan for 4 of those years and Brooklyn for the last. Using the buses, subways and Staten Island Ferry was anything but fast. The commute was at least 90 minutes each way. The only way I could shave any time at all, maybe 10-15 minutes at most, was catching a bus over the Verrazano Bridge and getting on the R Train in Bay Ridge at just the right time. The commute was a slog.

What was the travel time by car for the same trip?  Without knowing that, I have no idea if 90 minutes is good or bad.  From your front door of your house to the front door of your destination, what was the time difference between driving and transit?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

thisdj78

Quote from: kphoger on August 05, 2019, 02:05:10 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 03, 2019, 12:27:21 AM
I lived in New York City for 5 years and traveled daily between Staten Island and Manhattan for 4 of those years and Brooklyn for the last. Using the buses, subways and Staten Island Ferry was anything but fast. The commute was at least 90 minutes each way. The only way I could shave any time at all, maybe 10-15 minutes at most, was catching a bus over the Verrazano Bridge and getting on the R Train in Bay Ridge at just the right time. The commute was a slog.

What was the travel time by car for the same trip?  Without knowing that, I have no idea if 90 minutes is good or bad.  From your front door of your house to the front door of your destination, what was the time difference between driving and transit?

I don't live there but have made that drive several times while there on business. Hotel to office was an hour minimum in non-peak times.

I looked up the route on Waze and it shows an hour and 26 minute drive during morning rush hour. But of course it could be different depending on which part of Staten and Manhattan you're going to and from, but probably not by much.

Chris

Nearly 600,000 Americans commute 90 minutes or more one way, according to the U.S. Census Bureau: https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2013/cb13-41.html

About 8.1 percent of U.S. workers have commutes of 60 minutes or longer, 4.3 percent work from home, and nearly 600,000 full-time workers had "megacommutes" of at least 90 minutes and 50 miles. The average one-way daily commute for workers across the country is 25.5 minutes, and one in four commuters leave their county to work.

According to Out-of-State and Long Commutes: 2011, 23.0 percent of workers with long commutes (60 minutes or more) use public transit, compared with 5.3 percent for all workers.

(...)

Based on the 2006-2010 American Community Survey, 586,805 full-time workers are mega commuters -- one in 122 of full-time workers. 


So while there are a lot of anecdotes about the terrible commutes and large amounts of people having very long commutes, the actual share of them is pretty low: 8.1% commute 60 minutes or more and only 0.8% of full-time workers commute 90 minutes or more. So it's safe to say a 90 minute commute is an outlier, though they might be more common in certain metropolitan areas with severely unaffordable housing or a higher transit share, as transit commutes tend to be significantly longer than other modes, this is true even in Europe.

kphoger

The reason I asked is that I don't consider a 90-minute public transit travel time to be outrageous, if the drive time is also 90 minutes.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

In_Correct

Quote from: kphoger on August 05, 2019, 04:59:19 PM
The reason I asked is that I don't consider a 90-minute public transit travel time to be outrageous, if the drive time is also 90 minutes.

Also consider that the roads can some times have delays which means the travel time is similar with general Public Transit and some times faster with Commuter Rail.
Drive Safely. :sombrero: Ride Safely. And Build More Roads, Rails, And Bridges. :coffee: ... Boulevards Wear Faster Than Interstates.

Bobby5280

Quote from: kphogerWhat was the travel time by car for the same trip?  Without knowing that, I have no idea if 90 minutes is good or bad.  From your front door of your house to the front door of your destination, what was the time difference between driving and transit?

Commuting by car took about half the time. When my parents where in NYC I would sometimes be able to catch a ride in my Dad's carpool from Fort Wadsworth in Staten Island to midtown Manhattan. That, and the short subway ride on the 6 train from 59th and 23rd Street would take roughly 45 minutes. This was roughly 30 years ago. Driving time might be a little longer in 2019, but I'm sure that the buses, ferry and subway haven't sped up at all either.

If I lived in NYC I would probably still use mass transit rather than drive a car into Manhattan. The tolls and parking costs are way too expensive. Cost savings is really the only advantage of using mass transit in New York City. Mass transit has plenty of its own drawbacks. I froze my butt off plenty of times standing at bus stops or on outdoor subway platforms. There's not too much shelter from the wind and rain there. Summer weather in the subway can be pretty unpleasant too. I've read NYC's homeless population has grown dramatically in recent years, so I imagine the subways have plenty of that piss, orange juice and carbon smell. Even if things are clean you still have to deal with crowds. God forbid you have to carry anything like a briefcase or portfolio case onto a crowded bus or subway car with standing room only space. Those real world features of mass transit aren't included in the romantic sales pitch proponents of mass transit sell to the public.

nolia_boi504



Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 08, 2019, 11:56:34 AM
Quote from: kphogerWhat was the travel time by car for the same trip?  Without knowing that, I have no idea if 90 minutes is good or bad.  From your front door of your house to the front door of your destination, what was the time difference between driving and transit?

Commuting by car took about half the time. When my parents where in NYC I would sometimes be able to catch a ride in my Dad's carpool from Fort Wadsworth in Staten Island to midtown Manhattan. That, and the short subway ride on the 6 train from 59th and 23rd Street would take roughly 45 minutes. This was roughly 30 years ago. Driving time might be a little longer in 2019, but I'm sure that the buses, ferry and subway haven't sped up at all either.

If I lived in NYC I would probably still use mass transit rather than drive a car into Manhattan. The tolls and parking costs are way too expensive. Cost savings is really the only advantage of using mass transit in New York City. Mass transit has plenty of its own drawbacks. I froze my butt off plenty of times standing at bus stops or on outdoor subway platforms. There's not too much shelter from the wind and rain there. Summer weather in the subway can be pretty unpleasant too. I've read NYC's homeless population has grown dramatically in recent years, so I imagine the subways have plenty of that piss, orange juice and carbon smell. Even if things are clean you still have to deal with crowds. God forbid you have to carry anything like a briefcase or portfolio case onto a crowded bus or subway car with standing room only space. Those real world features of mass transit aren't included in the romantic sales pitch proponents of mass transit sell to the public.

I wish more people with experience/perspective like you would speak up more about the downsides of public transit. I especially agree with your last sentence, where those "minor" inconveniences are swept aside.

Pixel 3


kphoger

I doubt the "romantic sales pitch proponents of mass transit" have ever had to actually get by without a car in the suburbs.  In the northern states.  In February.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kphoger

Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 08, 2019, 11:56:34 AM
God forbid you have to carry anything like a briefcase or portfolio case onto a crowded bus or subway car with standing room only space. Those real world features of mass transit aren't included in the romantic sales pitch proponents of mass transit sell to the public.

There was this one time...

I was catching Amtrak out of Chicago's Union Station with my then-two-year-old daughter.  We were getting there from Glen Ellyn, out in the western suburbs.  I had a rolling suitcase, a backpack, a car seat, a pack-and-play, a diaper bag, and maybe something else I'm forgetting.  As such, my goal was to get from Glen Ellyn to Union Station with as little walking as possible.  We took Metra to Oak Park, then took a city bus down Harlem to the Eisenhower, then the Blue Line L from Harlem to Clinton, then walked a few blocks from the Clinton subway station to Union Station–and all she was old enough to really carry was a stuffed animal.  I counted at the end, and I had made use of seven total strangers along the way.  This included loading or unloading things on or off a bus or train, and even one lady who held my daughter's hand to cross the street in downtown Chicago because for some reason she was refusing to budge and I didn't have an empty hand to grab her with.  Oh yeah, and the elevator was out of service at the Clinton subway station, so I had to haul all that baggage up the stairs without being able to help my daughter, who could still only climb stairs by using her hands–one of which was clutching the stuffed animal.  Which therefore became quite filthy.

Or those times I took Pace bus to do my grocery shopping, hauling one of those old-lady carts full of groceries on and off the bus.  That would have been impossible on a crowded CTA bus downtown, but it worked OK in the suburbs–but only because I was strong enough to load the whole cart onto my back while climbing the steps of the bus.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Bobby5280

Your story gave me more flashbacks to living in New York City, as well as living in Japan. My family didn't have a car when we were stationed in Japan for 3 years. When we lived off the Marine Corps base "out in town" we had to heat our old rental house using kerosene heaters. That meant frequent trips at least a half mile away to the nearest "Mama San Shop" convenience story that sold kerosene among other things. We would buy our groceries on the Marine Corps base and push them in four wheel carts all the way back home. Complete pain in the ass.

Hauling bags of groceries onto a city bus or subway train is no picnic either. Gotta always buy light loads of stuff and make more trips to the store.
:-/

In_Correct

These comments about the problems with public transit reminds me of The Bob Newhart Show, about Dr. Hartley walking endlessly to get to work. One of the scenes has him walking with Elliot Carlin.

Even if there are many problems with Public Transit, There are times that I want to take Public Transit. There are too many dangerous drunk drivers, or on the smart phones, or they simply do not have an understanding of traffic rules. Or perhaps some traffic rules is too dangerous. I hate "Turn Right On Red". I have heard an increase of horns honking at each other. Also if there are self driving cars that is going to cause even more problems as the car stalls during a software update.  :-o :crazy: :paranoid: :rolleyes:

Another concern I have is Ethanol. I will go out of my way to get NON Ethanol Gas (and even Diesel might contain Ethanol.) and almost every gas station in urban and suburban areas is going to have Ethanol, perhaps even E85. It seems they want to scare people who use conventional Petrol, and even Diesel.

I like to drive. I certainly like carrying every thing that I need. But if driving becomes too annoying, I would much rather take Public Transit if it is there and functional.

Drive Safely. :sombrero: Ride Safely. And Build More Roads, Rails, And Bridges. :coffee: ... Boulevards Wear Faster Than Interstates.

Plutonic Panda

I was looking at the project as a refresher and I really hope this thing is built. It has the potential to be game changing for downtown area. One of the documents has timeline established of 2021 to begin construction on the downtown loop which is segment 1. Is that still the right start date?

hotdogPi

Quote from: kphoger on August 10, 2019, 05:17:33 PM
I doubt the "romantic sales pitch proponents of mass transit" have ever had to actually get by without a car in the suburbs.  In the northern states.  In February.

I've done it.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

MaxConcrete

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 21, 2020, 03:55:01 PM
One of the documents has timeline established of 2021 to begin construction on the downtown loop which is segment 1. Is that still the right start date?

Yes, the current plan is to award a design-build contract for all the downtown work in 2021. The contract amount is currently listed at $2.9 billion
https://www.dot.state.tx.us/insdtdot/orgchart/cmd/cserve/let/2021/harris.htm#050008001

Downtown will require a major right-of-way clearance, and the Houston Chronicle recently reported on the relocation of the Mexican Consulate.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/transportation/article/Mexican-consulate-moving-to-southwest-Houston-to-14905843.php
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.732366,-95.3819319,3a,75y,114.21h,99.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH7DeTer3HT80YmrEjXaRug!2e0!7i3328!8i1664?hl=en

The ROD has not yet been released. When the ROD is issued, there is a good chance of a lawsuit against the project, which could delay it. Other factors could also cause delay, such as right-of-way clearance and utility relocation. So far, the all-out efforts of the opposition (including the anti-project Houston Chronicle) to kill the project have failed.
www.DFWFreeways.com
www.HoustonFreeways.com

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: MaxConcrete on January 21, 2020, 06:33:28 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 21, 2020, 03:55:01 PM
One of the documents has timeline established of 2021 to begin construction on the downtown loop which is segment 1. Is that still the right start date?

Yes, the current plan is to award a design-build contract for all the downtown work in 2021. The contract amount is currently listed at $2.9 billion
https://www.dot.state.tx.us/insdtdot/orgchart/cmd/cserve/let/2021/harris.htm#050008001

Downtown will require a major right-of-way clearance, and the Houston Chronicle recently reported on the relocation of the Mexican Consulate.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/transportation/article/Mexican-consulate-moving-to-southwest-Houston-to-14905843.php
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.732366,-95.3819319,3a,75y,114.21h,99.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH7DeTer3HT80YmrEjXaRug!2e0!7i3328!8i1664?hl=en

The ROD has not yet been released. When the ROD is issued, there is a good chance of a lawsuit against the project, which could delay it. Other factors could also cause delay, such as right-of-way clearance and utility relocation. So far, the all-out efforts of the opposition (including the anti-project Houston Chronicle) to kill the project have failed.
I am having a hard time understanding why they are protesting this project so fiercely. This project is tearing down a major divisive freeway, reconnecting neighborhoods, allow for a slight uptick in red line service, adding potential for new large park caps in several different places, and if I am not mistaken, will fund street bike/ped improvements along with a couple new trails/greenways.

That is all of the things it will do besides alleviate car traffic, modernize a roadway, and in turn will improve rubber tire mass transit lines but I get they do not care for those things. It doesn't make much sense for this to be protested as I am sure this will be the last time this freeway network in the vicinity gets widened this century.

MaxConcrete

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 21, 2020, 06:53:41 PM
I am having a hard time understanding why they are protesting this project so fiercely. This project is tearing down a major divisive freeway, reconnecting neighborhoods, allow for a slight uptick in red line service, adding potential for new large park caps in several different places, and if I am not mistaken, will fund street bike/ped improvements along with a couple new trails/greenways.

That is all of the things it will do besides alleviate car traffic, modernize a roadway, and in turn will improve rubber tire mass transit lines but I get they do not care for those things. It doesn't make much sense for this to be protested as I am sure this will be the last time this freeway network in the vicinity gets widened this century.

The Chronicle published a pro-project op-ed I submitted last August
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/outlook/article/Houston-needs-the-I-45-expansion-Opinion-14277421.php

However, the Chronicle buried it deep inside the print edition of the paper on a weekday, and held me to 700-word limit. I was mainly responding to two 2000+ word anti-project op-eds which the Chronicle featured on the front page of the Sunday editorial section (on different dates), including one by Jeff Speck who has no connection to Houston but is a well-known anti-freeway activist.

As for the opposition, they are generally recycling the usual claims that have been used against urban freeways for the last 50 years. The business community and City of Houston realize the benefits far outweigh any costs, and they support the project. As long as CoH stays on board, I think the project will surely move forward. Mayor Turner was re-elected in December, and he supports the project, and has said nothing negative about the project since re-election. (He did make some negative comments before the election, probably lip service to certain constituencies).
www.DFWFreeways.com
www.HoustonFreeways.com

Plutonic Panda

I just read your article. Very good article explaining as much detail as possible in 700 characters. Then I went to the comments to see what responses were and  :banghead:

Anthony_JK

Quote from: MaxConcrete on January 21, 2020, 06:33:28 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on January 21, 2020, 03:55:01 PM
One of the documents has timeline established of 2021 to begin construction on the downtown loop which is segment 1. Is that still the right start date?


Yes, the current plan is to award a design-build contract for all the downtown work in 2021. The contract amount is currently listed at $2.9 billion
https://www.dot.state.tx.us/insdtdot/orgchart/cmd/cserve/let/2021/harris.htm#050008001

Downtown will require a major right-of-way clearance, and the Houston Chronicle recently reported on the relocation of the Mexican Consulate.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/transportation/article/Mexican-consulate-moving-to-southwest-Houston-to-14905843.php
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.732366,-95.3819319,3a,75y,114.21h,99.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH7DeTer3HT80YmrEjXaRug!2e0!7i3328!8i1664?hl=en

The ROD has not yet been released. When the ROD is issued, there is a good chance of a lawsuit against the project, which could delay it. Other factors could also cause delay, such as right-of-way clearance and utility relocation. So far, the all-out efforts of the opposition (including the anti-project Houston Chronicle) to kill the project have failed.

So, what exactly do the opponents of this project want? Bring back the Pierce Elevated section? Or, blow out all the remaining sections and kill or boulevardize all the freeways in Houston inside of I-610 and the US 59/I-69 corridor? Or, even, rip that down and force I-69 to use the Grand Parkway (TX 99), as what was proposed originally in the TTC-69 tollway proposals?



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