Where the main roads are close together

Started by hbelkins, December 27, 2022, 01:27:20 PM

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webny99

Quote from: 1 on December 28, 2022, 09:41:40 AM
Quote from: Rothman on December 28, 2022, 09:36:22 AM
In Weedsport, NY, NY 31 and NY 34 are a block away from each other for a good stretch.  NYSDOT maintains the blocks inbetween.

The topic that you're talking about is a legitimate thread, but not this one. (This thread should probably be renamed to avoid confusion.)

NY 31/34 is a rare case where the roads are close both numerically and physically, so it is relevant here too.

I agree that the thread should be renamed, though: the first thing I thought of was NY 104/NY 404 in Webster and it turns out that's not what's being looked for at all.


Dirt Roads

How about a two-fer in New Orleans?  US-11 ends at US-90, but the terminus of these routes are about 16-1/2 miles apart. Plus, US-61 and US-90 run parallel for a little over 2 miles, and kinda parallel for about 6 miles.  US-61 and US-90 used to be concurrent on the section of Tulane Avenue between the two interchanges with I-10, but it appears as if US-90 and US-61 get close at the Airline Highway/Tulane Avenue interchange (I-10 Exit 232) but don't actually touch.  (Perhaps someone can confirm).

jmacswimmer

Continuing the US 40-US 50 theme: They get pretty close to each other in the Baltimore-Washington area. Measuring from I-97's southern terminus to I-695 exit 15 gives a distance of ~25 miles (measuring in a straight line would presumably give a slightly shorter distance). Meanwhile in far Western Maryland, US 40 & US 50 are about 35 miles apart on US 219.

Also if I'm not mistaken: Didn't US 40 & US 50 used to overlap across the Bay Bridge to their western terminus in San Francisco, prior to both being truncated west of where they each intersect I-80?

Meanwhile, US 30 & US 40 (in addition to their termini in Atlantic City mentioned upthread) are 22 miles apart on I-81 between Hagerstown & Chambersburg, 24 miles apart on I-70 between Hancock & Breezewood, & 26 miles apart on I-79 between Washington & Carnegie (straight-line distance would be a little less due to the I-70 overlap).
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US 89

Quote from: jmacswimmer on December 28, 2022, 12:18:53 PM
Also if I'm not mistaken: Didn't US 40 & US 50 used to overlap across the Bay Bridge to their western terminus in San Francisco, prior to both being truncated west of where they each intersect I-80?

They did. They also overlapped between West Wendover and west of Salt Lake City until 1952, when a new alignment for US 6 across the Utah west desert was completed. US 6 had been extended through the area way back in 1937, but it was in such poor condition they didn't want to move an x0 US route to it.

Dirt Roads

Idaho Falls.  The northern terminus of US-91 at US-26 is very close to US-20 (but I believe that US-26 has a concurrency with Business US-20 here).

US 89

Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 28, 2022, 04:21:32 PM
(but I believe that US-26 has a concurrency with Business US-20 here).

Not that far south. Business US 20 begins at I-15 and heads east on Broadway to Yellowstone Ave, then north to Holmes Ave and back north to 20. US 91 ends at US 26 at Sunnyside Ave, which is a mile south of Broadway. 26 is concurrent with Business I-15 through the 91 endpoint, though.

roadman65

Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 28, 2022, 11:45:44 AM
How about a two-fer in New Orleans?  US-11 ends at US-90, but the terminus of these routes are about 16-1/2 miles apart. Plus, US-61 and US-90 run parallel for a little over 2 miles, and kinda parallel for about 6 miles.  US-61 and US-90 used to be concurrent on the section of Tulane Avenue between the two interchanges with I-10, but it appears as if US-90 and US-61 get close at the Airline Highway/Tulane Avenue interchange (I-10 Exit 232) but don't actually touch.  (Perhaps someone can confirm).

Better yet. US 11 once got closer as it overlapped US 90 on Chef Highway.  Both US 51 and 61 remained close as the former did make it to NOLA when US 11 overlapped into it as well. In fact US 51 today ends at US 61 at LaPlace. I have to check my old map but both might of overlapped on Airline or Jefferson Highways during those days.
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hbelkins

Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 27, 2022, 06:19:54 PM
There's an interesting theme imbedded in AARoads that the US-X5s seem to be regarded as major highways, rather than the US-X1s (as intended by the American Automobile Association in their original numbering scheme).  Anyhow, I will add my two bits that some folks might consider both US-X1s and US-X5s as the major north-south highways.  US-21, US-60 and US-35 all came together in roughly the same place on the far West Side of Charleston, West Virginia.  US-35 didn't touch US-21 for much of their history.  But US-21 and US-60 were multiplexed from this point southeastward, so I'm not sure that the OP would consider these as "close together" since they are too close for comfort.

Anyhow, we had a recent similar thread where I discussed this location ad naseum:  Closest U.S Routes get without Intersecting

In my youth, I knew that the major interstates ended in 0 or 5 because a lot of oil company maps pointed that out. I erroneously labored under the impression that the US routes were that way as well, until I learned in the early days of the Internet (probably MTR and/or James Sterbenz' US routes site) that it's the x1, not x5, US routes that are the main north-south routes. But even before I learned that, I questioned the numbering of US 35, as it's not a major corridor -- at least it wasn't before the four-lane route was constructed between Dayton and Charleston.

I probably clumsily named this thread, because I was specifically referring to the x1 and x0 US routes, not 3dus routes or two-digit routes like US 25 and US 27 (mentioned above).

Also, is there definitive proof that US 2 was intended to be a "US 0" route? It doesn't serve any major population centers in either its eastern or western iterations.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Dirt Roads

Boston:  US-20 gets awfully close to US-1.  For this thread, that might be awe-ful.

KeithE4Phx

Quote from: elsmere241 on December 27, 2022, 02:32:53 PM
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on December 27, 2022, 02:29:15 PM
Between 1934 and 1969, US 60 and 70 were concurrent from Globe AZ to Los Angeles.

US 80 tied in there as well for some of that.

Yes, between 1932 and 1977, US 80 was concurrent with US 60 (and US 70 during its existence on that route, along with US 89) between what was then Florence Junction and downtown Phoenix.  "Florence Junction" is still occasionally mentioned, but it's now a vacant lot at the intersection of AZ 79 (Historic US 80 & 89) and a county road that goes to Queen Valley.
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wxfree

Quote from: Road Hog on December 27, 2022, 10:43:41 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 27, 2022, 06:05:31 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 27, 2022, 05:07:50 PM
US-30 also ends up north of US-20 on the west end. But I'm pretty sure that US-20 was extended as US-30 is the only US route that has run coast to coast since the beginning of the US highway system.

Don't say that to David Sturm on Freeway Jim on FB.  Oh he argued with me over US 20 being the true to coast to coast route. His argument was Astoria,OR is not directly on the Pacific Ocean. When I brought up the fact Boston isn't for US 20 he said the Boston Harbor is an Estuary of the Atlantic and counts as part of it where the Columbia River is 12 miles inland where US 30 ends.

Good lord, a US highway doesn't have to terminate at a boat ramp to be considered "coast to coast."

This reminds me of a television show I watched years ago.  I don't remember the details, but I remember that it included a segment on the first "coast to coast" drive, which was something like "somewhere in New York City" to "somewhere in San Francisco," two indisputably coastal cities, and that later someone else actually backed a car into the ocean and then drove the other way and put the front tires into the other ocean, for the first truly coast to coast drive.

As I see it, Boston is on the coast, because it has land at zero elevation (sea level) adjacent to water that continuously adjoins to the sea, and Astoria is not on the coast, because my admittedly somewhat short and hasty research shows a minimum elevation of about 10 feet. The adjacent water is within the estuary because high tides slow down the flow of water pouring out of that part of the river without slowing down the water pouring into it.  I don't assert that any estuary is a part of the sea, but I assert that the coast should be the zero elevation line.  If a highways enters and is a significant corridor within a city that reaches the coast, then I would consider it to reach the coast.  If it enters and is a significant corridor within a city that gets to within a few feet of sea level, then I would consider it to be a highway that almost reaches the coast.
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SEWIGuy

Quote from: wxfree on December 29, 2022, 01:18:55 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on December 27, 2022, 10:43:41 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 27, 2022, 06:05:31 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 27, 2022, 05:07:50 PM
US-30 also ends up north of US-20 on the west end. But I'm pretty sure that US-20 was extended as US-30 is the only US route that has run coast to coast since the beginning of the US highway system.

Don't say that to David Sturm on Freeway Jim on FB.  Oh he argued with me over US 20 being the true to coast to coast route. His argument was Astoria,OR is not directly on the Pacific Ocean. When I brought up the fact Boston isn't for US 20 he said the Boston Harbor is an Estuary of the Atlantic and counts as part of it where the Columbia River is 12 miles inland where US 30 ends.

Good lord, a US highway doesn't have to terminate at a boat ramp to be considered "coast to coast."

This reminds me of a television show I watched years ago.  I don't remember the details, but I remember that it included a segment on the first "coast to coast" drive, which was something like "somewhere in New York City" to "somewhere in San Francisco," two indisputably coastal cities, and that later someone else actually backed a car into the ocean and then drove the other way and put the front tires into the other ocean, for the first truly coast to coast drive.

As I see it, Boston is on the coast, because it has land at zero elevation (sea level) adjacent to water that continuously adjoins to the sea, and Astoria is not on the coast, because my admittedly somewhat short and hasty research shows a minimum elevation of about 10 feet. The adjacent water is within the estuary because high tides slow down the flow of water pouring out of that part of the river without slowing down the water pouring into it.  I don't assert that any estuary is a part of the sea, but I assert that the coast should be the zero elevation line.  If a highways enters and is a significant corridor within a city that reaches the coast, then I would consider it to reach the coast.  If it enters and is a significant corridor within a city that gets to within a few feet of sea level, then I would consider it to be a highway that almost reaches the coast.


Two problems...

First, this is just overly pedantic.  I have been involved with the "roadgeek community" for over 20 years, and this is the first time I have seen someone attempt to argue that US-30 is not a coast-to-coast highway. It ends at US-101 just before it goes over a bridge where you can see the Pacific Ocean. It ends about the same distance from the Pacific Ocean as the crow flies as I-80 does in San Francisco. But since the municipal boundaries of San Francisco "reach the coast" and Astoria may not "reach the coast," I-80 is considered coast to coast but US-30 doesn't? Sorry but that is just too much hair splitting for me.

Second, I think you are wrong. Astoria has a seawater port within its municipal boundaries. I would guess that the elevation where the Columbia River touches this port is at zero - or close enough to not make a difference.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: hbelkins on December 28, 2022, 06:44:04 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 27, 2022, 06:19:54 PM
There's an interesting theme imbedded in AARoads that the US-X5s seem to be regarded as major highways, rather than the US-X1s (as intended by the American Automobile Association in their original numbering scheme).  Anyhow, I will add my two bits that some folks might consider both US-X1s and US-X5s as the major north-south highways.  US-21, US-60 and US-35 all came together in roughly the same place on the far West Side of Charleston, West Virginia.  US-35 didn't touch US-21 for much of their history.  But US-21 and US-60 were multiplexed from this point southeastward, so I'm not sure that the OP would consider these as "close together" since they are too close for comfort.

Anyhow, we had a recent similar thread where I discussed this location ad naseum:  Closest U.S Routes get without Intersecting

In my youth, I knew that the major interstates ended in 0 or 5 because a lot of oil company maps pointed that out. I erroneously labored under the impression that the US routes were that way as well, until I learned in the early days of the Internet (probably MTR and/or James Sterbenz' US routes site) that it's the x1, not x5, US routes that are the main north-south routes. But even before I learned that, I questioned the numbering of US 35, as it's not a major corridor -- at least it wasn't before the four-lane route was constructed between Dayton and Charleston.

I probably clumsily named this thread, because I was specifically referring to the x1 and x0 US routes, not 3dus routes or two-digit routes like US 25 and US 27 (mentioned above).

Also, is there definitive proof that US 2 was intended to be a "US 0" route? It doesn't serve any major population centers in either its eastern or western iterations.

I don't know what you mean by "definitive proof," but I believe it is the only non-US-x0 route to originally go coast to coast.

Rothman

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2022, 07:55:15 AM
Quote from: wxfree on December 29, 2022, 01:18:55 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on December 27, 2022, 10:43:41 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 27, 2022, 06:05:31 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 27, 2022, 05:07:50 PM
US-30 also ends up north of US-20 on the west end. But I'm pretty sure that US-20 was extended as US-30 is the only US route that has run coast to coast since the beginning of the US highway system.

Don't say that to David Sturm on Freeway Jim on FB.  Oh he argued with me over US 20 being the true to coast to coast route. His argument was Astoria,OR is not directly on the Pacific Ocean. When I brought up the fact Boston isn't for US 20 he said the Boston Harbor is an Estuary of the Atlantic and counts as part of it where the Columbia River is 12 miles inland where US 30 ends.

Good lord, a US highway doesn't have to terminate at a boat ramp to be considered "coast to coast."

This reminds me of a television show I watched years ago.  I don't remember the details, but I remember that it included a segment on the first "coast to coast" drive, which was something like "somewhere in New York City" to "somewhere in San Francisco," two indisputably coastal cities, and that later someone else actually backed a car into the ocean and then drove the other way and put the front tires into the other ocean, for the first truly coast to coast drive.

As I see it, Boston is on the coast, because it has land at zero elevation (sea level) adjacent to water that continuously adjoins to the sea, and Astoria is not on the coast, because my admittedly somewhat short and hasty research shows a minimum elevation of about 10 feet. The adjacent water is within the estuary because high tides slow down the flow of water pouring out of that part of the river without slowing down the water pouring into it.  I don't assert that any estuary is a part of the sea, but I assert that the coast should be the zero elevation line.  If a highways enters and is a significant corridor within a city that reaches the coast, then I would consider it to reach the coast.  If it enters and is a significant corridor within a city that gets to within a few feet of sea level, then I would consider it to be a highway that almost reaches the coast.


Two problems...

First, this is just overly pedantic.  I have been involved with the "roadgeek community" for over 20 years, and this is the first time I have seen someone attempt to argue that US-30 is not a coast-to-coast highway. It ends at US-101 just before it goes over a bridge where you can see the Pacific Ocean. It ends about the same distance from the Pacific Ocean as the crow flies as I-80 does in San Francisco. But since the municipal boundaries of San Francisco "reach the coast" and Astoria may not "reach the coast," I-80 is considered coast to coast but US-30 doesn't? Sorry but that is just too much hair splitting for me.

Second, I think you are wrong. Astoria has a seawater port within its municipal boundaries. I would guess that the elevation where the Columbia River touches this port is at zero - or close enough to not make a difference.
I agree with SEWI.  Anyone who thinks Astoria is not on the coast has not been to Astoria.  The assertion is patently ridiculous.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kphoger

For what it's worth...  When BAK ends in Atchison, it's common for some cyclists to ride all the way to the Missouri River bank and dip their front wheel in the water, just to say they actually made it all the way across the state.  And, if the race starts at the first town west of the Colorado state line, many cyclists actually start ahead of time from the state line itself.
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Male pronouns, please.

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hbelkins

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2022, 07:58:58 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 28, 2022, 06:44:04 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 27, 2022, 06:19:54 PM
There's an interesting theme imbedded in AARoads that the US-X5s seem to be regarded as major highways, rather than the US-X1s (as intended by the American Automobile Association in their original numbering scheme).  Anyhow, I will add my two bits that some folks might consider both US-X1s and US-X5s as the major north-south highways.  US-21, US-60 and US-35 all came together in roughly the same place on the far West Side of Charleston, West Virginia.  US-35 didn't touch US-21 for much of their history.  But US-21 and US-60 were multiplexed from this point southeastward, so I'm not sure that the OP would consider these as "close together" since they are too close for comfort.

Anyhow, we had a recent similar thread where I discussed this location ad naseum:  Closest U.S Routes get without Intersecting

In my youth, I knew that the major interstates ended in 0 or 5 because a lot of oil company maps pointed that out. I erroneously labored under the impression that the US routes were that way as well, until I learned in the early days of the Internet (probably MTR and/or James Sterbenz' US routes site) that it's the x1, not x5, US routes that are the main north-south routes. But even before I learned that, I questioned the numbering of US 35, as it's not a major corridor -- at least it wasn't before the four-lane route was constructed between Dayton and Charleston.

I probably clumsily named this thread, because I was specifically referring to the x1 and x0 US routes, not 3dus routes or two-digit routes like US 25 and US 27 (mentioned above).

Also, is there definitive proof that US 2 was intended to be a "US 0" route? It doesn't serve any major population centers in either its eastern or western iterations.

I don't know what you mean by "definitive proof," but I believe it is the only non-US-x0 route to originally go coast to coast.

When was US 2 ever a continuous route? Isn't it more like I-76 or I-88 -- that is, two separate routes with the same number that could possibly be linked? Was US 2 ever signed through Canada from New York to Michigan?


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: hbelkins on December 29, 2022, 01:48:27 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2022, 07:58:58 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 28, 2022, 06:44:04 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 27, 2022, 06:19:54 PM
There's an interesting theme imbedded in AARoads that the US-X5s seem to be regarded as major highways, rather than the US-X1s (as intended by the American Automobile Association in their original numbering scheme).  Anyhow, I will add my two bits that some folks might consider both US-X1s and US-X5s as the major north-south highways.  US-21, US-60 and US-35 all came together in roughly the same place on the far West Side of Charleston, West Virginia.  US-35 didn't touch US-21 for much of their history.  But US-21 and US-60 were multiplexed from this point southeastward, so I'm not sure that the OP would consider these as "close together" since they are too close for comfort.

Anyhow, we had a recent similar thread where I discussed this location ad naseum:  Closest U.S Routes get without Intersecting

In my youth, I knew that the major interstates ended in 0 or 5 because a lot of oil company maps pointed that out. I erroneously labored under the impression that the US routes were that way as well, until I learned in the early days of the Internet (probably MTR and/or James Sterbenz' US routes site) that it's the x1, not x5, US routes that are the main north-south routes. But even before I learned that, I questioned the numbering of US 35, as it's not a major corridor -- at least it wasn't before the four-lane route was constructed between Dayton and Charleston.

I probably clumsily named this thread, because I was specifically referring to the x1 and x0 US routes, not 3dus routes or two-digit routes like US 25 and US 27 (mentioned above).

Also, is there definitive proof that US 2 was intended to be a "US 0" route? It doesn't serve any major population centers in either its eastern or western iterations.

I don't know what you mean by "definitive proof," but I believe it is the only non-US-x0 route to originally go coast to coast.

When was US 2 ever a continuous route? Isn't it more like I-76 or I-88 -- that is, two separate routes with the same number that could possibly be linked? Was US 2 ever signed through Canada from New York to Michigan?


LOL obviously it is discontinuous. But I think your point indicates why US-2 was meant to be a major route. Otherwise, why continue it on both sides?  Why not just make eastern US-2 something like US-4 instead?

StogieGuy7

The thread says "where the main roads are close together" which I will answer not by citing some long US highways but rather with 2 of the busiest "main roads" in the nation that happen to be right next door to one another for several miles: the NJ Turnpike and I-295 in southern NJ. You can read the signage from one to the other. I actually remember being a little kid riding along the NJTP and seeing the construction of the new freeway which seemed strange because it was right next door to the Turnpike. And it was clearly different because the BGS' were installed long before it opened so even 6 year old me was positive that this was a totally different route.  Not to mention that it diverges for a time, them closes back in for a couple more miles before heading off toward Trenton.

I-88 and I-355 in Downers Grove also parallel each other closely, but that's for maybe a mile at the most.

It may be a different take on the question, but one which answers the title literally.

SkyPesos

#43
I still find it interesting that the distance between US 61 and US 31 is about the same as between US 61 and US 71, and US 31 and US 21 in the lower Midwest. I don't see anything between St Louis and Indy that warrants two additional x1 US routes. Lots of unused (37, 39, 47, 55) or out-of-place (33, 35, 57, 59) odd US route numbers between 31 and 61 from this.

Flint1979

Quote from: SkyPesos on January 03, 2023, 08:07:05 PM
I still find it interesting that the distance between US 61 and US 31 is about the same as between US 61 and US 71, and US 31 and US 21 in the lower Midwest. I don't see anything between St Louis and Indy that warrants two additional x1 US routes. Lots of unused (37, 39, 47, 55) or out-of-place (33, 35, 57, 59) odd US route numbers between 31 and 61 from this.
That does seem interesting.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: SkyPesos on January 03, 2023, 08:07:05 PM
I still find it interesting that the distance between US 61 and US 31 is about the same as between US 61 and US 71, and US 31 and US 21 in the lower Midwest. I don't see anything between St Louis and Indy that warrants two additional x1 US routes. Lots of unused (37, 39, 47, 55) or out-of-place (33, 35, 57, 59) odd US route numbers between 31 and 61 from this.


US-41 was most definitely deserving of a US-x1 status.  I think it could be argued that US-51 would have been better along the US-61 corridor and that the current US-51 could have been US-45.

Regardless, the diagonal nature of US-41 was going to mean a lot of out of place US highways.  And this is why people need to cut some slack about "the grid." It was never meant to be perfect.



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