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Snow and ice removal

Started by hbelkins, December 29, 2022, 02:30:31 PM

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hbelkins

Just before Christmas, Kentucky took a winter storm that saw rain change to snow, temperatures crash about 50 degrees in a span of a few hours, and flash-frozen roads with a couple of inches of snow on them. The temperature barely budged above 0 F on the 23rd and not much warmer on Christmas Eve.

There were huge traffic messes, including one on I-71 between US 127 and I-75.

A lot of Kentucky's messaging during that time was that melting agents don't work when it gets that cold. Kentucky typically uses standard salt and will wet it down in the spreader trucks with liquid calcium chloride, but that proved ineffective for a lot of the snow removal.

What do other states use to melt snow and ice, especially those in New England and the upper midwest where they're used to temps hovering around 0? This has to be something that North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Maine deal with several times a year. How do they clear their roads?


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.


SEWIGuy

Quote from: hbelkins on December 29, 2022, 02:30:31 PM
Just before Christmas, Kentucky took a winter storm that saw rain change to snow, temperatures crash about 50 degrees in a span of a few hours, and flash-frozen roads with a couple of inches of snow on them. The temperature barely budged above 0 F on the 23rd and not much warmer on Christmas Eve.

There were huge traffic messes, including one on I-71 between US 127 and I-75.

A lot of Kentucky's messaging during that time was that melting agents don't work when it gets that cold. Kentucky typically uses standard salt and will wet it down in the spreader trucks with liquid calcium chloride, but that proved ineffective for a lot of the snow removal.

What do other states use to melt snow and ice, especially those in New England and the upper midwest where they're used to temps hovering around 0? This has to be something that North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Maine deal with several times a year. How do they clear their roads?


The roads up here were pretty bad until yesterday when it warmed up into the 20s. Then they scraped them with plows and used salts. Now that its above freezing, the roads are mostly just wet, but snow still exists where there isn't a lot of traffic.

GaryV

In northern Michigan, especially the UP, often they plow the snow as best they can and spread sand on whatever is remaining.

Dirt Roads

In West Virginia, the DOH used sand and once-upon-a-time used cinders.  I believe that cinders are no longer considered to be healthy because of the potential for high concentrations of sulfur and heavy metal contaminants.  (Of course, in West Virginia we also spelt that chemical element as "Sulphur").

But if you missed my point in a previous post, those other states (including West Virginia) do not try to completely remove the snow from the roadway surface.  Instead (speaking from a West Virginia point of view), we were taught that it is sometimes necessary to drive in snow and ice and that it is OK to do the slip-slide occasionally, even if it meant that you plowed into somebody else (or a tree).  The DOH experimented with heated guideway technology back in the 1970s, but the main purpose was to prevent salt damage to bridges (ergo potholes and corrosion of important structural elements), rather than complete snow and ice removal.

Max Rockatansky

Caltrans doesn't do much beyond basic plowing and use of occasional brine.

skluth

One thing I hated about living in St Louis City is the city only plows/salts the main streets and lets nature do the rest. This normally isn't too bad but in late 1991 we had a series of ice storms starting at Thanksgiving that hit every 4-5 days with subfreezing temperatures between the storms so the ice never melted. By the solstice there was 2-3 inches of ice on the ground and driving on any side street with even a minor slope was seriously dangerous. I woke up one day to discover someone had skated across my lawn. The ice melted between the solstice and Xmas Day so there was no White Christmas in St Louis that year despite the ice month from hell. I was shocked when I moved to South County and discovered the county plows all the streets including my insignificant block-long side street.

kalvado

Albany NY area had a similar situation last year. Pre-salted roads could be plowed, but a lot of people had driveways covered with ice for a week or so.
Starting the cycle with rain washing off pre-sprayed salt may make things interesting. I don't think there is an effective way to melt ice once it is fused to the road and the temperature is low. Sand may be an option, but it is not an SOP in most places...

TheHighwayMan3561

#7
Unfortunately as mentioned, snow/ice melt solutions see drastic reductions in effectiveness as temperatures decline. A significant snow followed by a lengthy cold snap with temperatures not getting much above 0 for several following days (assuming no additional snow) probably results in 2-3 days of not being able to drive the speed limit safely around here. That doesn't stop some people from trying, but F around and...well, you know.

I guess, we just kind of deal with it.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

webny99

Yes, my experience with Minnesota, North Dakota, and one winter trip to Montana has been that they plow snow a lot less than we do here in the Great Lakes snow belt. That's because temperatures are that much colder on average, so the heavy salting we do here doesn't work as well there. Almost everyone has 4WD and just seem to accept that the roads won't be clear right after a big snowfall - and in fact, the roads are actually safer to drive with a layer of hard snowpack than trying to clear them to blacktop and being left with a slick, slushy mix.

LilianaUwU

I'm starting to think Québec City just doesn't plow at all.
"Volcano with no fire... Not volcano... Just mountain."
—Mr. Thwomp

My pronouns are she/her. Also, I'm an admin on the AARoads Wiki.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2022, 06:06:46 PM
Yes, my experience with Minnesota, North Dakota, and one winter trip to Montana has been that they plow snow a lot less than we do here in the Great Lakes snow belt. That's because temperatures are that much colder on average, so the heavy salting we do here doesn't work as well there. Almost everyone has 4WD and just seem to accept that the roads won't be clear right after a big snowfall - and in fact, the roads are actually safer to drive with a layer of hard snowpack than trying to clear them to blacktop and being left with a slick, slushy mix.


I don't agree with that at all.  A hard snowpack is awful to drive on.

froggie

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2022, 06:55:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2022, 06:06:46 PM
Yes, my experience with Minnesota, North Dakota, and one winter trip to Montana has been that they plow snow a lot less than we do here in the Great Lakes snow belt. That's because temperatures are that much colder on average, so the heavy salting we do here doesn't work as well there. Almost everyone has 4WD and just seem to accept that the roads won't be clear right after a big snowfall - and in fact, the roads are actually safer to drive with a layer of hard snowpack than trying to clear them to blacktop and being left with a slick, slushy mix.


I don't agree with that at all.  A hard snowpack is awful to drive on.

Hard snowpack that has sand on it is fine on unpaved roads.  I'm often able to go as fast on such as I usually do during the summer.  But paved roads are an entirely different story.  Differences in albedo and radiation absorbtion mean that snowpack on pavement usually turns to ice...much more so than on unpaved roads.

kalvado

Quote from: froggie on December 29, 2022, 08:01:20 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2022, 06:55:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2022, 06:06:46 PM
Yes, my experience with Minnesota, North Dakota, and one winter trip to Montana has been that they plow snow a lot less than we do here in the Great Lakes snow belt. That's because temperatures are that much colder on average, so the heavy salting we do here doesn't work as well there. Almost everyone has 4WD and just seem to accept that the roads won't be clear right after a big snowfall - and in fact, the roads are actually safer to drive with a layer of hard snowpack than trying to clear them to blacktop and being left with a slick, slushy mix.


I don't agree with that at all.  A hard snowpack is awful to drive on.

Hard snowpack that has sand on it is fine on unpaved roads.  I'm often able to go as fast on such as I usually do during the summer.  But paved roads are an entirely different story.  Differences in albedo and radiation absorbtion mean that snowpack on pavement usually turns to ice...much more so than on unpaved roads.
Do you mean that packed ice is transparent enough to IR  for underlying surface to get enough sun, or some other mechanism?
Thinking about it, alternative could be how single exposed dark spot on smooth pavement tends to cause change on thin ice edges, as opposed to a single protruding stone surounded by thicker ice...   

SEWIGuy

Quote from: froggie on December 29, 2022, 08:01:20 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 29, 2022, 06:55:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on December 29, 2022, 06:06:46 PM
Yes, my experience with Minnesota, North Dakota, and one winter trip to Montana has been that they plow snow a lot less than we do here in the Great Lakes snow belt. That's because temperatures are that much colder on average, so the heavy salting we do here doesn't work as well there. Almost everyone has 4WD and just seem to accept that the roads won't be clear right after a big snowfall - and in fact, the roads are actually safer to drive with a layer of hard snowpack than trying to clear them to blacktop and being left with a slick, slushy mix.


I don't agree with that at all.  A hard snowpack is awful to drive on.

Hard snowpack that has sand on it is fine on unpaved roads.  I'm often able to go as fast on such as I usually do during the summer.  But paved roads are an entirely different story.  Differences in albedo and radiation absorbtion mean that snowpack on pavement usually turns to ice...much more so than on unpaved roads.


Yes, that is my experience.  Plus they tend to get "potholes" that make them bumpy and slippery. 

hbelkins

Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 29, 2022, 03:09:22 PM
In West Virginia, the DOH used sand and once-upon-a-time used cinders.  I believe that cinders are no longer considered to be healthy because of the potential for high concentrations of sulfur and heavy metal contaminants.  (Of course, in West Virginia we also spelt that chemical element as "Sulphur").

But if you missed my point in a previous post, those other states (including West Virginia) do not try to completely remove the snow from the roadway surface.  Instead (speaking from a West Virginia point of view), we were taught that it is sometimes necessary to drive in snow and ice and that it is OK to do the slip-slide occasionally, even if it meant that you plowed into somebody else (or a tree).  The DOH experimented with heated guideway technology back in the 1970s, but the main purpose was to prevent salt damage to bridges (ergo potholes and corrosion of important structural elements), rather than complete snow and ice removal.

I distinctly remember WV using cinders with the salt in a heavy snowstorm back in 2004.

I've told the story before. I had driven to Washington DC via I-68 and intended to return via I-81/I-64. I hate sharing freeways with speeding traffic (especially big trucks) when it's snowing, because those trucks don't slow down for conditions. I'd rather drive a mountainous two-lane road at slow speed than have trucks whizzing by me in the snow like the road was dry. It started snowing on me not long after Haymarket, and it was coming down at a decent clip and starting to stick to the pavement by the time I got to the end of I-66. So I bailed off the interstate at Strasburg and took VA/WV 55 (which included the new section of Corridor H between Baker and Moorefield), US 220, WV 42, WV 93, US 219, and US 33 to I-79. It was snowing heavily from Wardensville to Parsons, but I didn't have any trouble. The snow was down to nearly nothing by the time I got to Montrose and was pretty much gone by Buckhannon.

WV was plowing and treating along the route, but I had no issues navigating the mountain climb on the WV 42/93 concurrency, or US 219 between Thomas and Parsons. Having a 4WD truck with new tires made a huge difference. I figured traffic would be light (it was) and I trusted my own driving ability more than the truckers doing 70 on a snow-covered I-81.

There was a heavy application of cinders along with the salt.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

J N Winkler

#15
Quote from: hbelkins on December 29, 2022, 02:30:31 PMWhat do other states use to melt snow and ice, especially those in New England and the upper midwest where they're used to temps hovering around 0? This has to be something that North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Maine deal with several times a year. How do they clear their roads?

They use basically the same equipment, materials, and techniques as states further south.  Winter maintenance budgets are larger and there are some differences in underlying infrastructure provision (e.g., more extensive RWIS sensor networks, blade up/blade down markers on guardrails and other roadside obstacles), but generally speaking, pretty much every state DOT tries to operate a bare pavement policy for the upper echelons of its road hierarchy.  Whether it can do so hinges on variables specific to each storm.

It is often said that Southern states are more likely to have problems with winter precipitation falling as ice, but there are plenty of examples of systematic breakdowns in the North due to heavy accumulations.  Besides Buffalo in the last week, Pennsylvania had a storm in February 2007 that coated Interstates with six inches of ice, and just last January about 50 miles of I-95 in Virginia had to close because of a popup blizzard.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

kphoger

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 29, 2022, 05:43:09 PM
A significant snow followed by a lengthy cold snap with temperatures not getting much above 0 for several following days (assuming no additional snow) probably results in 2-3 days of not being able to drive the speed limit safely around here. Not that that doesn't stop some people from trying, but F around and...well, you know.

Well, I'm glad it stops people from trying, at least!   :-D
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

hbelkins

Quote from: J N Winkler on December 30, 2022, 02:11:14 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 29, 2022, 02:30:31 PMWhat do other states use to melt snow and ice, especially those in New England and the upper midwest where they're used to temps hovering around 0? This has to be something that North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Maine deal with several times a year. How do they clear their roads?

They use basically the same equipment, materials, and techniques as states further south.  Winter maintenance budgets are larger and there are some differences in underlying infrastructure provision (e.g., more extensive RWIS sensor networks, blade up/blade down markers on guardrails and other roadside obstacles), but generally speaking, pretty much every state DOT tries to operate a bare pavement policy for the upper echelons of its road hierarchy.  Whether it can do so hinges on variables specific to each storm.

It is often said that Southern states are more likely to have problems with winter precipitation falling as ice, but there are plenty of examples of systematic breakdowns in the North due to heavy accumulations.  Besides Buffalo in the last week, Pennsylvania had a storm in February 2007 that coated Interstates with six inches of ice, and just last January about 50 miles of I-95 in Virginia had to close because of a popup blizzard.

Sometime in the late 2000s, the Dallas area got hit with a snow and ice storm right around the time they were hosting the Super Bowl. My wife was in the area for a related event and she said the roads were atrocious. Dallas/Ft. Worth were completely unprepared for the weather. They had to import snow removal equipment from the northern panhandle to tackle the problem.

I don't know how a bigger budget helps get to bare pavement if states in northern climes that frequently see single-digit or below-zero temps are using the same melting agents that don't work in Kentucky at that temperature.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

J N Winkler

Quote from: hbelkins on December 30, 2022, 09:52:36 PMI don't know how a bigger budget helps get to bare pavement if states in northern climes that frequently see single-digit or below-zero temps are using the same melting agents that don't work in Kentucky at that temperature.

There is no magic state DOTs have further north that KyTC doesn't have access to.  And while they are better resourced for winter maintenance, it is very easy to get behind the eight ball through some combination of bad luck, bad timing, and bad decisions.  The 50-mile closure of I-95 in Virginia happened partly because traffic was heavy as commuters tried unsuccessfully to get out ahead of a blizzard that had already arrived, so snow packed and turned into ice, and the time to clear a single lane-mile skyrocketed to the point the plowing crews on duty had no hope of catching up before hundreds of vehicles were stranded.

As for the specific problem of getting to bare pavement in subzero temperatures, you simply don't expect melting agents to work.  Mechanical removal through repeated plowing becomes your only option.  This is a lot easier when the snow falls as powder and stays in that state, traffic is light, and bright daylight comes back soon enough to help melt areas where plowing has reduced the albedo.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Road Hog

Just clearing the pavement makes for a super quick rebound. I always shovel out the short driveway to my garage and my sidewalks and it's clear as a bell as soon as the sun comes back out.

SEWIGuy

#20
Quote from: hbelkins on December 30, 2022, 09:52:36 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 30, 2022, 02:11:14 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 29, 2022, 02:30:31 PMWhat do other states use to melt snow and ice, especially those in New England and the upper midwest where they're used to temps hovering around 0? This has to be something that North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Maine deal with several times a year. How do they clear their roads?

They use basically the same equipment, materials, and techniques as states further south.  Winter maintenance budgets are larger and there are some differences in underlying infrastructure provision (e.g., more extensive RWIS sensor networks, blade up/blade down markers on guardrails and other roadside obstacles), but generally speaking, pretty much every state DOT tries to operate a bare pavement policy for the upper echelons of its road hierarchy.  Whether it can do so hinges on variables specific to each storm.

It is often said that Southern states are more likely to have problems with winter precipitation falling as ice, but there are plenty of examples of systematic breakdowns in the North due to heavy accumulations.  Besides Buffalo in the last week, Pennsylvania had a storm in February 2007 that coated Interstates with six inches of ice, and just last January about 50 miles of I-95 in Virginia had to close because of a popup blizzard.

Sometime in the late 2000s, the Dallas area got hit with a snow and ice storm right around the time they were hosting the Super Bowl. My wife was in the area for a related event and she said the roads were atrocious. Dallas/Ft. Worth were completely unprepared for the weather. They had to import snow removal equipment from the northern panhandle to tackle the problem.

I don't know how a bigger budget helps get to bare pavement if states in northern climes that frequently see single-digit or below-zero temps are using the same melting agents that don't work in Kentucky at that temperature.


Bigger budgets helps with the frequency of the storms. Someone mentioned their winter in St. Louis, but I lived in Terre Haute, IN one winter where the side streets were never cleared or treated. And it was terrible even though it was a type of winter that I was used to being from Wisconsin. The city had enough plows for the major streets, and the state took care of the highways, but the rural portions of the county were basically on their own.

But I also think you are exaggerating how cold it actually gets. Rarely will it get so cold that melting agents are ineffective for more than a few days. There are exceptions of course - January 2014 was so snowy and cold that we had packed snow on the streets for weeks. We just had to deal with it.

J N Winkler

Quote from: Road Hog on December 31, 2022, 03:55:36 AMJust clearing the pavement makes for a super quick rebound. I always shovel out the short driveway to my garage and my sidewalks and it's clear as a bell as soon as the sun comes back out.

And this additional melting and drying due to daylight occurs even when temperatures are well below freezing.  In the last snowstorm we had days in the single digits with winds out of the north at 30 MPH, and trace snow still disappeared completely from freshly shoveled areas of our driveway that were in sun.

It's all about albedo reduction, people.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

jeffandnicole

For the most part, the basic process is fairly simple.  The main melting agent is sodium chloride (rock salt).  At lower temperatures, liquid calcium chloride solution is added to the salt to increase its effectiveness.

The treatment, and frequency of treatment, of the roads is what matters more.  Getting brine out there before the storm (if it's not going to rain first) helps delay the inevitable sticking to the roads.  But once snow/ice starts sticking, frequent spreading of salt and heavier spreads are really all that can be done.  If a truck does an occasional pass, or spreads a minimum quantity of salt, the roads are going to freeze. 

The colder the temps, the harder it is to break up that accumulated snow and ice.

It's a bit counter-intuitive, but traffic also assists with the clearing. They tell you to stay off the roads when conditions are bad, but traffic helps improve the conditions of the road.  Once there's snow and ice on the road, we can spread that salt, but it's mostly going to lay on top of the snow and ice.  When there's traffic, those tires help pound the salt into the snow and ice, and that greatly assists with the clearing of the snow/ice.  Those vehicles right behind a salt spreader are going to get the worst of it - if they're too close, they're going to get beaned with salt.  And the roads are still going to be covered with ice and snow.  Give it about 15 minutes, and traffic in that same area will have a much clearer ride because the salt has been mixed with the ice and snow due to traffic.

Sun strength helps as well.  Road clearing in December and January is tougher than February and March.



jeffandnicole

I'm not doing snow removal this year, choosing to sleep in overnight vs having to be on the roads overnight.  But, I did it for 20 years.  I've seen quite a bit.  I've seen what works.  What doesn't work.  Good days.  Bad days.  Complaints by the crew leader, only to be chewed out an hour later because conditions changed dramatically.

I can have the most perfect road condition, but if a snow squall comes thru and I'm at the opposite end of my route, there's nothing I can do until I make it up there.

Public GPS locations of trucks is often a mistake in my opinion.  We're assigned specific routes.  If someone complains there's a truck on Road A near an issue on Road B, they won't readily take the truck off Road A because that road can quickly become an issue.  The crew on Road B will get there; it just won't be instantaneously.

On a road with houses and businesses, I can guarantee you two things:  1)  Go too slow, and the traffic behind you gets pissed you're not going fast enough.  2) Go too fast, and the residents along that road have the DOT numbers programmed in their phones to call to say their house and cars and kids and mailboxes are getting hit with flying slush.

Truck conditions are another issue.  Plowing snow and ice is probably the most stress a truck can be put under.  Snow is heavy.  Very heavy.  Salt is corrosive.  Very corrosive.  Vehicles are not made for either.   They will break down.  They will get clogged.  Last year when Texas experienced a location of a massive crash on an icy road, I could see something many won't consider:  The salt spreader had temporarily become jammed in that location, and salt didn't spread out.  The only way to fix that is by stopping, eliminating the problem, but then having to loop around, sometimes several miles, to get back to the area that was missed.  During that time, problems can occur.  Backing up usually isn't an option, especially if there's traffic on the road.

Clearing snow and ice takes time.  There's no other way around it.

Dirt Roads

Not sure about all of North Carolina, but around here NCDOT puts down brine a few days before a predicted snow storm.  The application tends to be in narrow stripes (usually seven) of brine per lane, such that when it dries, you have seven continuous salt stripes about 2 inches wide.  Sometimes you will see where the sprayer had to change lanes and they will eventually come back and complete the missing sections.  If the weather holds out longer (rarely), NCDOT might have extra time to get out on a few of the local roads with a brine application just as the storm is near.

Invariably, the early part of the storm is more rain than snow.  If the rain becomes heavy, we lose most of the snow-melting effect of the brine stripes before the snow sticks.  NCDOT tends to be ready to spread salt on the Interstates and some major thoroughfares, but the rest of the local roads usually have to wait out until warm weather.  After a heavy snow, NCDOT does come out several times to scrape, and even the least used backroads get scraped.  After the meltoff, NCDOT is really good at finding the "shady spots" and putting down sand or sometimes road salt on icy curves that are going to catch the locals off-guard (ergo, the ones that never drive in snow).  Just west of here, the folks are much more likely to get out and drive in snow/ice, so you don't see nearly as much of the "shady spot" applications on the local roads (even though we are in the same District 7).



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