Is Countertrolling a Troll The Answer

Started by roadman65, March 08, 2023, 03:25:05 PM

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hbelkins

Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM

Yes. This is what I want. We're not Twitter Usenet/misc.transport.road, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.

Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.

Might as well give that deceased equine another swat...  :bigass:


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.


kphoger

Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.

I knew I'd hear from you eventually.  ;)

As I said, I don't favor giving someone the boot because of their opinions or assertions–that is to say, their voice.  But that's not the same as giving someone the boot because of their behavior.

It's like the difference between getting kicked out of a college course because you disagree with the professor and being kicked out because you were repeatedly disruptive in class.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

roadman65

Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM

Yes. This is what I want. We're not Twitter Usenet/misc.transport.road, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.

Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.

Might as well give that deceased equine another swat...  :bigass:

You should have supported Bugo’s forum when he had it.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Rothman



Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM

Yes. This is what I want. We're not Twitter Usenet/misc.transport.road, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.

Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.

Might as well give that deceased equine another swat...  :bigass:

Ugh.  I remember the huge outline hierarchy in UseNet on MTR when the trolls got going.  Yuk.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM

Yes. This is what I want. We're not Twitter Usenet/misc.transport.road, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.

Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.

Might as well give that deceased equine another swat...  :bigass:
Something I agree with HBelkins on!
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

JayhawkCO

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 17, 2023, 03:40:19 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM

Yes. This is what I want. We're not Twitter Usenet/misc.transport.road, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.

Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.

Might as well give that deceased equine another swat...  :bigass:
Something I agree with HBelkins on!

Free speech absolutism is not the panacea you think it is.

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 17, 2023, 04:32:59 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 17, 2023, 03:40:19 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on March 17, 2023, 10:41:25 AM

Yes. This is what I want. We're not Twitter Usenet/misc.transport.road, we're not obligated to allow everyone to join. We want to be open to all, but if you harm the overall forum, you're out.

Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum. I think all voices should be given an opportunity to be heard, and the decision on whether to hear them or not should lie with the listener.

Might as well give that deceased equine another swat...  :bigass:
Something I agree with HBelkins on!

Free speech absolutism is not the panacea you think it is.
Ok I don't take it as far as HB. I think that things like racism and homophobia should be taken down, but other stuff should be fine.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

kphoger

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 17, 2023, 04:56:37 PM
Ok I don't take it as far as HB. I think that things like racism and homophobia should be taken down, but other stuff should be fine.

I don't think racism or homophobia should be taken down unless the post in question is abusive towards someone else.  Simply stating one's beliefs, no matter how bad, shouldn't be reprimanded unless it's a forbidden topic.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Rothman

Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 05:00:30 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 17, 2023, 04:56:37 PM
Ok I don't take it as far as HB. I think that things like racism and homophobia should be taken down, but other stuff should be fine.

I don't think racism or homophobia should be taken down unless the post in question is abusive towards someone else.  Simply stating one's beliefs, no matter how bad, shouldn't be reprimanded unless it's a forbidden topic.

Racism and homophobia are inherently abusive towards someone else.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kphoger

Maybe better wording on my part would have been "directed at someone else".
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Rothman

Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 05:03:44 PM
Maybe better wording on my part would have been "directed at someone else".
So...general racism and homophobia are tolerable...

I know the idea is that simply shunning racists or homophobes doesn't help them to stop being such, but this forum isn't the place for such rehabilitation.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Scott5114

Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 05:03:44 PM
Maybe better wording on my part would have been "directed at someone else".

Thing is, this forum is diverse enough that nearly any form of bigotry will be seen by a member of the group (race, sexual orientation, gender identity, whatever) it is targeted to. At that point it is directed toward them, and why should we make members of our forum have to choose between putting up with that or leaving the forum?

Put another way, if some guy writes "Everyone who lives in Wichita, Kansas is a sucker", that isn't worded so that it's "directed at" you and Jonathan. But yet there's no way you would read that and not come to the conclusion that guy thinks you're a sucker. Now substitute that for something that's a whole lot hateful than calling someone a sucker and you begin to see the problem.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Scott5114

Quote from: hbelkins on March 17, 2023, 01:37:46 PM
Which is why I will always prefer MTR to any moderated forum.

I don't believe this, considering you post here and not on MTR. Why don't you post on MTR? Because the signal to noise ratio is too low. Which is because there's nobody there that can remove noise.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

kalvado

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:18:54 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 17, 2023, 05:03:44 PM
Maybe better wording on my part would have been "directed at someone else".

Thing is, this forum is diverse enough that nearly any form of bigotry will be seen by a member of the group (race, sexual orientation, gender identity, whatever) it is targeted to. At that point it is directed toward them, and why should we make members of our forum have to choose between putting up with that or leaving the forum?

Put another way, if some guy writes "Everyone who lives in Wichita, Kansas is a sucker", that isn't worded so that it's "directed at" you and Jonathan. But yet there's no way you would read that and not come to the conclusion that guy thinks you're a sucker. Now substitute that for something that's a whole lot hateful than calling someone a sucker and you begin to see the problem.
How about Illinois is flat?
Or people in XYZ cannot drive?

Scott5114

Quote from: kalvado on March 17, 2023, 07:33:24 PM
How about Illinois is flat?
Or people in XYZ cannot drive?

I hope you don't actually think those things are as hateful as ethnic slurs.

(Actually, isn't that the whole reason "Illinois is flat" was funny in the first place? Because there isn't actually anything bad about your state being flat, so it was funny that Lord Carhorn was reacting the way he did?)
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Max Rockatansky

"Illinois is flat"  came to be because Carhorn professed the opposite to be true despite all evidence presented to him.  Had it been even a slightly rational poster involved it never would have took off like it did. 

kalvado

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:35:59 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 17, 2023, 07:33:24 PM
How about Illinois is flat?
Or people in XYZ cannot drive?

I hope you don't actually think those things are as hateful as ethnic slurs.

(Actually, isn't that the whole reason "Illinois is flat" was funny in the first place? Because there isn't actually anything bad about your state being flat, so it was funny that Lord Carhorn was reacting the way he did?)
The problem IMHO is that you try to draw bright lines where discretion is really needed.
Direct slurs are apparently wrong, but there are much more nuanced cases. For me, the intentions of one side and the perception of the other side may be more important than the vocabulary in use.

1995hoo

It's somewhat striking to me that HighwayStar, who has been relatively quiet for a while, has suddenly reappeared right after MMM was banned.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2023, 10:32:23 PM
It's somewhat striking to me that HighwayStar, who has been relatively quiet for a while, has suddenly reappeared right after MMM was banned.
No he reappeared before MMM was banned.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

Scott5114

Quote from: kalvado on March 17, 2023, 09:57:57 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:35:59 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 17, 2023, 07:33:24 PM
How about Illinois is flat?
Or people in XYZ cannot drive?

I hope you don't actually think those things are as hateful as ethnic slurs.

(Actually, isn't that the whole reason "Illinois is flat" was funny in the first place? Because there isn't actually anything bad about your state being flat, so it was funny that Lord Carhorn was reacting the way he did?)
The problem IMHO is that you try to draw bright lines where discretion is really needed.
Direct slurs are apparently wrong, but there are much more nuanced cases. For me, the intentions of one side and the perception of the other side may be more important than the vocabulary in use.

What this seems to overlook is that AARoads is not the only website in the world. If you want to discuss one of the very few topics we don't allow discussion of here, like religion, there are places to have that discussion. You just can't have it here.

Same goes for a nuanced discussion of racial relations. I agree that it's possible. I don't want to have to keep checking on it to make sure it doesn't stop being nuanced, and start being hateful, though. The effort that sort of management requires is justified if we're talking about something on-topic, like a contentious road project, or something like induced demand. But it's not if it has nothing to do with roads. I don't think any of our staff signed up for that job; we're roadgeeks, not diplomats.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

jakeroot

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:18:54 PM
Put another way, if some guy writes "Everyone who lives in Wichita, Kansas is a sucker", that isn't worded so that it's "directed at" you and Jonathan. But yet there's no way you would read that and not come to the conclusion that guy thinks you're a sucker.

That might be the conclusion they come to, but who are we to say how they should feel about it?

Scott5114

Quote from: jakeroot on March 17, 2023, 10:52:24 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:18:54 PM
Put another way, if some guy writes "Everyone who lives in Wichita, Kansas is a sucker", that isn't worded so that it's "directed at" you and Jonathan. But yet there's no way you would read that and not come to the conclusion that guy thinks you're a sucker.

That might be the conclusion they come to, but who are we to say how they should feel about it?

This kind of misses the point, in my opinion. Sure, Kyle might just laugh off being called a sucker and carry on about his day. But there's also the chance that he'll say "Well, gee, if I can just be called a sucker and everyone's okay with it, I don't feel very welcome here, so I'm going to quit posting."

If someone is willing to leave the forum because they are not allowed to call anyone a sucker, chances are they're not the sort of person worth having on the forum to begin with, since they clearly don't know how to interact with others in a polite, non-abrasive way.

So given the choice between "leave the post up and let the sucker-caller potentially drive the alleged sucker off the forum" or "delete the post and potentially drive the sucker-caller off the forum", I will err on the side of the latter. And indeed we've had some people leave over decisions like that, but I feel like the forum is a better place for it.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 10:51:17 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 17, 2023, 09:57:57 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:35:59 PM
Quote from: kalvado on March 17, 2023, 07:33:24 PM
How about Illinois is flat?
Or people in XYZ cannot drive?

I hope you don't actually think those things are as hateful as ethnic slurs.

(Actually, isn't that the whole reason "Illinois is flat" was funny in the first place? Because there isn't actually anything bad about your state being flat, so it was funny that Lord Carhorn was reacting the way he did?)
The problem IMHO is that you try to draw bright lines where discretion is really needed.
Direct slurs are apparently wrong, but there are much more nuanced cases. For me, the intentions of one side and the perception of the other side may be more important than the vocabulary in use.

What this seems to overlook is that AARoads is not the only website in the world. If you want to discuss one of the very few topics we don't allow discussion of here, like religion, there are places to have that discussion. You just can't have it here.

Same goes for a nuanced discussion of racial relations. I agree that it's possible. I don't want to have to keep checking on it to make sure it doesn't stop being nuanced, and start being hateful, though. The effort that sort of management requires is justified if we're talking about something on-topic, like a contentious road project, or something like induced demand. But it's not if it has nothing to do with roads. I don't think any of our staff signed up for that job; we're roadgeeks, not diplomats.
I think part of the reason is that the mod team is super dwindled at this point. A lot of the admins are barely active on the forum anymore, and it seems like you do almost all of the modding at this point, with JN Winkler and the other Scott doing a bit. There used to be like 5-6 mods doing active modding.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

hotdogPi

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2023, 10:32:23 PM
It's somewhat striking to me that HighwayStar, who has been relatively quiet for a while, has suddenly reappeared right after MMM was banned.

HighwayStar reappeared before MMM's ban, not after.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

SectorZ

Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 11:29:08 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 17, 2023, 10:52:24 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2023, 07:18:54 PM
Put another way, if some guy writes "Everyone who lives in Wichita, Kansas is a sucker", that isn't worded so that it's "directed at" you and Jonathan. But yet there's no way you would read that and not come to the conclusion that guy thinks you're a sucker.

That might be the conclusion they come to, but who are we to say how they should feel about it?

This kind of misses the point, in my opinion. Sure, Kyle might just laugh off being called a sucker and carry on about his day. But there's also the chance that he'll say "Well, gee, if I can just be called a sucker and everyone's okay with it, I don't feel very welcome here, so I'm going to quit posting."

If someone is willing to leave the forum because they are not allowed to call anyone a sucker, chances are they're not the sort of person worth having on the forum to begin with, since they clearly don't know how to interact with others in a polite, non-abrasive way.

So given the choice between "leave the post up and let the sucker-caller potentially drive the alleged sucker off the forum" or "delete the post and potentially drive the sucker-caller off the forum", I will err on the side of the latter. And indeed we've had some people leave over decisions like that, but I feel like the forum is a better place for it.

Now you know I feel as a cyclist here with some of the people that pull the "you people all..." routine. They know who they are (and one is actively being discussed in this thread).



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