Houston: Grand Parkway segment B, construction starts in 2026

Started by MaxConcrete, January 22, 2017, 12:04:28 AM

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ski-man

Quote from: Bobby5280 on May 23, 2023, 11:57:36 PM
I don't understand how Clearview would be costing billions on its own. Not unless they're buying literally hundreds of thousands of licenses. Otherwise a typeface isn't going to make much of any difference with on-going highway sign costs. Highway sign faces have a limited life span. The type III retroreflective sheeting backgrounds will degrade noticeably in 7-10 years or even sooner in some regions. The "engineer's grade" reflective lettering applied to many big green signs is cracking and starting to flake off the sign by around year 5. Any state DOT is (hopefully) going to have an on-going program to replace the graphics on sign structures as needed.
I was in Houston & Austin earlier this year, and was just surprised at how bad some of the overhead signs looked with peeling front. Thought it looked pretty bad.


DJStephens

#51
Quote from: Bobby5280 on May 23, 2023, 11:57:36 PM
I don't understand how Clearview would be costing billions on its own. Not unless they're buying literally hundreds of thousands of licenses. Otherwise a typeface isn't going to make much of any difference with on-going highway sign costs. Highway sign faces have a limited life span. The type III retroreflective sheeting backgrounds will degrade noticeably in 7-10 years or even sooner in some regions. The "engineer's grade" reflective lettering applied to many big green signs is cracking and starting to flake off the sign by around year 5. Any state DOT is (hopefully) going to have an on-going program to replace the graphics on sign structures as needed.
A bunch of the extra visual frills on retaining walls, bridge structures, etc are nice. But when the state DOT is being forced to incorporate 11' wide lanes into a freeway project's permanent design the frills are definitely a misplaced priority. I'm guessing the visual enhancements are done to make people who live and work in the immediate area of that project more happy with the finished result.
By "billions" on clearview, was stating belief of cost, of all signage erected since this change to this font in the '00 timeframe.   All 34-36 districts.  Am of belief it was simply not needed.   A lot of perfectly fine condition FHWA signage was taken down and replaced, unneccesarilly. 
As for "frills" have noticed all sorts of landscape elements installed.  Terraces.  Steel Stars. Excessive inlays and elements. Quite a bit of it is visually overwhelming, and unneccessary.
A good deal of regressive design has been applied with interchange replacements on the 10 corridor in the El Paso District.  Mainly lack of vertical, and some horizontal curvature improvements.   Failure to "cut down" hills where it would have been obvious, and beneficial. 
Overall, the last 25-27 years have been very piecemeal.   

Bobby5280

Quote from: DJStephensBy "billions" on clearview, was stating belief of cost, of all signage erected since this change to this font in the '00 timeframe.   All 34-36 districts.  Am of belief it was simply not needed.   A lot of perfectly fine condition FHWA signage was taken down and replaced, unneccesarilly.

I know New Mexico is notoriously cheap with a lot of its highway maintenance and improvement projects, despite decorative frills included on some of the upgrade projects. So I would be surprised if, during the switch to Clearview, they did more than simply replacing the graphics on many existing sign faces. That's far less expensive that unnecessarily replacing entire sign structures. These graphics replaced have to happen at least once every several years, if not more often given the quality of "engineers grade" white reflective vinyl lettering. Routed letters with button copy can last many years. This reflective cut vinyl does not.

Here in Oklahoma much of the shift to Clearview was phased in -with new graphics on existing sign faces. Not entirely new sign structures. The only instances where I've seen ODOT erect new sign structures is on sections of freeways that were completely re-built with new pavement and maybe with additional lanes added. The old, outdated structures get replaced then.

rte66man

Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 04, 2023, 06:03:21 PM
Quote from: DJStephensBy "billions" on clearview, was stating belief of cost, of all signage erected since this change to this font in the '00 timeframe.   All 34-36 districts.  Am of belief it was simply not needed.   A lot of perfectly fine condition FHWA signage was taken down and replaced, unneccesarilly.

I know New Mexico is notoriously cheap with a lot of its highway maintenance and improvement projects, despite decorative frills included on some of the upgrade projects. So I would be surprised if, during the switch to Clearview, they did more than simply replacing the graphics on many existing sign faces. That's far less expensive that unnecessarily replacing entire sign structures. These graphics replaced have to happen at least once every several years, if not more often given the quality of "engineers grade" white reflective vinyl lettering. Routed letters with button copy can last many years. This reflective cut vinyl does not.

Here in Oklahoma much of the shift to Clearview was phased in -with new graphics on existing sign faces. Not entirely new sign structures. The only instances where I've seen ODOT erect new sign structures is on sections of freeways that were completely re-built with new pavement and maybe with additional lanes added. The old, outdated structures get replaced then.

When they did new signs for I-35 in OKC, they erected new monotube structures.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

Bobby5280

Quote from: rte66manWhen they did new signs for I-35 in OKC, they erected new monotube structures.

Was that on a section where they did other improvements to the roadway? Typically ODOT installs new monotube sign structures as part of an overall highway improvement project, such as building a new interchange or replacing the road bed and/or widening it. ODOT doesn't always replace existing sign structures on these projects either. I can point to examples of it on I-44 South of OKC. ODOT has simply replaced the sign face graphics and nothing else.

The notion the Clearview typeface would force a DOT to replace entire sign structures is just plain silly.

rte66man

Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 07, 2023, 02:00:48 PM
Quote from: rte66manWhen they did new signs for I-35 in OKC, they erected new monotube structures.

Was that on a section where they did other improvements to the roadway? Typically ODOT installs new monotube sign structures as part of an overall highway improvement project, such as building a new interchange or replacing the road bed and/or widening it. ODOT doesn't always replace existing sign structures on these projects either. I can point to examples of it on I-44 South of OKC. ODOT has simply replaced the sign face graphics and nothing else.

The notion the Clearview typeface would force a DOT to replace entire sign structures is just plain silly.

They did a dowel bar retrofit about that time.

Was in Tulsa over the weekend and noticed that US412 west from downtown to Sand Springs had all monotube sign assemblies.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

Bobby5280

The new monotube structures on that part of US-412 are related to the new interchange with the new segment of the Gilcrease Expressway. Funny enough, the type on those signs is set in FHWA Series Gothic. There are still lots of the old truss style overhead sign structures across the state, many of them pre-dating Clearview.

TXtoNJ

Why does every thread derail into something going on in Oklahoma? Jeez

MaxConcrete

H-GAC (the regional planning council) approved plans for work on section B to begin in 2026.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/transportation/article/grand-parkway-alvin-league-city-txdot-18267055.php

QuoteI-45 to Alvin segment of Grand Parkway set for late 2026 construction start

Portions of the Grand Parkway through Galveston County are scheduled to begin in slightly more than three years, as state highway officials cue up construction for Houston's third outer ring.

Texas Department of Transportation officials said work on segments of Interstate 45 in League City to south of Alvin is planned for late 2026 or early 2027, entirely funded by borrowing against future toll revenues. The Houston-Galveston Area Council's Transportation Policy on Friday amended its four-year construction plan, organizing all of the projects for the tollway and interchanges at I-45 and Texas 35 into fiscal 2026.

The timing gives TxDOT officials time to acquire rights of way, prepare for the relocation of utilities and prepare the final design, said Varuna Singh, deputy district engineer for TxDOT's Houston office.

The project includes two key connections, at I-45 and Texas 35, creating a new route west of the interstate.

The work is only part of Segment B of the tollway, which has been divided to allow for faster construction to Alvin. The portion in Brazoria County — where the county still retains the option to build the tollway themselves west of FM 2403  — would likely come later.

The I-45-to-Alvin project, which based on current estimates would cost $656.7 million, will likely be packaged as one large job for a contractor that will finish the design and then build the tollway, Singh said. It is among the most sought-after highway connections in the Houston area.

www.DFWFreeways.com
www.HoustonFreeways.com

thisdj78

Quote from: MaxConcrete on August 01, 2023, 09:06:24 AM
H-GAC (the regional planning council) approved plans for work on section B to begin in 2026.
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/transportation/article/grand-parkway-alvin-league-city-txdot-18267055.php

Have you seen any updated schematics of where Segment B intersects with I-45? Really curious to see how they build that. That will likely provide clues on how they will build Segment A (if they ever do).

jgb191

I don't like that all these curves along the proposed southern arc.  Why not keep it as straight as possible?  Like the Sam Tollway/Beltway 8: with the exception of Jersey Village, there are not a lot of curves around the beltway.  The segment between I-45 and TX-288 looks too winding and awkward; maybe straighten it out be keeping it parallelling FM-1462 between Alvin and TX-288.
We're so far south that we're not even considered "The South"

thisdj78

Quote from: jgb191 on August 01, 2023, 01:25:30 PM
I don't like that all these curves along the proposed southern arc.  Why not keep it as straight as possible?  Like the Sam Tollway/Beltway 8: with the exception of Jersey Village, there are not a lot of curves around the beltway.  The segment between I-45 and TX-288 looks too winding and awkward; maybe straighten it out be keeping it parallelling FM-1462 between Alvin and TX-288.

Acquiring land for freeways (on new terrain) is a lot different today vs. 30-40 years ago. Case in point, look at the new I-69 in Indiana between Bloomington and Evansville compared to the existing I-69 north of Indianapolis.

Chris

According to the Houston freeways book, much of the land for freeways was even donated by landowners back in the day.

thisdj78

Quote from: Chris on August 01, 2023, 04:09:47 PM
According to the Houston freeways book, much of the land for freeways was even donated by landowners back in the day.

I could see that. There was a lot of pride in the interstate freeway system being built out in the 50s/60s. Of course that all changed with the freeway revolts in the 70s.

TXtoNJ

Quote from: thisdj78 on August 01, 2023, 11:32:49 PM
Quote from: Chris on August 01, 2023, 04:09:47 PM
According to the Houston freeways book, much of the land for freeways was even donated by landowners back in the day.

I could see that. There was a lot of pride in the interstate freeway system being built out in the 50s/60s. Of course that all changed with the freeway revolts in the 70s.

Through routes directly benefited rural landowners. Suburban distributor routes do not.

CoreySamson

Quote from: jgb191 on August 01, 2023, 01:25:30 PM
I don't like that all these curves along the proposed southern arc.  Why not keep it as straight as possible?  Like the Sam Tollway/Beltway 8: with the exception of Jersey Village, there are not a lot of curves around the beltway.  The segment between I-45 and TX-288 looks too winding and awkward; maybe straighten it out be keeping it parallelling FM-1462 between Alvin and TX-288.
The part in and south of Alvin in particular that contributes to the wonkiness parallels TX 35 before splitting off south of the Chocolate Bayou bridge. My guess is TxDOT didn't want to have to build a highway through all the homes between TX 35 and FM 1462 on the south side of Alvin. South of the bayou, there is a lot less resistance; I would imagine it's a lot easier to just parallel 35 (which needs upgrading anyway) for that stretch than to tear down tons of homes and county road connections in that area.

Meanwhile, the part of 35 in and through Alvin has had the freeway ROW set aside for a long time now, so it makes sense to route the new highway on the designated ROW. It's not as straight as it ideally could've been, but it'll probably be fine IRL.
Buc-ee's and QuikTrip fanboy. Clincher of FM roads. Proponent of the TX U-turn.

My Route Log
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Now on mobrule and Travel Mapping!

thisdj78


bwana39

Quote from: DJStephens on May 23, 2023, 11:24:53 PM
Statewide, billions on clearview, landscaping and architectural frills.  Where are the watchdogs and whistleblowers?

Can you enumerate what you are calling these boondoggles?

Yes, clearview license is not free. There is landscaping being done. There are some architectural flourishes on some bridge pillars and other concrete.

All the signing, landscaping, and architectural add-ons MAY add up to a billion (or two) over time. The biggest landscaping costs right now are mowing the right of ways and the ongoing removal of trees that have grown in the ROWs for decades. These are not "add-ons." The tree trimming / removal is a safety issue and is actually to fully meet FHWA specs for interstates. The limited flowers and other decorative plants really are negligible in costs. Contouring the roadbed and ROW is not to be confused with decorative landscaping.

The architectural flourishes might cost as much as $100 a piece. Maybe. Probably less. It simply is a function of building the forms.
All in all TXDOT goes overboard in sign replacement, but it isn't clearview that is the big cost.

Texas DOES spend billions making freeway intersections be more free flowing. The 3 & 4 level stacks don't come cheap. While on the surface, much of the newer cable stayed bridges look decorative, it is almost all functional*. 

Clearview. Some of you guys hate it. In times past there have been thousand post threads on here about it. Some hate it because the licensure is expensive and adds not insignificant cost. Some feel that even if it is marginally better, that the added cost exceeds any value. Others of you just do not like the font PERIOD.


*There are exceptions. The Dallas "signature bridges" are almost totally decorative, but there were significant civic donations for their building. The caps over subsurface freeways are generally paid for by local sources: the city / county governments; often through donations. The whole removal of the Pierce Elevated is a boondoggle that TxDOT is paying for almost completely.



Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

The Ghostbuster

Now that Segment B has a construction date of 2026 (with a planned completion date of 2030 or so), does Segment C have a construction date yet?

MaxConcrete

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 25, 2023, 11:15:51 AM
Now that Segment B has a construction date of 2026 (with a planned completion date of 2030 or so), does Segment C have a construction date yet?

I don't think a timeline has been established. The Fort Bend County Toll Road Authority (not TxDOT) has authority to build it, and they have been studying it for years. FBCTRA appears to be defining the final alignment. See the separate thread about the Fort Bend Parkway for the alignment near the Fort Bend Parkway.

A document for this month's board meeting of the GPTRA lists the cost for section C around $1.2 billion. ROW alone is around $351 million. This will be a very heavy lift for Fort Bend County. In fact, I don't know if they can actually get it done, considering their ambitious (and expensive) plans for extending the Fort Bend Parkway and Westpark Tollway.

My view is that TxDOT is going to need to take over segment C if work is going to start before 2030.
www.DFWFreeways.com
www.HoustonFreeways.com

Chris

FBCTRA has quite a hostile policy towards drivers from outside of the region with their 'everyone without a TxTAG is in violation' approach.

Operating a vehicle on any toll road operated by the Fort Bend County Toll Road Authority without a valid electronic toll tag is a violation and can result in a citation, toll violation notice, and additional fines and fees.

https://www.fbctra.com/toll-roads/#tollroads

E-ZPass is not an accepted toll tag and they do not offer pay-by-mail or any other form of payment.

I wonder if this kind of approach would fly on the beltway of one of the largest cities in the U.S. So far they seem to be getting away with this.

Ellie

Quote from: Chris on September 25, 2023, 04:28:30 PM
FBCTRA has quite a hostile policy towards drivers from outside of the region with their 'everyone without a TxTAG is in violation' approach.

Operating a vehicle on any toll road operated by the Fort Bend County Toll Road Authority without a valid electronic toll tag is a violation and can result in a citation, toll violation notice, and additional fines and fees.

https://www.fbctra.com/toll-roads/#tollroads

E-ZPass is not an accepted toll tag and they do not offer pay-by-mail or any other form of payment.

I wonder if this kind of approach would fly on the beltway of one of the largest cities in the U.S. So far they seem to be getting away with this.

Their "violations" only cost $2.50 in additional fees if you pay within 30 days. Houston and especially Fort Bend County is kind of out-of-the-way; someone doing a cross-country drive is unlikely to get hit with a FBCTRA toll.

thisdj78




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