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Ohio

Started by iBallasticwolf2, August 29, 2015, 08:18:14 PM

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seicer

It's more detailed in the study (PDF). The alignment utilizes some roads for much of the proposed truck bypass.


westerninterloper

Quote from: thenetwork on January 15, 2025, 08:31:31 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 15, 2025, 07:56:36 AMyoungstown is another city i argue should never have had any downtown freeways in the first place.

When the downtown loop was envisioned and gradually built, downtown Youngstown was still healthy with retail, the University, and most importantly -- the steel mills which nearly surrounded the area.  The factories were the reason why they needed all the freeways in the area -- mostly to keep the factory traffic from choking up the city streets.

Unfortunately, when the "loop" was completed in the mid-70s, the steel mill industry collapsed and ultimately closed while the malls in the outlying areas of Youngstown pretty much took what was left of the downtown retail. And practically overnight, the freeway loop became overkill for the town.

Population projections, like most, anticipated continued growth for Ohio's cities and metro areas. I haven't seen any predictions from the 1950s or early 1960s that Ohio's metros would stagnate and lose population. They were building this infrastructure for a city twice the size, which they anticipated we'd reach right about now. Can you imagine Ohio's cities with *twice* their 1950 city populations today? Metro areas 3 or 4 times as large? The only city that achieved that was Columbus.

Imagine today's interstate infrastructure built for cities this size:

2020 Midwest City Populations had doubled since 1950:
Cleveland: 1,900,000 (would be 5th largest today, between Houston and Phoenix)
Cincinnati: 1,100,000 (10th largest, below Dallas)
Columbus: 700,000 (it grew faster, currently 913K)
Toledo: 606,000 (Portland, OR; Louisville KY)
Akron: 550,000 (Albuquerque, Tucson)
Dayton: 485,000 (Omaha, Raleigh)
Youngstown: 230,000 (Boise, Norfolk)
Canton: 230,000 (Richmond, VA; Huntsville)
Nostalgia: Indiana's State Religion

thenetwork

Back in 1950:

In the case of Cleveland and Youngstown, nobody expected the steel mills to die off by 1980.

For Akron, nobody expected the tire & rubber companies to move their factories and assembly lines out of their town.

TempoNick

Quote from: westerninterloper on January 17, 2025, 05:12:04 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on January 15, 2025, 08:31:31 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 15, 2025, 07:56:36 AMyoungstown is another city i argue should never have had any downtown freeways in the first place.

When the downtown loop was envisioned and gradually built, downtown Youngstown was still healthy with retail, the University, and most importantly -- the steel mills which nearly surrounded the area.  The factories were the reason why they needed all the freeways in the area -- mostly to keep the factory traffic from choking up the city streets.

Unfortunately, when the "loop" was completed in the mid-70s, the steel mill industry collapsed and ultimately closed while the malls in the outlying areas of Youngstown pretty much took what was left of the downtown retail. And practically overnight, the freeway loop became overkill for the town.

Population projections, like most, anticipated continued growth for Ohio's cities and metro areas. I haven't seen any predictions from the 1950s or early 1960s that Ohio's metros would stagnate and lose population. They were building this infrastructure for a city twice the size, which they anticipated we'd reach right about now. Can you imagine Ohio's cities with *twice* their 1950 city populations today? Metro areas 3 or 4 times as large? The only city that achieved that was Columbus.

Imagine today's interstate infrastructure built for cities this size:

2020 Midwest City Populations had doubled since 1950:
Cleveland: 1,900,000 (would be 5th largest today, between Houston and Phoenix)
Cincinnati: 1,100,000 (10th largest, below Dallas)
Columbus: 700,000 (it grew faster, currently 913K)
Toledo: 606,000 (Portland, OR; Louisville KY)
Akron: 550,000 (Albuquerque, Tucson)
Dayton: 485,000 (Omaha, Raleigh)
Youngstown: 230,000 (Boise, Norfolk)
Canton: 230,000 (Richmond, VA; Huntsville)


Metro population or county population is what counts, not city population. City population is usually an irrelevant statistic when looking at anything from a regional perspective.

westerninterloper

Quote from: TempoNick on January 18, 2025, 04:07:03 PM
Quote from: westerninterloper on January 17, 2025, 05:12:04 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on January 15, 2025, 08:31:31 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 15, 2025, 07:56:36 AMyoungstown is another city i argue should never have had any downtown freeways in the first place.

When the downtown loop was envisioned and gradually built, downtown Youngstown was still healthy with retail, the University, and most importantly -- the steel mills which nearly surrounded the area.  The factories were the reason why they needed all the freeways in the area -- mostly to keep the factory traffic from choking up the city streets.

Unfortunately, when the "loop" was completed in the mid-70s, the steel mill industry collapsed and ultimately closed while the malls in the outlying areas of Youngstown pretty much took what was left of the downtown retail. And practically overnight, the freeway loop became overkill for the town.

Population projections, like most, anticipated continued growth for Ohio's cities and metro areas. I haven't seen any predictions from the 1950s or early 1960s that Ohio's metros would stagnate and lose population. They were building this infrastructure for a city twice the size, which they anticipated we'd reach right about now. Can you imagine Ohio's cities with *twice* their 1950 city populations today? Metro areas 3 or 4 times as large? The only city that achieved that was Columbus.

Imagine today's interstate infrastructure built for cities this size:

2020 Midwest City Populations had doubled since 1950:
Cleveland: 1,900,000 (would be 5th largest today, between Houston and Phoenix)
Cincinnati: 1,100,000 (10th largest, below Dallas)
Columbus: 700,000 (it grew faster, currently 913K)
Toledo: 606,000 (Portland, OR; Louisville KY)
Akron: 550,000 (Albuquerque, Tucson)
Dayton: 485,000 (Omaha, Raleigh)
Youngstown: 230,000 (Boise, Norfolk)
Canton: 230,000 (Richmond, VA; Huntsville)


Metro population or county population is what counts, not city population. City population is usually an irrelevant statistic when looking at anything from a regional perspective.

Since 1980, only two major Ohio metro areas have had any substantive growth:
Cincinnati has added about 500,000 people -- steady growth; and
Columbus has added over a million, and will soon have double its 1980 population.

Every other metro has been flat, and several have lost people.

Maybe from an ecological perspective this could be considered healthy, to have a relatively stable population over the last 40 years?
Nostalgia: Indiana's State Religion

paulthemapguy

Quote from: thenetwork on January 17, 2025, 10:13:39 PMBack in 1950:

In the case of Cleveland and Youngstown, nobody expected the steel mills to die off by 1980.

For Akron, nobody expected the tire & rubber companies to move their factories and assembly lines out of their town.


People should understand that the obsolescence of institutions contributing to the overall success of cities is never planned. It looks like you understand, but many other people out there want to blame cities for sucking at being cities when they slow down or lose population, and it's never that simple.

This whole "what if these slow-growing or shrinking cities doubled in population?" hypothetical might make for a fantastic prompt over in Fictional Highways.
Avatar is the last interesting highway I clinched.
My website! http://www.paulacrossamerica.com Now featuring all of Ohio!
My USA Shield Gallery https://flic.kr/s/aHsmHwJRZk
TM Clinches https://bit.ly/2UwRs4O

National collection status: Every US Route and (fully built) Interstate has a photo now! Just Alaska and Hawaii left!

TempoNick

Quote from: westerninterloper on January 20, 2025, 10:02:08 PMMaybe from an ecological perspective this could be considered healthy, to have a relatively stable population over the last 40 years?

Ohio is or was the 7th most populous state. It is also the 6th or 7th most densely populated state. As far as I'm concerned, we don't need to grow anymore than right where we are, not to mention that thanks to automation we may not need as many bodies as we used to need.

TempoNick

Quote from: paulthemapguy on February 04, 2025, 09:24:16 AMPeople should understand that the obsolescence of institutions contributing to the overall success of cities is never planned. It looks like you understand, but many other people out there want to blame cities for sucking at being cities when they slow down or lose population, and it's never that simple.


People act like a tacky suburban home is meant to last the ages like some Roman building made of stone. Houses really aren't that much different from cars. As they get passed down to new owners, they get progressively older and shïttier. The exception is high-end neighborhoods, but for everything middle class and below, that seems to be the cycle. That's mainly why these cities get old and people move out to something newer and better, if they can afford to.

Rothman

Quote from: TempoNick on February 04, 2025, 08:18:56 PM
Quote from: westerninterloper on January 20, 2025, 10:02:08 PMMaybe from an ecological perspective this could be considered healthy, to have a relatively stable population over the last 40 years?

Ohio is or was the 7th most populous state. It is also the 6th or 7th most densely populated state. As far as I'm concerned, we don't need to grow anymore than right where we are, not to mention that thanks to automation we may not need as many bodies as we used to need.

Eh, 7th overall and 10th by density (destiny? :D):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population_density

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