Ukraine

Started by Chris, March 02, 2022, 11:41:11 AM

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Chris

The overpasses of the Donetsk bypass are known to be used as shelter for artillery barrages.

The wholesale destruction of Ukrainian cities and infrastructure is just astounding. This really is a 'Cold War becomes hot' scenario, only 1,000 kilometers farther east than assumed before 1991.

Mariupol is the largest city to be laid to waste, almost the entire city was destroyed by artillery bombardments. Large amounts of apartment towers have been torn down in the past 6 months. Some have been rebuilt by the Russians though quality is reported to be extremely poor, it's a propaganda stunt.


Road Hog

At the risk of getting too political, Russia will soon have to pick and choose where to send its missiles because they are getting low on supply and Ukraine is enjoying a shootdown rate of over 75 percent. The hypersonic missiles are the only ones Ukraine can't shoot down at the moment. Ukraine is also swatting the slower Iranian drones like flies.

Tom958

Does anyone here know how route numbers are marked in the field in Ukraine? To my surprise, my perusal of major junctions around Kiev indicates that route numbers aren't posted at all-- just the destinations in (I presume) Ukrainian and English. The only exception I found is this map (!) posted at the junction of the Kiev ring road and the highway to Odesa showing alternate routes to the latter. South is at the top even though Odesa is to the right here. It doesn't surprise me that the map uses Ukrainian numbers rather than E 95 for the Odesa highway and E 40 for the ring road, but it does surprise me that no route numbers are included on the big blue signs.

Chris

Route signing was traditionally quite poor. Ukraine has an extensive system of route numbering:

* M-roads, these are international routes and main corridors. M comes from міжнародні автомобільні дороги
* N-roads, these are the national roads. N comes from національні автомобільні дороги. Many maps display them as a Latin 'H', while the Cyrillic н means N.
* R-roads, these are the regional roads. R comes from регіональна автомобільна дорога. Many maps display them as a Latin 'P', while the Cyrillic Р means R.
* T-roads, these are the territorial roads. T comes from територіальні автомобільні дороги

And local roads also appear to be numbered.

Traditionally, the M-roads were the best signed, at least on trailblazers. N-roads were almost never signed, but newer signage does include them. R-roads (P) are also signed on trailblazers and occassionally on directional signage. The T-roads are indicated on newer signage.

P- and T-roads are known to be displayed both on a yellow shield as well as on a blue background.










Tom958

Quote from: Chris on February 11, 2023, 06:59:57 AM










Thanks. Still, though, I can't find anything resembling any of this on Streetview, even at the site of your best photo, on the Naddnipryans'ke Highway headed south from central Kiev: https://goo.gl/maps/Bu1T1yzkRNabN84t7. I am genuinely perplexed.

Wait: Here's one, out in the countryside. This Streetview's from 2020-- the others I've seen are mostly from 2015 or so. Could it be that modern signage didn't start appearing until recently? That's not really believable.

I did find another big map, though.

Chris

Quote from: Tom958 on February 11, 2023, 09:29:41 AMCould it be that modern signage didn't start appearing until recently? That's not really believable.

Recent Ukrainian governments launched the Велике будівництво (big works) programme, which aimed at rapidly modernizing the Ukrainian road system, which mostly dated back to Soviet times and was in very poor condition.

A World Economic Forum survey in 2018 ranked the Ukrainian road network 130 out of 137 countries worldwide, even behind many African countries. Ukraine has a large road network, but most of it had seen no serious investment since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Zelensky and his prime ministers aimed to improve this. Part of the Велике будівництво (big works) programme was not only resurfacing but also a more modern road signage system. The Ukrainian road authority Ukravtodor also began to use social media to let the country know what they're doing. So most of these signed routes only appeared in the field over the past 3 years or so.

Of course, this development was abruptly cut off in February 2022...


Rothman

Heh.  Great Works, I would think would be a better translation.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

J N Winkler

#57
More information can be found here:

Overhaul of direction signing standards in Ukraine

The new direction sign design manual

Roads.org.uk's piece on the new Ukrainian signs

When it was still in the Soviet Union, signing in Ukraine was supposed to conform to the relevant GOST standard and thus match that provided in Russia proper.  The most comprehensive GOST standard dealing with signing was issued in the mid-1970's and has standard alphabets for legend appearing in Cyrillic, Latin, and Georgian script.  The one that currently governs in Russia is thinner and less comprehensive, but does still include Latin characters for major corridors that receive bilingual signing.

Both Russia and Ukraine have autonomous highway agencies (Rosavtodor and Ukravtodor respectively), as well as tendering platforms where public bodies advertise contracts for construction.  I have downloaded design documentation from Russia, which maintains availability in arrears of tender closing (which is far from universal--e.g., in western Europe the Netherlands does, but France and Germany do not).  However, I had not gotten to Ukraine before February 2022.

This sign panel detail, which is pattern-accurate, is pretty typical of Russian signs without Latin legend.  As you can see, the aesthetic is very Soviet--functional without sophistication.



And this one has Russian placenames in Latin transliteration.  (I've seen "Moscow," but otherwise I don't think use of English exonyms is the norm.)



Older Ukrainian signs would have looked similar, as have signs installed by Russians in the areas they have occupied during the present war, in which they have also pointedly omitted Latin transliteration.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

J N Winkler

And just to add:  the Russian phrase for "traffic organization," which forms the usual section title for the part of each construction document package that deals with signing and marking, abbreviates in Cyrillic as ОДД, or ODD.  So there is explicit acknowledgment that our hobby interest is odd.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Rothman

Ah, Rostov.  I lived there for a month in the mid-1990s.  At least back then, I think I saw one bona fide road sign either there or in Volgograd, where I lived for another bunch of months.  In other words, signage was nonexistent.

What we call street blades were actually painted on the side of buildings.  And most looked like citizens painted them themselves.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Scott5114

#60
Oh, hey, so the new mixed-case signs with the Transport-derived font did get posted in the field before the war. I had seen the updated standards book mentioned on some roadgeek website, but never seen photos of any sign actually using it, so I was afraid that the author of the piece I read had misidentified a think piece or bit of roadgeek fantasy for a real standards document.

Given how many signs have been removed and/or destroyed during the war, I would imagine Ukravtodor is in a much better starting place for a widespread signage refresh after the war ends.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Chris

Quote from: Rothman on February 11, 2023, 10:08:59 AM
Heh.  Great Works, I would think would be a better translation.

Probably, though the official government website uses 'bigbud', I think they wanted to differentiate how they were going to upgrade the country; by big construction projects instead of piecemeal projects.

https://bigbud.kmu.gov.ua/

An interesting policy position is to use concrete roads, because it reduces the dependency on imported materials (like oil). This was already policy before the war, as concrete could be produced domestically. Only a very tiny percentage of roads were built in concrete though, some projects in southern Ukraine were finished before the war and they recently completed some new roads in western Ukraine.

Although Ukraine is tied up in a war on the scale of World War II, not the entire male population has been mobilized. They still execute some road projects with local contractors, though I assume the international contractors have left the country. A major project was the new Dnipro Crossing at Kremenchuk, which was done by a Turkish company. Also nearing construction phase was KOD = Київська обхідна дорога, which was the planned beltway around Kyiv.

on_wisconsin

#62
BTW, the newish font used on Ukrainian signs is open source and available here: https://github.com/agentyzmin/Road-UA-Font. Courtesy of the Roads.co.uk site linked above.
"Speed does not kill, suddenly becoming stationary... that's what gets you" - Jeremy Clarkson

Scott5114

Meanwhile, the old font (which is still used in Russia and on new signs in Russian-occupied parts of Ukraine) can be found here: https://github.com/shoorick/russian-road-sign-font
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Tom958

two more strategic-level items:

I didn't notice it on Google Maps, but E 373 looked strikingly smooth on one of the military maps I've seen. Looking more closely, it avoids towns (though some nearby towns have expanded up to and across it) and appears to have a high design speed, suggesting it was built relatively recently. It runs 488 km westward from the northwest corner of Kyiv's main ring road more or less directly toward Lublin, Poland, and thence toward Warsaw and Berlin. It's an efficient enough highway that it's Google's preferred route from Kyiv to Warsaw despite the border post on E 373 currently being closed, requiring a substantial detour.To me, it'd be better if there was a single full motorway from Kyiv to Rivne, then branching toward both lviv and Lublin and Warsaw, but I doubt that that'll ever happen even if the postwar economy is a runaway success.

Also, one video I watched speculated that the Russians would try to take out all the bridges across the Dnipro in the massive air strike that's currently being predicted. While this would certainly be catastrophic, it wouldn't be easy. There are 19 crossings of the Dnipro north of occupied Kherson, five of which are dam crest roads. Most are in the larger cities of Kyiv, Dnipro, and Zaporizhzhia where air defenses are surely located, but I hope some effort is made to protect the others.

Scott5114

Quote from: Tom958 on February 19, 2023, 05:10:54 PM
Also, one video I watched speculated that the Russians would try to take out all the bridges across the Dnipro in the massive air strike that's currently being predicted. While this would certainly be catastrophic, it wouldn't be easy. There are 19 crossings of the Dnipro north of occupied Kherson, five of which are dam crest roads. Most are in the larger cities of Kyiv, Dnipro, and Zaporizhzhia where air defenses are surely located, but I hope some effort is made to protect the others.

Kherson city is no longer occupied as of November 11. As a result, all Russian-occupied territory is now on the left (east/south) bank of the Dnipro. Russia destroying any bridges crossing the river would essentially be an acknowledgement that they are not going to control any more territory than what they have. Given that Kherson and Zaporizhzhia oblasts were both "annexed" by Russia, and both include (Ukrainian-controlled) territory on the right bank of the Dnipro that would be inaccessible, that seems like an admission Russia is unlikely to make.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Chris

The Russians have so far only bombed a Dnipro crossing once, the Amursky Bridge in the city of Dnipro. It was hit by a missile and repaired within a day.

The Russians blew up the Antonivka Bridge near Kherson during their retreat from the right bank, but it was already severely damaged by a very large number of HIMARS strikes (some estimates are 120 HIMARS strikes on the bridge from July to November). The Ukrainians targeted the box girder segment of the bridge, which would be harder to repair. The Russians blew up the northern approach spans, which are more simple beam spans. They also blew up a couple of short spans of the road bridge at the Nova Kakhovka Dam. This has effectively shortened the front line by some 300 kilometers.

The Ukrainians destroyed the Dnipro bridge west of Chernihiv in February 2022. This bridge is on road R-56, on the Belarusian border. It's the only road bridge north of Kyiv which extends into Ukraine.



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