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Abandoned runways turned into roads

Started by Kniwt, April 03, 2022, 07:21:17 PM

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JayhawkCO

Don't go injecting facts into the conversation.


HighwayStar

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2022, 03:36:10 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PM
Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.

That's not what happened at all. Before DFW existed, Fort Worth tried to get Dallas to build a combined airport midway between the two cities that would replace the downtown Fort Worth and Dallas airfields. This was Amon Carter Greater Southwest Airport (GSW). However, because the plans placed the GSW terminal on the west side of the property, closer to Ft. Worth, Dallas pulled all of their funding from GSW and sank it all into Love Field. The FAA got pissed because with Dallas not closing its airport, they'd have to indefinitely fund two redundant commercial airports for Dallas and Fort Worth. They forced the construction of DFW and the abandonment of GSW to force Dallas to give up DAL. The FAA was clear on this at the time.

The reason the Wright Amendment happened was because when Southwest started at DAL, the federal government didn't want the city of Dallas to pull out of DFW and put them back in a position of having to fund two separate airports again. That would be more expensive and risk making DFW financially infeasible. By the time it was repealed, it was clear air traffic out of the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex had grown enough that DFW and DAL could both be feasible.

I am not concerned with that early history as it is not relevant to my point. The main issue here is that Love Field was kept around after DFW and proved to be a valuable asset. The Wright amendment was an intervention to force people to use a less convenient airport because they knew damn well people would prefer Love Filed. Its repeal had nothing to do with traffic volumes and everything to do with it becoming a political target thanks to Southwest educating the consumer on why they could not get decent flights out of that airport.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

formulanone

#77
If you lived or worked near downtown Dallas, then Love Field was convenient. For everyone else that was closer to DFW, then that was probably more convenient (and the shiny new thing at the time). So you're superimposing that everyone didn't like the new airport, when it was just those with a vested interest in their nearby airport not wanting to drive a little further to the new one, when they might have been happier overall with more flight choices and less traffic in the vicinity of DFW in the mid-1970s.

Anyway, so about those Abandoned Runways Turned Into Roads...which is the actual discussion topic and title, and totally not about conjecture, hearsay, and anecdotes of past and present airport facilities.

FrCorySticha

Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:20:22 AM

I am not concerned with that early history as it is not relevant to my point. The main issue here is that Love Field was kept around after DFW and proved to be a valuable asset. The Wright amendment was an intervention to force people to use a less convenient airport because they knew damn well people would prefer Love Filed. Its repeal had nothing to do with traffic volumes and everything to do with it becoming a political target thanks to Southwest educating the consumer on why they could not get decent flights out of that airport.

I'm going to say this again: Denver is not Dallas-Fort Worth. Stapleton was not Love Field. Denver has precisely zero need, and will have no need, for another airport. DIA meets every need for people who actually live and fly there, even if you disagree. I'm sure you could find a handful of people in Denver who think as you do, but it is such a small number to be insignificant.

HighwayStar

Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 13, 2022, 11:53:21 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:20:22 AM

I am not concerned with that early history as it is not relevant to my point. The main issue here is that Love Field was kept around after DFW and proved to be a valuable asset. The Wright amendment was an intervention to force people to use a less convenient airport because they knew damn well people would prefer Love Filed. Its repeal had nothing to do with traffic volumes and everything to do with it becoming a political target thanks to Southwest educating the consumer on why they could not get decent flights out of that airport.

I'm going to say this again: Denver is not Dallas-Fort Worth. Stapleton was not Love Field. Denver has precisely zero need, and will have no need, for another airport. DIA meets every need for people who actually live and fly there, even if you disagree. I'm sure you could find a handful of people in Denver who think as you do, but it is such a small number to be insignificant.

Asking the public, who have no idea of what could have been, if they think they have good enough airport service is a terrible test of that. There is no reason that the situation is not analogous, Denver is another US city, not a martian hamlet.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

FrCorySticha

Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:55:43 AM
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 13, 2022, 11:53:21 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:20:22 AM

I am not concerned with that early history as it is not relevant to my point. The main issue here is that Love Field was kept around after DFW and proved to be a valuable asset. The Wright amendment was an intervention to force people to use a less convenient airport because they knew damn well people would prefer Love Filed. Its repeal had nothing to do with traffic volumes and everything to do with it becoming a political target thanks to Southwest educating the consumer on why they could not get decent flights out of that airport.

I'm going to say this again: Denver is not Dallas-Fort Worth. Stapleton was not Love Field. Denver has precisely zero need, and will have no need, for another airport. DIA meets every need for people who actually live and fly there, even if you disagree. I'm sure you could find a handful of people in Denver who think as you do, but it is such a small number to be insignificant.

Asking the public, who have no idea of what could have been, if they think they have good enough airport service is a terrible test of that. There is no reason that the situation is not analogous, Denver is another US city, not a martian hamlet.

But you are, someone who lives on the other side of the country? I would trust the public who actually use the airport over you. Show me the groundswell in Denver to have another, closer airport. Show me those who have ever regretted not having Stapleton. You have Google. Show them to me.

abefroman329

Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:20:22 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2022, 03:36:10 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PM
Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.

That's not what happened at all. Before DFW existed, Fort Worth tried to get Dallas to build a combined airport midway between the two cities that would replace the downtown Fort Worth and Dallas airfields. This was Amon Carter Greater Southwest Airport (GSW). However, because the plans placed the GSW terminal on the west side of the property, closer to Ft. Worth, Dallas pulled all of their funding from GSW and sank it all into Love Field. The FAA got pissed because with Dallas not closing its airport, they'd have to indefinitely fund two redundant commercial airports for Dallas and Fort Worth. They forced the construction of DFW and the abandonment of GSW to force Dallas to give up DAL. The FAA was clear on this at the time.

The reason the Wright Amendment happened was because when Southwest started at DAL, the federal government didn't want the city of Dallas to pull out of DFW and put them back in a position of having to fund two separate airports again. That would be more expensive and risk making DFW financially infeasible. By the time it was repealed, it was clear air traffic out of the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex had grown enough that DFW and DAL could both be feasible.

I am not concerned with that early history as it is not relevant to my point. The main issue here is that Love Field was kept around after DFW and proved to be a valuable asset. The Wright amendment was an intervention to force people to use a less convenient airport because they knew damn well people would prefer Love Filed. Its repeal had nothing to do with traffic volumes and everything to do with it becoming a political target thanks to Southwest educating the consumer on why they could not get decent flights out of that airport.
So you think that the best solution would have been analogous to LGA and JFK, or DCA and IAD?

HighwayStar

Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 13, 2022, 11:57:27 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:55:43 AM
Quote from: FrCorySticha on April 13, 2022, 11:53:21 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:20:22 AM

I am not concerned with that early history as it is not relevant to my point. The main issue here is that Love Field was kept around after DFW and proved to be a valuable asset. The Wright amendment was an intervention to force people to use a less convenient airport because they knew damn well people would prefer Love Filed. Its repeal had nothing to do with traffic volumes and everything to do with it becoming a political target thanks to Southwest educating the consumer on why they could not get decent flights out of that airport.

I'm going to say this again: Denver is not Dallas-Fort Worth. Stapleton was not Love Field. Denver has precisely zero need, and will have no need, for another airport. DIA meets every need for people who actually live and fly there, even if you disagree. I'm sure you could find a handful of people in Denver who think as you do, but it is such a small number to be insignificant.

Asking the public, who have no idea of what could have been, if they think they have good enough airport service is a terrible test of that. There is no reason that the situation is not analogous, Denver is another US city, not a martian hamlet.

But you are, someone who lives on the other side of the country? I would trust the public who actually use the airport over you. Show me the groundswell in Denver to have another, closer airport. Show me those who have ever regretted not having Stapleton. You have Google. Show them to me.

Again, most people would never have formed an option on the matter, one airport was taken away and another put in its place. Most have no idea what happened or why it was sub optimal. Its like asking a 3rd grader to teach calculus.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

FrCorySticha

Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 12:01:14 PM

Again, most people would never have formed an option on the matter, one airport was taken away and another put in its place. Most have no idea what happened or why it was sub optimal. Its like asking a 3rd grader to teach calculus.

Or, another possibility, they know better than you. But what do they know? They're just the people who actually live there and know the situation first hand.

I'm done. Have your "I out argued on the Internet!" trophy.

kphoger

Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 12:01:14 PM
Most have no idea what happened or why it was sub optimal.

It was optimal.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Scott5114

Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:20:22 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2022, 03:36:10 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PM
Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.

That's not what happened at all. Before DFW existed, Fort Worth tried to get Dallas to build a combined airport midway between the two cities that would replace the downtown Fort Worth and Dallas airfields. This was Amon Carter Greater Southwest Airport (GSW). However, because the plans placed the GSW terminal on the west side of the property, closer to Ft. Worth, Dallas pulled all of their funding from GSW and sank it all into Love Field. The FAA got pissed because with Dallas not closing its airport, they'd have to indefinitely fund two redundant commercial airports for Dallas and Fort Worth. They forced the construction of DFW and the abandonment of GSW to force Dallas to give up DAL. The FAA was clear on this at the time.

The reason the Wright Amendment happened was because when Southwest started at DAL, the federal government didn't want the city of Dallas to pull out of DFW and put them back in a position of having to fund two separate airports again. That would be more expensive and risk making DFW financially infeasible. By the time it was repealed, it was clear air traffic out of the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex had grown enough that DFW and DAL could both be feasible.

I am not concerned with that early history as it is not relevant to my point.

Then your point has no bearing on reality and you posting here is a waste of everyone's time.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

kkt

Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 02:13:53 PM
Going to Stapleton, it was like, there's a gas station, there's a crack house, there's the airport, there's a porn store, oh wait! turn around! we missed the airport!

:-D

mgk920

Quote from: formulanone on April 12, 2022, 09:38:15 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2022, 09:31:49 AM
DIA is a better airport than Stapleton was anyway.

I never flew to/from Stapleton but the old photos looks like it was in need of expansion, but there wasn't any additional room for it. I'm comparing it to today's DEN, so that's not a perfect comparison, but it's hard to deny that as a valid reason to "move" the whole shebang way out into the sticks. Anything else smacks of story telling and yarn spinning.

Too bad the annexation door was slammed on Denver like it was...

Mike

If the population of Colorado Springs keeps up its trajectory, then it will probably become the de facto second airport for the Denver metro area (though it's a different agglomeration).

skluth

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2022, 03:23:36 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 13, 2022, 11:20:22 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2022, 03:36:10 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 12, 2022, 01:57:31 PM
Yeah that is the same line of BS they fed everyone about Love Field, but a funny thing happened over time, people came to love the convenience of an airport close to downtown and the government had to put draconian restrictions on it to prevent people from using it.

That's not what happened at all. Before DFW existed, Fort Worth tried to get Dallas to build a combined airport midway between the two cities that would replace the downtown Fort Worth and Dallas airfields. This was Amon Carter Greater Southwest Airport (GSW). However, because the plans placed the GSW terminal on the west side of the property, closer to Ft. Worth, Dallas pulled all of their funding from GSW and sank it all into Love Field. The FAA got pissed because with Dallas not closing its airport, they'd have to indefinitely fund two redundant commercial airports for Dallas and Fort Worth. They forced the construction of DFW and the abandonment of GSW to force Dallas to give up DAL. The FAA was clear on this at the time.

The reason the Wright Amendment happened was because when Southwest started at DAL, the federal government didn't want the city of Dallas to pull out of DFW and put them back in a position of having to fund two separate airports again. That would be more expensive and risk making DFW financially infeasible. By the time it was repealed, it was clear air traffic out of the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex had grown enough that DFW and DAL could both be feasible.

I am not concerned with that early history as it is not relevant to my point.

Then your point has no bearing on reality and you posting here is a waste of everyone's time.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:



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