How do you define the Midwest?

[kphoger]

Indiana has a lot of counties in the 6k to 17k range. The two least populated counties are under 170 sq mi and are the two that are under 7k population, but the rest of the counties under 17k in population are mostly > 300 sq mi.

But, to me, that's still small.  The county I grew up in (pop. < 3000) is 1070 mi².  Here in Kansas, there's only one county smaller than 300 mi², and it's the one with Kansas City in it.

But moreover, I was surprised there weren't more pop. < 3000in Indiana when compared to Illinois, because the median land area of Illinois's counties is almost 30% larger than that of Indiana's.

[Flint1979]

Allen County is the largest county in Indiana in land area. At 657 square miles in Michigan that county would be the 32nd largest, roughly the same size as Presque Isle County.

[NWI_Irish96]

Indiana has a lot of counties in the 6k to 17k range. The two least populated counties are under 170 sq mi and are the two that are under 7k population, but the rest of the counties under 17k in population are mostly > 300 sq mi.

But, to me, that's still small.  The county I grew up in (pop. < 3000) is 1070 mi².  Here in Kansas, there's only one county smaller than 300 mi², and it's the one with Kansas City in it.

But moreover, I was surprised there weren't more pop. < 3000in Indiana when compared to Illinois, because the median land area of Illinois's counties is almost 30% larger than that of Indiana's.

Indiana's population density is 5x that of Kansas. Only six of Indiana's counties have a population density less than Kansas' statewide figure.

[kphoger]

Indiana has a lot of counties in the 6k to 17k range. The two least populated counties are under 170 sq mi and are the two that are under 7k population, but the rest of the counties under 17k in population are mostly > 300 sq mi.

But, to me, that's still small.  The county I grew up in (pop. < 3000) is 1070 mi².  Here in Kansas, there's only one county smaller than 300 mi², and it's the one with Kansas City in it.

But moreover, I was surprised there weren't more pop. < 3000in Indiana when compared to Illinois, because the median land area of Illinois's counties is almost 30% larger than that of Indiana's.

Indiana's population density is 5x that of Kansas. Only six of Indiana's counties have a population density less than Kansas' statewide figure.

I think what I wasn't fully considering is how much closer together communities are there.

So, for example, the fifth-least-populous county in Kansas (Hodgeman) has its county seat in Jetmore, pop. 867.  And the fifth-least populous county in Indiana (Martin) has its county seat in Shoals, pop. 677.  But Hodgeman County pretty much just has one other community in it at all—two if you're feeling generous—whereas Martin County has several.  The largest of those several others is Loogootee, which is under 3000, but I wasn't appreciating how much all the other communities can add up, because I was erroneously assuming only two or three communities per county in the least-populated ones.



Hey, is thinking about your home area in terms of counties a Midwest-specific or Midwest-defining thing?  Or is it not universal across the Midwest, or is it common outside the Midwest as well?  A county-centric mindset is pretty prevalent in these parts, but it seemed somewhat less so when I lived in Illinois.

[JayhawkCO]

Hey, is thinking about your home area in terms of counties a Midwest-specific or Midwest-defining thing?  Or is it not universal across the Midwest, or is it common outside the Midwest as well?  A county-centric mindset is pretty prevalent in these parts, but it seemed somewhat less so when I lived in Illinois.

I don't think it's a Midwest thing. Texas is the first state I think of if you ask about county mindset.

[kphoger]

Hey, is thinking about your home area in terms of counties a Midwest-specific or Midwest-defining thing?  Or is it not universal across the Midwest, or is it common outside the Midwest as well?  A county-centric mindset is pretty prevalent in these parts, but it seemed somewhat less so when I lived in Illinois.

I don't think it's a Midwest thing. Texas is the first state I think of if you ask about county mindset.

Good point.  While there are parts of Texas that seem Midwestern to me, the county-centric thing definitely extends beyond those areas.

[J N Winkler]

I don't think a focus on counties is necessarily specific to the Midwest--I've seen it in Pennsylvania too.  I think it depends partly on how much power and autonomy states delegate to their counties, which is not necessarily regionally specific, and partly also on the extent to which counties in a given state align with natural psychographic regions.

[freebrickproductions]

I'm surprised at how many states don't have counties with less than 5,000 people in them.

Which states in particular? There aren't many outside the Northeast (and Arizona, whose counties are massive).

Alabama and Tennessee. I honestly would've expected some of the more rural counties in both states to be smaller, especially the three smallest counties within the state.

[Scott5114]

I also imagine county-oriented thinking is more fully ingrained in Kansas than it might be elsewhere because of the prominence of the county code on things like license plates.

[kphoger]

I also imagine county-oriented thinking is more fully ingrained in Kansas than it might be elsewhere because of the prominence of the county code on things like license plates.

Indeed, I've even encountered forms that have a blank to write in one's county, and there's only room for two letters.  Everyone is just assumed to know to write down the same code as appears on that county's license plates.

[Flint1979]

I'm one that has clinched all of Indiana's counties. I noticed how small the counties were in area right away when I saw how close together a lot of county seats were like from Rushville in Rush County to Connersville in Fayette County it's only about 16 miles and both cities are in the middle of their county. Glenwood is on the county line and is about 8 miles from each of them.

[webny99]

Indiana's population density is 5x that of Kansas. Only six of Indiana's counties have a population density less than Kansas' statewide figure.

I think what I wasn't fully considering is how much closer together communities are there.

So, for example, the fifth-least-populous county in Kansas (Hodgeman) has its county seat in Jetmore, pop. 867.  And the fifth-least populous county in Indiana (Martin) has its county seat in Shoals, pop. 677.  But Hodgeman County pretty much just has one other community in it at all—two if you're feeling generous—whereas Martin County has several.  The largest of those several others is Loogootee, which is under 3000, but I wasn't appreciating how much all the other communities can add up, because I was erroneously assuming only two or three communities per county in the least-populated ones.

Which, to bring it full circle, is represented by a higher population density. Even areas that might not be part of a named "community" are more densely populated in states such as IN, KY, and TN than they are in KS. All those populated hills and valleys add up to quite a bit more population per square mile than endless farmland with the occasional farmstead and even more occasional small town.

Here's a handy reference: https://maps.geo.census.gov/ddmv/map.html

[NWI_Irish96]

Indiana's population density is 5x that of Kansas. Only six of Indiana's counties have a population density less than Kansas' statewide figure.

I think what I wasn't fully considering is how much closer together communities are there.

So, for example, the fifth-least-populous county in Kansas (Hodgeman) has its county seat in Jetmore, pop. 867.  And the fifth-least populous county in Indiana (Martin) has its county seat in Shoals, pop. 677.  But Hodgeman County pretty much just has one other community in it at all—two if you're feeling generous—whereas Martin County has several.  The largest of those several others is Loogootee, which is under 3000, but I wasn't appreciating how much all the other communities can add up, because I was erroneously assuming only two or three communities per county in the least-populated ones.

Which, to bring it full circle, is represented by a higher population density. Even areas that might not be part of a named "community" are more densely populated in states such as IN, KY, and TN than they are in KS. All those populated hills and valleys add up to quite a bit more population per square mile than endless farmland with the occasional farmstead and even more occasional small town.

Here's a handy reference: https://maps.geo.census.gov/ddmv/map.html

Indiana has 569 municipalities (I've been to all but 57 of them). That's a lot for a state that size and an average of 6.2 per county. 263 of them have a population < 1,000, but all those small numbers add up.

[kphoger]

Here's a handy reference: https://maps.geo.census.gov/ddmv/map.html

That map makes me even more surprised that Illinois doesn't have more <5000 counties.

[webny99]

Here's a handy reference: https://maps.geo.census.gov/ddmv/map.html

That map makes me even more surprised that Illinois doesn't have more <5000 counties.

Part of it is that "Less than 50.0" [persons per square mile] encompasses a very broad range of counties. If it were split into less than 25 and 25-49.9, the difference between those Illinois counties and those western Kansas counties would be more clear.

[J N Winkler]

I also imagine county-oriented thinking is more fully ingrained in Kansas than it might be elsewhere because of the prominence of the county code on things like license plates.

Indeed, I've even encountered forms that have a blank to write in one's county, and there's only room for two letters.  Everyone is just assumed to know to write down the same code as appears on that county's license plates.

The two-letter county codes are also used in case captions on the state's new Odyssey statewide court records system (which is down, for the immediately foreseeable future, for reasons the Office of Judicial Administration has not explained in public; press speculation has centered on a possible ransomware attack).  This means one has to pay careful attention to where the two-letter code appears in a caption, because there is overlap between counties and codes used to identify case type:  e.g., JO (Johnson) is also Juvenile Offender, and CR (Crawford) is also Criminal.

This said, even though its current project numbering scheme dates from the early 1980's and thus massively post-dates introduction of two-letter county codes around 1950, KDOT identifies counties by alphabetical sequence (e.g., 87 instead of SG for Sedgwick).  I suspect part of the reason is to allow the use of 106 as a dummy number for projects not assignable to a single county.

the best possible hose dress

https://www.sanssoucie.ca/store/regenerateleannedress

LOL!  "Hose dress" by analogy to cable dressing (but I think you knew that . . .).

[bugo]

Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.

Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.

[bugo]

I like the idea of using Missouri instead of Arkansas to dilute the South part of the equation. Missouri is also a bit southern in some respects, but Arkansas is too close to a Deep South superlative.

You've never been to Arkansas, have you?

[US 89]

Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.

Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.

I can at least see it for the Delta region. The rest of the state, especially west of US 67, is definitely still southern but more of a peripheral south.

[GaryV]

Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.

Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.

Louisiana?

[Big John]

Tennessee?

[bugo]

Louisiana? By some definitions. Tennessee? No way. Tennessee is too far north to be part of the deep south.

[Rothman]

Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.

Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.

Ozarks.

[JayhawkCO]

Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.

Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.

Ozarks.

For me, the deep South, geographically, does not include "mountains".

[Rothman]

Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.

Arkansas is not part of the deep south. The deep south is Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi. Sometimes South Carolina and northern Florida are included. But Arkansas? Nothing deep southern about Arkansas.

Ozarks.

For me, the deep South, geographically, does not include "mountains".

Eh, fair enough.  I suppose Ozarks are more like Appalachia.