April bid openings: $1.09 billion for I-35 in North Texas

[MaxConcrete]

Bids were opened for two big projects this week. Unfortunately there appears to be no relief from construction cost inflation. Both jobs had only two bidders, and both are substantially over budget (18% and 29%). I'm thinking the Denton project will proceed, but the Red River project may be subject to review.

I-35 from the split point of 35E and 35W, north to Loop 288 (in Denton)
Bid opening page
Observations: Looking at the plans, I-35 north of the split point will generally have 9 main lanes, 5 northbound and 4 southbound. The southbound direction includes pavement for the 5th lane but it is striped off. (Maybe it will be put into service when I-35W is widened?) There are auxiliary lanes just north of the split point. There is an unpaved median for about 2 miles north of the split point.

County:   DENTON   Let Date:   04/04/24
Type:   INTERCHANGE IMPROVEMENT   Seq No:   3001
Time:   0 X   Project ID:   F 2024(944)
Highway:   IH 35   Contract #:   04243001
Length:   4.803   CCSJ:   0195-03-087
Limits:   
From:   N TEXAS BLVD   Check:   $100,000
To:   US 77 NORTH OF DENTON   Misc Cost:   
Estimate   $517,836,770.28   % Over/Under   Company
Bidder 1   $611,023,840.70   +18.00%   SEMA CONSTRUCTION, INC.
Bidder 2   $673,884,209.99   +30.13%   WEBBER, LLC

I-35 at Oklahoma border, new Red River bridge and rebuild freeway 7 miles southward
Bid opening page
Observations: This project expands to 3x3, but includes pavement (in the form of extra wide shoulders) or "interim berm" provision for ultimate 4x4.

County:   COOKE   Let Date:   04/05/24
Type:   WIDEN ROAD - ADD LANES   Seq No:   3202
Time:   1588 WORKING DAYS   Project ID:   F 2024(845)
Highway:   IH 35   Contract #:   04243202
Length:   13.951   CCSJ:   0194-01-010
Limits:   
From:   ON IH 35 AT THE RED RIVER BRIDGE   Check:   $100,000
To:   .   Misc Cost:   
Estimate   $374,221,475.10   % Over/Under   Company
Bidder 1   $482,134,094.98   +28.84%   AUSTIN BRIDGE & ROAD SERVICES, LP
ZACHRY CONSTRUCTION CORPORATION
Bidder 2   $533,942,003.00   +42.68%   WEBBER, LLC

[BJ59]

Finally. That stretch of I-35 is a choke point even when there's no rush-hour traffic.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeah, improvements from the red river to Denton cannot come quick enough. This entire stretch needs to be four lanes each way and modernized.

[armadillo speedbump]

LOL, no, 4-lanes north of Gainesville is not needed, nor will it be any time soon, when I-45 between Dallas and Houston isn't even yet 3-lanes for a long stretch.

[Plutonic Panda]

LOL, no, 4-lanes north of Gainesville is not needed, nor will it be any time soon, when I-45 between Dallas and Houston isn't even yet 3-lanes for a long stretch.

Well, Texas is sure planning for it. Regardless Las, I wasn't even necessarily focused on that section but yes, I do think they might as well and go for it anyways and future proof it. Since we want to get so specific, yes, the area of I 35 in North Texas I was more or less focused on was between Gainesville and Denton.

Again, the plan is for 35 to be four lanes each way to mile marker one in Oklahoma over the red river.

[BJ59]

They might as well prep it for 4-lanes in each direction. If the metro keeps growing at this rate, I would not be surprised at all if most of the area between Denton and Gainesville becomes suburbanized. Plus, it is one of the main interstates in the nation serving a lot of truck traffic from Mexico. It would be a shame if they only prepped for 6-lanes and then discovered a couple years later that it needs 8.

[The Ghostbuster]

What are the traffic counts for that segment of Interstate 35 in Texas? Does it warrant an expansion to eight lanes instead of merely an expansion to six lanes?

[Plutonic Panda]

I don't know what the exact traffic counts are. But I just know from driving that road so many times it needs to be eight lanes. It goes from having perfectly calm and somewhat orderly traffic North of Ardmore to just complete chaos once you pass thackerville. At bare minimum it needs to be eight lanes from Gainesville to Denton

[Chris]

What are the traffic counts for that segment of Interstate 35 in Texas? Does it warrant an expansion to eight lanes instead of merely an expansion to six lanes?

https://www.txdot.gov/apps/statewide_mapping/StatewidePlanningMap.html

TxDOT traffic modeling shows an average traffic volume of 50,000 near the Oklahoma state line, increasing to 75,000 near Denton.

I suppose it depends on future growth projections (suburban expansion) in the corridor whether six or eight lanes are required.

[DNAguy]

As a UT fan, any use of my tax dollars to help OU fans get to Dallas is a non-starter for me.

The governor as a fellow longhorn must stand up to such fiscal frivolousness.

He better not rollover and let out of state crimson and cream influences dictate Texas policy.

[In_Correct]

I can not stress this enough:

By The Time Interstate 35 Is Widened To 8 Lanes + Frontage Roads,

It Would Be Too Late.

Every Road Every Where Is Going To Be Overcrowded.

Too many nay sayers apparently not considering the large amount of time to even begin construction.

The Interstate 35, with nearby Win Star, is at least going to need the area clear for an eventual stripe of 8 lanes. Interstate 35 also has a Traffic Congestion DAILY. There are numerous areas that require safety upgrades. And then after all that is said and done, there is the Valley View that is no other option to Grade Separate The B.N.S.F. Lines except to perhaps trench the North Bound Frontage Road not unlike The College Station Intersection.

Also I have no knowledge regarding The Necessary Superhighway ... ( Eventual Interstate 45 ) ... except that it should be focused on trenching The Interstate 345 to make The New Urbanists go away.

[Bobby5280]

If they're going to re-build the I-35 bridges over the Red River they might as well build them with 4x4 lanes capacity even if they're only striped initially as 3x3. Such bridges have to last for multiple decades.

Population growth in the metroplex doesn't appear to be slowing down at all. In the immediate area near Gainesville we could see an enormous amount of new development all around the Lake Texoma region. Oklahoma isn't growing nearly as fast, but the OKC metro is one of the few bright spots in the Sooner state. All of this is going to translate to a lot more traffic on I-35.

[armadillo speedbump]

Did all of y'all freaking out about the need to build for future expansion not read the original post?  It says right there:

I-35 at Oklahoma border, new Red River bridge and rebuild freeway 7 miles southward
Bid opening page
Observations: This project expands to 3x3, but includes pavement (in the form of extra wide shoulders) or "interim berm" provision for ultimate 4x4.

And no one has argued against the logical concept of prepping for future expansion when the cost is reasonable. 

As to growth, the Red River bridge is 70 miles north of downtown Fort Worth.  The current northern edge of the DFW suburbs along I-35 is where it is intersected by Denton's northern loop, 33 miles south of the Red River bridge.  Other than a few pockets of new subdivisions in Sanger and one in Valley View, virtually all the growth north of Denton and Pilot Point has been rural or exurban.  Ranches, smaller horse plots, and acre+ large lot septic residences.  Valley View to the Red River isn't going to fill up with suburbs in the next decade, or two, or three.  Ft. Worth to Denton hasn't even finished filling in.

"Fast growing!" Cooke County, TX (which includes Gainesville), only grew from 38,000 to 41,000 for 2010-2020.  The south end of the county is 21 miles south of the Red River bridge.  Love County, OK to the north grew from 9,000 to 10,000 in the same time period.  The next county to the north, Carter (Ardmore) also only grew by 1,000 in those 10 years. 

3x3 north of Denton will be sufficient for many years to come, especially north of Sanger.

[rte66man]

If they're going to re-build the I-35 bridges over the Red River they might as well build them with 4x4 lanes capacity even if they're only striped initially as 3x3. Such bridges have to last for multiple decades.

Population growth in the metroplex doesn't appear to be slowing down at all. In the immediate area near Gainesville we could see an enormous amount of new development all around the Lake Texoma region. Oklahoma isn't growing nearly as fast, but the OKC metro is one of the few bright spots in the Sooner state. All of this is going to translate to a lot more traffic on I-35.

ODOT has already announced the bridges will be 4x4 with a 3rd bridge for the frontage road. WinStar will continue to generate tax dollars tribal revenue for OK the Chickasaw Nation from all the Texans heading north to gamble.

[BJ59]

Did all of y'all freaking out about the need to build for future expansion not read the original post?  It says right there:

I-35 at Oklahoma border, new Red River bridge and rebuild freeway 7 miles southward
Bid opening page
Observations: This project expands to 3x3, but includes pavement (in the form of extra wide shoulders) or "interim berm" provision for ultimate 4x4.

And no one has argued against the logical concept of prepping for future expansion when the cost is reasonable. 

As to growth, the Red River bridge is 70 miles north of downtown Fort Worth.  The current northern edge of the DFW suburbs along I-35 is where it is intersected by Denton's northern loop, 33 miles south of the Red River bridge.  Other than a few pockets of new subdivisions in Sanger and one in Valley View, virtually all the growth north of Denton and Pilot Point has been rural or exurban.  Ranches, smaller horse plots, and acre+ large lot septic residences.  Valley View to the Red River isn't going to fill up with suburbs in the next decade, or two, or three.  Ft. Worth to Denton hasn't even finished filling in.

"Fast growing!" Cooke County, TX (which includes Gainesville), only grew from 38,000 to 41,000 for 2010-2020.  The south end of the county is 21 miles south of the Red River bridge.  Love County, OK to the north grew from 9,000 to 10,000 in the same time period.  The next county to the north, Carter (Ardmore) also only grew by 1,000 in those 10 years. 

3x3 north of Denton will be sufficient for many years to come, especially north of Sanger.

They might as well prep it for 8-lanes. Yes, Ft. Worth to Denton is filling in, but I-35W on that stretch already needs to be 3x3 at least. By prepping it for 4-lanes, they'll avoid the problem of being caught off guard if growth explodes in that area. They don't have to pave the entire way for 4-lanes, but I think all the bridges at least should have enough room to be 4x4 so if and when they do upgrade it to 8-lanes it will be a fairly easy upgrade

[MaxConcrete]

Both I-35 projects were approved by the commission on April 25.

There was discussion of the cost overruns, particularly the north project at the Oklahoma border. The TxDOT contracting director says they are looking into smaller projects to attract more bidders, but many large projects are not suitable to be split into multiple small projects.

[Scott5114]

As a UT fan, any use of my tax dollars to help OU fans get to Dallas is a non-starter for me.

The governor as a fellow longhorn must stand up to such fiscal frivolousness.

He better not rollover and let out of state crimson and cream influences dictate Texas policy.

Suggesting that programming of transportation projects should be based not on actual need but on college football loyalties is absolutely unhinged behavior.

[Rothman]

As a UT fan, any use of my tax dollars to help OU fans get to Dallas is a non-starter for me.

The governor as a fellow longhorn must stand up to such fiscal frivolousness.

He better not rollover and let out of state crimson and cream influences dictate Texas policy.

Suggesting that programming of transportation projects should be based not on actual need but on college football loyalties is absolutely unhinged behavior.

Nah.  I'm with him on keeping OU fans out of Dallas.

[BJ59]

As a UT fan, any use of my tax dollars to help OU fans get to Dallas is a non-starter for me.

The governor as a fellow longhorn must stand up to such fiscal frivolousness.

He better not rollover and let out of state crimson and cream influences dictate Texas policy.

Suggesting that programming of transportation projects should be based not on actual need but on college football loyalties is absolutely unhinged behavior.

Nah.  I'm with him on keeping OU fans out of Dallas.

That's ridiculous to oppose a highway upgrade based off of OU fans coming into Texas. It's not like they're going to be deterred from coming to a football game because a highway is 4-lanes instead of 6-lanes. Might as well get the upgrade because it will be needed in the future 

[Rothman]

As a UT fan, any use of my tax dollars to help OU fans get to Dallas is a non-starter for me.

The governor as a fellow longhorn must stand up to such fiscal frivolousness.

He better not rollover and let out of state crimson and cream influences dictate Texas policy.

Suggesting that programming of transportation projects should be based not on actual need but on college football loyalties is absolutely unhinged behavior.

Nah.  I'm with him on keeping OU fans out of Dallas.

That's ridiculous to oppose a highway upgrade based off of OU fans coming into Texas. It's not like they're going to be deterred from coming to a football game because a highway is 4-lanes instead of 6-lanes. Might as well get the upgrade because it will be needed in the future 

I don't know.  If you want to keep the riff raff out, it does seem like policy options are available.  Perhaps a toll on just out-of-staters would work...

[Plutonic Panda]

Thry are trolling and I don't care for college football but I find it stupid.

[In_Correct]

Time for this discussion to be locked ?! If any body is concerned about tax dollars being wasted, perhaps they should be concerned that their tax dollars are paying for D.O.T. Employees to hijack discussions, spread narratives and other oppositions, for the most childish of reasons. Keep your toxic attitudes off of here AND the roads.

[Rothman]

Time for this discussion to be locked ?! If any body is concerned about tax dollars being wasted, perhaps they should be concerned that their tax dollars are paying for D.O.T. Employees to hijack discussions, spread narratives and other oppositions, for the most childish of reasons. Keep your toxic attitudes off of here AND the roads.

Last I checked, DOT employees were still allowed to have a sense of humor, just like other human beings. But, thank you for the reminder that there are indeed people that do not detect irony, sarcasm, lightheartedness, or nuance out there.

[Plutonic Panda]

Time for this discussion to be locked ?! If any body is concerned about tax dollars being wasted, perhaps they should be concerned that their tax dollars are paying for D.O.T. Employees to hijack discussions, spread narratives and other oppositions, for the most childish of reasons. Keep your toxic attitudes off of here AND the roads.

Last I checked, DOT employees were still allowed to have a sense of humor, just like other human beings. But, thank you for the reminder that there are indeed people that do not detect irony, sarcasm, lightheartedness, or nuance out there.

Agreed, but it also seems like this is a running joke that is beaten to death and it isn't really funny or needed for a thread discussing a highway expansion in North Texas. Come up with something original.

And as for the thread being locked, I would think that would be a bit of an overkill.

[In_Correct]

Time for this discussion to be locked ?! If any body is concerned about tax dollars being wasted, perhaps they should be concerned that their tax dollars are paying for D.O.T. Employees to hijack discussions, spread narratives and other oppositions, for the most childish of reasons. Keep your toxic attitudes off of here AND the roads.

Last I checked, DOT employees were still allowed to have a sense of humor, just like other human beings. But, thank you for the reminder that there are indeed people that do not detect irony, sarcasm, lightheartedness, or nuance out there.

Agreed, but it also seems like this is a running joke that is beaten to death and it isn't really funny or needed for a thread discussing a highway expansion in North Texas. Come up with something original.

And as for the thread being locked, I would think that would be a bit of an overkill.

It is a message board, and difficult to interpret comedy. If there was any smileys used, I did not notice them.

Also I am trying to figure out any possible justifiable reasons for these absurd reactions toward Oklahoma, which Texas has highways connected to. It seems that Nay Sayers on here are worried that Texas is paying for Oklahoma's Roads. I very much doubt such things actually occur.

The dangerous situations and traffic problems in for example Interstate 35 in Texas is absolutely nothing to joke about. Seeing fatalities, or otherwise traffic congestions in areas such as the main lanes and / or the Interchange Ramps ( which includes automobiles lined up in the shoulders ) I find very difficult to laugh.