interstate highways with no speed limit (pre-1973)

[agentsteel53]

I know that before 1973, some states like Montana and Nevada had lots of rural road with no speed limit.  I'm wondering if any interstate freeways received this classification, or if it was limited just to extremely low traffic count two-laners like US-95 between Winnemucca and the Oregon border.

[Scott5114]

Upon opening, the Kansas Turnpike had no speed limit, but it was generally considered unreasonable to exceed 80. (i.e., that's when the troopers would start chasing you down.) Eventually the limit was fixed at 80 (later lowered to 75, then 55 upon NMSL, then 65 when the law allowing interstates to have higher limits was passed, then 70 when NMSL was repealed, and now back up to 75 again). This was October 1956, so not officially an Interstate yet, though of course the same turnpike is now I-35/I-335/I-470/I-70.

[myosh_tino]

My dad drove what is now I-80 through Nevada pre-1973 (not sure if it was signed as I-80 back then) and it was the freeway portions that were "Reasonable and Proper/Prudent".  He recalls doing 100+ MPH on the freeway portion but when driving through town the speed limit would eventually drop to 25 MPH and he felt like he was going backwards.

[vdeane]

Montana had no speed limit as well, though from what I've read the cops generally enforced a 100mph speed limit (and still do, despite it officially being 75).

[J N Winkler]

Upon opening, the Kansas Turnpike had no speed limit, but it was generally considered unreasonable to exceed 80. (i.e., that's when the troopers would start chasing you down.) Eventually the limit was fixed at 80 (later lowered to 75, then 55 upon NMSL, then 65 when the law allowing interstates to have higher limits was passed, then 70 when NMSL was repealed, and now back up to 75 again). This was October 1956, so not officially an Interstate yet, though of course the same turnpike is now I-35/I-335/I-470/I-70.

Actually, at the time the Kansas Turnpike opened, Kansas had no general speed limit for rural state highways--every state road (including the Turnpike) was derestricted.  Statewide rural speed limits (initially 70 MPH for all classes of highway, if memory serves) were introduced a year later, in 1957.

The Turnpike was not completely absent of speed limits when it opened.  There were speed limits on the approaches to areas where all traffic had to stop, such as the terminus plazas.  Drivers received advance notice through "SPEED ZONE AHEAD" signing.  Numerical speed limits were cancelled by "END SPEED ZONE" signs.  Also, the Turnpike had a minimum speed limit from the start, which was indicated by white-on-green sign panels reading "MINIMUM SPEED 40 M.P.H."  When the 80 MPH limit was introduced, I believe it was signed by adding a second line of copy above the existing one--"MAXIMUM SPEED 80 M.P.H."--on the existing minimum speed signs.

The term of art for the basic speed rule in Kansas pre-1957 was "reasonable and proper" (not "reasonable and prudent" as used in Montana and other states).  Before Montana re-imposed numerical speed limits in the late 1990's, there were large black-on-white signs explaining the basic speed rule and using the phrase "reasonable and prudent" (these signs were similar in format to the large signs TxDOT used to have, but is now phasing out, which were posted at the state line to explain statewide speed limits).  I have found no evidence of similar signing in Kansas.  The original signing plans for the Turnpike, for example, do not show any signs posted at the Oklahoma state line to tell northbound traffic that there are no speed limits in Kansas, or that a "reasonable and proper" rule applies.  In Kansas you apparently knew you were on a derestricted road only in a negative fashion, either by passing an "END SPEED ZONE" sign or through the absence of speed limit signs indicating a numerical limit.

[sp_redelectric]

Montana had no speed limit as well, though from what I've read the cops generally enforced a 100mph speed limit (and still do, despite it officially being 75).

Egh, I can tell you I got (my one and only) speeding ticket in Montana, on U.S. 93 for 74 in a 65.

Since I lived in Kalispell I didn't drive on I-90 too often but the speed laws were definitely enforced in 2000-2003.  Especially on 93.

[flowmotion]

Montana famously had the $5 "fuel economy violation" tickets during the national speed law era. (Although in daylight hours only, a friend of mine got a large ticket at twilight.)

Afterwards, they went back to "reasonable and prudent" for a few years. But speedlimits were reintroduced in 1999. My guess is they wanted the revenue.

[agentsteel53]

My dad drove what is now I-80 through Nevada pre-1973 (not sure if it was signed as I-80 back then) and it was the freeway portions that were "Reasonable and Proper/Prudent".  He recalls doing 100+ MPH on the freeway portion but when driving through town the speed limit would eventually drop to 25 MPH and he felt like he was going backwards.

I-80 was signed in Nevada even when it was not a limited-access highway.



1976 photo.  I'll bet that shield covers up a US-40 shield.

these days I tend to do about 87mph on US-95 in Nevada.  and yes, 25mph in all the towns.

[Duke87]

Afterwards, they went back to "reasonable and prudent" for a few years. But speedlimits were reintroduced in 1999. My guess is they wanted the revenue.

The problem was that "reasonable and prudent" is too ambiguous. It was deemed unenforceable.

[PHLBOS]

Montana famously had the $5 "fuel economy violation" tickets during the national speed law era. (Although in daylight hours only, a friend of mine got a large ticket at twilight.)

Afterwards, they went back to "reasonable and prudent" for a few years. But speedlimits were reintroduced in 1999. My guess is they wanted the revenue.

According to one report, a numbered speed limit was reintroduced due to a 'rumor' that a mulit-state Corvette club was heading out to Montana to 'check out' its unnumbered limit.

The problem was that "reasonable and prudent" is too ambiguous. It was deemed unenforceable.

According to a 1998 Car & Driver article on the subject, the locals knew that R&P didn't always mean unlimited; it was the out-of-towners that pushed it to the limit so to speak.

[flowmotion]

Afterwards, they went back to "reasonable and prudent" for a few years. But speedlimits were reintroduced in 1999. My guess is they wanted the revenue.

The problem was that "reasonable and prudent" is too ambiguous. It was deemed unenforceable.

They could have gone back to the $5 tickets, they were totally legal.

The Corvette Club story sounds apocryphal, but it is true that most non-sports cars in the 1970s & 80s were simply not capable of very excessive speeds. By the late 1990s, plenty of  cars had the engine/tires/brakes to cruise at 90MPH. I can understand how Montana wouldn't want to be the public speedway for every dude in a new Civic.

[1995hoo]

Afterwards, they went back to "reasonable and prudent" for a few years. But speedlimits were reintroduced in 1999. My guess is they wanted the revenue.

The problem was that "reasonable and prudent" is too ambiguous. It was deemed unenforceable.

The Montana Supreme Court's opinion throwing out "reasonable and prudent" was State v. Stanko, 974 P.2d 1132 (Mont. 1998). The court ruled that the idea of ticketing someone under that statute merely for speeding was unconstitutional because the statute was too vague in that it did not advise the motorist at what speed they might be subject to ticketing. It didn't help that the cop (who had stopped Stanko for going 85 mph) refused to opine as to what speed would have been reasonable and prudent under the conditions; instead he said it's up to the cop's judgment, and the Court ruled that it's impermissible to give a cop that sort of "arbitrary and discriminatory" power.

I recall at the time there was some debate as to whether the whole thing had been trumped up by the State in order to come up with a situation that could allow them to enact a numeric speed limit without the legislature doing it on their own–that is, because their Supreme Court threw out the non-numeric limit, they could say with a straight face "we can't have NO speed limit at all."

What's interesting is that the Stanko opinion was issued on December 23, 1998. The very next day the same court issued another opinion in a separate case involving Stanko (State v. Stanko, 974 P.2d 1139 (Mont. 1998)). In that case he'd been convicted on two counts of reckless driving for (a) going 117 mph as he crested a hill on US-87 near milepost 33 and (b) going 121 mph as he crested a hill on US-87 near milepost 31. Stanko raised various procedural issues and also argued that he couldn't be convicted of reckless driving based on speed alone where nobody was injured. The Court upheld both tickets because they said that it's unreasonable for someone driving on a two-lane road to be going over a hill in excess of 100 mph when other people might be on the road. This passage is pretty funny:

Contrary to Stanko's assertions, Officer Lobdell did not base her citation solely on the fact of Stanko's speed. Indeed, the citation itself states: "Reckless Driving! 117 mph over Crest of Hill on Narrow Road Moderate Traffic." (Emphasis added.) Furthermore, Officer Lobdell testified at trial that she cited Stanko for reckless driving because he was endangering everyone on the road due to the high speed, the narrow road, and the hill crest. She also testified that although traffic in the area was moderate on the day she cited Stanko, there was the potential for tourist traffic such as campers and boats as well as ranch and farm vehicles and trucks.

Stanko's argument that speed alone may not constitute reckless driving is beside the point. Neither officer cited Stanko for reckless driving based solely on speed. Rather, both officers considered speed plus the other factors referred to above. Other jurisdictions have long held that excessive speed under some circumstances may constitute willful or wanton disregard for the safety of others. See State v. Lunt (R.I.1969), 106 R.I. 379, 260 A.2d 149, 152; State v. Pruett (Idaho 1967), 91 Idaho 537, 428 P.2d 43; Norfolk v. State (Wyo.1961), 360 P.2d 605. We agree with these authorities. While "[t]here may be a point at which the speed becomes so excessive, the danger of injury to the passenger so probable, that such extreme speed alone might be held to be willful misconduct," People v. Nowell (Cal.App.Dept.Super.Ct.1941), 45 Cal.App.2d Supp. 811, 114 P.2d 81, 83(quoting Fisher v. Zimmerman (Cal.Ct.App.1937), 23 Cal.App.2d 696, 73 P.2d 1243, 1246), that is not the fact situation here and our decision is not premised on Stanko's speed alone.

In addition, and again contrary to Stanko's contentions, § 61-8-301, MCA, does not require that there be an actual injury before the conduct may be considered reckless.

        (1) A person commits the offense of reckless driving if he:

        (a) operates any vehicle in willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property....

        Section 61-8-301, MCA (emphasis added).

Finally, Stanko imagines himself to be a "champion race-car driver" because he won a few stock-car races in Oregon almost twenty years ago. He testified that he was consciously driving 117 mph and 121 mph at the times he was cited, but that this conduct was not reckless because he is accustomed to driving at high speeds. While Stanko's driving abilities may be legend in his own mind, we are not impressed. Unfortunately, Stanko fails to realize that racing conditions are far different from highway conditions and that Montana highways are not controlled racetracks. While Stanko may be willing to risk his own life and property traveling the highways at grossly excessive speeds as though he is still on a racetrack, other motorists do not assume the risk of driving in racetrack conditions when they travel Montana's highways. In point of fact, Montana's highways are used by senior citizens, parents hauling small children, farmers and ranchers moving machinery, school buses, commercial vehicles, and bicyclists, all of whom typically drive at less than "racetrack" speeds. Other motorists, as well, in driving and in overtaking and passing vehicles rightfully expect that following and oncoming traffic will be moving at a reasonably prudent and safe speed. Few would gauge their driving in anticipation that coming over the crest of the next hill will be a car traveling at well over 100 mph being driven by one who believes that he is on the Autobahn. Moreover, even if Stanko were to only injure or kill himself in a high-speed crash, his conduct still would be responsible for putting on the highway and at risk the emergency personnel and vehicles that would most surely have to respond. Furthermore, any person who drives in this State is aware that wild and domestic animals frequently cross Montana's roads and highways. It is common experience that trying to avoid wildlife or livestock on a road, without crashing, is difficult enough while driving at a reasonable and prudent highway speed; it is nearly impossible while driving at speeds well over 100 mph.

In short, it is clear that, under the conditions at issue here, Stanko unquestionably operated his vehicle "in willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property." Section 61-8-301, MCA. Accordingly, we hold that the District Court was correct in denying Stanko's Motion to Dismiss for Failure to Establish the Necessary Elements of the reckless driving offenses with which he was charged.

Stanko II, 974 P.2d at 1146—47 (boldface added).

[agentsteel53]

that's precisely what "reckless driving" charges are for.  I had heard the 121mph before, but had thought it was on a level road with good visibility.  121 around curves and over hills is asking for it.  I wholeheartedly endorse the issue of those two tickets.

senior citizens, parents hauling small children

okay, a little shout-out to the protected classes... can't get too consistently sensible in these rulings!

[averill]

I was in my early teens but I do remember the roads in Navada, and to a leser extent in Montana with no speed limit.  The rural highways in Navada had no speed limit signs at all; not like the POST 55 days when Montana put up speed limit (night) signs.  I don't remeber how Montana posted its no speed limit roads, if they did at all in the pre-55 MPH days.  If anyone knows I'd love to hear from you!  All those roads did use the reasonable and prudent rule, however.
Averill alhecht@comcast.net

[roadfro]

...the roads in Navada...  The rural highways in Navada...

[deathtopumpkins]

I don't remeber how Montana posted its no speed limit roads, if they did at all in the pre-55 MPH days.  If anyone knows I'd love to hear from you!  All those roads did use the reasonable and prudent rule, however.

Don't know something? Use your friend Google!
Though I'm not sure if that sign was used pre-1974 or just 1995-1999.

[jeffandnicole]

Montana famously had the $5 "fuel economy violation" tickets during the national speed law era. (Although in daylight hours only, a friend of mine got a large ticket at twilight.)

Afterwards, they went back to "reasonable and prudent" for a few years. But speedlimits were reintroduced in 1999. My guess is they wanted the revenue.

According to one report, a numbered speed limit was reintroduced due to a 'rumor' that a mulit-state Corvette club was heading out to Montana to 'check out' its unnumbered limit.

Who needs R&P?  The 55/65mph GSP works just as well...

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/04/video_shows_nj_state_police_le.html

[averill]

does anyone have pictures of the sign used for no speed limit roads' in the PRE 1973 years.  I know Montana used a night speed limit sign POST 55 (1995-1999)  But was used in Montana and Nevada in the years before the 55 MPH limit.  Thanks, Averill Hecht alhecht@comcast.net.

[J N Winkler]

In Kansas, which had no general rural speed limit on state highways and the Turnpike prior to 1957 and the prevailing speed rule was "reasonable and proper" (not "reasonable and prudent"), "Speed Zone Ahead" and "End Speed Zone" signs were used on the Turnpike to indicate spot speed limits.  The general speed rule was not otherwise signed.  This changed in 1957 when general numeric speed limits were established (initially 80 MPH on the Turnpike).

[wxfree]

On a somewhat-related topic, not really worthy of its own thread, according to my calculations, on September 15 the number of days since the end of the NMSL exceeded the number of days the law was in effect.  I wasn't around for its beginning, but I remember it ending.  I'd been driving for a little over a year by then.

Also, similar to the small fuel-wasting fine, Texas passed a law in 1995 that prevented records of speeding convictions for speeds less than allowed under state law from being made available outside of the DPS.  That would prevent insurance companies from finding out and raising rates, which weakens the deterrence.  I seem to remember reading about other states that had already done that.

[roadman65]

My dad says Nevada had no speed limit before the Nixon 55 thing!  However, he remembers I-80 not being totally completed and cannot be sure how much was done, if any in Nevada.  So it might of been for US 40, but never the completed or partially completed interstate system then.

Unfortunately my dad passed away four years ago for me to ask him now

[myosh_tino]

My dad says Nevada had no speed limit before the Nixon 55 thing!  However, he remembers I-80 not being totally completed and cannot be sure how much was done, if any in Nevada.  So it might of been for US 40, but never the completed or partially completed interstate system then.

Unfortunately my dad passed away four years ago for me to ask him now

From what my dad tells me, I-80 was freeway between towns but then transitioned to a surface street when entering the towns of Wendover, Wells, Elko, Carlin, Battle Mountain, Winnemucca and Fernly.  If you look at a map, it's pretty easy to spot where the freeway goes around these communities.  The Reasonable-and-Proper speed limits only applied to the freeway sections.  Surface street speed limits were as low as 25 MPH.

[averill]

  :confused:Does anyone know what kind of speed limit sign Montana used for the pre 55 speed limit days in the early 1970's; if any.  I know that afterwards in 1996 they used a combination sign with "speed limit" and a night tab added to it to show that there was a night time speed.  Did a sign like this appear before the 55.  I know Nevada had no signs posted before the 55.

[doorknob60]

:confused:Does anyone know what kind of speed limit sign Montana used for the pre 55 speed limit days in the early 1970's; if any.  I know that afterwards in 1996 they used a combination sign with "speed limit" and a night tab added to it to show that there was a night time speed.  Did a sign like this appear before the 55.  I know Nevada had no signs posted before the 55.

Not sure when this was taken, but I always see images like this pop up in this discussion: