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Started by iBallasticwolf2, August 29, 2015, 08:18:14 PM

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TempoNick

Quote from: seicer on April 23, 2024, 03:32:56 PMNothing under 752.4 also mandates ODOT to keep excessive tree growth or vegetation, either. It would be considered appropriate in urban and rural areas for grass to serve as the vegetative buffer.

Without the vegetation, I bet the sound on the other side of that Gahanna wall is unbearable. That's what happened when they put the sound wall up around me. They may have fixed it for people living along the freeway, but they ruined it for me.

But I don't think those sound walls have anything to do with actually deadening the sound. I think it's all about covering up the ugly houses so you don't have to see them from the freeway. Yes, I'm being facetious.


Rothman

#1276
Quote from: seicer on April 23, 2024, 03:32:56 PM"Oh, brother." Again, no citations were provided, and only vague statements were made. Check.

Looking through the FHWA, nothing under "NEPA" forces a DOT to mandate tree or vegetation encroachment on the right-of-way. Under the Federal Aid Policy Guide 752.4:

"Landscape development, which includes landscaping projects and other highway planting programs within the right-of-way of all federally funded highways or on adjoining scenic lands, shall be in general conformity with accepted concepts and principles of highway landscaping and environmental design."

If this was the Highlands Scenic Highway in West Virginia, considerations may need to be made on landscape or vegetation encroachment and management. A highway through central Columbus isn't going to violate "NEPA" or the FHWA. As ODOT's own guidelines and policies state, each municipality needs to submit an action plan to maintain said vegetation. If the City of Columbus (in this instance) did not, then ODOT can fault the city for allowing the vegetation to become a nuisance and have it removed.

Nothing under 752.4 also mandates ODOT to keep excessive tree growth or vegetation, either. It would be considered appropriate in urban and rural areas for grass to serve as the vegetative buffer.

You need to read what I wrote again.

Broad policy statements and even legislation are not where you're going to find the actual processes that govern what is included in a design approval document, ADPs, or PS&Es and their supporting documentation. 

My citation is simply my past few years being directly involved with project development and the fact I just had this discussion with a NYSDOT RLA just two weeks ago or so.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Scott5114

Assuming the references to Lady Bird are to the Lady Bird Johnson Highway Beautification Act, I just read through it (it's at 23 USC 131), and it looks like it mostly concentrates on billboard suppression. Don't see anything about landscaping in that specific law.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Rothman

#1278
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 25, 2024, 03:46:06 AMAssuming the references to Lady Bird are to the Lady Bird Johnson Highway Beautification Act, I just read through it (it's at 23 USC 131), and it looks like it mostly concentrates on billboard suppression. Don't see anything about landscaping in that specific law.

Whether or not it was included in the actual Highway Beautification Act, to deny Lady Bird's influence on current FHWA policy regarding sustainable landscaping along highways is denying quite easily Googled history.

I mean...sure, it started with essentially bribing superintendents in Texas, but, 60 years later, DOTs have to take five seconds to check that waiver box in the environmental documentation... :D

But, have to say I'm supportive of NYSDOT's current efforts in this regard, though.  It is possible to plant wildflowers and support declining pollinators while maintaining a clear zone.  It's fairly cheap, too.

Not sure why people would be against it, come to think of it.  "But the clear zone!"  "Yeah, it's clear...so, why do you hate it now?"  "Because I was just indoctrinated to hate anything that sounds green without thinking any further about benefits or costs!"
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

seicer

I think NYSDOT's rural highways tend to be better landscaped than others - but some of those efforts were because of budget cuts to grass cuttings. I can't find the article that supports that, but NYSDOT found a benefit in reducing mowings of its wide right-of-ways in allowing natural grasses and wildflowers to flourish.

GCrites

Yeah Ohio (at least) can change grasses during projects to cut down on future mowing.

TempoNick

#1281
Columbus is supposedly an up and coming city. Driving along I-70, what do you see? It actually looks like a bit of an excrement hole, to be honest.

I remember being in Denver when they paid some attention to the concrete work some highways they were redoing. I'm even noticing art-deco concrete work on some of the bridges in Cincinnati. What do we get? Seas of concrete and clear-cutting what little beauty you can see along the freeways. Even something like they did along the flood wall helps dress things up.

No knock on Columbus, a fine city, but our highways are our front yard. There is no excuse for how ugly some spots look. Especially since it's the capital city.

I said something to Mayor Coleman once about beautification along I-670 because it's the gateway into town, but he blew me off.

GCrites

An enormous amount of Columbus' highway mileage is elevated or trenched (especially for such a flat area). Trenching you can sometimes do something with but elevated is tough. A scant amount of it is at or near the elevation of the surrounding land. That's the easiest scenario to beautify.

TempoNick

I've been thinking lately that I-71 should have followed I-670 and I-70 should have followed Ohio 104 as pseudo-express lanes with very limited local access, i.e. no exits to surface roads. 

In the case of 104, interchanges with I-71 and US 33 only. With I-71, only an interchange with 315 and nothing else.

Existing I-70 east of James and I-71 between I-70 and i-670 could be used for local access to downtown.

That is one complicated project. It seems like it could have been greatly simplified by eliminating the multiplex. I also have doubts that forcing people to exit on 100 foot high flyover bridges is going to help traffic flow.

ITB


Nice summary of the $2.8 billion Ohio is pumping into infrastructure projects this year, including a list and links to some of the major projects.

kernals12

I have 2 questions about the Lakeland Freeway

A. Why did they build a separate corridor for I-90 rather than just using SR 2?

B. Seeing how it ends so abruptly, were there plans to extend it further east?

Bitmapped

Quote from: kernals12 on May 18, 2024, 08:53:50 PMI have 2 questions about the Lakeland Freeway

A. Why did they build a separate corridor for I-90 rather than just using SR 2?

B. Seeing how it ends so abruptly, were there plans to extend it further east?

I-90 slightly predates the SR 2 freeway east of Cleveland. I-90 was built further out from development and is more oriented towards through traffic east of I-271, whereas SR 2 is about providing Painesville and Mentor a connection into downtown Cleveland.

SR 2 ends where it does because the easternmost part serves as a bypass of Painesville. The freeway ends once you're past Painesville. I'm not aware of any proposals to extend it further east. The only logical place to go would be to connect back with I-90, but SR 44 just west of Painesville already connects the two so there's not a major need for another connection.


thenetwork

Quote from: Bitmapped on May 18, 2024, 10:22:32 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on May 18, 2024, 08:53:50 PMI have 2 questions about the Lakeland Freeway

A. Why did they build a separate corridor for I-90 rather than just using SR 2?

B. Seeing how it ends so abruptly, were there plans to extend it further east?

I-90 slightly predates the SR 2 freeway east of Cleveland. I-90 was built further out from development and is more oriented towards through traffic east of I-271, whereas SR 2 is about providing Painesville and Mentor a connection into downtown Cleveland.


Plus I-90, along with much of I-71 in their earliest plannings, were to be part of the Ohio Turnpike system and were to be Toll Roads.  Whether the turnpike idea was still on the minds of ODOT when planning the Lakeland, but SR-2 to the west of Cleveland was built for a similar reason as well -- to be a free alternative to the Ohio Turnpike.


kernals12

Quote from: thenetwork on May 19, 2024, 08:47:10 AM
Quote from: Bitmapped on May 18, 2024, 10:22:32 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on May 18, 2024, 08:53:50 PMI have 2 questions about the Lakeland Freeway

A. Why did they build a separate corridor for I-90 rather than just using SR 2?

B. Seeing how it ends so abruptly, were there plans to extend it further east?

I-90 slightly predates the SR 2 freeway east of Cleveland. I-90 was built further out from development and is more oriented towards through traffic east of I-271, whereas SR 2 is about providing Painesville and Mentor a connection into downtown Cleveland.


Plus I-90, along with much of I-71 in their earliest plannings, were to be part of the Ohio Turnpike system and were to be Toll Roads.  Whether the turnpike idea was still on the minds of ODOT when planning the Lakeland, but SR-2 to the west of Cleveland was built for a similar reason as well -- to be a free alternative to the Ohio Turnpike.



Funnily enough, I thought I-90 *was* tolled through NE Ohio.

thenetwork

Quote from: kernals12 on May 19, 2024, 06:55:49 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on May 19, 2024, 08:47:10 AM
Quote from: Bitmapped on May 18, 2024, 10:22:32 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on May 18, 2024, 08:53:50 PMI have 2 questions about the Lakeland Freeway

A. Why did they build a separate corridor for I-90 rather than just using SR 2?

B. Seeing how it ends so abruptly, were there plans to extend it further east?

I-90 slightly predates the SR 2 freeway east of Cleveland. I-90 was built further out from development and is more oriented towards through traffic east of I-271, whereas SR 2 is about providing Painesville and Mentor a connection into downtown Cleveland.


Plus I-90, along with much of I-71 in their earliest plannings, were to be part of the Ohio Turnpike system and were to be Toll Roads.  Whether the turnpike idea was still on the minds of ODOT when planning the Lakeland, but SR-2 to the west of Cleveland was built for a similar reason as well -- to be a free alternative to the Ohio Turnpike.



Funnily enough, I thought I-90 *was* tolled through NE Ohio.

Only when it shares the same road as I-80 west of Cleveland.  Between Elyria, OH  and Ripley, NY, I-90 is toll-free.

kernals12

Quote from: thenetwork on May 19, 2024, 11:02:20 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on May 19, 2024, 06:55:49 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on May 19, 2024, 08:47:10 AM
Quote from: Bitmapped on May 18, 2024, 10:22:32 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on May 18, 2024, 08:53:50 PMI have 2 questions about the Lakeland Freeway

A. Why did they build a separate corridor for I-90 rather than just using SR 2?

B. Seeing how it ends so abruptly, were there plans to extend it further east?

I-90 slightly predates the SR 2 freeway east of Cleveland. I-90 was built further out from development and is more oriented towards through traffic east of I-271, whereas SR 2 is about providing Painesville and Mentor a connection into downtown Cleveland.


Plus I-90, along with much of I-71 in their earliest plannings, were to be part of the Ohio Turnpike system and were to be Toll Roads.  Whether the turnpike idea was still on the minds of ODOT when planning the Lakeland, but SR-2 to the west of Cleveland was built for a similar reason as well -- to be a free alternative to the Ohio Turnpike.



Funnily enough, I thought I-90 *was* tolled through NE Ohio.

Only when it shares the same road as I-80 west of Cleveland.  Between Elyria, OH  and Ripley, NY, I-90 is toll-free.

Seeing as how I-90 is tolled in Massachusetts, New York, Indiana, and Illinois, my assumption that it would be tolled all the way through Ohio isn't unreasonable.

ilpt4u

Quote from: kernals12 on May 19, 2024, 11:13:58 PMSeeing as how I-90 is tolled in Massachusetts, New York, Indiana, and Illinois, my assumption that it would be tolled all the way through Ohio isn't unreasonable.
Technically the Chicago segment of I-90 between 63th St on the South Side and ORD Airport/the 90/190/294 interchange is toll-free in Illinois.

I believe there are some toll-free segments in New York as well

Overall I-90 can be viewed as a tolled route from Boston to Wisconsin, but does have various non-tolled segments in there

Great Lakes Roads

Quote from: ilpt4u on May 19, 2024, 11:23:52 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on May 19, 2024, 11:13:58 PMSeeing as how I-90 is tolled in Massachusetts, New York, Indiana, and Illinois, my assumption that it would be tolled all the way through Ohio isn't unreasonable.
Technically the Chicago segment of I-90 between 63th St on the South Side and ORD Airport/the 90/190/294 interchange is toll-free in Illinois.

I believe there are some toll-free segments in New York as well

Overall I-90 can be viewed as a tolled route from Boston to Wisconsin, but does have various non-tolled segments in there

In New York, the segment through Buffalo (exits 50-55) and Albany are also toll-free.
-Jay Seaburg

kernals12

Quote from: ilpt4u on May 19, 2024, 11:23:52 PM
Quote from: kernals12 on May 19, 2024, 11:13:58 PMSeeing as how I-90 is tolled in Massachusetts, New York, Indiana, and Illinois, my assumption that it would be tolled all the way through Ohio isn't unreasonable.
Technically the Chicago segment of I-90 between 63th St on the South Side and ORD Airport/the 90/190/294 interchange is toll-free in Illinois.

I believe there are some toll-free segments in New York as well

Overall I-90 can be viewed as a tolled route from Boston to Wisconsin, but does have various non-tolled segments in there

There are also two toll-free segments of the MassPike: Exits 45 to 54 in Springfield and from 90 to 96 south of Worcester.

Given Pennsylvania's fondness for toll roads, I'm surprised they don't have a tollbooth to grab out-of-state motorists like what New Hampshire and Delaware do on I-95.


Rothman

QuoteSeeing as how I-90 is tolled in Massachusetts, New York, Indiana, and Illinois, my assumption that it would be tolled all the way through Ohio isn't unreasonable.

Different states, different tolling authorities and policies.  That's like saying I-76 in Ohio "should" or be expected to be tolled totally within Ohio as well. 

So, if you've already gone through the bother of figuring out where I-90 was tolled in other states, whether east or west of Ohio, your assumption is just based upon an incomplete task.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

countysigns

As I traveled on the Ohio Turnpike on Sunday, a question came to mind... :hmmm:
Why was I-280 numbered I-280 versus I-X90?  I know I-80 and I-90 were supposed to have two different carriageways beginning around the Norwalk area but why did I-280 receive a I-X80 number?

thenetwork

Quote from: countysigns on June 10, 2024, 07:46:47 PMAs I traveled on the Ohio Turnpike on Sunday, a question came to mind... :hmmm:
Why was I-280 numbered I-280 versus I-X90?  I know I-80 and I-90 were supposed to have two different carriageways beginning around the Norwalk area but why did I-280 receive a I-X80 number?

Probably because parent I-80 is the lower number between it and I-90.

The bigger question is why was it not designated as an odd 3-digit route (i.e. I-180) as it does not loop around the city and is more of a spur route into Downtown Toledo?

wanderer2575

#1297
Quote from: thenetwork on June 11, 2024, 07:16:53 AM
Quote from: countysigns on June 10, 2024, 07:46:47 PMAs I traveled on the Ohio Turnpike on Sunday, a question came to mind... :hmmm:
Why was I-280 numbered I-280 versus I-X90?  I know I-80 and I-90 were supposed to have two different carriageways beginning around the Norwalk area but why did I-280 receive a I-X80 number?

Probably because parent I-80 is the lower number between it and I-90.

The bigger question is why was it not designated as an odd 3-digit route (i.e. I-180) as it does not loop around the city and is more of a spur route into Downtown Toledo?

It's not a spur.  Its northern terminus is at I-75 and it's part of a loop (with I-75 and the Turnpike).  It gets a substantial amount of use as a connector between the Turnpike to/from the east and I-75 to/from the north.

GCrites

Ohio doesn't do spurs.

The Ghostbuster

Wasn't Interstate 280 a very substandard freeway when it was first constructed? It originally had at-grade intersections and even a traffic signal. It also had some interchanges that were later removed.



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