I-11/US 93 - Boulder City Bypass

[Plutonic Panda]

"The 15 mile stretch of interstate goes through national park and we just can't do that kind of work anymore"  

Why? America is really loosing its "we can build anything"  mentality that made this country the envy of the world.

[sparker]

"The 15 mile stretch of interstate goes through national park and we just can't do that kind of work anymore"  

Why? America is really loosing its "we can build anything"  mentality that made this country the envy of the world.

The public lands to which the narrator is referring is the Lake Mead National Recreational Area; while the legal equivalent of a national park, these facilities tend to feature more access and less restriction regarding what can be built within the grounds.  The O'Callaghan-Tillman Bridge, opened 7 years ago, was the first section of this overall route to be built and opened; it's fully contained within the NRA; there was little or no publicized controversy regarding the bridge; the response was more along the lines of "I didn't think anyone could build a bridge over that canyon!"  When I-11 eventually extends fully into AZ, that bridge will be the highest on the Interstate system.   IMHO, while increasingly a rarity in this country, a massive endeavor such as I-11 does show at least a commitment to improvement.

[Alps]

i need to get one of these shields one day, 11 is my favorite number! 

I always knew I liked you. Who are you?

[SSR_317]

So I hear the US 95 to US 93 section (Phase 2) of the Boulder City Bypass is well ahead of schedule, with only the reconfigured tie-in at Nevada (Hoover Dam) Interchange left to go. Are they now just gonna wait until that is ready to open the short stretch between Railroad Pass Casino Road and US 95? What's the holdup there, it was supposed to be opened to traffic in April?

[theroadwayone]

"The 15 mile stretch of interstate goes through national park and we just can't do that kind of work anymore"  

Why? America is really loosing its "we can build anything"  mentality that made this country the envy of the world.

Any ways we can jump start that attitude?

[Plutonic Panda]

"The 15 mile stretch of interstate goes through national park and we just can't do that kind of work anymore"  

Why? America is really loosing its "we can build anything"  mentality that made this country the envy of the world.

The public lands to which the narrator is referring is the Lake Mead National Recreational Area; while the legal equivalent of a national park, these facilities tend to feature more access and less restriction regarding what can be built within the grounds.  The O'Callaghan-Tillman Bridge, opened 7 years ago, was the first section of this overall route to be built and opened; it's fully contained within the NRA; there was little or no publicized controversy regarding the bridge; the response was more along the lines of "I didn't think anyone could build a bridge over that canyon!"  When I-11 eventually extends fully into AZ, that bridge will be the highest on the Interstate system.   IMHO, while increasingly a rarity in this country, a massive endeavor such as I-11 does show at least a commitment to improvement.

I'm certainly not trying to advocate for the destruction of our national parks by putting interstates through them, but the attitude of the author of that article is shared too often. Would be nice to see a new Bay Bridge happen in 10 years or at least starting in 8, but I doubt it will even start for at least 15 or 20 years and that is very optimistic. Can't even build a 4 mile tunnel in LA. Have you seen some of the projects going on in Japan, Spain, Norway, and China? That's just a few examples but they are staring to put us to shame with some of their projects.

[Plutonic Panda]

"The 15 mile stretch of interstate goes through national park and we just can't do that kind of work anymore"  

Why? America is really loosing its "we can build anything"  mentality that made this country the envy of the world.

Any ways we can jump start that attitude?

I'm not a politician so my ideas will sound rather amateurish, but we still need to keep the environment in mind when building infrastructure but to a lesser extent, IMO, with major projects that are a big priority. Get rid of the bureaucratic red tape and don't let NIMBY's have as much as a say as they currently do. I don't know how to achieve those things, but I'm sure there is a way.

[theroadwayone]

"The 15 mile stretch of interstate goes through national park and we just can't do that kind of work anymore"  

Why? America is really loosing its "we can build anything"  mentality that made this country the envy of the world.

Any ways we can jump start that attitude?

I'm not a politician so my ideas will sound rather amateurish, but we still need to keep the environment in mind when building infrastructure but to a lesser extent, IMO, with major projects that are a big priority. Get rid of the bureaucratic red tape and don't let NIMBY's have as much as a say as they currently do. I don't know how to achieve those things, but I'm sure there is a way.

I'm not a politician either, but they do sound like good ideas. However, I don't see such changes coming without a big fight. Old ways of doing things die hard, so that won't be for a while.

[Plutonic Panda]

"The 15 mile stretch of interstate goes through national park and we just can't do that kind of work anymore"  

Why? America is really loosing its "we can build anything"  mentality that made this country the envy of the world.

Any ways we can jump start that attitude?

I'm not a politician so my ideas will sound rather amateurish, but we still need to keep the environment in mind when building infrastructure but to a lesser extent, IMO, with major projects that are a big priority. Get rid of the bureaucratic red tape and don't let NIMBY's have as much as a say as they currently do. I don't know how to achieve those things, but I'm sure there is a way.

I'm not a politician either, but they do sound like good ideas. However, I don't see such changes coming without a big fight. Old ways of doing things die hard, so that won't be for a while.

I just wonder when this all started. Surely it wasn't this hard to get things like the Golden Gate Bridge back then.

[roadfro]

So I hear the US 95 to US 93 section (Phase 2) of the Boulder City Bypass is well ahead of schedule, with only the reconfigured tie-in at Nevada (Hoover Dam) Interchange left to go. Are they now just gonna wait until that is ready to open the short stretch between Railroad Pass Casino Road and US 95? What's the holdup there, it was supposed to be opened to traffic in April?

There's probably something related to last-minute punch list details or in coordination with Phase 2 (I believe the majority of the US interchange work lies within the Phase 2 contract, so separate contractor and oversight). As far as I'm aware, it has always been said that the new alignment would be open from Henderson to the US 95 interchange at the conclusion of Phase 1.

[GreenLanternCorps]

When the bypass is complete are they going to sign I-11 from the state line to the 215/515 split?

[theroadwayone]

"The 15 mile stretch of interstate goes through national park and we just can't do that kind of work anymore"  

Why? America is really loosing its "we can build anything"  mentality that made this country the envy of the world.

Any ways we can jump start that attitude?

I'm not a politician so my ideas will sound rather amateurish, but we still need to keep the environment in mind when building infrastructure but to a lesser extent, IMO, with major projects that are a big priority. Get rid of the bureaucratic red tape and don't let NIMBY's have as much as a say as they currently do. I don't know how to achieve those things, but I'm sure there is a way.

I'm not a politician either, but they do sound like good ideas. However, I don't see such changes coming without a big fight. Old ways of doing things die hard, so that won't be for a while.

I just wonder when this all started. Surely it wasn't this hard to get things like the Golden Gate Bridge back then.

Probably back in the '60s-early '70s.

[Bobby5280]

The United States has created an entire food chain of bureaucrats, attorneys and other players that suck as much "blood" (money) out of a government funded infrastructure project as possible. All the studies, hearings, lawsuits, procedural delays and other crap just results in a whole lot of people not actually designing or building the highway getting paid big bucks. You can build a giant suspension bridge in China with state of the art engineering, top quality materials and workmanship for 1/10th the cost it would run in the United States. The legal and bureaucratic hang-ups are one of the biggest things driving up those costs here. We honestly don't have any national, big picture focus in the United States anymore. People can wave the flag all they like, but it's really a lot of BS. Our culture here in the United States anymore is "every man for himself." So many people involved in big infrastructure projects in the United States don't appear like they care about the project itself. They're just looking to get paid whether the project gets built or not.

[kkt]

The United States has created an entire food chain of bureaucrats, attorneys and other players that suck as much "blood" (money) out of a government funded infrastructure project as possible. All the studies, hearings, lawsuits, procedural delays and other crap just results in a whole lot of people not actually designing or building the highway getting paid big bucks. You can build a giant suspension bridge in China with state of the art engineering, top quality materials and workmanship for 1/10th the cost it would run in the United States. The legal and bureaucratic hang-ups are one of the biggest things driving up those costs here. We honestly don't have any national, big picture focus in the United States anymore. People can wave the flag all they like, but it's really a lot of BS. Our culture here in the United States anymore is "every man for himself." So many people involved in big infrastructure projects in the United States don't appear like they care about the project itself. They're just looking to get paid whether the project gets built or not.

Sure, it's amazing how cheap you can build when no one who has any brains opposes what the government wants to do, and there's no eminent domain process...

[Plutonic Panda]

The United States has created an entire food chain of bureaucrats, attorneys and other players that suck as much "blood" (money) out of a government funded infrastructure project as possible. All the studies, hearings, lawsuits, procedural delays and other crap just results in a whole lot of people not actually designing or building the highway getting paid big bucks. You can build a giant suspension bridge in China with state of the art engineering, top quality materials and workmanship for 1/10th the cost it would run in the United States. The legal and bureaucratic hang-ups are one of the biggest things driving up those costs here. We honestly don't have any national, big picture focus in the United States anymore. People can wave the flag all they like, but it's really a lot of BS. Our culture here in the United States anymore is "every man for himself." So many people involved in big infrastructure projects in the United States don't appear like they care about the project itself. They're just looking to get paid whether the project gets built or not.

Sure, it's amazing how cheap you can build when no one who has any brains opposes what the government wants to do, and there's no eminent domain process...

I am sure he knows this. I don't think he's advocating for that either, not to put words in people's mouths. But there needs to be middle ground here.

[skluth]

The United States has created an entire food chain of bureaucrats, attorneys and other players that suck as much "blood" (money) out of a government funded infrastructure project as possible. All the studies, hearings, lawsuits, procedural delays and other crap just results in a whole lot of people not actually designing or building the highway getting paid big bucks. You can build a giant suspension bridge in China with state of the art engineering, top quality materials and workmanship for 1/10th the cost it would run in the United States. The legal and bureaucratic hang-ups are one of the biggest things driving up those costs here. We honestly don't have any national, big picture focus in the United States anymore. People can wave the flag all they like, but it's really a lot of BS. Our culture here in the United States anymore is "every man for himself." So many people involved in big infrastructure projects in the United States don't appear like they care about the project itself. They're just looking to get paid whether the project gets built or not.

Sure, it's amazing how cheap you can build when no one who has any brains opposes what the government wants to do, and there's no eminent domain process...

I am sure he knows this. I don't think he's advocating for that either, not to put words in people's mouths. But there needs to be middle ground here.

That's basically where I'm at. I see the need for environmental impact statements (I even trained in college to write them), NIMBYs to protect important and historic properties, and the ability to stop projects when something of significance is discovered during construction. I can also see the need to build new highways including limited highway expansion in parks, especially national recreation areas where a highway improvement funnels traffic to and through areas that don't much affect the appeal of the park (like Lake Mead). The process needs to be fixed regardless as it's entirely broken.

[Bobby5280]

There's nothing wrong with doing public hearings, environmental studies, etc. But there really is no need whatsoever for a proposed highway project to be hung up literally for decades by a never ending soap opera of court room proceedings (which endlessly pay a bunch of bureaucrats a lot of money for literally producing nothing of value).

The United States is so badly stuck in the mud, beyond axles deep, with this nonsense. It practically takes a miracle for the US to build any big things anymore. Meanwhile other countries (like China) for instance are building up their infrastructure at a pace we haven't come close to matching in over 50 years. Our citizens do so much flag waving, talk about patriotism and how the U-S-of-A is the best at everything. They act like it's impossible for our nation not to be the most powerful country on the planet, even though the US has been in that position for only 70-100 years, depending on how you measure such an arguably subjective thing. Other nations are going to sneak right on past us while we're busy patting ourselves on the back. We already have a pretty serious short fall of engineers in this nation. If most of the growth of massive construction projects is happening on other continents our best and brightest in the construction and engineering fields are going to move where the action is.

[theroadwayone]

There's nothing wrong with doing public hearings, environmental studies, etc. But there really is no need whatsoever for a proposed highway project to be hung up literally for decades by a never ending soap opera of court room proceedings (which endlessly pay a bunch of bureaucrats a lot of money for literally producing nothing of value).

The United States is so badly stuck in the mud, beyond axles deep, with this nonsense. It practically takes a miracle for the US to build any big things anymore. Meanwhile other countries (like China) for instance are building up their infrastructure at a pace we haven't come close to matching in over 50 years. Our citizens do so much flag waving, talk about patriotism and how the U-S-of-A is the best at everything. They act like it's impossible for our nation not to be the most powerful country on the planet, even though the US has been in that position for only 70-100 years, depending on how you measure such an arguably subjective thing. Other nations are going to sneak right on past us while we're busy patting ourselves on the back. We already have a pretty serious short fall of engineers in this nation. If most of the growth of massive construction projects is happening on other continents our best and brightest in the construction and engineering fields are going to move where the action is.

I'd like to drink to that.

[kkt]

I do think parks deserve strong protection, however National Recreation Areas are not parks.  Some are under the National Park Service but many are under the Forest Service or BLM.  The lakes created by dams are not nature to be preserved - the dams are artificial and require maintenance and roads, the desert oasis is artificial, much of the recreation on them is power boats.  None of that is bad, but it's not some pristine wilderness where a highway is going to disturb nature.

Most of the places new roads are desirable are NOT parks or wilderness areas, contrary to the Fictional Highways plans of some.  The most common problem is urban or suburban areas where no ROW has been set aside, and assembling a ROW now would be terribly expensive and unpopular.

[sparker]

I do think parks deserve strong protection, however National Recreation Areas are not parks.  Some are under the National Park Service but many are under the Forest Service or BLM.  The lakes created by dams are not nature to be preserved - the dams are artificial and require maintenance and roads, the desert oasis is artificial, much of the recreation on them is power boats.  None of that is bad, but it's not some pristine wilderness where a highway is going to disturb nature.

Most of the places new roads are desirable are NOT parks or wilderness areas, contrary to the Fictional Highways plans of some.  The most common problem is urban or suburban areas where no ROW has been set aside, and assembling a ROW now would be terribly expensive and unpopular.

In the case of the particular area traversed by I-11, access to Lake Mead and the Colorado River gorge downstream from Hoover Dam has been longstanding, starting with US 466 (with US 93 added later) over the top of the dam back in the '30's when the structure was completed.  That area has been used for recreation for over 80 years; precedent has long been set.  Ironically, the presence of the O'Callaghan/Tillman I-11 bridge may even have the effect of reducing the "casual" use of the recreational area inasmuch as it provides an efficient through-traffic bypass of the former dam-top US 93 -- where drivers were pretty much forced to slog through the heart of the recreational area (and many of them would actually stop to get out and take photos or walk across the dam if not to actually take a tour of the dam itself -- hard to resist at 15mph).  But if one is on their way to Vegas from Phoenix or I-40 points, it's now easy to just slide by the dam and recreational area -- and even easier once Boulder City is bypassed (for better or worse, just the thing for those destination-oriented travelers!).  The rec area, the dam, and Lake Mead in general, will likely become a deliberate destination rather than a "as long as we're here....." sideshow.     

[Bobby5280]

Another thing worth mentioning about these parks, roads aren't the biggest enemy. It's the people in the parks. People throw trash all over the place like they don't give a damn. And then they'll deface all sorts of things, like very old trees or even an iconic rock formation many thousands of years old. A highway that carries some of these turds around the preserve, encouraging them not to stop and get home faster, might be a good thing.

[SSR_317]

When the bypass is complete are they going to sign I-11 from the state line to the 215/515 split?

Yes, I recall seeing a separate contract listed somewhere on the NDOT website that deals with the re-signing of I-215 between the Henderson Spaghetti Bowl and the start of the Boulder City Bypass at the Foothills grade separation (Paradise Hills Dr), and it is funded for completion in 2018. Not sure if that contract covers the 2 miles of US 93 freeway from the Bridge to the Nevada (Hoover Dam) Interchange, but that may be or may not be included in the BCB Phase II project budget. But by the end of the year it will likely all be signed as I-11.

[sparker]

When the bypass is complete are they going to sign I-11 from the state line to the 215/515 split?

Yes, I recall seeing a separate contract listed somewhere on the NDOT website that deals with the re-signing of I-215 between the Henderson Spaghetti Bowl and the start of the Boulder City Bypass at the Foothills grade separation (Paradise Hills Dr), and it is funded for completion in 2018. Not sure if that contract covers the 2 miles of US 93 freeway from the Bridge to the Nevada (Hoover Dam) Interchange, but that may be or may not be included in the BCB Phase II project budget. But by the end of the year it will likely all be signed as I-11.

Does anyone know if AZ is planning to sign their portion of the freeway approach to the O'Callaghan/Tillman bridge as I-11? 

[silverback1065]

I agree with most of the sentiment over the environment, I want to preserve it as much as possible, but some things they make us do are just a waste of time, and just make the project cost more.  I can't tell you how many permits I have had to file for small projects that will not adversely affect the environment, I wish more nuance were put into the projects that require them.  For example, a simple sidewalk job should not need a rule 5 permit, but a new terrain route like I-11 would. 

[kdk]

When the bypass is complete are they going to sign I-11 from the state line to the 215/515 split?

Yes, I recall seeing a separate contract listed somewhere on the NDOT website that deals with the re-signing of I-215 between the Henderson Spaghetti Bowl and the start of the Boulder City Bypass at the Foothills grade separation (Paradise Hills Dr), and it is funded for completion in 2018. Not sure if that contract covers the 2 miles of US 93 freeway from the Bridge to the Nevada (Hoover Dam) Interchange, but that may be or may not be included in the BCB Phase II project budget. But by the end of the year it will likely all be signed as I-11.

Does anyone know if AZ is planning to sign their portion of the freeway approach to the O'Callaghan/Tillman bridge as I-11?

From what i understand no, other than the "Future i-11" signs they already have.  They probably could being the first 10 miles are up to freeway standard but it's not planned.

On another note, I drove this earlier this week.  Heading from AZ into Las Vegas is a bit easier being that you no longer have to go through the stoplight in front of Railroad Pass now that you drive on the new lanes.

However, the what seems to be the constantly moving chokepoint over there seemed to move onto the freeway.  Based on my observation, the new I-11 with only two lanes each way from Railroad Pass up to the Boulder Hwy exit seems to be inadequate already.  With all the Boulder City, US 93 and US 95 traffic funneling into two lanes for a few miles, speeds were down to 30 mph on a midweek afternoon.  There were no incidents either.  Once you get up to Boulder Hwy I-11/I-515 opens up to three lanes and traffic sped up to the speed limit then.  It looks like it was designed to be able to add a third lane based on the widths of the underpasses, but it seems it should have been built now.