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Author Topic: I-49 Coming to Missouri  (Read 410852 times)

Scott5114

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1150 on: December 06, 2021, 04:31:33 PM »

I'm surprised the thread title hasn't been updated by now, since I-49 has fully arrived in MO (with the possible future exception of the Bruce Watkins at-grades being converted in Kansas City)

Should be quite a while before/if that occurs.
Does anyone know the reason why US 71 in KC was not built to a full freeway?

MoDOT lost a court case brought by local residents that didn't want the freeway. Should be fairly well documented if you search for Bruce Watkins Drive.
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edwaleni

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1151 on: December 06, 2021, 05:04:46 PM »

I'm surprised the thread title hasn't been updated by now, since I-49 has fully arrived in MO (with the possible future exception of the Bruce Watkins at-grades being converted in Kansas City)

Should be quite a while before/if that occurs.
Does anyone know the reason why US 71 in KC was not built to a full freeway?

MoDOT lost a court case brought by local residents that didn't want the freeway. Should be fairly well documented if you search for Bruce Watkins Drive.

Or putting it in other words, what MoDOT would have had to spend to remediate the residents concerns would have made the road uneconomic.
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Scott5114

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1152 on: December 06, 2021, 05:23:57 PM »

I'm surprised the thread title hasn't been updated by now, since I-49 has fully arrived in MO (with the possible future exception of the Bruce Watkins at-grades being converted in Kansas City)

Should be quite a while before/if that occurs.
Does anyone know the reason why US 71 in KC was not built to a full freeway?

MoDOT lost a court case brought by local residents that didn't want the freeway. Should be fairly well documented if you search for Bruce Watkins Drive.

Or putting it in other words, what MoDOT would have had to spend to remediate the residents concerns would have made the road uneconomic.

MoDOT could have $999 trillion to spend and it wouldn't make a difference. They're legally unable to build a freeway by court order.
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edwaleni

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1153 on: December 06, 2021, 05:25:36 PM »

I'm surprised the thread title hasn't been updated by now, since I-49 has fully arrived in MO (with the possible future exception of the Bruce Watkins at-grades being converted in Kansas City)

Should be quite a while before/if that occurs.
Does anyone know the reason why US 71 in KC was not built to a full freeway?

MoDOT lost a court case brought by local residents that didn't want the freeway. Should be fairly well documented if you search for Bruce Watkins Drive.

Or putting it in other words, what MoDOT would have had to spend to remediate the residents concerns would have made the road uneconomic.

MoDOT could have $999 trillion to spend and it wouldn't make a difference. They're legally unable to build a freeway by court order.

Absolutely. I was thinking pre-lawsuits.
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mgk920

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1154 on: December 06, 2021, 08:23:09 PM »

I'm surprised the thread title hasn't been updated by now, since I-49 has fully arrived in MO (with the possible future exception of the Bruce Watkins at-grades being converted in Kansas City)

Should be quite a while before/if that occurs.
Does anyone know the reason why US 71 in KC was not built to a full freeway?

It was the exact same reason why large sections of the freeway system that was planned for Metro Milwaukee were never completed.

Mike
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Henry

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1155 on: December 06, 2021, 08:23:33 PM »

I'm surprised the thread title hasn't been updated by now, since I-49 has fully arrived in MO (with the possible future exception of the Bruce Watkins at-grades being converted in Kansas City)

Should be quite a while before/if that occurs.
Does anyone know the reason why US 71 in KC was not built to a full freeway?

MoDOT lost a court case brought by local residents that didn't want the freeway. Should be fairly well documented if you search for Bruce Watkins Drive.

Or putting it in other words, what MoDOT would have had to spend to remediate the residents concerns would have made the road uneconomic.

MoDOT could have $999 trillion to spend and it wouldn't make a difference. They're legally unable to build a freeway by court order.
Not to nitpick or anything, but because of that, I-49 will end at I-470 forever.
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Scott5114

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1156 on: December 06, 2021, 08:26:08 PM »

I'm surprised the thread title hasn't been updated by now, since I-49 has fully arrived in MO (with the possible future exception of the Bruce Watkins at-grades being converted in Kansas City)

Should be quite a while before/if that occurs.
Does anyone know the reason why US 71 in KC was not built to a full freeway?

MoDOT lost a court case brought by local residents that didn't want the freeway. Should be fairly well documented if you search for Bruce Watkins Drive.

Or putting it in other words, what MoDOT would have had to spend to remediate the residents concerns would have made the road uneconomic.

MoDOT could have $999 trillion to spend and it wouldn't make a difference. They're legally unable to build a freeway by court order.
Not to nitpick or anything, but because of that, I-49 will end at I-470 forever.

To nitpick or anything, it actually will end at I-435 forever ;)
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mgk920

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1157 on: December 06, 2021, 08:31:38 PM »

I'm surprised the thread title hasn't been updated by now, since I-49 has fully arrived in MO (with the possible future exception of the Bruce Watkins at-grades being converted in Kansas City)

Should be quite a while before/if that occurs.
Does anyone know the reason why US 71 in KC was not built to a full freeway?

MoDOT lost a court case brought by local residents that didn't want the freeway. Should be fairly well documented if you search for Bruce Watkins Drive.

Or putting it in other words, what MoDOT would have had to spend to remediate the residents concerns would have made the road uneconomic.

MoDOT could have $999 trillion to spend and it wouldn't make a difference. They're legally unable to build a freeway by court order.
Not to nitpick or anything, but because of that, I-49 will end at I-470 forever.

Never say 'Never'.  In a few decades, anyone with any direct memories of what happened back them will be gone and generations yet to come will look at the situation and start asking serious questions....

Mike
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edwaleni

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1158 on: December 06, 2021, 08:52:43 PM »



MP0 for I-49 South laying on the ground,  exactly .8 mi north of I-435. Go nuts.
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mvak36

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1159 on: December 07, 2021, 08:21:19 PM »

I'm surprised the thread title hasn't been updated by now, since I-49 has fully arrived in MO (with the possible future exception of the Bruce Watkins at-grades being converted in Kansas City)

Should be quite a while before/if that occurs.
Does anyone know the reason why US 71 in KC was not built to a full freeway?

MoDOT lost a court case brought by local residents that didn't want the freeway. Should be fairly well documented if you search for Bruce Watkins Drive.

Or putting it in other words, what MoDOT would have had to spend to remediate the residents concerns would have made the road uneconomic.

MoDOT could have $999 trillion to spend and it wouldn't make a difference. They're legally unable to build a freeway by court order.
Not to nitpick or anything, but because of that, I-49 will end at I-470 forever.

Never say 'Never'.  In a few decades, anyone with any direct memories of what happened back them will be gone and generations yet to come will look at the situation and start asking serious questions....

Mike

I went to the public meeting today here in KC for the High Priority Unfunded Needs. I spoke with a MODOT representative about the Bruce R. Watkins project and they said the city came to them asking for improvements for pedestrians (bridge over the highway, etc.,). They did say that if the court order was ever removed and the city ever asked them to build a freeway for that section, they would be more than happy to oblige :).

Most interesting/entertaining part of the meeting was some guy was there that wasn't happy about I-49 being only two lanes in northern Cass County (155th St to North Cass Parkway). He was not happy that it was in Tier 3 and nearly blew a gasket when they said the Tier 3 projects would take about 10 years before they get to construction and was saying that his project was more deserving than the Bruce Watkins one (even though they were both in the same Tier 3). MODOT had a board up saying that the estimated cost would be 21 million, but the guy didn't know about that and said that he will get a contractor to do estimates :-D.
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edwaleni

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1160 on: December 07, 2021, 10:23:51 PM »


I went to the public meeting today here in KC for the High Priority Unfunded Needs. I spoke with a MODOT representative about the Bruce R. Watkins project and they said the city came to them asking for improvements for pedestrians (bridge over the highway, etc.,). They did say that if the court order was ever removed and the city ever asked them to build a freeway for that section, they would be more than happy to oblige :).

Most interesting/entertaining part of the meeting was some guy was there that wasn't happy about I-49 being only two lanes in northern Cass County (155th St to North Cass Parkway). He was not happy that it was in Tier 3 and nearly blew a gasket when they said the Tier 3 projects would take about 10 years before they get to construction and was saying that his project was more deserving than the Bruce Watkins one (even though they were both in the same Tier 3). MODOT had a board up saying that the estimated cost would be 21 million, but the guy didn't know about that and said that he will get a contractor to do estimates :-D.

I completely get it, some taxpayers think it's all about them and they certainly deserve to be heard in the hearings.

But then again there are those who are a tad self-absorbed as to exactly what they think their demands are going to bring.

Sometimes it is fun to watch these people fire off like a 14 inch cannon about what they deserve.

But there are some Karens who certainly arrive with a burr in their saddle and those are the ones I would like to avoid.

I do recall a hearing where it was the most educated audience, the questions were direct and to the point. There were no emotions, and this led to some very candid feedback from the environmental and highway engineering representatives.

But when the volcanos arrive, these same engineers would tighten their lips and reduce the feedback to the bare necessities. Very disappointing.
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mvak36

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1161 on: December 07, 2021, 10:30:37 PM »


I went to the public meeting today here in KC for the High Priority Unfunded Needs. I spoke with a MODOT representative about the Bruce R. Watkins project and they said the city came to them asking for improvements for pedestrians (bridge over the highway, etc.,). They did say that if the court order was ever removed and the city ever asked them to build a freeway for that section, they would be more than happy to oblige :).

Most interesting/entertaining part of the meeting was some guy was there that wasn't happy about I-49 being only two lanes in northern Cass County (155th St to North Cass Parkway). He was not happy that it was in Tier 3 and nearly blew a gasket when they said the Tier 3 projects would take about 10 years before they get to construction and was saying that his project was more deserving than the Bruce Watkins one (even though they were both in the same Tier 3). MODOT had a board up saying that the estimated cost would be 21 million, but the guy didn't know about that and said that he will get a contractor to do estimates :-D.

I completely get it, some taxpayers think it's all about them and they certainly deserve to be heard in the hearings.

But then again there are those who are a tad self-absorbed as to exactly what they think their demands are going to bring.

Sometimes it is fun to watch these people fire off like a 14 inch cannon about what they deserve.

But there are some Karens who certainly arrive with a burr in their saddle and those are the ones I would like to avoid.

I do recall a hearing where it was the most educated audience, the questions were direct and to the point. There were no emotions, and this led to some very candid feedback from the environmental and highway engineering representatives.

But when the volcanos arrive, these same engineers would tighten their lips and reduce the feedback to the bare necessities. Very disappointing.
I think it was just the way he said it. There were others there who were saying it needed widening but they were calm instead of just shouting.
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route56

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1162 on: December 09, 2021, 06:23:09 PM »

Does anyone know the reason why US 71 in KC was not built to a full freeway?

tl;dr: Neighborhood opposition and lawsuits led to a consent decree that MoDOT would build the Bruce R. Watkins Parkway the way they did. At a minimum, it would take a multi-year EIS process to upgrade it to a fully controlled access facility.
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skluth

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1163 on: December 09, 2021, 09:27:41 PM »

Does anyone know the reason why US 71 in KC was not built to a full freeway?

tl;dr: Neighborhood opposition and lawsuits led to a consent decree that MoDOT would build the Bruce R. Watkins Parkway the way they did. At a minimum, it would take a multi-year EIS process to upgrade it to a fully controlled access facility.

Or, as this government-speak description has it
Quote
Watkins Drive is a 10.2-mile showcase artery linking downtown to southtown and handles up to 62,000 vehicles a day. This parkway is one of the nation's largest urban roadway landscaping projects, making Bruce R. Watkins as attractive as it is functional and easing the traffic throughout Kansas City. Its completion also provides residents with an alternative route that avoids busy Interstates and city streets, thus facilitating traffic flow throughout the city and the surrounding areas.

I couldn't make this stuff up.
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STLmapboy

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1164 on: December 09, 2021, 11:05:59 PM »

Does anyone know the reason why US 71 in KC was not built to a full freeway?

tl;dr: Neighborhood opposition and lawsuits led to a consent decree that MoDOT would build the Bruce R. Watkins Parkway the way they did. At a minimum, it would take a multi-year EIS process to upgrade it to a fully controlled access facility.

Or, as this government-speak description has it
Quote
Watkins Drive is a 10.2-mile showcase artery linking downtown to southtown and handles up to 62,000 vehicles a day. This parkway is one of the nation's largest urban roadway landscaping projects, making Bruce R. Watkins as attractive as it is functional and easing the traffic throughout Kansas City. Its completion also provides residents with an alternative route that avoids busy Interstates and city streets, thus facilitating traffic flow throughout the city and the surrounding areas.

I couldn't make this stuff up.
"Attractive as it is functional?" Holy shit, these guys could spin a murder as a positive thing.
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Scott5114

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1165 on: December 09, 2021, 11:42:06 PM »

Does anyone know the reason why US 71 in KC was not built to a full freeway?

tl;dr: Neighborhood opposition and lawsuits led to a consent decree that MoDOT would build the Bruce R. Watkins Parkway the way they did. At a minimum, it would take a multi-year EIS process to upgrade it to a fully controlled access facility.

Or, as this government-speak description has it
Quote
Watkins Drive is a 10.2-mile showcase artery linking downtown to southtown and handles up to 62,000 vehicles a day. This parkway is one of the nation's largest urban roadway landscaping projects, making Bruce R. Watkins as attractive as it is functional and easing the traffic throughout Kansas City. Its completion also provides residents with an alternative route that avoids busy Interstates and city streets, thus facilitating traffic flow throughout the city and the surrounding areas.

I couldn't make this stuff up.

That's not government-speak; not enough inscrutable acronyms. No, my friends, the truth is something much more terrifying and hideous.

They hired a marketing major.
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mvak36

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1166 on: December 10, 2021, 12:24:01 AM »

I keep wondering if they build like some sort of park over the highway like they did in St Louis near the Arch if that would be enough to keep people happy. It won't be cheap but people won't be complaining about an eyesore and traffic flows freely underneath.
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MikieTimT

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1167 on: December 10, 2021, 08:26:28 AM »

I keep wondering if they build like some sort of park over the highway like they did in St Louis near the Arch if that would be enough to keep people happy. It won't be cheap but people won't be complaining about an eyesore and traffic flows freely underneath.

Nothing brings a neighborhood together better than a park!
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edwaleni

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1168 on: December 10, 2021, 02:49:05 PM »

I keep wondering if they build like some sort of park over the highway like they did in St Louis near the Arch if that would be enough to keep people happy. It won't be cheap but people won't be complaining about an eyesore and traffic flows freely underneath.

I agree. I don't know if it was ever offered, or if the lawsuits just went nuts before it ever got that far.

There are tons of examples of "cut and cover" highways where parks were built on top.

Having driven it, the road today sits on a ridge, seems a perfect candidate for a over road park.
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ozarkman417

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1169 on: December 14, 2021, 10:01:42 PM »

It was brought up by MikieTimT a while ago, but the new freeway will likely help McDonald County reenter the NWA Metro. It was removed in late 2018.

Apparently, this is a requirement for a county to be part of a metropolitan area:

"requires a county to have at least 25 percent of its population commuting to work to a county in a metro region to be included in the same region"

With such a small and sparse population, whether this comes about for McDonald County is likely going to depend on if new residents and developments come about in towns like Anderson or Pineville as a result of a much faster and less congested (much more commuter friendly) facility being available.

It does make me wonder how the existing stores near the State Line in Jane (particularly the national chains like McD's) will fare and if they will build new locations closer to the Bypass.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2021, 10:09:18 PM by ozarkman417 »
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ztonyg

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1170 on: December 15, 2021, 11:45:54 PM »

I keep wondering if they build like some sort of park over the highway like they did in St Louis near the Arch if that would be enough to keep people happy. It won't be cheap but people won't be complaining about an eyesore and traffic flows freely underneath.

I agree. I don't know if it was ever offered, or if the lawsuits just went nuts before it ever got that far.

There are tons of examples of "cut and cover" highways where parks were built on top.

Having driven it, the road today sits on a ridge, seems a perfect candidate for a over road park.

What's ridiculously stupid is that the ROW exists for completing the freeway and nothing would be disconnected as it appears that they have Texas style frontage roads in place already. It would require 3 bridges, some slip ramps to the frontage road, and a mainline to be built in the existing ROW (which looks like it's even graded for the freeway). 
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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1171 on: December 16, 2021, 12:34:26 PM »

I keep wondering if they build like some sort of park over the highway like they did in St Louis near the Arch if that would be enough to keep people happy. It won't be cheap but people won't be complaining about an eyesore and traffic flows freely underneath.

I agree. I don't know if it was ever offered, or if the lawsuits just went nuts before it ever got that far.

There are tons of examples of "cut and cover" highways where parks were built on top.

Having driven it, the road today sits on a ridge, seems a perfect candidate for a over road park.
If the argument in the lawsuits was "A freeway will divide the community", I feel like a cut-and-cover project would actually unite it more than it is now. If I was a pedestrian in that area, I wouldn't want to cross over unless I absolutely had to.
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Scott5114

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1172 on: December 16, 2021, 12:59:28 PM »

Watkins Drive has been the way it is for long enough I'm not even sure if cut-and-cover tunnels were a regular part of the highway department arsenal yet.
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MikieTimT

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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1173 on: December 16, 2021, 02:54:02 PM »

Watkins Drive has been the way it is for long enough I'm not even sure if cut-and-cover tunnels were a regular part of the highway department arsenal yet.

Even if it isn't in the arsenal, it can be farmed out design/build to entities outside the state without much issue as there are contractors with that expertise out there.  The main issue is the consent decree that would have to be reversed, and there doesn't seem to be enough of an organized local push to revisit for this process to even be considered.  As much as this bristles the roadgeek community here, the status quo isn't likely to change for another 3 decades barring a horrific accident rate or the death of someone important at that intersection.
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Re: I-49 Coming to Missouri
« Reply #1174 on: December 17, 2021, 04:38:35 PM »

Watkins Drive has been the way it is for long enough I'm not even sure if cut-and-cover tunnels were a regular part of the highway department arsenal yet.

Even if it isn't in the arsenal, it can be farmed out design/build to entities outside the state without much issue as there are contractors with that expertise out there.  The main issue is the consent decree that would have to be reversed, and there doesn't seem to be enough of an organized local push to revisit for this process to even be considered.  As much as this bristles the roadgeek community here, the status quo isn't likely to change for another 3 decades barring a horrific accident rate or the death of someone important at that intersection.

There have been plenty of accidents along the Watkins corridor. I remember a particularly gruesome accident at Gregory Blvd back when I lived in St Louis that made our local news though it may just have been a slow news day.

Missouri is too cheap to pay for a park over the highway like in Phoenix or even in St Louis. The St Louis Arch project was paid for in part by private donations and special taxes, though I believe MODOT did pay for the new ramps at Washington.
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