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[MikieTimT]

Watkins Drive has been the way it is for long enough I'm not even sure if cut-and-cover tunnels were a regular part of the highway department arsenal yet.

Even if it isn't in the arsenal, it can be farmed out design/build to entities outside the state without much issue as there are contractors with that expertise out there.  The main issue is the consent decree that would have to be reversed, and there doesn't seem to be enough of an organized local push to revisit for this process to even be considered.  As much as this bristles the roadgeek community here, the status quo isn't likely to change for another 3 decades barring a horrific accident rate or the death of someone important at that intersection.

There have been plenty of accidents along the Watkins corridor. I remember a particularly gruesome accident at Gregory Blvd back when I lived in St Louis that made our local news though it may just have been a slow news day.

Missouri is too cheap to pay for a park over the highway like in Phoenix or even in St Louis. The St Louis Arch project was paid for in part by private donations and special taxes, though I believe MODOT did pay for the new ramps at Washington.

Sounds like a crowdfunding IndieGoGo type of project before it'd be feasible then.  Interested people vote with their pocketbooks and if the kitty gets big enough, suddenly everyone would be interested in seeing the project come to light. Otherwise, I-49 is done in MO, other than the glaring need to reroute it in Carthage/Joplin along MO-249/171 and build the proper interchange with I-49 in Carthage.

[skluth]

Watkins Drive has been the way it is for long enough I'm not even sure if cut-and-cover tunnels were a regular part of the highway department arsenal yet.

Even if it isn't in the arsenal, it can be farmed out design/build to entities outside the state without much issue as there are contractors with that expertise out there.  The main issue is the consent decree that would have to be reversed, and there doesn't seem to be enough of an organized local push to revisit for this process to even be considered.  As much as this bristles the roadgeek community here, the status quo isn't likely to change for another 3 decades barring a horrific accident rate or the death of someone important at that intersection.

There have been plenty of accidents along the Watkins corridor. I remember a particularly gruesome accident at Gregory Blvd back when I lived in St Louis that made our local news though it may just have been a slow news day.

Missouri is too cheap to pay for a park over the highway like in Phoenix or even in St Louis. The St Louis Arch project was paid for in part by private donations and special taxes, though I believe MODOT did pay for the new ramps at Washington.

Sounds like a crowdfunding IndieGoGo type of project before it'd be feasible then.  Interested people vote with their pocketbooks and if the kitty gets big enough, suddenly everyone would be interested in seeing the project come to light. Otherwise, I-49 is done in MO, other than the glaring need to reroute it in Carthage/Joplin along MO-249/171 and build the proper interchange with I-49 in Carthage.

Routing I-49 along MO 249/171 would be nice to have but it's not a glaring need. High-speed ramps already exist for I-49 traffic at Joplin so I-49 only needs upgraded ramps connecting to I-44 south of Carthage. The I-44/49 concurrency has enough space to be easily widened to six lanes (and both I-44 and I-70 should be widened to six lanes across Missouri with all the truck traffic). All those NWA businesses pay Arkansas taxes so MODOT isn't going to prioritize their business needs. I don't see a business case for Missouri until Arkansas completes I-49 between Ft Smith and Texarkana so that it pulls traffic from the crowded I-35/44 route from Texas.

[MikieTimT]

Watkins Drive has been the way it is for long enough I'm not even sure if cut-and-cover tunnels were a regular part of the highway department arsenal yet.

Even if it isn't in the arsenal, it can be farmed out design/build to entities outside the state without much issue as there are contractors with that expertise out there.  The main issue is the consent decree that would have to be reversed, and there doesn't seem to be enough of an organized local push to revisit for this process to even be considered.  As much as this bristles the roadgeek community here, the status quo isn't likely to change for another 3 decades barring a horrific accident rate or the death of someone important at that intersection.

There have been plenty of accidents along the Watkins corridor. I remember a particularly gruesome accident at Gregory Blvd back when I lived in St Louis that made our local news though it may just have been a slow news day.

Missouri is too cheap to pay for a park over the highway like in Phoenix or even in St Louis. The St Louis Arch project was paid for in part by private donations and special taxes, though I believe MODOT did pay for the new ramps at Washington.

Sounds like a crowdfunding IndieGoGo type of project before it'd be feasible then.  Interested people vote with their pocketbooks and if the kitty gets big enough, suddenly everyone would be interested in seeing the project come to light. Otherwise, I-49 is done in MO, other than the glaring need to reroute it in Carthage/Joplin along MO-249/171 and build the proper interchange with I-49 in Carthage.

Routing I-49 along MO 249/171 would be nice to have but it's not a glaring need. High-speed ramps already exist for I-49 traffic at Joplin so I-49 only needs upgraded ramps connecting to I-44 south of Carthage. The I-44/49 concurrency has enough space to be easily widened to six lanes (and both I-44 and I-70 should be widened to six lanes across Missouri with all the truck traffic). All those NWA businesses pay Arkansas taxes so MODOT isn't going to prioritize their business needs. I don't see a business case for Missouri until Arkansas completes I-49 between Ft Smith and Texarkana so that it pulls traffic from the crowded I-35/44 route from Texas.

It's not that bad southbound as you may be able to turn right on red coming off the offramp without stopping, but northbound, it's 2 stoplights, one of which is a left turn that takes a bit.  The I-49 northern interchange is a cloverleaf that's pretty slow and tight, and the concurrency between the 2 I-49's is always pretty congested, so I always take Business I-49/MO-249 as it's faster and more direct.  With a decent interchange in Carthage, it's a no-brainer to move I-49 to it.  Google Maps will always route you onto it for that same reason regardless of designation.

[skluth]

Watkins Drive has been the way it is for long enough I'm not even sure if cut-and-cover tunnels were a regular part of the highway department arsenal yet.

Even if it isn't in the arsenal, it can be farmed out design/build to entities outside the state without much issue as there are contractors with that expertise out there.  The main issue is the consent decree that would have to be reversed, and there doesn't seem to be enough of an organized local push to revisit for this process to even be considered.  As much as this bristles the roadgeek community here, the status quo isn't likely to change for another 3 decades barring a horrific accident rate or the death of someone important at that intersection.

There have been plenty of accidents along the Watkins corridor. I remember a particularly gruesome accident at Gregory Blvd back when I lived in St Louis that made our local news though it may just have been a slow news day.

Missouri is too cheap to pay for a park over the highway like in Phoenix or even in St Louis. The St Louis Arch project was paid for in part by private donations and special taxes, though I believe MODOT did pay for the new ramps at Washington.

Sounds like a crowdfunding IndieGoGo type of project before it'd be feasible then.  Interested people vote with their pocketbooks and if the kitty gets big enough, suddenly everyone would be interested in seeing the project come to light. Otherwise, I-49 is done in MO, other than the glaring need to reroute it in Carthage/Joplin along MO-249/171 and build the proper interchange with I-49 in Carthage.

Routing I-49 along MO 249/171 would be nice to have but it's not a glaring need. High-speed ramps already exist for I-49 traffic at Joplin so I-49 only needs upgraded ramps connecting to I-44 south of Carthage. The I-44/49 concurrency has enough space to be easily widened to six lanes (and both I-44 and I-70 should be widened to six lanes across Missouri with all the truck traffic). All those NWA businesses pay Arkansas taxes so MODOT isn't going to prioritize their business needs. I don't see a business case for Missouri until Arkansas completes I-49 between Ft Smith and Texarkana so that it pulls traffic from the crowded I-35/44 route from Texas.

It's not that bad southbound as you may be able to turn right on red coming off the offramp without stopping, but northbound, it's 2 stoplights, one of which is a left turn that takes a bit.  The I-49 northern interchange is a cloverleaf that's pretty slow and tight, and the concurrency between the 2 I-49's is always pretty congested, so I always take Business I-49/MO-249 as it's faster and more direct.  With a decent interchange in Carthage, it's a no-brainer to move I-49 to it.  Google Maps will always route you onto it for that same reason regardless of designation.

It's already nonstop on the current routing which is why it's only nice to have and not needed. I also said that NB I-49 cloverleaf ramp should be upgraded; my preference would be a high-speed ramp like the WB I-44/49 to SB I-49 ramp south of Joplin. I have no doubts the concurrency is congested but so is most of I-44 in Missouri (which I said should be six lanes across the state). The AADT on the NB ramp from MO 96 to I-49 at Carthage is under 2500 and that handles traffic from both directions on MO 96. There's not enough traffic to justify a high-speed ramp at the present. That you like taking an alternate routing and Google Maps also likes that routing is not a reason to reroute a highway.

Honestly, I think it would be better to renumber that routing I-249 (replacing the MO 249 and MO 171 designations and keeping the MO 96 section as a concurrency) so drivers know it's a freeway even if Carthage would be a Breezewood until that intersection is upgraded. There are plenty of 3dis that are better than the main line (e.g., I-270 vs I-70 at St Louis, I-295 vs I-64 at Richmond, VA). Who knows? If enough drivers start using your way, those stoplights will become more backed up and locals will push for the interchange upgrade.

[apjung]

Google Maps now has Bella Vista Bypass imagery

[MikieTimT]

Google Maps now has Bella Vista Bypass imagery

Google Earth and Google Maps webapp look terrible with the roads being pressed down into the terrain.  Don't know if it's a setting, of they need to do some better processing of the images.

[skluth]

Google Maps now has Bella Vista Bypass imagery

Google Earth and Google Maps webapp look terrible with the roads being pressed down into the terrain.  Don't know if it's a setting, of they need to do some better processing of the images.

I used to do a lot of imagery orthorectification. The software automatically ties the imagery to the digital elevation model (DEM). The DEM is probably old (though probably not SRTM old) because it captures the original surface and needs to be updated to fix the problem. A good reflective DEM with <3 meters grid would be best to capture the new road surface. I know there's modeling software used to create the 3D cities in Google Maps/ Earth which may be a quicker solution but I don't know enough about it to know how useful it would be.

[edwaleni]

When I saw Riverside Drive in Tulsa, I thought this might be the perfect answer to I-49 in downtown Kansas City.  Yes, I know it will never happen in our lifetimes, but its a thought, not a plan.



Lowered the road, and built parks over it.

[skluth]

When I saw Riverside Drive in Tulsa, I thought this might be the perfect answer to I-49 in downtown Kansas City.  Yes, I know it will never happen in our lifetimes, but its a thought, not a plan.



Lowered the road, and built parks over it.

Technically it's not downtown but the KC south side, but I would love to see this on US 71

[rte66man]

When I saw Riverside Drive in Tulsa, I thought this might be the perfect answer to I-49 in downtown Kansas City.  Yes, I know it will never happen in our lifetimes, but its a thought, not a plan.



Lowered the road, and built parks over it.

The segments were precast offsite and trucked in. Not sure where they got the fill from.

[edwaleni]

When I saw Riverside Drive in Tulsa, I thought this might be the perfect answer to I-49 in downtown Kansas City.  Yes, I know it will never happen in our lifetimes, but its a thought, not a plan.



Lowered the road, and built parks over it.

The segments were precast offsite and trucked in. Not sure where they got the fill from.

Since (beyond the neighborhood issues) costs were a big deal in finding a solution that was workable for MoDOT, this might be more plausible.

Being precast and joined and filled over is much cheaper than building a full blown poured rebarred concrete pylon affair, this maybe an excellent option.

[Scott5114]

I don't know that Riverside Drive is necessarily a good model, since that only happened because Tulsa billionaire George Kaiser donated $350 million to the project.

[MikieTimT]

I don't know that Riverside Drive is necessarily a good model, since that only happened because Tulsa billionaire George Kaiser donated $350 million to the project.

Too bad KCMO has no infrastructurally philanthropic billionaires.  Or really anywhere else for that matter it seems!  There's more than a little need, especially on other incomplete segments of I-49.

[Bobby5280]

Bruce Watkins Drive doesn't need something quite as fancy and elaborate as the Riverside Drive project in Tulsa, although that project is pretty nice. Just to be clear, the Riverside Drive renovation was not completed as an Interstate quality freeway. It still has at-grade driveways and signal-controlled intersections. The visual design of the tunnels and all the park land add to its cost.

The big issue with Bruce Watkins Drive is the three intersections at Gregory Blvd, 59th Street, 55th Street. They could remodel those intersections into miniature deck park style intersections with easy pedestrian access and greenery that hides the freeway. Maybe even incorporate roundabouts or other innovative designs, kind of like this deck park interchange on WA-520 in Seattle:
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.635945,-122.2272266,268m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e4

If they trench a new I-49 freeway just deep enough in the vacant median that has been there for decades it would create additional opportunities for more deck parks to cap over a freeway. That would do more to hide a freeway and improve neighborhood connectivity. It would be an improvement over what is present there now. Pedestrian bridges are a useful tool as well. They can be designed to be a civic landmark, like the Skydance bridge in OKC.

The traffic levels on the Bruce Watkins Drive frontage roads are not safe for pedestrians and bicyclists moving through that area. The vehicles traveling on those short frontage road only segments are still somewhat in freeway driving mode, going from one segment of freeway to the next. That's dangerous for pedestrians crossing at the 3 intersections and much more dangerous for any pedestrians try to cut across in between the intersections.

[edwaleni]

I don't know that Riverside Drive is necessarily a good model, since that only happened because Tulsa billionaire George Kaiser donated $350 million to the project.

Too bad KCMO has no infrastructurally philanthropic billionaires.  Or really anywhere else for that matter it seems!  There's more than a little need, especially on other incomplete segments of I-49.

Raised to be modest with a little oil money thrown in with opportunistic purchases of bankrupt or loss leading companies (like Bank of Oklahoma) can make someone quite capable.

As for KC based billionaires, they do exist.

- Founders of the Garmin Company
- Cerner, s/b ready to unload some dough now that Oracle has bought them
- Chairman of Hallmark Cards called KC home at one time.

[Road Hog]

I don't know that Riverside Drive is necessarily a good model, since that only happened because Tulsa billionaire George Kaiser donated $350 million to the project.

Too bad KCMO has no infrastructurally philanthropic billionaires.  Or really anywhere else for that matter it seems!  There's more than a little need, especially on other incomplete segments of I-49.

Raised to be modest with a little oil money thrown in with opportunistic purchases of bankrupt or loss leading companies (like Bank of Oklahoma) can make someone quite capable.

As for KC based billionaires, they do exist.

- Founders of the Garmin Company
- Cerner, s/b ready to unload some dough now that Oracle has bought them
- Chairman of Hallmark Cards called KC home at one time.

Not to mention the Hunts, the owners of the Chiefs. And David Glass, the owner of the Royals.

[MikieTimT]

I don't know that Riverside Drive is necessarily a good model, since that only happened because Tulsa billionaire George Kaiser donated $350 million to the project.

Too bad KCMO has no infrastructurally philanthropic billionaires.  Or really anywhere else for that matter it seems!  There's more than a little need, especially on other incomplete segments of I-49.

Raised to be modest with a little oil money thrown in with opportunistic purchases of bankrupt or loss leading companies (like Bank of Oklahoma) can make someone quite capable.

As for KC based billionaires, they do exist.

- Founders of the Garmin Company
- Cerner, s/b ready to unload some dough now that Oracle has bought them
- Chairman of Hallmark Cards called KC home at one time.

Not to mention the Hunts, the owners of the Chiefs. And David Glass, the owner of the Royals.

Billionaires, yes.  Infrastructurally philanthropic, obviously not.  Like almost everyone else, they look to the government to allocate other people's money for the infrastructure their endeavors rely upon.  That doesn't make them worse than us, as we likely don't give to specific infrastructure projects either.  It just goes to show how wonderful a gift it was from Mr. Kaiser.  Perhaps they (and hopefully us) will reach a point in their (our) lives that they (we) want to leave a legacy as well that will affect thousands (hundreds) of lives daily.

It's almost like it would take a Go Fund Me type of operation to make things like this happen with people of our means if there's enough people willing to put their money where their mouth is for specific goals in roadbuilding with the guarantee that it gets used for that specific purpose, and refunded if the support just isn't there.  It would take some ironclad contracts to be feasible as time and cost inflation is rampant in the construction industry and refunds once the project has progressed aren't really possible if they fail to deliver the stated product at the end due to unforeseen issues, possibly resulting in years of litigation that only serve to make attorneys rich.

[The Ghostbuster]

First, the court order would have to be overturned. Otherwise, anything that we suggest should be done is irrelevant.

[intelati49]

I have driven the new Bella Vista Bypass a number of times now (6 times each way), and as a roadgeek, I can't get over the reduced standards at the Missouri section. The narrow inner median (four foot I believe from the preliminary layout I have downloaded) annoys me to no end. It reminds me of the older standard "urban" freeways in large metropolitan areas, but stranded in the middle of bum nowhere. It's a jarring combination

At least the Jersey Barrier stretch in Bentonville, right at the Walton Boulevard exit, has a full 10 foot shoulder on the inside.

Overall however, having the bypass *finally* complete is worth the mild pain and annoyance of the reduced standards.

Makes me think about the cost/benefit balance for the wider inner shoulder. I've never seen the *safety manual* (the official name is escaping me at the moment) numbers.

LM-Q730

[skluth]

I have driven the new Bella Vista Bypass a number of times now (6 times each way), and as a roadgeek, I can't get over the reduced standards at the Missouri section. The narrow inner median (four foot I believe from the preliminary layout I have downloaded) annoys me to no end. It reminds me of the older standard "urban" freeways in large metropolitan areas, but stranded in the middle of bum nowhere. It's a jarring combination

At least the Jersey Barrier stretch in Bentonville, right at the Walton Boulevard exit, has a full 10 foot shoulder on the inside.

Overall however, having the bypass *finally* complete is worth the mild pain and annoyance of the reduced standards.

Makes me think about the cost/benefit balance for the wider inner shoulder. I've never seen the *safety manual* (the official name is escaping me at the moment) numbers.

LM-Q730

There's still a lot of anger towards MODOT from a gas tax increase in the 90s which promised a four-lane highway to every community >5K. Cheapskate politicians are more concerned about keeping taxes low than actually providing needed services.

[DJStephens]

I have driven the new Bella Vista Bypass a number of times now (6 times each way), and as a roadgeek, I can't get over the reduced standards at the Missouri section. The narrow inner median (four foot I believe from the preliminary layout I have downloaded) annoys me to no end. It reminds me of the older standard "urban" freeways in large metropolitan areas, but stranded in the middle of bum nowhere. It's a jarring combination

At least the Jersey Barrier stretch in Bentonville, right at the Walton Boulevard exit, has a full 10 foot shoulder on the inside.

Overall however, having the bypass *finally* complete is worth the mild pain and annoyance of the reduced standards.

Makes me think about the cost/benefit balance for the wider inner shoulder. I've never seen the *safety manual* (the official name is escaping me at the moment) numbers.

LM-Q730

The "reduced standards" may very well be a result of Rahn era holdovers making the decision-making on design.   Am aware Rahn became a journeyman, following his first stint in New Mexico, do not know how long he was in Missouri, four or eight years.   
Am of belief a ten foot Left inner shoulder is required for a carriage way of three or more lanes in each direction.   The BVB is four lanes, two in each direction, to best of my knowledge, so a four foot left shoulder meets minimum criteria.    But yes, agree in your observation that the BVB is minimally designed.   Would has pushed for a greater separation of opposing lanes of traffic, to 60 feet, to match what probably exists on either end of the bypass.   And yes that would have increased the costs of construction, as a considerable amount of blasting and earthworks was done in places. 

[Henry]

Bruce Watkins Drive doesn't need something quite as fancy and elaborate as the Riverside Drive project in Tulsa, although that project is pretty nice. Just to be clear, the Riverside Drive renovation was not completed as an Interstate quality freeway. It still has at-grade driveways and signal-controlled intersections. The visual design of the tunnels and all the park land add to its cost.

The big issue with Bruce Watkins Drive is the three intersections at Gregory Blvd, 59th Street, 55th Street. They could remodel those intersections into miniature deck park style intersections with easy pedestrian access and greenery that hides the freeway. Maybe even incorporate roundabouts or other innovative designs, kind of like this deck park interchange on WA-520 in Seattle:
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.635945,-122.2272266,268m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e4

If they trench a new I-49 freeway just deep enough in the vacant median that has been there for decades it would create additional opportunities for more deck parks to cap over a freeway. That would do more to hide a freeway and improve neighborhood connectivity. It would be an improvement over what is present there now. Pedestrian bridges are a useful tool as well. They can be designed to be a civic landmark, like the Skydance bridge in OKC.

The traffic levels on the Bruce Watkins Drive frontage roads are not safe for pedestrians and bicyclists moving through that area. The vehicles traveling on those short frontage road only segments are still somewhat in freeway driving mode, going from one segment of freeway to the next. That's dangerous for pedestrians crossing at the 3 intersections and much more dangerous for any pedestrians try to cut across in between the intersections.

First, the court order would have to be overturned. Otherwise, anything that we suggest should be done is irrelevant.

And until that happens, hundreds, if not thousands, will continue to lose their lives needlessly while trying to cross what is essentially a super street. The space is already there for the freeway, though it likely will be decades before it actually gets built, and I-49 will be able to end where it really needs to be, at the downtown Alphabet Loop.

[intelati49]

The traffic levels on the Bruce Watkins Drive frontage roads are not safe for pedestrians and bicyclists moving through that area. The vehicles traveling on those short frontage road only segments are still somewhat in freeway driving mode, going from one segment of freeway to the next. That's dangerous for pedestrians crossing at the 3 intersections and much more dangerous for any pedestrians try to cut across in between the intersections.

First, the court order would have to be overturned. Otherwise, anything that we suggest should be done is irrelevant.

And until that happens, hundreds, if not thousands, will continue to lose their lives needlessly while trying to cross what is essentially a super street. The space is already there for the freeway, though it likely will be decades before it actually gets built, and I-49 will be able to end where it really needs to be, at the downtown Alphabet Loop.

(Just wondering, I don't have a good idea for the statistics here, but how many fatal accidents/ have there been in the three lights. I know of like 5, but that's literally 5 years ago)

It really is a "worst of both worlds" type compromise.

You got 40k of induced demand with three "randomly placed" lights in the middle of it all.

LM-Q730

[skluth]

^
Highway 71 crosses 6 states, and the Missouri section is one of the longest, spanning almost 377 miles and passing through Kansas City. The city sections are among the deadliest in the state, with a single 7.8-mile stretch (located on the Bruce R. Watkins Drive) being the site of 8 crashes and 9 fatalities in a single year (between 2015 and 2016).
Ambulance-chasing attorney source

[sprjus4]

I have driven the new Bella Vista Bypass a number of times now (6 times each way), and as a roadgeek, I can't get over the reduced standards at the Missouri section. The narrow inner median (four foot I believe from the preliminary layout I have downloaded) annoys me to no end. It reminds me of the older standard "urban" freeways in large metropolitan areas, but stranded in the middle of bum nowhere. It's a jarring combination

Looking at the newly posted Street View of this segment, it looks like it goes through significantly rough terrain with a lot of mountain cuts to make room for the freeway. It’s reasonable to have a reduced section in mountainous areas to save costs.

This isn’t a freeway in the middle of an open field where they can just have a 60-70 foot median and no to little added expense.