Loosening Interstate standards to designate more as one

[froggie]

I was under the impression that the IM program still existed (with the same funding split as the Interstate Construction program--90% federal, 10% state), but only Interstates built prior to 2003 qualify, so that there is no longer an incentive to sign Interstate-compatible freeways as Interstates simply to maintain IM eligibility for them.

As I understand it, Interstates that were added under the "non-chargeable" rules were never eligible for Interstate Maintenance funding, but being on the Interstate system they were eligible for NHS funding.

Toll roads as Interstates are a no-no in FHWA's view

However, there is nothing prohibiting a state from petitioning FHWA to add an Interstate-quality toll road to the Interstate system under the "non-chargeable Interstate" rules.  The I-355 IL and I-185 SC extensions are examples.  For some reason, NCDOT screwed up with I-/NC 540.

[jeffandnicole]

Actually, many do care. When glancing at a map or  possible route, interstates stand out as an almost guaranteed way to avoid lights and highest speeds.

Congratulations, you've defended the ten non-roadgeeks who still use paper maps.

If that was truly the case, there'd be just as many GPS units sold as cars.  Not even close.  Tell you what - go work a toll booth for a day.  Just one day.  You will be wildly amazed at how many questions one gets asked.  Same thing working a convenience store, especially at a gas station along a route frequently used by travelers and tourists.

On BGSs, interstates tend to garner further advanced notice (I-95, 2 Mikes Ahead), and placement on Destination signage. 

But they don't have to? To my knowledge, the FHWA does not require Interstates to be more heavily advertised than state highways.

Correct, they don't.  But most states do that on their own, which shows that these planning people know how people drive...and Interstates are the preferred method to get from one place to another. 

[jeffandnicole]

Actually, I think the United States lacks a real comprehensive perspective on funding highway maintenance and improvements in general.  Our hodgepodge of toll roads and "free" roads comes across to me as horrifically disorganized from a financial perspective.

I've often grumbled that I ought to be tolled or taxed, but not both.  Add on top of that the fact we've tried the "let's toll everything" route before (i.e., why the East has so many "turnpikes" and "shunpikes" and whatever other kind of "pike"), I really lean towards a more centralized funding of infrastructure.

The New Jersey Turnpike and the Garden State Parkway are easily the best quality roads in this state. I'm pretty confident that the money the Turnpike Authority collects goes to improving those roads only, and it shows based on all the construction they get versus everywhere else in the state.

Sadly, no.  Not by a long shot.  The NJTA gave NJDOT over $300 million last year alone.  There's a line item in their financial statements detailing that transfer.

[bzakharin]

A lot of people always bring up NJ 42 and the AC Expressway for examples.  Other than the shorter than normal accel/decal lanes, Rt. 42 appears to be interstate quality.  And  the AC Expressway - there's really nothing on there that's not interstate quality.  Now, there's a difference between not-interstate quality that needs to be updated, and NJ's unwillingness to allow those two routes to be given interstate status.

NJ 55 falls under this also - nothing there would be an issue, from my view.  Heck, they could extend I-76 a bit to Rt. 55 just so Rt. 55 can be a 3 di connecting to a 2 di.   

And the NJ Turnpike from 1 - 6?  No reason here either it's not an interstate.

In the examples above, it may not be that they're not interstate quality, but the state doesn't want to give them the interstate status.  There's obviously other examples throughout the country that could quality to be an interstate today, or need minor upgrades to become an interstate, but the state could have their reasons why they wouldn't want to give those highways interstate status.

The ACE's big issue is overpass height. Lots of them that are way under 14ft. I agree if 76 ever gets extended to at least Deptford, they should make 55 a 3di of it.

55's big problem is the Northbound merge with 42 where traffic is *always* at a crawl due to the single lane segment. Also, in its present state, I don't think 55 serves a corridor that warrants interstate designation. Maybe if it were finished to the Parkway it would qualify on that count.

[hbelkins]

The ironic factor here in Pennsylvania is two laws, PTC, and the Turnpike. Act 44 and Act 89 meant to draw toll money from PTC's rewards to pay off bonds and maintenance. Toll rates on the turnpike were jacked up for the PTC to be a good neighbor to PennDOT. That's the backstory. The ironic part is here: Despite the two acts, the freeways in Pennsylvania are still in horrid condition, and PTC's rewards are practically the same pre-Act 44, and the Turnpike is in even more deplorable condition.

This is as good of a reason as any why there should only be one transportation agency in a state, and the toll roads should come under the jurisdiction of the main state agency, like Kentucky's were.

[froggie]

Even so, you could still easily have the case of toll revenue being siphoned off to support non-toll roads in the state, such as what happens in Delaware.  The toll roads along I-95 and DE 1 fall under the Motor Vehicles Division of DelDOT, and toll revenue from both supports DelDOT in a number of ways far beyond maintaining those two highways.

[US 41]

And this is why many view toll roads as a money maker for the government.

[ekt8750]

A lot of people always bring up NJ 42 and the AC Expressway for examples.  Other than the shorter than normal accel/decal lanes, Rt. 42 appears to be interstate quality.  And  the AC Expressway - there's really nothing on there that's not interstate quality.  Now, there's a difference between not-interstate quality that needs to be updated, and NJ's unwillingness to allow those two routes to be given interstate status.

NJ 55 falls under this also - nothing there would be an issue, from my view.  Heck, they could extend I-76 a bit to Rt. 55 just so Rt. 55 can be a 3 di connecting to a 2 di.   

And the NJ Turnpike from 1 - 6?  No reason here either it's not an interstate.

In the examples above, it may not be that they're not interstate quality, but the state doesn't want to give them the interstate status.  There's obviously other examples throughout the country that could quality to be an interstate today, or need minor upgrades to become an interstate, but the state could have their reasons why they wouldn't want to give those highways interstate status.

The ACE's big issue is overpass height. Lots of them that are way under 14ft. I agree if 76 ever gets extended to at least Deptford, they should make 55 a 3di of it.

55's big problem is the Northbound merge with 42 where traffic is *always* at a crawl due to the single lane segment. Also, in its present state, I don't think 55 serves a corridor that warrants interstate designation. Maybe if it were finished to the Parkway it would qualify on that count.

55's issue will be alleviated as part of the 295/76/42 interchange improvements. That ramp will be repainted for two lanes as it'll lead to the 42 North to 295 South ramp that's coming.

[doorknob60]

Example - I don't understand why CA 110 isn't I-110.  The roadway seems well build, and aside from a few deficient exits, and minimal shoulders, isn't much different that other Interstate designated highways in other cities.

The Arroyo Seco Parkway? No way it should be an interstate. It's very sub-standard compared to interstates: very small shoulders, very tight ramps , does not allow trucks, and does not connect to I-210 (not that it necessarily needs to to be an interstate, but it would help its case). If you're only talking about the section from I-10 to US-101 though (I'd say to I-5 but that section is pretty substandard), I'm more inclined to agree with you.

CA-210 and CA-15, however, should just be signed as interstates in my opinion.

[hbelkins]

Even so, you could still easily have the case of toll revenue being siphoned off to support non-toll roads in the state, such as what happens in Delaware.  The toll roads along I-95 and DE 1 fall under the Motor Vehicles Division of DelDOT, and toll revenue from both supports DelDOT in a number of ways far beyond maintaining those two highways.

Which I wouldn't have a problem with as long as it was within the same agency's jurisdiction. Of course, Kentucky's enabling legislation required the tolls to come off when the bonds were paid off.

[iBallasticwolf2]

Example - I don't understand why CA 110 isn't I-110.  The roadway seems well build, and aside from a few deficient exits, and minimal shoulders, isn't much different that other Interstate designated highways in other cities.

The Arroyo Seco Parkway? No way it should be an interstate. It's very sub-standard compared to interstates: very small shoulders, very tight ramps , does not allow trucks, and does not connect to I-210 (not that it necessarily needs to to be an interstate, but it would help its case). If you're only talking about the section from I-10 to US-101 though (I'd say to I-5 but that section is pretty substandard), I'm more inclined to agree with you.

CA-210 and CA-15, however, should just be signed as interstates in my opinion.

Oh yes stop signs on ramps are very high standard. 

[bugo]

Which I wouldn't have a problem with as long as it was within the same agency's jurisdiction. Of course, Kentucky's enabling legislation required the tolls to come off when the bonds were paid off.

The Oklahoma turnpike system is the same way. So instead of paying the bonds off, they constantly pour money into the system. That's why there is always construction on the turnpikes somewhere. That is also why OTA has build new turnpikes.

[jakeroot]

Actually, many do care. When glancing at a map or  possible route, interstates stand out as an almost guaranteed way to avoid lights and highest speeds.

Congratulations, you've defended the ten non-roadgeeks who still use paper maps.

If that was truly the case, there'd be just as many GPS units sold as cars.  Not even close.  Tell you what - go work a toll booth for a day.  Just one day.  You will be wildly amazed at how many questions one gets asked.  Same thing working a convenience store, especially at a gas station along a route frequently used by travelers and tourists.

I'm actually a valet at a local hotel. People ask me for directions all the time, but mostly they ask for confirmative directions. The large majority of people use their mobile phones as their GPS (hence low sales for standalone GPS units, but incredibly high sales of smart phones*) but want some local confirmation that what their phone is telling them is correct (particularly helpful following the Apple Maps fiasco).

*Smartphones have outsold cars by a substantial amount for four years now.

[ajlynch91]

To add my two cents to this topic, I'd rather that Intetstate standards were better enforced and routes that didn't comply were no longer given the shield. I'm looking straight at I-278, among many others. Not every road deserves interstate status, state and U.S. routes work just fine with regard to navigation as well.

[roadman65]

To add my two cents to this topic, I'd rather that Intetstate standards were better enforced and routes that didn't comply were no longer given the shield. I'm looking straight at I-278, among many others. Not every road deserves interstate status, state and U.S. routes work just fine with regard to navigation as well.

Then include I-70, I-78, definitely I-180 in Cheyenne, and I-68 in Cumberland, MD.  Those have really pushed the limits including the Washington, PA to New Stanton, PA stretch of I-70 with no inside shoulders and substandard ramps besides everybody's favorite town of Breezewood.

[flowmotion]

This sounds like the plan for the CA-99 -> I-9 proposal. It would cost a jillion dollars to get the existing freeway portions up to interstate standards. So they're only going to upgrade the worst bits and then ask for an exception or solve it politically.

[Molandfreak]

(particularly helpful following the Apple Maps fiasco).

There you go, proof that software maps aren't always up to date or give you the best option. Much of the time they erroneously don't show non-Interstate freeways.

But oh well, since you appear to want no further progress in the system, no use arguing.


iPhone

[US 41]

(particularly helpful following the Apple Maps fiasco).

There you go, proof that software maps aren't always up to date or give you the best option. Much of the time they erroneously don't show non-Interstate freeways.

But oh well, since you appear to want no further progress in the system, no use arguing.


iPhone

Not every freeway needs to be upgraded to interstate standards. From what I've heard most of Europe's freeways wouldn't even meet our interstate standards. Maybe if we put up signs (example below) that told drivers that a particular road is a freeway we wouldn't need as many interstate shields everywhere.

[cpzilliacus]

and I-68 in Cumberland, MD.

That section of I-68 was built long before the rest of I-68 as U.S. 40 (Cumberland Thruway).  I think Maryland SHA is examining alternatives to this (admittedly substandard) section of freeway.

Those have really pushed the limits including the Washington, PA to New Stanton, PA stretch of I-70 with no inside shoulders and substandard ramps besides everybody's favorite town of Breezewood.

That road is awful.  I cannot think of a freeway in the U.S. that is as terrible as this section of I-70.  The BQE (I-278) and Cross-Bronx Expressway (I-95) in New York City are state-of-the-art freeways by comparison. Even I-70 across Missouri (not a great road) is massively better than I-70 west of New Stanton.

FHWA/BPR should never have allowed PennDOT and its predecessor agencies to designate this road as an Interstate without substantial reconstruction first, but I know that Pennsylvania seems to love substandard freeways and expressways, and does a lousy job of maintaining them once they are built.

[cpzilliacus]

From what I've heard most of Europe's freeways wouldn't even meet our interstate standards.

Depends on the country.  Motorways in Finland, Denmark and Sweden are generally modern roads that U.S. drivers feel comfortable driving on.  Added bonus - many of them are posted with a 120 km/h speed limit (between 75 and 80 MPH).

[english si]

From what I've heard most of Europe's freeways wouldn't even meet our interstate standards.

I think the big issues are bridge clearances (we have smaller trucks) and the Interstate standard's love of wide medians and inside shoulders, with European freeways tending to go for narrower bits in the middle (hard strips, narrower medians with some form of crash barrier in the middle).

Maybe if we put up signs (example below) that told drivers that a particular road is a freeway we wouldn't need as many interstate shields everywhere.

'Freeway' is not what that sign means!

And you'll note that most countries in Europe have a separate numbering system for every road that has that sign (though a few also apply it to some 'expressways' as well) and many that don't just simply group some in the expressway level instead.

[ekt8750]

FHWA/BPR should never have allowed PennDOT and its predecessor agencies to designate this road as an Interstate without substantial reconstruction first, but I know that Pennsylvania seems to love substandard freeways and expressways, and does a lousy job of maintaining them once they are built.

In fact the Schuylkill Expressway portion of 76 should have never gotten the shield either. I curse myself every time I drive it.

[hbelkins]

Not every freeway needs to be upgraded to interstate standards.

No shit. I'm not in favor of every freeway becoming one unless they make a worthy addition to the system. I-99 does not. OH 11 does not.


iPhone

Sure they do. I-99 will link the PA Turnpike to I-86 (and should go all the way to Rochester, and was originally planned to go all the way south to I-68). OH 11 is a good link between I-90 and Youngstown. They're just as worthy as I-22. Or I-68, for that matter.

[Rothman]

I-80 through Stroudsburg, PA always makes me grimace.

[cpzilliacus]

FHWA/BPR should never have allowed PennDOT and its predecessor agencies to designate this road as an Interstate without substantial reconstruction first, but I know that Pennsylvania seems to love substandard freeways and expressways, and does a lousy job of maintaining them once they are built.

In fact the Schuylkill Expressway portion of 76 should have never gotten the shield either. I curse myself every time I drive it.

The Surekill is indeed awful, but IMO I-70 west of New Stanton is worse.