Would you support new toll roads?

[lamsalfl]

We've all heard in every state that said state is out of cash, and you're only getting 10 miles statewide of widened roads per year.. yaddee yadee yada.  Would you support toll facilities basically to "get the damn road built"?  I'm generally talking about rural routes, but I won't limit it to that. 

I think I would for several reasons.  1)  I can only take so much of 2-lane roads and stoplights.  2) A nice new fast route can create economic development, and help out severely repressed counties.


I recently got a Sunpass Mini (though I probably should have just gotten the regular transponder), and it sure was great to drive the toll roads.  I don't mind paying a couple bucks if it saves me time, fuel efficiency, and a much more relaxing drive.  I didn't have to deal with digging for quarters, and it was great.

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I don't mean exits every mile which could induce sprawl, but an effective system can do a lot of good, and relieve other clogged arteries.

[agentsteel53]

I certainly would.  I don't see what the big fuss is about toll roads.

[Voyager]

Commuters just get irritated with them when they used to be able to get to the same place for free.

[un1]

I hate toll roads. Unless they by-pass huge highways (Like the 401 has the toll road called the 407)

[exit322]

If the toll road would be convenient, then I would almost assuredly take it.  That said, I am not going to take a job that requires some long commute, it's not worth it to me.

If I'm traveling, I'll take the toll road 100% of the time if it saves me hassle.

[Bryant5493]

It depends. I avoid the toll portion of Georgia 400 by either taking I-285 North to Georgia 400 North, or I turn off on Lenox Road and SR 141 North to Peachtree-Dunwoody Road North (it parallels the freeway). It's only $0.50, but I'm cheap (lol).


Be well,

Bryant

[deathtopumpkins]

I support toll roads ONLY if we get something out of it. When there's a parallel free road (i.e. US-13/DE-1), I obviously choose it, even if it might add 5 minutes or so onto my trip.

Now if they decided to build a new HRBT, sure I'd pay a toll to cross it! But if they stick a toll on an existing route, no way. I'm finding an alternate route.

[Bryant5493]

^^ Yeah, I agree -- I'm taking the free route, especially if they parallel one another. (I know, I kind of repeated my previous post, but... moving right along - lol.)

GDOT at one time was talking about making SR 316 a toll facility, in order to build a freeway from the current terminus of the freeway (just west of Collins Hill Road) to Paul Broun Parkway (SR 10 Loop/SR 422). US-78/SR 10 is an alternate to SR 316, but it goes through several towns: Snellville, Between, Loganville, Monroe, then crosses SR 316. It (US-78) also has a lower speed limt: between 45 and 55 mph, east of the Stone Mountain Freeway segement (which is between 55 and 65). Many who live off of 316 were heavily opposed to this, however.


Be well,

Bryant

[Alex]

I used to avoid tolls like the plague. When I lived in Tampa/St. Petersburg however, the Veterans/Suncoast became very appealing to me because it took me north to the U.S. 19/98 corridor for my routine trips to northwest Florida. Taking that route as opposed to Interstates 10/75 saved me some 30-35 miles. The lack of traffic on the northern half of the Suncoast added to its appeal as well. So the shorter travel time/distance made up for the $4.75 in tolls.

When I got a Sunpass (and later EZPass), I got even less apprehensive about paying tolls. Moving to Orlando cinched the deal on me being ok with toll roads, because every limited access highway outside of Interstate 4 is tolled. Sure I got to know the local arterials, but most of the time if I wanted to get from downtown to home or if I wanted to expedite my trip, the toll roads were the way to go.

Also when gas rose to $4/gallon, tolls were cheap compared to the gas I figured I'd burn sitting on traffic-choked arterials. So to answer the question, if a new toll road means a new limited access route may be available to me, then I support them. What I don't support however, is the tolling of a preexisting free facility.

[Scott5114]

I don't have any problems with toll roads per se, but I want to get a bang for my buck. If I'm paying for the road out of my own cash, I expect it to be immaculately maintained, with frequent, well-maintained service plazas and signs that look like someone who actually gives a damn laid them out. Taking this in mind it should come to no surprise that I tend to avoid OTA turnpikes as much as possible. The Kansas Turnpike is about what I expect out of a toll road so even though it costs $5.25 for the portion I use it doesn't bother me as much as the (lesser) amount I had to pay on the Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes.

Although I will say that the Creek Turnpike is worth however many dollars it costs just to get around the insanity that Tulsans call the Skelly Drive.

[Chris]

I also don't have anything against toll roads, as long as the tolls are reasonable. In Europe, they're very high, for instance about $ 0.07 per mile in France. Driving north-south through the country can cost you as much as 80 dollars for a 600 mile trip.

The problem with urban toll roads is that people are gonna look for alternatives which are not always there, creating problems on surface streets that are not designed to handle much traffic, or residential streets where high volumes are undesired.
However, when there are two adjacent freeways, and one of them collects toll, everybody would use the tollfree freeway.

I also think that those roads should become toll-free after their initial investment is payed by the tolls collected over the years, like what happened to Kentucky's parkways. Maintenance can be payed from the regular fuel taxes. Most NY connections were payed off years ago, and now you're just paying tolls on those bridges and tunnels to fund mass transit. (MTA collects the tolls at most toll structures except those to NJ.) They collect 1.3 billion dollars in tolls annually, and the maintenance really doesn't cost 1.3 billion per year)

[SSOWorld]

New Jersey - Tollbooths, nothing but tollboths 

Classic example of parallels: NJ Turnpike - with I-295 running alongside it. (and I-95 further west)

I have an I-Pass (IL's version of the EZ-Pass) which will cut tolls on those roads (and IN) in half and allow continuous travel in IL (they have high speed toll "booths" - except the Skyway)

Now if we can get IN and OH to do the same instead of the "closed toll ticket" system

[Alex]

New Jersey - Tollbooths, nothing but tollboths 

Classic example of parallels: NJ Turnpike - with I-295 running alongside it. (and I-95 further west)

I have an I-Pass (IL's version of the EZ-Pass) which will cut tolls on those roads (and IN) in half and allow continuous travel in IL (they have high speed toll "booths" - except the Skyway)

Now if we can get IN and OH to do the same instead of the "closed toll ticket" system

It was mentioned above about decent service plazas on toll roads, and getting bang for your buck. What is laughable is the $3 toll on the Chicago Skyway which precedes the worse placed service plaza I've ever seen. Within the median after the plaza is a McDonalds, and some of the parking spots literally are access from the left-hand lane that leaves the toll barrier itself.

I know that this is now a privately-run toll road, but based upon this facility, it would be hard to support new toll roads. Fortunately most are built with modern standards in mind.

[SSOWorld]

Well, I hate to say it, but I would not expect any new service plazas on toll roads - especially those marked as Interstate routes. Federal law prohibits commercial development that is directly accessible from the Interstate.  (meaning that today, a service plaza must be on an arterial that you have to get off the toll road to access.) The toll roads that have them now were grandfathered in.

[Alex]

Well FWIW, they are closing the Delaware Turnpike Service Plaza and tearing it down for a rebuilt under new private ownership. Perhaps existing ones are still fair game, but new ones are not?

[mightyace]

Well, I hate to say it, but I would not expect any new service plazas on toll roads - especially those marked as Interstate routes. Federal law prohibits commercial development that is directly accessible from the Interstate.  (meaning that today, a service plaza must be on an arterial that you have to get off the toll road to access.) The toll roads that have them now were grandfathered in.

Yes, the hopefully dead I-80 tolling project in Pennsylvania wouldn't have had any service plazas.  Anyway, the toll roads that have them seem to be closing them down anyway.

As for the original question, I might use the toll road if it is new construction, but not if it is converting a previously "free" road to tolls.  I think that the I-80 project in PA soured me on this as it basically is a plot by Gov. Rendell to make the rural areas that I-80 passes through pay for Phiily's and Pittsburgh rapid transit.

[Bryant5493]

I haven't been to Florida in awhile, but are the Florida Turnpike service plazas well-maintained?


Be well,

Bryant

[Tarkus]

I'm absolutely 100% against tolls.  Maybe it's just that I've never lived in the vicinity of a toll road, but I believe roads are a basic service and should be fully funded by taxes.  Or, alternatively, advertising, which I'm surprised hasn't been considered.  Frito-Lay Expressway, anyone?

I'd *maybe* be okay with it if it were a completely privately-built road and not previously tolled, but tolling existing free roads is a huge, huge no-no.

Of course, our state government here in Oregon is considering an absolutely insane plan to install GPS tracking devices on cars as part of a "Mileage Tax" plan, which would effectively turn the whole state into a big giant toll road.  

-Alex (Tarkus)

[lamsalfl]

PNW is crazy.  It's like socialism up there.  The gubbament is always up your ass up there.  Anywho, I actually wouldn't mind seeing roads with corporate sponsorships if it meant the maintenance is top notch, and/or the road gets built in the first place.  That way a company can easily "build" a road, but it would be a gov't authority actually doing the hard work.  The company would just be paying for it.

[Snappyjack]

I agree with deathtopumpkins. I don't mind toll roads if the toll money is actually used for the ROAD, and it is maintained and upgraded as needed.

See, here in New York, we have a lovely little thing called the New York State Thruway. Remember how I said in another forum topic I have certain rants about my state? Well, you're about to get one. You've been warned. And my apologies in advance to anyone who loves the Thruway and New York and is offended in any way shape or form by said rant.

First off, the tolls were supposed to be gone in 1996. Paid off, in full. What does NY do? They vote to keep them in. And then they raise them. The most recent raise in tolls was the first of this month. They are planning on raising them another three times in the next two years. Here is my problem with that. The structure of the road is the same as it was when it was put in. Yes, it has had tweaks in it's interstate standards and all, but save for New York City, small portions in Albany and near Rochester, and Buffalo, the road is two lanes each way.

This provides a special problem for the Albany to New York City crowd in the summer, for those traveling to and from the Lake George area and the Adirondacks. Traffic gets backed up on numerous occasions.

Here's my solution: Do what Ohio did. They expanded the highway to three lanes each way from Cleveland to Toledo. Make it concrete too. Even though the concrete suggestion isn't really 100% necessary, it looks nice. Just check out the portion near Rochester between exits 44 and 45, or Buffalo between exits 53 and 54. It's very nice, and I am actually quite shocked it happened.

My other problem: the mileposts. The mileposts start on I-87 at the New York City line, 8 miles north of it's southern terminus, and count all the way to PA on I-90. Yeah.. here's the problem with that. The mileposts on I-90 are backwards. They count up as you go west, rather than count down. This will pose a problem when New York decides to eventually adopt a mileage based exit numbering system, which I have heard rumors of coming to fruition in 2011(anyone with any concrete proof, feel free to share). It also causes problems for the parts of I-87 that are not part of the Thruway.

With the economy the way it is, we drivers cannot afford to pay the ever expanding toll prices. And while they say the tolls are needed, what for? They don't go to the road. They go to maintain the Erie Canal system, which the Thruway Authority also owns, and to pay the authority bigwigs.

The new Highway Speed EZPass installation at Woodbury is indeed a nice thing to see. But there needs to be more. AsI have said before, New York's infrastructure is so way behind everyone else, it would take years just to fix the stuff that is bad/wrong, before we could ever see new roads and highways built.

And, as said before, the politics always come first here. No regard to communites and human life on the road are given. This isn't just the Thruway's fault. The DOT can be to blame too. But that my friends is another rant.

[Alex]

And the Thruway also raised tolls in 2005. The Pennsylvania Turnpike raised its tolls in 2004 and have raised them again recently.

The tolling of Interstate 80 in PA failed because the federal law states that money collected on that freeway via tolls can only go toward projects pertaining to that road. Therefore PA was stymied in its effort because they wanted the money to go toward the funding of projects statewide. I'm glad this failed.

Just today there was an article in North Carolina about the tolling of Interstate 95 being the only way the state can pay the $5 billion they estimate they need to upgrade the road. I hope this doesn't come to fruition.

[Anthony_JK]

My stated philosophy on tolls:

If they are used as accompliments to free roads (for instance, beltways or connectors), are independently sustainable, and can be self-maintainable through its own revenue (or if the tolls are removed when all the original bonds are paid off), then I am for it.

For upgrading existing roads and for roads that are already Federally funded, or for critical Interstate corridors, though...HELL TO THE NO. Those should be built as they were intended...as FREEWAYS paid with traditional fuel taxes and "free" revenue streams.

To use some actual examples: The Sam Houston Tollway in Houston or the Central Texas Turnpike system in Austin I would have no problem with (or proposed toll loops around Lafayette and Baton Rouge). Tolling the conversion of US 90 between Lafayette and New Orleans into I-49 South, though, would be a BIG problem.  If the project is that crucial to national economic health, it should be publically funded and "free".


Anthony

[mightyace]

And the Thruway also raised tolls in 2005. The Pennsylvania Turnpike raised its tolls in 2004 and have raised them again recently.

The tolling of Interstate 80 in PA failed because the federal law states that money collected on that freeway via tolls can only go toward projects pertaining to that road. Therefore PA was stymied in its effort because they wanted the money to go toward the funding of projects statewide. I'm glad this failed.

Just today there was an article in North Carolina about the tolling of Interstate 95 being the only way the state can pay the $5 billion they estimate they need to upgrade the road. I hope this doesn't come to fruition.

I don't have the exact dates handy but my dad has told me that the tolls were originally supposed to come off of the initial Irwin to Carlisle section of the PA Turnpike in 1965 or 1970.  This would have been 25 or 30 years after the construction of this section.  Obviously, that never happened.

I also read that the Ohio Turnpike was to become "free" when the original bonds were retired.  (I think that would have been 2003, but I'm not sure.)

It's hard for politicians of any party or philosophy to get rid of a tax or a revenue stream.  Plus, detolling those highways would have meant disbanding their turnpike commissions and all the cushy patronage jobs!

I know a number of roads that were once tolled are no longer.  The best example is the state of Kentucky, at one time, there were around a dozen tolled parkways in the state.  Just a couple of years ago, the tolls went off the last three.

[Chris]

Toll roads should have a better pavement than this though...

Pics of the Indian Nation Turnpike near Hugo by OKroads.

[deathtopumpkins]

Speaking of removed tolls, here in the 90s when VA-44 received its designation as I-264, they removed a $.10 toll on it that had been there since the highway opened. It was a little odd going through this old little toll both on an onramp where you just tossed a dime in the thing. Very low-tech and weirdly cheap.