One Of My BGS Pet Peeves...

[TheStranger]

so UDOT route logs will sometimes refer to SR-15, SR-80, SR-89, etc when in reality they're I-15, I-80, US-89. It all has to do with the fact that the state legislature codifies the routes under law as such, though I'm not sure that's what California does.

Actually, that's exactly what California does - i.e. I-15 and Route 15 are not at all considered two separate routes, but as one unified number (same with I-110/Route 110, I-210/Route 110 et al.).

The first one - though never built - was the planned Route 380 between I-280 in San Bruno and Route 1 in Pacifica, proposed in the 1960s.

[LeftyJR]

If you think that's old...

They are doing some rehab work in that area this winter/spring.  I wouldn't be surprised to see these replaced in the next 6 months or so.

[vdeane]

Glad I got through there when I did then.

[mightyace]

I saw those signs last Thursday.  Unfortunately, it was night so I couldn't get a picture.

I'm sure the US 220 SOUTH sign will have a blank space for I-99.

I'll be sad to see it go... 

Fortunately, these were still around in Bloomsburg...


20091227 I-80 WB @ Exit 241-8 by mightyace, on Flickr


20091227 US11 N @ I-80 - 4 by mightyace, on Flickr


20100102 US11 S @ I-80 - 1C2 by mightyace, on Flickr

Alas, this one is no more:

20100102 I-80 WB @ Exit 232-6C by mightyace, on Flickr

[agentsteel53]

those are some great 1961-spec I-80 shields!  too bad the US routes were spelled out.

some signs of similar vintage exist on the Doylestown bypass, identifying US-611 to this day.

[mightyace]

^^^

AFAIK  They are the surviving original signs at the I-80/US 11 interchange.

[Quillz]

I can see in the first pic it used to be "Exit 36," now it's Exit 241. I assume 36 came from sequential numbering?

[Michael in Philly]

I can see in the first pic it used to be "Exit 36," now it's Exit 241. I assume 36 came from sequential numbering?

Yes.  Pennsylvania switched to mileage-based about ten years ago.  Most exit signs (at least in the Philadelphia area) still have "old exit X" tabs on them; I wonder when they'll stop showing those.

[Michael]

If you think that's old...

I kind of like that type of signage.  I-180 has that type for its full length.

For those who will miss that sign bridge when I-99 comes through, here's an option:

(click image for a full size version)

[Quillz]

I just think it works better with a graphical shield. When I see text, I generally want to assume it's a street name. I want important numbered highways to stand out visually.

[Ian]

Nice creations Michael, however on an authentic PA button copy sign, Interstate 99 would not be spelled out, it'd be a button copy shield as seen in mightyace's photos.

[Quillz]

In an ideal world, those signs in Pennsylvania would say Interstate 980, not Interstate 99.

[Michael]

Nice creations Michael, however on an authentic PA button copy sign, Interstate 99 would not be spelled out, it'd be a button copy shield as seen in mightyace's photos.

I just looked at the photos you mentioned, and noticed that U.S. routes are all text, and Interstate routes have a shield.  Any reason why?  The only thing I can think of is that "Interstate" takes up a lot of space compared to "U.S.".

[BrynM65]

Wild speculation, but, given the importance of the Interstate 'brand', is it possible the logic at the time was that if the shield was the most visible component then people would head that way?

The Interstate shield is, after all, particularly iconic and it is the only part of those 60s-era BGS that really sticks out. I noticed the "80" shield well before the word "Hazelton". With the text only signs, it is harder to take in the information - which is why in the UK, major route numbers are in either a different typeface (on motorways) or in gold lettering (primary routes). It falls down on minor roads where the number is the same colour and typeface as the rest of the text (and is harder to locate).

[vdeane]

I kind of like that type of signage.  I-180 has that type for its full length.

Not anymore it doesn't.  I-180 must have just had its signage replaced by the time I went on it, because it now has this type of signange (for those that don't like Clearview, LOOK AWAY):

[US71]

I for one am going to violently disagree.  Old green signs preserve history.

What is that CA 60 patch hiding?

I agree with Jake to some degree: old signs preserve history , though they need to be maintained.

[J N Winkler]

I just looked at the photos you mentioned, and noticed that U.S. routes are all text, and Interstate routes have a shield.  Any reason why?  The only thing I can think of is that "Interstate" takes up a lot of space compared to "U.S.".

I don't think there was necessarily a reason as such.  I think it was simply a matter of preference on the part of the signs design team in Harrisburg which, until the 1980's (so I am told), handled guide sign design for all PennDOT districts.  PennDOT has long had standard plan sheets for US and state route shields on freeway guide signs, but for a long period of time (about two decades, based on the signing plan sheets I have managed to find), US and state route designations appeared in text only.  It becomes easier to find US and state route shields on guide signs toward the late 1970's and early 1980's, around the time standard plan sheets started calling for reflectorized shields, the Harrisburg design unit was broken up, and guide sign design was downloaded to PennDOT districts (with an immediate and steep fall in the quality of plans produced).

I think an underlying motivation for this preference might have been avoiding button copy (or button reflectorization in general) for letters and digits appearing in negative contrast.  The Interstate shield is not a problem since the digits appear in positive contrast, but both the Pennsylvania and US traffic route markers have black digits on white background.  This may also be the reason Pennsylvania was comparatively slow to adopt yellow-background "LEFT EXIT" and "EXIT ONLY" signing.  It is certainly true, again based on my plan sheet collection, that text designations are correlated with the use of standard plan sheets calling for porcelain enamel US and state route shields (no whole-surface reflectorization) with reflective buttons in digits and border.  Much later this changed temporarily to whole-surface reflectorization with opaque black border and digits.  Eventually the black border was dropped and PennDOT guide sign shields assumed their present form.

Incidentally, the rule has traditionally been that the system designator ("US" or "PA" in this case) has to be centered vertically on the route number.  Typical sizes are as follows:

*  Rural area (ground-mounted):  15" system designator, 18" route number, 20" uppercase/15" lowercase primary legend

*  Overhead:  10" or 12" system designator, 15" route number, 16" uppercase/12" lowercase primary legend

Series D is traditional, but there are numerous examples (as on several plan sheets and on the assembly in Mightyace's photo) where Series E Modified has been used instead.

[Alex]

I just looked at the photos you mentioned, and noticed that U.S. routes are all text, and Interstate routes have a shield.  Any reason why?  The only thing I can think of is that "Interstate" takes up a lot of space compared to "U.S.".

I don't think there was necessarily a reason as such.  I think it was simply a matter of preference on the part of the signs design team in Harrisburg which, until the 1980's (so I am told), handled guide sign design for all PennDOT districts.  PennDOT has long had standard plan sheets for US and state route shields on freeway guide signs, but for a long period of time (about two decades, based on the signing plan sheets I have managed to find), US and state route designations appeared in text only.  It becomes easier to find US and state route shields on guide signs toward the late 1970's and early 1980's, around the time standard plan sheets started calling for reflectorized shields, the Harrisburg design unit was broken up, and guide sign design was downloaded to PennDOT districts (with an immediate and steep fall in the quality of plans produced).

Having grown up around text-based signs, I used to think they were a standard. New York certainly followed the Penndot guidelines for state, and sometimes U.S. highways, written in text:



Also I have a memory or two of freeway mileage signs in the Carolinas where the state highways referenced on guide signs would simply display "S C XXX".

[agentsteel53]

Not anymore it doesn't.  I-180 must have just had its signage replaced by the time I went on it, because it now has this type of signange (for those that don't like Clearview, LOOK AWAY):
[180/220/15]

good heavens, who shat out that US-15 shield??  the 220 is pretty bad, too.

[LeftyJR]

Not anymore it doesn't.  I-180 must have just had its signage replaced by the time I went on it, because it now has this type of signange (for those that don't like Clearview, LOOK AWAY):
[180/220/15]

good heavens, who shat out that US-15 shield??  the 220 is pretty bad, too.

I've seen quite a few US-15 signs that look like that - near Williamsport as well as on the Susquehanna Trail between Harrisburg and Lewisburg.

[Fixed quoting. Always put your reply at the very bottom of the text box, below the last [/quote] tag. -S.]

[burgess87]

If they're gonna Clearview the sign, why not go all the way?  (I'm not talking about the route numbers-those are fine.)  "KEEP LEFT", the exit & number tab, "1/2 MILE", and the cardinal directions  look like FHWA Series E to me.

[Scott5114]

I actually don't mind the mix-and-match approach on those that much. Neither all-caps Clearview nor its digits are very compelling to me.

[J N Winkler]

Having grown up around text-based signs, I used to think they were a standard. New York certainly followed the Penndot guidelines for state, and sometimes U.S. highways, written in text:

They were, in fact, a standard.  The MUTCD used to provide minimum heights for text designations on freeway guide signs according to type class.  I think (haven't checked) that it was just in the last revision cycle that FHWA threw text designations on advance guide and exit direction signs out the back of the bus.  Since the MUTCD now has minimum retroreflectivity requirements and the states are universally using whole-surface retroreflectorization for all new guide signing, there is no longer a need to provide for text designations as a way of avoiding negative-contrast button copy.

Also I have a memory or two of freeway mileage signs in the Carolinas where the state highways referenced on guide signs would simply display "S C XXX".

This is a very common standard, including in states, like Kansas, with no history of using button copy.  (Kansas will use shields on interchange sequence signs, but not on post-interchange distance signs.  Arizona, on the other hand, now uses shields both on interchange sequence signs and post-interchange distance signs.)  I do not at the moment remember whether the MUTCD has eliminated text designations on post-interchange distance signs.

[codyg1985]

What is that CA 60 patch hiding?

I'm assuming it used to say US 60.

[Quillz]

If they're gonna Clearview the sign, why not go all the way?  (I'm not talking about the route numbers-those are fine.)  "KEEP LEFT", the exit & number tab, "1/2 MILE", and the cardinal directions  look like FHWA Series E to me.

Not sure why it wasn't used for the things you mentioned, but I do know Clearview is not yet approved for negative contrast (dark text against a light or dark background), so the "EXIT ONLY" portion could not yet be in Clearview.

I actually don't mind the mix-and-match approach on those that much. Neither all-caps Clearview nor its digits are very compelling to me.

The whole purpose of Clearview is that it's mixed case. That's when its improved legibility comes into play. You will never see all-caps Clearview simply because there is no purpose to it.