Will Sunpass work on EZPass lanes in Virginia and Maryland?

[mtantillo]

I wonder why they don't join E-ZPass; there really isn't much reason not to, especially with the new affiliate membership.

ExpressPass pre-dated the affiliate membership by several years. 

I think they should join. 

[cpzilliacus]

I wonder why they don't join E-ZPass; there really isn't much reason not to, especially with the new affiliate membership.

ExpressPass pre-dated the affiliate membership by several years. 

I think they should join. 

This (from TOLLROADSnews) could be a great leap forward when it comes to toll road system interoperability.

[Zmapper]

I wonder why they don't join E-ZPass; there really isn't much reason not to, especially with the new affiliate membership.

ExpressPass pre-dated the affiliate membership by several years. 

I think they should join. 

This (from TOLLROADSnews) could be a great leap forward when it comes to toll road system interoperability.

How will this system tell apart multiple cell phones in the same vehicle that are configured to pay tolls, in order to not charge extra?

[agentsteel53]

How will this system tell apart multiple cell phones in the same vehicle that are configured to pay tolls, in order to not charge extra?

I would imagine the requests would come in like this:

16:23:17 555-1234, pay for toll crossing 12345, license plate 1ABC234.
16:23:18 555-4321, pay for toll crossing 12345, license plate 1ABC234.

here, the computer is designed to note that 1ABC234 is not going to cross the same toll barrier legitimately twice in the span of one second, and it interprets those two requests as one transaction.

you can probably set a minimum time between valid transaction requests as high as a minute or two and not be dropping legitimate consecutive requests.  how far apart are toll barriers, anyway?

[cpzilliacus]

how far apart are toll barriers, anyway?

Right now, on long "closed" (ticket) toll roads like the Pennsylvania Turnpike or the Ohio Turnpike, it can be hundreds of miles between an entrance barrier and an exit barrier (consider driving the entire ticket system of the Penn Pike, from Warrendale (I-79) near Pittsburgh to the mainline barrier at Bristol (U.S. 13) just short of the Delaware River and the New Jersey border).  According to Google, that's between 325 and 330 miles.

The Pennsylvania Turnpike is planning to convert to all electronic tolling (cashless), which will mean a "barrier" between each interchange.

Md. 200 (ICC) has "barriers" (a gantry) between every interchange, and some of them are not more than a mile or two apart (some others are a little further apart, bit the road is not that long, only between 15 and 20 miles.

[1995hoo]

There are two gantries on the I-495 Express Lanes in Virginia located less than a mile apart (I'd guess 1000 feet at most)–one just to the south of the US-29 overpass and another immediately to the north of it. That sort of thing is a special situation, I suppose, but it's the closest two tolling points of which I'm aware (and of course I know that sort of proximity wouldn't work if it weren't all-ETC).

[kphoger]

Wow, I'm liking cash payment more and more as this goes along....

[cpzilliacus]

Wow, I'm liking cash payment more and more as this goes along....

But cash payment is eventually  going to go away.  Highway 407 in Ontario was the "proof of concept" of a cashless toll road.  Just wish the owners of the 407 concession would join the E-ZPass Group.

[norahs]

Am I the only one who thinks this is one gigantic festering cluster?  The states, districts, and powers to be ought to design a central system that is smart enough to recognize anything that is EZPass or already interchangeable with it.  All other variations of toll payment passes need to funnel it all through EZPass.  Right now, while major city roadways are being converted into toll roads and toll booths are being phased out is where the confusion needs to just stop before it is so out of control with violations being everywhere.  People assuming that because they have an EZPass from Florida it should work in EZPass toll areas in New Jersey.  Since EZPass is the "word" showing up everywhere, this ought to be the one that manages all the tolls.  I cannot imagine decorating my windshield with different EZPass stickers and transponders and hanging tags from every state and toll area.  One is enough.

Seriously, why can't some program be developed with some simple logic that says, "hey, a car just went under this EZPass detector in Alexandria, Virginia.  The cost $3.00 and the car has an EZPass sticker.  I see that it's Susan Smith.  (What difference does it make where she's from.  A toll is a toll and everybody should pay the same rate if they live in the United States.)  Her bank account is with Blah National Bank and she has $45 in her EZPass account.  Transfer $3.00 from her bank account to the EZPass Toll Agency in Alexandria, Virginia.  What is so hard about that?

[cpzilliacus]

Am I the only one who thinks this is one gigantic festering cluster?  The states, districts, and powers to be ought to design a central system that is smart enough to recognize anything that is EZPass or already interchangeable with it.  All other variations of toll payment passes need to funnel it all through EZPass.  Right now, while major city roadways are being converted into toll roads and toll booths are being phased out is where the confusion needs to just stop before it is so out of control with violations being everywhere.  People assuming that because they have an EZPass from Florida it should work in EZPass toll areas in New Jersey.  Since EZPass is the "word" showing up everywhere, this ought to be the one that manages all the tolls.  I cannot imagine decorating my windshield with different EZPass stickers and transponders and hanging tags from every state and toll area.  One is enough.

Seriously, why can't some program be developed with some simple logic that says, "hey, a car just went under this EZPass detector in Alexandria, Virginia.  The cost $3.00 and the car has an EZPass sticker.  I see that it's Susan Smith.  (What difference does it make where she's from.  A toll is a toll and everybody should pay the same rate if they live in the United States.)  Her bank account is with Blah National Bank and she has $45 in her EZPass account.  Transfer $3.00 from her bank account to the EZPass Toll Agency in Alexandria, Virginia.  What is so hard about that?

What you describe  above is exactly what the E-ZPass Group is about. 

But some other states and toll authorities (including jurisdictions adjacent to the E-ZPass "footprint," like Highway 407 in Ontario and the new toll facilities in Quebec), as well as Florida, Texas and Georgia, have seen fit to not join E-ZPass.  Being an E-ZPass member means a toll agency has to have equipment to handle the E-ZPass transponder, which is more expensive than the "sticker" tags used in many places outside of E-ZPass land.

The only place (now) that accepts E-ZPass and some other form of transponder (a sticker tag) is the Tri-Ex in North Carolina.

[agentsteel53]

A toll is a toll and everybody should pay the same rate if they live in the United States.

are we tolling Canadians at a different rate now?  seems like the sort of thing Florida would do...

[jeffandnicole]

Wow, I'm liking cash payment more and more as this goes along....

Why?  Because a few people that don't know the exact computer specifications of electronic toll equipment that hasn't been fully programmed yet offered up a few opinions?

[cpzilliacus]

A toll is a toll and everybody should pay the same rate if they live in the United States.

are we tolling Canadians at a different rate now?  seems like the sort of thing Florida would do...

Not Canadians per se, but many (most?) states seem to have cashless discounts that are only offered to vehicles with in-state transponder units.

[NE2]

And CP misses the point.

[cpzilliacus]

Wow, I'm liking cash payment more and more as this goes along....

Why?  Because a few people that don't know the exact computer specifications of electronic toll equipment that hasn't been fully programmed yet offered up a few opinions?

The standard used by E-ZPass transponders and equipment to read them is in the  public domain (or soon will be). Some of the other transponder standards are strictly proprietary, like the Mark IV (E-ZPass) standard used to be.

[norahs]

>But some other states and toll authorities (including jurisdictions adjacent to the E-ZPass "footprint," like Highway 407 in Ontario and the new toll facilities in Quebec), as well as Florida, Texas and Georgia, have seen fit to not join E-ZPass.

And that's fine if they don't.  Herein lies my frustration.  They should then not be able to display anything with the word EZPass on it since that will cause major confusion to people traveling between EZPass regions.  I mean that's like telling me my US twenty dollar bill works in Florida but it won't work in New Jersey, because New Jersey isn't fully compliant.  I should have known to check first to see that it's acceptable in all the states.  Anything that displays the word EZPass should be fully interchangeable with any other state, district, or jurisdiction that displays the name EZPass, period.  States shouldn't be able to just halfway opt into the EZPass system. 

In my situation I purchased a SunPass sticker in Florida and then suddenly it became fully interchangeable with EZPass Florida.  So it should also be fully interchangeable with any other EZPass toll area in the United States, period.  What's the deal, all it's got to do is grab the money.  So prior to seeing this convo, I might have happily driven driven right through the EZPass tollgate on the Bay Bridge and would have wondered why didn't it work, and why am I being pulled over, or worse yet why am I getting a notice in the mail 3 months later.  Well officer, it says EZPass and my sticker works fine in EZPass lanes in Florida and there is money in my account, what's wrong? 

Also Florida should totally ditch the name Sunpass because it is now perfectly obsolete.  In my mind Sunpass and EZPass are exactly the same.  Every person with a Sunpass account should be notified that the name has been changed to EZPass - notified by the newspaper, news, mail, email, whatever.  It shouldn't be that hard, afterall, how many times have we gone through a bank merging with another bank or changing its name?  I shouldn't have to know anything about the politics involved and what state decides to display the logo and not pay into a national system, and go into hours of research to see if my now EZPass sticker from Florida works in New Jersey.  That's just horrible.

Thanks for reading this far, it's crazy with how complicated the simplest things have become in this country.  The other thing I'm concerned with is this:  So let's say I travelled in New Jersey last month and I paid the toll because I knew my EZPass didn't work even though EZPass is displayed above the toll lane.  Now a month later I am traveling through there again but didn't know that just last week New Jersey became fully interchangeable with EZPass in southern states.  Let's say I didn't know when that happened, and paid that toll to a human toll operator or even dropped it in the basket.  But at the same time the sensor above also now worked and took the toll from my bank account automatically.  Now I've paid TWICE.  How do I know this isn't going to happen?  Please help me to understand.

I also don't understand "gantrys".  What difference does it make how many miles are between toll exchanges?  They are in the same state.  You either pay when you go through the next one, or you pay if you exit before.

[NE2]

norahs: E-Pass and EZ-Pass are different systems.

[vdeane]

I don't know about other jurisdictions, but the Thruway discounts Canadian currency 30%.  The Thousand Islands Bridge used to have different rates for Canadian and US currency until the 2008 (I think) toll hike.

In my situation I purchased a SunPass sticker in Florida and then suddenly it became fully interchangeable with EZPass Florida.  So it should also be fully interchangeable with any other EZPass toll area in the United States, period.  What's the deal, all it's got to do is grab the money.  So prior to seeing this convo, I might have happily driven driven right through the EZPass tollgate on the Bay Bridge and would have wondered why didn't it work, and why am I being pulled over, or worse yet why am I getting a notice in the mail 3 months later.  Well officer, it says EZPass and my sticker works fine in EZPass lanes in Florida and there is money in my account, what's wrong? 

You're confused.  There is no such thing as E-ZPass in Florida.  You're thinking of Orlando's E-Pass.  E-ZPass is only within the E-ZPass IAG and doesn't appear elsewhere.

[cpzilliacus]

I also don't understand "gantrys".  What difference does it make how many miles are between toll exchanges?  They are in the same state.  You either pay when you go through the next one, or you pay if you exit before.

On "ticket" toll roads like the N.J. Turnpike (most of) the N.Y. State Thruway and (most of) the Pennsylvania Turnpike, if you do not have an E-ZPass, you get a toll ticket when you enter the highway.  When you exit, you  surrender that ticket to the toll collector, who computes how much you owe based on how far you have driven. 

All three of those toll roads also accept E-ZPass.  If you have E-ZPass, you don't get a ticket, you just drive through an  E-ZPass lane (passing under a gantry, sometimes just part of an  older toll both), where the location of your entry is recorded in the transponder.  When you leave the toll road, you drive  under another gantry (which may also be part of a toll booth), the distance you drove is computed and then the toll due, and your E-ZPass account is charged that amount. 

On new toll cashless toll roads like the Triangle Expressway (TriEx) in Wake County, N.C.; the I-495 express lanes in Fairfax County Virginia; and the InterCounty Connector (Md. 200) in Montgomery and Prince George's Counties, there are no toll booths at all, since they do not accept cash for payment of the toll.

Instead, there are E-ZPass readers (and video cameras, as backup in case you don't have a transponder, or if your transponder is malfunctioning) mounted above each lane on a structure called a gantry between the interchanges.   The operators of these facilities know how far it is between each interchange, and as you pass under each one, they know how far you have driven.  You are charged for how far you drive on these roads, just like you would be on the New Jersey Turnpike. 

Only major difference is that there are different charges by time-of-day (usually posted on signs near the entrance to the toll road), so rush hour costs the most, while the per-mile charge in the overnight hours is usually pretty low.

Returning to your remark above, you can think of a gantry on an all-electronic toll road as being the same as a toll plaza on a road that accepts cash.

[mtantillo]

I don't know about other jurisdictions, but the Thruway discounts Canadian currency 30%.  The Thousand Islands Bridge used to have different rates for Canadian and US currency until the 2008 (I think) toll hike.

In my situation I purchased a SunPass sticker in Florida and then suddenly it became fully interchangeable with EZPass Florida.  So it should also be fully interchangeable with any other EZPass toll area in the United States, period.  What's the deal, all it's got to do is grab the money.  So prior to seeing this convo, I might have happily driven driven right through the EZPass tollgate on the Bay Bridge and would have wondered why didn't it work, and why am I being pulled over, or worse yet why am I getting a notice in the mail 3 months later.  Well officer, it says EZPass and my sticker works fine in EZPass lanes in Florida and there is money in my account, what's wrong? 

You're confused.  There is no such thing as E-ZPass in Florida.  You're thinking of Orlando's E-Pass.  E-ZPass is only within the E-ZPass IAG and doesn't appear elsewhere.

Exactly. There are talks of interoperability, but that is still a long way off.  It will likely not be full interoperability (i.e. SunPass = E-ZPass), but more partial (E-ZPass accepted at certain SunPass facilites where you see the E-ZPass logo). 

I think that part of the reason for separate brand names that are fully compatible (I-Pass/E-ZPass and SunPass/E-Pass) are because original agreements signed with bondholders specified a certain brand name that was to be used. 

In the case of E-Pass and SunPass, they are interoperable but use different technologies (SunPass relies a lot more on the writeback capability of the transponders than E-Pass), and have different histories (E-Pass pre-dated SunPass by about 8 years, and initially used bumper mounted tags and toll receivers in the pavement). 

[NE2]

And E-Pass was free. None of this pay for something that saves them money shit.

[1995hoo]

I also don't understand "gantrys".  What difference does it make how many miles are between toll exchanges?  They are in the same state.  You either pay when you go through the next one, or you pay if you exit before.

....

Returning to your remark above, you can think of a gantry on an all-electronic toll road as being the same as a toll plaza on a road that accepts cash.

Here's an example of a toll gantry on the Beltway in Virginia (picture taken last November the Monday before Thanksgiving).

[kphoger]

Wow, I'm liking cash payment more and more as this goes along....

Why?  Because a few people that don't know the exact computer specifications of electronic toll equipment that hasn't been fully programmed yet offered up a few opinions?

Because I'd rather not have to do an hour's worth of homework to find out which toll roads I can use a certain transponder on and which ones I can't, which ones I'll get some sort of discount on and which ones I can't, which systems allow transponders to be shared between vehicles and which ones don't, et cætera, et cætera.  Just let me pay cash and I'll be happy.

[norahs]

You are right, vdeane - I AM confused and have EZPass on the brain since I am in EZPass territory today!!  Allow me to buy you dinner for pointing out that there is no EZPass in Florida (and I live there)!  EPass vs EZPass, good googa mooga, thanks for the clarification.. Last time I went thru Miami was last June on the way to the Keys.  So to travel up north I need to purchase another sticker (or transponder) to slap on the inside of my windshield - for EZPass.  I bet if I'm confused so are others, so that's yet another reason to get this all into a national system.

Yes, there used to be two options for paying tolls over the Thousand Islands Bridge, US $1.50 and Canada $2.00.  Omg, so now what do they have?  It's been a long time since the US dollar was worth 30% more than the Canadian dollar.  If anything, it's the other way around now.

Thanks for explaining gantrys, cpzilliacus and 1995hoo.. I forgot there are different charges based upon the time of day.  I live in Orlando but don't think about different prices at different times of the day - I know there are sufficient funds in my account to take care of it whatever it is whatever time it is.  I think this might be what you guys were talking about earlier.. so if rush hour is at 3pm - 7pm for example, what happens if I enter the toll lane in Alexandria at 2.45pm and exit around Lorton at 3.05pm?  I'm sure I will get charged for the higher rate regardless of the number of miles I traveled between 2.45pm and 3pm or when I got clocked in Alexandria, right?

kphoger, I agree, I'd be happier paying cash to a nice person in a tollbooth until they get this all straightened out, tested, and working.

Yawn indeed, lol...

[NE2]

what happens if I enter the toll lane in Alexandria at 2.45pm and exit around Lorton at 3.05pm?

http://www.95expresslanes.com/using
"You will see pricing signage as you approach each new segment. These signs will provide you with information on current toll pricing so you can decide if you want to use the Express Lanes. If you enter the Express lanes, you will lock in your toll rate for that segment."