Former US 395/US 80 (Current CA 163) on the Cabrillo Freeway

[TheStranger]

More info on US 395...this is from pg. 88 of https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/files/minutes_of_common_council_book_116.pdf (Dec 1965)


A communication from the California Division of Highways giving
notice of resolution designating that portion of Highway 395, between the
Coronado Ferry landing and 11th Avenue, to be a State Highway, was referred to
the City Manager, on motion of Councilman Walsh, seconded by Councilman Schaefer

I don't know enough about how California highways were designated or what not, but is this essentially saying this is when US 395 was extended to the Coronado Ferry?

Sounds like it!

Interestingly, on Cahighways.org, the original 1964 definition for 395 in California simply states the southern terminus as "San Diego" rather than US 101, I-5, Harbor Drive, Pacific Highway, or anything specific.  I wonder if this gave latitude to either CalTrans or the city itself as far as where the actual southern terminus would be pre-1969 (though the link you posted suggests that the Coronado Ferry north landing was officially designated as the terminus by then-California Division of Highways)

In this same time period, Route 75's definition did not originally have its north terminus at the I-5/Montgomery Freeway, instead ending at the Coronado terminal of the ferry from 1964-1967 (when bridge construction was completed).  This created a unique situation where one would take US 395 to the ferry, and arrive on the other side at a completely different numbered route (75).

[Max Rockatansky]

More info on US 395...this is from pg. 88 of https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/files/minutes_of_common_council_book_116.pdf (Dec 1965)


A communication from the California Division of Highways giving
notice of resolution designating that portion of Highway 395, between the
Coronado Ferry landing and 11th Avenue, to be a State Highway, was referred to
the City Manager, on motion of Councilman Walsh, seconded by Councilman Schaefer

I don't know enough about how California highways were designated or what not, but is this essentially saying this is when US 395 was extended to the Coronado Ferry?

Sounds like it!

Interestingly, on Cahighways.org, the original 1964 definition for 395 in California simply states the southern terminus as "San Diego" rather than US 101, I-5, Harbor Drive, Pacific Highway, or anything specific.  I wonder if this gave latitude to either CalTrans or the city itself as far as where the actual southern terminus would be pre-1969 (though the link you posted suggests that the Coronado Ferry north landing was officially designated as the terminus by then-California Division of Highways)

In this same time period, Route 75's definition did not originally have its north terminus at the I-5/Montgomery Freeway, instead ending at the Coronado terminal of the ferry from 1964-1967 (when bridge construction was completed).  This created a unique situation where one would take US 395 to the ferry, and arrive on the other side at a completely different numbered route (75).

Even weirder the legislative definition of Orange Ave in Coronado switches to 282 in 1968 when 75 was shifted towards the route of the Coronado Bridge.  I guess the real question.is who operated the San Diego-Coronado Ferry because it doesn't appear to have been the Division of Highways. 

[TheStranger]

More info on US 395...this is from pg. 88 of https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/files/minutes_of_common_council_book_116.pdf (Dec 1965)


A communication from the California Division of Highways giving
notice of resolution designating that portion of Highway 395, between the
Coronado Ferry landing and 11th Avenue, to be a State Highway, was referred to
the City Manager, on motion of Councilman Walsh, seconded by Councilman Schaefer

I don't know enough about how California highways were designated or what not, but is this essentially saying this is when US 395 was extended to the Coronado Ferry?

Sounds like it!

Interestingly, on Cahighways.org, the original 1964 definition for 395 in California simply states the southern terminus as "San Diego" rather than US 101, I-5, Harbor Drive, Pacific Highway, or anything specific.  I wonder if this gave latitude to either CalTrans or the city itself as far as where the actual southern terminus would be pre-1969 (though the link you posted suggests that the Coronado Ferry north landing was officially designated as the terminus by then-California Division of Highways)

In this same time period, Route 75's definition did not originally have its north terminus at the I-5/Montgomery Freeway, instead ending at the Coronado terminal of the ferry from 1964-1967 (when bridge construction was completed).  This created a unique situation where one would take US 395 to the ferry, and arrive on the other side at a completely different numbered route (75).

Even weirder the legislative definition of Orange Ave in Coronado switches to 282 in 1968 when 75 was shifted towards the route of the Coronado Bridge.  I guess the real question.is who operated the San Diego-Coronado Ferry because it doesn't appear to have been the Division of Highways. 

Just looked up Cahighways on 282 and it looks like Orange north of 3rd/4th in Coronado was part of the 1930s-1967 Route 75, then maintained as part of that temporary 282 extension while the ferry and bridge each existed concurrently (which was a short time).

Interestingly, the San Diego/Coronado Ferry has since made a return:
https://www.flagshipsd.com/cruises/coronado-ferry

The Coronado terminus of the modern ferry is similar to the Route 75/282 era, but the north terminus has shifted, with the modern ferry either boarding from the convention center (close to the original US 101/Harbor Drive that the convention center built over) or from the Broadway pier.

What is also notable about that 1965 CDOH resolution is that 11th Avenue at that point was the northbound part of the couplet leading from Market Street to the Cabrillo Freeway, making me wonder if the 395/80/94 concurrency along Market was a city-maintained street prior to then.

[ClassicHasClass]

US 395 was extended over what had been US 101 when US 101 was removed from Pacific Hwy (unless US 395 always turned left onto Pacific Hwy south down to Harbor Dr)

That's the part that's noteworthy. I don't have any maps corroborating it, but obviously here it is signed in the field.

[TheStranger]

US 395 was extended over what had been US 101 when US 101 was removed from Pacific Hwy (unless US 395 always turned left onto Pacific Hwy south down to Harbor Dr)

That's the part that's noteworthy. I don't have any maps corroborating it, but obviously here it is signed in the field.

More confirmation of the 395 extension down Pacific:

1967 California state map (linked in Max R.'s recent blog post on I-5 )

https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239518~5511845:-Verso--State-Highway-Map,-Californ?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:caltrans;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=22&trs=86

The 1965 map actually does not show any state maintenance along the 10th/11th couplet or along Market, but the 1958 and 1961 maps show 395 using that corridor all the way to Harbor and the ferry terminus.  Wonder if this briefly was not state-maintained in 1964-1965 before being offically re-added.

The 1970 map shows the 395/163 concurrency all the way down 10th/11th and Market, but not that final block or two to Pacific and the ferry terminus
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239512~5511841:-Verso--State-Highway-Map,-Californ?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:caltrans;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=18&trs=86

[Mapmikey]

What is also notable about that 1965 CDOH resolution is that 11th Avenue at that point was the northbound part of the couplet leading from Market Street to the Cabrillo Freeway, making me wonder if the 395/80/94 concurrency along Market was a city-maintained street prior to then.

It appears CA 94 was moved from Market to F/G couplet in Oct 1959 (pg. 59 at https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/files/minutes_of_common_council_book_101.pdf).  The Sept 1959 minutes show this was at the City of San Diego's request (pg. 328 at https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/files/legacy/digitalarchives/pdf/historicalocd/minutes/minutesofcommoncouncil100.pdf)

Communication from Distric t Engineer, State Division of
Highways, submitting copy of thei r resolution adopting as State Highway
Road XI-SD-200-SD, that portion of P and G Streets between 10th Avenue
and 25th Street (this i s a temporary one-way street connection which
i s to serve unti l Route 2, or U. S. 101, i s relocated along l8th Street
and Route 200 completed from l8th Street to 25th Street), was presented.
The item was referred to the City Manager, on motion of
Councilman Schneider, seconded by Councilman Evenson.

On this same page they add chunks of the new US 101 freeway to the system.

On pg 255 of same they appear to remove Market St from the state highway system.

US 101 between National City and NCL of San Diego appears to have been removed in March 1959 (pg. 84 at https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/files/legacy/digitalarchives/pdf/historicalocd/minutes/minutesofthecommoncouncil99.pdf)

The communication from the California Highway Co~ission
relinquishing certain portions of State Highway Road XI-S.D.-2-SD, between
18th Street in National City and the: north Gity limits of San Diego, was
referred to the City 1~nager, on mo~ion of Councilman Kerrigan, seconded by Councilman Curran.

[TheStranger]

Thanks for the post!  "Route 200" is reference to LRN 200, the pre-1964 legislative number for what has always been signed route 94.

Exit 1B from Route 94 west leads directly into the F/G couplet so I presume that was the westernmost extent of the 94 freeway in late 1959.

[andy3175]

Excellent find! I'll take some time to review the videos too. I had no idea 395 was intended to terminate at the Coronado ferry. 1970 (the year in which these videos were made) was one year after the Coronado bridge opened. 395 only lasted a little longer before signs were removed. The last of the overhead signs with convered up 395 shields were removed during the current (2018-2019) mass conversion of most remaining button copy and porcelain enamel signs to reflective signs with exit numbers.

SM-G975U

[TheStranger]

Even weirder the legislative definition of Orange Ave in Coronado switches to 282 in 1968 when 75 was shifted towards the route of the Coronado Bridge. 

Today's California highway system has only one place now where a through route continues through a junction under 2 different route numbers, and that is 17/880 in San Jose (of which all of 880 was formerly 17 from the 1950s to 1984).

Would this count as an example of such too, essentially 395 becoming 75 and then later 395/163 becoming 282 before the ferry was shut down?  (Though it would be a stretch to say that US 395's south terminus in the mid-1960s was Route 75 and 1969-1970 was Route 282, given that the ferry did not carry a route number).

[Mapmikey]

Now here's some fun...

At 0:23 of this video https://youtu.be/7xD-3yL3CdE There is no US 395/CA 163 posting
At 3:48 of this video https://youtu.be/OCIF_z2sNEQ There is...

At the ends of each of these there is also that change in posting.

A similar situation occurs with the Pacific Hwy SB videos and comparing the one with the END shield and the one with the END shield not present appears to me to show the ones with the shields are older - on the shield-less Pacific Hwy there appears to be construction and new stuff in the distance that is not present in the shielded one.

Compare 0:02 at https://youtu.be/hOlI8p3__mg (shieldless)  with 2:57 at https://youtu.be/hTRSstsGyIM (shielded).  Note the water tower in the distance is visible in both.

So to me this would establish that US 395 was deposted on Market and Pacific sometime during 1970 as these videos are from January to October 1970.

However, a careful check of the first 2 videos shows they can't have been filmed a few months apart IMO.  There are NUMEROUS business name changes (a 76 became a Chevron for example) plus an entire building several stories tall is present in the newer one (0:07) that is not in the older one (3:33).  It is the Lions Manor which didn't open until 1980 but per the Lions website description sounds as though construction was held up at some point in the mid 1970s.  So I think the newer video is newer than 1970...I am not a car expert to know if mid 70s cars appear in it)

[TheStranger]

That first video in your most recent post (Market Street 2) looks to be later 70s (or even early 80s) - at the first second there's a GM coupe (an Oldsmobile?) that is a late 70s/early 80s design, I think I might have also sighted an 80s BMW in there too.

I can't pin down a date on the Pacific Highway 2 video other than that the mid-1970s Camaro/Firebird design shows up quite a bit in the parking spots seen in that clip.

[Mapmikey]

More confirmation of the 395 extension down Pacific:

1967 California state map (linked in Max R.'s recent blog post on I-5 )

https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239518~5511845:-Verso--State-Highway-Map,-Californ?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:caltrans;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=22&trs=86

The 1965 map actually does not show any state maintenance along the 10th/11th couplet or along Market, but the 1958 and 1961 maps show 395 using that corridor all the way to Harbor and the ferry terminus.  Wonder if this briefly was not state-maintained in 1964-1965 before being offically re-added.

The 1970 map shows the 395/163 concurrency all the way down 10th/11th and Market, but not that final block or two to Pacific and the ferry terminus
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239512~5511841:-Verso--State-Highway-Map,-Californ?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:caltrans;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=18&trs=86

The 1975 California map does still show the short Pacific Hwy piece as part of the route -

The 1977 and 1979 maps show it too, though only CA 163 remains on these maps.

I found 1971 photos showing the US 395/CA 163 shields still up on Market...not surprising.  Wonder if it was still posted in 1975...

[Max Rockatansky]

More confirmation of the 395 extension down Pacific:

1967 California state map (linked in Max R.'s recent blog post on I-5 )

https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239518~5511845:-Verso--State-Highway-Map,-Californ?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:caltrans;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=22&trs=86

The 1965 map actually does not show any state maintenance along the 10th/11th couplet or along Market, but the 1958 and 1961 maps show 395 using that corridor all the way to Harbor and the ferry terminus.  Wonder if this briefly was not state-maintained in 1964-1965 before being offically re-added.

The 1970 map shows the 395/163 concurrency all the way down 10th/11th and Market, but not that final block or two to Pacific and the ferry terminus
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239512~5511841:-Verso--State-Highway-Map,-Californ?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:caltrans;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=18&trs=86

The 1975 California map does still show the short Pacific Hwy piece as part of the route -

The 1977 and 1979 maps show it too, though only CA 163 remains on these maps.

I found 1971 photos showing the US 395/CA 163 shields still up on Market...not surprising.  Wonder if it was still posted in 1975...

Apparently the legislative definition wasn't updated to reflect the truncation until 1984:

https://www.cahighways.org/161-168.html#163

[SoCal Kid]

You learn something new every day, don't you! Didnt know there was an "old" CA 163. What's with the /11. Did it use to be CA 11 too?

[TheStranger]

You learn something new every day, don't you! Didnt know there was an "old" CA 163. What's with the /11. Did it use to be CA 11 too?

The mentions of 11 in this thread I think are just pointing out that 10th and 11th Streets were the one-way couplet that 395/163 (and in the past US 80) used from the San Diego Freeway (US 101 then, now I-5) south into downtown San Diego from the southern terminus of the Cabrillo Freeway.

The original 1964 Route 163 was a completely different routing in the Los Angeles area, former US 99 and US 6 along San Fernando Road as well as what had been Route 134 along the Colorado Street freeway in Glendale (now unsigned Route 5S).

EDIT: I realize now your post was about that 1964-1965 Route 163 (which did end originally at what was 1950s-1984 Route 11, now Route 110)

[Mapmikey]

You learn something new every day, don't you! Didnt know there was an "old" CA 163. What's with the /11. Did it use to be CA 11 too?

The sign in that photo meant CA 163 (now Ave 26) crossing over CA 11 (now I-110)

[ClassicHasClass]

You learn something new every day, don't you! Didnt know there was an "old" CA 163. What's with the /11. Did it use to be CA 11 too?

The sign in that photo meant CA 163 (now Ave 26) crossing over CA 11 (now I-110)

This, in fact: http://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/mass/#163

[usends]

US 395 was extended over what had been US 101 when US 101 was removed from Pacific Hwy (unless US 395 always turned left onto Pacific Hwy south down to Harbor Dr)

Yes, that is the question this all raises in my mind: was US 395 extended to the ferry landing in ~1960, or had it been signed to that location ever since it was first extended to San Diego in 1934?  And for that matter, did US 80 also go to the ferry landing prior to the 1950s (when it was moved to what would later become I-8)?  That is something that wouldn't have been answered on any but the largest-scale maps.

[TheStranger]

US 395 was extended over what had been US 101 when US 101 was removed from Pacific Hwy (unless US 395 always turned left onto Pacific Hwy south down to Harbor Dr)

Yes, that is the question this all raises in my mind: was US 395 extended to the ferry landing in ~1960, or had it been signed to that location ever since it was first extended to San Diego in 1934?  And for that matter, did US 80 also go to the ferry landing prior to the 1950s (when it was moved to what would later become I-8)?  That is something that wouldn't have been answered on any but the largest-scale maps.

Looking at a 1954 map, it seems the ferry landing itself wasn't part of the route (or any signed route) then

https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239557~5511871:-Verso--Road-Map-of-the-State-of-Ca

[Mapmikey]

US 395 was extended over what had been US 101 when US 101 was removed from Pacific Hwy (unless US 395 always turned left onto Pacific Hwy south down to Harbor Dr)

Yes, that is the question this all raises in my mind: was US 395 extended to the ferry landing in ~1960, or had it been signed to that location ever since it was first extended to San Diego in 1934?  And for that matter, did US 80 also go to the ferry landing prior to the 1950s (when it was moved to what would later become I-8)?  That is something that wouldn't have been answered on any but the largest-scale maps.

1964 Official Map shows no primary routes near the ferry landing at all and US 395's extension to it was specifically assigned in Dec 1965.  That doesn't mean that US 80-395 didn't go to the ferry landing at some point early on.  Just not continuously for US 395 if it did.