One of the threads about the New Jersey Turnpike prompted me to think of something I was wondering about a couple of weeks ago regarding service areas–specifically, how they're located. I've lived in Virginia for almost my entire life and most of my longer-distance toll-road travel has been on the ticket-system toll roads in the Northeast, most frequently the New Jersey and Pennsylvania Turnpikes. I guess you could count the JFK Highway (I-95 northeast of Baltimore) and the Delaware Turnpike as "non-ticket-system toll roads," although I do not count them because they don't use ramp tolls (anymore, in Delaware's case). As a kid I never travelled to Florida and the first time I used Florida's Turnpike was in June 2011.
What I found interesting in Florida was the way the service plazas were positioned in the median even on the "ticket system" portion, and there was nothing preventing a driver from turning around via the service area if he so chose. The turnpikes in the Northeast do not do that–with a few exceptions, service plazas are located on the outside (accessed from the right lane) and you can only reach them from that side of the road. The New Jersey Turnpike goes so far as to put a fence atop the median barrier near the service areas, presumably to discourage people from trying to climb over to get to the service plaza on the other side. One notable exception is the New Baltimore service area on the Thruway, where the plaza is located west of the Thruway and northbound traffic uses an overpass to get to and from the facility. I seem to recall the car park being divided to prevent people from making U-turns through the service area.
The toll roads that use barriers, on the other hand, often have service areas in the median, such as the Garden State Parkway; you could also count the JFK Highway and Delaware Turnpike in this category. The "No U-Turn" paranoia isn't present on those roads. The Vince Lombardi Service Area in New Jersey would be a special case because it's outside the limits of the Turnpike's ticket system.
Anyway, long way of getting to the point: I found myself thinking that it seems inefficient to build two sets of structures, especially things like underground gas storage tanks and the like, every time you want to set up a service area. The New Baltimore plaza on the Thruway made eminent sense when I first saw it some 10 or 11 years ago, although I recognize why building overpasses to reach service areas might be undesirable where it can be avoided. But the Florida setup was the first time I could recall seeing median-based service plazas on a ticket-system toll road and I found myself thinking, "You know, this makes a lot of sense, and if you're paranoid about U-turns you could just design the place to prevent traffic from crossing over." If you really wanted to do it right you could probably set up the gas station with a wall down the middle to segregate the traffic.
So what is the rationale for preferring to locate the service plazas on the outside of the road, given that it requires the construction of additional facilities and adds the expense of additional maintenance? I suppose there's a desire to avoid left-lane exits and entrances, although I have no idea whether that alone is a compelling enough rationale. (I note that some of the ticket-system toll roads were built during the era when left-side exits and entrances were a lot more common than they are now.) Does the added service area income in the form of additional leasing fees and the like (due to the larger number of facilities if you build two plazas instead of one) really outweigh the extra expense of constructing and maintaining the extra service areas? Or is there some other particular consideration as to why putting them on the outside is preferred?
(I also recall that the one motorway service area I've visited in England, on the M4 near Reading, is likewise on the outside, accessed from the left lane given that you drive on the other side. So it's not unique to ticket-system toll roads in the USA.)
Even though this is not a service area, the Clare rest area is located in the median of US-10/US-127 just north of Clare. The driveways are not connected in any way.
I would say that part of the justification to placing rest areas or service plazas on the outside of the travel lanes is to provide a right exit and entrance, instead of left exits and entrances. That keeps the slower traffic to the outside as it prepares to exit or comes up to speed on re-entry.
All but one of the oases in the Chicago area have the facilities located over the road, but the parking lots are on the outside of the travel lanes to provide a right exit and entrance. (The DeKalb Oasis is on one side of the road, but it has segregated parking and an overpass for the other direction of traffic.)
The Sideling Hill plaza on the Pennsylvania Turnpike is one facility for both directions of travel, served by a trumpet interchange. There's no way for motorists to make a U-turn here. I'm not sure what the cost differences would be in building a separate facility vs. building a bridge to serve a single facility.
The Molly Pitcher Service Area on the NJ Turnpike Southbound between Exits 8A & 8 at one point served traffic from both directions - ramps on the northbound side were located on the right side of the roadway, crossing over to the service plaza.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 31, 2012, 08:27:51 AM
The Molly Pitcher Service Area on the NJ Turnpike Southbound between Exits 8A & 8 at one point served traffic from both directions - ramps on the northbound side were located on the right side of the roadway, crossing over to the service plaza.
When were those ramps added? Are you sure those ramps from the northbound Turnpike aren't restricted to "Official Vehicles Use ONLY" or a temporary construction-vehicle related measure?
I ask because the northbound Joyce Kilmer Service Area isn't located too far away from Molly Pitcher.
Quote from: hbelkins on July 30, 2012, 05:58:51 PM
The Sideling Hill plaza on the Pennsylvania Turnpike is one facility for both directions of travel, served by a trumpet interchange. There's no way for motorists to make a U-turn here. I'm not sure what the cost differences would be in building a separate facility vs. building a bridge to serve a single facility.
Ditto the Allentown service plaza on the NE Extension. IIRC, they had a barrier between two sets of pumps (and parking lots), so you could only exit in the direction you entered. It also has a somewhat unique ramp setup. Instead of a trumpet, it has basically a RIRO setup, but with traffic driving on the wrong side of the road, so you don't need a loop (or another bridge to cross traffic going the other way, like in a stack).
Edit: Shows how much I paid attention (never stop at Sideling Hill Plaza)... it has the same "unique" ramp setup.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 30, 2012, 03:24:11 PM
I guess you could count the JFK Highway (I-95 northeast of Baltimore) and the Delaware Turnpike as "non-ticket-system toll roads," although I do not count them because they don't use ramp tolls (anymore, in Delaware's case). As a kid I never travelled to Florida and the first time I used Florida's Turnpike was in June 2011.
Though there
were ramp tolls on both (in the case of the JFK Highway in Maryland, up to the early 1980's, I don't recall when they were removed from the Delaware Turnpike).
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 30, 2012, 03:24:11 PM
What I found interesting in Florida was the way the service plazas were positioned in the median even on the "ticket system" portion, and there was nothing preventing a driver from turning around via the service area if he so chose. The turnpikes in the Northeast do not do that–with a few exceptions, service plazas are located on the outside (accessed from the right lane) and you can only reach them from that side of the road. The New Jersey Turnpike goes so far as to put a fence atop the median barrier near the service areas, presumably to discourage people from trying to climb over to get to the service plaza on the other side.
The Ohio Turnpike and Indiana Toll Road has always positioned its service plazas in "pairs," one opposite the other. In places, the Pennsylvania Turnpike has also done this, but for reasons not clear to be, most of the plazas on the N.J. Turnpike are not in pairs across from each other.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 30, 2012, 03:24:11 PM
One notable exception is the New Baltimore service area on the Thruway, where the plaza is located west of the Thruway and northbound traffic uses an overpass to get to and from the facility. I seem to recall the car park being divided to prevent people from making U-turns through the service area.
As H.B. pointed out, the Sidling Hill service plaza on the Pennsylvania Turnpike is configured this way, as are both plazas on the Turnpike's Northeast Extension (I-476).
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 30, 2012, 03:24:11 PM
The toll roads that use barriers, on the other hand, often have service areas in the median, such as the Garden State Parkway; you could also count the JFK Highway and Delaware Turnpike in this category. The "No U-Turn" paranoia isn't present on those roads. The Vince Lombardi Service Area in New Jersey would be a special case because it's outside the limits of the Turnpike's ticket system.
When the JFK Highway had tolls on the ramps, the breaks in the barriers separating northbound and southbound traffic at the Maryland House and Chesapeake House
were gated, since by making a "U" turn, it was possible to evade the ramp tolls (the ramp tolls were only on the side of the interchanges "facing away" from the main toll barrier at Perryville, so traffic having paid there was never subject to a ramp toll).
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 30, 2012, 03:24:11 PM
Anyway, long way of getting to the point: I found myself thinking that it seems inefficient to build two sets of structures, especially things like underground gas storage tanks and the like, every time you want to set up a service area. The New Baltimore plaza on the Thruway made eminent sense when I first saw it some 10 or 11 years ago, although I recognize why building overpasses to reach service areas might be undesirable where it can be avoided. But the Florida setup was the first time I could recall seeing median-based service plazas on a ticket-system toll road and I found myself thinking, "You know, this makes a lot of sense, and if you're paranoid about U-turns you could just design the place to prevent traffic from crossing over." If you really wanted to do it right you could probably set up the gas station with a wall down the middle to segregate the traffic.
So what is the rationale for preferring to locate the service plazas on the outside of the road, given that it requires the construction of additional facilities and adds the expense of additional maintenance? I suppose there's a desire to avoid left-lane exits and entrances, although I have no idea whether that alone is a compelling enough rationale. (I note that some of the ticket-system toll roads were built during the era when left-side exits and entrances were a lot more common than they are now.) Does the added service area income in the form of additional leasing fees and the like (due to the larger number of facilities if you build two plazas instead of one) really outweigh the extra expense of constructing and maintaining the extra service areas? Or is there some other particular consideration as to why putting them on the outside is preferred?
Putting them on the right means traffic exits and enters the mainline of the highway on the right. Though that could be accomplished with median service plazas by building flyover ramps.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 30, 2012, 03:24:11 PM
(I also recall that the one motorway service area I've visited in England, on the M4 near Reading, is likewise on the outside, accessed from the left lane given that you drive on the other side. So it's not unique to ticket-system toll roads in the USA.)
The ones I have seen on motorways in continental Europe (on "free" motorways) have always been on the right side.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 31, 2012, 08:27:51 AM
The Molly Pitcher Service Area on the NJ Turnpike Southbound between Exits 8A & 8 at one point served traffic from both directions - ramps on the northbound side were located on the right side of the roadway, crossing over to the service plaza.
Are you positive about that? I know the ramps to which you refer, but I've been travelling the Turnpike since the early 1970s (way less often nowadays as traffic and construction have caused me to find other routes) and I do not ever remember any service area on the New Jersey Turnpike serving traffic from both directions, ever, with the exception of the Vince Lombardi Service Area. A look at the satellite view for the plaza you mention shows that there is what appears to be a Turnpike Authority office building just to the south and that the ramps are probably there to give access to it. Google Maps says it's a state police building.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 31, 2012, 08:56:58 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 30, 2012, 03:24:11 PM
I guess you could count the JFK Highway (I-95 northeast of Baltimore) and the Delaware Turnpike as "non-ticket-system toll roads," although I do not count them because they don't use ramp tolls (anymore, in Delaware's case). As a kid I never travelled to Florida and the first time I used Florida's Turnpike was in June 2011.
Though there were ramp tolls on both (in the case of the JFK Highway in Maryland, up to the early 1980's, I don't recall when they were removed from the Delaware Turnpike).
I don't recall the ramp tolls on the JFK Highway. I have vague recollections of the ones on the Delaware Turnpike, but I think they were removed sometime in the early 1980s.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 31, 2012, 08:56:58 AMThe Ohio Turnpike and Indiana Toll Road has always positioned its service plazas in "pairs," one opposite the other. In places, the Pennsylvania Turnpike has also done this, but for reasons not clear to be, most of the plazas on the N.J. Turnpike are not in pairs across from each other.
I've only been on the Ohio Turnpike once (en route to Michigan and Ontario in 1987) and I've never been to Indiana at all, so I'll take your word for it, but you're kind of getting at a part of what prompted me to wonder about the issue. If you're going to build two service areas right across from each other, why not just have the two carriageways pull apart and drop the service area in the middle and save the cost of building two?
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 31, 2012, 08:56:58 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 30, 2012, 03:24:11 PM
One notable exception is the New Baltimore service area on the Thruway, where the plaza is located west of the Thruway and northbound traffic uses an overpass to get to and from the facility. I seem to recall the car park being divided to prevent people from making U-turns through the service area.
As H.B. pointed out, the Sidling Hill service plaza on the Pennsylvania Turnpike is configured this way, as are both plazas on the Turnpike's Northeast Extension (I-476).
I wasn't trying to give an exhaustive list. Notice I did say "one notable exception." I believe there is another somewhere on the I-90 part of the Thruway, although I haven't used that road between Albany and I-390. That's why I just gave one example. I have not gone far enough on the Northeast Extension to encounter the service areas there because that road is simply too far out of the way to be of much use for me. Problem there is that while I'd like to check it off my roadgeeking list, every time I'm headed in that direction it's at a time when the traffic considerations make it undesirable to head that far east before going north. There's only so much delay I'm willing to suffer for roadgeeking purposes, especially if my wife is in the car as she loses patience with traffic even sooner than I do.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 31, 2012, 08:56:58 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 30, 2012, 03:24:11 PM
Anyway, long way of getting to the point: I found myself thinking that it seems inefficient to build two sets of structures, especially things like underground gas storage tanks and the like, every time you want to set up a service area. The New Baltimore plaza on the Thruway made eminent sense when I first saw it some 10 or 11 years ago, although I recognize why building overpasses to reach service areas might be undesirable where it can be avoided. But the Florida setup was the first time I could recall seeing median-based service plazas on a ticket-system toll road and I found myself thinking, "You know, this makes a lot of sense, and if you're paranoid about U-turns you could just design the place to prevent traffic from crossing over." If you really wanted to do it right you could probably set up the gas station with a wall down the middle to segregate the traffic.
So what is the rationale for preferring to locate the service plazas on the outside of the road, given that it requires the construction of additional facilities and adds the expense of additional maintenance? I suppose there's a desire to avoid left-lane exits and entrances, although I have no idea whether that alone is a compelling enough rationale. (I note that some of the ticket-system toll roads were built during the era when left-side exits and entrances were a lot more common than they are now.) Does the added service area income in the form of additional leasing fees and the like (due to the larger number of facilities if you build two plazas instead of one) really outweigh the extra expense of constructing and maintaining the extra service areas? Or is there some other particular consideration as to why putting them on the outside is preferred?
Putting them on the right means traffic exits and enters the mainline of the highway on the right. Though that could be accomplished with median service plazas by building flyover ramps.
Correct about right-side exits, I suggested that in my comment. I suppose fly-under ramps would work as well (like the pit lane at the Yas Marina Circuit in Abu Dhabi). What I'm wondering is whether the "exit/enter on the right" is itself a compelling enough motivation to justify the cost of building duplicative service areas or whether the motivation was something else, given that you do sometimes see median-located plazas (Florida's Turnpike being the example I cited because that's what prompted me to speculate about the issue). I know there are some people on this forum who have suggested that the Maryland House approaches ought to be redesigned to use flyover ramps.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 31, 2012, 09:22:33 AM
I've only been on the Ohio Turnpike once (en route to Michigan and Ontario in 1987) and I've never been to Indiana at all, so I'll take your word for it, but you're kind of getting at a part of what prompted me to wonder about the issue. If you're going to build two service areas right across from each other, why not just have the two carriageways pull apart and drop the service area in the middle and save the cost of building two?
One practical reason (besides the already-mentioned right exit/right entrance) for having the service plazas outside is so employees can get to them without having to either use the toll road or a pedestrian tunnel from their parking area. Perhaps also there's enough traffic at certain times to warrant a location for each direction.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 31, 2012, 09:22:33 AM
I believe there is another somewhere on the I-90 part of the Thruway, although I haven't used that road between Albany and I-390.
Angola, west of Buffalo and the last one before Pennsylvania.
The Kansas Turnpike is a ticket system turnpike that uses median service plazas. Originally there was no way of crossing over at them; with the reconstruction you now could, theoretically. However I believe the ticket notes the direction of travel so if you have an "impossible" itinerary they just ring it up as full fare, as if you got on at Oklahoma and got off at Kansas City.
You can't have a thread like this without mention of the Wellston McDonalds (which is sadly now gone). The WB Turner Turnpike onramp from Wellston, OK begins at OK-66, passes through a coin-op toll gate, and then actually lets out into what was the service plaza parking lot. There is/was a small parking lot off the ramp upstream of the gate so employees could park without having to go through the toll gate (presumably from there the only way out would be onto the westbound turnpike, with no exits until Oklahoma City.)
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2012, 12:08:24 PM
You can't have a thread like this without mention of the Wellston McDonalds (which is sadly now gone). The WB Turner Turnpike onramp from Wellston, OK begins at OK-66, passes through a coin-op toll gate, and then actually lets out into what was the service plaza parking lot. There is/was a small parking lot off the ramp upstream of the gate so employees could park without having to go through the toll gate (presumably from there the only way out would be onto the westbound turnpike, with no exits until Oklahoma City.)
Street View shows the building, and some interesting signage at the onramp: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=35.679893,-97.054805&spn=0.003887,0.008256&gl=us&t=k&z=18&layer=c&cbll=35.679821,-97.054812&panoid=jZvMwsGQHUcN6SMZVfit4w&cbp=12,192.48,,0,-10.88
Employees would have been able to head back north on the ramp.
Quote from: hbelkins on July 30, 2012, 05:58:51 PM
The Sideling Hill plaza on the Pennsylvania Turnpike is one facility for both directions of travel, served by a trumpet interchange. There's no way for motorists to make a U-turn here. I'm not sure what the cost differences would be in building a separate facility vs. building a bridge to serve a single facility.
there is a rest area on I-17 which is like this, except it has a diamond interchange, not a trumpet. it is located on the west side of the road, so northbound traffic has to cross under the freeway.
not sure why they built it that way.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 31, 2012, 12:26:29 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 30, 2012, 05:58:51 PM
The Sideling Hill plaza on the Pennsylvania Turnpike is one facility for both directions of travel, served by a trumpet interchange. There's no way for motorists to make a U-turn here. I'm not sure what the cost differences would be in building a separate facility vs. building a bridge to serve a single facility.
there is a rest area on I-17 which is like this, except it has a diamond interchange, not a trumpet. it is located on the west side of the road, so northbound traffic has to cross under the freeway.
not sure why they built it that way.
The Cheesequake service area on the Garden State Parkway is a median-located plaza accessible from both sides, but it has the added wrinkle of being located in the quad-carriageway portion. On the south side the ramps to and from the outer carriageway pass under the freeway. Access to and from the southbound carriageways is a little interesting–the inner carriageway has a direct ramp into the service area, while the outer carriageway has a left-side exit that goes down between the carriageways and then requires a left turn onto a two-way connection that also serves as the southbound exit back to the Parkway. I believe all northbound traffic leaving the plaza enters the inner carriageway because the carriageways merge back together a short distance to the north.
What makes it a bit more complex is that there is also commuter parking at that service area and it's accessed via a local street, such that commuters parking to take the bus need not pay a toll. It's been several years since I've stopped there and so I don't recall for certain, but a look at the satellite view (http://binged.it/PlkEBO) seems to indicate that someone accessing the commuter parking from the local street could proceed to enter the Parkway through the service area and vice-versa. (I have never had any reason to want to do that and so the idea of it never occurred to me.)
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 31, 2012, 08:27:51 AM
The Molly Pitcher Service Area on the NJ Turnpike Southbound between Exits 8A & 8 at one point served traffic from both directions - ramps on the northbound side were located on the right side of the roadway, crossing over to the service plaza.
The NB ramps provide access to State Police barracks that (I assume) are adjacent to the Service Area. Not sure if they ever served service area traffic from that side. Joyce Kilmer Service Area is a few miles further north on the northbound side.
@1995hoo & akotchi...I could've sworn one could access the service area from the NB side at one time, but a 20 minute Google Search came up empty. Looking at the aerial views, one can see the original ramps to/from the Northbound roadway curved towards the service plaza (as well as a local roadway), not the police barracks. It is also the only authorized-use only overpass over the turnpike that had looping ramps merging into the mainline highway, not the 90 degree turns or diamond-style ramps to/from the mainline most other authorized-use only overpasses have. (Well, the authorized-use only overpass just below interchange 7 had loop ramps too, but that was due to the overpass's original purpose, servicing the original Int 7 toll plaza)
For the general thread, especially in relation to the flyover ramps: On the NJ Turnpike in the dual-dual section, the turnpike utilizes flyover ramps to get to/from the service plazas. In fact, 3 of the service plazas in the Interchange 6 - 9 construction zone will have a very long ramp systems nearing a half-mile in length to get traffic to/from the highway, including transversing under local roads before they finally connect with the Turnpike, including flyover ramps to connect with the inner drives.
Thus, if they could do that, there must be a reason besides cost why they wouldn't build ramps to get to/from a service plaza on the opposite direction of travel.
I think I remember reading that the NB Molly Pitcher ramps were used for buses only. I guess that plaza was meant as a transfer station.
And with regards to why the NJ Tpke. plazas aren't always paired, there's some trapezoidal ROW on the unbuilt side that indicates that a plaza may have been planned. For (or four) example(s):
https://maps.google.com/?ll=39.884977,-75.001431&spn=0.008545,0.021136&t=h&z=16
https://maps.google.com/?ll=39.981494,-74.887276&spn=0.008533,0.021136&t=h&z=16
https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.071356,-74.758916&spn=0.008522,0.021136&t=h&z=16 (two unbuilt plazas)
https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.320046,-74.485545&spn=0.016982,0.042272&t=h&z=15
Quote from: Mr. Matté on July 31, 2012, 02:55:02 PM
I think I remember reading that the NB Molly Pitcher ramps were used for buses only. I guess that plaza was meant as a transfer station.
And with regards to why the NJ Tpke. plazas aren't always paired, there's some trapezoidal ROW on the unbuilt side that indicates that a plaza may have been planned. For (or four) example(s):
https://maps.google.com/?ll=39.884977,-75.001431&spn=0.008545,0.021136&t=h&z=16
https://maps.google.com/?ll=39.981494,-74.887276&spn=0.008533,0.021136&t=h&z=16
https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.071356,-74.758916&spn=0.008522,0.021136&t=h&z=16 (two unbuilt plazas)
https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.320046,-74.485545&spn=0.016982,0.042272&t=h&z=15
I once saw a list of all of the Turnpike service plazas. Those that had ever been built were named - NB at 13A and either direction on I-78. The others were just gaps in the numbering, pretty much, but absolutely accounted for. Unfortunately I don't remember where I saw the list - it was deep in an internal document.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 31, 2012, 01:08:54 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 31, 2012, 12:26:29 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 30, 2012, 05:58:51 PM
The Sideling Hill plaza on the Pennsylvania Turnpike is one facility for both directions of travel, served by a trumpet interchange. There's no way for motorists to make a U-turn here. I'm not sure what the cost differences would be in building a separate facility vs. building a bridge to serve a single facility.
there is a rest area on I-17 which is like this, except it has a diamond interchange, not a trumpet. it is located on the west side of the road, so northbound traffic has to cross under the freeway.
not sure why they built it that way.
The Cheesequake service area on the Garden State Parkway is a median-located plaza accessible from both sides, but it has the added wrinkle of being located in the quad-carriageway portion. On the south side the ramps to and from the outer carriageway pass under the freeway. Access to and from the southbound carriageways is a little interesting–the inner carriageway has a direct ramp into the service area, while the outer carriageway has a left-side exit that goes down between the carriageways and then requires a left turn onto a two-way connection that also serves as the southbound exit back to the Parkway. I believe all northbound traffic leaving the plaza enters the inner carriageway because the carriageways merge back together a short distance to the north.
What makes it a bit more complex is that there is also commuter parking at that service area and it's accessed via a local street, such that commuters parking to take the bus need not pay a toll. It's been several years since I've stopped there and so I don't recall for certain, but a look at the satellite view (http://binged.it/PlkEBO) seems to indicate that someone accessing the commuter parking from the local street could proceed to enter the Parkway through the service area and vice-versa. (I have never had any reason to want to do that and so the idea of it never occurred to me.)
You can absolutely do that. Heading southbound, take US 9 instead of the Parkway. Stay on 35 and take the next exit after US 9 leaves. Head west, turn in, and get back on the Parkway. Done that twice in the last month.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2012, 12:08:24 PM
The Kansas Turnpike is a ticket system turnpike that uses median service plazas. Originally there was no way of crossing over at them; with the reconstruction you now could, theoretically. However I believe the ticket notes the direction of travel so if you have an "impossible" itinerary they just ring it up as full fare, as if you got on at Oklahoma and got off at Kansas City.
I almost never look at my tickets when I use the Kansas Turnpike, but it wouldn't make sense for them to be direction-specific. With the exceptions of Interchanges 182/183, 197, and 212, all of the ticket booths are in advance of ramps that serve both directions of the Turnpike. That is, most use the classic trumpet configuration common to ticket-toll roads originally built in or around the 50s. Unless all the interchanges were reconfigured, there would be no way to control direction of travel.
Frankly, I don't see much an incentive to prevent U-turns at service plazas, either. Even if you enter at Interchange 19, go all the way to the Lawrence Service Area (between Exits 204 and 212), and turn around and get off at Exit 33, you haven't made a useful trip of greater than 14 miles, for most intents and purposes. Also, I know someone who worked at one of the service plazas, and he told me that when someone enters and exits at the same interchange, which is only legal* if that person turns around at a service plaza, then that person is charged for time instead of distance. I can't remember if he got a discount for working there.
*It is physically possible to make a U-turn at breaks in the barrier.
Edit: Oh, also, I don't think there's anything physical or regulatory that would prevent someone from turning around at Cattle Pens.
Another edit (if anyone's interested): It's also possible (physically and legally) to turn around at Exits 33, 39, 57, and 92 without going through the toll plaza.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2012, 12:08:24 PM
You can't have a thread like this without mention of the Wellston McDonalds (which is sadly now gone). The WB Turner Turnpike onramp from Wellston, OK begins at OK-66, passes through a coin-op toll gate, and then actually lets out into what was the service plaza parking lot. There is/was a small parking lot off the ramp upstream of the gate so employees could park without having to go through the toll gate (presumably from there the only way out would be onto the westbound turnpike, with no exits until Oklahoma City.)
What happened to it? That was where the group photo from the OKC meet was taken.
Quote from: Steve on July 31, 2012, 08:32:37 PM
You can absolutely do that. Heading southbound, take US 9 instead of the Parkway. Stay on 35 and take the next exit after US 9 leaves. Head west, turn in, and get back on the Parkway. Done that twice in the last month.
SSSHHHHH... You are giving secrets away. :)
The NJ Turnpike service areas are busy enough that it merits dedicated facilities in each direction. As for the Cheesequake Service Area on the GSP, that southbound ramp setup was installed about 10 years ago. It used to be you could only access it southbound from the express lanes. Instead of building new bridges, they used the existing local lane southbound onramp for two way traffic.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on July 31, 2012, 11:34:17 PMCheesequake
from Wikipedia:
QuoteThe name Cheesequake was derived from the Lenape Native American word Cheseh-oh-ke, meaning "upland" or "upland village".
well, I'm disappointed by that etymology. the modern name implied something equally as fun as - or perhaps even more fun than - the Boston molasses disaster.
One of the service areas on the Maine Turnpike required getting off and getting back on since it's only accessible from local streets near the northern end of I-295. This is only possible because they dropped the ticket system years ago in favor of a barrier system.
Quote from: deanej on August 01, 2012, 09:28:06 AM
One of the service areas on the Maine Turnpike required getting off and getting back on since it's only accessible from local streets near the northern end of I-295. This is only possible because they dropped the ticket system years ago in favor of a barrier system.
Yeah, we had a discussion about that service area, and the related toll setup, last year (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4594.0). Apparently the nearby barrier tolls necessitated a voucher system (done electronically for E-ZPass users) so they could use the service area without paying another toll. I commented on this and was told I was wrong, but nobody rebutted the materials I linked to show where I got that information (the last time I went past Portland on that road was 1989 going to and from PEI, and we didn't stop at that service area because we had just made an extended stop at LL Bean).
The Atlantic City Service Area on the Garden State Parkway in NJ is easily accessed via local county route 561 (Jimmie Leads Rd). This always had a strange history. Originally it was designed to be just an access road for employees for the service plaza, but general traffic started using it to access the service plaza and the highway, as well as using the service plaza as a park-and-ride. The authority and county continually upgraded the access road and intersection to provide for easier access, widening it and adding a traffic light at the Rt. 561 intersection, and adding signs within the plaza for Jimmie Leads Rd, while the whole time maintaining it's not an official entry/exit point for the Parkway.
The problem is now the Parkway is building an official interchange there (Exit 41), utilizing a normal diamond ramp system from the mainline parkway to 561. The problem many locals have is it will cut off their access to the service plaza.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 30, 2012, 03:24:11 PM
What I found interesting in Florida was the way the service plazas were positioned in the median even on the "ticket system" portion, and there was nothing preventing a driver from turning around via the service area if he so chose.
...
But the Florida setup was the first time I could recall seeing median-based service plazas on a ticket-system toll road and I found myself thinking, "You know, this makes a lot of sense, and if you're paranoid about U-turns you could just design the place to prevent traffic from crossing over." If you really wanted to do it right you could probably set up the gas station with a wall down the middle to segregate the traffic.
...
So what is the rationale for preferring to locate the service plazas on the outside of the road, given that it requires the construction of additional facilities and adds the expense of additional maintenance?
Florida's Turnpike was created from scratch in the 1950s, whereas I'm guessing that many toll roads in the Northeast were created from roads that were already in existence. Maybe it was just easier to modify service facilities that were also already there, in some form or another. I don't know enough about them, to be honest. What I have read is that the Florida's Turnpike involved some of cost cutting during its initial construction; some plazas were never built, and many interchanges had to wait to be implemented fully.
There's only eight service plazas on the FT; the ones in urban areas are very close to exits, so there's very little compelling reason to jump around from northbound to southbound. Back during the proliferation of the ticket system, the ticket would denote what toll booth you received the ticket from (it would be hole-punched at the toll plaza at the beginning of the trumpet interchange), and from which direction, if you received it one from one of the barrier tolls. The bottom of the card warned you that you'd pay the maximum toll if you didn't rejoin properly, or if the card went missing.
The service plazas in rural areas also feature exits that are quite some distance apart; there would be no actual gain by wasting 40+ miles just to make a U-turn. Why spend money on a wall or fence to save people from wasting their time from their own idiocy? Most motorists don't intentionally do this, since you'd pay a fee coming back one way or the other when you leave the Turnpike.
I can think of one place where you can pay no toll whatsoever, but you spend
more time and mileage doing so, rather than just using the surface streets. We made good use of it when I worked at a dealership, but only if you wanted to "duplicate" vibrations, noise, rattles, et cetera at highway speeds, without causing mayhem on the local roads and keeping customers' mileage low. Get off at one exit before the service plaza and barrier toll, drive a mile or two, rejoin via a legal U-turn at the service plaza, then use the same exit northbound after "crossing over". It's pretty well signed so that motorists don't go the wrong way within the plazas.
Edited to sound less like Borat for the make good of smartestphones. Formulanash!
Quote from: formulanone on August 01, 2012, 12:11:56 PM
Florida's Turnpike was created from scratch in the 1950s, whereas I'm guessing that many toll roads in the Northeast were created from roads that were already in existence. Maybe it was just easier to modify service facilities that were also already there, in some form or another. I don't know enough about them, to be honest.
The northeast toll roads were created from scratch too, mostly in the late 40s/early 50s. There were no existing freeways, and no existing service plazas.
what is the concern with U-turns? can someone give an example of avoiding paying a fare through strategic use of U-turns?
the way I am imagining it, you are issued a ticket based on where you enter, and if you end up going in the "wrong direction" they either will not notice (because the ticket is identical to go in either direction at a given entry point), or they will notice and charge you the maximum, as though you had entered at the most costly endpoint of the toll road.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 01, 2012, 12:24:59 PM
what is the concern with U-turns? can someone give an example of avoiding paying a fare through strategic use of U-turns?
the way I am imagining it, you are issued a ticket based on where you enter, and if you end up going in the "wrong direction" they either will not notice (because the ticket is identical to go in either direction at a given entry point), or they will notice and charge you the maximum, as though you had entered at the most costly endpoint of the toll road.
The latter is how it works in New Jersey. I haven't gotten a toll ticket there since 2001, but the last time I saw one it looked the same as they had since at least the 1970s–the entry point number was in large print and then for every other interchange it listed the toll from your entry point. Instead of listing a toll for your entry point it said "No U-Turn," and if you either lost the ticket or made a U-turn you would be charged the highest possible toll for your vehicle class. I understand this as meaning as though you had gone from the southernmost end all the way to the northernmost end or vice-versa–not the highest possible toll from your entry point. It makes sense to make it the highest possible, period, if you lump lost toll tickets in there, because how would they know where the person with the lost ticket entered?
Of course, they'd only know you made a U-turn if you got off at the same interchange where you started–say if you had left your wallet at a restaurant or some such and you cut a u-ie to go back and get it. If you entered the Turnpike at its southern end, drove all the way up to Newark, then used one of the "authorized vehicles only" overpasses to turn around and drive back to I-195 to go to Trenton, you'd be charged for the drive from Exit 1 to Exit 7A without regard for the U-turn, as they'd have no way of knowing you'd gone all that extra distance unless a cop caught you on the turnaround.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 01, 2012, 12:30:50 PMI understand this as meaning as though you had gone from the southernmost end all the way to the northernmost end or vice-versa–not the highest possible toll from your entry point.
I would assume the highest possible toll
given your exit point. for southern exits, it would be the assumption that you entered at the north end. for northern exits, the assumption is that you entered at the south end. there is some point in the middle where the source of the maximum changes polarity.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 01, 2012, 12:24:59 PM
what is the concern with U-turns? can someone give an example of avoiding paying a fare through strategic use of U-turns?
I think it's to avoid widespread exchanging of tickets with other drivers.
Quote from: NE2 on August 01, 2012, 02:29:05 PM
I think it's to avoid widespread exchanging of tickets with other drivers.
can't this be achieved even in the absence of U-turns? the way I understand the NJTP ticket system, you'd just need to meet someone traveling in the opposite direction as you and exchange tickets over a fence.
for example, A wants to travel exits 2 to 18, and B to travel exits 17 to 1.
A gives B a "2" ticket, B gives A a "17" ticket.
A exits at 18 with his 17 ticket. B exits at 1 with his 2 ticket. They both save. No U-turns needed.
edit: apparently the exits above "14" get a bit interesting. assume for the purpose of this discussion they just go 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. I believe my point remains valid.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 01, 2012, 02:38:32 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 01, 2012, 02:29:05 PM
I think it's to avoid widespread exchanging of tickets with other drivers.
can't this be achieved even in the absence of U-turns? the way I understand the NJTP ticket system, you'd just need to meet someone traveling in the opposite direction as you and exchange tickets over a fence.
for example, A wants to travel exits 2 to 18, and B to travel exits 17 to 1.
A gives B a "2" ticket, B gives A a "17" ticket.
A exits at 18 with his 17 ticket. B exits at 1 with his 2 ticket. They both save. No U-turns needed.
Yeah, I suppose so. (Though the more plausible scenario is that A gets on at 1, B at 18, and then they get off early at 17 and 2 to avoid the restriction on U-turning.)
[edit]I was talking about the prohibition on U-turning built into the system. The separation of lanes at service plazas is most likely done so eejits don't get on the wrong way after gassing up.
Apparently Florida allows U-turns: http://www.floridasturnpike.com/downloads/Indexed%20U%20Turn%20Rates.pdf I would guess that the 10 cent toll at Lake Worth is to encourage locals to use the service plaza.
Quote from: NE2 on August 01, 2012, 02:43:49 PM
Yeah, I suppose so. (Though the more plausible scenario is that A gets on at 1, B at 18, and then they get off early at 17 and 2 to avoid the restriction on U-turning.)
good point. I'd done the necessary shift backwards in my head.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 01, 2012, 02:38:32 PM
can't this be achieved even in the absence of U-turns? the way I understand the NJTP ticket system, you'd just need to meet someone traveling in the opposite direction as you and exchange tickets over a fence.
Except...there are no common service plazas or other areas where one can meet up to exchange tickets. Which could also be a reason why the service plazas are separate for Northbound and Southbound traffic.
Quote from: NE2 on August 01, 2012, 02:43:49 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 01, 2012, 02:38:32 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 01, 2012, 02:29:05 PM
I think it's to avoid widespread exchanging of tickets with other drivers.
can't this be achieved even in the absence of U-turns? the way I understand the NJTP ticket system, you'd just need to meet someone traveling in the opposite direction as you and exchange tickets over a fence.
for example, A wants to travel exits 2 to 18, and B to travel exits 17 to 1.
A gives B a "2" ticket, B gives A a "17" ticket.
A exits at 18 with his 17 ticket. B exits at 1 with his 2 ticket. They both save. No U-turns needed.
Yeah, I suppose so. (Though the more plausible scenario is that A gets on at 1, B at 18, and then they get off early at 17 and 2 to avoid the restriction on U-turning.)
[edit]I was talking about the prohibition on U-turning built into the system. The separation of lanes at service plazas is most likely done so eejits don't get on the wrong way after gassing up.
Apparently Florida allows U-turns: http://www.floridasturnpike.com/downloads/Indexed%20U%20Turn%20Rates.pdf I would guess that the 10 cent toll at Lake Worth is to encourage locals to use the service plaza.
Florida does allow U-turns at the service areas; as I said in my original post to start this thread, that's what prompted me to begin the discussion.
AARoads has the following picture of the Port St Lucie Service Plaza on Florida's Turnpike. The caption quoted below appears on the page where this photo resides. That particular plaza is the one at which I stopped in Florida that prompted me to raise the question here.
Quote(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.southeastroads.com%2Fflorida999%2Ffl-tpk_nb_exit_152_06.jpg&hash=7be44cf06a4e7a50557f9ed564e20d97f0d5dcd8)
Turnpike trailblazers posted within the Port St. Lucie Service Plaza. The concept of being able to turn around at a service plaza is unheard of along other ticketed turnpikes such as those in Pennsylvania or New Jersey. When turning around on those, the maximum toll is levied onto motorists, as U-turns are illegal otherwise. Photo taken 02/16/08.
Here is an aerial view of where that plaza is located.]http://binged.it/OpAHT8]Here is an aerial view of where that plaza is located. (http://binged.it/OpAHT8) I have no idea when the surrounding area was developed since HistoricAerials.com doesn't have old pictures there.
Quote from: NE2 on August 01, 2012, 02:43:49 PM
Apparently Florida allows U-turns: http://www.floridasturnpike.com/downloads/Indexed%20U%20Turn%20Rates.pdf I would guess that the 10 cent toll at Lake Worth is to encourage locals to use the service plaza.
Heh, reminds me of the first time I drove on the Crosstown Expressway in 1994; the Willow Avenue exit was 10 cents. They should have just asked for a dollar from every tenth car.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 01, 2012, 03:19:16 PM
Except...there are no common service plazas or other areas where one can meet up to exchange tickets. Which could also be a reason why the service plazas are separate for Northbound and Southbound traffic.
I wonder how much more marginally expensive it is to build two sets of facilities. and then, divide that by the loss in revenue of the average ticket swap scam. I'm imagining that a
lot of dishonest folks are needed to make that be the reason for two facilities.
the logical conclusion is: there's another reason. it probably does have more to do with employee access than anything else.
Somehow I can't help but feel that we're overthinking this. It seems to me that the question of one service plaza versus two was probably not the subject of extensive analysis and deliberation when these old toll roads were laid out. There is no particular reason for two instead of one, it's just the way the planners drew it up and no one thought to question it.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 01, 2012, 12:47:46 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 01, 2012, 12:30:50 PMI understand this as meaning as though you had gone from the southernmost end all the way to the northernmost end or vice-versa–not the highest possible toll from your entry point.
I would assume the highest possible toll given your exit point. for southern exits, it would be the assumption that you entered at the north end. for northern exits, the assumption is that you entered at the south end. there is some point in the middle where the source of the maximum changes polarity.
This is the correct interpretation. As for places to exchange tickets, you could both pull over at an interchange, swap, and then both U-turn before the plaza. I don't think they would look too kindly on that.
Quote from: Steve on August 01, 2012, 07:45:42 PM
This is the correct interpretation. As for places to exchange tickets, you could both pull over at an interchange, swap, and then both U-turn before the plaza. I don't think they would look too kindly on that.
the only time I've ever U-turned was to take photos of
both gantries featuring black signs on the Turnpike Extension. I still ended up paying something like $7 to drive effectively nowhere, so I don't think they protested too much.
Quote from: Duke87 on August 01, 2012, 07:18:45 PM
Somehow I can't help but feel that we're overthinking this. It seems to me that the question of one service plaza versus two was probably not the subject of extensive analysis and deliberation when these old toll roads were laid out. There is no particular reason for two instead of one, it's just the way the planners drew it up and no one thought to question it.
I don't know about that.
Having one service plaza to serve both directions (especially if the directional flows of traffic are rather different from each other) would get more use out of one set of service plaza buildings and related infrastructure (employee and patron parking capacity, electric, (possibly) gas, water, sewer, and stormwater management).
IMO, having a service plaza on the median, with flyovers for access and egress (for purposes of discussion, I am not assuming a "dual-dual" configuration like parts of the New Jersey Turnpike), or a Sidling Hill-style plaza on one side, with ramps for traffic from the other side, would seem to make the most sense,
if the land is available.
And there's the curious matter of the Ontario Service Centre on Highway 400 near Cookstown, where the service plaza is located
inside a rather expansive interchange (in terms of land area, not complexity) at Ontario Route 89 (Google Maps here (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=highway+400+cookstown+ontario+&hl=en&ll=44.200713,-79.653561&spn=0.007876,0.01929&sll=44.283634,-79.681106&sspn=0.251681,0.617294&t=h&hq=highway+400&hnear=Cookstown,+Simcoe+County,+Ontario,+Canada&fll=44.20119,-79.653904&fspn=0.007938,0.01929&z=16)). Of course, Highway 400, like most limited-access highways in Ontario, does not charge tolls, so there are no issues with U-turns and the like - and no silly federal prohibition against "commercial" service plazas on the "free" freeway network either - though the one modern toll road in Ontario, Highway 407, does not have service plazas, perhaps because it runs through a mostly suburban area.
Quote from: formulanone on August 01, 2012, 03:55:30 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 01, 2012, 02:43:49 PM
Apparently Florida allows U-turns: http://www.floridasturnpike.com/downloads/Indexed%20U%20Turn%20Rates.pdf I would guess that the 10 cent toll at Lake Worth is to encourage locals to use the service plaza.
Heh, reminds me of the first time I drove on the Crosstown Expressway in 1994; the Willow Avenue exit was 10 cents. They should have just asked for a dollar from every tenth car.
At least some of the ramp tolls (exact change only) on the old (now de-tolled) Norfolk-Virginia Beach Expressway (Va. Route 44 back then, I-264 now) were a dime (and there were signs warning
TOLL VIOLATORS PROSECUTED - though for a dime, I wonder how many people were actually prosecuted by the Commonwealth).
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 01, 2012, 08:00:55 PM
Quote from: Steve on August 01, 2012, 07:45:42 PM
This is the correct interpretation. As for places to exchange tickets, you could both pull over at an interchange, swap, and then both U-turn before the plaza. I don't think they would look too kindly on that.
the only time I've ever U-turned was to take photos of both gantries featuring black signs on the Turnpike Extension. I still ended up paying something like $7 to drive effectively nowhere, so I don't think they protested too much.
A lot cheaper: Get on at 14A (the busy one), then get off at 14B, stop for a moment and line up your photo (very uncrowded there).
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 01, 2012, 04:04:09 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 01, 2012, 03:19:16 PM
Except...there are no common service plazas or other areas where one can meet up to exchange tickets. Which could also be a reason why the service plazas are separate for Northbound and Southbound traffic.
I wonder how much more marginally expensive it is to build two sets of facilities. and then, divide that by the loss in revenue of the average ticket swap scam. I'm imagining that a lot of dishonest folks are needed to make that be the reason for two facilities.
the logical conclusion is: there's another reason. it probably does have more to do with employee access than anything else.
I suspect one of the reasons to build dual plazas has little to do with either deterring ticket "cheaters" or improving employee access. IMO, there's a much more practical reason - to minimize the chances of patrons re-entering the highway in the wrong direction (not "wrong way" entry, but going north when they intended to go south).
As far as the economics, I agree that the Illinois Tollway has the right idea - have separate (and divided) parking facilities that connect to common food services above the highway.
Quote from: roadman on August 01, 2012, 08:38:25 PM
I suspect one of the reasons to build dual plazas has little to do with either deterring ticket "cheaters" or improving employee access. IMO, there's a much more practical reason - to minimize the chances of patrons re-entering the highway in the wrong direction (not "wrong way" entry, but going north when they intended to go south).
As far as the economics, I agree that the Illinois Tollway has the right idea - have separate (and divided) parking facilities that connect to common food services above the highway.
Come to think of it, I can think of one reason toll road authorities might have an incentive to prevent U-turns: extra revenue could be made from people who miss their exits if they aren't allowed to turn around and go back to their intended exit. I guess some turnpike authorities (New Jersey and Pennsylvania) just feel more strongly about this than others (Florida and Kansas).
As far as general U-turn issues, I believe the big reason they hate it is because U-turns on freeways (and everywhere else except some intersections on expressways) are illegal in the northeast. The service areas that have separated parking areas could easily be idiot prevention. The separate facilities is just how they got laid out - most of the time the facilities for the other direction are miles away anyways.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 01, 2012, 09:52:44 AM
Yeah, we had a discussion about that service area, and the related toll setup, last year (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4594.0). Apparently the nearby barrier tolls necessitated a voucher system (done electronically for E-ZPass users) so they could use the service area without paying another toll. I commented on this and was told I was wrong, but nobody rebutted the materials I linked to show where I got that information (the last time I went past Portland on that road was 1989 going to and from PEI, and we didn't stop at that service area because we had just made an extended stop at LL Bean).
The Vauxhall service area on the GSP is like this and used to have a nasty twist. The service area is on the northbound side of the highway. There are signs at southbound Exit 141 (Vauxhall Rd.) advertising the service area. All you have to do is exit, make a left and there is local access to the service area (this also serves as an official northbound onramp). Here is where it used to get evil, to get back onto the Parkway, you have to get back on Vauxhall Rd., cross the GSP, make a right onto Union Ave. and use an on-ramp just north of the Union Toll Plaza. Prior to this plaza going one way, southbound traffic wanting to use the Vauxhall service area had to privilege of paying the Union barrier toll twice!
Quote from: NJRoadfan on August 01, 2012, 10:21:11 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 01, 2012, 09:52:44 AM
Yeah, we had a discussion about that service area, and the related toll setup, last year (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4594.0). Apparently the nearby barrier tolls necessitated a voucher system (done electronically for E-ZPass users) so they could use the service area without paying another toll. I commented on this and was told I was wrong, but nobody rebutted the materials I linked to show where I got that information (the last time I went past Portland on that road was 1989 going to and from PEI, and we didn't stop at that service area because we had just made an extended stop at LL Bean).
The Vauxhall service area on the GSP is like this and used to have a nasty twist. The service area is on the northbound side of the highway. There are signs at southbound Exit 141 (Vauxhall Rd.) advertising the service area. All you have to do is exit, make a left and there is local access to the service area (this also serves as an official northbound onramp). Here is where it used to get evil, to get back onto the Parkway, you have to get back on Vauxhall Rd., cross the GSP, make a right onto Union Ave. and use an on-ramp just north of the Union Toll Plaza. Prior to this plaza going one way, southbound traffic wanting to use the Vauxhall service area had to privilege of paying the Union barrier toll twice!
Or anyone in the know could head down Vauxhall to Stuyvesant and get on at 140/141 for free. Of course, there's the opposite twist, which is that the service area becomes a de facto last chance NB exit. The catch is that it's actually slower than Chestnut when heading west.
For those who wonder why the trumpet ramp at the Molly Pitcher Service Area is there is cause years ago behind the Service Area was a Charter Bus Stop that provided service to bus passengers that are usually not allowed at most other service areas. It was accessible from either direction and open at certain times of the day. It was closed sometime in mid 1980s and yes the overpass is over a fence in the median. That fence is to keep pedestrians from jaywalking across the busy highway.
The big question I have is why the Vince Lombardi and Alexander Hamilton areas so close to each other giving the SB direction one additional area if they use the eastern spur? I would have figured that the AH plaza would have been shut down when the Vince Lombardi opened when the western spur opened to traffic. The AH was the counterpart to the defunct Admiral Halsey Service Area in Elizabeth at Exit 13A.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 01, 2012, 08:05:58 PM
Quote from: formulanone on August 01, 2012, 03:55:30 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 01, 2012, 02:43:49 PM
Apparently Florida allows U-turns: http://www.floridasturnpike.com/downloads/Indexed%20U%20Turn%20Rates.pdf I would guess that the 10 cent toll at Lake Worth is to encourage locals to use the service plaza.
Heh, reminds me of the first time I drove on the Crosstown Expressway in 1994; the Willow Avenue exit was 10 cents. They should have just asked for a dollar from every tenth car.
At least some of the ramp tolls (exact change only) on the old (now de-tolled) Norfolk-Virginia Beach Expressway (Va. Route 44 back then, I-264 now) were a dime (and there were signs warning TOLL VIOLATORS PROSECUTED - though for a dime, I wonder how many people were actually prosecuted by the Commonwealth).
There were many times that the dimes got stuck in the toll basket. The light would stay red, but you would just drive through, listening to the bell ring when you drove over the sensor. I didn't see anyone get caught--even seeing some drive through the toll area without dropping their dime.
Most toll booths in rural parts of México have bathrooms and at least a small convenience store, located along the sides of the road just past the toll booth in each direction. A few here and there also have gas stations and restaurants in the same facility, or at least very nearby. On the free four-lane roads, only a handful have median service areas, while most are located along the sides; sometimes there's one on each side, sometimes there's only one but you're allowed to turn left, sometimes access is via U turn, sometimes they're along the sides but a mile apart–no apparent rhyme or reason.
México doesn't seem too concerned with U-turning traffic on toll roads. Their main concern in limiting access appears to be preventing locals from skipping the toll booth; this is mainly done using fences and hard curbs near bridges and side roads. As has been mentioned, who cares if someone can or cannot go the other way from a service area? It just ends up costing you more in nearly every situation.
^^ Interesting. ISTHA toll plazas do have washrooms, but it's a bit of an open secret as few other than the toll collectors know they're there. Granted, most never stop at a toll plaza anymore as they (85%) have an I-Pass or an EZ-Pass.
Quote from: formulanone on August 01, 2012, 12:11:56 PM
Florida's Turnpike was created from scratch in the 1950s, whereas I'm guessing that many toll roads in the Northeast were created from roads that were already in existence.
All the turnpikes were built as new-location freeways.
Florida's Turnpike was originally named the Sunshine State Parkway.
Per Wiki --
From its opening in January 1957 to April 12, 1968, the road was known as the Sunshine State Parkway (SSP). On April 12, 1968, the road was renamed to its current name of Florida's Turnpike, to identify that the toll road was located in Florida and to avoid confusion from other Florida landmarks such as the Sunshine Skyway Bridge.
Per Beltway --
The name Sunshine State is widely known to refer to Florida, and who while riding on the highway would not realize that it is in Florida? The northernmost part is still about 150 miles from the next state. The old name was perfectly fine, IMHO, and is more familiar to me as we lived there in the 1960s.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 01, 2012, 04:04:09 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 01, 2012, 03:19:16 PM
Except...there are no common service plazas or other areas where one can meet up to exchange tickets. Which could also be a reason why the service plazas are separate for Northbound and Southbound traffic.
the logical conclusion is: there's another reason. it probably does have more to do with employee access than anything else.
Suppliers to the facility. That gas, burgers, tacos, and cheap souviniers has to be brought in by truck. Facilities on the outside of the toll road allow the suppliers to reach the customer without having to pay the tolls. Florida may very well have a system set up where the vendor is reimbursed (for cash) or not charged (Sunpass).
Quote from: tvketchum on September 04, 2012, 09:40:38 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 01, 2012, 04:04:09 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 01, 2012, 03:19:16 PM
Except...there are no common service plazas or other areas where one can meet up to exchange tickets. Which could also be a reason why the service plazas are separate for Northbound and Southbound traffic.
the logical conclusion is: there's another reason. it probably does have more to do with employee access than anything else.
Suppliers to the facility. That gas, burgers, tacos, and cheap souviniers has to be brought in by truck. Facilities on the outside of the toll road allow the suppliers to reach the customer without having to pay the tolls. Florida may very well have a system set up where the vendor is reimbursed (for cash) or not charged (Sunpass).
The NJ Turnpike uses Sunoco Fuel, and they enter and exit the turnpike at regular interchanges to reach the service plazas.
I never took notice if the food/merchandise vendors do the same however.
Quote from: kphoger on September 04, 2012, 08:41:49 PM
México doesn't seem too concerned with U-turning traffic on toll roads. Their main concern in limiting access appears to be preventing locals from skipping the toll booth; this is mainly done using fences and hard curbs near bridges and side roads. As has been mentioned, who cares if someone can or cannot go the other way from a service area? It just ends up costing you more in nearly every situation.
I can see it on ticket systems, as the rates are set based on a per-mile toll, and if you turn around, you drive more miles, but don't pay more in tolls. The u turn paranoia also is probably done to enforce the prohibitions on u turns in northeastern states.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 05, 2012, 11:13:01 AM
The NJ Turnpike uses Sunoco Fuel, and they enter and exit the turnpike at regular interchanges to reach the service plazas.
I never took notice if the food/merchandise vendors do the same however.
I would imagine there are special tickets issued to vendors, suppliers, toll collectors, police, construction workers, Barzini's men, etc...
Quote from: hbelkins on July 31, 2012, 10:19:49 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 31, 2012, 12:08:24 PM
You can't have a thread like this without mention of the Wellston McDonalds (which is sadly now gone). The WB Turner Turnpike onramp from Wellston, OK begins at OK-66, passes through a coin-op toll gate, and then actually lets out into what was the service plaza parking lot. There is/was a small parking lot off the ramp upstream of the gate so employees could park without having to go through the toll gate (presumably from there the only way out would be onto the westbound turnpike, with no exits until Oklahoma City.)
What happened to it? That was where the group photo from the OKC meet was taken.
I know, I was there ;) The McDonald's has since been demolished. Traffic getting on there is channeled through the former parking lot by Jersey barriers. The rest of the lot appears to be used for OTA storage now.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2012, 11:30:09 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 05, 2012, 11:13:01 AM
The NJ Turnpike uses Sunoco Fuel, and they enter and exit the turnpike at regular interchanges to reach the service plazas.
I never took notice if the food/merchandise vendors do the same however.
I would imagine there are special tickets issued to vendors, suppliers, toll collectors, police, construction workers, Barzini's men, etc...
The N.J. Turnpike Authority does not usually give free passage to its vendors (at least not any longer), though they may give special allowance to Sunoco's fuel transports, which the NJTA presumably would prefer to keep on the Turnpike instead of smaller "free" roads.
Many (most?) of the service plazas on the Turnpike have "back gates" and parking areas for employees so they do not have to drive on the Pike itself to get to work.
Examples include the two plazas near the south end of the N.J. Turnpike in Salem County here (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Pedricktown,+NJ&hl=en&ll=39.696753,-75.393784&spn=0.009229,0.01929&sll=39.697562,-75.393934&sspn=0.009229,0.01929&t=h&gl=us&hnear=Pedricktown,+Salem,+New+Jersey&z=16), Clara Barton on the southbound side and John Fenwick northbound.
Obviously this does not work when the plaza is on the median of the highway, as most of them are on the Garden State Parkway. On I-95 in Delaware and Maryland, it is possible to reach the median service plazas without paying any toll, so it's a non-issue.
Police cars that patrol toll roads (and presumably other official vehicles) are issued "non-revenue" E-ZPass transponders (in Maryland they are usually colored orange).
And the Turnpike does not give Barzini's boys any special deal. Recall the opening credits to "The Sopranos," where Tony had to get an entrance ticket like everyone else?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2012, 11:30:09 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 05, 2012, 11:13:01 AM
The NJ Turnpike uses Sunoco Fuel, and they enter and exit the turnpike at regular interchanges to reach the service plazas.
I never took notice if the food/merchandise vendors do the same however.
I would imagine there are special tickets issued to vendors, suppliers, toll collectors, police, construction workers, Barzini's men, etc...
Way back in the pre and early EZ Pass days, Sunoco drivers used a special swipe card when entering and exiting the Turnpike. Whether Sunoco was billed directly or this allowed them free passes, us toll collectors didn't know (nor care, really). I think the Turnpike also had a very limited number of corporate accounts in which truckers or bus companies used swipe cards as well, rather than using the ticket system. State Police had the swipe cards also and were supposed to use them when entering and exiting the turnpike.
Of course, these swipe cards are a distant memory. Everything is EZ Pass based now.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 06, 2012, 08:30:56 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2012, 11:30:09 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 05, 2012, 11:13:01 AM
The NJ Turnpike uses Sunoco Fuel, and they enter and exit the turnpike at regular interchanges to reach the service plazas.
I never took notice if the food/merchandise vendors do the same however.
I would imagine there are special tickets issued to vendors, suppliers, toll collectors, police, construction workers, Barzini's men, etc...
Way back in the pre and early EZ Pass days, Sunoco drivers used a special swipe card when entering and exiting the Turnpike. Whether Sunoco was billed directly or this allowed them free passes, us toll collectors didn't know (nor care, really). I think the Turnpike also had a very limited number of corporate accounts in which truckers or bus companies used swipe cards as well, rather than using the ticket system. State Police had the swipe cards also and were supposed to use them when entering and exiting the turnpike.
Of course, these swipe cards are a distant memory. Everything is EZ Pass based now.
The Ohio Turnpike was the last (large) toll road in the East to add E-ZPass toll collection, and relatively recently was still issuing swipe cards for payment of tolls.
Are the non-revenue E-ZPass transponders colored orange in New Jersey like they are in Maryland?
Quote from: deanej on September 05, 2012, 11:23:57 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 04, 2012, 08:41:49 PM
México doesn't seem too concerned with U-turning traffic on toll roads. Their main concern in limiting access appears to be preventing locals from skipping the toll booth; this is mainly done using fences and hard curbs near bridges and side roads. As has been mentioned, who cares if someone can or cannot go the other way from a service area? It just ends up costing you more in nearly every situation.
I can see it on ticket systems, as the rates are set based on a per-mile toll, and if you turn around, you drive more miles, but don't pay more in tolls. The u turn paranoia also is probably done to enforce the prohibitions on u turns in northeastern states.
Toll roads in México use a simple barrier system. Booths are located on the mainline, and all traffic stops (unless they use a pass). There are usually small booths on entrance/exit ramps as well; many interchanges are configured so as to include exiting and/or entering traffic at the toll booth.
Quote from: kphoger on September 06, 2012, 02:00:06 PM
Quote from: deanej on September 05, 2012, 11:23:57 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 04, 2012, 08:41:49 PM
México doesn't seem too concerned with U-turning traffic on toll roads. Their main concern in limiting access appears to be preventing locals from skipping the toll booth; this is mainly done using fences and hard curbs near bridges and side roads. As has been mentioned, who cares if someone can or cannot go the other way from a service area? It just ends up costing you more in nearly every situation.
I can see it on ticket systems, as the rates are set based on a per-mile toll, and if you turn around, you drive more miles, but don't pay more in tolls. The u turn paranoia also is probably done to enforce the prohibitions on u turns in northeastern states.
Toll roads in México use a simple barrier system. Booths are located on the mainline, and all traffic stops (unless they use a pass). There are usually small booths on entrance/exit ramps as well; many interchanges are configured so as to include exiting and/or entering traffic at the toll booth.
Only toll road I have ever been on in Mexico is Baja California's Route 1D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Federal_Highway_1D) along the Pacific Coast between Tijuana and Ensenada.
All toll collection was at barrier-type toll plazas, I don't recall seeing any ramp tolls at all.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 06, 2012, 09:20:30 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 06, 2012, 08:30:56 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2012, 11:30:09 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 05, 2012, 11:13:01 AM
The NJ Turnpike uses Sunoco Fuel, and they enter and exit the turnpike at regular interchanges to reach the service plazas.
I never took notice if the food/merchandise vendors do the same however.
I would imagine there are special tickets issued to vendors, suppliers, toll collectors, police, construction workers, Barzini's men, etc...
Way back in the pre and early EZ Pass days, Sunoco drivers used a special swipe card when entering and exiting the Turnpike. Whether Sunoco was billed directly or this allowed them free passes, us toll collectors didn't know (nor care, really). I think the Turnpike also had a very limited number of corporate accounts in which truckers or bus companies used swipe cards as well, rather than using the ticket system. State Police had the swipe cards also and were supposed to use them when entering and exiting the turnpike.
Of course, these swipe cards are a distant memory. Everything is EZ Pass based now.
The Ohio Turnpike was the last (large) toll road in the East to add E-ZPass toll collection, and relatively recently was still issuing swipe cards for payment of tolls.
Are the non-revenue E-ZPass transponders colored orange in New Jersey like they are in Maryland?
As far as I have noticed, NJ (along with PA & DE) only issue white and blue EZ Passes. White is the standard passenger car tag; Blue is for commercial, government, and everything else.
I doubt it means anything: I've noticed the Kennebunk rest area on I-95/Maine Turnpike is adjacent to Exit 25 (ME Route 35), especially the southbound one. Now I can't remember the setup there before 1986. However, I do know that it's still in the same area as then. The buildings were redone a few years ago.
I remember back when Fast Lane/EZ-Pass first came along, the Mass Tpk issued orange "non-revenue" transponders to residents of western MA that were useable only west of exit 6 (where there is no toll charged for passenger cars). I think they phased those out years ago, though.
As for weird servic area positioning, how about the official serivce areas that are actually located off the highway on a connecting road, requiring you to enter/exit at a regular interchange. I can think of two exampes: the new West Gardiner service area on the Maine Turnpike, and the Barnstable service area on US-6 on Cape Cod. Any others out there like this?
Quote from: Beeper1 on September 07, 2012, 05:01:08 PM
As for weird servic area positioning, how about the official serivce areas that are actually located off the highway on a connecting road, requiring you to enter/exit at a regular interchange. I can think of two exampes: the new West Gardiner service area on the Maine Turnpike, and the Barnstable service area on US-6 on Cape Cod. Any others out there like this?
The eastern Pennsylvania Welcome Center off I-80 in Del. Water Gap (https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.990779,-75.141935&spn=0.003207,0.006968&t=h&z=18). On the subject of that place, it looks like the EB I-80 rest area by Camelback (just after 380) is now closed based on the new Google imagery of the area. Is this a permanent closure?
Quote from: Beeper1 on September 07, 2012, 05:01:08 PM
As for weird servic area positioning, how about the official serivce areas that are actually located off the highway on a connecting road, requiring you to enter/exit at a regular interchange. I can think of two exampes: the new West Gardiner service area on the Maine Turnpike, and the Barnstable service area on US-6 on Cape Cod. Any others out there like this?
There are some on Interstates, mostly out west.
Quote from: NE2 on September 07, 2012, 06:15:21 PM
Quote from: Beeper1 on September 07, 2012, 05:01:08 PM
As for weird servic area positioning, how about the official serivce areas that are actually located off the highway on a connecting road, requiring you to enter/exit at a regular interchange. I can think of two exampes: the new West Gardiner service area on the Maine Turnpike, and the Barnstable service area on US-6 on Cape Cod. Any others out there like this?
There are some on Interstates, mostly out west.
IIRC, Colorado does this with all of their rest areas (at least the I-76 and I-70 ones I've seen). Wyoming has several along I-80 like that. The Nevada ones I've seen (I-80 West Wendover, I-15) are like that as well. Further east, Iowa has a welcome center like that at I-80 & US-67; and Wisconsin has one like that at I-94 just north of the Illinois state line.
Quote from: Brandon on September 07, 2012, 06:46:52 PM
IIRC, Colorado does this with all of their rest areas (at least the I-76 and I-70 ones I've seen). Wyoming has several along I-80 like that. The Nevada ones I've seen (I-80 West Wendover, I-15) are like that as well. Further east, Iowa has a welcome center like that at I-80 & US-67; and Wisconsin has one like that at I-94 just north of the Illinois state line.
Last time I was in Wyoming (June), we stopped at one at I-25 and US 26 that was like this as well.
I-84 exit 228 (Deadman Pass, just east of Emigrant Hill) is a diamond interchange with two rest areas, one on each side. Presumably they didn't combine them because the underpass under I-84 is one-lane.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=45.600257,-118.507161&spn=0.027384,0.066047&gl=us&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=45.600205,-118.507221&panoid=Nv5f6kEN-CeuYBTku6-Vzw&cbp=12,142.92,,0,4.15
Quote from: Kacie Jane on September 07, 2012, 11:14:05 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 07, 2012, 06:46:52 PM
IIRC, Colorado does this with all of their rest areas (at least the I-76 and I-70 ones I've seen). Wyoming has several along I-80 like that. The Nevada ones I've seen (I-80 West Wendover, I-15) are like that as well. Further east, Iowa has a welcome center like that at I-80 & US-67; and Wisconsin has one like that at I-94 just north of the Illinois state line.
Last time I was in Wyoming (June), we stopped at one at I-25 and US 26 that was like this as well.
But these aren't toll roads, right? A setup like this on a toll road would require a person to pay an exit toll and an entrance toll.
Quote from: Mr. Matté on September 07, 2012, 05:30:41 PM
Quote from: Beeper1 on September 07, 2012, 05:01:08 PM
As for weird servic area positioning, how about the official serivce areas that are actually located off the highway on a connecting road, requiring you to enter/exit at a regular interchange. I can think of two exampes: the new West Gardiner service area on the Maine Turnpike, and the Barnstable service area on US-6 on Cape Cod. Any others out there like this?
The eastern Pennsylvania Welcome Center off I-80 in Del. Water Gap (https://maps.google.com/?ll=40.990779,-75.141935&spn=0.003207,0.006968&t=h&z=18). On the subject of that place, it looks like the EB I-80 rest area by Camelback (just after 380) is now closed based on the new Google imagery of the area. Is this a permanent closure?
A few welcome centers seem to require exiting; the I-84 one entering PA does as well. Northbound access to the I-81 NY welcome center in the 1000 Islands has to exit at exit 50S (NY 12 south) and then turn onto a local road even!
Was Illinois the only state ever to have service areas above the highways or did some other state's used to have them as well?
I remember back as a youngster in 69, as I was only 4 years old on the way from New Jersey to California and on the return back we stopped at some service areas like the oasis in Chicagoland. However, unlike the tollways of Illinois, that have the building supported on typical highway bridge girders and normal highway piers in the median, I do remember one a brown building that had no center piers and spanned across the highway and its girders underneath matched the building it supported. Then I remember some that were blue and were in existence and another specific one that was a fancy building with a curved roof that required escalators to get you from the parking lot up to the level above the roadway? I cannot find any information regarding where these would be.
I am guessing that maybe Texas or Oklahoma toll roads once had them although I did find this in my research for I-44 and this I believe answers the one with the curved roof http://www.flickr.com/photos/hollywoodplace/3060273922/, or it was the Illinois Tollways. If it was the latter, than when I went there in 87 and saw them not remembering them like I did as a kid, it must of been rebuilt throughout the many years from 1969 to 1987.
There's a rest area over the highway on the Will Rogers Turnpike (I-44) near Vinita, OK. It is in the shape of an arch, and is supposedly the "World's Largest McDonald's" even though that's probably not true.
Quote from: bugo on September 09, 2012, 05:30:31 PM
There's a rest area over the highway on the Will Rogers Turnpike (I-44) near Vinita, OK. It is in the shape of an arch, and is supposedly the "World's Largest McDonald's" even though that's probably not true.
Is this it? https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Vinita,+OK&hl=en&ll=36.622589,-95.14909&spn=0.00806,0.020792&sll=27.698638,-83.804601&sspn=9.097496,21.291504&oq=vinita&t=h&hnear=Vinita,+Craig,+Oklahoma&z=16&layer=c&cbll=36.62267,-95.148913&panoid=sZzZRwjeKzLQHdU6hpy8Lg&cbp=12,86.21,,0,0
Quote from: roadman65 on September 09, 2012, 05:34:09 PM
Quote from: bugo on September 09, 2012, 05:30:31 PM
There's a rest area over the highway on the Will Rogers Turnpike (I-44) near Vinita, OK. It is in the shape of an arch, and is supposedly the "World's Largest McDonald's" even though that's probably not true.
Is this it? https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Vinita,+OK&hl=en&ll=36.622589,-95.14909&spn=0.00806,0.020792&sll=27.698638,-83.804601&sspn=9.097496,21.291504&oq=vinita&t=h&hnear=Vinita,+Craig,+Oklahoma&z=16&layer=c&cbll=36.62267,-95.148913&panoid=sZzZRwjeKzLQHdU6hpy8Lg&cbp=12,86.21,,0,0
Yep! It used to be called The Glass House but McDonald's eventually moved in. I've been in it, and most of the interior space is unused.
Funny how I can remember it as a four year old. I even remember how disappointed I was when we could not drive beneath it as both driveways leading to the facility and leaving it are before and after it! Now as an adult I would love to be in it more than drive under it.
I am curious, though, where I saw the brown and blue buildings that were rest areas over the highways?
My nominee for weirdest toll road service plaza is the one in the middle of the Chicago Skyway Toll Bridge: http://goo.gl/maps/8Rjsi (http://goo.gl/maps/8Rjsi). Quibble if you wish that the lack of fueling options disqualifies it, but it's one
weird McDonald's stuck in the middle of the Skyway. No concern about U-turns here--they are practically encouraged. Hoosiers can actually dine and return home without a toll, since Mickey D's is on the Indiana side of the toll plaza. The ambiance is lacking, even by McD's standards, though.
This reminds me of my favorite toll road U-turn story. I swear it's true, because it happened to me. A few years ago, my wife, Marti, and I are returning to Indiana on the Ohio Turnpike after seeing my beloved Cleveland Indians lose again. We stop for a bite at the Erie Islands service plaza, and then continue west. After passing Toledo, I asked Marti to check the toll I'd need to pay at the border. She claimed I had the ticket and I was sure she had it. A frantic search ensues, to no avail. We conclude that the only way the ticket could have escaped was at the service plaza, now an hour behind us.
We have a "difference of opinion" about what to do next. I argue with impeccible logic that we should just declare the ticket lost at Westgate and pay the maximum toll:
- The cost of extra fuel and wear-and-tear on the car exceeds the extra toll.
- We'll have to do two illegal U-turns. If we get caught, the fine will far exceed the extra toll.
- The emergency U-turn spots are inherently unsafe for non-emergency vehicles.
- It's 2 hours of our life we'll never get back.
- We'll never find the card at the service plaza. We may have thrown it out with the trash or dropped it anywhere in the plaza.
I knew I'd never win this without making the U-turns and going back to the service plaza. It would be worth it to be right. My wife was equally convinced it would be worth it for
her to be right. So we went back.
All along the way, I kept repeating all the arguments. I later regretted that I emphasized argument no. 5. I was
so sure we'd not find the card.
Two hours later, we return to Erie Islands. I pull into the lot, repeating again, "We'll never find that ticket." I open the door, look down, and see a ticket on the ground next to the car. I pick it up, confirm it's mine, and hand it to Marti. I wish I could say that there were no I-told-you-sos. I wish I had never insisted that we wouldn't find the ticket. It now seemed so weak when I claimed that other 4 points were valid, and that I really
won the argument. :banghead:
I like the way the two service areas on I-476 in PA are on one side of the roadway. If you exit from the NB side at the Plaza near I-78, then you encounter a "reverse carrigeway situation" where you drive on the left side of the center divider to cross the highway. There is only one overpass over I-476 to carry motorists across to the area. A situation similar to the SB Exit 105 ramps on the Garden State Parkway in Tinton Falls has, NJ where you cross on the same overpass over some of the NB lanes where you are driving like you would in the U.K. because of the positioning of the ramps there. Here it is so there is no at grade type of situation before entering the plaza to create an easy in and a similar easy out.
Quote from: roadman65 on October 14, 2012, 01:10:34 PM
I like the way the two service areas on I-476 in PA are on one side of the roadway. If you exit from the NB side at the Plaza near I-78, then you encounter a "reverse carrigeway situation" where you drive on the left side of the center divider to cross the highway. There is only one overpass over I-476 to carry motorists across to the area. A situation similar to the SB Exit 105 ramps on the Garden State Parkway in Tinton Falls has, NJ where you cross on the same overpass over some of the NB lanes where you are driving like you would in the U.K. because of the positioning of the ramps there. Here it is so there is no at grade type of situation before entering the plaza to create an easy in and a similar easy out.
The Sideling Hill service plaza (Google Maps here (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Pennsylvania+Turnpike+sideling+hill+service+plaza,+Waterfall,+PA&hl=en&ll=40.058596,-78.081937&spn=0.018821,0.024633&sll=40.059122,-78.080864&sspn=0.018821,0.024633&t=h&hq=Pennsylvania+Turnpike+sideling+hill+service+plaza,+Waterfall,+PA&radius=15000&z=15)) on the E-W Mainline (I-76) part of the Turnpike has a similar arrangement - it's on the westbound (north) side of the Pike, but there are flyover ramps so eastbound traffic can stop there as well (though the parking lots and fuel islands were designed so that it is not possible to make a legal "U" turn).
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 14, 2012, 01:27:20 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 14, 2012, 01:10:34 PM
I like the way the two service areas on I-476 in PA are on one side of the roadway. If you exit from the NB side at the Plaza near I-78, then you encounter a "reverse carrigeway situation" where you drive on the left side of the center divider to cross the highway. There is only one overpass over I-476 to carry motorists across to the area. A situation similar to the SB Exit 105 ramps on the Garden State Parkway in Tinton Falls has, NJ where you cross on the same overpass over some of the NB lanes where you are driving like you would in the U.K. because of the positioning of the ramps there. Here it is so there is no at grade type of situation before entering the plaza to create an easy in and a similar easy out.
The Sideling Hill service plaza (Google Maps here (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Pennsylvania+Turnpike+sideling+hill+service+plaza,+Waterfall,+PA&hl=en&ll=40.058596,-78.081937&spn=0.018821,0.024633&sll=40.059122,-78.080864&sspn=0.018821,0.024633&t=h&hq=Pennsylvania+Turnpike+sideling+hill+service+plaza,+Waterfall,+PA&radius=15000&z=15)) on the E-W Mainline (I-76) part of the Turnpike has a similar arrangement - it's on the westbound (north) side of the Pike, but there are flyover ramps so eastbound traffic can stop there as well (though the parking lots and fuel islands were designed so that it is not possible to make a legal "U" turn).
Yet you can from SB I-476 to NB I-476 via EB I-276 make a legal u turn there.
Quote from: roadman65 on October 14, 2012, 02:02:20 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 14, 2012, 01:27:20 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 14, 2012, 01:10:34 PM
I like the way the two service areas on I-476 in PA are on one side of the roadway. If you exit from the NB side at the Plaza near I-78, then you encounter a "reverse carrigeway situation" where you drive on the left side of the center divider to cross the highway. There is only one overpass over I-476 to carry motorists across to the area. A situation similar to the SB Exit 105 ramps on the Garden State Parkway in Tinton Falls has, NJ where you cross on the same overpass over some of the NB lanes where you are driving like you would in the U.K. because of the positioning of the ramps there. Here it is so there is no at grade type of situation before entering the plaza to create an easy in and a similar easy out.
The Sideling Hill service plaza (Google Maps here (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Pennsylvania+Turnpike+sideling+hill+service+plaza,+Waterfall,+PA&hl=en&ll=40.058596,-78.081937&spn=0.018821,0.024633&sll=40.059122,-78.080864&sspn=0.018821,0.024633&t=h&hq=Pennsylvania+Turnpike+sideling+hill+service+plaza,+Waterfall,+PA&radius=15000&z=15)) on the E-W Mainline (I-76) part of the Turnpike has a similar arrangement - it's on the westbound (north) side of the Pike, but there are flyover ramps so eastbound traffic can stop there as well (though the parking lots and fuel islands were designed so that it is not possible to make a legal "U" turn).
Yet you can from SB I-476 to NB I-476 via EB I-276 make a legal u turn there.
In the North East Extension (I-476) both the Leigh Valley and Hickory Run Service Area share the Same design as the Slideling Hill Service area and does serve both I-476 North and South