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National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:56:56 AM

Title: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:56:56 AM
Pennslyvania is pretty bad with its obscure towns on I-80. For best, I like Arizona's control cities (although Yuma could be used).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 11:10:46 AM
I generally like states that post large cities (and out of state locations if needed) instead of every small town on the way, so for that, I think Ohio's control cities are pretty good, at least on the interstates. The state also doesn't really use secondary control cities as much as I've seen in other states on the 2di; they stick to the primaries. Here's my opinion on Ohio's control cities, and what I think could be changed, on 2di interstates and non-interstate expressways/freeways in the state from the Fixing Control Cities thread:
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 29, 2021, 10:52:13 PM
Ohio's 2di control cities are generally pretty good, and what you would expect.
I-70: Indianapolis, Dayton, Columbus, Wheeling (No changes)
I-71: Louisville, Cincinnati, Columbus, Cleveland (No changes)
I-74: Indianapolis, Cincinnati (No Changes)
I-75: Lexington, Cincinnati, Dayton, Toledo, Detroit (No changes)
I-76: Lodi, Akron, Youngstown, Pittsburgh
- I would change Lodi west of Akron to Columbus. Even though I-76 doesn't physically go to Columbus, most of the traffic on I-76 west of Akron are going to turn onto I-71 south, which heads to Columbus.

I-77: Marietta, Canton, Akron, Cleveland
- Marietta could be changed to Parkersburg, as the latter city is larger and only 10 miles south of Marietta.
- Between Marietta and Canton, I've only seen Marietta and Cleveland used as controls, notably at the I-70 interchange. I think Canton could be used NB until you get to Canton, then Akron, then Cleveland. The SB control cities are like this in the reverse order.

I-80: Chicago, Toledo, Cleveland, Youngstown, NYC (No changes)
- I've seen people complain about NYC as a control in Ohio, but what other notable large city is in PA and NJ between Youngstown and NYC on I-80? State College? nah

I-90: Chicago, Toledo, Cleveland, Erie (No changes)
- Minor nitpick, Erie could be printed as either 'Erie PA' or just 'Erie', instead of 'Erie Pa' that's currently in use.

I'm fine with the new signage that lack control cities on I-270 and I-275, as I find control cities on beltways somewhat confusing. Control routes could be used on I-270 however, like what I-275 does, if people want some sense of direction.

Will add US and State route freeways here later.

Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 10:14:58 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 29, 2021, 10:52:13 PM
Will add US and State route freeways here later.
Currently, it seems like that Ohio likes to use every county seat as controls on US route and State route freeways. Every county seat is good for 2 lane roads, but for expressways and freeways, I think they should be treated to just a level below the standards as 2di interstates. Here's my opinions on more spaced out control cities that are more useful for long-distance drivers

OH 161/16: Columbus, Newark, Coshocton
- First of all, remove Columbus as a WB control city on the OH 16 split from the freeway and give it to the freeway continuation. No one is going to use the 2 lane OH 16 over the freeway to Columbus from Granville; it's not even one of the route options on Google Maps.
- With Columbus used on the freeway, New Albany could be removed or signed as a secondary.
- East of Newark, the only real option is Coshocton.
- This ties into my fictional idea to swap 161 and 16 west of Granville, to keep a single route number and exit number sequence on the whole freeway section. Because 161's western terminus is west of 16's, currently, the mileposts and exit numbers drop down from where 161 ends and 16 continues the freeway, causing some duplicated exit numbers on the freeway. Two of the digits are the same, so white-out should be adequate for turning 161 signage to 16  :-D

US 23/OH 15: Portsmouth, Chillicothe, Columbus, (Delaware), (Marion), (Findlay), Toledo
- For the section south of I-270, Bye Circleville, Bye Piketon
- I placed Delaware in parenthesis as I think it's better than Toledo for NB 23 at the I-270 interchange. It's a busy 4 lane arterial between Columbus and Delaware, and traffic to Toledo also have the option to use I-71 then switch to US 36 and US 23 at Delaware. For SB, Delaware isn't necessary.
- Marion could be used too for its size, and home to an Ohio State regional campus, but it's close to Delaware, and not on any major junctions.
- Findlay could be added in for NB, as it's where OH 15 meets I-75 and is a sizable city. I chose to not include it though.

US 24: Ft Wayne, Toledo
- For a US route that's really important for long distance travel (part of the shortcut for I-69 between Ft Wayne and Pt Huron), it really shouldn't have any in-state control cities west of Toledo. So goodbye Defiance and Napoleon.

US 30: Ft Wayne, Lima, Mansfield, Canton
- Ft Wayne, Mansfield and Canton are no-brainers
- Lima isn't on US 30, but it's the only sizable city between Ft Wayne and Mansfield and is close to the junction with I-75, so I chose it.
- East of Canton, it's no longer a freeway or expressway

OH 32: Cincinnati, Athens, Parkersburg
The almost 200 mile distance between Cincinnati and Athens may be a bit long, but there's not really any good options between them on OH 32. If Corridor D used US 50 instead of OH 32, Chillicothe would be perfect. But that's not the case. Also, Cincinnati is signed WB as a control city in Athens.

US 33: Columbus, Athens
- I have no idea what to do with the freeway portion northwest of Columbus, as it ends in Bellefontaine, but Marysville is a larger city. Could keep both, but it would be inconsistent to the rest of what I want to do here. Fort Wayne is another option, but it's a bit far as it's mostly 2 lane to there.
- Between Columbus and Athens, those two cities should be the primary controls. So bye Lancaster and Logan.
- Southeast of Athens, it's a 2 lane

US 35: Dayton, Chillicothe, Charleston
- Dayton is obvious
- Chillicothe is where US 35 meets US 23, and a people on US 35 WB heading to cities like Columbus or Detroit would turn north onto US 23 here.
- US 35 doesn't physically reach Charleston, but it's close enough and is the next point for long distance traffic, as there isn't any other major point in the middle.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 11:15:20 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 11:10:46 AM
I generally like states that post large cities (and out of state locations if needed) instead of every small town on the way, so for that, I think Ohio's control cities are pretty good, at least on the interstates. The state also doesn't really use secondary control cities as much as I've seen in other states on the 2di; they stick to the primaries. Here's my opinion on Ohio's control cities, and what I think could be changed, on 2di interstates and non-interstate expressways/freeways in the state from the Fixing Control Cities thread:
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 29, 2021, 10:52:13 PM
Ohio's 2di control cities are generally pretty good, and what you would expect.
I-70: Indianapolis, Dayton, Columbus, Wheeling (No changes)
I-71: Louisville, Cincinnati, Columbus, Cleveland (No changes)
I-74: Indianapolis, Cincinnati (No Changes)
I-75: Lexington, Cincinnati, Dayton, Toledo, Detroit (No changes)
I-76: Lodi, Akron, Youngstown, Pittsburgh
- I would change Lodi west of Akron to Columbus. Even though I-76 doesn't physically go to Columbus, most of the traffic on I-76 west of Akron are going to turn onto I-71 south, which heads to Columbus.

I-77: Marietta, Canton, Akron, Cleveland
- Marietta could be changed to Parkersburg, as the latter city is larger and only 10 miles south of Marietta.
- Between Marietta and Canton, I've only seen Marietta and Cleveland used as controls, notably at the I-70 interchange. I think Canton could be used NB until you get to Canton, then Akron, then Cleveland. The SB control cities are like this in the reverse order.

I-80: Chicago, Toledo, Cleveland, Youngstown, NYC (No changes)
- I've seen people complain about NYC as a control in Ohio, but what other notable large city is in PA and NJ between Youngstown and NYC on I-80? State College? nah

I-90: Chicago, Toledo, Cleveland, Erie (No changes)
- Minor nitpick, Erie could be printed as either 'Erie PA' or just 'Erie', instead of 'Erie Pa' that's currently in use.

I'm fine with the new signage that lack control cities on I-270 and I-275, as I find control cities on beltways somewhat confusing. Control routes could be used on I-270 however, like what I-275 does, if people want some sense of direction.

Will add US and State route freeways here later.

Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 10:14:58 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 29, 2021, 10:52:13 PM
Will add US and State route freeways here later.
Currently, it seems like that Ohio likes to use every county seat as controls on US route and State route freeways. Every county seat is good for 2 lane roads, but for expressways and freeways, I think they should be treated to just a level below the standards as 2di interstates. Here's my opinions on more spaced out control cities that are more useful for long-distance drivers

OH 161/16: Columbus, Newark, Coshocton
- First of all, remove Columbus as a WB control city on the OH 16 split from the freeway and give it to the freeway continuation. No one is going to use the 2 lane OH 16 over the freeway to Columbus from Granville; it's not even one of the route options on Google Maps.
- With Columbus used on the freeway, New Albany could be removed or signed as a secondary.
- East of Newark, the only real option is Coshocton.
- This ties into my fictional idea to swap 161 and 16 west of Granville, to keep a single route number and exit number sequence on the whole freeway section. Because 161's western terminus is west of 16's, currently, the mileposts and exit numbers drop down from where 161 ends and 16 continues the freeway, causing some duplicated exit numbers on the freeway. Two of the digits are the same, so white-out should be adequate for turning 161 signage to 16  :-D

US 23/OH 15: Portsmouth, Chillicothe, Columbus, (Delaware), (Marion), (Findlay), Toledo
- For the section south of I-270, Bye Circleville, Bye Piketon
- I placed Delaware in parenthesis as I think it's better than Toledo for NB 23 at the I-270 interchange. It's a busy 4 lane arterial between Columbus and Delaware, and traffic to Toledo also have the option to use I-71 then switch to US 36 and US 23 at Delaware. For SB, Delaware isn't necessary.
- Marion could be used too for its size, and home to an Ohio State regional campus, but it's close to Delaware, and not on any major junctions.
- Findlay could be added in for NB, as it's where OH 15 meets I-75 and is a sizable city. I chose to not include it though.

US 30: Ft Wayne, Lima, Mansfield, Canton
- Ft Wayne, Mansfield and Canton are no-brainers
- Lima isn't on US 30, but it's the only sizable city between Ft Wayne and Mansfield and is close to the junction with I-75, so I chose it.
- East of Canton, it's no longer a freeway or expressway

OH 32: Cincinnati, Athens, Parkersburg
The almost 200 mile distance between Cincinnati and Athens may be a bit long, but there's not really any good options between them on OH 32. If Corridor D used US 50 instead of OH 32, Chillicothe would be perfect. But that's not the case. Also, Cincinnati is signed WB as a control city in Athens.

US 33: Columbus, Athens
- I have no idea what to do with the freeway portion northwest of Columbus, as it ends in Bellefontaine, but Marysville is a larger city. Could keep both, but it would be inconsistent to the rest of what I want to do here. Fort Wayne is another option, but it's a bit far as it's mostly 2 lane to there.
- Between Columbus and Athens, those two cities should be the primary controls. So bye Lancaster and Logan.
- Southeast of Athens, it's a 2 lane

US 35: Dayton, Chillicothe, Charleston
- Dayton is obvious
- Chillicothe is where US 35 meets US 23, and a people on US 35 WB heading to cities like Columbus or Detroit would turn north onto US 23 here.
- US 35 doesn't physically reach Charleston, but it's close enough and is the next point for long distance traffic, as there isn't any other major point in the middle.
I also prefer large cities, and I don't like states that refuse to post out of state cities, like California.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: thspfc on April 13, 2021, 11:16:49 AM
Best: Michigan, Wisconsin, Florida, Kentucky, Ohio, Tennessee, Missouri
Worst: Pennsylvania, Minnesota, California

I choose to believe that Pennsylvania's control cities are satirical.

It should be noted that control cities are easier for some states than others, because some states don't have many large cities.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 11:18:50 AM
Quote from: thspfc on April 13, 2021, 11:16:49 AM
Best: Michigan, Wisconsin, Florida, Kentucky, Ohio, Tennessee, Missouri
Worst: Pennsylvania, Minnesota, California

I choose to believe that Pennsylvania's control cities are satirical.

It should be noted that control cities are easier for some states than others, because some states don't have many large cities.
If a state doesn't have large in-state cities, post out-of-state cities.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: thspfc on April 13, 2021, 11:22:25 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 11:18:50 AM
Quote from: thspfc on April 13, 2021, 11:16:49 AM
Best: Michigan, Wisconsin, Florida, Kentucky, Ohio, Tennessee, Missouri
Worst: Pennsylvania, Minnesota, California

I choose to believe that Pennsylvania's control cities are satirical.

It should be noted that control cities are easier for some states than others, because some states don't have many large cities.
If a state doesn't have large in-state cities, post out-of-state cities.
I agree, but sometimes that's not possible either. There are a million different scenarios with control cities. Like I've said before, control cities are a very dynamic concept, and trying to use one-size-fits-all rules is a bad idea.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on April 13, 2021, 11:44:26 AM
Louisiana is one that uses local than next big city except in Shreveport where they do favor Dallas over the more small ones in between unlike the rest of the state.

NC is bad with many interchanges on the same freeway using different places. One notable  place is Asheville using Hickory on I-26 and I-240 (west end), Statesville on I-240 (East end), and Black Mountain from the Tunnel Road Connector all for the same I-40 EB ramps. Then Greensboro was also used on a mileage sign east of I-26.

I-95 using various places too in NC along the stretch from Eastover to Kenly.

Illinois has the best using next major city at interstate junctions and next regional city at local freeway ramp entrances.  Chicagoland is the exception using state names though and Rockford over Madison for I-90 west from I-94.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: paulthemapguy on April 13, 2021, 12:09:58 PM
I'm seconding the nomination for Pennsylvania as the worst.  Nobody is on I-80 to get to Bloomsburg, PennDOT.  Shut your face.

IL is great except for the 3DI's in the Chicago area.  No one is using I-355 to get to Rockford, or to get to "the northwest suburbs".  I really wish they would call out certain suburbs instead of that dumb general "suburbs" crap they do with I-355.  "Suburbs" should NEVER be a control city.  I remember driving around the Seattle area, where they call out specific suburbs on the freeway signage, wishing Chicago's 3DI's would get the same treatment.

Maybe Delaware would be the best because it has relatively few Interstate signs to complain about.  Alaska?
The states with the best control cities are the ones who admit that Interstates are INTER-STATE...and the control city people on a highway are most interested in will often be across a state border, or even two state borders.  Ohio will even call out New York City on I-80, which I like (whereas Pennsylvania WON'T  :banghead:).

Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on April 13, 2021, 02:06:52 PM
Minnesota does this dumb shit where they post a podunk town on the intersecting road at an interchange that is different from the on-freeway control city. Like if you're turning onto northbound I-35E between 694 and the 35W merge, the posted control city at these interchanges is...Forest Lake. Why? Not only is that not a destination city, it's only a few miles away from where you are. Just put Duluth on the damn sign. Similar crap exists with Faribault on I-35 in the south metro and the slew of dumb towns used on I-90 like Jackson, Worthington, and Luverne. Hell, Albert Lea doesn't really make sense anymore because of the upgrades to US 52 and US 169/MN 60, Put Des Moines.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on April 13, 2021, 02:20:06 PM
Oklahoma, if anything, uses too few control cities. The only in-state Interstate control cities are Oklahoma City, Lawton, and Tulsa. Everything else is out-of-state (Wichita, Dallas, Amarillo, Ft Smith, Joplin). A case could be made for some of the larger regional centers getting bumped up to control city status (like Ardmore, Chickasha, one of Elk City/Clinton/Weatherford, and Henryetta).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 02:49:17 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2021, 02:20:06 PM
Oklahoma, if anything, uses too few control cities. The only in-state Interstate control cities are Oklahoma City, Lawton, and Tulsa. Everything else is out-of-state (Wichita, Dallas, Amarillo, Ft Smith, Joplin). A case could be made for some of the larger regional centers getting bumped up to control city status (like Ardmore, Chickasha, one of Elk City/Clinton/Weatherford, and Henryetta).
Maybe Ardmore, the others are too small.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hbelkins on April 13, 2021, 02:56:06 PM
Kentucky's are generally good, although I'm not crazy about Fulton being used on I-69.

West Virginia's are iffy. I can understand using Huntington, Charleston, Beckley, Clarksburg, Parkersburg, and Morgantown. But Lewisburg on I-64 east of Beckley is ridiculous. Lexington, Va., would be a better choice. And instead of Bluefield south of Beckley, I'd use Wytheville, Va., since it's a major interstate intersection. On I-77 north of Parkersburg, I'd use Cambridge, Ohio (major intersection) or even one of the bigger Ohio cities like Akron or Cleveland instead of Marietta. Washington, Pa., is a good choice since it's also a major intersection.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on April 13, 2021, 03:04:42 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 02:49:17 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2021, 02:20:06 PM
Oklahoma, if anything, uses too few control cities. The only in-state Interstate control cities are Oklahoma City, Lawton, and Tulsa. Everything else is out-of-state (Wichita, Dallas, Amarillo, Ft Smith, Joplin). A case could be made for some of the larger regional centers getting bumped up to control city status (like Ardmore, Chickasha, one of Elk City/Clinton/Weatherford, and Henryetta).
Maybe Ardmore, the others are too small.

Weatherford and Chickasha both have state universities (Southwestern Oklahoma State and Univ of Science and Arts of Oklahoma respectively), which means they're possible destinations. Henryetta is where you leave I-40 to transition to US-75 toward Tulsa or to the Indian Nation Turnpike toward McAlester.

Elk City and Clinton are both traveler-oasis type towns that are good stopping points between OKC and Amarillo, but they're close enough to Weatherford that signing all three would be kind of pointless. Clinton and Weatherford are close enough together that you could maybe sign them "Clinton-Weatherford" (a la "Urbana-Champaign", "Bloomington-Normal", or "La Salle-Peru"); between the two of them that's 20,000 population.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 03:16:46 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2021, 03:04:42 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 02:49:17 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2021, 02:20:06 PM
Oklahoma, if anything, uses too few control cities. The only in-state Interstate control cities are Oklahoma City, Lawton, and Tulsa. Everything else is out-of-state (Wichita, Dallas, Amarillo, Ft Smith, Joplin). A case could be made for some of the larger regional centers getting bumped up to control city status (like Ardmore, Chickasha, one of Elk City/Clinton/Weatherford, and Henryetta).
Maybe Ardmore, the others are too small.

Weatherford and Chickasha both have state universities (Southwestern Oklahoma State and Univ of Science and Arts of Oklahoma respectively), which means they're possible destinations. Henryetta is where you leave I-40 to transition to US-75 toward Tulsa or to the Indian Nation Turnpike toward McAlester.

Elk City and Clinton are both traveler-oasis type towns that are good stopping points between OKC and Amarillo, but they're close enough to Weatherford that signing all three would be kind of pointless. Clinton and Weatherford are close enough together that you could maybe sign them "Clinton-Weatherford" (a la "Urbana-Champaign", "Bloomington-Normal", or "La Salle-Peru"); between the two of them that's 20,000 population.
Maybe as secondary control cities.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on April 13, 2021, 03:34:58 PM
South Dakota was the worst as at its only two digit interstate junction had no control cities until recently.   That is for long distance travel.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on April 13, 2021, 03:44:37 PM
I would put Indiana in the middle level. They have some good control cities, but it could be better.

For example, the Indiana Toll Road says "Chicago" and "Ohio" on every interchange sign. They could sign it as "South Bend ---> Toledo" heading eastbound and "South Bend ---> Chicago" heading westbound.

Here are some other highways that I would change the control cities to...
Interstate 65: NB- Indianapolis, Lafayette, Chicago  SB- Lafayette, Indianapolis, Louisville
Interstate 69: NB- Bloomington, Indianapolis, Fort Wayne, Lansing  SB- Fort Wayne, Indianapolis, Bloomington, Evansville
Interstate 70: EB- Indianapolis, Richmond, Dayton  WB- Indianapolis, Terre Haute, Effingham
Interstate 74: WB- Champaign
US 31 north of Indy: NB- Kokomo, South Bend, Benton Harbor  SB- Plymouth, Kokomo, Indianapolis
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on April 13, 2021, 03:59:11 PM
I'd nominate Nevada for one of the best. 

I-15: Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City
I-80: Sacramento, Reno, Elko, Salt Lake City

I-11 won't always be Boulder City but it makes sense for now since it doesn't cross the border.

Chris
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on April 13, 2021, 04:05:37 PM
For NJ I would use Allentown instead of Easton as I-78 don’t directly serve it and thus Allentown much bigger size. I would use it west of Newark and both Newark and New York EB.

I-80 I would sign Paterson to the GS Parkway and Stroudsburg, PA west of the Parkway. EB, Paterson and New York.

For I-280 west of the Oranges that has no control cities to use Parsippany- Troy Hills. EB is fine with The Oranges and Newark with Newark and Harrison in East Orange and Harrison in Newark.

I-295 should use Trenton and SB Camden to NJ 38 and Wilmington from NJ 73 southward.

I-195 is fine but remove the TO NJ 29 and TO NJ 138.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: thspfc on April 13, 2021, 04:13:54 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 13, 2021, 02:06:52 PM
Minnesota does this dumb shit where they post a podunk town on the intersecting road at an interchange that is different from the on-freeway control city. Like if you're turning onto northbound I-35E between 694 and the 35W merge, the posted control city at these interchanges is...Forest Lake. Why? Not only is that not a destination city, it's only a few miles away from where you are. Just put Duluth on the damn sign. Similar crap exists with Faribault on I-35 in the south metro and the slew of dumb towns used on I-90 like Jackson, Worthington, and Luverne. Hell, Albert Lea doesn't really make sense anymore because of the upgrades to US 52 and US 169/MN 60, Put Des Moines.
If anything, the main thing that I've noticed about MN is that a lot of their BGSes, even ones at major interchanges, don't have control cities at all.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Rothman on April 13, 2021, 04:17:39 PM
There are only two control cities:

Albany and Buffalo. :D
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 06:36:41 PM
I like Michigan's. I-69 they use Port Huron, Flint, Lansing and Fort Wayne.

I-75 they use Detroit, Toledo, Flint, Saginaw, Mackinac Bridge and Sault Ste Marie.

I-94 is Detroit, Chicago and Port Huron. Although at secondary interchanges Michigan cities are used.

I-96 uses Detroit, Lansing, Grand Rapids and Muskegon.

I don't get the use of Buena Vista for M-46 at the I-75 interchange though. You're already in Buena Vista and Saginaw is right next to it and is a much larger town. Buena Vista is a Township which is a suburb of Saginaw.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on April 13, 2021, 06:51:09 PM
Quote from: thspfc on April 13, 2021, 04:13:54 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 13, 2021, 02:06:52 PM
Minnesota does this dumb shit where they post a podunk town on the intersecting road at an interchange that is different from the on-freeway control city. Like if you're turning onto northbound I-35E between 694 and the 35W merge, the posted control city at these interchanges is...Forest Lake. Why? Not only is that not a destination city, it's only a few miles away from where you are. Just put Duluth on the damn sign. Similar crap exists with Faribault on I-35 in the south metro and the slew of dumb towns used on I-90 like Jackson, Worthington, and Luverne. Hell, Albert Lea doesn't really make sense anymore because of the upgrades to US 52 and US 169/MN 60, Put Des Moines.
If anything, the main thing that I've noticed about MN is that a lot of their BGSes, even ones at major interchanges, don't have control cities at all.

This is a major failing in the metro, for sure. The most baffling one is eastbound 94 at 494/694 in Maple Grove, the first major decision for traffic entering the metro. I hope with the ongoing rebuild/widen that the new signs in that area will have controls.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 07:03:02 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 06:36:41 PM
I like Michigan's. I-69 they use Port Huron, Flint, Lansing and Fort Wayne.

I-75 they use Detroit, Toledo, Flint, Saginaw, Mackinac Bridge and Sault Ste Marie.

I-94 is Detroit, Chicago and Port Huron. Although at secondary interchanges Michigan cities are used.

I-96 uses Detroit, Lansing, Grand Rapids and Muskegon.

I don't get the use of Buena Vista for M-46 at the I-75 interchange though. You're already in Buena Vista and Saginaw is right next to it and is a much larger town. Buena Vista is a Township which is a suburb of Saginaw.
Michigan also does control cities on non-interstate freeways better than Ohio does. See my rant above for Ohio's choices, like every county seat on US 35, a major trucking route between the Midwest and Carolinas. I took a look at US 23, and mostly see Toledo, Ann Arbor, Flint used. If you had ODOT sign control cities on that segment, it would go something like Toledo, Dundee or Milan, Ann Arbor, Brighton, Fenton, Flint.

Forgot to include this in my post above, here's my thought on US 24's control cities in OH:
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 01, 2021, 09:48:02 PM
I forgot a US route freeway in Ohio:

US 24: Ft Wayne, Toledo
For a US route that's really important for long distance travel (part of the shortcut for I-69 between Ft Wayne and Pt Huron), it really shouldn't have any in-state control cities west of Toledo. So goodbye Defiance and Napoleon.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 07:17:56 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 07:03:02 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 06:36:41 PM
I like Michigan's. I-69 they use Port Huron, Flint, Lansing and Fort Wayne.

I-75 they use Detroit, Toledo, Flint, Saginaw, Mackinac Bridge and Sault Ste Marie.

I-94 is Detroit, Chicago and Port Huron. Although at secondary interchanges Michigan cities are used.

I-96 uses Detroit, Lansing, Grand Rapids and Muskegon.

I don't get the use of Buena Vista for M-46 at the I-75 interchange though. You're already in Buena Vista and Saginaw is right next to it and is a much larger town. Buena Vista is a Township which is a suburb of Saginaw.
Michigan also does control cities on non-interstate freeways better than Ohio does. See my rant above for Ohio's choices, like every county seat on US 35, a major trucking route between the Midwest and Carolinas. I took a look at US 23, and mostly see Toledo, Ann Arbor, Flint used. If you had ODOT sign control cities on that segment, it would go something like Toledo, Dundee or Milan, Ann Arbor, Brighton, Fenton, Flint.

Forgot to include this in my post above, here's my thought on US 24's control cities in OH:
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 01, 2021, 09:48:02 PM
I forgot a US route freeway in Ohio:

US 24: Ft Wayne, Toledo
For a US route that's really important for long distance travel (part of the shortcut for I-69 between Ft Wayne and Pt Huron), it really shouldn't have any in-state control cities west of Toledo. So goodbye Defiance and Napoleon.
That is all 23 uses on its solo freeway stretch between Flint and Toledo but Brighton might make some sense although it's kind of close to Ann Arbor it's where I-96 crosses it so it's a major point on the highway. For US-35 going east of Dayton I would just use Chillicothe it's more in the middle of the state and using Xenia and Washington courthouse and stuff like that just don't make any sense.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 08:03:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 07:17:56 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 07:03:02 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 06:36:41 PM
I like Michigan's. I-69 they use Port Huron, Flint, Lansing and Fort Wayne.

I-75 they use Detroit, Toledo, Flint, Saginaw, Mackinac Bridge and Sault Ste Marie.

I-94 is Detroit, Chicago and Port Huron. Although at secondary interchanges Michigan cities are used.

I-96 uses Detroit, Lansing, Grand Rapids and Muskegon.

I don't get the use of Buena Vista for M-46 at the I-75 interchange though. You're already in Buena Vista and Saginaw is right next to it and is a much larger town. Buena Vista is a Township which is a suburb of Saginaw.
Michigan also does control cities on non-interstate freeways better than Ohio does. See my rant above for Ohio's choices, like every county seat on US 35, a major trucking route between the Midwest and Carolinas. I took a look at US 23, and mostly see Toledo, Ann Arbor, Flint used. If you had ODOT sign control cities on that segment, it would go something like Toledo, Dundee or Milan, Ann Arbor, Brighton, Fenton, Flint.

Forgot to include this in my post above, here's my thought on US 24's control cities in OH:
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 01, 2021, 09:48:02 PM
I forgot a US route freeway in Ohio:

US 24: Ft Wayne, Toledo
For a US route that's really important for long distance travel (part of the shortcut for I-69 between Ft Wayne and Pt Huron), it really shouldn't have any in-state control cities west of Toledo. So goodbye Defiance and Napoleon.
That is all 23 uses on its solo freeway stretch between Flint and Toledo but Brighton might make some sense although it's kind of close to Ann Arbor it's where I-96 crosses it so it's a major point on the highway. For US-35 going east of Dayton I would just use Chillicothe it's more in the middle of the state and using Xenia and Washington courthouse and stuff like that just don't make any sense.
East of Chillicothe, Jackson and Gallipolis can be removed too. That will leave the EB direction with Charleston, which is where most vehicles would presumably turn south onto the WV turnpike towards VA and NC.

If someone is going to rank all the states for control cities, for the 'good' category that was posted above, I think Michigan would go above Ohio, which would go above Missouri.
My issue with Missouri is that they have a third control city on various places, specifically I-70 WB and I-44 WB west of St Louis. You can see either Kansas City, Columbia or Wentzville signed as a control city on I-70 WB in St Charles County. I'm fine with Columbia, as it's roughly in the middle of the 250 miles between KC and StL, and has Missouri's flagship university, but I don't get the need of Wentzville, which is increasingly appearing on new signage. I-44 WB changes from Tulsa to Rolla as you get out of the St Louis area, and you don't see Tulsa again until west of Joplin. As if Rolla isn't enough, a third control city (St Clair) is also used WB at some interchanges.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: I-55 on April 13, 2021, 08:10:18 PM
Tennessee is among my picks for the best. My only critiques:

- Jackson, TN should be a secondary control for I-40 (at least out of Memphis)

- Jackson Miss - Jackson, MS

- Bristol maybe should be included with Asheville for I-40 east out of Knoxville.

Other than that, I think all other control city selections are no brainers and good.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 08:44:51 PM
From terminus to terminus I think US-35 should be Michigan City, La Porte, Kokomo, Muncie, Richmond, Dayton, Chillicothe, Charleston.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: webny99 on April 13, 2021, 09:07:57 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 13, 2021, 04:17:39 PM
There are only two control cities:

Albany and Buffalo. :D

It does seem that way in much of Upstate NY, which is my main beef with NY. I'd use Syracuse in both directions on the Thruway. No issues with I-81, I-87, or I-88. For I-86/NY 17 WB I'd use Erie PA instead of Jamestown.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 09:49:38 PM
I think all states have at least 1 or 2 control city decisions that I disagree with. But in general I agree with Georgia's and South Carolina's control cities and I sometimes agree, sometimes disagree with North Carolina's control cities.

And it's not like California "never" uses out-of-state cities. Most people that say that, are only thinking of I-10 east from LA. I-10 east does use Phoenix, although beginning from Indio.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 09:54:10 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 09:49:38 PM
I think all states have at least 1 or 2 control city decisions that I disagree with. But in general I agree with Georgia's and South Carolina's control cities and I sometimes agree, sometimes disagree with North Carolina's control cities.

And it's not like California "never" uses out-of-state cities. Most people that say that, are only thinking of I-10 east from LA. I-10 east does use Phoenix, although beginning from Indio.
They don't use Portland on I-5 or Flagstaff on I-40 (at least until you get close to the border).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 10:01:23 PM
Is Flagstaff really that much more significant than Needles?

Is most long distance traffic on the route, really going all the way to Portland?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:03:52 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 10:01:23 PM
Is Flagstaff really that much more significant than Needles?

Is most long distance traffic on the route, really going all the way to Portland?
I dunno about Portland but Redding is the only city I consider significant enough. And control cities should be meant for long-distance travelers.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 10:04:26 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 10:01:23 PM
Is Flagstaff really that much more significant than Needles?
One is in that Route 66 song everyone and their mother knows, and the other isn't, so yes  :-D
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:05:30 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 10:04:26 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 10:01:23 PM
Is Flagstaff really that much more significant than Needles?
One is in that Route 66 song everyone and their mother knows, and the other isn't, so yes  :-D
Also Flagstaff has over 70 thousand people and Needles isn't even at 5 thousand people.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 10:06:22 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:03:52 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 10:01:23 PM
Is Flagstaff really that much more significant than Needles?

Is most long distance traffic on the route, really going all the way to Portland?
I dunno about Portland but Redding is the only city I consider significant enough. And control cities should be meant for long-distance travelers.

"And control cities should be meant for long-distance travelers. "

Yes, that's why I specified it. Usually "most" traffic on a route is local, but control city signage is not for them. Hence, "most long-distance traffic" (excluding local traffic).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:07:46 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 10:06:22 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:03:52 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 10:01:23 PM
Is Flagstaff really that much more significant than Needles?

Is most long distance traffic on the route, really going all the way to Portland?
I dunno about Portland but Redding is the only city I consider significant enough. And control cities should be meant for long-distance travelers.

"And control cities should be meant for long-distance travelers. "

Yes, that's why I specified it. Usually "most" traffic on a route is local, but control city signage is not for them. Hence, "most long-distance traffic" (excluding local traffic).
Where else would long-distance travelers be going to? Mount Sasha? Crater Lake?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 10:09:06 PM
I hate how IDOT uses state names but then you think about it and there really isn't another logical choice. I was in Chicago this past weekend for the first time in two years and noticed that they have Aurora as a control city replacing West Suburbs on the Ike but I did see a West Suburbs sign before seeing the Aurora sign.

I know I've probably beat this to death but using Milwaukee instead of Wisconsin or Detroit and South Bend for the I-80/94 concurrency makes more sense. I haven't been on I-65 coming up to Gary in awhile but I'm pretty sure without looking that it's Toledo and Detroit. Wouldn't South Bend make more sense than Toledo? INDOT using a city in another state over a decently populated city in their own state makes no sense.

And who in the hell even realizes that they are on US-6 when they are on the Borman?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 10:09:48 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 10:04:26 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 10:01:23 PM
Is Flagstaff really that much more significant than Needles?
One is in that Route 66 song everyone and their mother knows, and the other isn't, so yes  :-D
Reminds me of The Beatles song, "Your Mother Should Know."
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:10:20 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 10:09:06 PM
I hate how IDOT uses state names but then you think about it and there really isn't another logical choice. I was in Chicago this past weekend for the first time in two years and noticed that they have Aurora as a control city replacing West Suburbs on the Ike but I did see a West Suburbs sign before seeing the Aurora sign.

I know I've probably beat this to death but using Milwaukee instead of Wisconsin or Detroit and South Bend for the I-80/94 concurrency makes more sense. I haven't been on I-65 coming up to Gary in awhile but I'm pretty sure without looking that it's Toledo and Detroit. Wouldn't South Bend make more sense than Toledo? INDOT using a city in another state over a decently populated city in their own state makes no sense.

And who in the hell even realizes that they are on US-6 when they are on the Borman?
South Bend should be used going eastbound in Chicago, and then Toledo. Westbound just use Chicago.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 10:14:02 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 10:09:06 PM
Wouldn't South Bend make more sense than Toledo? INDOT using a city in another state over a decently populated city in their own state makes no sense.
I think South Bend is a good choice if something has to be used between Chicago and Toledo, but some people here disagree. Is having Notre Dame University and the current transportation secretary not enough for South Bend's status?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: sprjus4 on April 13, 2021, 10:15:33 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 13, 2021, 02:56:06 PM
Kentucky's are generally good, although I'm not crazy about Fulton being used on I-69.

West Virginia's are iffy. I can understand using Huntington, Charleston, Beckley, Clarksburg, Parkersburg, and Morgantown. But Lewisburg on I-64 east of Beckley is ridiculous. Lexington, Va., would be a better choice. And instead of Bluefield south of Beckley, I'd use Wytheville, Va., since it's a major interstate intersection. On I-77 north of Parkersburg, I'd use Cambridge, Ohio (major intersection) or even one of the bigger Ohio cities like Akron or Cleveland instead of Marietta. Washington, Pa., is a good choice since it's also a major intersection.
I wouldn't be opposed to continuous use of Richmond for I-64 East and Charlotte for I-77 South.

Sure, Lexington and Wytheville are interstate junctions, but are not major cities. Richmond and Charlotte would provide better guidance for long distance traffic.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 10:16:30 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:05:30 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 10:04:26 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 10:01:23 PM
Is Flagstaff really that much more significant than Needles?
One is in that Route 66 song everyone and their mother knows, and the other isn't, so yes  :-D
Also Flagstaff has over 70 thousand people and Needles isn't even at 5 thousand people.
Flagstaff only had about 7,500 people in 1950.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:17:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 10:16:30 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:05:30 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 10:04:26 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 10:01:23 PM
Is Flagstaff really that much more significant than Needles?
One is in that Route 66 song everyone and their mother knows, and the other isn't, so yes  :-D
Also Flagstaff has over 70 thousand people and Needles isn't even at 5 thousand people.
Flagstaff only had about 7,500 people in 1950.
Control cities can be replaced. I'm assuming that the signs are not from the 1950s?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 10:22:51 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 10:14:02 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 10:09:06 PM
Wouldn't South Bend make more sense than Toledo? INDOT using a city in another state over a decently populated city in their own state makes no sense.
I think South Bend is a good choice if something has to be used between Chicago and Toledo, but some people here disagree. Is having Notre Dame University and the current transportation secretary not enough for South Bend's status?
It's the fourth largest city in Indiana and gets no control city signage on the Toll Road it just don't make sense. If I just assumed I would assume that South Bend was the control city not Toledo.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Revive 755 on April 13, 2021, 10:56:45 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 10:09:06 PM
I hate how IDOT uses state names but then you think about it and there really isn't another logical choice.

I don't agree - the uses of states is too vague and not logical to me when better choices are available.

* Use Milwaukee or O'Hare on WB I-90/I-94 until the Junction
* Use Milwaukee on the NB Tri-State - especially if it is good enough for a non-interstate such as such as US 41. (https://goo.gl/maps/nuisP7fbbPBmMno58)
* Definitely not use Wisconsin for I-90 (https://goo.gl/maps/F7H1Bn9gd3iD2LjYA) west of the the I-290/IL 53 interchange but east of I-39. (I'm not thrilled with using it for I-39/I-90 either - Madison should show up instead).
* Use Gary, IN instead of Indiana if wanting a closer destination, otherwise use South Bend or Toledo for I-80 and I-90.
* Stick with Des Moines for WB I-80 (https://goo.gl/maps/Aar9ukijSHHqVWHz5), or at least use Moline-Rock Island.

Also, LaSalle - Peru should make a few appearances as a secondary control city for I-80

Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 11:01:28 PM
Gary certainly is not a good choice for a control city in the Chicago area.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: TheStranger on April 14, 2021, 12:00:50 AM
Thinking about (primary) California control cities for a moment:

- US 101: the main ones southbound are Eureka, Santa Rosa, San Francisco, San Jose, Los Angeles/northbound is Ventura, San Francisco, Santa Rosa, Eureka.  All of them seem decent choices.  Maybe San Jose should be more important northbound after San Luis Obispo, given the increased level of fame that Silicon Valley has had over the last 3 decades.  I suspect part of the reason LA is not mentioned in SF is that there are too many variations for best possible route to SoCal from there (80-580-5, 101-152-5, and 101 straight up), though it is the southbound control for 101 as early as Mountain View at Route 85.  Northbound, SF first is mentioned at Route 126 in Ventura (where one already would not have the practical option of 5 or 99 to go north).

- I-80: Oakland, Sacramento, Reno eastbound/Sacramento, San Francisco/Oakland westbound.  (Keep in mind that Sacramento-SF distance is similar to NYC-Philadelphia).  I suspect Sacramento isn't signed in SF specifically to keep message loading low and allow the Bay Bridge itself to be a control destination.

- I-5: Los Angeles, Santa Ana, Sacramento (formerly Bakersfield), Redding, Portland northbound/Redding, Sacramento, Los Angeles, Santa Ana, San Diego southbound.  Not sure 5 south of downtown San Diego has control cities at all even now.  Northbound, I still think Bakersfield should be a secondary between 405 and 99.

- I-15: Escondido/Riverside, Los Angeles, Barstow, Las Vegas northbound/Barstow, Los Angeles, San Diego southbound.   LA however is never directly reached from I-15 but is more a pointer towards the various east-west roads that connect 15 in the Inland Empire to LA (210, 10, 60) and is a vestige as well of the US 66/US 91 era.  Still the most logical for drivers from Vegas.  Northbound, Riverside is still logical even if modern I-15 diverges from former I-15E/US 395/current I-215 in Murrieta.

- I-8: El Centro, Yuma eastbound/El Centro, San Diego westbound.  Pretty straightforward.

- I-40: Needles eastbound, Barstow westbound.

- Route 99: Bakersfield, Fresno, Sacramento, Yuba City, Chico, Red Bluff northbound/Chico, Yuba City, Sacramento, Fresno, Bakersfield/Los Angeles southbound.  LA a vestige of when US 99 followed 5 (Golden State Freeway) to that city. 

- I-10 is already well known for "Other Desert Cities" east of Palm Springs, lol.  That might be the one that gives the perception California's control city choices aren't the best.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2021, 12:14:39 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on April 14, 2021, 12:00:50 AM
Thinking about (primary) California control cities for a moment:

- US 101: the main ones southbound are Eureka, Santa Rosa, San Francisco, San Jose, Los Angeles/northbound is Ventura, San Francisco, Santa Rosa, Eureka.  All of them seem decent choices.  Maybe San Jose should be more important northbound after San Luis Obispo, given the increased level of fame that Silicon Valley has had over the last 3 decades.  I suspect part of the reason LA is not mentioned in SF is that there are too many variations for best possible route to SoCal from there (80-580-5, 101-152-5, and 101 straight up), though it is the southbound control for 101 as early as Mountain View at Route 85.  Northbound, SF first is mentioned at Route 126 in Ventura (where one already would not have the practical option of 5 or 99 to go north).

- I-80: Oakland, Sacramento, Reno eastbound/Sacramento, San Francisco/Oakland westbound.  (Keep in mind that Sacramento-SF distance is similar to NYC-Philadelphia).  I suspect Sacramento isn't signed in SF specifically to keep message loading low and allow the Bay Bridge itself to be a control destination.

- I-5: Los Angeles, Santa Ana, Sacramento (formerly Bakersfield), Redding, Portland northbound/Redding, Sacramento, Los Angeles, Santa Ana, San Diego southbound.  Not sure 5 south of downtown San Diego has control cities at all even now.  Northbound, I still think Bakersfield should be a secondary between 405 and 99.

- I-15: Escondido/Riverside, Los Angeles, Barstow, Las Vegas northbound/Barstow, Los Angeles, San Diego southbound.   LA however is never directly reached from I-15 but is more a pointer towards the various east-west roads that connect 15 in the Inland Empire to LA (210, 10, 60) and is a vestige as well of the US 66/US 91 era.  Still the most logical for drivers from Vegas.  Northbound, Riverside is still logical even if modern I-15 diverges from former I-15E/US 395/current I-215 in Murrieta.

- I-8: El Centro, Yuma eastbound/El Centro, San Diego westbound.  Pretty straightforward.

- I-40: Needles eastbound, Barstow westbound.

- Route 99: Bakersfield, Fresno, Sacramento, Yuba City, Chico, Red Bluff northbound/Chico, Yuba City, Sacramento, Fresno, Bakersfield/Los Angeles southbound.  LA a vestige of when US 99 followed 5 (Golden State Freeway) to that city. 

- I-10 is already well known for "Other Desert Cities" east of Palm Springs, lol.  That might be the one that gives the perception California's control city choices aren't the best.
Interesting that California uses Yuma but Arizona does not.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on April 14, 2021, 03:06:45 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 08:03:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 07:17:56 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 07:03:02 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 06:36:41 PM
I like Michigan's. I-69 they use Port Huron, Flint, Lansing and Fort Wayne.

I-75 they use Detroit, Toledo, Flint, Saginaw, Mackinac Bridge and Sault Ste Marie.

I-94 is Detroit, Chicago and Port Huron. Although at secondary interchanges Michigan cities are used.

I-96 uses Detroit, Lansing, Grand Rapids and Muskegon.

I don't get the use of Buena Vista for M-46 at the I-75 interchange though. You're already in Buena Vista and Saginaw is right next to it and is a much larger town. Buena Vista is a Township which is a suburb of Saginaw.
Michigan also does control cities on non-interstate freeways better than Ohio does. See my rant above for Ohio's choices, like every county seat on US 35, a major trucking route between the Midwest and Carolinas. I took a look at US 23, and mostly see Toledo, Ann Arbor, Flint used. If you had ODOT sign control cities on that segment, it would go something like Toledo, Dundee or Milan, Ann Arbor, Brighton, Fenton, Flint.

Forgot to include this in my post above, here's my thought on US 24's control cities in OH:
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 01, 2021, 09:48:02 PM
I forgot a US route freeway in Ohio:

US 24: Ft Wayne, Toledo
For a US route that's really important for long distance travel (part of the shortcut for I-69 between Ft Wayne and Pt Huron), it really shouldn't have any in-state control cities west of Toledo. So goodbye Defiance and Napoleon.
That is all 23 uses on its solo freeway stretch between Flint and Toledo but Brighton might make some sense although it's kind of close to Ann Arbor it's where I-96 crosses it so it's a major point on the highway. For US-35 going east of Dayton I would just use Chillicothe it's more in the middle of the state and using Xenia and Washington courthouse and stuff like that just don't make any sense.
East of Chillicothe, Jackson and Gallipolis can be removed too. That will leave the EB direction with Charleston, which is where most vehicles would presumably turn south onto the WV turnpike towards VA and NC.

If someone is going to rank all the states for control cities, for the 'good' category that was posted above, I think Michigan would go above Ohio, which would go above Missouri.
My issue with Missouri is that they have a third control city on various places, specifically I-70 WB and I-44 WB west of St Louis. You can see either Kansas City, Columbia or Wentzville signed as a control city on I-70 WB in St Charles County. I'm fine with Columbia, as it's roughly in the middle of the 250 miles between KC and StL, and has Missouri's flagship university, but I don't get the need of Wentzville, which is increasingly appearing on new signage. I-44 WB changes from Tulsa to Rolla as you get out of the St Louis area, and you don't see Tulsa again until west of Joplin. As if Rolla isn't enough, a third control city (St Clair) is also used WB at some interchanges.


I-44 west shouldn’t use Tulsa from St. Louis as Springfield, MO is most appropriate. Thus being a large regional city close to the Ozark Moutains and many other SW MO destinations. That would make most sense.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on April 14, 2021, 03:29:18 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 14, 2021, 03:06:45 AM
I-44 west shouldn't use Tulsa from St. Louis as Springfield, MO is most appropriate. Thus being a large regional city close to the Ozark Moutains and many other SW MO destinations. That would make most sense.

You're in St. Louis, and you see a sign for "I-44 West–Springfield". "Ah!" you say, guiding your car down the exit ramp. "I know this is my exit; I'm heading to Chicago, Illinois, and I remember my state capitals!"

Quote from: Rothman on April 13, 2021, 04:17:39 PM
There are only two control cities:

Albany and Buffalo. :D

This makes things extremely awkward for the engineers that have to sign I-27.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on April 14, 2021, 04:00:44 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 14, 2021, 03:29:18 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 14, 2021, 03:06:45 AM
I-44 west shouldn't use Tulsa from St. Louis as Springfield, MO is most appropriate. Thus being a large regional city close to the Ozark Moutains and many other SW MO destinations. That would make most sense.

You're in St. Louis, and you see a sign for "I-44 West–Springfield". "Ah!" you say, guiding your car down the exit ramp. "I know this is my exit; I'm heading to Chicago, Illinois, and I remember my state capitals!"

Quote from: Rothman on April 13, 2021, 04:17:39 PM
There are only two control cities:

Albany and Buffalo. :D

This makes things extremely awkward for the engineers that have to sign I-27.

That is why the MO is used. Just like INDOT used to say Columbus, OH for I-70 East to avoid the confusion with Columbus, IN.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on April 14, 2021, 04:10:04 AM
"Tulsa" is a lot shorter than "Springfield MO" and can't be confused with anything in Illinois, though. :spin:
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on April 14, 2021, 04:15:46 AM
Yeah but hundreds of miles out with the city disappearing for 200 of them.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kphoger on April 14, 2021, 10:12:39 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 10:06:22 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:03:52 PM

Quote from: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 10:01:23 PM
Is Flagstaff really that much more significant than Needles?

Is most long distance traffic on the route, really going all the way to Portland?

I dunno about Portland but Redding is the only city I consider significant enough. And control cities should be meant for long-distance travelers.

"And control cities should be meant for long-distance travelers. "

Yes, that's why I specified it. Usually "most" traffic on a route is local, but control city signage is not for them. Hence, "most long-distance traffic" (excluding local traffic).

My opinion is that, if it's big enough to be a control city, then one should expect at least some out-of-area travelers to be heading there as a destination–or, at the very least, to know where it is.  I think Flagstaff fits the bill, with more than 70,000 people living there and it being a common jumping-off point (not literally) for the Grand Canyon.  And Redding also does, with nearly 100,000 people living there.

My own preference is to use a regional/local destination and a long-distance/faraway destination.  So I'd use REDDING/PORTLAND, for example.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 14, 2021, 10:48:14 AM
The counties that I have clinched in Missouri are all along I-44 basically except for the counties in the Boot Hill area along I-55. I remember Rolla being used and can remember where that city is at. Springfield, MO might still confuse some people confusing it for Springfield, IL even with the state abbreviation. Why is Tulsa used in the St Louis area and then replaced before it gets to Tulsa?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2021, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2021, 10:48:14 AM
The counties that I have clinched in Missouri are all along I-44 basically except for the counties in the Boot Hill area along I-55. I remember Rolla being used and can remember where that city is at. Springfield, MO might still confuse some people confusing it for Springfield, IL even with the state abbreviation. Why is Tulsa used in the St Louis area and then replaced before it gets to Tulsa?
When you are out of St. Louis it is no longer confusable with Springfield, IL?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on April 14, 2021, 11:35:38 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2021, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2021, 10:48:14 AM
The counties that I have clinched in Missouri are all along I-44 basically except for the counties in the Boot Hill area along I-55. I remember Rolla being used and can remember where that city is at. Springfield, MO might still confuse some people confusing it for Springfield, IL even with the state abbreviation. Why is Tulsa used in the St Louis area and then replaced before it gets to Tulsa?
When you are out of St. Louis it is no longer confusable with Springfield, IL?
I mentioned it upthread, but as you go west on I-44 out of St Louis, Rolla starts appearing as a control city instead of Tulsa. You don't see Springfield WB until past Rolla.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2021, 11:36:50 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 14, 2021, 11:35:38 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2021, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2021, 10:48:14 AM
The counties that I have clinched in Missouri are all along I-44 basically except for the counties in the Boot Hill area along I-55. I remember Rolla being used and can remember where that city is at. Springfield, MO might still confuse some people confusing it for Springfield, IL even with the state abbreviation. Why is Tulsa used in the St Louis area and then replaced before it gets to Tulsa?
When you are out of St. Louis it is no longer confusable with Springfield, IL?
I mentioned it upthread, but as you go west on I-44 out of St Louis, Rolla starts appearing as a control city instead of Tulsa. You don't see Springfield WB until past Rolla.
Rolla? I'd prefer Tulsa.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on April 14, 2021, 11:40:46 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2021, 11:36:50 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 14, 2021, 11:35:38 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2021, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2021, 10:48:14 AM
The counties that I have clinched in Missouri are all along I-44 basically except for the counties in the Boot Hill area along I-55. I remember Rolla being used and can remember where that city is at. Springfield, MO might still confuse some people confusing it for Springfield, IL even with the state abbreviation. Why is Tulsa used in the St Louis area and then replaced before it gets to Tulsa?
When you are out of St. Louis it is no longer confusable with Springfield, IL?
I mentioned it upthread, but as you go west on I-44 out of St Louis, Rolla starts appearing as a control city instead of Tulsa. You don't see Springfield WB until past Rolla.
Rolla? I'd prefer Tulsa.
It's a college town, with Missouri University of Science and Technology.

If a town or small city have to be used as a control city, I think college towns are good choices over most others. I mentioned Columbia, MO (Mizzou) on I-70 as an example. Some others suggested using Champaign (UIUC) on I-57 and I-74, and Lafayette (Purdue) on I-65, most likely because they have well-known universities. With I-69 south of Indianapolis, I think Bloomington is a good control city because of IU. Though with Rolla, afaik, not a lot of people out of state heard of Missouri S&T.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kphoger on April 14, 2021, 11:47:52 AM
No, but everyone in Missouri knows where Rolla is.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2021, 11:50:16 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 14, 2021, 11:40:46 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2021, 11:36:50 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 14, 2021, 11:35:38 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2021, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2021, 10:48:14 AM
The counties that I have clinched in Missouri are all along I-44 basically except for the counties in the Boot Hill area along I-55. I remember Rolla being used and can remember where that city is at. Springfield, MO might still confuse some people confusing it for Springfield, IL even with the state abbreviation. Why is Tulsa used in the St Louis area and then replaced before it gets to Tulsa?
When you are out of St. Louis it is no longer confusable with Springfield, IL?
I mentioned it upthread, but as you go west on I-44 out of St Louis, Rolla starts appearing as a control city instead of Tulsa. You don't see Springfield WB until past Rolla.
Rolla? I'd prefer Tulsa.
It's a college town, with Missouri University of Science and Technology.

If a town or small city have to be used as a control city, I think college towns are good choices over most others. I mentioned Columbia, MO (Mizzou) on I-70 as an example. Some others suggested using Champaign (UIUC) on I-57 and I-74, and Lafayette (Purdue) on I-65, most likely because they have well-known universities. With I-69 south of Indianapolis, I think Bloomington is a good control city because of IU. Though with Rolla, afaik, not a lot of people out of state heard of Missouri S&T.
Lafayette, Bloomington and Champaign are much bigger than Rolla. Wellesley has a college too (and has more people than Rolla!) but nobody wants Wellesley as a control city.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 14, 2021, 12:07:28 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 14, 2021, 11:40:46 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2021, 11:36:50 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 14, 2021, 11:35:38 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2021, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2021, 10:48:14 AM
The counties that I have clinched in Missouri are all along I-44 basically except for the counties in the Boot Hill area along I-55. I remember Rolla being used and can remember where that city is at. Springfield, MO might still confuse some people confusing it for Springfield, IL even with the state abbreviation. Why is Tulsa used in the St Louis area and then replaced before it gets to Tulsa?
When you are out of St. Louis it is no longer confusable with Springfield, IL?
I mentioned it upthread, but as you go west on I-44 out of St Louis, Rolla starts appearing as a control city instead of Tulsa. You don't see Springfield WB until past Rolla.
Rolla? I'd prefer Tulsa.
It's a college town, with Missouri University of Science and Technology.

If a town or small city have to be used as a control city, I think college towns are good choices over most others. I mentioned Columbia, MO (Mizzou) on I-70 as an example. Some others suggested using Champaign (UIUC) on I-57 and I-74, and Lafayette (Purdue) on I-65, most likely because they have well-known universities. With I-69 south of Indianapolis, I think Bloomington is a good control city because of IU. Though with Rolla, afaik, not a lot of people out of state heard of Missouri S&T.
On I-65 Chicago and Indy are going to be dominate.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 14, 2021, 12:10:15 PM
Rolla being used is fine. I'm still wondering why Tulsa is used going WB and then replaced with Rolla.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on April 14, 2021, 12:11:26 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2021, 12:10:15 PM
Rolla being used is fine. I'm still wondering why Tulsa is used going WB and then replaced with Rolla.

That is like I-70 using St. Louis out of KC to be then signed Columbia.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 14, 2021, 12:12:24 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 14, 2021, 12:11:26 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 14, 2021, 12:10:15 PM
Rolla being used is fine. I'm still wondering why Tulsa is used going WB and then replaced with Rolla.

That is like I-70 using St. Louis out of KC to be then signed Columbia.
Columbia would work in both KC and STL.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: jmacswimmer on April 14, 2021, 12:16:23 PM
^

This might not be the answer, but just a non-local perspective: Maybe MoDOT uses Tulsa in STL to assist long-distance traffic transitioning from other routes such as I-55, I-64, or I-70, and then once this traffic is "settled" on I-44 leaving STL, they use more local controls since this long-distance traffic will simply be continuing straight for a while?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on April 14, 2021, 12:20:13 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on April 14, 2021, 12:16:23 PM
^

This might not be the answer, but just a non-local perspective: Maybe MoDOT uses Tulsa in STL to assist long-distance traffic transitioning from other routes such as I-55, I-64, or I-70, and then once this traffic is "settled" on I-44 leaving STL, they use more local controls since this long-distance traffic will simply be continuing straight for a while?

I would say in a case like that use Rolla and Tulsa together, and every 10 miles or so use a mileage sign separate from the post interchange mileage signs to spell out Tulsa.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on April 14, 2021, 12:29:38 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on April 14, 2021, 12:16:23 PM
^

This might not be the answer, but just a non-local perspective: Maybe MoDOT uses Tulsa in STL to assist long-distance traffic transitioning from other routes such as I-55, I-64, or I-70, and then once this traffic is "settled" on I-44 leaving STL, they use more local controls since this long-distance traffic will simply be continuing straight for a while?
That may be the explanation for Kansas City on I-70 too. Though for KC, St Louis county is pretty consistent with signing Kansas City as WB I-70's control at every entrance ramp and pullthrough. Once you cross over the Missouri River into St Charles County, that's when you start seeing Wentzville and Columbia over KC, except the MO 370 and I-64 interchanges because they're freeway to freeway.

On I-44, first appearance of Rolla is at the MO 141 interchange, 4 miles west of the I-270 interchange. The interchange with I-270 is I-44's last interstate-interstate interchange westbound until I-49 in Joplin, so I guess like you said, a lot of the traffic settled onto I-44 leaving StL at that point, and even more so past MO 141.

Something interesting. Mileage sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.53709,-90.5088719,3a,25.1y,280.51h,88.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6aXs63oI9IX_9MM0UZzG9Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) west of the MO 141 interchange. Rolla isn't mentioned at all despite being mentioned as a control city just east of that sign. The three destinations listed are:
Ft Leonard Wood - 111
Springfield - 194
Tulsa - 370
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on April 14, 2021, 12:52:24 PM
I-270 annoys me that they prefer Chicago over Indy.  N Bound it is signed for that city despite in IL I-270 defaults into I-70 East again and even IDOT signing Indianapolis from Chain of Rocks Bridge to the I-70 merge.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hbelkins on April 14, 2021, 01:27:53 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 13, 2021, 10:15:33 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 13, 2021, 02:56:06 PM
Kentucky's are generally good, although I'm not crazy about Fulton being used on I-69.

West Virginia's are iffy. I can understand using Huntington, Charleston, Beckley, Clarksburg, Parkersburg, and Morgantown. But Lewisburg on I-64 east of Beckley is ridiculous. Lexington, Va., would be a better choice. And instead of Bluefield south of Beckley, I'd use Wytheville, Va., since it's a major interstate intersection. On I-77 north of Parkersburg, I'd use Cambridge, Ohio (major intersection) or even one of the bigger Ohio cities like Akron or Cleveland instead of Marietta. Washington, Pa., is a good choice since it's also a major intersection.
I wouldn't be opposed to continuous use of Richmond for I-64 East and Charlotte for I-77 South.

Sure, Lexington and Wytheville are interstate junctions, but are not major cities. Richmond and Charlotte would provide better guidance for long distance traffic.

Richmond and Charlotte are used as supplementals at the 64-77 split, but they disappear. You don't see Charlotte until the I-77 split from I-81, and if memory serves, you don't even see Richmond until I-64 east splits from I-81 north at Staunton. Lexington shows up east of Lewisburg.

And I would use Statesville on I-77 south of I-81 because it's the intersection with I-40. Once I-74 gets finished, I might even change that to Mt. Airy.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2021, 02:15:34 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 14, 2021, 01:27:53 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 13, 2021, 10:15:33 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 13, 2021, 02:56:06 PM
Kentucky's are generally good, although I'm not crazy about Fulton being used on I-69.

West Virginia's are iffy. I can understand using Huntington, Charleston, Beckley, Clarksburg, Parkersburg, and Morgantown. But Lewisburg on I-64 east of Beckley is ridiculous. Lexington, Va., would be a better choice. And instead of Bluefield south of Beckley, I'd use Wytheville, Va., since it's a major interstate intersection. On I-77 north of Parkersburg, I'd use Cambridge, Ohio (major intersection) or even one of the bigger Ohio cities like Akron or Cleveland instead of Marietta. Washington, Pa., is a good choice since it's also a major intersection.
I wouldn't be opposed to continuous use of Richmond for I-64 East and Charlotte for I-77 South.

Sure, Lexington and Wytheville are interstate junctions, but are not major cities. Richmond and Charlotte would provide better guidance for long distance traffic.

Richmond and Charlotte are used as supplementals at the 64-77 split, but they disappear. You don't see Charlotte until the I-77 split from I-81, and if memory serves, you don't even see Richmond until I-64 east splits from I-81 north at Staunton. Lexington shows up east of Lewisburg.

And I would use Statesville on I-77 south of I-81 because it's the intersection with I-40. Once I-74 gets finished, I might even change that to Mt. Airy.
Statesville is too close to Charlotte.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 16, 2021, 10:12:03 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2021, 02:15:34 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 14, 2021, 01:27:53 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 13, 2021, 10:15:33 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 13, 2021, 02:56:06 PM
Kentucky's are generally good, although I'm not crazy about Fulton being used on I-69.

West Virginia's are iffy. I can understand using Huntington, Charleston, Beckley, Clarksburg, Parkersburg, and Morgantown. But Lewisburg on I-64 east of Beckley is ridiculous. Lexington, Va., would be a better choice. And instead of Bluefield south of Beckley, I'd use Wytheville, Va., since it's a major interstate intersection. On I-77 north of Parkersburg, I'd use Cambridge, Ohio (major intersection) or even one of the bigger Ohio cities like Akron or Cleveland instead of Marietta. Washington, Pa., is a good choice since it's also a major intersection.
I wouldn't be opposed to continuous use of Richmond for I-64 East and Charlotte for I-77 South.

Sure, Lexington and Wytheville are interstate junctions, but are not major cities. Richmond and Charlotte would provide better guidance for long distance traffic.

Richmond and Charlotte are used as supplementals at the 64-77 split, but they disappear. You don't see Charlotte until the I-77 split from I-81, and if memory serves, you don't even see Richmond until I-64 east splits from I-81 north at Staunton. Lexington shows up east of Lewisburg.

And I would use Statesville on I-77 south of I-81 because it's the intersection with I-40. Once I-74 gets finished, I might even change that to Mt. Airy.
Statesville is too close to Charlotte.
It's about 40 miles which seems like an ok distance.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: thspfc on April 16, 2021, 10:42:44 AM
Rolla is way too small for a major cross-country Interstate, especially with Springfield and Tulsa not far away.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: sprjus4 on April 16, 2021, 11:38:57 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 16, 2021, 10:12:03 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 14, 2021, 02:15:34 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 14, 2021, 01:27:53 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 13, 2021, 10:15:33 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 13, 2021, 02:56:06 PM
Kentucky's are generally good, although I'm not crazy about Fulton being used on I-69.

West Virginia's are iffy. I can understand using Huntington, Charleston, Beckley, Clarksburg, Parkersburg, and Morgantown. But Lewisburg on I-64 east of Beckley is ridiculous. Lexington, Va., would be a better choice. And instead of Bluefield south of Beckley, I'd use Wytheville, Va., since it's a major interstate intersection. On I-77 north of Parkersburg, I'd use Cambridge, Ohio (major intersection) or even one of the bigger Ohio cities like Akron or Cleveland instead of Marietta. Washington, Pa., is a good choice since it's also a major intersection.
I wouldn't be opposed to continuous use of Richmond for I-64 East and Charlotte for I-77 South.

Sure, Lexington and Wytheville are interstate junctions, but are not major cities. Richmond and Charlotte would provide better guidance for long distance traffic.

Richmond and Charlotte are used as supplementals at the 64-77 split, but they disappear. You don't see Charlotte until the I-77 split from I-81, and if memory serves, you don't even see Richmond until I-64 east splits from I-81 north at Staunton. Lexington shows up east of Lewisburg.

And I would use Statesville on I-77 south of I-81 because it's the intersection with I-40. Once I-74 gets finished, I might even change that to Mt. Airy.
Statesville is too close to Charlotte.
It's about 40 miles which seems like an ok distance.
But Charlotte is the much larger city in that case. Statesville is nothing more than an interstate junction (which I don't agree with should be considered major control cities) and not much long distance traffic is transitioning to I-40.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 01:08:52 PM
Is Rolla used as a primary control city or a secondary control city?  I mean, Illinois uses Cairo (pop. 2000) on some signs like this (https://goo.gl/maps/fWptKk3YioRRFhWT8).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on April 16, 2021, 02:39:37 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 01:08:52 PM
Is Rolla used as a primary control city or a secondary control city?  I mean, Illinois uses Cairo (pop. 2000) on some signs like this (https://goo.gl/maps/fWptKk3YioRRFhWT8).
Primary, between some point in Springfield and MO 141 west of St Louis. East of MO 141, it uses Tulsa WB. Other small towns are used as secondaries, like St Clair for WB 44 on the eastern MO 100 interchange.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 02:52:33 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 16, 2021, 02:39:37 PM

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 01:08:52 PM
Is Rolla used as a primary control city or a secondary control city?  I mean, Illinois uses Cairo (pop. 2000) on some signs like this (https://goo.gl/maps/fWptKk3YioRRFhWT8).

Primary, between some point in Springfield and MO 141 west of St Louis. East of MO 141, it uses Tulsa WB. Other small towns are used as secondaries, like St Clair for WB 44 on the eastern MO 100 interchange.

I've never really been clear on the matter, so forgive me if this is a stupid question.  (Remember, kids, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people who ask a lot of questions.)  How can you tell the difference between a primary and a secondary control city?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on April 16, 2021, 03:07:05 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 02:52:33 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 16, 2021, 02:39:37 PM

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 01:08:52 PM
Is Rolla used as a primary control city or a secondary control city?  I mean, Illinois uses Cairo (pop. 2000) on some signs like this (https://goo.gl/maps/fWptKk3YioRRFhWT8).

Primary, between some point in Springfield and MO 141 west of St Louis. East of MO 141, it uses Tulsa WB. Other small towns are used as secondaries, like St Clair for WB 44 on the eastern MO 100 interchange.

I've never really been clear on the matter, so forgive me if this is a stupid question.  (Remember, kids, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people who ask a lot of questions.)  How can you tell the difference between a primary and a secondary control city?
I normally go by the one used at major (normally freeway-freeway interchanges) as the primary, and the others as the secondary. Though I'm new to this split too, as Ohio doesn't really sign secondary control cities, and I didn't pay attention to the control cities when I lived in Missouri.

As I mentioned above, I-70 WB in St Charles County also have a tertiary control city: Wentzville. This is the general pattern I see with which one gets used on I-70 WB between I-64 and the Missouri River:

Freeway interchanges (I-64, MO 370): Primary - Kansas City
Lettered and numbered non-freeway state routes: Secondary - Columbia
Numberless roads: Tertiary - Wentzville
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: webny99 on April 16, 2021, 03:21:13 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 02:52:33 PM
I've never really been clear on the matter, so forgive me if this is a stupid question.  (Remember, kids, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people who ask a lot of questions.)  How can you tell the difference between a primary and a secondary control city?

The primary control city is the bottom line on the pull-through signs and post-interchange mileage signs. Anything else is secondary.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 03:21:46 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 16, 2021, 03:07:05 PM
I normally go by the one used at major (normally freeway-freeway interchanges) as the primary, and the others as the secondary.

In that case, then...  what "major interchanges" are there between Saint Louis and Rolla, other than MO-141?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on April 16, 2021, 03:27:40 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 03:21:46 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 16, 2021, 03:07:05 PM
I normally go by the one used at major (normally freeway-freeway interchanges) as the primary, and the others as the secondary.

In that case, then...  what "major interchanges" are there between Saint Louis and Rolla, other than MO-141?
All I think? Besides the MO 100 example, I see Rolla signed as the WB 44 control city between those two points consistently.

I'm new to this too, and explaining based off my observations. Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 03:33:44 PM
Quote from: webny99 on April 16, 2021, 03:21:13 PM

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 02:52:33 PM
I've never really been clear on the matter, so forgive me if this is a stupid question.  (Remember, kids, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people who ask a lot of questions.)  How can you tell the difference between a primary and a secondary control city?

The primary control city is the bottom line on the pull-through signs and post-interchange mileage signs. Anything else is secondary.

In that case, it appears to happen ...

Update:  between Sullivan (Springfield 145 (https://goo.gl/maps/4WUHdhNAKkzzkYt6A)) and Leasburg (Rolla 26 (https://goo.gl/maps/XyRcnRYFjQfKbTbR8)).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 03:41:11 PM
Or it's just a case of only the secondary control city being used through that stretch.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on April 16, 2021, 04:04:27 PM
I believe the signs for I-44 from US-65 in Springfield use St Louis rather than Rolla. Every other interchange in Springfield uses Rolla, though.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: webny99 on April 16, 2021, 11:17:06 PM
IMO, Rolla is a quintessential secondary control city. It's more likely to be a waypoint than a destination, and it works well as the middle line on the post-interchange distance signs.

Like this, for example:

Cuba         XX
Rolla         XX
Springfield XX


Or, in the other direction:

St. Robert XX
Rolla         XX
St. Louis   XX
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Revive 755 on April 17, 2021, 12:07:54 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 16, 2021, 03:27:40 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 03:21:46 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 16, 2021, 03:07:05 PM
I normally go by the one used at major (normally freeway-freeway interchanges) as the primary, and the others as the secondary.

In that case, then...  what "major interchanges" are there between Saint Louis and Rolla, other than MO-141?
All I think? Besides the MO 100 example, I see Rolla signed as the WB 44 control city between those two points consistently.

I was going to say the interchange with US 50, but that one uses St. Clair for WB I-44 (https://goo.gl/maps/eQzTmUStSxN2C2Xq8)

There is (was?) a lot of variation of control cities on I-44 with a number of tertiary control cities.

* The Stanton interchange uses Sullivan and St. Clair (https://goo.gl/maps/KuHnfEWUHp1jyWq29)

* The western Sullivan interchange has St. Clair for EB (https://goo.gl/maps/mz5oLkH6GizNvN1J6) and Cuba for WB (https://goo.gl/maps/9Aw67xUnycXcV6n59)

* The interchange at Bourbon has Sullivan and Cuba (https://goo.gl/maps/j727cpb8Tf8Cgirt7)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: achilles765 on April 17, 2021, 01:31:39 PM
In my experiences Mississippi has some of the worst. I mean McComb? Brookhaven? Grenada? Laurel?

I think we do them pretty well here in Texas but then again we have a lot of big, major cities. Only California can compare. I mean we have Beaumont, Houston, San Antonio, El Paso, Austin, Laredo, Corpus Christi, Lubbock, Amarillo, Dallas, Fort Worth.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on April 17, 2021, 02:06:52 PM
Quote from: achilles765 on April 17, 2021, 01:31:39 PM
In my experiences Mississippi has some of the worst. I mean McComb? Brookhaven? Grenada? Laurel?

I think we do them pretty well here in Texas but then again we have a lot of big, major cities. Only California can compare. I mean we have Beaumont, Houston, San Antonio, El Paso, Austin, Laredo, Corpus Christi, Lubbock, Amarillo, Dallas, Fort Worth.

Waco... Denton...
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: sprjus4 on April 17, 2021, 03:42:46 PM
I-35 between San Antonio and Dallas-Fort Worth should only use these cities:

San Antonio, Austin, Dallas, Fort Worth.

Not Waco.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on April 17, 2021, 08:22:40 PM
Waco is large enough to have its own media market. I would say that Waco should be used southbound, but could be skipped going northbound (use Dallas/Fort Worth from Austin)

I agree that Denton shouldn't be a control city, but too many people, especially non-roadgeeks, have this weird idea that a route should actually reach a control city in order for that city to be posted. Which probably influenced the selection of Denton due to it being the end of I-35E and I-35W.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: sprjus4 on April 17, 2021, 08:33:37 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on April 17, 2021, 08:22:40 PM
Waco is large enough to have its own media market. I would say that Waco should be used southbound, but could be skipped going northbound (use Dallas/Fort Worth from Austin)
Not disagreeing, but the majority of through traffic on I-35 is destined to Austin or San Antonio, not Waco.

Northbound, it should be Austin, then Dallas, and vice versa Austin then San Antonio.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on April 17, 2021, 08:48:13 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on April 17, 2021, 08:22:40 PM
I agree that Denton shouldn't be a control city, but too many people, especially non-roadgeeks, have this weird idea that a route should actually reach a control city in order for that city to be posted. Which probably influenced the selection of Denton due to it being the end of I-35E and I-35W.

Then shouldn't the southbound I-35W/E control city be Hillsboro, not Waco?

Signing Waco wouldn't be that much different than signing Norman between OKC and Dallas, and I think most people would agree that would be suboptimal.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: thspfc on April 17, 2021, 08:48:21 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on April 17, 2021, 08:22:40 PM
Waco is large enough to have its own media market. I would say that Waco should be used southbound, but could be skipped going northbound (use Dallas/Fort Worth from Austin)
San Antonio is 10 times bigger. That's all I have to say.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on April 17, 2021, 10:07:30 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 13, 2021, 10:56:45 PM
* Use Gary, IN instead of Indiana if wanting a closer destination, otherwise use South Bend or Toledo for I-80 and I-90.

Here's the problem with EB I-80/94 and I-90 in the Chicago area. The routes intersect and cross each other at Lake Station, so some of the EB traffic is going to follow 94 toward Detroit and the rest will follow 80/90 toward South Bend. Using either one as a control city disregards the traffic that will be heading toward the other. And that's not even taking into consideration traffic that's going to head south on 65.

Using a local destination like Gary doesn't work because there is no one predominant local destination.

Indiana really is about the best descriptor here.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Revive 755 on April 17, 2021, 10:56:43 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 17, 2021, 10:07:30 PM
Here's the problem with EB I-80/94 and I-90 in the Chicago area. The routes intersect and cross each other at Lake Station, so some of the EB traffic is going to follow 94 toward Detroit and the rest will follow 80/90 toward South Bend. Using either one as a control city disregards the traffic that will be heading toward the other. And that's not even taking into consideration traffic that's going to head south on 65.

Using a local destination like Gary doesn't work because there is no one predominant local destination.

Indiana really is about the best descriptor here.

To me Gary would work since it has the interchanges with I-65 on both the Borman and Toll Road.

But if not Gary maybe Michigan City instead.  :spin:
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ftballfan on April 17, 2021, 10:59:29 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 17, 2021, 10:07:30 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 13, 2021, 10:56:45 PM
* Use Gary, IN instead of Indiana if wanting a closer destination, otherwise use South Bend or Toledo for I-80 and I-90.

Here's the problem with EB I-80/94 and I-90 in the Chicago area. The routes intersect and cross each other at Lake Station, so some of the EB traffic is going to follow 94 toward Detroit and the rest will follow 80/90 toward South Bend. Using either one as a control city disregards the traffic that will be heading toward the other. And that's not even taking into consideration traffic that's going to head south on 65.

Using a local destination like Gary doesn't work because there is no one predominant local destination.

Indiana really is about the best descriptor here.
Quite a few potential control cities would make some sense along at least part of 80/94 (such as Indianapolis, Detroit, South Bend, Toledo, or even Grand Rapids), but none fit perfectly.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 18, 2021, 07:31:56 AM
There's a spot somewhere on the south side of Chicago that has the first mention of Detroit for I-94. Chicago is obviously mentioned in Detroit. I-75 being the first interchange that has Chicago signage.

I mentioned it before but I still can't figure out why INDOT wouldn't use South Bend instead of Toledo east of South Bend Toledo is fine.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 18, 2021, 07:33:17 AM
Quote from: ftballfan on April 17, 2021, 10:59:29 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 17, 2021, 10:07:30 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 13, 2021, 10:56:45 PM
* Use Gary, IN instead of Indiana if wanting a closer destination, otherwise use South Bend or Toledo for I-80 and I-90.

Here's the problem with EB I-80/94 and I-90 in the Chicago area. The routes intersect and cross each other at Lake Station, so some of the EB traffic is going to follow 94 toward Detroit and the rest will follow 80/90 toward South Bend. Using either one as a control city disregards the traffic that will be heading toward the other. And that's not even taking into consideration traffic that's going to head south on 65.

Using a local destination like Gary doesn't work because there is no one predominant local destination.

Indiana really is about the best descriptor here.
Quite a few potential control cities would make some sense along at least part of 80/94 (such as Indianapolis, Detroit, South Bend, Toledo, or even Grand Rapids), but none fit perfectly.
I can't remember off the top of my head but isn't Holland used before Grand Rapids when you're going northbound on I-196? I'm thinking it should mention both cities.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: achilles765 on May 19, 2021, 11:10:31 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 17, 2021, 03:42:46 PM
I-35 between San Antonio and Dallas-Fort Worth should only use these cities:

San Antonio, Austin, Dallas, Fort Worth.

Not Waco.

I think the reasoning behind Waco is that it is very close to where IH 35 splits into IH 35E and IH 35W..  And Denton is where they rejoin.  That's the reason for those if I had to guess.  Plus Waco is also where IH 35 meets SH 6, an incredibly important corridor.   
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on May 19, 2021, 11:23:55 AM
Who thought of Milford on I-84 in PA?

This one is worse than Waco in Texas. Milford is a small borough and no major crossroads there. Port Jervis in NY or Newburgh should be used.  It do t even have regional significance either.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 19, 2021, 11:33:19 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 19, 2021, 11:23:55 AM
Who thought of Milford on I-84 in PA?

This one is worse than Waco in Texas. Milford is a small borough and no major crossroads there. Port Jervis in NY or Newburgh should be used.  It do t even have regional significance either.
PA loves in state cities and hates out of state cities.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: wanderer2575 on May 19, 2021, 12:03:53 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 18, 2021, 07:33:17 AM
Quote from: ftballfan on April 17, 2021, 10:59:29 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 17, 2021, 10:07:30 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 13, 2021, 10:56:45 PM
* Use Gary, IN instead of Indiana if wanting a closer destination, otherwise use South Bend or Toledo for I-80 and I-90.

Here's the problem with EB I-80/94 and I-90 in the Chicago area. The routes intersect and cross each other at Lake Station, so some of the EB traffic is going to follow 94 toward Detroit and the rest will follow 80/90 toward South Bend. Using either one as a control city disregards the traffic that will be heading toward the other. And that's not even taking into consideration traffic that's going to head south on 65.

Using a local destination like Gary doesn't work because there is no one predominant local destination.

Indiana really is about the best descriptor here.
Quite a few potential control cities would make some sense along at least part of 80/94 (such as Indianapolis, Detroit, South Bend, Toledo, or even Grand Rapids), but none fit perfectly.
I can't remember off the top of my head but isn't Holland used before Grand Rapids when you're going northbound on I-196? I'm thinking it should mention both cities.

Both Holland and Grand Rapids are on the BGS at the exit from eastbound I-94.  From there, only Holland is on the signage at I-196 interchanges until past the US-31 split.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hbelkins on May 19, 2021, 12:39:13 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 19, 2021, 11:23:55 AM
Who thought of Milford on I-84 in PA?

This one is worse than Waco in Texas. Milford is a small borough and no major crossroads there. Port Jervis in NY or Newburgh should be used.  It do t even have regional significance either.

Port Jervis is no more significant than Milford. You can't tell where Milford stops and Port Jervis begins, except there's a river to cross.

If anything, Middletown should be posted, as it's where I-84 crosses the STE/NY 17/I-86, since you reach it before the Thruway/I-87.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: bing101 on May 19, 2021, 12:58:29 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on April 13, 2021, 09:49:38 PM
I think all states have at least 1 or 2 control city decisions that I disagree with. But in general I agree with Georgia's and South Carolina's control cities and I sometimes agree, sometimes disagree with North Carolina's control cities.

And it's not like California "never" uses out-of-state cities. Most people that say that, are only thinking of I-10 east from LA. I-10 east does use Phoenix, although beginning from Indio.




D3 Caltrans in Sacramento  has out of state control cities I-80 East for Reno as a control city once it enters Sacramento and US-50 east for South Lake Tahoe. (Note South Lake Tahoe is in California) The Nevada portion of South Lake Tahoe is Stateline.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateline,_Nevada


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Lake_Tahoe,_California
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 19, 2021, 01:02:36 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 19, 2021, 12:39:13 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 19, 2021, 11:23:55 AM
Who thought of Milford on I-84 in PA?

This one is worse than Waco in Texas. Milford is a small borough and no major crossroads there. Port Jervis in NY or Newburgh should be used.  It do t even have regional significance either.

Port Jervis is no more significant than Milford. You can't tell where Milford stops and Port Jervis begins, except there's a river to cross.

If anything, Middletown should be posted, as it's where I-84 crosses the STE/NY 17/I-86, since you reach it before the Thruway/I-87.
I normally don't like using states but "New England" might actually be appropriate.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on May 19, 2021, 01:16:19 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 19, 2021, 01:02:36 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 19, 2021, 12:39:13 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 19, 2021, 11:23:55 AM
Who thought of Milford on I-84 in PA?

This one is worse than Waco in Texas. Milford is a small borough and no major crossroads there. Port Jervis in NY or Newburgh should be used.  It do t even have regional significance either.

Port Jervis is no more significant than Milford. You can't tell where Milford stops and Port Jervis begins, except there's a river to cross.

If anything, Middletown should be posted, as it's where I-84 crosses the STE/NY 17/I-86, since you reach it before the Thruway/I-87.
I normally don't like using states but "New England" might actually be appropriate.
How about "Other Northeastern Cities" ?  :sombrero:
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: TXtoNJ on May 19, 2021, 01:20:19 PM
Quote from: achilles765 on May 19, 2021, 11:10:31 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 17, 2021, 03:42:46 PM
I-35 between San Antonio and Dallas-Fort Worth should only use these cities:

San Antonio, Austin, Dallas, Fort Worth.

Not Waco.

I think the reasoning behind Waco is that it is very close to where IH 35 splits into IH 35E and IH 35W..  And Denton is where they rejoin.  That's the reason for those if I had to guess.  Plus Waco is also where IH 35 meets SH 6, an incredibly important corridor.   

Yep, this exactly.

I-35 is densely populated enough that there should be at least two control cities between Austin and Hillsboro:

NB between Austin and Waco: (Waco, Dallas/Fort Worth)
NB North of Waco: (Dallas, Fort Worth)

SB between Dallas/Fort Worth and Waco: (Waco, Austin)
SB between Waco and Austin: (Austin, San Antonio)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: jmacswimmer on May 19, 2021, 01:23:09 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 19, 2021, 01:02:36 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 19, 2021, 12:39:13 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 19, 2021, 11:23:55 AM
Who thought of Milford on I-84 in PA?

This one is worse than Waco in Texas. Milford is a small borough and no major crossroads there. Port Jervis in NY or Newburgh should be used.  It do t even have regional significance either.

Port Jervis is no more significant than Milford. You can't tell where Milford stops and Port Jervis begins, except there's a river to cross.

If anything, Middletown should be posted, as it's where I-84 crosses the STE/NY 17/I-86, since you reach it before the Thruway/I-87.
I normally don't like using states but "New England" might actually be appropriate.

There actually are a few one-off instances where I-84/New England appears on supplemental signs:

-On I-81 just before the I-78 split (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4220738,-76.5361255,3a,75y,109.77h,86.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s437Qn2pGog0mqQ5Glp7-jw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
-On I-80 EB at the I-81 interchange (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.045438,-76.0130114,3a,75y,84.95h,84.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smcxBDJlO-pLwc8hpWTlm5Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
-On I-84/I-380 just before they split (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3907377,-75.5834623,3a,75y,180.17h,89.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRfW7IsRZBa0542aqZEhI5g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
-On I-287 approaching the NJ/NY line (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0897392,-74.1682289,3a,75y,14.5h,87.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbMSWm-EDS6LgKm5-m7HqNw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en), followed downstream by I-87 approaching exit 16 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.2847313,-74.141535,3a,58y,37.49h,83.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKePKHY-2aM8Gnt8fnT3ouA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 19, 2021, 01:53:26 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 19, 2021, 01:16:19 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 19, 2021, 01:02:36 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 19, 2021, 12:39:13 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 19, 2021, 11:23:55 AM
Who thought of Milford on I-84 in PA?

This one is worse than Waco in Texas. Milford is a small borough and no major crossroads there. Port Jervis in NY or Newburgh should be used.  It do t even have regional significance either.

Port Jervis is no more significant than Milford. You can't tell where Milford stops and Port Jervis begins, except there's a river to cross.

If anything, Middletown should be posted, as it's where I-84 crosses the STE/NY 17/I-86, since you reach it before the Thruway/I-87.
I normally don't like using states but "New England" might actually be appropriate.
How about "Other Northeastern Cities" ?  :sombrero:
:-D. My logic is that I-84 is heavily used by long-distance trucks and other traffic headed to New England. Sign "Boston" or "Hartford" if you need a city.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: andrepoiy on May 19, 2021, 06:36:45 PM
Ontario's control cities I find are okay. It's just that control cities are not posted in urban sections of Toronto, which perhaps isn't really useful anyway since most trips are local trips.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: sprjus4 on May 20, 2021, 12:21:22 AM
Quote from: achilles765 on May 19, 2021, 11:10:31 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 17, 2021, 03:42:46 PM
I-35 between San Antonio and Dallas-Fort Worth should only use these cities:

San Antonio, Austin, Dallas, Fort Worth.

Not Waco.

I think the reasoning behind Waco is that it is very close to where IH 35 splits into IH 35E and IH 35W..  And Denton is where they rejoin.  That's the reason for those if I had to guess.  Plus Waco is also where IH 35 meets SH 6, an incredibly important corridor.
Not saying any of them aren't important, but Dallas-Fort Worth is easily the most important control city.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on May 22, 2021, 10:15:59 PM
Quote from: thspfc on April 16, 2021, 10:42:44 AM
Rolla is way too small for a major cross-country Interstate, especially with Springfield and Tulsa not far away.
I would argue that if you want one that is in state and will not confuse people, why not just use Joplin on 44?  I believe ODT uses Joplin going east of Tulsa.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 22, 2021, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on May 22, 2021, 10:15:59 PM
Quote from: thspfc on April 16, 2021, 10:42:44 AM
Rolla is way too small for a major cross-country Interstate, especially with Springfield and Tulsa not far away.
I would argue that if you want one that is in state and will not confuse people, why not just use Joplin on 44?  I believe ODT uses Joplin going east of Tulsa.
Joplin should only be used after Springfield. I don't like skipping over bigger cities for smaller cities on control city signs.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on May 22, 2021, 11:43:55 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 22, 2021, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on May 22, 2021, 10:15:59 PM
Quote from: thspfc on April 16, 2021, 10:42:44 AM
Rolla is way too small for a major cross-country Interstate, especially with Springfield and Tulsa not far away.
I would argue that if you want one that is in state and will not confuse people, why not just use Joplin on 44?  I believe ODT uses Joplin going east of Tulsa.
Joplin should only be used after Springfield. I don't like skipping over bigger cities for smaller cities on control city signs.
Then just use Tulsa if not Joplin. Springfield, as many have pointed out, is problematic. Joplin is not.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on May 22, 2021, 11:44:31 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 19, 2021, 12:03:53 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 18, 2021, 07:33:17 AM
Quote from: ftballfan on April 17, 2021, 10:59:29 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 17, 2021, 10:07:30 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 13, 2021, 10:56:45 PM
* Use Gary, IN instead of Indiana if wanting a closer destination, otherwise use South Bend or Toledo for I-80 and I-90.

Here's the problem with EB I-80/94 and I-90 in the Chicago area. The routes intersect and cross each other at Lake Station, so some of the EB traffic is going to follow 94 toward Detroit and the rest will follow 80/90 toward South Bend. Using either one as a control city disregards the traffic that will be heading toward the other. And that's not even taking into consideration traffic that's going to head south on 65.

Using a local destination like Gary doesn't work because there is no one predominant local destination.

Indiana really is about the best descriptor here.
Quite a few potential control cities would make some sense along at least part of 80/94 (such as Indianapolis, Detroit, South Bend, Toledo, or even Grand Rapids), but none fit perfectly.
I can't remember off the top of my head but isn't Holland used before Grand Rapids when you're going northbound on I-196? I'm thinking it should mention both cities.

Both Holland and Grand Rapids are on the BGS at the exit from eastbound I-94.  From there, only Holland is on the signage at I-196 interchanges until past the US-31 split.
On I-75 at the US-127 northern terminus coming SB I-75's control cities are Saginaw and Detroit, after that it's Saginaw until you get to the northern terminus of I-675 where it becomes Flint, then Detroit isn't used again until I-475's northern terminus.

Bay City appears on one at the Zilwaukee exit on I-75 which at that point the control city is Mackinac Bridge.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on May 22, 2021, 11:56:27 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on May 22, 2021, 11:43:55 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 22, 2021, 10:54:45 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on May 22, 2021, 10:15:59 PM
Quote from: thspfc on April 16, 2021, 10:42:44 AM
Rolla is way too small for a major cross-country Interstate, especially with Springfield and Tulsa not far away.
I would argue that if you want one that is in state and will not confuse people, why not just use Joplin on 44?  I believe ODT uses Joplin going east of Tulsa.
Joplin should only be used after Springfield. I don't like skipping over bigger cities for smaller cities on control city signs.
Then just use Tulsa if not Joplin. Springfield, as many have pointed out, is problematic. Joplin is not.
Yes, I agree with the use of Tulsa.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 10, 2022, 05:16:47 PM
QuotePA loves in state cities and hates out of state cities.

New Mexico is the same way.  The worst examples are I-25 going north from Santa Fe, I-10 west out of Las Cruces, and I-40 east out of Albuquerque.  From Santa Fe, the control city on I-25 north is Las Vegas; and in my thinking that probably confuses out-of-state motorists because they're much more familiar with Las Vegas, Nevada.  Then from there, Raton is the control city.  On I-40 east, Santa Rosa is the control city from Albuquerque, then changes to Tucumcari.  Both are too small to use as control points despite there being junctions with US highways.  And on I-10, Deming is the westbound control city from Las Cruces, then Lordsburg becomes the control city.  Before the I-25/I-40 interchange in Albuquerque was rebuilt in the early 2000s, Belen was the control city on I-25 south, and Grants was the westbound control city on I-40.  Another really bad example in New Mexico is US 285 signing Vaughn going south from Clines Corners where it intersects I-40.  I get that three US highways meet in Vaughn (54, 60, and 285); but Roswell would be a lot more logical choice because it is WAY bigger considering it's the fifth largest city in the state.  And Vaughn is almost a ghost town.

Santa Fe and Las Cruces are OK control points on I-25 from Albuquerque, since they are important cities in the state.  However, I would sign Denver as the primary control city going north, and use Santa Fe as a secondary (e.g. signing Santa Fe / Denver on the overheads within Albuquerque or signing Santa Fe at onramps for NB 25 north of Albuquerque but south of Santa Fe).  From Santa Fe to the Colorado border, only sign Denver.  And going south from Albuquerque on I-25, I would sign El Paso as the primary control city and Las Cruces as a secondary.  I-40 east, just sign Amarillo.  I-40 west should be Flagstaff, but Gallup can be signed as a secondary.  I-10 west from Las Cruces should only be signed for Tucson.  I-25 south from the Colorado border, sign Albuquerque as the primary control city and Santa Fe as a secondary.  And last but not least, I-10 east from the AZ state line should only sign Las Cruces and El Paso (former being a secondary, the latter being the primary).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hbelkins on July 10, 2022, 07:22:22 PM
The following states post the worst control cities:

Illinois
Indiana
Ohio
Kentucky
Tennessee
Possibly Missouri

Why?

Because they all use, at some point, Louisville as a control city.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hotdogPi on July 10, 2022, 08:39:08 PM
How does this thread not have the five-letter L word in it yet?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ilpt4u on July 10, 2022, 08:48:03 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 10, 2022, 07:22:22 PM
The following states post the worst control cities:

Illinois
Indiana
Ohio
Kentucky
Tennessee
Possibly Missouri

Why?

Because they all use, at some point, Louisville as a control city.
Louisville is posted in Missouri, along with Chicago and Indianapolis, on I-55/I-64/US 40 on Missouri side of the Poplar Street Bridge heading into Illinois

That said, Illinois does worse than Louisville. Using Cairo as a Control in Southern IL for I-57 is almost ridiculous. Same with using East St Louis. I-57 itself is also not a good Control for I-24. Tulsa on I-255 is also a bit silly. And those are just Southern Illinois examples

The (directional) suburbs Controls in Chicagoland on I-355, I-290, and I-88 are also silly
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: webny99 on July 10, 2022, 09:46:48 PM
I have no issues with any of NYSDOT's control cities.. NYSTA on the other hand..
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on July 11, 2022, 01:20:51 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 10, 2022, 05:16:47 PM
QuotePA loves in state cities and hates out of state cities.

New Mexico is the same way.  The worst examples are I-25 going north from Santa Fe, I-10 west out of Las Cruces, and I-40 east out of Albuquerque.  From Santa Fe, the control city on I-25 north is Las Vegas; and in my thinking that probably confuses out-of-state motorists because they're much more familiar with Las Vegas, Nevada.  Then from there, Raton is the control city.  On I-40 east, Santa Rosa is the control city from Albuquerque, then changes to Tucumcari.  Both are too small to use as control points despite there being junctions with US highways.  And on I-10, Deming is the westbound control city from Las Cruces, then Lordsburg becomes the control city.  Before the I-25/I-40 interchange in Albuquerque was rebuilt in the early 2000s, Belen was the control city on I-25 south, and Grants was the westbound control city on I-40.  Another really bad example in New Mexico is US 285 signing Vaughn going south from Clines Corners where it intersects I-40.  I get that three US highways meet in Vaughn (54, 60, and 285); but Roswell would be a lot more logical choice because it is WAY bigger considering it's the fifth largest city in the state.  And Vaughn is almost a ghost town.

Santa Fe and Las Cruces are OK control points on I-25 from Albuquerque, since they are important cities in the state.  However, I would sign Denver as the primary control city going north, and use Santa Fe as a secondary (e.g. signing Santa Fe / Denver on the overheads within Albuquerque or signing Santa Fe at onramps for NB 25 north of Albuquerque but south of Santa Fe).  From Santa Fe to the Colorado border, only sign Denver.  And going south from Albuquerque on I-25, I would sign El Paso as the primary control city and Las Cruces as a secondary.  I-40 east, just sign Amarillo.  I-40 west should be Flagstaff, but Gallup can be signed as a secondary.  I-10 west from Las Cruces should only be signed for Tucson.  I-25 south from the Colorado border, sign Albuquerque as the primary control city and Santa Fe as a secondary.  And last but not least, I-10 east from the AZ state line should only sign Las Cruces and El Paso (former being a secondary, the latter being the primary).

At least I-25 get an El Paso or two once you get to Las Cruces. 

Also, that one oddball "ARIZONA" for westbound I-10 at the US-70 intersection in west Las Cruces. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: jaehak on July 11, 2022, 01:36:59 PM
Best: Arizona, Utah, Tennessee, Indiana, New York

Worst: Colorado, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, North Carolina, Missouri

Today at least. Tomorrow it could be something else.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on July 11, 2022, 01:44:19 PM
Quote from: jaehak on July 11, 2022, 01:36:59 PM
Worst: Colorado, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, North Carolina, Missouri

Other than Limon, which has been discussed here ad nauseum, is there anything that egregious? South of Pueblo could be Albuquerque or Santa Fe I suppose, but everything else makes sense. One or two weird ones don't get lumped in with the Hazeltons, Bensons, and Lordsburgs of the world.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2022, 02:04:14 PM
What's the problem with Missouri?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ilpt4u on July 11, 2022, 02:07:54 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2022, 02:04:14 PM
What's the problem with Missouri?
Tulsa in STL for I-44, then disappearing mostly in-state? That is about the most egregious, unless using "Illinois"  as a Control in Downtown STL for the approaches to the PSB and Stan Span bothers you
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: I-35 on July 11, 2022, 04:24:58 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 11, 2022, 02:07:54 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2022, 02:04:14 PM
What's the problem with Missouri?
Tulsa in STL for I-44, then disappearing mostly in-state? That is about the most egregious, unless using "Illinois"  as a Control in Downtown STL for the approaches to the PSB and Stan Span bothers you

Wasn't the reason for Tulsa being signed over Springfield, MO in the STL metro was to avoid confusion with Springfield, IL?  Maybe that's just a myth, but at least it makes sense. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on July 11, 2022, 04:43:36 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2022, 02:04:14 PM
What's the problem with Missouri?
Inconsistent control cities, and that's not just with I-44 mentioned earlier. When driving I-70 WB from St Louis to Kansas City, you'll see KC at first, but then Wentzville in most of St Charles County, then Columbia and some other cities before you'll see Kansas City listed again.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: andrepoiy on July 11, 2022, 05:03:36 PM
Ontario is also a prefer-in-province destination signer. Quebec signs "Toronto" as far out as near downtown Montreal (5 hours away), while Ontario doesn't sign Montreal until after Cornwall (1.5 hours away). Quebec signs the US border right outside Montreal, Ontario doesn't sign the US border until within a 1-hour radius of the border.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: rlb2024 on July 11, 2022, 05:08:36 PM
I always found it interesting that Illinois uses Memphis as a control city for I-57 at the junctions with I-94 and I-80 in Chicagoland, especially since I-57 doesn't go within 100 miles of Memphis.  Granted, I-57 is the primary route you would take to get from Chicago to Memphis but still . . .
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on July 11, 2022, 05:15:46 PM
Interstate highway speaking, I don't know if I think any state is the worst or any state is the best.  It all really depends on the type of drive you are on.  If you are driving to more regional places, then the smaller/closer control cities are best, but if you are driving cross country, the bigger control cites are the best.  Personally, being someone who studies maps, most of the regional control cities I know, so no big deal there, but if I am on a long haul and I am trying to navigate big city to big city, I want the father out control cities.  I like Arizona's use of very far control cities. 

What does bother me is why AASHTO/FHWA didn't sit down and mark out the control cites so there is some consistency between the states (here is Control City A, then Control City B; there will be no Control City A.1).  It really keeps Indio, Desert Cities and Blythe being used throughout California without a mention of Phoenix. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on July 11, 2022, 05:17:55 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 11, 2022, 05:15:46 PM
What does bother me is why AASHTO/FHWA didn't sit down and mark out the control cites so there is some consistency between the states (here is Control City A, then Control City B; there will be no Control City A.1).  It really keeps Indio, Desert Cities and Blythe being used throughout California without a mention of Phoenix.

They did. (https://traffic.transportation.org/interstate-control-cities/)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: dvferyance on July 11, 2022, 05:23:16 PM
I-39 Wausau NB Madison SB fine
I-41 Fond Du Lac, Green Bay NB Appleton Milwaukee SB fine. Wisdot wants Milwaukee to Green Bay traffic to use I-43
I-43 Milwaukee Green Bay NB Milwaukee Beloit SB fine
I-90 Madison, Janesville Chicago EB fine Janesville, Madison Wis Dells Tomah La Crosse WB. Now I don't like they replaced Madison with Janesville around Beloit given Janesville is close and Madison is bigger and is the capitol. The Dells is small but it is a destination. Tomah is small but I get because it runs with I-94. La Crosse is fine.
I-94 Eau Claire Madison Milwaukee Chicago EB fine Milwaukee Madison WisDells Tomah St Paul Hudson WB. I would prefer Minneapolis over St Paul since it's the bigger of the 2 twin cities or simply twin cities. Hudson are you kidding me? Why change it as you get closer to St Paul? Hudson is like a twin cities exburb.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on July 11, 2022, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 11, 2022, 05:17:55 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 11, 2022, 05:15:46 PM
What does bother me is why AASHTO/FHWA didn't sit down and mark out the control cites so there is some consistency between the states (here is Control City A, then Control City B; there will be no Control City A.1).  It really keeps Indio, Desert Cities and Blythe being used throughout California without a mention of Phoenix.

They did. (https://traffic.transportation.org/interstate-control-cities/)

Yes, they did, but they also said states, it's up to you. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on July 11, 2022, 05:58:37 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 11, 2022, 05:17:55 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 11, 2022, 05:15:46 PM
What does bother me is why AASHTO/FHWA didn't sit down and mark out the control cites so there is some consistency between the states (here is Control City A, then Control City B; there will be no Control City A.1).  It really keeps Indio, Desert Cities and Blythe being used throughout California without a mention of Phoenix.

They did. (https://traffic.transportation.org/interstate-control-cities/)
I like how OhioDOT just ignores an entire row (aka just silliness probably written in this list by PennDOT) and go straight to NYC from Youngstown. Shows that this list isn't strictly followed by every state.
(https://i.imgur.com/pfzmTQH.png)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on July 11, 2022, 06:51:17 PM
MnDOT corrected their most egregious violation, which was the complete omission of control cities on 94 coming into Maple Grove. Bloomington is important enough to get a mention on 494, but for whatever reason still doesn't.

Some people get upset that random suburbs aren't listed on signs, but one thing I noticed about MSP compared to other metros is that suburbs here seem less self-contained, so maybe there's no point to putting St. Louis Park or Woodbury on a sign.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: jaehak on July 11, 2022, 09:51:03 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 11, 2022, 01:44:19 PM
Quote from: jaehak on July 11, 2022, 01:36:59 PM
Worst: Colorado, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, North Carolina, Missouri

Other than Limon, which has been discussed here ad nauseum, is there anything that egregious? South of Pueblo could be Albuquerque or Santa Fe I suppose, but everything else makes sense. One or two weird ones don't get lumped in with the Hazeltons, Bensons, and Lordsburgs of the world.

Limon alone is reason enough- you see signage for it on literally every Colorado interstate. When you add in Fort Morgan, inconsistent signage on east 76, Trinidad, Raton, and signing Fort Collins over Denver south out of Wyoming, you get a bottom five control city state.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: interstate73 on July 11, 2022, 09:58:47 PM
New Jersey's have started getting bad with their recent installs, pretty much just defaulting to the municipality the route terminates in no matter how little sense it makes. 280 East at Eisenhower is signed for friggin Kearny instead of, ya kno, the state's largest city that the route serves beforehand. Maybe have Newark and Kearny, but omitting Newark entirely is just heinous. Make it make sense...
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on July 11, 2022, 10:14:14 PM
Quote from: jaehak on July 11, 2022, 09:51:03 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 11, 2022, 01:44:19 PM
Quote from: jaehak on July 11, 2022, 01:36:59 PM
Worst: Colorado, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, North Carolina, Missouri

Other than Limon, which has been discussed here ad nauseum, is there anything that egregious? South of Pueblo could be Albuquerque or Santa Fe I suppose, but everything else makes sense. One or two weird ones don't get lumped in with the Hazeltons, Bensons, and Lordsburgs of the world.

Limon alone is reason enough- you see signage for it on literally every Colorado interstate. When you add in Fort Morgan, inconsistent signage on east 76, Trinidad, Raton, and signing Fort Collins over Denver south out of Wyoming, you get a bottom five control city state.

God forbid they follow AASHTO guidelines I guess.  I particularly don't understand your dislike of Fort Collins. It's the closest big city to Cheyenne. Do you dislike having Cheyenne be a control city? It has about 15% the population of the FoCo/Greeley area.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: amroad17 on July 11, 2022, 10:50:47 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 11, 2022, 05:58:37 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 11, 2022, 05:17:55 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 11, 2022, 05:15:46 PM
What does bother me is why AASHTO/FHWA didn't sit down and mark out the control cites so there is some consistency between the states (here is Control City A, then Control City B; there will be no Control City A.1).  It really keeps Indio, Desert Cities and Blythe being used throughout California without a mention of Phoenix.

They did. (https://traffic.transportation.org/interstate-control-cities/)
I like how OhioDOT just ignores an entire row (aka just silliness probably written in this list by PennDOT) and go straight to NYC from Youngstown. Shows that this list isn't strictly followed by every state.
(https://i.imgur.com/pfzmTQH.png)
Pennsylvania (and New Jersey) should use these control cities...
I-80 (EB): DuBois, Williamsport, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, New York
I-80 (WB): Stroudsburg, Hazleton, Williamsport, DuBois, Sharon, Youngstown

No Delaware Water Gap should ever be used as a main control point.  A supplemental one, yes.  So, from the I-80/I-287 interchange in Parsippany, the control point for I-80 West should be Stroudsburg, PA--not Del Water Gap.

The I-376/I-80 interchange should use DuBois for I-80 East instead of Mercer.

I-95 should not have Benson (NC), Chester (PA), or even Kittery (ME) on the list.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 11, 2022, 11:23:26 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 11, 2022, 01:20:51 PM

At least I-25 get an El Paso or two once you get to Las Cruces. 

Also, that one oddball "ARIZONA" for westbound I-10 at the US-70 intersection in west Las Cruces.

However, El Paso makes it onto many mileage signs on SB 25 between Albuquerque and Las Cruces.  As a matter of fact, the first two mileage signs for El Paso are just north of Albuquerque.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 12, 2022, 12:35:32 AM
QuoteColorado, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, North Carolina, Missouri

Despite some control cites on New Mexico's interstates are pathetic, there are some control cities on its non-interstate highways that are actually excellent choices.  NM 502 going east out of Los Alamos is signed for Santa Fe, even though the highway's eastern terminus is at US 84/285 in Pojoaque (it's not a control city on either highway).  Santa Fe is the most logical choice because traffic is headed in that direction as there is nothing in Pojoaque — another podunk town and Santa Fe is much much bigger.  US 84/285 signs Española going north from Santa Fe.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 12, 2022, 01:03:42 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on July 11, 2022, 10:50:47 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 11, 2022, 05:58:37 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 11, 2022, 05:17:55 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 11, 2022, 05:15:46 PM
What does bother me is why AASHTO/FHWA didn't sit down and mark out the control cites so there is some consistency between the states (here is Control City A, then Control City B; there will be no Control City A.1).  It really keeps Indio, Desert Cities and Blythe being used throughout California without a mention of Phoenix.

They did. (https://traffic.transportation.org/interstate-control-cities/)
I like how OhioDOT just ignores an entire row (aka just silliness probably written in this list by PennDOT) and go straight to NYC from Youngstown. Shows that this list isn't strictly followed by every state.
(https://i.imgur.com/pfzmTQH.png)
Pennsylvania (and New Jersey) should use these control cities...
I-80 (EB): DuBois, Williamsport, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, New York
I-80 (WB): Stroudsburg, Hazleton, Williamsport, DuBois, Sharon, Youngstown

No Delaware Water Gap should ever be used as a main control point.  A supplemental one, yes.  So, from the I-80/I-287 interchange in Parsippany, the control point for I-80 West should be Stroudsburg, PA--not Del Water Gap.

The I-376/I-80 interchange should use DuBois for I-80 East instead of Mercer.

I-95 should not have Benson (NC), Chester (PA), or even Kittery (ME) on the list.
Del Water Gap is used because of the lack of big cities in PA, as well as it being a recognizable landmark. Nobody has ever heard of Stroudsburg. What other options do they have? Cleveland?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on July 12, 2022, 01:52:56 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 12, 2022, 01:03:42 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on July 11, 2022, 10:50:47 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 11, 2022, 05:58:37 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 11, 2022, 05:17:55 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 11, 2022, 05:15:46 PM
What does bother me is why AASHTO/FHWA didn't sit down and mark out the control cites so there is some consistency between the states (here is Control City A, then Control City B; there will be no Control City A.1).  It really keeps Indio, Desert Cities and Blythe being used throughout California without a mention of Phoenix.

They did. (https://traffic.transportation.org/interstate-control-cities/)
I like how OhioDOT just ignores an entire row (aka just silliness probably written in this list by PennDOT) and go straight to NYC from Youngstown. Shows that this list isn't strictly followed by every state.
(https://i.imgur.com/pfzmTQH.png)
Pennsylvania (and New Jersey) should use these control cities...
I-80 (EB): DuBois, Williamsport, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, New York
I-80 (WB): Stroudsburg, Hazleton, Williamsport, DuBois, Sharon, Youngstown

No Delaware Water Gap should ever be used as a main control point.  A supplemental one, yes.  So, from the I-80/I-287 interchange in Parsippany, the control point for I-80 West should be Stroudsburg, PA--not Del Water Gap.

The I-376/I-80 interchange should use DuBois for I-80 East instead of Mercer.

I-95 should not have Benson (NC), Chester (PA), or even Kittery (ME) on the list.
Del Water Gap is used because of the lack of big cities in PA, as well as it being a recognizable landmark. Nobody has ever heard of Stroudsburg. What other options do they have? Cleveland?
I'm still wondering why I-80 gets so close, yet bypasses State College. It could've been by far the most relevant city on I-80's route between Youngstown and the NYC metro area.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: interstate73 on July 12, 2022, 10:57:24 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 12, 2022, 01:03:42 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on July 11, 2022, 10:50:47 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 11, 2022, 05:58:37 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 11, 2022, 05:17:55 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 11, 2022, 05:15:46 PM
What does bother me is why AASHTO/FHWA didn't sit down and mark out the control cites so there is some consistency between the states (here is Control City A, then Control City B; there will be no Control City A.1).  It really keeps Indio, Desert Cities and Blythe being used throughout California without a mention of Phoenix.

They did. (https://traffic.transportation.org/interstate-control-cities/)
I like how OhioDOT just ignores an entire row (aka just silliness probably written in this list by PennDOT) and go straight to NYC from Youngstown. Shows that this list isn't strictly followed by every state.
(https://i.imgur.com/pfzmTQH.png)
Pennsylvania (and New Jersey) should use these control cities...
I-80 (EB): DuBois, Williamsport, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, New York
I-80 (WB): Stroudsburg, Hazleton, Williamsport, DuBois, Sharon, Youngstown

No Delaware Water Gap should ever be used as a main control point.  A supplemental one, yes.  So, from the I-80/I-287 interchange in Parsippany, the control point for I-80 West should be Stroudsburg, PA--not Del Water Gap.

The I-376/I-80 interchange should use DuBois for I-80 East instead of Mercer.

I-95 should not have Benson (NC), Chester (PA), or even Kittery (ME) on the list.
Del Water Gap is used because of the lack of big cities in PA, as well as it being a recognizable landmark. Nobody has ever heard of Stroudsburg. What other options do they have? Cleveland?

I would be in support of Scranton for 80 West personally, since it's the main route between NYC Metro and the Wyoming Valley and there are many NY/NJ expats who attend college in that area. But the next city of note 80 enters the city limits of is... South Bend, Indiana. Not a whole lot of great choices going out that way since 80 does a phenomenal job of dodging any notable city it comes remotely close to!
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on July 12, 2022, 11:12:47 AM
I wonder why west of Scotrun, PA and all the way to Youngstown,OH it has no consistent US routes? I mean really why they did not build the freeway along the US 6 corridor between Scranton and NE OH? US 6 really was the main route across northern PA before I-80 and I'm sure it lost a lot of traffic when I-80 finally opened despite it being over 25 miles apart. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SEWIGuy on July 12, 2022, 11:20:51 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 12, 2022, 11:12:47 AM
I wonder why west of Scotrun, PA and all the way to Youngstown,OH it has no consistent US routes? I mean really why they did not build the freeway along the US 6 corridor between Scranton and NE OH? US 6 really was the main route across northern PA before I-80 and I'm sure it lost a lot of traffic when I-80 finally opened despite it being over 25 miles apart. 

Didn't Pennsylvania already have the basic I-80 route mapped out for a northern Turnpike or something like that?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: jaehak on July 12, 2022, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 11, 2022, 10:14:14 PM
Quote from: jaehak on July 11, 2022, 09:51:03 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 11, 2022, 01:44:19 PM
Quote from: jaehak on July 11, 2022, 01:36:59 PM
Worst: Colorado, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, North Carolina, Missouri

Other than Limon, which has been discussed here ad nauseum, is there anything that egregious? South of Pueblo could be Albuquerque or Santa Fe I suppose, but everything else makes sense. One or two weird ones don't get lumped in with the Hazeltons, Bensons, and Lordsburgs of the world.

Limon alone is reason enough- you see signage for it on literally every Colorado interstate. When you add in Fort Morgan, inconsistent signage on east 76, Trinidad, Raton, and signing Fort Collins over Denver south out of Wyoming, you get a bottom five control city state.

God forbid they follow AASHTO guidelines I guess.  I particularly don't understand your dislike of Fort Collins. It's the closest big city to Cheyenne. Do you dislike having Cheyenne be a control city? It has about 15% the population of the FoCo/Greeley area.

Fort Collins is fine northbound, but southbound it should be Denver. It isn't that much farther, and it's much larger, more famous, the state capital, multiple interstate junctions, and more useful for long distance traffic and a much larger traffic driver. Cheyenne makes total sense as a control city, no problem with it whatsoever, but signing Fort Collins north out of Denver is the right move, as is signing Cheyenne north from FoCo.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:33:40 PM
Quote from: jaehak on July 12, 2022, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 11, 2022, 10:14:14 PM
Quote from: jaehak on July 11, 2022, 09:51:03 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 11, 2022, 01:44:19 PM
Quote from: jaehak on July 11, 2022, 01:36:59 PM
Worst: Colorado, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, North Carolina, Missouri

Other than Limon, which has been discussed here ad nauseum, is there anything that egregious? South of Pueblo could be Albuquerque or Santa Fe I suppose, but everything else makes sense. One or two weird ones don't get lumped in with the Hazeltons, Bensons, and Lordsburgs of the world.

Limon alone is reason enough- you see signage for it on literally every Colorado interstate. When you add in Fort Morgan, inconsistent signage on east 76, Trinidad, Raton, and signing Fort Collins over Denver south out of Wyoming, you get a bottom five control city state.

God forbid they follow AASHTO guidelines I guess.  I particularly don't understand your dislike of Fort Collins. It's the closest big city to Cheyenne. Do you dislike having Cheyenne be a control city? It has about 15% the population of the FoCo/Greeley area.

Fort Collins is fine northbound, but southbound it should be Denver. It isn't that much farther, and it's much larger, more famous, the state capital, multiple interstate junctions, and more useful for long distance traffic and a much larger traffic driver. Cheyenne makes total sense as a control city, no problem with it whatsoever, but signing Fort Collins north out of Denver is the right move, as is signing Cheyenne north from FoCo.

What, out of curiosity, do you propose in lieu of Fort Morgan? I'm assuming Omaha or something of the like despite the fact that I-76 doesn't go within 350 miles of it?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hotdogPi on July 12, 2022, 01:36:33 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:33:40 PM
What, out of curiosity, do you propose in lieu of Fort Morgan? I'm assuming Omaha or something of the like despite the fact that I-76 doesn't go within 350 miles of it?

I think a control state of Nebraska would be fine. Even for those intending to go to Scottsbluff, it wouldn't be an issue; from destinations where I-76 is not optimal, they wouldn't see the signs on I-76 to begin with.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:38:36 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 12, 2022, 01:36:33 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:33:40 PM
What, out of curiosity, do you propose in lieu of Fort Morgan? I'm assuming Omaha or something of the like despite the fact that I-76 doesn't go within 350 miles of it?

I think a control state of Nebraska would be fine. Even for those intending to go to Scottsbluff, it wouldn't be an issue; from destinations where I-76 is not optimal, they wouldn't see the signs on I-76 to begin with.

I'm on record as hating the "control state" cities.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on July 12, 2022, 01:49:13 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:38:36 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 12, 2022, 01:36:33 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:33:40 PM
What, out of curiosity, do you propose in lieu of Fort Morgan? I'm assuming Omaha or something of the like despite the fact that I-76 doesn't go within 350 miles of it?

I think a control state of Nebraska would be fine. Even for those intending to go to Scottsbluff, it wouldn't be an issue; from destinations where I-76 is not optimal, they wouldn't see the signs on I-76 to begin with.

I'm on record as hating the "control state" cities.

I hate them, but they crack me up!
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:56:11 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:38:36 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 12, 2022, 01:36:33 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:33:40 PM
What, out of curiosity, do you propose in lieu of Fort Morgan? I'm assuming Omaha or something of the like despite the fact that I-76 doesn't go within 350 miles of it?

I think a control state of Nebraska would be fine. Even for those intending to go to Scottsbluff, it wouldn't be an issue; from destinations where I-76 is not optimal, they wouldn't see the signs on I-76 to begin with.

I'm on record as hating the "control state" cities.

And for Colorado's only other use of a control state (I-70 being signed for Utah in and around Grand Junction), I would much prefer if they used Moab (despite I-70 not serving it directly) because at least people have heard of it. Salina would have been better than Green River when that was used too.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hbelkins on July 12, 2022, 02:32:46 PM
Quote from: rlb2024 on July 11, 2022, 05:08:36 PM
I always found it interesting that Illinois uses Memphis as a control city for I-57 at the junctions with I-94 and I-80 in Chicagoland, especially since I-57 doesn't go within 100 miles of Memphis.  Granted, I-57 is the primary route you would take to get from Chicago to Memphis but still . . .

Sikeston would be a logical control, because it's a major interstate junction and the (current) terminus of I-57. But you'd probably end up with Sikeston being signed on I-57 and Memphis being signed on I-55.

Thread idea...
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SEWIGuy on July 12, 2022, 02:50:10 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 11, 2022, 05:23:16 PM
I-41 Fond Du Lac, Green Bay NB Appleton Milwaukee SB fine. Wisdot wants Milwaukee to Green Bay traffic to use I-43


It's not so much WIDOT "wanting" traffic to use I-43. It's clearly the better route between the two cities.  In fact, I would say that if you are southeast of a line from about Waukesha to Germantown, I-43 to Green Bay is preferable to I-41.  It just bends so far to the west to get "around" Lake Winnebago.

Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SEWIGuy on July 12, 2022, 02:51:54 PM
Quote from: rlb2024 on July 11, 2022, 05:08:36 PM
I always found it interesting that Illinois uses Memphis as a control city for I-57 at the junctions with I-94 and I-80 in Chicagoland, especially since I-57 doesn't go within 100 miles of Memphis.  Granted, I-57 is the primary route you would take to get from Chicago to Memphis but still . . .


I have always thought they should use Champaign / Urbana being the home of the University of Illinois, and a decent sized urban area in its own right.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on July 13, 2022, 12:03:01 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 12, 2022, 02:51:54 PM
Quote from: rlb2024 on July 11, 2022, 05:08:36 PM
I always found it interesting that Illinois uses Memphis as a control city for I-57 at the junctions with I-94 and I-80 in Chicagoland, especially since I-57 doesn't go within 100 miles of Memphis.  Granted, I-57 is the primary route you would take to get from Chicago to Memphis but still . . .


I have always thought they should use Champaign / Urbana being the home of the University of Illinois, and a decent sized urban area in its own right.
I agree. But at least they use Champaign as a secondary south of Kankakee.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on July 13, 2022, 12:06:56 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:38:36 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 12, 2022, 01:36:33 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:33:40 PM
What, out of curiosity, do you propose in lieu of Fort Morgan? I'm assuming Omaha or something of the like despite the fact that I-76 doesn't go within 350 miles of it?

I think a control state of Nebraska would be fine. Even for those intending to go to Scottsbluff, it wouldn't be an issue; from destinations where I-76 is not optimal, they wouldn't see the signs on I-76 to begin with.

I'm on record as hating the "control state" cities.
Nebraska in this case would be ok but not wild about it. I got no problem with Ft Morgan but if not that, North Platte or Kearney would be the next small cities of importance. Omaha and Lincoln are way too far to use since 76 ends well over 300 miles from them near Julesburg.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: US 89 on July 13, 2022, 12:26:30 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:56:11 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:38:36 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 12, 2022, 01:36:33 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:33:40 PM
What, out of curiosity, do you propose in lieu of Fort Morgan? I'm assuming Omaha or something of the like despite the fact that I-76 doesn't go within 350 miles of it?

I think a control state of Nebraska would be fine. Even for those intending to go to Scottsbluff, it wouldn't be an issue; from destinations where I-76 is not optimal, they wouldn't see the signs on I-76 to begin with.

I'm on record as hating the "control state" cities.

And for Colorado's only other use of a control state (I-70 being signed for Utah in and around Grand Junction), I would much prefer if they used Moab (despite I-70 not serving it directly) because at least people have heard of it. Salina would have been better than Green River when that was used too.

That one's harder than it looks at first glance. The problem is that over half of westbound traffic exits on US 6 towards Price and Salt Lake City, which means anything on 70 west of that split isn't exactly an ideal candidate. Green River is the only town in Utah before that split, and because it's so isolated, most people have probably stopped there for services or at least know where it is. Highlighting it as a control might even serve to emphasize the emptiness of that area 70 goes through.

If you're going to use something on 70 west of Green River, Richfield would be an even better choice than Salina. It's only 15 miles past Salina and has over three times the population, with just about everything you'd want from a regional hub in the inland west (including a Walmart). I've never thought of using Moab before, but it is way too far off I-70 (over 30 miles) for me to really get on board.




Quote from: hobsini2 on July 13, 2022, 12:06:56 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:38:36 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 12, 2022, 01:36:33 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:33:40 PM
What, out of curiosity, do you propose in lieu of Fort Morgan? I'm assuming Omaha or something of the like despite the fact that I-76 doesn't go within 350 miles of it?

I think a control state of Nebraska would be fine. Even for those intending to go to Scottsbluff, it wouldn't be an issue; from destinations where I-76 is not optimal, they wouldn't see the signs on I-76 to begin with.

I'm on record as hating the "control state" cities.
Nebraska in this case would be ok but not wild about it. I got no problem with Ft Morgan but if not that, North Platte or Kearney would be the next small cities of importance. Omaha and Lincoln are way too far to use since 76 ends well over 300 miles from them near Julesburg.

Who cares where 76 ends? The traffic pattern is east on 80. I-84 in Utah uses Cheyenne as a control city where it splits from I-15 (before reverting to more local controls at smaller interchanges). I would prefer something closer be used instead - maybe Rock Springs - but the same applies to 80 in SLC. I'm not going to dispute Cheyenne on 84 simply because the route ends too soon.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hotdogPi on July 13, 2022, 12:31:43 PM
And for those following the signs for Green River UT thinking they're going toward Green River WY? (Or avoiding it – "I'm not trying to go toward Wyoming, so this is the wrong way.")
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on July 13, 2022, 12:38:17 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 13, 2022, 12:31:43 PM
And for those following the signs for Green River UT thinking they're going toward Green River WY? (Or avoiding it – "I'm not trying to go toward Wyoming, so this is the wrong way.")

Thankfully no one goes to Green River, WY.  :)

(I have passed through both on I-80 and coming back from Flaming Gorge. It's not so bad by Wyoming standards.)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best? It too
Post by: jaehak on July 13, 2022, 12:44:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 12, 2022, 01:36:33 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:33:40 PM
What, out of curiosity, do you propose in lieu of Fort Morgan? I'm assuming Omaha or something of the like despite the fact that I-76 doesn't go within 350 miles of it?

I think a control state of Nebraska would be fine. Even for those intending to go to Scottsbluff, it wouldn't be an issue; from destinations where I-76 is not optimal, they wouldn't see the signs on I-76 to begin with.

Agree. Nebraska is the move. Omaha IS far, and Lincoln is a legitimate control city and slightly closer, but too small to be signed from Denver from so far away. Grand Island, Kearney, North Platte, and Ogallala are increasingly closer and also decreasingly smaller, and have no business being signed from a major city like Denver.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on July 13, 2022, 01:12:49 PM
US 89, fair point. Cheyenne makes sense for 84 even though it's not on 84. I suppose one could make the case for putting Las Vegas on 70 after Grand Jct.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on July 13, 2022, 01:15:08 PM
Quote from: jaehak on July 13, 2022, 12:44:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 12, 2022, 01:36:33 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:33:40 PM
What, out of curiosity, do you propose in lieu of Fort Morgan? I'm assuming Omaha or something of the like despite the fact that I-76 doesn't go within 350 miles of it?

I think a control state of Nebraska would be fine. Even for those intending to go to Scottsbluff, it wouldn't be an issue; from destinations where I-76 is not optimal, they wouldn't see the signs on I-76 to begin with.

Agree. Nebraska is the move. Omaha IS far, and Lincoln is a legitimate control city and slightly closer, but too small to be signed from Denver from so far away. Grand Island, Kearney, North Platte, and Ogallala are increasingly closer and also decreasingly smaller, and have no business being signed from a major city like Denver.
From Denver to about Ft Morgan, Nebraska can be used. But what do you do when you get to CO 71 at Brush? That goes into Nebraska too. This is why I prefer control cities to control states.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on July 13, 2022, 01:23:22 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 13, 2022, 01:15:08 PM
Quote from: jaehak on July 13, 2022, 12:44:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 12, 2022, 01:36:33 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:33:40 PM
What, out of curiosity, do you propose in lieu of Fort Morgan? I'm assuming Omaha or something of the like despite the fact that I-76 doesn't go within 350 miles of it?

I think a control state of Nebraska would be fine. Even for those intending to go to Scottsbluff, it wouldn't be an issue; from destinations where I-76 is not optimal, they wouldn't see the signs on I-76 to begin with.

Agree. Nebraska is the move. Omaha IS far, and Lincoln is a legitimate control city and slightly closer, but too small to be signed from Denver from so far away. Grand Island, Kearney, North Platte, and Ogallala are increasingly closer and also decreasingly smaller, and have no business being signed from a major city like Denver.
From Denver to about Ft Morgan, Nebraska can be used. But what do you do when you get to CO 71 at Brush? That goes into Nebraska too. This is why I prefer control cities to control states.

Agreed, and it's stupid to use Nebraska for a while, and then when you get closer to Nebraska, you stop using Nebraska. Any other place that does this as precedent?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on July 13, 2022, 01:51:37 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 13, 2022, 01:23:22 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 13, 2022, 01:15:08 PM
Quote from: jaehak on July 13, 2022, 12:44:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 12, 2022, 01:36:33 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:33:40 PM
What, out of curiosity, do you propose in lieu of Fort Morgan? I'm assuming Omaha or something of the like despite the fact that I-76 doesn't go within 350 miles of it?

I think a control state of Nebraska would be fine. Even for those intending to go to Scottsbluff, it wouldn't be an issue; from destinations where I-76 is not optimal, they wouldn't see the signs on I-76 to begin with.

Agree. Nebraska is the move. Omaha IS far, and Lincoln is a legitimate control city and slightly closer, but too small to be signed from Denver from so far away. Grand Island, Kearney, North Platte, and Ogallala are increasingly closer and also decreasingly smaller, and have no business being signed from a major city like Denver.
From Denver to about Ft Morgan, Nebraska can be used. But what do you do when you get to CO 71 at Brush? That goes into Nebraska too. This is why I prefer control cities to control states.

Agreed, and it's stupid to use Nebraska for a while, and then when you get closer to Nebraska, you stop using Nebraska. Any other place that does this as precedent?
In Chicago, it makes sense to use Wisconsin until the Edens Jct and then use Milwaukee for 94 and Rockford for 90. But that's the only instance I can think of where it is used like that.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 13, 2022, 08:07:54 PM
QuoteLas Vegas on 70 after Grand Jct.

I'd make an argument that St George is a better choice to use than Las Vegas on I-70 west after Grand Junction, since that's the next biggest city nearest to the route's western terminus.  Las Vegas is too far as it's about 240 miles from the junction of I-15/I-70.  In that case, St. George would also have to be signed on I-15 south but as a secondary control city.

I think "indirect control cities" more often make the most sense if the city being signed is a short distance beyond the route's terminus, especially if traffic continues going in the same direction when defaulting onto the adjacent route (thereby creating a straight shot from City A to City B).  For instance, I-8 east within Arizona signing Tucson is a very logical move since traffic defaults onto I-10 east at the route's terminus; and Tucson is only 60 miles from the I-8/I-10 junction.  And if only New Mexico signed interstate control cities similar to how Arizona does, I-25 south signing El Paso as the southbound control city from Albuquerque would also be the logical choice since El Paso is only 45 miles from Las Cruces.

In the case with I-76 in Colorado and Nebraska, it's basically a feeder route connecting to I-80.  And for this reason I would think Omaha is the best choice to use as the EB control city from Denver; traffic is headed in that direction.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on July 13, 2022, 08:11:57 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 13, 2022, 08:07:54 PM
QuoteLas Vegas on 70 after Grand Jct.

I'd make an argument that St George is a better choice to use than Las Vegas on I-70 west after Grand Junction, since that's the next biggest city nearest to the route's western terminus.  Las Vegas is too far as it's about 240 miles from the junction of I-15/I-70.  In that case, St. George would also have to be signed on I-15 south but as a secondary control city.
I prefer Las Vegas. Much more well-known than St George, even though the latter is the most notable population center in southern Utah. I think that if you're going to put a city past a route's terminus as a control, it's better to use one that everyone has heard of. Another example is I-40 using Los Angeles instead of San Bernardino. Also, 240 miles isn't that far compared to some other examples. About the distance from St Louis to both Indianapolis and Kansas City on I-70, which are both control cities in the STL area.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Brandon on July 13, 2022, 08:33:37 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 12, 2022, 01:03:42 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on July 11, 2022, 10:50:47 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 11, 2022, 05:58:37 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 11, 2022, 05:17:55 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 11, 2022, 05:15:46 PM
What does bother me is why AASHTO/FHWA didn't sit down and mark out the control cites so there is some consistency between the states (here is Control City A, then Control City B; there will be no Control City A.1).  It really keeps Indio, Desert Cities and Blythe being used throughout California without a mention of Phoenix.

They did. (https://traffic.transportation.org/interstate-control-cities/)
I like how OhioDOT just ignores an entire row (aka just silliness probably written in this list by PennDOT) and go straight to NYC from Youngstown. Shows that this list isn't strictly followed by every state.
(https://i.imgur.com/pfzmTQH.png)
Pennsylvania (and New Jersey) should use these control cities...
I-80 (EB): DuBois, Williamsport, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, New York
I-80 (WB): Stroudsburg, Hazleton, Williamsport, DuBois, Sharon, Youngstown

No Delaware Water Gap should ever be used as a main control point.  A supplemental one, yes.  So, from the I-80/I-287 interchange in Parsippany, the control point for I-80 West should be Stroudsburg, PA--not Del Water Gap.

The I-376/I-80 interchange should use DuBois for I-80 East instead of Mercer.

I-95 should not have Benson (NC), Chester (PA), or even Kittery (ME) on the list.
Del Water Gap is used because of the lack of big cities in PA, as well as it being a recognizable landmark. Nobody has ever heard of Stroudsburg. What other options do they have? Cleveland?

"Ohio" might work just fine.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: jaehak on July 13, 2022, 10:38:48 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 13, 2022, 01:23:22 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 13, 2022, 01:15:08 PM
Quote from: jaehak on July 13, 2022, 12:44:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 12, 2022, 01:36:33 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:33:40 PM
What, out of curiosity, do you propose in lieu of Fort Morgan? I'm assuming Omaha or something of the like despite the fact that I-76 doesn't go within 350 miles of it?

I think a control state of Nebraska would be fine. Even for those intending to go to Scottsbluff, it wouldn't be an issue; from destinations where I-76 is not optimal, they wouldn't see the signs on I-76 to begin with.

Agree. Nebraska is the move. Omaha IS far, and Lincoln is a legitimate control city and slightly closer, but too small to be signed from Denver from so far away. Grand Island, Kearney, North Platte, and Ogallala are increasingly closer and also decreasingly smaller, and have no business being signed from a major city like Denver.
From Denver to about Ft Morgan, Nebraska can be used. But what do you do when you get to CO 71 at Brush? That goes into Nebraska too. This is why I prefer control cities to control states.

Agreed, and it's stupid to use Nebraska for a while, and then when you get closer to Nebraska, you stop using Nebraska. Any other place that does this as precedent?

Illinois signs Indiana right to the border and Wisconsin to almost the border on 90/39. So not unprecedented. Yes CO 71 goes to NE, but I'm guessing something like 95% of Nebraska's population can be better reached on 76/80. Sign it all the way. Or sign it in Denver on overheads and junctions and then alternate between Lincoln and Omaha on mileage signs once past 470.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on July 14, 2022, 09:54:34 AM
Quote from: jaehak on July 13, 2022, 10:38:48 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 13, 2022, 01:23:22 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 13, 2022, 01:15:08 PM
Quote from: jaehak on July 13, 2022, 12:44:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 12, 2022, 01:36:33 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 12, 2022, 01:33:40 PM
What, out of curiosity, do you propose in lieu of Fort Morgan? I'm assuming Omaha or something of the like despite the fact that I-76 doesn't go within 350 miles of it?

I think a control state of Nebraska would be fine. Even for those intending to go to Scottsbluff, it wouldn't be an issue; from destinations where I-76 is not optimal, they wouldn't see the signs on I-76 to begin with.

Agree. Nebraska is the move. Omaha IS far, and Lincoln is a legitimate control city and slightly closer, but too small to be signed from Denver from so far away. Grand Island, Kearney, North Platte, and Ogallala are increasingly closer and also decreasingly smaller, and have no business being signed from a major city like Denver.
From Denver to about Ft Morgan, Nebraska can be used. But what do you do when you get to CO 71 at Brush? That goes into Nebraska too. This is why I prefer control cities to control states.

Agreed, and it's stupid to use Nebraska for a while, and then when you get closer to Nebraska, you stop using Nebraska. Any other place that does this as precedent?

Illinois signs Indiana right to the border and Wisconsin to almost the border on 90/39. So not unprecedented. Yes CO 71 goes to NE, but I'm guessing something like 95% of Nebraska's population can be better reached on 76/80. Sign it all the way. Or sign it in Denver on overheads and junctions and then alternate between Lincoln and Omaha on mileage signs once past 470.
I like that solution. If I was to do the mileage signs heading east on 76, here's how I would do them.
After 470: Colo 7, Ft Morgan, Omaha
After Colo 7: Hudson, Ft Morgan, North Platte
After Colo 52: Keenesburg, Ft Morgan, Lincoln
After Roggen: Wiggins, Ft Morgan, Omaha
After Wiggins: Ft Morgan, Brush, North Platte
After Ft Morgan: Brush, Sterling, Lincoln
After Brush: Atwood, Sterling, Omaha
After Colo 63: Sterling, Julesburg, Ogallala
After US 6: Crook, Julesburg, North Platte
After Colo 55: Sedgwick, Julesburg, Lincoln
After Colo 59: Ovid, Julesburg, Omaha
After Hwy 29: Julesburg, I-80, Ogallala
After US 385: I-80, Big Spring NE, North Platte

Interestingly enough, when 76 joins I-80, on the first mileage sign, North Platte is the control then Kearney then Lincoln. The only mention of Omaha is on the pull through at 80. Nebraska only puts the next exit and the next control city. No 3rd line.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on July 14, 2022, 09:59:14 AM
Still kinda hate it. I-76 doesn't go anywhere near Lincoln or Omaha. I also hate using states. Keeping as is is fine. I could argue for changing Fort Morgan to Sterling, that that's as far as I'd go. Past Sterling, sure, pick a Nebraskan city, probably North Platte.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on July 14, 2022, 11:50:05 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 14, 2022, 09:59:14 AM
Still kinda hate it. I-76 doesn't go anywhere near Lincoln or Omaha. I also hate using states. Keeping as is is fine. I could argue for changing Fort Morgan to Sterling, that that's as far as I'd go. Past Sterling, sure, pick a Nebraskan city, probably North Platte.

I love control cities on interstates that default on to other interstates.  I love El Paso for both I-20 and I-25, but I hate Weatherford for I-30.  Yes, I-20 actually takes you there, but it kind of acknowledges that I-30 is about to die.  Abilene would be better for I-30 west of downtown FT Worth as some signs do say.  I-12 has control cities on it's route, which I wish they would use something beyond.  Baton Rouge is good for westbound, but east bound shouldn't be Hamond then Slidel, it should be Gulfport or Biloxi like I-10 has.  I like New Orleans for southbound on both I-59 and I-55.  Yes, I am also a fan on I-40 in Arizona having Los Angeles as a control city despite it, nor the interstate it defaults onto going there. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 14, 2022, 12:36:07 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 13, 2022, 08:11:57 PM
I think that if you're going to put a city past a route's terminus as a control, it's better to use one that everyone has heard of. Another example is I-40 using Los Angeles instead of San Bernardino. Also, 240 miles isn't that far compared to some other examples. About the distance from St Louis to both Indianapolis and Kansas City on I-70, which are both control cities in the STL area.

I-40 west does sign Los Angeles from Flagstaff to the California border; but once you cross into California, Barstow becomes the control city since that's where I-40 ends at I-15.  I think CalTrans should use Los Angeles as the primary control on I-40 west because it's MUCH bigger and more well-known than Barstow (which should be used as a secondary).  I-15 should also be signed for Los Angeles instead of San Bernardino within California as well as from Las Vegas.

I don't necessarily agree with using smaller cities where the route ends as a control city when there is a much bigger and more well-known city close by on the adjacent route; the larger city should especially be signed in this case.  This is why I make the argument that El Paso should be the primary control city on I-25 south from Albuquerque, with Las Cruces being a secondary.  It is also the reason that NM 502 east from Los Alamos signs Santa Fe instead of Pojoaque.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on July 14, 2022, 12:52:46 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 14, 2022, 11:50:05 AM
I love control cities on interstates that default on to other interstates.  I love El Paso for both I-20 and I-25, but I hate Weatherford for I-30.  Yes, I-20 actually takes you there, but it kind of acknowledges that I-30 is about to die.

I guess that's my point. In the example above, I-76 isn't about to die. It's just getting started.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Henry on July 14, 2022, 01:07:41 PM
Count me in as another anti-"control state" person. As a native of Chicago, I really dislike the practices on I-80, I-90 and I-94 (plus I-294). The following should be used as control cities:

I-80: Toledo, Quad Cities (Moline, preferably)
I-90: Gary (although I do like that Rockford is already signed for WB)
I-94 and I-294: Detroit, Milwaukee (to mirror the signing of Chicago in these respective cities)

I-55 and I-57 are fine, as they show St. Louis and Memphis as their destinations. While I-88 to Aurora is also fine, I'd like to see a slightly larger destination added, like Moline where it meets I-88 on the western end.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 14, 2022, 01:54:28 PM
Quote from: Henry on July 14, 2022, 01:07:41 PM
Count me in as another anti-"control state" person. As a native of Chicago, I really dislike the practices on I-80, I-90 and I-94 (plus I-294). The following should be used as control cities:

I-80: Toledo, Quad Cities (Moline, preferably)
I-90: Gary (although I do like that Rockford is already signed for WB)
I-94 and I-294: Detroit, Milwaukee (to mirror the signing of Chicago in these respective cities)

I-55 and I-57 are fine, as they show St. Louis and Memphis as their destinations. While I-88 to Aurora is also fine, I'd like to see a slightly larger destination added, like Moline where it meets I-88 on the western end.

So any way you sign control cities for I-294 south, I-94 east and I-90 east creates problems.

Traffic heading into Indiana either via the Borman or the Toll Road is going to scatter amongst I-65 south, I-94 east and the eastbound Toll Road upon reaching Gary/Lake Station, so using only Detroit on I-94 or only Toledo on I-90 as a control city is problematic.

Using Gary is the most accurate way to sign those routes since they all go there, but Gary carries such a negative connotation and most traffic is not actually going to Gary.

Using Indiana provides accuracy without the negative connotation of Gary but is of course much more vague.

Using all of Detroit/Toledo/Indianapolis would be fully informative but cumbersome.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on July 14, 2022, 02:06:41 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 14, 2022, 12:36:07 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 13, 2022, 08:11:57 PM
I think that if you're going to put a city past a route's terminus as a control, it's better to use one that everyone has heard of. Another example is I-40 using Los Angeles instead of San Bernardino. Also, 240 miles isn't that far compared to some other examples. About the distance from St Louis to both Indianapolis and Kansas City on I-70, which are both control cities in the STL area.

I-40 west does sign Los Angeles from Flagstaff to the California border; but once you cross into California, Barstow becomes the control city since that's where I-40 ends at I-15.  I think CalTrans should use Los Angeles as the primary control on I-40 west because it's MUCH bigger and more well-known than Barstow (which should be used as a secondary).  I-15 should also be signed for Los Angeles instead of San Bernardino within California as well as from Las Vegas.

I don't necessarily agree with using smaller cities where the route ends as a control city when there is a much bigger and more well-known city close by on the adjacent route; the larger city should especially be signed in this case.  This is why I make the argument that El Paso should be the primary control city on I-25 south from Albuquerque, with Las Cruces being a secondary.  It is also the reason that NM 502 east from Los Alamos signs Santa Fe instead of Pojoaque.
Close by is a subjective term. To me, close by would be within 50 miles. There are places that are beyond that that do make sense because there aren't many choices. I-70 West defaulting to Las Vegas once you get into Utah for example. In the case of I-76, you have several smaller cities within Nebraska before Omaha.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 14, 2022, 03:00:55 PM
Quote
I like that solution. If I was to do the mileage signs heading east on 76, here's how I would do them.
After 470: Colo 7, Ft Morgan, Omaha
After Colo 7: Hudson, Ft Morgan, North Platte
After Colo 52: Keenesburg, Ft Morgan, Lincoln
After Roggen: Wiggins, Ft Morgan, Omaha
After Wiggins: Ft Morgan, Brush, North Platte
After Ft Morgan: Brush, Sterling, Lincoln
After Brush: Atwood, Sterling, Omaha
After Colo 63: Sterling, Julesburg, Ogallala
After US 6: Crook, Julesburg, North Platte
After Colo 55: Sedgwick, Julesburg, Lincoln
After Colo 59: Ovid, Julesburg, Omaha
After Hwy 29: Julesburg, I-80, Ogallala
After US 385: I-80, Big Spring NE, North Platte

If I did the mileage signs on New Mexico's interstates, here's how I would do them:

I-25 south from Colorado to Albuquerque
After the Colo state line: Raton, Santa Fe, Albuquerque
After Raton: Springer, Santa Fe, Albuquerque
After Springer/US 412: Las Vegas, Santa Fe, Albuquerque
After Wagon Mound: Watrous, Las Vegas, Albuquerque
After Watrous: Las Vegas, Santa Fe, Albuquerque (there is currently no distance sign after that exit)
After San Miguel County Road A6: Las Vegas, Santa Fe, Albuquerque
After Las Vegas: Jct. US 84, Santa Fe, Albuquerque
After US 84: Tecolote, Glorieta, Albuquerque
After US 285: keep Santa Fe, Bernalillo, Albuquerque
==Most of the mileage signs are fine as is between Santa Fe & Albuquerque==
However, here is what I would have on some of them -
After NM 22: San Felipe Pueblo, Bernalillo, Albuquerque
After the San Felipe Pueblo exit: keep Albuquerque, Las Cruces, El Paso =or= Algodones, Bernalillo, Albuquerque
After Algodones: Jct. US 550, Bernalillo, Albuquerque
After Bernalillo: keep Albuquerque, Las Cruces, El Paso

===Once in Albuquerque, have El Paso become the primary control city on SB 25, Las Cruces secondary===

I-25 south from Albuquerque to Las Cruces
After downtown Albuquerque: keep Belen, Las Cruces, El Paso
After Rio Bravo Blvd: Broadway (NM 47), Los Lunas, El Paso
After Exit 209: Los Lunas, Belen, El Paso
After Los Lunas: Belen, Socorro, El Paso
After Belen: keep Socorro, Las Cruces, El Paso
After Exit 163: Lemitar, Socorro, El Paso
After Exit 156: Escondida, Socorro, El Paso
After Socorro: keep San Antonio, Las Cruces, El Paso
After US 380: Truth or Consequences, Las Cruces, El Paso
After Exit 100: Truth or Consequences, Hatch, El Paso
After Exit 92: Truth or Consequences, Hatch, El Paso
After Exit 89: Elephant Butte, Las Cruces, El Paso
After Truth or Consequences: Williamsburg, Las Cruces, El Paso
After Williamsburg: keep Las Cruces, El Paso =or= Hatch, Las Cruces, El Paso
After Las Palomas: Hatch, Las Cruces, El Paso
After NM 187: Garfield, Hatch, El Paso
After NM 546: keep Hatch, Las Cruces, El Paso
After Hatch: keep Rincon, Las Cruces, El Paso
After Rincon: keep Upham, Las Cruces, El Paso
After Exit 32: Radium Springs, Las Cruces, El Paso
After Radium Springs: keep Doña Ana, Las Cruces, El Paso
After US 70: keep Mesquite, Anthony, El Paso



Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on July 14, 2022, 03:13:50 PM
Maybe this should be a spinoff in the Fantasy Highway section.
"If I was to DOT, the mileage signs would read ___ for ___."

There's a number of them in my travels I would change.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 14, 2022, 03:16:18 PM

Quote
Sikeston would be a logical control, because it's a major interstate junction and the (current) terminus of I-57.

Nah...Memphis is a more logical choice because it's much bigger and more well known.  Plus, the distance between Sikeston and Memphis is much less compared to the distance from I-70's western terminus and Las Vegas.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 14, 2022, 03:19:32 PM
Quote
I love control cities on interstates that default on to other interstates.  I love El Paso for both I-20 and I-25, but I hate Weatherford for I-30.  Yes, I-20 actually takes you there, but it kind of acknowledges that I-30 is about to die.

And El Paso ought to be signed on I-25 southbound all the way from Albuquerque; I'm not particularly fond of Las Cruces being signed, though I wouldn't mind it being a secondary.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 14, 2022, 03:51:23 PM
Now back to mileage signs.

Interstate 10 east in New Mexico

===Have El Paso continue being the primary control city, Las Cruces secondary===

After the Arizona border: Lordsburg, Las Cruces, El Paso
After NM 80: NM 338 south, Lordsburg, El Paso
After NM 338: Exit 15, Lordsburg, El Paso
After Exit 15: Lorsdburg, Deming, El Paso
After Lordsburg: Deming, Las Cruces, El Paso
After NM 113: Separ, Las Cruces, El Paso
After Separ: NM 146 south, Deming, Las Cruces
After NM 146: Rest Area, Exit 55, Las Cruces
After Exit 68: keep Deming, Las Cruces, El Paso
After Deming: keep Akela, Las Cruces, El Paso
After Akela: Jct. NM 549, Las Cruces, El Paso
After Exit 127: keep Airport, Las Cruces, El Paso
After Las Cruces: keep Anthony, El Paso
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on July 14, 2022, 04:13:29 PM
Quote from: Henry on July 14, 2022, 01:07:41 PM
I-294: Detroit, Milwaukee (to mirror the signing of Chicago in these respective cities)
Maybe it's just me, but an Indianapolis control city on I-294 SB would be nice to see, even though I-94 doesn't go there. Sort of like how the majority of I-270 NB/EB in MO is signed for Chicago.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on July 14, 2022, 05:22:59 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 14, 2022, 03:19:32 PM
Quote
I love control cities on interstates that default on to other interstates.  I love El Paso for both I-20 and I-25, but I hate Weatherford for I-30.  Yes, I-20 actually takes you there, but it kind of acknowledges that I-30 is about to die.

And El Paso ought to be signed on I-25 southbound all the way from Albuquerque; I'm not particularly fond of Las Cruces being signed, though I wouldn't mind it being a secondary.

Seems weird to diss the second largest city in the state by skipping over it, especially since it's an interstate junction.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on July 14, 2022, 05:57:14 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on July 14, 2022, 05:22:59 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 14, 2022, 03:19:32 PM
Quote
I love control cities on interstates that default on to other interstates.  I love El Paso for both I-20 and I-25, but I hate Weatherford for I-30.  Yes, I-20 actually takes you there, but it kind of acknowledges that I-30 is about to die.

And El Paso ought to be signed on I-25 southbound all the way from Albuquerque; I'm not particularly fond of Las Cruces being signed, though I wouldn't mind it being a secondary.

Seems weird to diss the second largest city in the state by skipping over it, especially since it's an interstate junction.
Wouldn't be the first time I have come across that. Joliet is now the 3rd largest city in Illinois but some say it is too close to Chicago to get even secondary status.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: CoreySamson on July 14, 2022, 06:02:20 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 14, 2022, 11:50:05 AM
Baton Rouge is good for westbound, but east bound shouldn't be Hamond then Slidel, it should be Gulfport or Biloxi like I-10 has.  I like New Orleans for southbound on both I-59 and I-55.
Speaking of Gulfport and Biloxi, why does Mississippi like skipping them for Mobile or even Pascagoula in certain spots? I also don't really get McComb, Grenada, and Laurel as control cities.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: webny99 on July 14, 2022, 06:10:16 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 14, 2022, 01:54:28 PM
Quote from: Henry on July 14, 2022, 01:07:41 PM
Count me in as another anti-"control state" person. As a native of Chicago, I really dislike the practices on I-80, I-90 and I-94 (plus I-294). The following should be used as control cities:

I-80: Toledo, Quad Cities (Moline, preferably)
I-90: Gary (although I do like that Rockford is already signed for WB)
I-94 and I-294: Detroit, Milwaukee (to mirror the signing of Chicago in these respective cities)

I-55 and I-57 are fine, as they show St. Louis and Memphis as their destinations. While I-88 to Aurora is also fine, I'd like to see a slightly larger destination added, like Moline where it meets I-88 on the western end.

So any way you sign control cities for I-294 south, I-94 east and I-90 east creates problems.

Traffic heading into Indiana either via the Borman or the Toll Road is going to scatter amongst I-65 south, I-94 east and the eastbound Toll Road upon reaching Gary/Lake Station, so using only Detroit on I-94 or only Toledo on I-90 as a control city is problematic.

Using Gary is the most accurate way to sign those routes since they all go there, but Gary carries such a negative connotation and most traffic is not actually going to Gary.

Using Indiana provides accuracy without the negative connotation of Gary but is of course much more vague.

Using all of Detroit/Toledo/Indianapolis would be fully informative but cumbersome.

I don't have a problem with using Gary. The negative connotation can't be helped, and control cities aren't meant to be where most traffic on the route is going, they're meant to be the next logical waypoint, which Gary is for those routes. Then you can sign Indy, Toledo, and Detroit on their respective routes from there.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on July 14, 2022, 06:12:13 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on July 14, 2022, 06:02:20 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 14, 2022, 11:50:05 AM
Baton Rouge is good for westbound, but east bound shouldn't be Hamond then Slidel, it should be Gulfport or Biloxi like I-10 has.  I like New Orleans for southbound on both I-59 and I-55.
Speaking of Gulfport and Biloxi, why does Mississippi like skipping them for Mobile or even Pascagoula in certain spots? I also don't really get McComb, Grenada, and Laurel as control cities.
Mobile is much bigger and not that far from Biloxi. Biloxi as a secondary is good.
As for McComb and Grenada, those are not even good secondary cities.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on July 14, 2022, 06:43:16 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 14, 2022, 05:57:14 PM
Wouldn't be the first time I have come across that. Joliet is now the 3rd largest city in Illinois but some say it is too close to Chicago to get even secondary status.
Otoh, you have East St Louis with secondary status even though it's a smaller place than Joliet, right across the river from St Louis, and have a bad reputation (worse than Gary that was mentioned earlier).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ilpt4u on July 14, 2022, 06:46:52 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 14, 2022, 06:43:16 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 14, 2022, 05:57:14 PM
Wouldn't be the first time I have come across that. Joliet is now the 3rd largest city in Illinois but some say it is too close to Chicago to get even secondary status.
Otoh, you have East St Louis with secondary status even though it's a smaller place than Joliet, right across the river from St Louis, and have a bad reputation (worse than Gary that was mentioned earlier).
Cairo has Secondary status from Marion on south for 57 in Southern IL. Cairo is almost a ghost town
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on July 14, 2022, 08:39:04 PM
Quote from: webny99 on July 14, 2022, 06:10:16 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on July 14, 2022, 01:54:28 PM
Quote from: Henry on July 14, 2022, 01:07:41 PM
Count me in as another anti-"control state" person. As a native of Chicago, I really dislike the practices on I-80, I-90 and I-94 (plus I-294). The following should be used as control cities:

I-80: Toledo, Quad Cities (Moline, preferably)
I-90: Gary (although I do like that Rockford is already signed for WB)
I-94 and I-294: Detroit, Milwaukee (to mirror the signing of Chicago in these respective cities)

I-55 and I-57 are fine, as they show St. Louis and Memphis as their destinations. While I-88 to Aurora is also fine, I'd like to see a slightly larger destination added, like Moline where it meets I-88 on the western end.

So any way you sign control cities for I-294 south, I-94 east and I-90 east creates problems.

Traffic heading into Indiana either via the Borman or the Toll Road is going to scatter amongst I-65 south, I-94 east and the eastbound Toll Road upon reaching Gary/Lake Station, so using only Detroit on I-94 or only Toledo on I-90 as a control city is problematic.

Using Gary is the most accurate way to sign those routes since they all go there, but Gary carries such a negative connotation and most traffic is not actually going to Gary.

Using Indiana provides accuracy without the negative connotation of Gary but is of course much more vague.

Using all of Detroit/Toledo/Indianapolis would be fully informative but cumbersome.

I don't have a problem with using Gary. The negative connotation can't be helped, and control cities aren't meant to be where most traffic on the route is going, they're meant to be the next logical waypoint, which Gary is for those routes. Then you can sign Indy, Toledo, and Detroit on their respective routes from there.
Actually yes they are meant to be where most traffic is going, or at least that should be one of the major considerations when selecting control cities


iPhone
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: dvferyance on July 14, 2022, 10:11:16 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 14, 2022, 04:13:29 PM
Quote from: Henry on July 14, 2022, 01:07:41 PM
I-294: Detroit, Milwaukee (to mirror the signing of Chicago in these respective cities)
Maybe it's just me, but an Indianapolis control city on I-294 SB would be nice to see, even though I-94 doesn't go there. Sort of like how the majority of I-270 NB/EB in MO is signed for Chicago.
Wisconsin is fine for I-294 NB before O Hare because I-90 goes there as well. However north of O Hare it should be all Milwaukee from there.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on July 15, 2022, 01:30:29 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 14, 2022, 10:11:16 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 14, 2022, 04:13:29 PM
Quote from: Henry on July 14, 2022, 01:07:41 PM
I-294: Detroit, Milwaukee (to mirror the signing of Chicago in these respective cities)
Maybe it's just me, but an Indianapolis control city on I-294 SB would be nice to see, even though I-94 doesn't go there. Sort of like how the majority of I-270 NB/EB in MO is signed for Chicago.
Wisconsin is fine for I-294 NB before O Hare because I-90 goes there as well. However north of O Hare it should be all Milwaukee from there.
294 NB is signed for Milwaukee starting at 290.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hbelkins on July 15, 2022, 01:34:36 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 14, 2022, 03:16:18 PM

Quote
Sikeston would be a logical control, because it's a major interstate junction and the (current) terminus of I-57.

Nah...Memphis is a more logical choice because it's much bigger and more well known.  Plus, the distance between Sikeston and Memphis is much less compared to the distance from I-70's western terminus and Las Vegas.

When I-57 is completed to Little Rock, then do you remove Memphis in favor of LR?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on July 15, 2022, 01:45:58 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 15, 2022, 01:34:36 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 14, 2022, 03:16:18 PM

Quote
Sikeston would be a logical control, because it's a major interstate junction and the (current) terminus of I-57.

Nah...Memphis is a more logical choice because it's much bigger and more well known.  Plus, the distance between Sikeston and Memphis is much less compared to the distance from I-70's western terminus and Las Vegas.

When I-57 is completed to Little Rock, then do you remove Memphis in favor of LR?
Good question. I would say it remains Memphis until I-55 and then becomes Little Rock. Think of it kind of the same way the relationship between I-80 and Chicago is. Yes it's a bit further in distance but same concept.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: amroad17 on July 16, 2022, 06:46:21 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 14, 2022, 06:12:13 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on July 14, 2022, 06:02:20 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 14, 2022, 11:50:05 AM
Baton Rouge is good for westbound, but east bound shouldn't be Hamond then Slidel, it should be Gulfport or Biloxi like I-10 has.  I like New Orleans for southbound on both I-59 and I-55.
Speaking of Gulfport and Biloxi, why does Mississippi like skipping them for Mobile or even Pascagoula in certain spots? I also don't really get McComb, Grenada, and Laurel as control cities.
Mobile is much bigger and not that far from Biloxi. Biloxi as a secondary is good.
As for McComb and Grenada, those are not even good secondary cities.
And since we are discussing control cities along I-10 between New Orleans and Mobile, how about the Louisiana DOT replace Bay St. Louis with Gulfport (or Biloxi) as well as ALDOT replace Pascagoula with Gulfport (or Biloxi).  I know these have been carbon copied since the 1970's because I-10 transitioned into US 90 right at the AL/MS line near Pascagoula and I-10 ended at the first interchange in Mississippi (current MS 607 which leads to US 90 near Bay St. Louis) after leaving Louisiana.  There is such a thing as updating these control points instead of using outdated control points.

What is a bit amusing is that Mississippi uses New Orleans and Mobile as their control cities at most every I-10 interchange.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: RobbieL2415 on July 16, 2022, 05:12:55 PM
I'm not a fan of how MA uses states and geographical locations as control points; NH-Maine, Cape Cod, and the most egregious, The Islands.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MATraveler128 on July 16, 2022, 08:14:23 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on July 16, 2022, 05:12:55 PM
I'm not a fan of how MA uses states and geographical locations as control points; NH-Maine, Cape Cod, and the most egregious, The Islands.

There was also a sign on I-90 eastbound at Exit 123 (then Exit 14) that read "South Shore"  in addition to NH-Maine. Obviously the signs were replaced and now say Portsmouth NH/Providence RI.

In New Hampshire on I-95 north at Exit 4, signs use NH Lakes/White Mtns. And I-89 north at Exit 17 uses just "Vermont"  instead of either White River Jct or Montpelier.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 18, 2022, 01:19:26 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO

Seems weird to diss the second largest city in the state by skipping over it, especially since it's an interstate junction.

I get that Las Cruces is the second biggest city in New Mexico and has an interstate junction.  But the reason for El Paso being the most logical choice to use as the primary control city on I-25 south from Albuquerque is that El Paso is MUCH bigger and more well-known (especially to out-of-state drivers) than Las Cruces, and it's only 45 miles from LC.  What I mean about Las Cruces being the secondary control city on I-25 south is having it signed at smaller interchanges or dual signing Las Cruces / El Paso on some overheads in Albuquerque.  But I would definitely sign El Paso at the Big-I.  Using a smaller city as a secondary doesn't mean skipping over it completely.  As far as secondary controls, I would not sign Belen or Socorro (those can go on distance signs only).

It is also the reason I-10 in Arizona signs El Paso instead of Las Cruces going east out of Tucson; and Tucson is at a farther distance from El Paso than Albuquerque is.  Arizona doesn't even sign secondary controls; only the big cities are mentioned, even at smaller interchanges.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 18, 2022, 01:29:16 PM
As much as I like how Arizona signs interstate control cities, there is one bad control city in that state; and that is I-8 east signing Phoenix as one of the control cities going from Yuma to Gila Bend.

I-8 doesn't even run close to Phoenix, and to get there you'd have to exit at Gila Bend, go north on AZ-85, and then east on I-10.  The use of Phoenix is a holdover from the days when it was US 80 (that route turned north from Gila Bend to go to Phoenix and then turned south to go to Tucson before resuming its east-west direction).  But since US 80 west of Dallas was decommissioned, AZDOT ought give up signing Phoenix, except at Exit 115; only Tucson should be the control city on I-8 east within Arizona.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on July 18, 2022, 03:33:16 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 18, 2022, 01:29:16 PM
As much as I like how Arizona signs interstate control cities, there is one bad control city in that state; and that is I-8 east signing Phoenix as one of the control cities going from Yuma to Gila Bend.

I-8 doesn't even run close to Phoenix, and to get there you'd have to exit at Gila Bend, go north on AZ-85, and then east on I-10.  The use of Phoenix is a holdover from the days when it was US 80 (that route turned north from Gila Bend to go to Phoenix and then turned south to go to Tucson before resuming its east-west direction).  But since US 80 west of Dallas was decommissioned, AZDOT ought give up signing Phoenix, except at Exit 115; only Tucson should be the control city on I-8 east within Arizona.
That's a tough one. I get what you are saying but at the same time, if Phoenix was signed in San Diego, I-8/AZ 85 would be the quickest way to Phoenix vs I-15/I-215/CA 60/I-10. Leaving off the 5th largest city in the country for only the 34th largest is tough to justify.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on July 18, 2022, 05:12:03 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 18, 2022, 01:19:26 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO

Seems weird to diss the second largest city in the state by skipping over it, especially since it's an interstate junction.

I get that Las Cruces is the second biggest city in New Mexico and has an interstate junction.  But the reason for El Paso being the most logical choice to use as the primary control city on I-25 south from Albuquerque is that El Paso is MUCH bigger and more well-known (especially to out-of-state drivers) than Las Cruces, and it's only 45 miles from LC.  What I mean about Las Cruces being the secondary control city on I-25 south is having it signed at smaller interchanges or dual signing Las Cruces / El Paso on some overheads in Albuquerque.  But I would definitely sign El Paso at the Big-I.  Using a smaller city as a secondary doesn't mean skipping over it completely.  As far as secondary controls, I would not sign Belen or Socorro (those can go on distance signs only).

It is also the reason I-10 in Arizona signs El Paso instead of Las Cruces going east out of Tucson; and Tucson is at a farther distance from El Paso than Albuquerque is.  Arizona doesn't even sign secondary controls; only the big cities are mentioned, even at smaller interchanges.

I-25 doesn't actually go to El Paso, though. And someone may use I-25 south to reach I-10 west. If someone is going to Tucson, having "El Paso" as the control city as they leave Albuquerque is going to confuse the hell out of them.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 18, 2022, 07:34:24 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 18, 2022, 05:12:03 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 18, 2022, 01:19:26 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO

Seems weird to diss the second largest city in the state by skipping over it, especially since it's an interstate junction.

I get that Las Cruces is the second biggest city in New Mexico and has an interstate junction.  But the reason for El Paso being the most logical choice to use as the primary control city on I-25 south from Albuquerque is that El Paso is MUCH bigger and more well-known (especially to out-of-state drivers) than Las Cruces, and it's only 45 miles from LC.  What I mean about Las Cruces being the secondary control city on I-25 south is having it signed at smaller interchanges or dual signing Las Cruces / El Paso on some overheads in Albuquerque.  But I would definitely sign El Paso at the Big-I.  Using a smaller city as a secondary doesn't mean skipping over it completely.  As far as secondary controls, I would not sign Belen or Socorro (those can go on distance signs only).

It is also the reason I-10 in Arizona signs El Paso instead of Las Cruces going east out of Tucson; and Tucson is at a farther distance from El Paso than Albuquerque is.  Arizona doesn't even sign secondary controls; only the big cities are mentioned, even at smaller interchanges.

I-25 doesn't actually go to El Paso, though. And someone may use I-25 south to reach I-10 west. If someone is going to Tucson, having "El Paso" as the control city as they leave Albuquerque is going to confuse the hell out of them.

1) But nonetheless, El Paso is basically a straight shot from Albuquerque despite I-25 not actually going there; that's the reason it appears on a lot of mileage signs on I-25 south between Albuquerque and Las Cruces.  And I-25 south defaults onto I-10, which does reach El Paso (I-10 actually runs north-south between LC and EP); that's why EP is a straight shot from ABQ.

2) The usual and most logical way for motorists who want to go to Tucson from Albuquerque is take I-25 south as if you're headed towards Las Cruces or El Paso; however, you exit I-25 at Hatch, and then use NM 26 to Deming, which is where you get onto I-10 west towards Tucson.  By taking this route, you completely avoid Las Cruces.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kirbykart on July 19, 2022, 05:47:48 PM
I can't say anything about New Hampshire as a whole, but it has a NB I-95 control city that I hate, and that is "All Maine Points". I'll give you some reasons I hate it:
1) Control cities should NEVER be this vague.
2) It may be good for reaching Portland, Augusta, and Bangor, but a lot of I-95 traffic to Maine is tourists, especially in the summer.
3) Tourists to Maine don't usually want to go to Augusta, or Bangor, they want to go to the beach. I-95 is not great for reaching one of the most popular beaches in Maine, York Beach.
4) But you say, "Kirbykart, many of these tourists want to go to York and York Beach, right?" And I would say "Yes, you are right."
5) So should New Hampshire be posting "All Maine Points" as a control on NB I-95? No, they should not.
By the way, the best way to reach York Beach from the south is to get off at Exit 5 (PORTSMOUTH CIRCLE), then take US 1 BY-PASS. This might seem like a bad idea to go through Portsmouth, but it gets you away from the horrendous I-95 traffic, and that's always a plus. This is also good for getting to Kittery.
While the I-95 Piscataqua River Bridge is a really cool bridge, the drawbridge on US 1 BY-PASS is a unique and interesting experience (I mean, a modern drawbridge) Overall, you get more bang for your buck by taking US 1 BY-PASS over I-95 to York Beach.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kirbykart on July 19, 2022, 05:54:46 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on July 19, 2022, 05:47:48 PM
I can't say anything about New Hampshire as a whole, but it has a NB I-95 control city that I hate, and that is "All Maine Points". I'll give you some reasons I hate it:
I completely forgot to talk about reaching the lakes of Western Maine, which I-95 doesn't even come remotely close to reaching. The best way for that is to get off at Exit 4
(SPAULDING TURNPIKE
US 4
NH 16
WHITE MOUNTAINS
NH LAKES)
then continue along into Northern NH, then cut over to Maine (US 2 is good for this cross-over) Then you'll be much closer to the lakes of Western Maine than I-95 could ever get you.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: gonealookin on July 19, 2022, 06:40:57 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 13, 2021, 03:59:11 PM
I'd nominate Nevada for one of the best. 

I-15: Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City
I-80: Sacramento, Reno, Elko, Salt Lake City

I-11 won't always be Boulder City but it makes sense for now since it doesn't cross the border.

Chris

It's pretty hard for Nevada to mess this up.  What the heck else would you pick?  Sacramento seems better than San Francisco.

We do have South Lake Tahoe on I-580/US 395.  But that makes a lot of sense, because many people driving southbound on that freeway are tourists in rental cars coming out of the Reno airport and headed for the lake.  (Photo was taken right about the time the South Reno to Washoe Valley segment opened, before the I-580 shield was added.)

(https://i.imgur.com/S1mEO1Z.jpg)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on July 20, 2022, 08:58:47 PM
Illinois is the worst, not just for what it does in the Chicago area, but for actually posting East St Louis as a control city. Just post St Louis...
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JustDrive on July 20, 2022, 09:55:53 PM
California is loath to posting out-of-state control cities. Portland, Reno, Las Vegas, Kingman, Phoenix, and Yuma aren't signed until there's absolutely no city of consequence to post. Same with the US routes, with the exception of 6 and 395
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on July 20, 2022, 10:13:54 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on July 20, 2022, 08:58:47 PM
Illinois is the worst, not just for what it does in the Chicago area, but for actually posting East St Louis as a control city. Just post St Louis...
I'm confused on where they use East St. Louis.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Revive 755 on July 20, 2022, 10:40:11 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 20, 2022, 10:13:54 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on July 20, 2022, 08:58:47 PM
Illinois is the worst, not just for what it does in the Chicago area, but for actually posting East St Louis as a control city. Just post St Louis...
I'm confused on where they use East St. Louis.

East St. Louis is a secondary control city for I-55 south of Springfield (https://goo.gl/maps/NFA2kZGwRXpodX336), I-64 starting around Mount Vernon, (https://goo.gl/maps/CZm2QfK7U897RYsc6) and I-70 starting around Effingham. (https://goo.gl/maps/E28iGUVc1JMSL76VA)  To me East St. Louis is a bad choice due to how close it is to St. Louis (a one mile difference on this sign on I-70 (https://goo.gl/maps/eTaFEPfm2zsdEXMU9) and a 3 mile difference on this sign on I-55 (https://goo.gl/maps/BhwCQr9ttGKQ7Qvk6)). 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: GaryA on July 21, 2022, 11:26:38 AM
Quote from: JustDrive on July 20, 2022, 09:55:53 PM
California is loath to posting out-of-state control cities. Portland, Reno, Las Vegas, Kingman, Phoenix, and Yuma aren't signed until there's absolutely no city of consequence to post. Same with the US routes, with the exception of 6 and 395

They've gotten much better about Reno -- now pretty consistently signed starting from Sacramento, where they once would use "Truckee" -- and a little better about Las Vegas (probably because of the sheer volume of LA drivers headed there).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on July 21, 2022, 01:21:32 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on July 20, 2022, 08:58:47 PM
Illinois is the worst

Fixed.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Henry on July 21, 2022, 01:56:02 PM
Not to be biased, but WA is the best at signing control cities out of state. And bonus, you'll see Vancouver, BC for I-5 north of Seattle, since BC 99 links the two.

CA and TX get passes for being really big states.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on July 21, 2022, 02:37:48 PM
I think for interstates, control cities should be of at least 100,000 people and roughly at most 400 miles away from the last control city, unless in that 400 mile stretch there are no qualifying city, then you need to expand it.  I-10 between El Paso and San Antonio is an example being almost 600 miles apart.
There should be no other control cities between the two.  Mileage signs can show the secondary one, especially in the west when you are praying for a gas station and need to know exactly where you are going to have to start walking.  States should drop their pride of their in state cities and keep it to the big ones, even if that city is in another state.  Some states do it well, others, not so much.

So any state that adheres to this basic philosophy I like.  I would say Arizona, Tennessee, Nevada, Florida and Arkansas do it good.  New Mexico, California, Louisiana, Mississippi (I-10 specifically), New York and Connecticut need some help.  No state control cities, regional control cities (New England) or vague control cities (Other Desert Cities).  I am kind of not a fan of westbound I-40 in the eastern part of Arizona having the Grand Canyon as a control city.  Granted a lot of people use I-40 to get to the Grand Canyon, but some just driving through might think the Grand Canyon is right off the edge of pavement of the main lanes of I-40. 

I always think its funny starting in downtown Oklahoma City, I-35 southbound has Dallas as a control city, ignoring the I-35E/I-35W split.  The inverse, starting in Waco, the control city is Dallas/Ft. Worth. 

To Illinois, doesn't I-70 eastbound have Indianapolis as the control city, then it switches to Tere Haute?  I can't remember, and it didn't bother me at the time because I was spending the night in Tere Haute so I was headed there anyway. 

Something that does aggravate me is control cities advancing to the next control city before you have actually made it to the previous one.  Examples are southbound I-35 before you reach downtown San Antonio switching to Laredo and westbound SH-71 just past the Austin-Bergstrom International Airport switches to Llano and you are still basically in the suburbs of Austin. 

All this being said, this is why I am such an interstate lover.  Besides the obvious faster and safer highway part, I love how they have very strict standards, yet the states still seem to find a way to put their own personal spin on them. 

Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: US 89 on July 21, 2022, 02:53:21 PM
I want to know why Nevada gets a free pass on using Elko but even the suggestion that Utah sign Provo or St George instead of Las Vegas seems to be so unpopular.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 21, 2022, 05:24:59 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 18, 2022, 03:33:16 PM
That's a tough one. I get what you are saying but at the same time, if Phoenix was signed in San Diego, I-8/AZ 85 would be the quickest way to Phoenix vs I-15/I-215/CA 60/I-10. Leaving off the 5th largest city in the country for only the 34th largest is tough to justify.

Phoenix is neither signed in San Diego, nor is it even signed in LA.  And on I-8, only Tucson shows up on distance signs within California. 

El Centro is the first control city on I-8 east, then it changes to Yuma; and as soon as you cross from California into Arizona, you then get the Tucson/Phoenix dual control cities until Exit 115.  My only justification for not signing Phoenix on I-8 except at Exit 115 is that you have to backtrack to get there (first north on AZ-85 and then east on I-10); on the other hand, Tucson is just a straight shot from San Diego.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Brandon on July 21, 2022, 05:41:16 PM
Nine pages and no one has yet mentioned Wyoming.  I-80 there is as bad as in Pennsylvania.  Utah signs Cheyenne, but once in Wyoming, it's Evanston, Green River, Rock Springs, Rawlins (which makes Limon look good), Laramie, Cheyenne, and fucking Sydney, Nebraska, not Lincoln or Omaha.  Even as bad as Nebraska can be signing Sydney from I-76, they at least have Cheyenne on I-80 west.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 21, 2022, 06:22:20 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 21, 2022, 02:37:48 PM
I think for interstates, control cities should be of at least 100,000 people and roughly at most 400 miles away from the last control city, unless in that 400 mile stretch there are no qualifying city, then you need to expand it.

If only New Mexico ditched in-state control cities (except its largest cities) in favor of the next big city, they would most likely sign Denver as the primary control city on I-25 north from Albuquerque (albeit using Santa Fe as a secondary), even though it's more than 400 miles away.  You've got the smaller cities of Pueblo and Colorado Springs before reaching Denver.  The only problem with signing either Pueblo or Colorado Springs is that neither city has an interstate junction, despite being reasonably sized.  Denver is not only the biggest city in Colorado and the state capital; it has multiple interstate junctions, the most notable being I-25 @ I-70.  That's why in Albuquerque, there are two mileage signs for Denver on NB I-25 once you're north of the Big-I.  The first one reads Bernalillo, Santa Fe, Denver; and just before leaving the city, the second mileage sign reads Bernalillo, Jct. US 550, Denver.  No mention of Pueblo or Colorado Springs.

Of course to make things consistent, I-25 would have to sign El Paso as the primary southbound control city from Albuquerque, whilst using Las Cruces as a secondary (especially since there are distance signs with Las Cruces on the second line and El Paso on the bottom).  I-40 east would then have be signed for Amarillo, and I-40 west for Flagstaff.
 
Quote
I would say Arizona, Tennessee, Nevada, Florida and Arkansas do it good.  New Mexico, California, Louisiana, Mississippi (I-10 specifically), New York and Connecticut need some help.  No state control cities, regional control cities (New England) or vague control cities (Other Desert Cities).

California, I would say is mixed considering it's a big state.  You'll have some interstates signing the next big city, but then there are others that will sign smaller towns. 

For instance, I-5 north from San Diego signs Los Angeles; then in LA, Sacramento becomes the control city on NB 5.  Within Sacramento, I-80 east is Reno, I-80 west is San Francisco; I-5 north is Redding (I think that makes sense because Portland is almost 600 miles from Sacramento), and I-5 south is Los Angeles.  Even CA-99 signs Fresno going south from Sacramento while skipping over Stockton.  But I-5 south from LA ought to sign San Diego as the primary control and Santa Ana as a secondary (i.e. dual signing both on overheads).

I think the control cities on I-8, I-10, and I-40 are particularly questionable.  Let's start with I-40.  Going west from Flagstaff, the control city is Los Angeles but changes to Barstow once you're in California.  I-40 east is Needles, then changes to Kingman; but Flagstaff immediately becomes the control city once you're in Arizona, even before you reach Kingman.  And I-10 is San Bernardino, Indio (and other cities), then changes to Blythe and Phoenix.

Oregon is another mixed bag.  I-5 signs Portland going north from Ashland or Medford, skipping over Eugene and Salem; and Seattle then becomes the control city within Portland.  But going south, Salem is the control city, then changes to Eugene, and then to Ashland.  I-84 signs The Dalles (eastbound only), Pendleton, La Grande, Baker City, Ontario; and finally Boise becomes the control city just before crossing into Idaho.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 21, 2022, 06:31:39 PM
Colorado is another state I think needs help.  Most of the control cities within Denver are fine, especially on I-25.  However, I-70 east ought to be Topeka or Kansas City; and I-76 ought to be signed for Omaha.  After Grand Junction, perhaps sign Las Vegas on WB I-70.  From Colorado Springs, dual sign Pueblo / Albuquerque on I-25 south; and from Pueblo, keep Albuquerque, and skip over Trinidad and Raton.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on July 21, 2022, 06:40:41 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 21, 2022, 06:22:20 PM
I think the control cities on I-8, I-10, and I-40 are particularly questionable.  Let's start with I-40.  Going west from Flagstaff, the control city is Los Angeles but changes to Barstow once you're in California.  I-40 east is Needles, then changes to Kingman; but Flagstaff immediately becomes the control city once you're in Arizona, even before you reach Kingman.  And I-10 is San Bernardino, Indio (and other cities), then changes to Blythe and Phoenix.

I-8 with El Centro and even Winterhaven (ignoring Yuma).  I say there should be some distance signs in California to Tucson on I-8 eastbound when approaching Yuma. 

When I was thinking about California needing help, I was mainly thinking of it's east-west interstates, which are, interestingly enough, the routes that go in the shorter direction of the state (which I find odd given the qualifier of it having many in-state control cities due to it being a big state).  There should be no reason not to sign out of state control cities for I-10, I-40 and I-8's entire existence in California. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JustDrive on July 21, 2022, 06:50:16 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 21, 2022, 06:40:41 PMI-8 with El Centro and even Winterhaven (ignoring Yuma).  I say there should be some distance signs in California to Tucson on I-8 eastbound when approaching Yuma. 

When I was thinking about California needing help, I was mainly thinking of it's east-west interstates, which are, interestingly enough, the routes that go in the shorter direction of the state (which I find odd given the qualifier of it having many in-state control cities due to it being a big state).  There should be no reason not to sign out of state control cities for I-10, I-40 and I-8's entire existence in California. 

I think a lot of it has to do with the old US highway junctions. I-40 (old 66) east of Barstow intersects its next US highway in Needles. I-10 (old 60/70/99) intersected US 91/395 in San Bernardino, and I-8 (old 80) used to intersect US 99 in El Centro.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on July 21, 2022, 07:41:37 PM
Quote from: Brandon on July 21, 2022, 05:41:16 PM
Nine pages and no one has yet mentioned Wyoming.  I-80 there is as bad as in Pennsylvania.  Utah signs Cheyenne, but once in Wyoming, it's Evanston, Green River, Rock Springs, Rawlins (which makes Limon look good), Laramie, Cheyenne, and fucking Sydney, Nebraska, not Lincoln or Omaha.  Even as bad as Nebraska can be signing Sydney from I-76, they at least have Cheyenne on I-80 west.

A couple years ago I was getting algorithm-based promotions for Sidney as a stopover destination appearing on my social media pages. It was one of the more laughable things I've ever seen.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ilpt4u on July 21, 2022, 07:50:51 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on July 20, 2022, 10:40:11 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 20, 2022, 10:13:54 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on July 20, 2022, 08:58:47 PM
Illinois is the worst, not just for what it does in the Chicago area, but for actually posting East St Louis as a control city. Just post St Louis...
I'm confused on where they use East St. Louis.

East St. Louis is a secondary control city for I-55 south of Springfield (https://goo.gl/maps/NFA2kZGwRXpodX336), I-64 starting around Mount Vernon, (https://goo.gl/maps/CZm2QfK7U897RYsc6) and I-70 starting around Effingham. (https://goo.gl/maps/E28iGUVc1JMSL76VA)  To me East St. Louis is a bad choice due to how close it is to St. Louis (a one mile difference on this sign on I-70 (https://goo.gl/maps/eTaFEPfm2zsdEXMU9) and a 3 mile difference on this sign on I-55 (https://goo.gl/maps/BhwCQr9ttGKQ7Qvk6)).
If Illinois really wants to sign Metro East Secondaries, I-55 and I-70 should use Troy or Edwardsville, and I-64 should use Fairview Heights (I would say O'Fallon, but that is a bit ambiguous since there is an O'Fallon, IL and an O'Fallon, MO in the St Louis Metro area). Belleville is another option, but it is a bit further off of I-64's direct path

East St Louis is a bad decision, just because it is so close/just across the river from St Louis. Kinda defeats the purpose of a Secondary when it is walking distance from the Primary (granted, a long walk across the Eads Bridge, but is still walking distance)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on July 21, 2022, 08:19:41 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on July 20, 2022, 10:40:11 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 20, 2022, 10:13:54 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on July 20, 2022, 08:58:47 PM
Illinois is the worst, not just for what it does in the Chicago area, but for actually posting East St Louis as a control city. Just post St Louis...
I'm confused on where they use East St. Louis.

East St. Louis is a secondary control city for I-55 south of Springfield (https://goo.gl/maps/NFA2kZGwRXpodX336), I-64 starting around Mount Vernon, (https://goo.gl/maps/CZm2QfK7U897RYsc6) and I-70 starting around Effingham. (https://goo.gl/maps/E28iGUVc1JMSL76VA)  To me East St. Louis is a bad choice due to how close it is to St. Louis (a one mile difference on this sign on I-70 (https://goo.gl/maps/eTaFEPfm2zsdEXMU9) and a 3 mile difference on this sign on I-55 (https://goo.gl/maps/BhwCQr9ttGKQ7Qvk6)).
Wow that really is bad. It really makes no sense to use East St. Louis. I mean seriously it was a waste to add the East it should just be St. Louis.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: gonealookin on July 21, 2022, 08:55:20 PM
Quote from: US 89 on July 21, 2022, 02:53:21 PM
I want to know why Nevada gets a free pass on using Elko but even the suggestion that Utah sign Provo or St George instead of Las Vegas seems to be so unpopular.

I don't mind Elko.  ~518 miles from Reno to SLC is too long for some people even at 70-75-80 mph, especially those with kids, and Elko is by far the town with the most services out there and is more or less at the halfway point.

As to I-15 in Utah, others know more about that than I do so I'll mostly abstain, but I know that St. George has been booming as a retirement destination and it's probably quite a bit more worthy now than it would have been a few decades ago.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on July 22, 2022, 09:33:56 AM
Quote from: gonealookin on July 21, 2022, 08:55:20 PM
Quote from: US 89 on July 21, 2022, 02:53:21 PM
I want to know why Nevada gets a free pass on using Elko but even the suggestion that Utah sign Provo or St George instead of Las Vegas seems to be so unpopular.

I don't mind Elko.  ~518 miles from Reno to SLC is too long for some people even at 70-75-80 mph, especially those with kids, and Elko is by far the town with the most services out there and is more or less at the halfway point.

This has made me think; I don't really mind extremely far control cities, or trumping one control city over another because it's size is larger than the other, because one of the things I get out of control cities is an overall heading to the highway. If I am heading to city B (and didn't really do much research other than "it's north of my current location") and I know city B is located on or just slightly off of the highway that goes to the further, bigger city A, then I follow those signs. Being a road nut, that situation rarely happens.  I can think of sometimes getting to one of the many suburbs of the big cities can be a challenge because I don't remember all of them, so control cities help there.  Say I know this suburb is north east of the big city I am in and it's on the road to the next big city, so I will follow those signs. 

Looking at your quote makes me go back to I-10 between San Antonio and El Paso.  570 miles between them and they are the only control cities, but given the area, that's all you really need.  It tells you when you are standing in San Antonio, this is the major highway going west. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hotdogPi on July 22, 2022, 09:36:17 AM
You said a minimum of 100,000 people, and if it's greater than 400 miles, go the longer distance rather than going with a smaller city. Charleston WV is slightly under 50,000. Would you make an exception for Charleston?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SEWIGuy on July 22, 2022, 11:03:14 AM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 22, 2022, 09:33:56 AM
Quote from: gonealookin on July 21, 2022, 08:55:20 PM
Quote from: US 89 on July 21, 2022, 02:53:21 PM
I want to know why Nevada gets a free pass on using Elko but even the suggestion that Utah sign Provo or St George instead of Las Vegas seems to be so unpopular.

I don't mind Elko.  ~518 miles from Reno to SLC is too long for some people even at 70-75-80 mph, especially those with kids, and Elko is by far the town with the most services out there and is more or less at the halfway point.

This has made me think; I don't really mind extremely far control cities, or triumphing one control city over another because it's size is larger than the other, because one of the things I get out of control cities is an overall heading to the highway. If I am heading to city B (and didn't really do much research other than "it's north of my current location") and I know city B is located on or just slightly off of the highway that goes to the further, bigger city A, then I follow those signs. Being a road nut, that situation rarely happens.  I can think of sometimes getting to one of the many suburbs of the big cities can be a challenge because I don't remember all of them, so control cities help there.  Say I know this suburb is north east of the big city I am in and it's on the road to the next big city, so I will follow those signs. 

Looking at your quote makes me go back to I-10 between San Antonio and El Paso.  570 miles between them and they are the only control cities, but given the area, that's all you really need.  It tells you when you are standing in San Antonio, this is the major highway going west. 


This is exactly right.  Which is why in the Chicago area, Elgin isn't a better option than Rockford.  Sure Elgin is bigger population wise, but a lot of out of towners and even some locals, probably don't know where Elgin is exactly.  Rockford, being out of the metro area, makes more sense.

IMO, this is how most people who are "directionally challenged" use control cities.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on July 22, 2022, 11:33:37 AM
Quote from: 1 on July 22, 2022, 09:36:17 AM
You said a minimum of 100,000 people, and if it's greater than 400 miles, go the longer distance rather than going with a smaller city. Charleston WV is slightly under 50,000. Would you make an exception for Charleston?

I think capital cities should get an exemption to the 100,000 pop rule. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: US 89 on July 22, 2022, 11:47:35 AM
If you're going to have a population requirement, it should be for census urbanized area and not for city proper. Lots of cities have city-proper populations that don't really encompass how many people live there due to the prevalence of suburbs.

That said, I don't think a strict population requirement is a good idea. In the west, you'll have isolated cities that aren't all that big population-wise but act as regional hubs because they're the biggest thing for over 100 miles, so they feel a lot bigger than they are. Places like Elko NV and Richfield UT would fall into that category.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: andrepoiy on July 22, 2022, 01:36:28 PM
Quote from: JustDrive on July 20, 2022, 09:55:53 PM
California is loath to posting out-of-state control cities. Portland, Reno, Las Vegas, Kingman, Phoenix, and Yuma aren't signed until there's absolutely no city of consequence to post. Same with the US routes, with the exception of 6 and 395

Caifornia and Ontario seem to be more and more similar the longer I spend on this forum
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: invincor on July 22, 2022, 02:37:29 PM
Is everyone here aware that there is a YouTube channel specifically dedicated to the topic of this thread?  It's by a man named Todd and the channel is called "Control City Freak" and he posts a new video every week.  He's going through all the Interstate highways, in numerical order, one-by-one, and this week's new video was about the eastern I-76. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 22, 2022, 03:03:17 PM
Quote from: JustDrive on July 20, 2022, 09:55:53 PM
California is loath to posting out-of-state control cities. Portland, Reno, Las Vegas, Kingman, Phoenix, and Yuma aren't signed until there's absolutely no city of consequence to post. Same with the US routes, with the exception of 6 and 395
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7102081,-115.4002559,3a,39.3y,166.36h,94.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQPnVgv0WmQZtE-peYk560g!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DQPnVgv0WmQZtE-peYk560g%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D179.18895%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Blythe is bad. Phoenix should be used east of Palm Springs.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Brandon on July 22, 2022, 03:38:18 PM
Quote from: invincor on July 22, 2022, 02:37:29 PM
Is everyone here aware that there is a YouTube channel specifically dedicated to the topic of this thread?  It's by a man named Todd and the channel is called "Control City Freak" and he posts a new video every week.  He's going through all the Interstate highways, in numerical order, one-by-one, and this week's new video was about the eastern I-76. 

Saw it, and all I can say is...

Valley Forge, ugh.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on July 22, 2022, 07:16:41 PM
Quote from: invincor on July 22, 2022, 02:37:29 PM
Is everyone here aware that there is a YouTube channel specifically dedicated to the topic of this thread?  It's by a man named Todd and the channel is called "Control City Freak" and he posts a new video every week.  He's going through all the Interstate highways, in numerical order, one-by-one, and this week's new video was about the eastern I-76.
They're a member of this forum.

Thread for the channel: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30194.0

Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hbelkins on July 22, 2022, 07:57:36 PM
If you go by that population and mileage guideline, would there be any control cities between Louisville and Richmond on I-64?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on July 22, 2022, 09:05:37 PM
Quote from: US 89 on July 22, 2022, 11:47:35 AM
If you're going to have a population requirement, it should be for census urbanized area and not for city proper. Lots of cities have city-proper populations that don't really encompass how many people live there due to the prevalence of suburbs.

That said, I don't think a strict population requirement is a good idea. In the west, you'll have isolated cities that aren't all that big population-wise but act as regional hubs because they're the biggest thing for over 100 miles, so they feel a lot bigger than they are. Places like Elko NV and Richfield UT would fall into that category.
That's like Saginaw in Michigan which is a control city on I-75. The city today has a population of 44,202 (down from a peak of 98,265 in 1960), Saginaw Township which is right next to the city has a population of 41,679. So you look at that 44,202 and think Saginaw's not real big which it really isn't but it has an Urban population of right around 125,000 and a county population of about 190,000. Saginaw County is an above average county in land area for Michigan though it's 800 square miles. most of the population lives in the Saginaw Urban Area though.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: jaehak on July 22, 2022, 11:20:03 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2022, 07:16:41 PM
Quote from: invincor on July 22, 2022, 02:37:29 PM
Is everyone here aware that there is a YouTube channel specifically dedicated to the topic of this thread?  It's by a man named Todd and the channel is called "Control City Freak" and he posts a new video every week.  He's going through all the Interstate highways, in numerical order, one-by-one, and this week's new video was about the eastern I-76.
They're a member of this forum.

Thread for the channel: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30194.0

Yep, that's me!
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Brandon on July 23, 2022, 12:26:37 AM
Quote from: jaehak on July 22, 2022, 11:20:03 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2022, 07:16:41 PM
Quote from: invincor on July 22, 2022, 02:37:29 PM
Is everyone here aware that there is a YouTube channel specifically dedicated to the topic of this thread?  It's by a man named Todd and the channel is called "Control City Freak" and he posts a new video every week.  He's going through all the Interstate highways, in numerical order, one-by-one, and this week's new video was about the eastern I-76.
They're a member of this forum.

Thread for the channel: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30194.0

Yep, that's me!

And I can't wait for I-80.  It has Wyoming, Nebraska, Pennsylvania, and Elko.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: amroad17 on July 23, 2022, 06:05:17 AM
^ And Del Water Gap!
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ilpt4u on July 23, 2022, 07:59:47 AM
Not to mention Illinois's use of "Iowa"  and "Indiana"  for I-80, so throw in some Control "States"  for I-80 as well
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on July 23, 2022, 08:03:39 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 23, 2022, 07:59:47 AM
Not to mention Illinois's use of "Iowa"  and "Indiana"  for I-80, so throw in some Control "States"  for I-80 as well
Also "Ohio"  going EB on the Indiana Toll Road, and "Thru Traffic"  on the Ohio Turnpike.

Sucks that you have one road ruining the otherwise perfect control cities on interstates elsewhere in both states.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ilpt4u on July 23, 2022, 08:08:50 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 23, 2022, 08:03:39 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 23, 2022, 07:59:47 AM
Not to mention Illinois's use of "Iowa"  and "Indiana"  for I-80, so throw in some Control "States"  for I-80 as well
Also "Ohio"  going EB on the Indiana Toll Road, and "Thru Traffic"  on the Ohio Turnpike.

Sucks that you have one road ruining the otherwise perfect control cities on interstates elsewhere in both states.
I forgot about "Ohio"  on the ITR, but it certainly is. And "Thru Traffic"  on the Ohio Turnpike is hilarious  :bigass: Always loved it!

Indiana isn't quite perfect (yet) on Controls, until they install NB Controls for the Southern Indiana I-69 segment. It is well past time to post "Indianapolis"  and add mileage signs in Southwestern Indiana along I-69, instead of the _____________ space on the BGSs
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on July 23, 2022, 10:15:33 PM
There is no actual Interstate-to-Interstate interchange for southern I-69 with I-465 or any other Indianapolis freeway yet, so at least for now I'm ok with Indianapolis being left off of the existing parts of southern Indiana I-69.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: US20IL64 on July 24, 2022, 12:49:15 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 11:01:28 PM
Gary certainly is not a good choice for a control city in the Chicago area.

Correct.

Indiana is fine, since it's once past the state line, there are many forks to differing parts of IN. Gary is a shrunken city, like East St. Louis. Iowa is OK too, general sense of direction. Once, the BGS at I-55 and 80 had Des Moines and Toledo, and my father thought they were too far away.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on July 24, 2022, 02:16:34 AM
Quote from: US20IL64 on July 24, 2022, 12:49:15 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 13, 2021, 11:01:28 PM
Gary certainly is not a good choice for a control city in the Chicago area.

Correct.

Indiana is fine, since it's once past the state line, there are many forks to differing parts of IN. Gary is a shrunken city, like East St. Louis. Iowa is OK too, general sense of direction. Once, the BGS at I-55 and 80 had Des Moines and Toledo, and my father thought they were too far away.
I'm fine with "Indiana"  and "Wisconsin"  as I-90 and I-94 enter both states at different points, and at least one of them enter at a corner, with routes radiating to the rest of both states. In my mind, "Indiana"  also indirectly notes the connection with I-65 and Indianapolis. Otoh, "Iowa"  is too broad for me, like I don't think the fastest route from Chicago to Dubuque is via I-80, for example. Might as well post "other Plains Cities"  at that point. Similar case for "Ohio"  on the ITR (ignores the entire southern 4/5 of the state).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 24, 2022, 02:53:27 AM
Quote from: jaehak on July 22, 2022, 11:20:03 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2022, 07:16:41 PM
Quote from: invincor on July 22, 2022, 02:37:29 PM
Is everyone here aware that there is a YouTube channel specifically dedicated to the topic of this thread?  It's by a man named Todd and the channel is called "Control City Freak" and he posts a new video every week.  He's going through all the Interstate highways, in numerical order, one-by-one, and this week's new video was about the eastern I-76.
They're a member of this forum.

Thread for the channel: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30194.0

Yep, that's me!
Can't wait to see your thoughts on New England! Current binging your series, on I-20 now.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on July 24, 2022, 02:58:48 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 11:18:50 AM
Quote from: thspfc on April 13, 2021, 11:16:49 AM
Best: Michigan, Wisconsin, Florida, Kentucky, Ohio, Tennessee, Missouri
Worst: Pennsylvania, Minnesota, California

I choose to believe that Pennsylvania's control cities are satirical.

It should be noted that control cities are easier for some states than others, because some states don't have many large cities.
If a state doesn't have large in-state cities, post out-of-state cities.
And like that, Limon and Burlington CO go *poof*. I mean, there wasn't much there anyway... remarkably, both are prison towns.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on July 24, 2022, 09:26:54 AM
Quote from: jaehak on July 22, 2022, 11:20:03 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2022, 07:16:41 PM
Quote from: invincor on July 22, 2022, 02:37:29 PM
Is everyone here aware that there is a YouTube channel specifically dedicated to the topic of this thread?  It's by a man named Todd and the channel is called "Control City Freak" and he posts a new video every week.  He's going through all the Interstate highways, in numerical order, one-by-one, and this week's new video was about the eastern I-76.
They're a member of this forum.

Thread for the channel: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30194.0

Yep, that's me!
I just watched the one for I-75 NB everything from the 10 minute mark on up looks totally familiar.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 24, 2022, 10:58:20 AM
Quote from: JustDrive on July 20, 2022, 09:55:53 PM
California is loath to posting out-of-state control cities. Portland, Reno, Las Vegas, Kingman, Phoenix, and Yuma aren't signed until there's absolutely no city of consequence to post. Same with the US routes, with the exception of 6 and 395

And as far as in-state control cities, California is even hesitant to sign Los Angeles on I-40 west.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on July 24, 2022, 12:09:29 PM
Pennsylvania has gotten a little better by signing "New York"  on I-95 heading north from Philadelphia now that the Turnpike/95 connection is partially complete. Not that Trenton was that bad.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SP Cook on July 24, 2022, 01:05:24 PM
If I signed WV:

Interstates:

64 - Lexington-Huntington-Charleston-Beckley-(single sign at 64-77 split for Richmond) - Lexington, VA
68 - (sign at 79 junction for Pittsburgh-Charleston)   Morgantown- Cumberland (Maryland should sign "To I-70/Baltimore/Washington" from that point)
70 - Columbus - Wheeling - Washington, PA
77 - Wytheville - Bluefield - (single sign at 77-64 split for Charlotte) - Beckley - Charleston (single sign at 77-79 split for Cleveland) - Parkersburg - Cleveland
79 - Charleston - (single sign at 77-79 split for Pittsburgh) - Morgantown - Pittsburgh
81 - Harrisburg, PA - Martinsburg - Roanoke
470 - Wheeling Bypass/Columbus/ To I 70 West - Wheeling Bypass/Washington, PA/ To I 70 East/To Pennsylvania Turnpike

Corridors:

D/US 50 - Cincinnati - Parkersburg/I-77 - Clarksburg/I-79
G/US 119 - Pikeville - Logan - Charleston
H/US 48 (when completed)- (sign the Weston exit for "New Route to Washington, DC") - Weston/I-79 - Elkins - Front Royal/I-66/81
L/US 19 - (supplemental sign at the exit "Morgantown") -Beckley/I-64/77 - New River Gorge National Park and Preserve/Sutton - Sutton/I-79 (sign the exit Beckley/New River Gorge National Park and Preserve/Direct Route South)
Q/US 460 - Grundy - Bluefield - Princeton - Blacksburg, VA

Other 4 lane through routes:

US 19/Z-Way - Bypass - To I-64 - Ghent/To I-77
US 22 - Cambridge, OH - Weirton - Pittsburgh
US 33 - Supplemental sign at exit "Columbus" - Columbus
US 35 - Supplemental sign at exit "Cincinnati-Dayton-Columbus" Charleston/I-64 - Point Pleasant - Ohio
US 52/ King Coal Highway - (if ever built) Bluefield/I-77 - Welch - Williamson - Kenova/I-64
US 121/ Coalfields Expressway - (if ever built) Beckley/I-64/77 - Welch - Grundy
US 340 - Berryville - Charles Town - Frederick, MD/I-70/470
US 522 - Winchester/I-81 - Berkeley Springs/To I-68/70 - Hancock/To I-68/70
WV 9 - Martinsburg - Charles Town - Leesburg
WV 10 (if ever completed) (swap WV 10 and WV 73 between US 119 and Logan) - Charleston/To US 119 - Logan - Man- Gilbert/To US 52
Ghent Connector (if ever built) Ghent/To I-77 - Welch/To - US 52

Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on July 24, 2022, 01:48:03 PM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on July 24, 2022, 02:58:48 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 11:18:50 AM
Quote from: thspfc on April 13, 2021, 11:16:49 AM
Best: Michigan, Wisconsin, Florida, Kentucky, Ohio, Tennessee, Missouri
Worst: Pennsylvania, Minnesota, California

I choose to believe that Pennsylvania's control cities are satirical.

It should be noted that control cities are easier for some states than others, because some states don't have many large cities.
If a state doesn't have large in-state cities, post out-of-state cities.
And like that, Limon and Burlington CO go *poof*. I mean, there wasn't much there anyway... remarkably, both are prison towns.

A hard-core roadgeek commits a crime and is sentenced to jail. "You're going to Limon for a long time," says the judge.

"Objection, your honor," the roadgeek says. "Wouldn't it be better if I went to Denver or Topeka for a long time?"
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 24, 2022, 02:33:57 PM
Quote from: JustDrive on July 21, 2022, 06:50:16 PM

I think a lot of it has to do with the old US highway junctions. I-40 (old 66) east of Barstow intersects its next US highway in Needles. I-10 (old 60/70/99) intersected US 91/395 in San Bernardino, and I-8 (old 80) used to intersect US 99 in El Centro.

Most of the control cities in New Mexico also have to do with old US highway junctions, as well as the fact that the old US highways went right through these small towns.  Albuquerque currently doesn't have US highways serving the city.  However, I-40 (former 66) intersects US 491 (former 666) in Gallup, then intersects US 285 at Clines Corners (that wasn't even used as a control city on 66).  I-40 then intersects both US 54 and US 84 in Santa Rosa; then I-40 and US 54 run concurrently until Tucumcari where 54 splits to go to the Texas and Oklahoma panhandles and on to Wichita, Kansas.  Grants was the control city on I-40 west from Albuquerque prior to the early 2000s, even though there's no junction with a US highway; US 66 only went through that town before I-40 bypassed it sometime in the 1970s.

I-25 (former 85) starts at I-10 and intersects US 70 in Las Cruces, then intersects US 60 at Socorro; however, US 85 started in El Paso (and is still signed there - it's only unsigned when running concurrently I-10 and I-25).  Both 25 and 60 run concurrently until about 17 miles south of Belen where 60 splits to go east.  Once north of Albuquerque, I-25 intersects US 550 (formerly NM 44) in Bernalillo.  In Santa Fe, there's a junction with US 84/285; however, motorists headed towards Española or Los Alamos coming from Albuquerque usually get off the interstate at Exit 276 and use NM 599 to get to US 84/285, completely bypassing Santa Fe.  The next US highway junction is with 84 just 3 miles south of the town of Las Vegas, then with US 412 in Springer; and finally, I-25 intersects US 64 and 87 in Raton.

Belen also used to be the southbound control city on I-25 south from Albuquerque before the 2000s.

I-10 (old 80) intersects US 70 in Lordsburg, then intersects US 180 in Deming.  And 70 splits from I-10 in Las Cruces to go to Alamogordo and Roswell while the interstate turns south to go to El Paso.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: US 89 on July 24, 2022, 02:35:48 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 24, 2022, 02:33:57 PM
Albuquerque currently doesn't have US highways serving the city.

It does still have US 85. NM just likes to pretend that doesn't exist.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 24, 2022, 02:51:44 PM
Quote from: US 89 on July 24, 2022, 02:35:48 PM


It does still have US 85. NM just likes to pretend that doesn't exist.

The interesting thing with US 85 was that the route itself wasn't decommissioned unlike some other US routes like US 66, US 80 west of Dallas, or US 60 west of Arizona.  It's just that it's unsigned when it runs concurrently with I-25 and a short stretch of I-10.
Heck, even it's not signed anymore on certain city streets in Santa Fe and Albuquerque; and instead it's signed as Business Loop I-25 in Truth or Consequences, Socorro, Belen, Las Vegas, Springer, and Raton.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on July 24, 2022, 03:06:32 PM
Quote from: US 89 on July 24, 2022, 02:35:48 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 24, 2022, 02:33:57 PM
Albuquerque currently doesn't have US highways serving the city.

It does still have US 85. NM just likes to pretend that doesn't exist.
It's because of some lame policy of NMDOT's. They only sign the route of greater significance while leaving the route of lesser significance unsigned. Doesn't make since to me. Michigan has a 73 mile concurrency with I-75 and US-23 and they are both well signed all the way through the concurrency. No one ever calls it 75 and 23 or 75/23, it just gets called I-75 but it is signed. I think MDOT does pretty well with signage.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 24, 2022, 03:12:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 24, 2022, 03:06:32 PM
Quote from: US 89 on July 24, 2022, 02:35:48 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 24, 2022, 02:33:57 PM
Albuquerque currently doesn't have US highways serving the city.

It does still have US 85. NM just likes to pretend that doesn't exist.
It's because of some lame policy of NMDOT's. They only sign the route of greater significance while leaving the route of lesser significance unsigned. Doesn't make since to me. Michigan has a 73 mile concurrency with I-75 and US-23 and they are both well signed all the way through the concurrency. No one ever calls it 75 and 23 or 75/23, it just gets called I-75 but it is signed. I think MDOT does pretty well with signage.

However, US 60 is signed on a 21 mile stretch of I-25 from Socorro until 60 splits from the interstate about midpoint between Socorro and Belen.  But that's the only exception.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1049382,-106.9010815,3a,75y,341.79h,88.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn8HwagiDHZZHwIiJouqnDA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Even Colorado doesn't sign US 85 along I-25...until you're north of Denver.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hbelkins on July 24, 2022, 09:10:59 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on July 24, 2022, 01:05:24 PM
77 - Wytheville - Bluefield - (single sign at 77-64 split for Charlotte) - Beckley - Charleston (single sign at 77-79 split for Cleveland) - Parkersburg - Cleveland
79 - Charleston - (single sign at 77-79 split for Pittsburgh) - Morgantown - Pittsburgh

Any particular reason you'd use Parkersburg for I-77 but not Clarksburg for I-79?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on July 25, 2022, 09:32:46 AM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 24, 2022, 03:12:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 24, 2022, 03:06:32 PM
Quote from: US 89 on July 24, 2022, 02:35:48 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 24, 2022, 02:33:57 PM
Albuquerque currently doesn't have US highways serving the city.

It does still have US 85. NM just likes to pretend that doesn't exist.
It's because of some lame policy of NMDOT's. They only sign the route of greater significance while leaving the route of lesser significance unsigned. Doesn't make since to me. Michigan has a 73 mile concurrency with I-75 and US-23 and they are both well signed all the way through the concurrency. No one ever calls it 75 and 23 or 75/23, it just gets called I-75 but it is signed. I think MDOT does pretty well with signage.

However, US 60 is signed on a 21 mile stretch of I-25 from Socorro until 60 splits from the interstate about midpoint between Socorro and Belen.  But that's the only exception.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1049382,-106.9010815,3a,75y,341.79h,88.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn8HwagiDHZZHwIiJouqnDA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Even Colorado doesn't sign US 85 along I-25...until you're north of Denver.

In New Mexico, the shorter duplexes are signed.
https://goo.gl/maps/AaqUdnD7RPRvZMAA7 (https://goo.gl/maps/AaqUdnD7RPRvZMAA7)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SP Cook on July 25, 2022, 09:49:27 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 24, 2022, 09:10:59 PM

Any particular reason you'd use Parkersburg for I-77 but not Clarksburg for I-79?

Well, several.  Clarksburg is not a place most out of state motorists have ever heard of, and is probably no one's destination.  Yes, it is a junction with a Corridor, but so is Weston.  It is now under 15K population and economically insignificant.  Morgantown, most people have heard of because of WVU, and it has a population of over 30K, now the 3rd largest city in the state.  Meanwhile Parkersburg is 4th, just slightly below Morgantown, and there is nothing else to use north of it that is any better until you get to Akron or Cleveland or such, which is too far.  More people have heard of Parkersburg.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hbelkins on July 25, 2022, 03:31:18 PM
I'd use Cambridge, Ohio, north of Charleston, since it's where I-77 and I-70 cross. Although to be truthful, I doubt a whole lot of traffic makes the transition from one interstate to the other there, unless that's the preferred route for traffic between Charleston and Wheeling.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on July 25, 2022, 04:10:13 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on July 25, 2022, 09:49:27 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 24, 2022, 09:10:59 PM

Any particular reason you'd use Parkersburg for I-77 but not Clarksburg for I-79?

Well, several.  Clarksburg is not a place most out of state motorists have ever heard of, and is probably no one's destination.  Yes, it is a junction with a Corridor, but so is Weston.  It is now under 15K population and economically insignificant.  Morgantown, most people have heard of because of WVU, and it has a population of over 30K, now the 3rd largest city in the state.  Meanwhile Parkersburg is 4th, just slightly below Morgantown, and there is nothing else to use north of it that is any better until you get to Akron or Cleveland or such, which is too far.  More people have heard of Parkersburg.
Why does it matter if out of state motorists have ever heard of the place? Morgantown does make more sense but I was just wondering why it matters if out of state motorists have ever heard of it. These states that use more in state control cities as long as they can probably have several examples of cities out of state motorists have heard of. I mean I guess I can kind of see what you are getting at but if it's a regional Interstate then smaller control cities will probably be used.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Rothman on July 25, 2022, 04:21:28 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 25, 2022, 04:10:13 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on July 25, 2022, 09:49:27 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 24, 2022, 09:10:59 PM

Any particular reason you'd use Parkersburg for I-77 but not Clarksburg for I-79?

Well, several.  Clarksburg is not a place most out of state motorists have ever heard of, and is probably no one's destination.  Yes, it is a junction with a Corridor, but so is Weston.  It is now under 15K population and economically insignificant.  Morgantown, most people have heard of because of WVU, and it has a population of over 30K, now the 3rd largest city in the state.  Meanwhile Parkersburg is 4th, just slightly below Morgantown, and there is nothing else to use north of it that is any better until you get to Akron or Cleveland or such, which is too far.  More people have heard of Parkersburg.
Why does it matter if out of state motorists have ever heard of the place? Morgantown does make more sense but I was just wondering why it matters if out of state motorists have ever heard of it. These states that use more in state control cities as long as they can probably have several examples of cities out of state motorists have heard of. I mean I guess I can kind of see what you are getting at but if it's a regional Interstate then smaller control cities will probably be used.
Because locals tend to inflate the importance of their dinky, insignificant towns.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on July 25, 2022, 05:05:48 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 25, 2022, 04:10:13 PM
Why does it matter if out of state motorists have ever heard of the place?

If you're in-state you probably have a decent enough idea of where you're going to not need a control city in the first place.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: fillup420 on July 25, 2022, 06:05:00 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 13, 2021, 11:44:26 AM

NC is bad with many interchanges on the same freeway using different places. One notable  place is Asheville using Hickory on I-26 and I-240 (west end), Statesville on I-240 (East end), and Black Mountain from the Tunnel Road Connector all for the same I-40 EB ramps. Then Greensboro was also used on a mileage sign east of I-26.

I-95 using various places too in NC along the stretch from Eastover to Kenly.


I agree that NC can sometimes post cities that don't make a lot of sense. One that always stuck out to me was this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1141216,-80.6930505,3a,75y,145.26h,85.92t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sU__ePPeMZJTPKA_3TE5PKA!2e0!5s20180601T000000!7i13312!8i6656) at US 74/I-485 southern junction. They used the control city on I-85 for northbound, and the control city for I-77 going southbound. It has since been changed to Huntersville and Pineville, which makes sense.

Another 485 strange one is this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3409918,-80.7271784,3a,75y,323.54h,104.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbopeqRy-VTynuGIdWS26zg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). Why sign Spartanburg for 85 south, when it has to go through Charlotte first? From this spot, it would make more sense to direct thru traffic for 85 south to stay on 485 until its southern junction with 85. There is no good reason for Spartanburg-bound traffic to exit 485 and go through downtown Charlotte, when the 485 loop is a great bypass for that part of 85. Also, why sign for 77 south? No one at this spot will be heading this direction to get to 77 south. They would've gone the opposite direction on 485 to meet up with 77 near the SC line.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on July 25, 2022, 06:20:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 25, 2022, 04:10:13 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on July 25, 2022, 09:49:27 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 24, 2022, 09:10:59 PM

Any particular reason you'd use Parkersburg for I-77 but not Clarksburg for I-79?

Well, several.  Clarksburg is not a place most out of state motorists have ever heard of, and is probably no one's destination.  Yes, it is a junction with a Corridor, but so is Weston.  It is now under 15K population and economically insignificant.  Morgantown, most people have heard of because of WVU, and it has a population of over 30K, now the 3rd largest city in the state.  Meanwhile Parkersburg is 4th, just slightly below Morgantown, and there is nothing else to use north of it that is any better until you get to Akron or Cleveland or such, which is too far.  More people have heard of Parkersburg.
Why does it matter if out of state motorists have ever heard of the place? Morgantown does make more sense but I was just wondering why it matters if out of state motorists have ever heard of it. These states that use more in state control cities as long as they can probably have several examples of cities out of state motorists have heard of. I mean I guess I can kind of see what you are getting at but if it's a regional Interstate then smaller control cities will probably be used.

See MUTCD 2E.02

"The development of a signing system for freeways and expressways is approached on the premise that the signing is primarily for the benefit and direction of road users who are not familiar with the route or area."

While that's not exactly the same thing as in state vs out of state, it's more likely for out of state users to be non-familiar vs. in state users.

Not sure why you think some Interstates are merely "regional". It's a national network
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on July 25, 2022, 06:45:17 PM


Quote from: ran4sh on July 25, 2022, 06:20:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 25, 2022, 04:10:13 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on July 25, 2022, 09:49:27 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 24, 2022, 09:10:59 PM

Any particular reason you'd use Parkersburg for I-77 but not Clarksburg for I-79?

Well, several.  Clarksburg is not a place most out of state motorists have ever heard of, and is probably no one's destination.  Yes, it is a junction with a Corridor, but so is Weston.  It is now under 15K population and economically insignificant.  Morgantown, most people have heard of because of WVU, and it has a population of over 30K, now the 3rd largest city in the state.  Meanwhile Parkersburg is 4th, just slightly below Morgantown, and there is nothing else to use north of it that is any better until you get to Akron or Cleveland or such, which is too far.  More people have heard of Parkersburg.
Why does it matter if out of state motorists have ever heard of the place? Morgantown does make more sense but I was just wondering why it matters if out of state motorists have ever heard of it. These states that use more in state control cities as long as they can probably have several examples of cities out of state motorists have heard of. I mean I guess I can kind of see what you are getting at but if it's a regional Interstate then smaller control cities will probably be used.

See MUTCD 2E.02

"The development of a signing system for freeways and expressways is approached on the premise that the signing is primarily for the benefit and direction of road users who are not familiar with the route or area."

While that's not exactly the same thing as in state vs out of state, it's more likely for out of state users to be non-familiar vs. in state users.

Not sure why you think some Interstates are merely "regional". It's a national network

It doesn't matter how big a city is or if people have heard of it out of state. Control cities exist as guidance along a route and the states choose the control cities anyway.

And that's because some interstates are regional. I-96 is most certainly regional, I-39, 41 and 43 are all regional. No kidding it's a national network that doesn't mean every interstate is a nationwide interstate.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on July 25, 2022, 06:48:08 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 25, 2022, 04:21:28 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 25, 2022, 04:10:13 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on July 25, 2022, 09:49:27 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 24, 2022, 09:10:59 PM

Any particular reason you'd use Parkersburg for I-77 but not Clarksburg for I-79?

Well, several.  Clarksburg is not a place most out of state motorists have ever heard of, and is probably no one's destination.  Yes, it is a junction with a Corridor, but so is Weston.  It is now under 15K population and economically insignificant.  Morgantown, most people have heard of because of WVU, and it has a population of over 30K, now the 3rd largest city in the state.  Meanwhile Parkersburg is 4th, just slightly below Morgantown, and there is nothing else to use north of it that is any better until you get to Akron or Cleveland or such, which is too far.  More people have heard of Parkersburg.
Why does it matter if out of state motorists have ever heard of the place? Morgantown does make more sense but I was just wondering why it matters if out of state motorists have ever heard of it. These states that use more in state control cities as long as they can probably have several examples of cities out of state motorists have heard of. I mean I guess I can kind of see what you are getting at but if it's a regional Interstate then smaller control cities will probably be used.
Because locals tend to inflate the importance of their dinky, insignificant towns.
I think it the town is at a major junction that usiys a good enough choice for a control city. Like Statesville, NC being the junction of I-77 and I-40. On a nationwide scale 77 might not be a major route but it is in Ohio, the Virginia's and the Carolinas.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on July 25, 2022, 08:45:52 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 25, 2022, 06:48:08 PM
I think it the town is at a major junction that usiys a good enough choice for a control city. Like Statesville, NC being the junction of I-77 and I-40. On a nationwide scale 77 might not be a major route but it is in Ohio, the Virginia's and the Carolinas.
In that case, would you prefer Cambridge to be used as a control city on I-70 and I-77 as it's the junction of those two interstates over what they currently use heading towards it (Wheeling for I-70 EB, Columbus for I-70 WB, Cleveland for I-77 NB, Marietta for I-77 SB)?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Gnutella on July 26, 2022, 04:24:23 AM
The main problem in Pennsylvania is that many of the Interstates do not directly serve the major cities, and many of the junctions are closest to small towns. This is why I believe that multiple control cities can be useful. Here's how I'd use them:


I-70 EB

West Virginia state line to I-79: Pittsburgh
I-79 to Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-76): Baltimore/Washington DC
Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-76) concurrency: Harrisburg/Philadelphia/Baltimore/Washington DC
Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-76) to Maryland state line: Baltimore/Washington DC

I-70 WB

Maryland state line to Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-76): Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania Turnpike concurrency (I-76): Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-76) to West Virginia state line: Wheeling/Columbus

Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-76) EB

Ohio state line to I-79: Pittsburgh
I-79 to I-70: Harrisburg/Philadelphia
I-70 concurrency: Harrisburg/Philadelphia/Baltimore/Washington DC
I-70 to I-83: Harrisburg/Philadelphia
I-83 to I-676: Philadelphia
I-676 to PA 291: Philadelphia Int'l Airport
PA 291 to New Jersey state line: Gloucester City/Atlantic City

Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-76) WB

New Jersey state line to I-95: Philadelphia Int'l Airport/Philadelphia
I-95 to I-676: Center City Philadelphia
I-676 to I-283: Harrisburg/Pittsburgh
I-283 to I-70: Pittsburgh
I-70 concurrency: Pittsburgh
I-70 to I-376: Pittsburgh
I-376 to Ohio state line: Youngstown/Cleveland

I-78 EB

I-81 to Pennsylvania Turnpike Northeast Extension (I-476)/U.S. 22: Allentown/Bethlehem/New York
Pennsylvania Turnpike Northeast Extension (I-476)/U.S. 22 to New Jersey state line: New York

I-78 WB

New Jersey state line to PA 378: Bethlehem/Allentown/Harrisburg
PA 378 to PA 309: Allentown/Harrisburg
PA 309 to I-81: Harrisburg

I-79 NB

West Virginia state line to I-376: Pittsburgh
I-376 to I-90: Erie/Buffalo
I-90 to U.S. 20: Erie
U.S. 20 to terminus: Downtown Erie

I-79 SB

Terminus to I-279: Pittsburgh
I-279 to I-79: Morgantown/Wheeling/Columbus
I-79 to West Virginia state line: Morgantown/Charleston

I-80 EB

Ohio state line to I-99: State College/New York
Future I-99 concurrency: Williamsport/Rochester/New York
Future I-99 to I-81: Wilkes-Barre/Scranton/New York
I-81 to New Jersey state line: New York

I-80 WB

New Jersey state line to I-380: Scranton/Wilkes-Barre
I-380 to PA 115: Wilkes-Barre
PA 115 to I-180: Williamsport/State College
I-180 to I-99: State College
Future I-99 concurrency: State College
I-99 to Ohio state line: Youngstown/Cleveland

I-81 NB

Maryland state line to I-83: Harrisburg
I-83 to I-78: Wilkes-Barre/Scranton/Allentown/New York
I-78 to PA 309: Wilkes-Barre/Scranton
PA 309 to PA 307: Scranton
PA 307 to New York state line: Binghamton/Syracuse

I-81 SB

New York state line to U.S. 6/U.S. 11: Scranton/Wilkes-Barre
U.S. 6/U.S. 11 to PA 115: Wilkes-Barre
PA 115 to I-83: Harrisburg
I-83 to Maryland state line: Hagerstown/Martinsburg

I-83 NB

Maryland state line to I-83 Business: York/Harrisburg
I-83 Business to PA 581: Harrisburg
PA 581 to 2nd Street: Downtown Harrisburg
2nd Street to I-283: Hershey/Lebanon/Reading
I-283 to I-81: Wilkes-Barre/Scranton

I-83 SB

I-81 to I-283: Harrisburg/Baltimore
I-283 to 2nd Street: Downtown Harrisburg/Baltimore
2nd Street to I-83 Business: York/Baltimore
I-83 Business to Maryland state line: Baltimore

I-84 EB

I-81 to New York state line: Newburgh/Hartford

I-84 WB

New York state line to I-81: Scranton/Wilkes-Barre

I-86 EB

I-90 to New York state line: Jamestown/Elmira

I-86 WB

New York state line to I-90: Erie/Cleveland

I-90 EB

Ohio state line to I-79: Erie/Buffalo
I-79 to New York state line: Buffalo

I-90 WB

New York state line to PA 430: Erie/Cleveland
PA 430 to Ohio state line: Cleveland

I-95 NB

Delaware state line to I-476: Philadelphia
I-476 to Philadelphia International Airport: Philadelphia Int'l Airport/Philadelphia
Philadelphia International Airport to I-676: Center City Philadelphia
I-676 to I-476: Trenton/New York
I-476 to New Jersey state line: New York

I-95 SB

New Jersey state line to Betsy Ross Bridge: Philadelphia
Betsy Ross Bridge to I-676: Center City Philadelphia
I-676 to Philadelphia International Airport: Philadelphia Int'l Airport/Wilmington/Baltimore/Washington DC
Philadelphia International Airport to Delaware state line: Wilmington/Baltimore/Washington DC

I-99 NB

Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-70/I-76) to 17th Street: Altoona/State College
17th Street to U.S 322 Business: State College
U.S. 322 Business to I-80: Williamsport/Rochester
Future I-80 concurrency: Williamsport/Rochester
I-80 to I-180: Williamsport/Rochester
I-180 to New York state line: Rochester

I-99 SB

New York state line to I-180: Williamsport/State College
I-180 to I-80: State College
Future I-80 concurrency: State College
I-80 to U.S 322: State College
U.S. 322 to 17th Street: Altoona/Pittsburgh
17th Street to U.S. 22: Bedford/Pittsburgh
U.S. 22 to Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-76): Bedford

I-176 NB

PA Turnpike (I-76) to U.S 422: Reading

I-176 SB

U.S. 422 to Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-76): PA Turnpike

I-180 EB

Future I-99 to I-80: Milton/Harrisburg

I-180 WB

I-80 to future I-99: Williamsport

I-276 EB

I-76 to I-95: Trenton/New York

I-276 WB

I-95 to I-76: Harrisburg/Pittsburgh

I-279 NB

I-376 to I-579: [none]
I-579 to I-79: Wexford/Erie

I-279 SB

I-79 to U.S. 19: Pittsburgh
U.S. 19 to I-579: Downtown Pittsburgh
I-579 to I-376: Carnegie/Pittsburgh Int'l Airport

I-283 NB

Pennsylvania Turnpike to I-83: Harrisburg

I-283 SB

I-83 to Pennsylvania Turnpike: Lancaster

I-295 NB

I-95 to New Jersey state line: Trenton

I-295 SB

New Jersey state line to I-95: Philadelphia

I-376 EB

I-80 to U.S. 422: New Castle/Pittsburgh
U.S. 422 to PA 68: Beaver/Pittsburgh
PA 68 to Pittsburgh International Airport: Pittsburgh Int'l Airport/Pittsburgh
Pittsburgh International Airport to PA 121: Pittsburgh
PA 121 to I-279: Downtown Pittsburgh
I-279 to Forbes Avenue: Univ of Pittsburgh/Carnegie Mellon Univ
Forbes Avenue to PA 791: Penn Hills/Monroeville
PA 791 to PA 48: Monroeville
PA 48 to U.S. 22: Altoona/State College
U.S. 22 to Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-76): Harrisburg/Philadelphia

I-376 WB

Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-76) to Braddock Avenue: Pittsburgh
Braddock Avenue to Bates Street: Univ of Pittsburgh/Carnegie Mellon Univ/Downtown Pittsburgh
Bates Street to Stanwix Street: Downtown Pittsburgh
Stanwix Street to PA 50: Carnegie/Pittsburgh Int'l Airport
PA 50 to U.S. 22/U.S. 30: Weirton/Pittsburgh Int'l Airport
U.S. 22/U.S. 30 to Pittsburgh International Airport: Pittsburgh Int'l Airport
Pittsburgh International Airport to PA 68: Beaver/New Castle
PA 68 to U.S. 224: New Castle
U.S. 224 to I-80: Sharon

I-380 EB

I-84 to I-80: East Stroudsburg/New York

I-380 WB

I-80 to I-84: Scranton

I-476 NB

I-95 to Ridge Pike: Norristown/Allentown
Ridge Pike to U.S. 22: Allentown
U.S. 22 to PA 115: Wilkes-Barre/Scranton
PA 115 to I-81: Scranton
I-81 to I-81: Binghamton/Syracuse

I-476 SB

I-81 to I-81: Wilkes-Barre/Philadelphia
I-81 to U.S. 22: Allentown/Philadelphia
U.S. 22 to I-76: Philadelphia
I-76 to I-95: Philadelphia Int'l Airport/Wilmington/Baltimore/Washington DC

I-579 NB

Boulevard of the Allies to I-279: [none]

I-579 SB

I-279 to Boulevard of the Allies: TO I-376 East/Univ of Pittsburgh/Carnegie Mellon Univ

I-676 EB

I-76 to I-95: [none]
I-95 to New Jersey state line: Camden/Atlantic City

I-676 WB

New Jersey state line to I-95: Center City Philadelphia
I-95 to I-76: [none]
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: packerhawk24 on July 26, 2022, 04:47:44 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 23, 2022, 08:08:50 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 23, 2022, 08:03:39 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 23, 2022, 07:59:47 AM
Not to mention Illinois's use of "Iowa"  and "Indiana"  for I-80, so throw in some Control "States"  for I-80 as well
Also "Ohio"  going EB on the Indiana Toll Road, and "Thru Traffic"  on the Ohio Turnpike.

Sucks that you have one road ruining the otherwise perfect control cities on interstates elsewhere in both states.
I forgot about "Ohio"  on the ITR, but it certainly is. And "Thru Traffic"  on the Ohio Turnpike is hilarious  :bigass: Always loved it!



I like how "Toledo" got used as far west as Joliet on that route, yet "Cleveland" never is until you're in Toledo itself.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SEWIGuy on July 26, 2022, 10:21:20 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 25, 2022, 06:45:17 PM


Quote from: ran4sh on July 25, 2022, 06:20:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 25, 2022, 04:10:13 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on July 25, 2022, 09:49:27 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 24, 2022, 09:10:59 PM

Any particular reason you'd use Parkersburg for I-77 but not Clarksburg for I-79?

Well, several.  Clarksburg is not a place most out of state motorists have ever heard of, and is probably no one's destination.  Yes, it is a junction with a Corridor, but so is Weston.  It is now under 15K population and economically insignificant.  Morgantown, most people have heard of because of WVU, and it has a population of over 30K, now the 3rd largest city in the state.  Meanwhile Parkersburg is 4th, just slightly below Morgantown, and there is nothing else to use north of it that is any better until you get to Akron or Cleveland or such, which is too far.  More people have heard of Parkersburg.
Why does it matter if out of state motorists have ever heard of the place? Morgantown does make more sense but I was just wondering why it matters if out of state motorists have ever heard of it. These states that use more in state control cities as long as they can probably have several examples of cities out of state motorists have heard of. I mean I guess I can kind of see what you are getting at but if it's a regional Interstate then smaller control cities will probably be used.

See MUTCD 2E.02

"The development of a signing system for freeways and expressways is approached on the premise that the signing is primarily for the benefit and direction of road users who are not familiar with the route or area."

While that's not exactly the same thing as in state vs out of state, it's more likely for out of state users to be non-familiar vs. in state users.

Not sure why you think some Interstates are merely "regional". It's a national network

It doesn't matter how big a city is or if people have heard of it out of state. Control cities exist as guidance along a route and the states choose the control cities anyway.



I would guess the correlation of a city being big, and how well it is known, is a pretty strong one.  I can think of a few examples, mainly touristy areas, but I think if given a choice, picking the larger city makes the most sense.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hbelkins on July 26, 2022, 12:39:22 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 25, 2022, 08:45:52 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 25, 2022, 06:48:08 PM
I think it the town is at a major junction that usiys a good enough choice for a control city. Like Statesville, NC being the junction of I-77 and I-40. On a nationwide scale 77 might not be a major route but it is in Ohio, the Virginia's and the Carolinas.
In that case, would you prefer Cambridge to be used as a control city on I-70 and I-77 as it's the junction of those two interstates over what they currently use heading towards it (Wheeling for I-70 EB, Columbus for I-70 WB, Cleveland for I-77 NB, Marietta for I-77 SB)?

Yes, I would not have issues with Cambridge being used on I-70. And I'd use Akron before Cleveland on I-77 because it's an interstate crossroads in addition to being a decent-sized city.

And I disagree with the use of Marietta, as the main thing there is a bridge crossing the Ohio River.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: dbz77 on July 26, 2022, 06:07:38 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 13, 2021, 03:59:11 PM
I'd nominate Nevada for one of the best. 

I-15: Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City
I-80: Sacramento, Reno, Elko, Salt Lake City

I-11 won't always be Boulder City but it makes sense for now since it doesn't cross the border.

Chris
The use of Los Angeles for I-15 southbound is left over from the Arrowhead Route, which passed through Las Vegas and terminated in Los Angeles.

(Cajon Pass is exactly 200 miles from Las Vegas, and the 15/215 junction is 215 miles, from where the 15 southbound finally departs from the Arrowhead Route for good.)

Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 21, 2022, 06:22:20 PMLet's start with I-40.  Going west from Flagstaff, the control city is Los Angeles but changes to Barstow once you're in California.
It does seem weird that Arizona uses Los Angeles as the control city for I-40 west, as I-40 does not even intersect with a highway that reaches Los Angeles.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: The Nature Boy on July 26, 2022, 06:24:57 PM
Quote from: dbz77 on July 26, 2022, 06:07:38 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 13, 2021, 03:59:11 PM
I'd nominate Nevada for one of the best. 

I-15: Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City
I-80: Sacramento, Reno, Elko, Salt Lake City

I-11 won't always be Boulder City but it makes sense for now since it doesn't cross the border.

Chris
The use of Los Angeles for I-15 southbound is left over from the Arrowhead Route, which passed through Las Vegas and terminated in Los Angeles.

(Cajon Pass is exactly 200 miles from Las Vegas, and the 15/215 junction is 215 miles, from where the 15 southbound finally departs from the Arrowhead Route for good.)

Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 21, 2022, 06:22:20 PMLet's start with I-40.  Going west from Flagstaff, the control city is Los Angeles but changes to Barstow once you're in California.
It does seem weird that Arizona uses Los Angeles as the control city for I-40 west, as I-40 does not even intersect with a highway that reaches Los Angeles.

If you're going to LA from Flagstaff, you would take I-40 west. It makes sense as a way to point you in the right direction. Los Angeles is also more meaningful to long distance travelers than Barstow might be.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kirbykart on July 26, 2022, 08:29:11 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 26, 2022, 06:24:57 PM
Quote from: dbz77 on July 26, 2022, 06:07:38 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 13, 2021, 03:59:11 PM
I'd nominate Nevada for one of the best. 

I-15: Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City
I-80: Sacramento, Reno, Elko, Salt Lake City

I-11 won't always be Boulder City but it makes sense for now since it doesn't cross the border.

Chris
The use of Los Angeles for I-15 southbound is left over from the Arrowhead Route, which passed through Las Vegas and terminated in Los Angeles.

(Cajon Pass is exactly 200 miles from Las Vegas, and the 15/215 junction is 215 miles, from where the 15 southbound finally departs from the Arrowhead Route for good.)

Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 21, 2022, 06:22:20 PMLet's start with I-40.  Going west from Flagstaff, the control city is Los Angeles but changes to Barstow once you're in California.
It does seem weird that Arizona uses Los Angeles as the control city for I-40 west, as I-40 does not even intersect with a highway that reaches Los Angeles.

If you're going to LA from Flagstaff, you would take I-40 west. It makes sense as a way to point you in the right direction. Los Angeles is also more meaningful to long distance travelers than Barstow might be.
Yep, definitely. Barstow is just useless for long-distance traffic on I-40 West, the vast majority of which is heading down I-15 South. I-15 technically doesn't go to Los Angeles, but it serves the city. LA can easily be accessed from I-15 via the large network of 3dis in that area.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SEWIGuy on July 27, 2022, 09:49:02 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 26, 2022, 06:24:57 PM
Quote from: dbz77 on July 26, 2022, 06:07:38 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 13, 2021, 03:59:11 PM
I'd nominate Nevada for one of the best. 

I-15: Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City
I-80: Sacramento, Reno, Elko, Salt Lake City

I-11 won't always be Boulder City but it makes sense for now since it doesn't cross the border.

Chris
The use of Los Angeles for I-15 southbound is left over from the Arrowhead Route, which passed through Las Vegas and terminated in Los Angeles.

(Cajon Pass is exactly 200 miles from Las Vegas, and the 15/215 junction is 215 miles, from where the 15 southbound finally departs from the Arrowhead Route for good.)

Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 21, 2022, 06:22:20 PMLet's start with I-40.  Going west from Flagstaff, the control city is Los Angeles but changes to Barstow once you're in California.
It does seem weird that Arizona uses Los Angeles as the control city for I-40 west, as I-40 does not even intersect with a highway that reaches Los Angeles.

If you're going to LA from Flagstaff, you would take I-40 west. It makes sense as a way to point you in the right direction. Los Angeles is also more meaningful to long distance travelers than Barstow might be.


Right. I don't think a highway needs to actually go to a city to be an effective control city. I actually don't mind states either. I think their purpose is to tell "directionally challenged" people which ramp to use.  So using "Los Angeles" or even "California" for I-40 westbound makes perfect sense to me.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman on July 27, 2022, 11:41:59 AM
Quote from: 1 on July 13, 2022, 12:31:43 PM
And for those following the signs for Green River UT thinking they're going toward Green River WY? (Or avoiding it – "I'm not trying to go toward Wyoming, so this is the wrong way.")

This is exactly why all out of state destinations on signs should include the 2 letter state abbreviation.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman on July 27, 2022, 11:50:40 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on July 16, 2022, 05:12:55 PM
I'm not a fan of how MA uses states and geographical locations as control points; NH-Maine, Cape Cod, and the most egregious, The Islands.

NH-Maine no longer exists as a destination on signs in MA, it's been replaced with Portsmouth NH.  Cape Cod is a logical control destination, as it's immediately recognizable by people 'at a glance'.  The issue I have with "The Islands", besides being horribly vague, is that you need to take a ferry that requires an advance reservation to use to get there.  To me, Woods Hole would be a better destination.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2022, 12:04:26 PM
I think this is the only time using states as control cities make sense. (https://goo.gl/maps/9BU1kWtNGNWM7zuD6)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on July 27, 2022, 04:57:34 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2022, 12:04:26 PM
I think this is the only time using states as control cities make sense. (https://goo.gl/maps/9BU1kWtNGNWM7zuD6)
Yeah that lone exit in Indiana you can't miss where you are going there but still if you went the Ohio way you'd end up in Kentucky at some point and if you went the Kentucky way you'd end up in Ohio at some point too.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on July 27, 2022, 09:50:07 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 27, 2022, 09:49:02 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 26, 2022, 06:24:57 PM
Quote from: dbz77 on July 26, 2022, 06:07:38 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 13, 2021, 03:59:11 PM
I'd nominate Nevada for one of the best. 

I-15: Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City
I-80: Sacramento, Reno, Elko, Salt Lake City

I-11 won't always be Boulder City but it makes sense for now since it doesn't cross the border.

Chris
The use of Los Angeles for I-15 southbound is left over from the Arrowhead Route, which passed through Las Vegas and terminated in Los Angeles.

(Cajon Pass is exactly 200 miles from Las Vegas, and the 15/215 junction is 215 miles, from where the 15 southbound finally departs from the Arrowhead Route for good.)

Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 21, 2022, 06:22:20 PMLet's start with I-40.  Going west from Flagstaff, the control city is Los Angeles but changes to Barstow once you're in California.
It does seem weird that Arizona uses Los Angeles as the control city for I-40 west, as I-40 does not even intersect with a highway that reaches Los Angeles.

If you're going to LA from Flagstaff, you would take I-40 west. It makes sense as a way to point you in the right direction. Los Angeles is also more meaningful to long distance travelers than Barstow might be.


Right. I don't think a highway needs to actually go to a city to be an effective control city. I actually don't mind states either. I think their purpose is to tell "directionally challenged" people which ramp to use.  So using "Los Angeles" or even "California" for I-40 westbound makes perfect sense to me.

"I actually don't mind states either"

Sometimes states can be useful control "cities" but more often than not, they're too vague and/or their use omits certain parts of the state.

For example, for much of the country, the route to different parts of New York State is different (e.g. if you're in Wytheville VA the route to NYC is different from the route to Buffalo), yet some people think "New York" meaning the state is an appropriate control city.

GDOT used to use "Florida" at the I-75/I-285 interchanges to mean that traffic going to peninsular Florida should use I-285 around Atlanta. They don't do that anymore, in part because the Florida panhandle is also part of Florida and is accessed by different routes.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Road Hog on July 27, 2022, 10:00:42 PM
Arkansas is hard to mess up. All inbound E-W interstates lead to Little Rock; outbound interstates sign the main cities at or close to the border (Texarkana, Memphis, Fort Smith). Only one I'm not sure about is I-49 North; Shreveport is the control city south of Texarkana.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SEWIGuy on July 28, 2022, 09:00:16 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on July 27, 2022, 09:50:07 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 27, 2022, 09:49:02 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on July 26, 2022, 06:24:57 PM
Quote from: dbz77 on July 26, 2022, 06:07:38 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 13, 2021, 03:59:11 PM
I'd nominate Nevada for one of the best. 

I-15: Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City
I-80: Sacramento, Reno, Elko, Salt Lake City

I-11 won't always be Boulder City but it makes sense for now since it doesn't cross the border.

Chris
The use of Los Angeles for I-15 southbound is left over from the Arrowhead Route, which passed through Las Vegas and terminated in Los Angeles.

(Cajon Pass is exactly 200 miles from Las Vegas, and the 15/215 junction is 215 miles, from where the 15 southbound finally departs from the Arrowhead Route for good.)

Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 21, 2022, 06:22:20 PMLet's start with I-40.  Going west from Flagstaff, the control city is Los Angeles but changes to Barstow once you're in California.
It does seem weird that Arizona uses Los Angeles as the control city for I-40 west, as I-40 does not even intersect with a highway that reaches Los Angeles.

If you're going to LA from Flagstaff, you would take I-40 west. It makes sense as a way to point you in the right direction. Los Angeles is also more meaningful to long distance travelers than Barstow might be.


Right. I don't think a highway needs to actually go to a city to be an effective control city. I actually don't mind states either. I think their purpose is to tell "directionally challenged" people which ramp to use.  So using "Los Angeles" or even "California" for I-40 westbound makes perfect sense to me.

"I actually don't mind states either"

Sometimes states can be useful control "cities" but more often than not, they're too vague and/or their use omits certain parts of the state.

For example, for much of the country, the route to different parts of New York State is different (e.g. if you're in Wytheville VA the route to NYC is different from the route to Buffalo), yet some people think "New York" meaning the state is an appropriate control city.

GDOT used to use "Florida" at the I-75/I-285 interchanges to mean that traffic going to peninsular Florida should use I-285 around Atlanta. They don't do that anymore, in part because the Florida panhandle is also part of Florida and is accessed by different routes.


Oh I agree. I am thinking of examples like I-294 around Chicago.  "Wisconsin" and "Indiana" make perfect sense to me.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on July 28, 2022, 01:22:57 PM
Quote from: roadman on July 27, 2022, 11:50:40 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on July 16, 2022, 05:12:55 PM
I'm not a fan of how MA uses states and geographical locations as control points; NH-Maine, Cape Cod, and the most egregious, The Islands.

NH-Maine no longer exists as a destination on signs in MA, it's been replaced with Portsmouth NH.  Cape Cod is a logical control destination, as it's immediately recognizable by people 'at a glance'.  The issue I have with "The Islands", besides being horribly vague, is that you need to take a ferry that requires an advance reservation to use to get there.  To me, Woods Hole would be a better destination.

I actually didn't mind the NH-ME and Cape Cod references, at least on some places. They were valuable to out-of-state drivers, especially since most were coming on the Mass. Pike. "˜The Islands"  are a bit vague, though.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on July 28, 2022, 01:44:24 PM
So basically, this thread can be summed up by 1) dislike of Arizona having Los Angeles as it's control city for two of it's interstates, then California breaking it into smaller cities, 2) a lot of eastern and midwestern states have too many control cities (breaking it down to smaller cities) and 3) hatred for control states.

I think control cities should be uniform as well, BUT, I think the points above work well for their specific situations.  Take the more populated northeast.  Using the smaller control cities works well since, for the most part, people don't dive 500 miles around there.  Giving them the large, but very unobtainable New York City on I-80 when you are not going to be driving that long, does give the driver a nice heading, but better information is given when Willamsport is mentioned before New York is. 

Chicagoland is a funny place, and lots of times control states are used.  Even though I am not a fan, I think this works well since most people when seeing a road sign in the Chicago area want to know two things:  how to get to and how to get away from Chicago.  They can do it given the city is located at the junction of three states. 

In the desert southwest, you dive a long, long way to get to... more nothing.  I think it is important out there to sign the far away destinations because A) its the only place of significance and B) It gives you a very good idea of scale.  "We left Phoenix; the next big city is Los Angeles."...but it's still 373 miles away!

I think the system needs a mandatory way to give this information and not just leave it up to the states, but I also think some of these nuances make sense if you put yourself in the location they are located. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 31, 2022, 11:33:06 AM
Quote from: dbz77 on July 26, 2022, 06:07:38 PM

If you're going to LA from Flagstaff, you would take I-40 west. It makes sense as a way to point you in the right direction. Los Angeles is also more meaningful to long distance travelers than Barstow might be.


Similarly, if you're going to El Paso from Albuquerque, you take I-25 south.  As the route points you in that direction, using El Paso as the southbound control city from Albuquerque indeed makes sense.  And I think El Paso is more meaningful than Las Cruces for long distance travelers.  I get that Las Cruces has an interstate junction; but El Paso is much bigger and is just a short distance from Las Cruces.

Also, if you don't want to use Los Angeles on I-40 west from Flagstaff, the most logical choice would be to sign Kingman because it's bigger than Barstow.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on July 31, 2022, 11:48:08 AM
That being said, I don't mind the use of in-state control cities on US highways.  Most of them aren't freeways to begin with; and they do go right through many of these small towns, serving as their main streets.  That's why before the interstates were completed, it would've made sense to use towns like Santa Rosa, Belen, Grants, Gallup, Las Vegas (NM), Raton.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on July 31, 2022, 01:15:27 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 31, 2022, 11:48:08 AM
That being said, I don't mind the use of in-state control cities on US highways.  Most of them aren't freeways to begin with; and they do go right through many of these small towns, serving as their main streets.  That's why before the interstates were completed, it would've made sense to use towns like Santa Rosa, Belen, Grants, Gallup, Las Vegas (NM), Raton.
I start to have issues with that when they are freeways or expressways. Ohio have a lot of US route freeways or expressways that could afford maybe not using every county seat it passes by, and something more for longer-distance travelers. Like US 35 is a commonly used route to get between the Midwest and Southeast, and could be better off only using only Dayton, Chillicothe and Charleston WV as controls.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kirbykart on July 31, 2022, 01:26:35 PM
Quote from: roadman on July 27, 2022, 11:50:40 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on July 16, 2022, 05:12:55 PM
I'm not a fan of how MA uses states and geographical locations as control points; NH-Maine, Cape Cod, and the most egregious, The Islands.

NH-Maine no longer exists as a destination on signs in MA, it's been replaced with Portsmouth NH.  Cape Cod is a logical control destination, as it's immediately recognizable by people 'at a glance'.  The issue I have with "The Islands", besides being horribly vague, is that you need to take a ferry that requires an advance reservation to use to get there.  To me, Woods Hole would be a better destination.
Massachusetts may not use NH-Maine anymore, but New Hampshire still uses "All Maine Points" and Maine still uses "Points South/N.H.-Mass."
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: US 89 on July 31, 2022, 05:20:13 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 31, 2022, 01:15:27 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 31, 2022, 11:48:08 AM
That being said, I don't mind the use of in-state control cities on US highways.  Most of them aren't freeways to begin with; and they do go right through many of these small towns, serving as their main streets.  That's why before the interstates were completed, it would've made sense to use towns like Santa Rosa, Belen, Grants, Gallup, Las Vegas (NM), Raton.
I start to have issues with that when they are freeways or expressways. Ohio have a lot of US route freeways or expressways that could afford maybe not using every county seat it passes by, and something more for longer-distance travelers. Like US 35 is a commonly used route to get between the Midwest and Southeast, and could be better off only using only Dayton, Chillicothe and Charleston WV as controls.

as a native westerner, I only know Dayton is someplace in Ohio and I have no idea where Chillicothe is, therefore they should absolutely never be used as control cities
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hbelkins on July 31, 2022, 05:26:57 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 31, 2022, 01:15:27 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 31, 2022, 11:48:08 AM
That being said, I don't mind the use of in-state control cities on US highways.  Most of them aren't freeways to begin with; and they do go right through many of these small towns, serving as their main streets.  That's why before the interstates were completed, it would've made sense to use towns like Santa Rosa, Belen, Grants, Gallup, Las Vegas (NM), Raton.
I start to have issues with that when they are freeways or expressways. Ohio have a lot of US route freeways or expressways that could afford maybe not using every county seat it passes by, and something more for longer-distance travelers. Like US 35 is a commonly used route to get between the Midwest and Southeast, and could be better off only using only Dayton, Chillicothe and Charleston WV as controls.

Jackson needs to be on that list. Major crossroads of US 35 and Corridor D (OH 32).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on August 01, 2022, 09:18:33 AM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 31, 2022, 11:48:08 AM
That being said, I don't mind the use of in-state control cities on US highways.  Most of them aren't freeways to begin with; and they do go right through many of these small towns, serving as their main streets.  That's why before the interstates were completed, it would've made sense to use towns like Santa Rosa, Belen, Grants, Gallup, Las Vegas (NM), Raton.

I always felt that was just the norm.  US highways are more of the local roads that also travel to the next town of consequence, so the next town of any consequence would be the next control city for it. Its kind of like the bus that makes every stop vs. the express bus.  They may travel to the same place eventually, but the bus that makes every stop calls the next stop despite it being only a block ahead.  The express bus calls the far away stop because the point of the express bus is it skips all the other stops to get to the next major stop quicker.  The US highway is the commuter bus and the Interstate is the express bus. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on August 01, 2022, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: US 89 on July 31, 2022, 05:20:13 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 31, 2022, 01:15:27 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 31, 2022, 11:48:08 AM
That being said, I don't mind the use of in-state control cities on US highways.  Most of them aren't freeways to begin with; and they do go right through many of these small towns, serving as their main streets.  That's why before the interstates were completed, it would've made sense to use towns like Santa Rosa, Belen, Grants, Gallup, Las Vegas (NM), Raton.
I start to have issues with that when they are freeways or expressways. Ohio have a lot of US route freeways or expressways that could afford maybe not using every county seat it passes by, and something more for longer-distance travelers. Like US 35 is a commonly used route to get between the Midwest and Southeast, and could be better off only using only Dayton, Chillicothe and Charleston WV as controls.

as a native westerner, I only know Dayton is someplace in Ohio and I have no idea where Chillicothe is, therefore they should absolutely never be used as control cities
Chillicothe is fine as a control city. First of all it was the first and third capital of Ohio, it's the junction of US-23, US-35 and US-50, it has a University and about 20,000 people. So just because you've never heard of Chillicothe it shouldn't be used as a control city? I'm pretty sure that a vast majority of Ohioans know where Chillicothe is so I'd have to say it's fine.

Chillicothe is bigger than Limon, CO and I know where Limon is.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: codyg1985 on August 01, 2022, 03:38:09 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on July 27, 2022, 10:00:42 PM
Arkansas is hard to mess up. All inbound E-W interstates lead to Little Rock; outbound interstates sign the main cities at or close to the border (Texarkana, Memphis, Fort Smith). Only one I'm not sure about is I-49 North; Shreveport is the control city south of Texarkana.

I think they use "Joplin MO" for I-49 North. I'd say that's fairly fitting.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 01, 2022, 03:40:07 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 01, 2022, 03:34:16 PM
Chillicothe is fine as a control city. First of all it was the first and third capital of Ohio

Not sure if we should be picking control cities based on history.

Should Kaskaskia, IL be a control city for I-55?
Windsor, VT for I-91?
Kingston, TN for I-40?
Guthrie, OK for I-35?
Corydon, IN for I-64?

I think not...  ;-)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 01, 2022, 03:41:49 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 01, 2022, 03:40:07 PM
Guthrie, OK for I-35?

I think I actually have seen at least one oddball sign out there that uses Guthrie as a control. Because ODOT.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: codyg1985 on August 01, 2022, 03:47:28 PM
For the most part, Alabama does an acceptable job at control cities.

I-10 Eastbound: Mobile then Pensacola. That's acceptable.
I-10 Westbound: Mobile then Pascagoula. Not a fan at all of Pascagoula. Should be Biloxi or Gulfport with New Orleans as a secondary control city.

I-20 Eastbound: Tuscaloosa, Birmingham, Atlanta. Nothing wrong with that.
I-20 Westbound: Birmingham, Tuscaloosa, Meridian.

I-22 Eastbound: Birmingham
I-22 Westbound: Jasper, Hamilton, Tupelo, or Memphis, depending on where you are. This should be Tupelo. Maybe Memphis as a secondary control city. No Jasper or Hamilton.

I-65 Northbound: Montgomery, Birmingham, Huntsville, Nashville. I have a minor quip with Huntsville since I-65 doesn't pass through the main part of Huntsville (even though I-65 passes through the city limits of Huntsville). Since there is I-565 that connects it with Huntsville, it makes it borderline acceptable.
I-65 Southbound: Huntsville, Birmingham, Montgomery, Mobile.

I-85 Northbound: Atlanta
I-85 Southbound: Montgomery
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on August 01, 2022, 04:13:08 PM
Quote from: codyg1985 on August 01, 2022, 03:47:28 PM
For the most part, Alabama does an acceptable job at control cities.

I-10 Eastbound: Mobile then Pensacola. That's acceptable.
I-10 Westbound: Mobile then Pascagoula. Not a fan at all of Pascagoula. Should be Biloxi or Gulfport with New Orleans as a secondary control city.

I-20 Eastbound: Tuscaloosa, Birmingham, Atlanta. Nothing wrong with that.
I-20 Westbound: Birmingham, Tuscaloosa, Meridian.

I-22 Eastbound: Birmingham
I-22 Westbound: Jasper, Hamilton, Tupelo, or Memphis, depending on where you are. This should be Tupelo. Maybe Memphis as a secondary control city. No Jasper or Hamilton.

I-65 Northbound: Montgomery, Birmingham, Huntsville, Nashville. I have a minor quip with Huntsville since I-65 doesn't pass through the main part of Huntsville (even though I-65 passes through the city limits of Huntsville). Since there is I-565 that connects it with Huntsville, it makes it borderline acceptable.
I-65 Southbound: Huntsville, Birmingham, Montgomery, Mobile.

I-85 Northbound: Atlanta
I-85 Southbound: Montgomery


You forgot I-59, which uses Birmingham, Gadsden, Chattanooga (Edit - This is just the section north of I-20, south of there it overlaps I-20 to the state line). In my opinion they should just skip Gadsden
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: codyg1985 on August 01, 2022, 04:22:14 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 01, 2022, 04:13:08 PM
Quote from: codyg1985 on August 01, 2022, 03:47:28 PM
For the most part, Alabama does an acceptable job at control cities.

I-10 Eastbound: Mobile then Pensacola. That's acceptable.
I-10 Westbound: Mobile then Pascagoula. Not a fan at all of Pascagoula. Should be Biloxi or Gulfport with New Orleans as a secondary control city.

I-20 Eastbound: Tuscaloosa, Birmingham, Atlanta. Nothing wrong with that.
I-20 Westbound: Birmingham, Tuscaloosa, Meridian.

I-22 Eastbound: Birmingham
I-22 Westbound: Jasper, Hamilton, Tupelo, or Memphis, depending on where you are. This should be Tupelo. Maybe Memphis as a secondary control city. No Jasper or Hamilton.

I-65 Northbound: Montgomery, Birmingham, Huntsville, Nashville. I have a minor quip with Huntsville since I-65 doesn't pass through the main part of Huntsville (even though I-65 passes through the city limits of Huntsville). Since there is I-565 that connects it with Huntsville, it makes it borderline acceptable.
I-65 Southbound: Huntsville, Birmingham, Montgomery, Mobile.

I-85 Northbound: Atlanta
I-85 Southbound: Montgomery


You forgot I-59, which uses Birmingham, Gadsden, Chattanooga. In my opinion they should just skip Gadsden

My bad, I did forget I-59. Gadsden is questionable. There is a I-759 spur for Gadsden, but it isn't that large of a city.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on August 01, 2022, 04:49:21 PM
Quote from: codyg1985 on August 01, 2022, 03:47:28 PM
For the most part, Alabama does an acceptable job at control cities.

I-10 Eastbound: Mobile then Pensacola. That's acceptable.
I-10 Westbound: Mobile then Pascagoula. Not a fan at all of Pascagoula. Should be Biloxi or Gulfport with New Orleans as a secondary control city.

I-20 Eastbound: Tuscaloosa, Birmingham, Atlanta. Nothing wrong with that.
I-20 Westbound: Birmingham, Tuscaloosa, Meridian.

I-22 Eastbound: Birmingham
I-22 Westbound: Jasper, Hamilton, Tupelo, or Memphis, depending on where you are. This should be Tupelo. Maybe Memphis as a secondary control city. No Jasper or Hamilton.

I-65 Northbound: Montgomery, Birmingham, Huntsville, Nashville. I have a minor quip with Huntsville since I-65 doesn't pass through the main part of Huntsville (even though I-65 passes through the city limits of Huntsville). Since there is I-565 that connects it with Huntsville, it makes it borderline acceptable.
I-65 Southbound: Huntsville, Birmingham, Montgomery, Mobile.

I-85 Northbound: Atlanta
I-85 Southbound: Montgomery

I like the control cities for I-459 skipping Birmingham and going to the next I-59,or I-20 control city.  This is how it should be done.  The Nashville area does this well too. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on August 01, 2022, 05:58:23 PM
Why would I-459 have a Birmingham control city anyway? Is something like that done in some other places?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 01, 2022, 06:05:19 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 01, 2022, 05:58:23 PM
Why would I-459 have a Birmingham control city anyway? Is something like that done in some other places?

Can't really think of one for a bypass.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on August 01, 2022, 06:21:18 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 01, 2022, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: US 89 on July 31, 2022, 05:20:13 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 31, 2022, 01:15:27 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on July 31, 2022, 11:48:08 AM
That being said, I don't mind the use of in-state control cities on US highways.  Most of them aren't freeways to begin with; and they do go right through many of these small towns, serving as their main streets.  That's why before the interstates were completed, it would've made sense to use towns like Santa Rosa, Belen, Grants, Gallup, Las Vegas (NM), Raton.
I start to have issues with that when they are freeways or expressways. Ohio have a lot of US route freeways or expressways that could afford maybe not using every county seat it passes by, and something more for longer-distance travelers. Like US 35 is a commonly used route to get between the Midwest and Southeast, and could be better off only using only Dayton, Chillicothe and Charleston WV as controls.

as a native westerner, I only know Dayton is someplace in Ohio and I have no idea where Chillicothe is, therefore they should absolutely never be used as control cities
Chillicothe is fine as a control city. First of all it was the first and third capital of Ohio, it's the junction of US-23, US-35 and US-50, it has a University and about 20,000 people. So just because you've never heard of Chillicothe it shouldn't be used as a control city? I'm pretty sure that a vast majority of Ohioans know where Chillicothe is so I'd have to say it's fine.

Chillicothe is bigger than Limon, CO and I know where Limon is.
The junction between US 35 and US 23 is more of a reason to post Chillicothe than it being a former state capital. US 35 traffic to/from Columbus and points north like Toledo and Detroit use US 23 north of there as a veer-off.

Quote from: hbelkins on July 31, 2022, 05:26:57 PM
Jackson needs to be on that list. Major crossroads of US 35 and Corridor D (OH 32).
I preferably wouldn't add Jackson due to its small size and proximity to Chillicothe, but I'm fine with it as a control than Xenia, Washington CH and Gallipolis at least. Also, US 50/OH 32 WB skips Jackson in favor of using Cincinnati in Athens, another reason why I thought it was skippable.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: bassoon1986 on August 01, 2022, 09:41:02 PM
My home state Louisiana is a mixed bag. Most of the control cities are ones you would expect. Granted south Louisiana has much larger cities and nearly all of them on the I-10 and I-12 corridors are above 100k. Here are the ones I think should be skipped or changed.

It isn't shared by many on this forum, but I think Opelousas on I-49 can be skipped. It's not as large as other cities and is in such close proximity to Lafayette. Going southbound it is the cut off to hop onto US 190 to go to Baton Rouge, but BR is listed on the 190 exit. People know to exit there. Opelousas is not that important. I think it's mostly a leftover control city from when I-49 was first constructed and only stretched from I-10 to that point.

I-12- Hammond and Slidell. They're both junctions with other interstates but they're only moderately important. Although I like the idea of just the endpoints for 12 (Baton Rouge and Slidell) I think more long range cities are better here. Baton Rouge and Gulfport

I-10- has to get rid of the old Bay St Louis designation EB into MS. Gulfport.

Future I-49 south- right now south of Lafayette, US 90 uses Morgan City then New Orleans. I'm not really sure why I don't like Morgan City. New Iberia is very close to Lafayette but larger. For some reason I like Houma better but the city proper is further off of US 90.

Other than Bay St Louis, the other out of state control cities make sense to me: Texarkana, Dallas, Vicksburg, Beaumont, Hattiesburg, and Jackson (although it turns to McComb inside of Mississippi)


iPhone
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on August 02, 2022, 09:43:58 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 01, 2022, 05:58:23 PM
Why would I-459 have a Birmingham control city anyway? Is something like that done in some other places?

As opposed to some 3 digit interstates having no control city.  Or in the case of I-610 in Houston having Bellaire as a control city because it actually does go through Bellaire, but it's still the Houston area. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 10:48:57 AM
Quote from: US 89 on July 21, 2022, 02:53:21 PM
I want to know why Nevada gets a free pass on using Elko but even the suggestion that Utah sign Provo or St George instead of Las Vegas seems to be so unpopular.
Absolutely agree. I was in Reno this last week. If you are on 580 at 80, the controls are Reno/Sacramento for WB and Sparks/Elko for EB. That should be Salt Lake City.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 02, 2022, 10:55:01 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 10:48:57 AM
Quote from: US 89 on July 21, 2022, 02:53:21 PM
I want to know why Nevada gets a free pass on using Elko but even the suggestion that Utah sign Provo or St George instead of Las Vegas seems to be so unpopular.
Absolutely agree. I was in Reno this last week. If you are on 580 at 80, the controls are Reno/Sacramento for WB and Sparks/Elko for EB. That should be Salt Lake City.

I have no problem with Elko. Easily the largest city for a long ways.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 11:03:51 AM
Quote from: 1 on July 22, 2022, 09:36:17 AM
You said a minimum of 100,000 people, and if it's greater than 400 miles, go the longer distance rather than going with a smaller city. Charleston WV is slightly under 50,000. Would you make an exception for Charleston?
There should always be exceptions to the rule. I think 400 miles is a bit much especially with places out east. And for places out west, 100k can be difficult. If we went by these rules, I-80 would go with Sacramento, Reno, Salt Lake City, Lincoln, Omaha, and Des Moines between I-5 and I-35.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on August 02, 2022, 11:05:56 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 11:03:51 AM
Quote from: 1 on July 22, 2022, 09:36:17 AM
You said a minimum of 100,000 people, and if it's greater than 400 miles, go the longer distance rather than going with a smaller city. Charleston WV is slightly under 50,000. Would you make an exception for Charleston?
There should always be exceptions to the rule. I think 400 miles is a bit much especially with places out east. And for places out west, 100k can be difficult. If we went by these rules, I-80 would go with Sacramento, Reno, Salt Lake City, Lincoln, Omaha, and Des Moines between I-5 and I-35.

Do what Texas does in SA, just sign a city well over 500 mikes away on I-10 and avoid the smaller ones in between.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 11:09:26 AM
Quote from: jaehak on July 22, 2022, 11:20:03 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2022, 07:16:41 PM
Quote from: invincor on July 22, 2022, 02:37:29 PM
Is everyone here aware that there is a YouTube channel specifically dedicated to the topic of this thread?  It's by a man named Todd and the channel is called "Control City Freak" and he posts a new video every week.  He's going through all the Interstate highways, in numerical order, one-by-one, and this week's new video was about the eastern I-76.
They're a member of this forum.

Thread for the channel: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30194.0

Yep, that's me!
All this time I did not know that this was you Todd. You probably don't realize who I am either but I do comment on your videos a lot. You would know me by Dan Hobson.  And yes I am still working on that listing I made mention of a few weeks ago. But when it is done, I will direct message you here with it.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hbelkins on August 02, 2022, 11:12:05 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 01, 2022, 06:21:18 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 31, 2022, 05:26:57 PM
Jackson needs to be on that list. Major crossroads of US 35 and Corridor D (OH 32).
I preferably wouldn't add Jackson due to its small size and proximity to Chillicothe, but I'm fine with it as a control than Xenia, Washington CH and Gallipolis at least. Also, US 50/OH 32 WB skips Jackson in favor of using Cincinnati in Athens, another reason why I thought it was skippable.

If I'm not mistaken, Jackson and Cincinnati are posted on US 23 at the OH 32 interchange.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on August 02, 2022, 11:33:25 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 11:03:51 AM
There should always be exceptions to the rule. I think 400 miles is a bit much especially with places out east.
An exception to that is OhioDOT signing NYC on I-80 EB in Youngstown. I think that's a perfect control city at that point.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 11:59:05 AM
I still believe that their should be a hierarchy for control cities. This would be my criteria for primary control cities eligibility. There would be exceptions to the rules:

1. Largest City or Metro Area in the state.
2. Capital City
3. City over 100k that is more than 50 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 50k that has a Division 1 Football University or College AND is more than 50 miles from the previous rules.
5. Tourist destinations that get over 500k visitors a year. that are 25 miles from a previous rule. So this would be places like Wisconsin Dells and Pigeon Forge.
6. City over 20k that is more than 150 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
7. City over 10k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

Secondary Control Cities:
1. City over 50k
2. Suburban satellite cities that are 25 miles or more from the Downtown of a metro area. This would include places like Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora and Joliet for Chicago.
3. City over 25k that is more than 50 miles from previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 10k that is more than 100 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
5. City over 5k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SEWIGuy on August 02, 2022, 12:01:44 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 11:59:05 AM
I still believe that their should be a hierarchy for control cities. This would be my criteria for primary control cities eligibility. There would be exceptions to the rules:

1. Largest City or Metro Area in the state.
2. Capital City
3. City over 100k that is more than 50 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 50k that has a Division 1 Football University or College AND is more than 50 miles from the previous rules.
5. Tourist destinations that get over 500k visitors a year. that are 25 miles from a previous rule. So this would be places like Wisconsin Dells and Pigeon Forge.
6. City over 20k that is more than 150 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
7. City over 10k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

Secondary Control Cities:
1. City over 50k
2. Suburban satellite cities that are 25 miles or more from the Downtown of a metro area. This would include places like Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora and Joliet for Chicago.
3. City over 25k that is more than 50 miles from previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 10k that is more than 100 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
5. City over 5k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.


This seems like a lot of work instead of just leaving it up to DOT discretion instead.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 12:04:38 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on August 02, 2022, 12:01:44 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 11:59:05 AM
I still believe that their should be a hierarchy for control cities. This would be my criteria for primary control cities eligibility. There would be exceptions to the rules:

1. Largest City or Metro Area in the state.
2. Capital City
3. City over 100k that is more than 50 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 50k that has a Division 1 Football University or College AND is more than 50 miles from the previous rules.
5. Tourist destinations that get over 500k visitors a year. that are 25 miles from a previous rule. So this would be places like Wisconsin Dells and Pigeon Forge.
6. City over 20k that is more than 150 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
7. City over 10k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

Secondary Control Cities:
1. City over 50k
2. Suburban satellite cities that are 25 miles or more from the Downtown of a metro area. This would include places like Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora and Joliet for Chicago.
3. City over 25k that is more than 50 miles from previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 10k that is more than 100 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
5. City over 5k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.


This seems like a lot of work instead of just leaving it up to DOT discretion instead.

It really isn't when you take the 1 and 2 as automatics.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 02, 2022, 01:03:03 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 11:59:05 AM
I still believe that their should be a hierarchy for control cities. This would be my criteria for primary control cities eligibility. There would be exceptions to the rules:

1. Largest City or Metro Area in the state.
2. Capital City
3. City over 100k that is more than 50 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 50k that has a Division 1 Football University or College AND is more than 50 miles from the previous rules.
5. Tourist destinations that get over 500k visitors a year. that are 25 miles from a previous rule. So this would be places like Wisconsin Dells and Pigeon Forge.
6. City over 20k that is more than 150 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
7. City over 10k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

Secondary Control Cities:
1. City over 50k
2. Suburban satellite cities that are 25 miles or more from the Downtown of a metro area. This would include places like Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora and Joliet for Chicago.
3. City over 25k that is more than 50 miles from previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 10k that is more than 100 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
5. City over 5k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

So, just curious, are you signing:
Zion National Park west of Grand Junction?
Theodore Roosevelt National Park east of Billings?
Hays east out of Denver?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hotdogPi on August 02, 2022, 01:20:10 PM
Seriously, what does college football have to with control cities? What if there's a basketball school instead, or god forbid, a school that actually focuses on academics? Or a retirement community, which wouldn't have a university at all?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 02, 2022, 01:25:54 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 02, 2022, 01:20:10 PM
Seriously, what does college football have to with control cities? What if there's a basketball school instead, or god forbid, a school that actually focuses on academics? Or a retirement community, which wouldn't have a university at all?

Also, why not NASCAR? I know places like Talladega get huge crowds. Signing that on I-20?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 04:56:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 02, 2022, 01:20:10 PM
Seriously, what does college football have to with control cities? What if there's a basketball school instead, or god forbid, a school that actually focuses on academics? Or a retirement community, which wouldn't have a university at all?

Actually, major universities with large student populations usually are Division 1 Football schools. Your not naming the school itself but the city it is in. How many cities can you come up with that has a major university but not much (under 10k) population for the city? The reason for this is now you get to add cities like Tuscaloosa and South Bend that normally may get passed up as control cities.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 02, 2022, 04:59:32 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 04:56:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 02, 2022, 01:20:10 PM
Seriously, what does college football have to with control cities? What if there's a basketball school instead, or god forbid, a school that actually focuses on academics? Or a retirement community, which wouldn't have a university at all?

Actually, major universities with large student populations usually are Division 1 Football schools. Your not naming the school itself but the city it is in. How many cities can you come up with that has a major university but not much (under 10k) population for the city? The reason for this is now you get to add cities like Tuscaloosa and South Bend that normally may get passed up as control cities.

I mean, by definition if you have a major university (say, over 10K students), the city's population is going to be over 10K people.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 04:59:48 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 02, 2022, 01:25:54 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 02, 2022, 01:20:10 PM
Seriously, what does college football have to with control cities? What if there's a basketball school instead, or god forbid, a school that actually focuses on academics? Or a retirement community, which wouldn't have a university at all?

Also, why not NASCAR? I know places like Talladega get huge crowds. Signing that on I-20?
As for NASCAR, those venues, while big, are not used year round. A university is used year round.  If you want Talladega on 20 as a secondary, no problem.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 05:01:14 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 02, 2022, 04:59:32 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 04:56:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 02, 2022, 01:20:10 PM
Seriously, what does college football have to with control cities? What if there's a basketball school instead, or god forbid, a school that actually focuses on academics? Or a retirement community, which wouldn't have a university at all?

Actually, major universities with large student populations usually are Division 1 Football schools. Your not naming the school itself but the city it is in. How many cities can you come up with that has a major university but not much (under 10k) population for the city? The reason for this is now you get to add cities like Tuscaloosa and South Bend that normally may get passed up as control cities.

I mean, by definition if you have a major university (say, over 10K students), the city's population is going to be over 10K people.
Census data for populations as far as I recall do not account for student population in the city population. I could be wrong.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 02, 2022, 05:03:13 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 05:01:14 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 02, 2022, 04:59:32 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 04:56:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 02, 2022, 01:20:10 PM
Seriously, what does college football have to with control cities? What if there's a basketball school instead, or god forbid, a school that actually focuses on academics? Or a retirement community, which wouldn't have a university at all?

Actually, major universities with large student populations usually are Division 1 Football schools. Your not naming the school itself but the city it is in. How many cities can you come up with that has a major university but not much (under 10k) population for the city? The reason for this is now you get to add cities like Tuscaloosa and South Bend that normally may get passed up as control cities.

I mean, by definition if you have a major university (say, over 10K students), the city's population is going to be over 10K people.
Census data for populations as far as I recall do not account for student population in the city population. I could be wrong.

Otherwise, you're looking at:
Vermillion, SD (University of South Dakota) - 13,921
Pullman, WA (Washington State) - 46,808
Oxford, MS (Ole Miss) - 52,921
Athens, OH (Ohio University) - 64,702
Starkville, MS (Mississippi State) - 49,403
Ames, IA (Iowa State) - 94,035

These are about it for FBS/FCS level schools in metro/micro areas less than 100,000 people, with Ames being the only one on an interstate. (Vermillion isn't too far away from I-29, but not on it.)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 05:08:13 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 02, 2022, 01:03:03 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 11:59:05 AM
I still believe that their should be a hierarchy for control cities. This would be my criteria for primary control cities eligibility. There would be exceptions to the rules:

1. Largest City or Metro Area in the state.
2. Capital City
3. City over 100k that is more than 50 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 50k that has a Division 1 Football University or College AND is more than 50 miles from the previous rules.
5. Tourist destinations that get over 500k visitors a year. that are 25 miles from a previous rule. So this would be places like Wisconsin Dells and Pigeon Forge.
6. City over 20k that is more than 150 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
7. City over 10k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

Secondary Control Cities:
1. City over 50k
2. Suburban satellite cities that are 25 miles or more from the Downtown of a metro area. This would include places like Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora and Joliet for Chicago.
3. City over 25k that is more than 50 miles from previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 10k that is more than 100 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
5. City over 5k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

So, just curious, are you signing:
Zion National Park west of Grand Junction?
Theodore Roosevelt National Park east of Billings?
Hays east out of Denver?

Like I said, there are exceptions to the rule. This was a starting point for the validity of a control city. Hays would be better than Limon. Personally I would use Salina over Hays. As for the National Parks, those are a tough call. Certainly Zion over using Green River, Richfield or Cove Fort. But then again, Zion is near St George and not that far from Las Vegas. Maybe I should slot "Tourist destination" down one.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on August 02, 2022, 05:11:50 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 05:01:14 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 02, 2022, 04:59:32 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 04:56:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 02, 2022, 01:20:10 PM
Seriously, what does college football have to with control cities? What if there's a basketball school instead, or god forbid, a school that actually focuses on academics? Or a retirement community, which wouldn't have a university at all?

Actually, major universities with large student populations usually are Division 1 Football schools. Your not naming the school itself but the city it is in. How many cities can you come up with that has a major university but not much (under 10k) population for the city? The reason for this is now you get to add cities like Tuscaloosa and South Bend that normally may get passed up as control cities.

I mean, by definition if you have a major university (say, over 10K students), the city's population is going to be over 10K people.
Census data for populations as far as I recall do not account for student population in the city population. I could be wrong.

The census counts people where they "live and sleep most of the time" as of April 1 of the census year. Since April 1 is right in the middle of the school year, college students would be counted in their on-campus dorm or off-campus apartment.

Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 02, 2022, 05:16:41 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 05:08:13 PM
Like I said, there are exceptions to the rule. This was a starting point for the validity of a control city. Hays would be better than Limon. Personally I would use Salina over Hays. As for the National Parks, those are a tough call. Certainly Zion over using Green River, Richfield or Cove Fort. But then again, Zion is near St George and not that far from Las Vegas. Maybe I should slot "Tourist destination" down one.

I think Hays is better than Salina for the Limon-haters.
For the Utah example, I think Zion doesn't work as well as St. George.
For the Montana/North Dakota example, I think Miles City still works fine and then Dickinson myself.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 05:17:44 PM
So let's say we take Alabama as a state to use for example.

Montgomery is automatic. Huntsville is automatic. Birmingham is automatic. Mobile is automatic. Put a 50 mile radius around those cities.
Tuscaloosa and Auburn would be the next tier of cities.
Gadsden and Decatur, while important to the state, would be relegated as secondary control cities.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 05:19:15 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 02, 2022, 05:16:41 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 05:08:13 PM
Like I said, there are exceptions to the rule. This was a starting point for the validity of a control city. Hays would be better than Limon. Personally I would use Salina over Hays. As for the National Parks, those are a tough call. Certainly Zion over using Green River, Richfield or Cove Fort. But then again, Zion is near St George and not that far from Las Vegas. Maybe I should slot "Tourist destination" down one.

I think Hays is better than Salina for the Limon-haters.
For the Utah example, I think Zion doesn't work as well as St. George.
For the Montana/North Dakota example, I think Miles City still works fine and then Dickinson myself.
Why Hays over Salina? Salina is bigger and has an important junction.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 02, 2022, 05:21:28 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 05:19:15 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 02, 2022, 05:16:41 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 05:08:13 PM
Like I said, there are exceptions to the rule. This was a starting point for the validity of a control city. Hays would be better than Limon. Personally I would use Salina over Hays. As for the National Parks, those are a tough call. Certainly Zion over using Green River, Richfield or Cove Fort. But then again, Zion is near St George and not that far from Las Vegas. Maybe I should slot "Tourist destination" down one.

I think Hays is better than Salina for the Limon-haters.
For the Utah example, I think Zion doesn't work as well as St. George.
For the Montana/North Dakota example, I think Miles City still works fine and then Dickinson myself.
Why Hays over Salina? Salina is bigger and has an important junction.

Hays is the largest city for a very, very large distance heading east from Denver (340 miles), and in return, the last place for a semblance of civilization heading west from Salina too.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 05:29:58 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 02, 2022, 05:21:28 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 05:19:15 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 02, 2022, 05:16:41 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 05:08:13 PM
Like I said, there are exceptions to the rule. This was a starting point for the validity of a control city. Hays would be better than Limon. Personally I would use Salina over Hays. As for the National Parks, those are a tough call. Certainly Zion over using Green River, Richfield or Cove Fort. But then again, Zion is near St George and not that far from Las Vegas. Maybe I should slot "Tourist destination" down one.

I think Hays is better than Salina for the Limon-haters.
For the Utah example, I think Zion doesn't work as well as St. George.
For the Montana/North Dakota example, I think Miles City still works fine and then Dickinson myself.
Why Hays over Salina? Salina is bigger and has an important junction.

Hays is the largest city for a very, very large distance heading east from Denver (340 miles), and in return, the last place for a semblance of civilization heading west from Salina too.
Fair enough.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 02, 2022, 06:00:25 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 04:56:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 02, 2022, 01:20:10 PM
Seriously, what does college football have to with control cities? What if there's a basketball school instead, or god forbid, a school that actually focuses on academics? Or a retirement community, which wouldn't have a university at all?

Actually, major universities with large student populations usually are Division 1 Football schools. Your not naming the school itself but the city it is in. How many cities can you come up with that has a major university but not much (under 10k) population for the city? The reason for this is now you get to add cities like Tuscaloosa and South Bend that normally may get passed up as control cities.

Absolutely not. You now have an external organization with no engineering background whatsoever influencing control city choice. And the NCAA and the football conferences are not a neutral body–they have financial interests guiding what constitutes "Division 1". Wrapping that up in control city selection is a recipe to get control cities that would make PennDOT blush.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 06:13:01 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 02, 2022, 06:00:25 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 04:56:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 02, 2022, 01:20:10 PM
Seriously, what does college football have to with control cities? What if there's a basketball school instead, or god forbid, a school that actually focuses on academics? Or a retirement community, which wouldn't have a university at all?

Actually, major universities with large student populations usually are Division 1 Football schools. Your not naming the school itself but the city it is in. How many cities can you come up with that has a major university but not much (under 10k) population for the city? The reason for this is now you get to add cities like Tuscaloosa and South Bend that normally may get passed up as control cities.

Absolutely not. You now have an external organization with no engineering background whatsoever influencing control city choice. And the NCAA and the football conferences are not a neutral body–they have financial interests guiding what constitutes "Division 1". Wrapping that up in control city selection is a recipe to get control cities that would make PennDOT blush.
Scott, so cities like Lafayette IN, Tuscaloosa, Gainesville, Waco and South Bend, all on interstates but are not considered major cities, should not be recognized as a major destination because of NCAA status? Those are big universities in cities of good size. THAT was the criteria I was trying to define. It's easier to define them as Division I football universities in small cities. My intention was not to have anything to do with the NCAA body itself. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 02, 2022, 07:45:08 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 06:13:01 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 02, 2022, 06:00:25 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 04:56:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 02, 2022, 01:20:10 PM
Seriously, what does college football have to with control cities? What if there's a basketball school instead, or god forbid, a school that actually focuses on academics? Or a retirement community, which wouldn't have a university at all?

Actually, major universities with large student populations usually are Division 1 Football schools. Your not naming the school itself but the city it is in. How many cities can you come up with that has a major university but not much (under 10k) population for the city? The reason for this is now you get to add cities like Tuscaloosa and South Bend that normally may get passed up as control cities.

Absolutely not. You now have an external organization with no engineering background whatsoever influencing control city choice. And the NCAA and the football conferences are not a neutral body–they have financial interests guiding what constitutes "Division 1". Wrapping that up in control city selection is a recipe to get control cities that would make PennDOT blush.
Scott, so cities like Lafayette IN, Tuscaloosa, Gainesville, Waco and South Bend, all on interstates but are not considered major cities, should not be recognized as a major destination because of NCAA status? Those are big universities in cities of good size. THAT was the criteria I was trying to define. It's easier to define them as Division I football universities in small cities. My intention was not to have anything to do with the NCAA body itself. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

No. None of those should be control cities. I'm not a football fan, so my association with them is, in order,

1) Where?
2) I have heard of this place but have no idea where in Alabama it is
3) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Oklahoma City
4) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Austin
5) Isn't that where the Secretary of Transportation is from?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hotdogPi on August 02, 2022, 07:47:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 02, 2022, 07:45:08 PM
3) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Oklahoma City

This isn't the state hobsini2 intended, which means it's even less important. (It's a legitimate control city for I-985, but that's not the state hobsini2 was referring to, either.)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 02, 2022, 07:49:04 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 02, 2022, 07:47:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 02, 2022, 07:45:08 PM
3) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Oklahoma City

This isn't the state hobsini2 intended, which means it's even less important.

If the first thing that springs to mind when you say the name of a city is another city of that name in a completely different state, it shouldn't be a control city.

(Yes, I am also calling out Las Vegas, New Mexico here.)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on August 02, 2022, 07:57:41 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 02, 2022, 07:49:04 PM
If the first thing that springs to mind when you say the name of a city is another city of that name in a completely different state, it shouldn't be a control city.
*looks at all the Springfields out there...*
And this is one reason why I'm in favor of I-44 WB in St Louis using Tulsa as a control city.

Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 02, 2022, 08:29:09 PM
At least there are enough prominent Springfields that it's generally well-known that it's a city name that exists in several states (to the extent that a popular television show makes a running gag out of it). Same goes with Portland OR/ME.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 03, 2022, 11:02:47 AM
Quote from: 1 on August 02, 2022, 07:47:35 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 02, 2022, 07:45:08 PM
3) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Oklahoma City

This isn't the state hobsini2 intended, which means it's even less important. (It's a legitimate control city for I-985, but that's not the state hobsini2 was referring to, either.)

I was talking about Gainesville FL not TX. Gainesville FL IS an important city in Florida.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 03, 2022, 11:09:11 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 02, 2022, 07:45:08 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 06:13:01 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 02, 2022, 06:00:25 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 04:56:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 02, 2022, 01:20:10 PM
Seriously, what does college football have to with control cities? What if there's a basketball school instead, or god forbid, a school that actually focuses on academics? Or a retirement community, which wouldn't have a university at all?

Actually, major universities with large student populations usually are Division 1 Football schools. Your not naming the school itself but the city it is in. How many cities can you come up with that has a major university but not much (under 10k) population for the city? The reason for this is now you get to add cities like Tuscaloosa and South Bend that normally may get passed up as control cities.

Absolutely not. You now have an external organization with no engineering background whatsoever influencing control city choice. And the NCAA and the football conferences are not a neutral body–they have financial interests guiding what constitutes "Division 1". Wrapping that up in control city selection is a recipe to get control cities that would make PennDOT blush.
Scott, so cities like Lafayette IN, Tuscaloosa, Gainesville, Waco and South Bend, all on interstates but are not considered major cities, should not be recognized as a major destination because of NCAA status? Those are big universities in cities of good size. THAT was the criteria I was trying to define. It's easier to define them as Division I football universities in small cities. My intention was not to have anything to do with the NCAA body itself. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

No. None of those should be control cities. I'm not a football fan, so my association with them is, in order,

1) Where?
2) I have heard of this place but have no idea where in Alabama it is
3) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Oklahoma City
4) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Austin
5) Isn't that where the Secretary of Transportation is from?


Lafayette IN - Purdue Univ, about halfway between Indianapolis and Gary on I-65
Tuscaloosa AL - U of Alabama, halfway between Birmingham and Meridian on I-20/59
Gainesville FL - U of Florida, 2 hours north of Tampa on I-75
Waco TX - Baylor Univ, halfway between Dallas and Austin on I-35
South Bend IN - U of Notre Dame, 80 miles east of Chicago on I-80/90

Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on August 03, 2022, 11:57:44 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 31, 2022, 01:15:27 PM

I start to have issues with that when they are freeways or expressways. Ohio have a lot of US route freeways or expressways that could afford maybe not using every county seat it passes by, and something more for longer-distance travelers. Like US 35 is a commonly used route to get between the Midwest and Southeast, and could be better off only using only Dayton, Chillicothe and Charleston WV as controls.

That would also depend on certain situations.   If a certain US route is a freeway-expressway for much of its length and does not downgrade to a surface street in any small town it passes through (or in the case it's a rural expressway, upgrades to a freeway in important towns — even bypassing them like interstates usually do), then yeah I would go ahead and sign the next big city.  US 101 in California is mostly a freeway and an expressway between Los Angeles and San Francisco.  Ventura is the first northbound control on US 101, and then changes to San Francisco.  But I would make the argument that San Jose should be signed because it's now bigger than San Francisco. 

But if a US route a limited-access highway for only 30 miles after leaving city/town A and upgrading from surface street to freeway/expressway and then downgrades to a surface street in city/town B, then in this case I'd use in-state control cities.  Upon splitting from I-25, US 84/285 in New Mexico heads north through Santa Fe as a surface street (St. Francis Drive), and then upgrades to a freeway for 13 miles as you leave the city limits.  It then downgrades to an expressway in Pojoaque (where there's a pretty important junction with NM 502 going west out of it to Los Alamos) and remains that way for about 9 miles until you reach Española where it downgrades to a surface street.  Going north from Santa Fe, Española is the control city on US 84/285. 

Similarly, US 70 is a freeway for 13 miles going east from Las Cruces before downgrading to a divided highway in the really small town of Organ on the rest of its way to Alamogordo, which is the eastbound control city on that stretch of US 70.  In Alamogordo, US 70 intersects US 54, and both run concurrently until Tularosa (the control city from Alamogordo) where the two roads split — 70 going east to Ruidoso and Roswell and 54 continuing north to Carrizozo (where it intersects US 380).  US 82 begins in Alamogordo at 54/70 and goes through Cloudcroft and through the mountains before reaching Artesia. 

I'm going to argue that Artesia should be the control city on US 82 because it's much bigger than Cloudcroft, and there's a junction with US 285 (north to go to Roswell and south to Carlsbad).  Carrizozo is fine on 54; but after the junction with 380, Santa Rosa should be the control city since Vaughn is almost a ghost town despite there being three US junctions.  And Santa Rosa is also where 54 intersects I-40.  285 from Clines Corners signs Santa Fe going north, but the southbound control should be Roswell since it's one of New Mexico's largest cities.  Conversely, Santa Fe should also be signed going north from Roswell, skipping over Vaughn.  70 east from Roswell could dual sign Portales and Clovis, and going west should be dual signed for Alamogordo and Las Cruces.

Another example worth mentioning is US 60 in Arizona.  Even though it's a freeway when it splits from I-10 in Tempe, the control cities are Mesa and Globe going east.  Upon leaving the Phoenix metro, 60 downgrades from freeway to divided highway and then intersects US 70 in Globe.  After Globe, Show Low becomes the eastbound control on 60. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on August 03, 2022, 12:03:30 PM
I would like to add that one qualifier that should not be taken into consideration when choosing control cities is whether or not I (or the average knucklehead) has heard of the city.  What I don't know could fill a warehouse. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on August 03, 2022, 12:17:51 PM
The other reason US highways tend to heavily use in-state control cities is because many (if not most) long-distance travelers use the interstates more often. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hbelkins on August 03, 2022, 12:59:06 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 02, 2022, 07:57:41 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 02, 2022, 07:49:04 PM
If the first thing that springs to mind when you say the name of a city is another city of that name in a completely different state, it shouldn't be a control city.
*looks at all the Springfields out there...*
And this is one reason why I'm in favor of I-44 WB in St Louis using Tulsa as a control city.

Or you could do what some states do, and use a state abbreviation to dispel any confusion.

West Virginia tends to use state abbreviations on all of its out-of-state controls (no state on "Cumberland" on I-68 at Morgantown is a huge exception) so you have "Washington, Pa." to distinguish it from "Washington, DC" which would be logical to use for I-68.

Tennessee uses "Jackson, Miss" in Memphis on I-55 to distinguish it from Jackson, Tenn., the largest town between Nashville and Memphis on I-40.

So "Springfield, Mo." would work for I-44, although Springfield, Ill., is skipped on I-55 in favor of Chicago.

It's a bit shocking to see Tulsa listed on I-64 at I-255 east of St. Louis.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on August 03, 2022, 02:33:16 PM
^ Except "Springfield, MO"  is 15 characters long including the comma and space. "Tulsa"  is 5 characters long. Obvious choice here on which to use when one of them is the name of 2 cities in different states nearby.
But then again, I would like more consistency for control cities from MoDOT first. You only see Tulsa in the St Louis area before it switches to Rolla. Tulsa doesn't show up again until west of Joplin.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on August 03, 2022, 02:35:44 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on August 03, 2022, 12:17:51 PM
The other reason US highways tend to heavily use in-state control cities is because many (if not most) long-distance travelers use the interstates more often.
Only if your state is like NC and goes slap happy with interstate shields that all the major US route freeways are future interstates. Otherwise, there's lots of examples of US or state route expressways/freeways used as part of long distance trips, like US 35 east of Dayton I mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 03, 2022, 03:28:24 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 03, 2022, 02:35:44 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on August 03, 2022, 12:17:51 PM
The other reason US highways tend to heavily use in-state control cities is because many (if not most) long-distance travelers use the interstates more often.
Only if your state is like NC and goes slap happy with interstate shields that all the major US route freeways are future interstates. Otherwise, there's lots of examples of US or state route expressways/freeways used as part of long distance trips, like US 35 east of Dayton I mentioned earlier.
US 218 in Iowa south of I-80 comes to mind.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: US 89 on August 03, 2022, 03:52:03 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 03, 2022, 02:35:44 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on August 03, 2022, 12:17:51 PM
The other reason US highways tend to heavily use in-state control cities is because many (if not most) long-distance travelers use the interstates more often.
Only if your state is like NC and goes slap happy with interstate shields that all the major US route freeways are future interstates. Otherwise, there's lots of examples of US or state route expressways/freeways used as part of long distance trips, like US 35 east of Dayton I mentioned earlier.

I mean, we don't really have US route freeways out west outside of cities
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 03, 2022, 04:17:32 PM
Quote from: US 89 on August 03, 2022, 03:52:03 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 03, 2022, 02:35:44 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on August 03, 2022, 12:17:51 PM
The other reason US highways tend to heavily use in-state control cities is because many (if not most) long-distance travelers use the interstates more often.
Only if your state is like NC and goes slap happy with interstate shields that all the major US route freeways are future interstates. Otherwise, there's lots of examples of US or state route expressways/freeways used as part of long distance trips, like US 35 east of Dayton I mentioned earlier.

I mean, we don't really have US route freeways out west outside of cities

Pretty much US101 in California and US395 in Washington, yeah?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on August 03, 2022, 04:30:06 PM
Quote from: US 89 on August 03, 2022, 03:52:03 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 03, 2022, 02:35:44 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on August 03, 2022, 12:17:51 PM
The other reason US highways tend to heavily use in-state control cities is because many (if not most) long-distance travelers use the interstates more often.
Only if your state is like NC and goes slap happy with interstate shields that all the major US route freeways are future interstates. Otherwise, there’s lots of examples of US or state route expressways/freeways used as part of long distance trips, like US 35 east of Dayton I mentioned earlier.

I mean, we don’t really have US route freeways out west outside of cities

We have some in Texas, but they are either A) not long enough to make them apart of long range travel or B) annoying freeways downgraded to expressways.

The other thing about Texas is it causes you to redefine a road trip.  It hard for me to call intra-Texas travel as a long road trip, but it is for a lot of people.  I can drive to El Paso from here and it be about 600 miles.  All that to say we have many trips in state that cannot be reached with interstates so, like it or not, you are going to have to use US or state highways in all their divided expressway, 4-lane undivided and 2 laned glory!  This might be where small control cities start to annoy.  You are driving from Austin to Lubbock, say, and instead of just one or two headings, you get a million.  You just have to know where you are going out here because there are so many highways cris-crossing making so many options. 

It also takes a long time to drive in state... And people wonder why Texas wants so many interstates....

This subject takes me back to I-69.  It is currently signed as a US Highway with and Interstate shield slapped on it, instead of the way interstates are normally signed.  Most of this has to do with most of the I-69 (E, W, C, 369) signed sections are in urban areas that get different treatment when signing even on normal interstates.  Where I am going with that is how long, and of course this is contingent on how long it takes to finish I-69 in Texas, will it take for Cleveland to be replaced with Shreveport for I-69 north of downtown Houston and Victoria to be replaced with Victoria/Corpus Christi south of downtown Houston.  Seeing how those are US-59 control cities they shouldn't persist once the interstate is completed.  Maybe they stay for the life of the sign?  Lets say it takes 20 years to finish I-69 from Cleveland to the Louisiana/Texas State Line, but the signs with Cleveland, Lufkin and Nacogdoches still have an extra 5 years left on them then.  Will they remain until their lifespan is up or be replaced with more "interstate" worthy control city signs?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 03, 2022, 06:48:00 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 03, 2022, 11:09:11 AM
Quote from: me
No. None of those should be control cities. I'm not a football fan, so my association with them is, in order,

1) Where?
2) I have heard of this place but have no idea where in Alabama it is
3) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Oklahoma City
4) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Austin
5) Isn't that where the Secretary of Transportation is from?


Lafayette IN - Purdue Univ, about halfway between Indianapolis and Gary on I-65
Tuscaloosa AL - U of Alabama, halfway between Birmingham and Meridian on I-20/59
Gainesville FL - U of Florida, 2 hours north of Tampa on I-75
Waco TX - Baylor Univ, halfway between Dallas and Austin on I-35
South Bend IN - U of Notre Dame, 80 miles east of Chicago on I-80/90

The fact that you feel the need to post this list is why this would be a bad way to choose control cities. If you have to define a town as "between Indianapolis and Gary" for me to know where it is, why not just sign Indianapolis and Gary?

Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 03, 2022, 04:30:06 PM
It hard for me to call inter-Texas travel as a long road trip, but it is for a lot of people.  I can drive to El Paso from here and it be about 600 miles. 

Lord help us if there's more than one Texas to travel between now...

(Yeah, I know you meant intra-Texas. ;) )
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on August 03, 2022, 09:51:22 PM
Hands down Michigan has the best control cities of them all. I especially like Grand Radips.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on August 04, 2022, 10:10:01 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 03, 2022, 06:48:00 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 03, 2022, 11:09:11 AM
Quote from: me
No. None of those should be control cities. I'm not a football fan, so my association with them is, in order,

1) Where?
2) I have heard of this place but have no idea where in Alabama it is
3) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Oklahoma City
4) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Austin
5) Isn't that where the Secretary of Transportation is from?


Lafayette IN - Purdue Univ, about halfway between Indianapolis and Gary on I-65
Tuscaloosa AL - U of Alabama, halfway between Birmingham and Meridian on I-20/59
Gainesville FL - U of Florida, 2 hours north of Tampa on I-75
Waco TX - Baylor Univ, halfway between Dallas and Austin on I-35
South Bend IN - U of Notre Dame, 80 miles east of Chicago on I-80/90

The fact that you feel the need to post this list is why this would be a bad way to choose control cities. If you have to define a town as "between Indianapolis and Gary" for me to know where it is, why not just sign Indianapolis and Gary?

Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 03, 2022, 04:30:06 PM
It hard for me to call inter-Texas travel as a long road trip, but it is for a lot of people.  I can drive to El Paso from here and it be about 600 miles. 

Lord help us if there's more than one Texas to travel between now...

(Yeah, I know you meant intra-Texas. ;) )

Corrected.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on August 04, 2022, 10:36:36 AM
Sort of surprised we got through 8 pages of the thread without a tier list, so here is one with the states I know of first

A+ - Consistent larger cities as controls on both long-distance interstates and US/SR freeways/expressways
- Michigan
- Washington

A - Consistent control cities for larger cities or junction points on long-distance interstates, but fails on the US/SR freeways/expressways
- Indiana InDOT
- Kentucky
- Ohio ODOT
- PTC

B - Mostly posts larger cities on long-distance interstates, with a bit of inconsistency here and there
- Missouri

C - Same as B, but also sneak in some non-city control cities in locations that doesn't make sense
- California ("other Desert Cities)
- Illinois ("Iowa" on I-80. "Indiana" and "Wisconsin" on I-90/94 makes sense though)
- ITR ("Ohio" when most of the ITR isn't even part of the fastest route from Chicago to Cincinnati or Columbus)
- ISTHA (directional suburbs)
- Massachusetts ("NH/Maine")
- New Hampshire ("All Maine Points")

D - Posts too many small towns that your average driver never heard of on interstates, doesn't post out of state control cities unless absolutely necessary
- New Mexico
- Pennsylvania PennDOT

F - Lacks control cities in a lot of places
- OTA ("Thru Traffic")
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 11:36:16 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 03, 2022, 06:48:00 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 03, 2022, 11:09:11 AM
Quote from: me
No. None of those should be control cities. I'm not a football fan, so my association with them is, in order,

1) Where?
2) I have heard of this place but have no idea where in Alabama it is
3) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Oklahoma City
4) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Austin
5) Isn't that where the Secretary of Transportation is from?


Lafayette IN - Purdue Univ, about halfway between Indianapolis and Gary on I-65
Tuscaloosa AL - U of Alabama, halfway between Birmingham and Meridian on I-20/59
Gainesville FL - U of Florida, 2 hours north of Tampa on I-75
Waco TX - Baylor Univ, halfway between Dallas and Austin on I-35
South Bend IN - U of Notre Dame, 80 miles east of Chicago on I-80/90

The fact that you feel the need to post this list is why this would be a bad way to choose control cities. If you have to define a town as "between Indianapolis and Gary" for me to know where it is, why not just sign Indianapolis and Gary?

Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 03, 2022, 04:30:06 PM
It hard for me to call inter-Texas travel as a long road trip, but it is for a lot of people.  I can drive to El Paso from here and it be about 600 miles. 

Lord help us if there's more than one Texas to travel between now...

(Yeah, I know you meant intra-Texas. ;) )
Scott, you specifically said "Where?" in response to Lafayette IN. I don't know if you were playing dumb or not but I gave you an answer. Lafayette and West Lafayette have 125k in the 2 cities and 200k metro. This would make it bigger than Lawton in your homestate which is a control city on 44. Plus the fact the city has a major university does make Lafayette an important city both in Indiana and regionally in the Midwest.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 12:38:22 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 04, 2022, 10:36:36 AM
Sort of surprised we got through 8 pages of the thread without a tier list, so here is one with the states I know of first

A+ - Consistent larger cities as controls on both long-distance interstates and US/SR freeways/expressways
- Michigan
- Washington

A - Consistent control cities for larger cities or junction points on long-distance interstates, but fails on the US/SR freeways/expressways
- Indiana InDOT
- Kentucky
- Ohio ODOT
- PTC

B - Mostly posts larger cities on long-distance interstates, with a bit of inconsistency here and there
- Missouri

C - Same as B, but also sneak in some non-city control cities in locations that doesn't make sense
- California ("other Desert Cities)
- Illinois ("Iowa" on I-80. "Indiana" and "Wisconsin" on I-90/94 makes sense though)
- ITR ("Ohio" when most of the ITR isn't even part of the fastest route from Chicago to Cincinnati or Columbus)
- ISTHA (directional suburbs)
- Massachusetts ("NH/Maine")
- New Hampshire ("All Maine Points")

D - Posts too many small towns that your average driver never heard of on interstates, doesn't post out of state control cities unless absolutely necessary
- New Mexico
- Pennsylvania PennDOT

F - Lacks control cities in a lot of places
- OTA ("Thru Traffic")

For states I am familiar with:

Georgia gets an A or B, the Interstate control cities are generally good, we don't really have long-distance US/SR expressways, but US/SR non-expressways tend to have shorter-distance control cities (which is acceptable). I like that Georgia uses Birmingham for I-59 SB, when in Alabama they would use Gadsden. The main disagreement I have with GA is that for I-95 north of Savannah, Florence is always posted with "SC", when in general I disagree with including the state when it's not ambiguous.

South Carolina gets an A, similar to Georgia. I do think that Charleston could be a control city from I-95 though (and to a lesser extent, Columbia for NB I-95)

North Carolina gets, I guess, a "D+", they use too many small towns, but they don't necessarily avoid using out-of-state control cities.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on August 04, 2022, 01:38:11 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 03, 2022, 04:17:32 PM

Only if your state is like NC and goes slap happy with interstate shields that all the major US route freeways are future interstates. Otherwise, there's lots of examples of US or state route expressways/freeways used as part of long distance trips, like US 35 east of Dayton I mentioned earlier.

New Mexico only has like three non-interstate freeways:

- NM 423 (Paseo del Norte) in Albuquerque is a freeway (though not built to interstate standards) from Coors Blvd. to I-25
- US 84/285 from Santa Fe to Pojoaque
- US 70 from Las Cruces to Organ
- I even read rumors that NMDOT plans to upgrade the NM 599 bypass around Santa Fe to a full freeway.


Unlike North Carolina, New Mexico is not going to designate their non-interstate freeways as future interstates.


Quote
I mean, we don't really have US route freeways out west outside of cities


Pretty much US101 in California and US395 in Washington, yeah?

Exactly.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 02:12:50 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 11:36:16 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 03, 2022, 06:48:00 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 03, 2022, 11:09:11 AM
Quote from: me
No. None of those should be control cities. I'm not a football fan, so my association with them is, in order,

1) Where?
2) I have heard of this place but have no idea where in Alabama it is
3) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Oklahoma City
4) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Austin
5) Isn't that where the Secretary of Transportation is from?


Lafayette IN - Purdue Univ, about halfway between Indianapolis and Gary on I-65
Tuscaloosa AL - U of Alabama, halfway between Birmingham and Meridian on I-20/59
Gainesville FL - U of Florida, 2 hours north of Tampa on I-75
Waco TX - Baylor Univ, halfway between Dallas and Austin on I-35
South Bend IN - U of Notre Dame, 80 miles east of Chicago on I-80/90

The fact that you feel the need to post this list is why this would be a bad way to choose control cities. If you have to define a town as "between Indianapolis and Gary" for me to know where it is, why not just sign Indianapolis and Gary?

Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 03, 2022, 04:30:06 PM
It hard for me to call inter-Texas travel as a long road trip, but it is for a lot of people.  I can drive to El Paso from here and it be about 600 miles. 

Lord help us if there's more than one Texas to travel between now...

(Yeah, I know you meant intra-Texas. ;) )
Scott, you specifically said "Where?" in response to Lafayette IN. I don't know if you were playing dumb or not but I gave you an answer. Lafayette and West Lafayette have 125k in the 2 cities and 200k metro. This would make it bigger than Lawton in your homestate which is a control city on 44. Plus the fact the city has a major university does make Lafayette an important city both in Indiana and regionally in the Midwest.

And? Control cities are about prominence, not population. There are 70 cities in California bigger than Lawton, but that doesn't mean they all need to be control cities, because they're frankly not that significant in the grand scheme of things. I'd have the same problems with Lancaster, Concord, Downey, or West Covina–despite those cities having 100,000+ population only those with a firm grasp on California geography will be able to place them, and if you can do that you don't need a sign to tell you where to go. And I would hope you don't think that Victorville needs to be a control city on I-15.

Edit to add: { As for Lawton, that's there because it's a dire warning to anyone who chooses not to exit I-44 that they'll end up in Lawton it's the largest city in the entire southwest quadrant of the state. And the only other option for a control city would be Wichita Falls, which is 1) confusing because northbound I-35 uses Wichita coming out of Oklahoma City and 2) barely any larger than Lawton is. }

Fact of the matter is, college football is a terrible way to decide control cities, because nobody knows or cares about those cities other than people that watch college football. Which is a minority of people.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 04, 2022, 02:15:16 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 02:12:50 PM
prominence

I'm going to start using this term in all of my control city discussions. I use it all the time when it comes to mountains, but I never really thought of it in terms of cities.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:16:48 PM
I think I would make the opposite argument. Population is a good indicator of prominence, but not population of the city proper. Population of the urbanized area, or metropolitan area, or media market. Anything where the actual measure is standardized to be applied the same everywhere rather than being subject to local political whims (as city limits are).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 04, 2022, 02:20:27 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:16:48 PM
I think I would make the opposite argument. Population is a good indicator of prominence, but not population of the city proper. Population of the urbanized area, or metropolitan area, or media market. Anything where the actual measure is standardized to be applied the same everywhere rather than being subject to local political whims (as city limits are).

I'll disagree.  Let's say hypothetically there is an interstate from City A (5 million) to City B (5 million) and those two cities are 600 miles apart. Between them, there is only one town, Town C, which has 50,000 people, and it's halfway between the two. I would certainly sign Town C as a control city because it's prominence is high, not its population.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 02:27:51 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 04, 2022, 02:15:16 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 02:12:50 PM
prominence

I'm going to start using this term in all of my control city discussions. I use it all the time when it comes to mountains, but I never really thought of it in terms of cities.

It's a good analogy, for the same reasons it's used when it comes to mountains.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 02:46:34 PM
Scott, I don't disagree about the control cities being about prominence. That's in fact part of my point about small to medium cities that have major universities being used.

As for those California cities you mentioned, all part of a bigger metro area. Lancaster may be the one exception to that because it is more of a city on its own. And no I would not use Victorville. Barstow and San Bernardino are close enough to each other.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on August 04, 2022, 02:47:03 PM
I'm wondering what the worst control city in Michigan is now. Don't say Mackinac Bridge either because that is probably one of the best ones.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 02:53:36 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 02:46:34 PM
Scott, I don't disagree about the control cities being about prominence. That's in fact part of my point about small to medium cities that have major universities being used.

And my point is that major universities do not really add any prominence if you have no reason to interact with that university.

I doubt most people could put a pin on Stillwater, Oklahoma on a map. Hell, I doubt most people could for Norman–I still feel the need to put "Norman, OK" rather than just "Norman" in my profile–and it's the third-largest city in Oklahoma.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:55:02 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 04, 2022, 02:20:27 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:16:48 PM
I think I would make the opposite argument. Population is a good indicator of prominence, but not population of the city proper. Population of the urbanized area, or metropolitan area, or media market. Anything where the actual measure is standardized to be applied the same everywhere rather than being subject to local political whims (as city limits are).

I'll disagree.  Let's say hypothetically there is an interstate from City A (5 million) to City B (5 million) and those two cities are 600 miles apart. Between them, there is only one town, Town C, which has 50,000 people, and it's halfway between the two. I would certainly sign Town C as a control city because it's prominence is high, not its population.

If it's the largest town for 600 miles then most likely it has its own media market, which I specifically listed as one of the indicators of prominence.

I notice that in the West the media markets often cover whole states, so in that area we could focus on other criteria such as urbanized area population.

But in the end a control city exists to guide motorists, so the real question is, out of long-distance traffic departing city A, are more of them going to city B or to town C. That is what should really be used to determine control cities in edge cases.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 02:56:25 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:55:02 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 04, 2022, 02:20:27 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:16:48 PM
I think I would make the opposite argument. Population is a good indicator of prominence, but not population of the city proper. Population of the urbanized area, or metropolitan area, or media market. Anything where the actual measure is standardized to be applied the same everywhere rather than being subject to local political whims (as city limits are).

I'll disagree.  Let's say hypothetically there is an interstate from City A (5 million) to City B (5 million) and those two cities are 600 miles apart. Between them, there is only one town, Town C, which has 50,000 people, and it's halfway between the two. I would certainly sign Town C as a control city because it's prominence is high, not its population.

If it's the largest town for 600 miles then most likely it has its own media market, which I specifically listed as one of the indicators of prominence.

What is with everyone wanting to rope for-profit entities into control city choice? It will have a media market if the media companies think that will make them more money. It is an indicator of nothing but that.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:58:42 PM
Profit is not a bad thing, but that's a discussion for another forum.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 04, 2022, 03:01:27 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:55:02 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 04, 2022, 02:20:27 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:16:48 PM
I think I would make the opposite argument. Population is a good indicator of prominence, but not population of the city proper. Population of the urbanized area, or metropolitan area, or media market. Anything where the actual measure is standardized to be applied the same everywhere rather than being subject to local political whims (as city limits are).

I'll disagree.  Let's say hypothetically there is an interstate from City A (5 million) to City B (5 million) and those two cities are 600 miles apart. Between them, there is only one town, Town C, which has 50,000 people, and it's halfway between the two. I would certainly sign Town C as a control city because it's prominence is high, not its population.

If it's the largest town for 600 miles then most likely it has its own media market, which I specifically listed as one of the indicators of prominence.

It's not the largest city for 600 miles, but should Glendive, MT be a control city on I-94? It has its own media market.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 03:02:45 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 02:53:36 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 02:46:34 PM
Scott, I don't disagree about the control cities being about prominence. That's in fact part of my point about small to medium cities that have major universities being used.

And my point is that major universities do not really add any prominence if you have no reason to interact with that university.

I doubt most people could put a pin on Stillwater, Oklahoma on a map. Hell, I doubt most people could for Norman–I still feel the need to put "Norman, OK" rather than just "Norman" in my profile–and it's the third-largest city in Oklahoma.

But Norman is still within the OKC metro. Stillwater might be far enough away but it doesn't come to the pop requirement I had for the university rule. (50k)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 03:05:36 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 04, 2022, 03:01:27 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:55:02 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 04, 2022, 02:20:27 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:16:48 PM
I think I would make the opposite argument. Population is a good indicator of prominence, but not population of the city proper. Population of the urbanized area, or metropolitan area, or media market. Anything where the actual measure is standardized to be applied the same everywhere rather than being subject to local political whims (as city limits are).

I'll disagree.  Let's say hypothetically there is an interstate from City A (5 million) to City B (5 million) and those two cities are 600 miles apart. Between them, there is only one town, Town C, which has 50,000 people, and it's halfway between the two. I would certainly sign Town C as a control city because it's prominence is high, not its population.

If it's the largest town for 600 miles then most likely it has its own media market, which I specifically listed as one of the indicators of prominence.

It's not the largest city for 600 miles, but should Glendive, MT be a control city on I-94? It has its own media market.


Yes. But tbh I'm more concerned with selection of control cities in the more populated regions of the country. I'm not going to change my overall ideas about control cities because of one specific case in one of the least populated states.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 03:15:40 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:58:42 PM
Profit is not a bad thing, but that's a discussion for another forum.

A profit motive is a form of self-interest, which is the antithesis of objective decision-making.

Quote from: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 03:02:45 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 02:53:36 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 02:46:34 PM
Scott, I don't disagree about the control cities being about prominence. That's in fact part of my point about small to medium cities that have major universities being used.

And my point is that major universities do not really add any prominence if you have no reason to interact with that university.

I doubt most people could put a pin on Stillwater, Oklahoma on a map. Hell, I doubt most people could for Norman–I still feel the need to put "Norman, OK" rather than just "Norman" in my profile–and it's the third-largest city in Oklahoma.

But Norman is still within the OKC metro. Stillwater might be far enough away but it doesn't come to the pop requirement I had for the university rule. (50k)

Do you actually think that if you pulled a random resident of Elko, Nevada, who doesn't watch football or own a paper road atlas, and dropped them in Chicago that a control city of "Lafayette" would help them find their way?

Keep in mind, most of my social circle has no clue where Joplin is, and that's in an adjoining state and has plenty of reasons that makes it a good control city.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on August 04, 2022, 03:22:24 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 03:15:40 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:58:42 PM
Profit is not a bad thing, but that's a discussion for another forum.

A profit motive is a form of self-interest, which is the antithesis of objective decision-making.

Quote from: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 03:02:45 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 02:53:36 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 02:46:34 PM
Scott, I don't disagree about the control cities being about prominence. That's in fact part of my point about small to medium cities that have major universities being used.

And my point is that major universities do not really add any prominence if you have no reason to interact with that university.

I doubt most people could put a pin on Stillwater, Oklahoma on a map. Hell, I doubt most people could for Norman–I still feel the need to put "Norman, OK" rather than just "Norman" in my profile–and it's the third-largest city in Oklahoma.

But Norman is still within the OKC metro. Stillwater might be far enough away but it doesn't come to the pop requirement I had for the university rule. (50k)

Do you actually think that if you pulled a random resident of Elko, Nevada, who doesn't watch football or own a paper road atlas, and dropped them in Chicago that a control city of "Lafayette" would help them find their way?

Keep in mind, most of my social circle has no clue where Joplin is, and that's in an adjoining state and has plenty of reasons that makes it a good control city.

I think control cities should be based on if a town has a Walmart or not.  At least three Walmarts, mega control city.

Or maybe it should be based on the number of famous people were born there....
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 03:30:00 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 04, 2022, 03:22:24 PM
Or maybe it should be based on the number of famous people were born there....

There's some town in western Kansas (I think WaKeeney) that has signs along the Interstate directing traffic to "Walter Chrysler Boyhood Home". Or in other words, "exit here to see the town that Walter Chrysler made it his life's work building machines to take him as far away from as possible".
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 03:33:05 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 03:15:40 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:58:42 PM
Profit is not a bad thing, but that's a discussion for another forum.

A profit motive is a form of self-interest, which is the antithesis of objective decision-making.

Quote from: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 03:02:45 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 02:53:36 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 02:46:34 PM
Scott, I don't disagree about the control cities being about prominence. That's in fact part of my point about small to medium cities that have major universities being used.

And my point is that major universities do not really add any prominence if you have no reason to interact with that university.

I doubt most people could put a pin on Stillwater, Oklahoma on a map. Hell, I doubt most people could for Norman—I still feel the need to put "Norman, OK" rather than just "Norman" in my profile—and it's the third-largest city in Oklahoma.

But Norman is still within the OKC metro. Stillwater might be far enough away but it doesn't come to the pop requirement I had for the university rule. (50k)

Do you actually think that if you pulled a random resident of Elko, Nevada, who doesn't watch football or own a paper road atlas, and dropped them in Chicago that a control city of "Lafayette" would help them find their way?

Keep in mind, most of my social circle has no clue where Joplin is, and that's in an adjoining state and has plenty of reasons that makes it a good control city.

That's very true. It may not help that person. But at the same time there's no reason why Lafayette (and other university cities like it) couldn't be a secondary control city. It doesn't even have that standing by INDOT which I think is criminal.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 03:36:27 PM
Works for me. I'm fine with pretty much anything being a secondary control city (even otherwise-unremarkable county seats are fine for this purpose), so long as the primary control city is present too.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hotdogPi on August 04, 2022, 03:39:19 PM
Side note: should state capitals really have that much prominence? MassDOT signs Concord NH on I-93 north (state name required to avoid confusion with the one in Massachusetts), but Manchester is both closer and larger. I would prefer Manchester to be on the signs.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 03:46:59 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 04, 2022, 03:39:19 PM
Side note: should state capitals really have that much prominence? MassDOT signs Concord NH on I-93 north (state name required to avoid confusion with the one in Massachusetts), but Manchester is both closer and larger. I would prefer Manchester to be on the signs.

It sort of depends. Keep in mind that most people are required to learn all the state capitals in school, so if you ask the aforementioned non-football watching, non-map-reading person from Elko, Nevada–who I am going to name Sally–to name one city in New Hampshire, she'd probably say Concord. So Concord is probably a good way to indicate "this road goes to New Hampshire" without just signing "New Hampshire" and implying it's a good way to get to Portsmouth too.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 03:49:43 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 03:46:59 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 04, 2022, 03:39:19 PM
Side note: should state capitals really have that much prominence? MassDOT signs Concord NH on I-93 north (state name required to avoid confusion with the one in Massachusetts), but Manchester is both closer and larger. I would prefer Manchester to be on the signs.

It sort of depends. Keep in mind that most people are required to learn all the state capitals in school, so if you ask the aforementioned non-football watching, non-map-reading person from Elko, Nevada–who I am going to name Sally–to name one city in New Hampshire, she'd probably say Concord. So Concord is probably a good way to indicate "this road goes to New Hampshire" without just signing "New Hampshire" and implying it's a good way to get to Portsmouth too.
Also keep in mind that there is a Manchester in Essex County Mass.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 03:51:50 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 03:15:40 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:58:42 PM
Profit is not a bad thing, but that's a discussion for another forum.

A profit motive is a form of self-interest, which is the antithesis of objective decision-making.


Is there such a thing as objective decision making for this topic, specifically, determination of control cities?

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 03:46:59 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 04, 2022, 03:39:19 PM
Side note: should state capitals really have that much prominence? MassDOT signs Concord NH on I-93 north (state name required to avoid confusion with the one in Massachusetts), but Manchester is both closer and larger. I would prefer Manchester to be on the signs.

It sort of depends. Keep in mind that most people are required to learn all the state capitals in school, so if you ask the aforementioned non-football watching, non-map-reading person from Elko, Nevada–who I am going to name Sally–to name one city in New Hampshire, she'd probably say Concord. So Concord is probably a good way to indicate "this road goes to New Hampshire" without just signing "New Hampshire" and implying it's a good way to get to Portsmouth too.

There's plenty of immigrants in the US that didn't go to school in this country.




As far as secondary control cities, I don't think there should be such a thing, as the FHWA/MUTCD already are trying to get states to reduce message loading, and not having secondary control cities would be a good way to meet that requirement.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 04:03:54 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 03:51:50 PM
There's plenty of immigrants in the US that didn't go to school in this country.




As far as secondary control cities, I don't think there should be such a thing, as the FHWA/MUTCD already are trying to get states to reduce message loading, and not having secondary control cities would be a good way to meet that requirement.

Well, if we're going to design around the fact that some people have no knowledge of geography at all, maybe we should just abolish control cities altogether. After all, they are only useful if you know where that city is.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 04:08:22 PM
Some states do take that approach on 3dis, and from what I have seen I disagree with that too. The road still leads somewhere, they could at least post something.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 04:22:56 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 03:51:50 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 03:15:40 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:58:42 PM
Profit is not a bad thing, but that's a discussion for another forum.

A profit motive is a form of self-interest, which is the antithesis of objective decision-making.


Is there such a thing as objective decision making for this topic, specifically, determination of control cities?

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 04, 2022, 03:46:59 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 04, 2022, 03:39:19 PM
Side note: should state capitals really have that much prominence? MassDOT signs Concord NH on I-93 north (state name required to avoid confusion with the one in Massachusetts), but Manchester is both closer and larger. I would prefer Manchester to be on the signs.

It sort of depends. Keep in mind that most people are required to learn all the state capitals in school, so if you ask the aforementioned non-football watching, non-map-reading person from Elko, Nevada–who I am going to name Sally–to name one city in New Hampshire, she'd probably say Concord. So Concord is probably a good way to indicate "this road goes to New Hampshire" without just signing "New Hampshire" and implying it's a good way to get to Portsmouth too.

There's plenty of immigrants in the US that didn't go to school in this country.




As far as secondary control cities, I don't think there should be such a thing, as the FHWA/MUTCD already are trying to get states to reduce message loading, and not having secondary control cities would be a good way to meet that requirement.
Unfortunately, no there is not anything that is objective for control cities. For example, Nevada uses Elko as a primary control city on I-80.  How many people have heard of Elko as from us geography nuts? Probably not many. But because it is a halfway point between Reno and Salt Lake City, it's used. But if Elko was in say Virginia, there's no way that would be used as a primary control city. Control cities are for the most part subjective.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 04, 2022, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 04:22:56 PM
Control cities are for the most part subjective.

You say that, but post this:

Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 11:59:05 AM
I still believe that their should be a hierarchy for control cities. This would be my criteria for primary control cities eligibility. There would be exceptions to the rules:

1. Largest City or Metro Area in the state.
2. Capital City
3. City over 100k that is more than 50 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 50k that has a Division 1 Football University or College AND is more than 50 miles from the previous rules.
5. Tourist destinations that get over 500k visitors a year. that are 25 miles from a previous rule. So this would be places like Wisconsin Dells and Pigeon Forge.
6. City over 20k that is more than 150 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
7. City over 10k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

Secondary Control Cities:
1. City over 50k
2. Suburban satellite cities that are 25 miles or more from the Downtown of a metro area. This would include places like Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora and Joliet for Chicago.
3. City over 25k that is more than 50 miles from previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 10k that is more than 100 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
5. City over 5k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

:hmmm:
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: tdindy88 on August 04, 2022, 05:30:08 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 04, 2022, 02:47:03 PM
I'm wondering what the worst control city in Michigan is now. Don't say Mackinac Bridge either because that is probably one of the best ones.

What about Clare?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 06:32:31 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 04, 2022, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 04:22:56 PM
Control cities are for the most part subjective.

You say that, but post this:

Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 11:59:05 AM
I still believe that their should be a hierarchy for control cities. This would be my criteria for primary control cities eligibility. There would be exceptions to the rules:

1. Largest City or Metro Area in the state.
2. Capital City
3. City over 100k that is more than 50 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 50k that has a Division 1 Football University or College AND is more than 50 miles from the previous rules.
5. Tourist destinations that get over 500k visitors a year. that are 25 miles from a previous rule. So this would be places like Wisconsin Dells and Pigeon Forge.
6. City over 20k that is more than 150 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
7. City over 10k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

Secondary Control Cities:
1. City over 50k
2. Suburban satellite cities that are 25 miles or more from the Downtown of a metro area. This would include places like Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora and Joliet for Chicago.
3. City over 25k that is more than 50 miles from previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 10k that is more than 100 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
5. City over 5k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

:hmmm:

They are subjective CURRENTLY.  The hierarchy was an idea to make things more objective.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on August 04, 2022, 08:12:45 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 06:32:31 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 04, 2022, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 04, 2022, 04:22:56 PM
Control cities are for the most part subjective.

You say that, but post this:

Quote from: hobsini2 on August 02, 2022, 11:59:05 AM
I still believe that their should be a hierarchy for control cities. This would be my criteria for primary control cities eligibility. There would be exceptions to the rules:

1. Largest City or Metro Area in the state.
2. Capital City
3. City over 100k that is more than 50 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 50k that has a Division 1 Football University or College AND is more than 50 miles from the previous rules.
5. Tourist destinations that get over 500k visitors a year. that are 25 miles from a previous rule. So this would be places like Wisconsin Dells and Pigeon Forge.
6. City over 20k that is more than 150 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
7. City over 10k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

Secondary Control Cities:
1. City over 50k
2. Suburban satellite cities that are 25 miles or more from the Downtown of a metro area. This would include places like Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora and Joliet for Chicago.
3. City over 25k that is more than 50 miles from previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 10k that is more than 100 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
5. City over 5k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

:hmmm:

They are subjective CURRENTLY.  The hierarchy was an idea to make things more objective.

Sorry. Misunderstood you.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on August 04, 2022, 10:53:55 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on August 04, 2022, 05:30:08 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 04, 2022, 02:47:03 PM
I'm wondering what the worst control city in Michigan is now. Don't say Mackinac Bridge either because that is probably one of the best ones.

What about Clare?
Kind of a random one but the junction of US-10 and 127 and the southern end of M-115 makes it kind of a junction. But I guess one of them has the be the worst lol.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 05, 2022, 12:45:19 PM
So maybe there should be a tiered list per state of what would be considered good control cities.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hbelkins on August 05, 2022, 02:01:10 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on August 04, 2022, 02:20:27 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 04, 2022, 02:16:48 PM
I think I would make the opposite argument. Population is a good indicator of prominence, but not population of the city proper. Population of the urbanized area, or metropolitan area, or media market. Anything where the actual measure is standardized to be applied the same everywhere rather than being subject to local political whims (as city limits are).

I'll disagree.  Let's say hypothetically there is an interstate from City A (5 million) to City B (5 million) and those two cities are 600 miles apart. Between them, there is only one town, Town C, which has 50,000 people, and it's halfway between the two. I would certainly sign Town C as a control city because it's prominence is high, not its population.

Does Town C serve as a major crossroads or traffic decision point? If so, then it makes a good control city. If not, skip it and go directly from A to B.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on August 05, 2022, 02:08:24 PM
Crossroad locations are how we get control cities like Benson NC, Hazleton PA, etc
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on August 05, 2022, 03:46:47 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 05, 2022, 02:08:24 PM
Crossroad locations are how we get control cities like Benson NC, Hazleton PA, etc

And Albert Lea, which is really not a worthwhile control from Minneapolis because little long-haul traffic is going to be shifting from I-35 to I-90 there.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on August 05, 2022, 04:01:52 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 05, 2022, 03:46:47 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 05, 2022, 02:08:24 PM
Crossroad locations are how we get control cities like Benson NC, Hazleton PA, etc

And Albert Lea, which is really not a worthwhile control from Minneapolis because little long-haul traffic is going to be shifting from I-35 to I-90 there.

Even if there were enough traffic shifting to the other route, that would justify considering off-route destinations as the control city, not the crossroad location itself. E.g. for I-95 north in NC, use Raleigh instead of Benson, because of the traffic that exits to I-40 west.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kirbykart on August 05, 2022, 05:26:30 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 05, 2022, 02:08:24 PM
Crossroad locations are how we get control cities like Benson NC, Hazleton PA, etc
PA would probably still sign Hazleton even if it wasn't a major crossroads.  :bigass:
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on August 05, 2022, 06:33:50 PM
I think Michigan's are all fine so for Interstate highways and US highways this is how I would do it and Michigan does it basically the same.

I-69: Port Huron, Flint, Lansing, Fort Wayne (that's how it's signed and it's fine all the way through).

I-75: Toledo, Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, Mackinac Bridge, Sault Ste. Marie, St. Ignace (this one is fine too. St. Ignace is used in Sault Ste. Marie before Mackinac Bridge takes over before getting to St. Ignace).

I-94: Port Huron, Detroit, Kalamazoo, Chicago. (I added Kalamazoo for a primary control city, it is the halfway point between Detroit and Chicago). Kalamazoo is an urban area of almost 200,000 and makes more sense than anything between there and Detroit including Ann Arbor, even though not really a part of Metro Detroit it's rather close to Detroit. It'd be like signing Pontiac on I-75 instead of Flint.

I-96: Muskegon, Grand Rapids, Lansing, Detroit. (Nothing changes here).

US-2: St. Ignace, Manistique, Escanaba, Iron Mountain, Florence, WI, Crystal Falls, MI, Ironwood.

US-8: Nothing.

US-10: Bay City, Midland, Clare, Reed City, Baldwin, Ludington.

US-12: Detroit, Ypsilanti, Saline, Jonesville, Coldwater, Sturgis, Niles, New Buffalo.

US-23: Toledo, Ann Arbor, Flint, Saginaw, Mackinac Bridge (when concurrent with I-75 for Saginaw and the bridge), Standish/Alpena (at the northern terminus of the concurrency), Alpena by itself whenever there needs to be a control city, then Mackinaw City.

US-24: Waterford, Southfield, Monroe, Toledo.

US-31: South Bend, Benton Harbor, Holland, Grand Haven, Muskegon, Ludington, Manistee, Traverse City, Charlevoix, Petoskey, Mackinaw City.

US-41: Menominee, Escanaba, Marquette, Houghton, Copper Harbor.

US-45: Ontonagon, Watersmeet, Eagle River, WI.

US-127: Nothing south of Hudson to the Ohio line, Hudson, Jackson, Lansing, Mount Pleasant, Mackinac Bridge.

US-131: Indiana Toll Road, Three Rivers, Kalamazoo, Grand Rapids, Cadillac, Petoskey.

US-141: Green Bay, WI, Iron Mountain, same as US-2 to Crystal Falls, Houghton.

US-223: Jackson, Adrian, Toledo.

I-194: DOWNTOWN Battle Creek, Sturgis.

I-196: Benton Harbor, Holland, Grand Rapids.

I-275: Toledo, Plymouth, Lansing,

I-296: I'll skip this one.

I-375: DOWNTOWN, Flint.

I-475: DOWNTOWN Flint, Saginaw, Detroit.

I-496: DOWNTOWN Lansing, Detroit/Jackson, Grand Rapids/Fort Wayne.

I-675: DOWNTOWN Saginaw, Mackinac Bridge, Flint.

I-696: Port Huron, Lansing.


I didn't change much but did make a few minor changes.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: CoreySamson on August 06, 2022, 12:03:34 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 04, 2022, 10:36:36 AM
Sort of surprised we got through 8 pages of the thread without a tier list, so here is one with the states I know of first

A+ - Consistent larger cities as controls on both long-distance interstates and US/SR freeways/expressways
- Michigan
- Washington

A - Consistent control cities for larger cities or junction points on long-distance interstates, but fails on the US/SR freeways/expressways
- Indiana InDOT
- Kentucky
- Ohio ODOT
- PTC

B - Mostly posts larger cities on long-distance interstates, with a bit of inconsistency here and there
- Missouri

C - Same as B, but also sneak in some non-city control cities in locations that doesn't make sense
- California ("other Desert Cities)
- Illinois ("Iowa" on I-80. "Indiana" and "Wisconsin" on I-90/94 makes sense though)
- ITR ("Ohio" when most of the ITR isn't even part of the fastest route from Chicago to Cincinnati or Columbus)
- ISTHA (directional suburbs)
- Massachusetts ("NH/Maine")
- New Hampshire ("All Maine Points")

D - Posts too many small towns that your average driver never heard of on interstates, doesn't post out of state control cities unless absolutely necessary
- New Mexico
- Pennsylvania PennDOT

F - Lacks control cities in a lot of places
- OTA ("Thru Traffic")

I would put Texas and Louisiana in A or B personally. They're pretty solid on interstates other than a couple slip ups (Gainesville on I-35 for Texas, Bay St. Louis on I-10 for Louisiana, among others).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 06, 2022, 01:11:03 AM
Quote from: CoreySamson on August 06, 2022, 12:03:34 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 04, 2022, 10:36:36 AM
Sort of surprised we got through 8 pages of the thread without a tier list, so here is one with the states I know of first

A+ - Consistent larger cities as controls on both long-distance interstates and US/SR freeways/expressways
- Michigan
- Washington

A - Consistent control cities for larger cities or junction points on long-distance interstates, but fails on the US/SR freeways/expressways
- Indiana InDOT
- Kentucky
- Ohio ODOT
- PTC

B - Mostly posts larger cities on long-distance interstates, with a bit of inconsistency here and there
- Missouri

C - Same as B, but also sneak in some non-city control cities in locations that doesn't make sense
- California ("other Desert Cities)
- Illinois ("Iowa" on I-80. "Indiana" and "Wisconsin" on I-90/94 makes sense though)
- ITR ("Ohio" when most of the ITR isn't even part of the fastest route from Chicago to Cincinnati or Columbus)
- ISTHA (directional suburbs)
- Massachusetts ("NH/Maine")
- New Hampshire ("All Maine Points")

D - Posts too many small towns that your average driver never heard of on interstates, doesn't post out of state control cities unless absolutely necessary
- New Mexico
- Pennsylvania PennDOT

F - Lacks control cities in a lot of places
- OTA ("Thru Traffic")

I would put Texas and Louisiana in A or B personally. They're pretty solid on interstates other than a couple slip ups (Gainesville on I-35 for Texas, Bay St. Louis on I-10 for Louisiana, among others).
I don't love Denton or Van Horn as control cities.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on August 06, 2022, 12:33:22 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 06, 2022, 01:11:03 AM
Quote from: CoreySamson on August 06, 2022, 12:03:34 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 04, 2022, 10:36:36 AM
Sort of surprised we got through 8 pages of the thread without a tier list, so here is one with the states I know of first

A+ - Consistent larger cities as controls on both long-distance interstates and US/SR freeways/expressways
- Michigan
- Washington

A - Consistent control cities for larger cities or junction points on long-distance interstates, but fails on the US/SR freeways/expressways
- Indiana InDOT
- Kentucky
- Ohio ODOT
- PTC

B - Mostly posts larger cities on long-distance interstates, with a bit of inconsistency here and there
- Missouri

C - Same as B, but also sneak in some non-city control cities in locations that doesn't make sense
- California ("other Desert Cities)
- Illinois ("Iowa" on I-80. "Indiana" and "Wisconsin" on I-90/94 makes sense though)
- ITR ("Ohio" when most of the ITR isn't even part of the fastest route from Chicago to Cincinnati or Columbus)
- ISTHA (directional suburbs)
- Massachusetts ("NH/Maine")
- New Hampshire ("All Maine Points")

D - Posts too many small towns that your average driver never heard of on interstates, doesn't post out of state control cities unless absolutely necessary
- New Mexico
- Pennsylvania PennDOT

F - Lacks control cities in a lot of places
- OTA ("Thru Traffic")

I would put Texas and Louisiana in A or B personally. They’re pretty solid on interstates other than a couple slip ups (Gainesville on I-35 for Texas, Bay St. Louis on I-10 for Louisiana, among others).
I don't love Denton or Van Horn as control cities.

Van Horn shows up on a few signs, but isn't a true control city.  I don't like it either.

Denton makes sense.  It a large enough city with two universities and the junction of the I-35 split. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: bassoon1986 on August 06, 2022, 02:58:23 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on August 06, 2022, 12:03:34 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 04, 2022, 10:36:36 AM
Sort of surprised we got through 8 pages of the thread without a tier list, so here is one with the states I know of first

A+ - Consistent larger cities as controls on both long-distance interstates and US/SR freeways/expressways
- Michigan
- Washington

A - Consistent control cities for larger cities or junction points on long-distance interstates, but fails on the US/SR freeways/expressways
- Indiana InDOT
- Kentucky
- Ohio ODOT
- PTC

B - Mostly posts larger cities on long-distance interstates, with a bit of inconsistency here and there
- Missouri

C - Same as B, but also sneak in some non-city control cities in locations that doesn't make sense
- California ("other Desert Cities)
- Illinois ("Iowa" on I-80. "Indiana" and "Wisconsin" on I-90/94 makes sense though)
- ITR ("Ohio" when most of the ITR isn't even part of the fastest route from Chicago to Cincinnati or Columbus)
- ISTHA (directional suburbs)
- Massachusetts ("NH/Maine")
- New Hampshire ("All Maine Points")

D - Posts too many small towns that your average driver never heard of on interstates, doesn't post out of state control cities unless absolutely necessary
- New Mexico
- Pennsylvania PennDOT

F - Lacks control cities in a lot of places
- OTA ("Thru Traffic")

I would put Texas and Louisiana in A or B personally. They're pretty solid on interstates other than a couple slip ups (Gainesville on I-35 for Texas, Bay St. Louis on I-10 for Louisiana, among others).
Agreed. Louisiana may get a B for Bay St Louis. Other than that it's fine. Hammond and Slidell are just large enough to be shown at important junctions.

Where is Gainesville Tx ever listed? On a BGS I've only ever seen Denton and OKC


iPhone
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 06, 2022, 06:29:04 PM
Quote from: bassoon1986 on August 06, 2022, 02:58:23 PM
Where is Gainesville Tx ever listed? On a BGS I've only ever seen Denton and OKC

Ramp signage north of Denton uses it, with no mention of OKC.

Between Gainesville and the state line, they use, I shit you not, Ardmore (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6813362,-97.1543565,3a,41.7y,148.42h,79.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1se8-ToDVZ37G0XClJJZ6Oxg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on August 06, 2022, 08:15:36 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2022, 06:29:04 PM
Quote from: bassoon1986 on August 06, 2022, 02:58:23 PM
Where is Gainesville Tx ever listed? On a BGS I've only ever seen Denton and OKC

Ramp signage north of Denton uses it, with no mention of OKC.

Between Gainesville and the state line, they use, I shit you not, Ardmore (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6813362,-97.1543565,3a,41.7y,148.42h,79.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1se8-ToDVZ37G0XClJJZ6Oxg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).

But before all that, you have this (https://goo.gl/maps/9yLJprnuDWdzetN3A).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 06, 2022, 11:17:15 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 06, 2022, 08:15:36 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2022, 06:29:04 PM
Quote from: bassoon1986 on August 06, 2022, 02:58:23 PM
Where is Gainesville Tx ever listed? On a BGS I've only ever seen Denton and OKC

Ramp signage north of Denton uses it, with no mention of OKC.

Between Gainesville and the state line, they use, I shit you not, Ardmore (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6813362,-97.1543565,3a,41.7y,148.42h,79.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1se8-ToDVZ37G0XClJJZ6Oxg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).

But before all that, you have this (https://goo.gl/maps/9yLJprnuDWdzetN3A).

That isn't much help if I get off the interstate, get gas, and am trying to find my way back to I-35, though.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 07, 2022, 01:46:30 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2022, 11:17:15 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 06, 2022, 08:15:36 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2022, 06:29:04 PM
Quote from: bassoon1986 on August 06, 2022, 02:58:23 PM
Where is Gainesville Tx ever listed? On a BGS I've only ever seen Denton and OKC

Ramp signage north of Denton uses it, with no mention of OKC.

Between Gainesville and the state line, they use, I shit you not, Ardmore (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6813362,-97.1543565,3a,41.7y,148.42h,79.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1se8-ToDVZ37G0XClJJZ6Oxg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).

But before all that, you have this (https://goo.gl/maps/9yLJprnuDWdzetN3A).

That isn't much help if I get off the interstate, get gas, and am trying to find my way back to I-35, though.
What do you mean? What does the control city have to do with knowing that you have to get back on I-35 north?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 07, 2022, 02:28:49 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 07, 2022, 01:46:30 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2022, 11:17:15 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 06, 2022, 08:15:36 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2022, 06:29:04 PM
Quote from: bassoon1986 on August 06, 2022, 02:58:23 PM
Where is Gainesville Tx ever listed? On a BGS I've only ever seen Denton and OKC

Ramp signage north of Denton uses it, with no mention of OKC.

Between Gainesville and the state line, they use, I shit you not, Ardmore (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6813362,-97.1543565,3a,41.7y,148.42h,79.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1se8-ToDVZ37G0XClJJZ6Oxg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).

But before all that, you have this (https://goo.gl/maps/9yLJprnuDWdzetN3A).

That isn't much help if I get off the interstate, get gas, and am trying to find my way back to I-35, though.
What do you mean? What does the control city have to do with knowing that you have to get back on I-35 north?

Why do you suppose they post control cities at interchanges?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on August 07, 2022, 12:40:54 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 07, 2022, 01:46:30 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2022, 11:17:15 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 06, 2022, 08:15:36 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2022, 06:29:04 PM
Quote from: bassoon1986 on August 06, 2022, 02:58:23 PM
Where is Gainesville Tx ever listed? On a BGS I've only ever seen Denton and OKC

Ramp signage north of Denton uses it, with no mention of OKC.

Between Gainesville and the state line, they use, I shit you not, Ardmore (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6813362,-97.1543565,3a,41.7y,148.42h,79.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1se8-ToDVZ37G0XClJJZ6Oxg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).

But before all that, you have this (https://goo.gl/maps/9yLJprnuDWdzetN3A).

That isn't much help if I get off the interstate, get gas, and am trying to find my way back to I-35, though.
What do you mean? What does the control city have to do with knowing that you have to get back on I-35 north?
What do you think control cities are there for?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: bing101 on August 13, 2022, 12:30:28 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:56:56 AM
Pennslyvania is pretty bad with its obscure towns on I-80. For best, I like Arizona's control cities (although Yuma could be used).
Pennsylvania how much of this is that they put small towns as control cities on the grounds of gas and lodging reasons. I know interstates are supposed to have large cities as control cities on a 2di.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kirbykart on August 13, 2022, 08:01:18 AM
Quote from: bing101 on August 13, 2022, 12:30:28 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:56:56 AM
Pennslyvania is pretty bad with its obscure towns on I-80. For best, I like Arizona's control cities (although Yuma could be used).
Yeah, wow is this bad. Nobody is going to Sharon, PennDOT. Or the worst offender, Delaware Water Gap. It's weird because they do OK with control cities on other interstates, just not I-80.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MATraveler128 on August 13, 2022, 08:17:42 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on August 13, 2022, 08:01:18 AM
Quote from: bing101 on August 13, 2022, 12:30:28 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:56:56 AM
Pennslyvania is pretty bad with its obscure towns on I-80. For best, I like Arizona's control cities (although Yuma could be used).
Yeah, wow is this bad. Nobody is going to Sharon, PennDOT. Or the worst offender, Delaware Water Gap. It's weird because they do OK with control cities on other interstates, just not I-80.

I-81 in Pennsylvania uses Hazleton as far south as Harrisburg instead of Scranton or even Wilkes-Barre. I get that Hazleton is a major Interstate junction (I-80), but I figure more people are looking for I-84 to bypass metro New York.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on August 13, 2022, 09:34:50 AM
Quote from: bing101 on August 13, 2022, 12:30:28 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:56:56 AM
Pennslyvania is pretty bad with its obscure towns on I-80. For best, I like Arizona's control cities (although Yuma could be used).
Pennsylvania how much of this is that they put small towns as control cities on the grounds of gas and lodging reasons. I know interstates are supposed to have large cities as control cities on a 2di.

I do wonder how influential the local business lobby is in some of these regions, PA included, in dictating local control cities instead of regional ones (i.e. Sharon, Clarion, Del. Water Gap) in order to increase commerce in their towns.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on August 13, 2022, 09:41:12 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on August 13, 2022, 08:01:18 AM
Quote from: bing101 on August 13, 2022, 12:30:28 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:56:56 AM
Pennslyvania is pretty bad with its obscure towns on I-80. For best, I like Arizona's control cities (although Yuma could be used).
Yeah, wow is this bad. Nobody is going to Sharon, PennDOT. Or the worst offender, Delaware Water Gap. It's weird because they do OK with control cities on other interstates, just not I-80.

I remember reading a while back that in Maine, many local officials in the central part of the state were adamant that the DOT not sign Bar Harbor/Mount Desert Island on I-95 until Bangor, even though leaving 95 at  US 1 from Brunswick was more a more scenic drive up the Mid-Coast. In PA's case, I wouldn't be surprised if local political/business leaders along I-80 had similar influence.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: bing101 on August 13, 2022, 12:00:19 PM

Isn't smaller towns limited by the City limits sign along the way on a 2di. I know on 3di's suburban and medium size cities could be used as control cities given the significance to commuters in a certain area. However 2di's are supposed to mainly focus on large cities and state capitals for truck traffic reasons.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on August 13, 2022, 12:15:51 PM
Since this isn't just limited to Interstate's I would like to nominate Clare, MI on US-127, it seems like an ok control city on US-10 because US-10 shifts there and runs concurrently with US-127 for a few miles. I think US-127's control cities should be Hudson, Jackson, Lansing, Mount Pleasant, Mackinac Bridge. I'd just replace Clare with Mt. Pleasant than Mackinac Bridge north of Mount Pleasant which is the control city at that point therefore Clare stops being the control city before you even get to Clare which makes it an even worse control city IMO. The Mackinac Bridge is an excellent control city for northern Michigan btw.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kirbykart on August 14, 2022, 03:56:42 PM
I think Illinois is one of the worst states for control cities, and I know this isn't exactly a unique opinion. Besides the obvious "Iowa", "Suburbs", and "East St. Louis", there are also some pretty inexplicable choices, like "Jacksonville" on I-72^, and no mention of Bloomington-Normal on I-55, even though it's a decent-sized city and the junction of 3 interstates.
^To be fair, there's not a lot to work with here, but I'm pretty sure more people have heard of Hannibal, MO than Jacksonville, IL.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: amroad17 on August 14, 2022, 11:50:24 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on August 14, 2022, 03:56:42 PM
I think Illinois is one of the worst states for control cities, and I know this isn't exactly a unique opinion. Besides the obvious "Iowa", "Suburbs", and "East St. Louis", there are also some pretty inexplicable choices, like "Jacksonville" on I-72^, and no mention of Bloomington-Normal on I-55, even though it's a decent-sized city and the junction of 3 interstates.
^To be fair, there's not a lot to work with here, but I'm pretty sure more people have heard of Hannibal, MO than Jacksonville, IL.
Jacksonville (IL) is probably a holdover, and a carbon copy, from when I-72 west of I-55 and Springfield was just the US 36 freeway.

As far as Illinois, I am not a fan of "state" control points.  I would prefer Des Moines, Milwaukee, Toledo, and Detroit over Iowa, Indiana, and Wisconsin.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: amroad17 on August 15, 2022, 12:29:39 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on August 13, 2022, 08:17:42 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on August 13, 2022, 08:01:18 AM
Quote from: bing101 on August 13, 2022, 12:30:28 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:56:56 AM
Pennslyvania is pretty bad with its obscure towns on I-80. For best, I like Arizona's control cities (although Yuma could be used).
Yeah, wow is this bad. Nobody is going to Sharon, PennDOT. Or the worst offender, Delaware Water Gap. It's weird because they do OK with control cities on other interstates, just not I-80.

I-81 in Pennsylvania uses Hazleton as far south as Harrisburg instead of Scranton or even Wilkes-Barre. I get that Hazleton is a major Interstate junction (I-80), but I figure more people are looking for I-84 to bypass metro New York.
Unfortunately, there are no large cities/towns along I-80 in Pennsylvania.  The larger ones are Sharon (pop. 13,000), Bloomsburg (pop. 14,000) and Hazleton (pop. 30,000), which is actually about 7.5 miles south of the I-80/PA 309 interchange (262).  Williamsport (pop. 27,000) is also used, however, the city is almost 17 miles north of I-80 using US 15.  The control cities used are usually around 5,000-10,000 in population.

I have posted before that Pennsylvania should use Sharon, DuBois, Williamsport, Hazleton, and Stroudsburg as the main control points.  No Mercer, Clarion, Clearfield, Bellefonte, Milton, or Bloomsburg.  These last six mentioned are on mileage signs along I-80 currently, which should be good enough.

Yes, I-81 NB is signed for Hazleton from Harrisburg.  I believe that PennDOT should use two control cities on the NB overhead signs for both I-81 (Hazleton, Scranton) and I-78 (Allentown, New York City).  At least there is a mileage sign posted for Wilkes-Barre and Scranton just north of the I-81/I-78 interchange. https://goo.gl/maps/61kjfKG3N1rgwM8j6   
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on August 15, 2022, 05:03:30 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on August 15, 2022, 12:29:39 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on August 13, 2022, 08:17:42 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on August 13, 2022, 08:01:18 AM
Quote from: bing101 on August 13, 2022, 12:30:28 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:56:56 AM
Pennslyvania is pretty bad with its obscure towns on I-80. For best, I like Arizona's control cities (although Yuma could be used).
Yeah, wow is this bad. Nobody is going to Sharon, PennDOT. Or the worst offender, Delaware Water Gap. It's weird because they do OK with control cities on other interstates, just not I-80.

I-81 in Pennsylvania uses Hazleton as far south as Harrisburg instead of Scranton or even Wilkes-Barre. I get that Hazleton is a major Interstate junction (I-80), but I figure more people are looking for I-84 to bypass metro New York.
Unfortunately, there are no large cities/towns along I-80 in Pennsylvania.  The larger ones are Sharon (pop. 13,000), Bloomsburg (pop. 14,000) and Hazleton (pop. 30,000), which is actually about 7.5 miles south of the I-80/PA 309 interchange (262).  Williamsport (pop. 27,000) is also used, however, the city is almost 17 miles north of I-80 using US 15.  The control cities used are usually around 5,000-10,000 in population.

I have posted before that Pennsylvania should use Sharon, DuBois, Williamsport, Hazleton, and Stroudsburg as the main control points.  No Mercer, Clarion, Clearfield, Bellefonte, Milton, or Bloomsburg.  These last six mentioned are on mileage signs along I-80 currently, which should be good enough.

Yes, I-81 NB is signed for Hazleton from Harrisburg.  I believe that PennDOT should use two control cities on the NB overhead signs for both I-81 (Hazleton, Scranton) and I-78 (Allentown, New York City).  At least there is a mileage sign posted for Wilkes-Barre and Scranton just north of the I-81/I-78 interchange. https://goo.gl/maps/61kjfKG3N1rgwM8j6
Skip DuBois. It has only 7 thousand people with a declining population. At least Hazelton has over 20 thousand people. Would prefer just New York and Cleveland, but the others are fine.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on August 15, 2022, 08:56:08 PM
The worst of them all is Illinois. I don't mind using the states in the Chicago area like Wisconsin and Indiana because you generally know what parts of each state you're going to come into but I would use Milwaukee instead of Wisconsin, it's the largest city in Wisconsin and almost anybody is going to know where Milwaukee is. I would use both Milwaukee and Rockford on the Kennedy where 90/94 run concurrently then use both at the Kennedy/Edens split for each respective highway. But I think the worst one of them all is Interstate 57 on I-24. I mean you could have used Marion, Mount Vernon or St Louis. The control cities seem to be out of whack along the whole route west of Nashville.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on August 15, 2022, 08:59:59 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 15, 2022, 08:56:08 PM
The worst of them all is Illinois. I don't mind using the states in the Chicago area like Wisconsin and Indiana because you generally know what parts of each state you're going to come into but I would use Milwaukee instead of Wisconsin, it's the largest city in Wisconsin and almost anybody is going to know where Milwaukee is. I would use both Milwaukee and Rockford on the Kennedy where 90/94 run concurrently then use both at the Kennedy/Edens split for each respective highway. But I think the worst one of them all is Interstate 57 on I-24. I mean you could have used Marion, Mount Vernon or St Louis. The control cities seem to be out of whack along the whole route west of Nashville.

I thought you said that the control city has to be on the route.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on August 15, 2022, 09:35:50 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 15, 2022, 08:59:59 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 15, 2022, 08:56:08 PM
The worst of them all is Illinois. I don't mind using the states in the Chicago area like Wisconsin and Indiana because you generally know what parts of each state you're going to come into but I would use Milwaukee instead of Wisconsin, it's the largest city in Wisconsin and almost anybody is going to know where Milwaukee is. I would use both Milwaukee and Rockford on the Kennedy where 90/94 run concurrently then use both at the Kennedy/Edens split for each respective highway. But I think the worst one of them all is Interstate 57 on I-24. I mean you could have used Marion, Mount Vernon or St Louis. The control cities seem to be out of whack along the whole route west of Nashville.

I thought you said that the control city has to be on the route.
A control city should be on the route but what control city isn't that I mentioned?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on August 15, 2022, 09:52:06 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 15, 2022, 08:56:08 PM
The worst of them all is Illinois. I don't mind using the states in the Chicago area like Wisconsin and Indiana because you generally know what parts of each state you're going to come into but I would use Milwaukee instead of Wisconsin, it's the largest city in Wisconsin and almost anybody is going to know where Milwaukee is. I would use both Milwaukee and Rockford on the Kennedy where 90/94 run concurrently then use both at the Kennedy/Edens split for each respective highway. But I think the worst one of them all is Interstate 57 on I-24. I mean you could have used Marion, Mount Vernon or St Louis. The control cities seem to be out of whack along the whole route west of Nashville.

If Crash_It was in charge:

I-90 West: Rockford/Albert Lea
I-94 West: St. Paul/Fargo

:)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: amroad17 on August 15, 2022, 10:38:56 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 15, 2022, 05:03:30 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on August 15, 2022, 12:29:39 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on August 13, 2022, 08:17:42 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on August 13, 2022, 08:01:18 AM
Quote from: bing101 on August 13, 2022, 12:30:28 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 10:56:56 AM
Pennslyvania is pretty bad with its obscure towns on I-80. For best, I like Arizona's control cities (although Yuma could be used).
Yeah, wow is this bad. Nobody is going to Sharon, PennDOT. Or the worst offender, Delaware Water Gap. It's weird because they do OK with control cities on other interstates, just not I-80.

I-81 in Pennsylvania uses Hazleton as far south as Harrisburg instead of Scranton or even Wilkes-Barre. I get that Hazleton is a major Interstate junction (I-80), but I figure more people are looking for I-84 to bypass metro New York.
Unfortunately, there are no large cities/towns along I-80 in Pennsylvania.  The larger ones are Sharon (pop. 13,000), Bloomsburg (pop. 14,000) and Hazleton (pop. 30,000), which is actually about 7.5 miles south of the I-80/PA 309 interchange (262).  Williamsport (pop. 27,000) is also used, however, the city is almost 17 miles north of I-80 using US 15.  The control cities used are usually around 5,000-10,000 in population.

I have posted before that Pennsylvania should use Sharon, DuBois, Williamsport, Hazleton, and Stroudsburg as the main control points.  No Mercer, Clarion, Clearfield, Bellefonte, Milton, or Bloomsburg.  These last six mentioned are on mileage signs along I-80 currently, which should be good enough.

Yes, I-81 NB is signed for Hazleton from Harrisburg.  I believe that PennDOT should use two control cities on the NB overhead signs for both I-81 (Hazleton, Scranton) and I-78 (Allentown, New York City).  At least there is a mileage sign posted for Wilkes-Barre and Scranton just north of the I-81/I-78 interchange. https://goo.gl/maps/61kjfKG3N1rgwM8j6
Skip DuBois. It has only 7 thousand people with a declining population. At least Hazelton has over 20 thousand people. Would prefer just New York and Cleveland, but the others are fine.
I mentioned DuBois because this is where US 219 crosses I-80.  This also would be the area in which the Continental One Expressway would be built, if it ever came to fruition.  Besides, you would need a control point in between the 210 mile distance between Sharon and Williamsport.  DuBois is nearly halfway between the two.

Remember, control cities are not always based on population (Limon, CO; Wytheville, VA; Carlisle, PA; Corning, NY; Lewisburg, WV).  Control points are designed as waypoints along a certain routing.  Some routes may not reach those points (I-57, Memphis; I-24, St. Louis), however, they are routes one would need to take to reach that certain city from their area.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: 7/8 on August 15, 2022, 10:52:15 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 15, 2022, 09:35:50 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 15, 2022, 08:59:59 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 15, 2022, 08:56:08 PM
The worst of them all is Illinois. I don't mind using the states in the Chicago area like Wisconsin and Indiana because you generally know what parts of each state you're going to come into but I would use Milwaukee instead of Wisconsin, it's the largest city in Wisconsin and almost anybody is going to know where Milwaukee is. I would use both Milwaukee and Rockford on the Kennedy where 90/94 run concurrently then use both at the Kennedy/Edens split for each respective highway. But I think the worst one of them all is Interstate 57 on I-24. I mean you could have used Marion, Mount Vernon or St Louis. The control cities seem to be out of whack along the whole route west of Nashville.

I thought you said that the control city has to be on the route.
A control city should be on the route but what control city isn't that I mentioned?

St. Louis isn't on I-57. Still, I respectfully disagree that the highway has to reach the control city in cases where most traffic leaves the highway for that city. It's good that St. Louis is signed on I-24 at I-57 since lots of traffic is heading there. https://maps.app.goo.gl/X7wrrr4hQu9Laz6o9 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/X7wrrr4hQu9Laz6o9)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on August 16, 2022, 08:45:09 AM
Quote from: 7/8 on August 15, 2022, 10:52:15 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 15, 2022, 09:35:50 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 15, 2022, 08:59:59 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 15, 2022, 08:56:08 PM
The worst of them all is Illinois. I don't mind using the states in the Chicago area like Wisconsin and Indiana because you generally know what parts of each state you're going to come into but I would use Milwaukee instead of Wisconsin, it's the largest city in Wisconsin and almost anybody is going to know where Milwaukee is. I would use both Milwaukee and Rockford on the Kennedy where 90/94 run concurrently then use both at the Kennedy/Edens split for each respective highway. But I think the worst one of them all is Interstate 57 on I-24. I mean you could have used Marion, Mount Vernon or St Louis. The control cities seem to be out of whack along the whole route west of Nashville.

I thought you said that the control city has to be on the route.
A control city should be on the route but what control city isn't that I mentioned?

St. Louis isn't on I-57. Still, I respectfully disagree that the highway has to reach the control city in cases where most traffic leaves the highway for that city. It's good that St. Louis is signed on I-24 at I-57 since lots of traffic is heading there. https://maps.app.goo.gl/X7wrrr4hQu9Laz6o9 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/X7wrrr4hQu9Laz6o9)
I-24 ends and is heading toward St. Louis. The other examples of like using Raliegh on I-95 or Albany, GA on I-75 don't make any sense as both 75 and 95 are through routes that don't end there. US-127 in Michigan doesn't go to the Mackinac Bridge but is the control city from Mount Pleasant going north pretty much the same difference although there are two Interstates that you would use to get to St. Louis. I'd probably just use Marion. Kentucky and/or Tennessee shouldn't be using St. Louis, I can't remember which one does it.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on August 16, 2022, 08:48:22 AM
It's basically just a shift but with using different numbered highways. I-24 is actually heading toward St. Louis but you have to use I-57 and I-64 to get the rest of the way there so therefore I don't see a problem with it being a control city. At the end it tells you to take Exit 44B which will help you. At least a sign is there telling you which way you have to go to continue toward St. Louis.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on August 16, 2022, 01:08:07 PM
Similarly, Connecticut signs The control city for I-84 East from Hartford to the state line as Boston, despite the fact that the roadway ends 50+ miles from the city.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MATraveler128 on August 16, 2022, 01:20:29 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on August 16, 2022, 01:08:07 PM
Similarly, Connecticut signs The control city for I-84 East off Hartford as Boston, despite the fact that the roadway ends 50+ miles from the city.

I'd argue that the use of Boston is actually appropriate in this case. Boston is a major city and is where most people are probably headed to. It wouldn't make much sense to use Sturbridge or Worcester.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on August 26, 2022, 06:52:24 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on August 16, 2022, 01:20:29 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on August 16, 2022, 01:08:07 PM
Similarly, Connecticut signs The control city for I-84 East off Hartford as Boston, despite the fact that the roadway ends 50+ miles from the city.

I'd argue that the use of Boston is actually appropriate in this case. Boston is a major city and is where most people are probably headed to. It wouldn't make much sense to use Sturbridge or Worcester.
Worcester is a good enough control for 84 if MDOT went that way. But Boston was the correct choice.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on September 10, 2022, 01:28:54 PM
Quote
D - Posts too many small towns that your average driver never heard of on interstates, doesn't post out of state control cities unless absolutely necessary
- New Mexico
- Pennsylvania PennDOT


Oregon and Colorado are other states I think need some help, though to a lesser extent than New Mexico and Pennsylvania.

In Colorado, most of the control cities out of Denver are good choices.  Within Denver, only I-70 and I-76 need help; their respective eastbound control cities ought to be changed to Topeka/Kansas City and Omaha.  I-25 south from Pueblo to the NM state line also needs help.  Pueblo is fine from Colorado Springs though I think it would be better off dual signing Pueblo and Albuquerque.  But south from Pueblo, I'd sign Albuquerque skipping over Trinidad and Raton.

In Oregon, only I-84 is the one signing a bunch of small towns as its control cites.  Boise is the next largest city on I-84 east from Portland; but it doesn't become the control city until Ontario, the last town on I-84 before crossing into Idaho.  Most of the control cities on I-5 are fine, especially with Portland being the northbound control city all the way from Ashland.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on September 10, 2022, 02:18:29 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on September 10, 2022, 01:28:54 PM
Quote
D - Posts too many small towns that your average driver never heard of on interstates, doesn't post out of state control cities unless absolutely necessary
- New Mexico
- Pennsylvania PennDOT


Oregon and Colorado are other states I think need some help, though to a lesser extent than New Mexico and Pennsylvania.

In Colorado, most of the control cities out of Denver are good choices.  Within Denver, only I-70 and I-76 need help; their respective eastbound control cities ought to be changed to Topeka/Kansas City and Omaha.  I-25 south from Pueblo to the NM state line also needs help.  Pueblo is fine from Colorado Springs though I think it would be better off dual signing Pueblo and Albuquerque.  But south from Pueblo, I'd sign Albuquerque skipping over Trinidad and Raton.

In Oregon, only I-84 is the one signing a bunch of small towns as its control cites.  Boise is the next largest city on I-84 east from Portland; but it doesn't become the control city until Ontario, the last town on I-84 before crossing into Idaho.  Most of the control cities on I-5 are fine, especially with Portland being the northbound control city all the way from Ashland.
Colorado's biggest issue is Limon. Salina/Kansas City is what I would sign it from Denver and then Topeka/Kansas City from Salina. As for I-76, I don't have as big an issue with Ft Morgan but a combination of North Platte, Lincoln and Omaha should be used on the mileage signs in Colorado.

I disagree with I-5 South of Eugene. Roseburg? Really? At best, that's a secondary city. Same with Grants Pass but I get that one because of the junction with US 199. Medford is better. South of Medford, Redding/Sacramento.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on September 10, 2022, 03:41:45 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 26, 2022, 06:52:24 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on August 16, 2022, 01:20:29 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on August 16, 2022, 01:08:07 PM
Similarly, Connecticut signs The control city for I-84 East off Hartford as Boston, despite the fact that the roadway ends 50+ miles from the city.

I'd argue that the use of Boston is actually appropriate in this case. Boston is a major city and is where most people are probably headed to. It wouldn't make much sense to use Sturbridge or Worcester.
Worcester is a good enough control for 84 if MDOT went that way. But Boston was the correct choice.
I don't like Worcester as you have to not only get on I-90 east, you also have to get on I-290 afterwards to actually get to Worcester.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on September 10, 2022, 04:26:56 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 10, 2022, 03:41:45 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on August 26, 2022, 06:52:24 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on August 16, 2022, 01:20:29 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on August 16, 2022, 01:08:07 PM
Similarly, Connecticut signs The control city for I-84 East off Hartford as Boston, despite the fact that the roadway ends 50+ miles from the city.

I'd argue that the use of Boston is actually appropriate in this case. Boston is a major city and is where most people are probably headed to. It wouldn't make much sense to use Sturbridge or Worcester.
Worcester is a good enough control for 84 if MDOT went that way. But Boston was the correct choice.
I don't like Worcester as you have to not only get on I-90 east, you also have to get on I-290 afterwards to actually get to Worcester.
True. But it's not like Worcester is not a significant city in Massachusetts.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on September 11, 2022, 07:41:52 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 11, 2022, 02:07:54 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2022, 02:04:14 PM
What's the problem with Missouri?
Tulsa in STL for I-44, then disappearing mostly in-state? That is about the most egregious, unless using "Illinois"  as a Control in Downtown STL for the approaches to the PSB and Stan Span bothers you

Here's my thinking about how Missouri signs control cities.  Within its major cities, they sign primary control cities.  But outside cities, they will most often sign secondary controls instead.  On I-70 west, Kansas City is the primary control city from St. Louis.  But at smaller interchanges, Columbia (a secondary control) is signed instead.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on September 11, 2022, 07:46:39 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on September 11, 2022, 07:41:52 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 11, 2022, 02:07:54 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 11, 2022, 02:04:14 PM
What's the problem with Missouri?
Tulsa in STL for I-44, then disappearing mostly in-state? That is about the most egregious, unless using “Illinois” as a Control in Downtown STL for the approaches to the PSB and Stan Span bothers you

Here's my thinking about how Missouri signs control cities.  Within its major cities, they sign primary control cities.  But outside cities, they will most often sign secondary controls instead.  On I-70 west, Kansas City is the primary control city from St. Louis.  But at smaller interchanges, Columbia (a secondary control) is signed instead.
Too many (https://goo.gl/maps/GLHCzQfP3jRkCnBJ9) newer signs in (https://goo.gl/maps/qyrCQz5mQJEcDWKo9) St Charles County (https://goo.gl/maps/weJMPDxPBwxnu3RE9) use Wentzville, unfortunately (https://goo.gl/maps/MDrvzUEMXbfX39sj6).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on September 11, 2022, 07:53:01 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on September 10, 2022, 02:18:29 PM

I disagree with I-5 South of Eugene. Roseburg? Really? At best, that's a secondary city. Same with Grants Pass but I get that one because of the junction with US 199. Medford is better. South of Medford, Redding/Sacramento.

I just found out that Medford is the control city on I-5 north from Ashland; and from Medford, Portland becomes the control city.  But within California, Portland is the control city from Redding on I-5 north.  But yes, I agree that Medford should the southbound control city from Eugene since it's the next largest city.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: US 89 on September 11, 2022, 11:40:47 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on September 11, 2022, 07:53:01 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on September 10, 2022, 02:18:29 PM

I disagree with I-5 South of Eugene. Roseburg? Really? At best, that's a secondary city. Same with Grants Pass but I get that one because of the junction with US 199. Medford is better. South of Medford, Redding/Sacramento.

I just found out that Medford is the control city on I-5 north from Ashland; and from Medford, Portland becomes the control city.  But within California, Portland is the control city from Redding on I-5 north.  But yes, I agree that Medford should the southbound control city from Eugene since it's the next largest city.

Nobody has heard of Medford. Use Sacramento. </s>
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on September 12, 2022, 12:21:00 AM
Quote from: US 89 on September 11, 2022, 11:40:47 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on September 11, 2022, 07:53:01 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on September 10, 2022, 02:18:29 PM

I disagree with I-5 South of Eugene. Roseburg? Really? At best, that's a secondary city. Same with Grants Pass but I get that one because of the junction with US 199. Medford is better. South of Medford, Redding/Sacramento.

I just found out that Medford is the control city on I-5 north from Ashland; and from Medford, Portland becomes the control city.  But within California, Portland is the control city from Redding on I-5 north.  But yes, I agree that Medford should the southbound control city from Eugene since it's the next largest city.

Nobody has heard of Medford. Use Sacramento. </s>
Sacramento is a bit far but I wouldn't be totally against it.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on September 12, 2022, 07:26:25 AM
I would say Rhode Island's control city postings merit a B+. Major cities are posted, with Providence being the most obvious example, and Boston/Fall River/Cape Cod also appropriately posted (although "Cape Cod, MA"  seems a bit much). My only quibble is the use of "New York"  as a control city on 95 south. I get that there is a lot of interstate traffic (and many more folks from NY/NJ than in years past now have summer homes in RI). And everyone knows New York. But New London or New Haven (or even Westerly, used on some on-ramps) are closer.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Road Hog on September 14, 2022, 01:12:32 AM
I was in Arkansas a couple of weeks ago and I saw ARDOT added St. Louis as a control city for the I-440 junction on I-30. One of these days that sign will say Chicago and I'm all for it.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: FredAkbar on September 14, 2022, 02:24:11 AM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on September 10, 2022, 01:28:54 PM
Quote
D - Posts too many small towns that your average driver never heard of on interstates, doesn't post out of state control cities unless absolutely necessary
- New Mexico
- Pennsylvania PennDOT


Oregon and Colorado are other states I think need some help, though to a lesser extent than New Mexico and Pennsylvania.

In Colorado, most of the control cities out of Denver are good choices.  Within Denver, only I-70 and I-76 need help; their respective eastbound control cities ought to be changed to Topeka/Kansas City and Omaha.  I-25 south from Pueblo to the NM state line also needs help.  Pueblo is fine from Colorado Springs though I think it would be better off dual signing Pueblo and Albuquerque.  But south from Pueblo, I'd sign Albuquerque skipping over Trinidad and Raton.

In Oregon, only I-84 is the one signing a bunch of small towns as its control cites.  Boise is the next largest city on I-84 east from Portland; but it doesn't become the control city until Ontario, the last town on I-84 before crossing into Idaho.  Most of the control cities on I-5 are fine, especially with Portland being the northbound control city all the way from Ashland.

Are things like this due to a preference for using control cities within that state, rather than those of another state? I've seen it mentioned that CA has a strong preference for this so perhaps other states do as well. Though that only explains Trinidad and not Raton in the CO example.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on September 14, 2022, 08:01:55 AM
Many states outside New Jersey don’t like to pick New Jersey cities except for I-95 out of Philly until the PA Turnpike connection which now uses New York. Trenton used to be used from I-76 north on I-95, but now I-295 still uses Trenton for only two interchanges and Princeton for the other three.

Still overall I-80 and I-78 would rather use in state places in PA before skipping right to New York. Then you have New York using the entire state of New Jersey instead of what that state has. If it were not for the feds forcing NYSDOT to remove bridges from guides as controls, we would not been getting Newark, NJ on the Cross Bronx signs.  It would be Geo Washington Br. still on I-95 or New Jersey.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MATraveler128 on September 14, 2022, 08:19:16 AM
The short US 202 freeway in New Jersey used to only read either "Penna"  or "Pennsylvania"  as its control city. Now with a recent sign replacement project, it says "New Hope Pennsylvania" . I've never liked the use of "Del Water Gap"  on I-80. Also, I'm not sure why the AC Expressway doesn't use "Philadelphia"  as a control point at the GSP as that is where most Jersey Shore tourists are heading to. New Jersey just has bad control cities overall.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on September 14, 2022, 08:34:20 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on September 14, 2022, 08:19:16 AM
The short US 202 freeway in New Jersey used to only read either "Penna"  or "Pennsylvania"  as its control city. Now with a recent sign replacement project, it says "New Hope Pennsylvania" . I've never liked the use of "Del Water Gap"  on I-80. Also, I'm not sure why the AC Expressway doesn't use "Philadelphia"  as a control point at the GSP as that is where most Jersey Shore tourists are heading to. New Jersey just has bad control cities overall.


Most ramp signs for ACE use Philly though.  Even their mileage signs use Philadelphia as well.

The Garden State Parkway though has a lot to be desired even at NJ 72. It used Camden for ages, and now they changed out for Pemberton at Exit 63A.  Considering most Route 72 traffic continues to Route 70 west at the end, Camden is fine as it was. Not many, I would think, are not continuing on the county road beyond the Circle to Pemberton.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on September 14, 2022, 03:31:26 PM
Quote from: US 89 on September 11, 2022, 11:40:47 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on September 11, 2022, 07:53:01 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on September 10, 2022, 02:18:29 PM

I disagree with I-5 South of Eugene. Roseburg? Really? At best, that's a secondary city. Same with Grants Pass but I get that one because of the junction with US 199. Medford is better. South of Medford, Redding/Sacramento.

I just found out that Medford is the control city on I-5 north from Ashland; and from Medford, Portland becomes the control city.  But within California, Portland is the control city from Redding on I-5 north.  But yes, I agree that Medford should the southbound control city from Eugene since it's the next largest city.

Nobody has heard of Medford. Use Sacramento. </s>

Maybe people that live in Medford have heard of it?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on September 14, 2022, 03:33:13 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 14, 2022, 08:01:55 AM
Many states outside New Jersey don't like to pick New Jersey cities except for I-95 out of Philly until the PA Turnpike connection which now uses New York. Trenton used to be used from I-76 north on I-95, but now I-295 still uses Trenton for only two interchanges and Princeton for the other three.

Still overall I-80 and I-78 would rather use in state places in PA before skipping right to New York. Then you have New York using the entire state of New Jersey instead of what that state has. If it were not for the feds forcing NYSDOT to remove bridges from guides as controls, we would not been getting Newark, NJ on the Cross Bronx signs.  It would be Geo Washington Br. still on I-95 or New Jersey.

Did the feds actually force the DOT to change control city signage?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SEWIGuy on September 14, 2022, 03:36:47 PM
Quote from: US 89 on September 11, 2022, 11:40:47 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on September 11, 2022, 07:53:01 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on September 10, 2022, 02:18:29 PM

I disagree with I-5 South of Eugene. Roseburg? Really? At best, that's a secondary city. Same with Grants Pass but I get that one because of the junction with US 199. Medford is better. South of Medford, Redding/Sacramento.

I just found out that Medford is the control city on I-5 north from Ashland; and from Medford, Portland becomes the control city.  But within California, Portland is the control city from Redding on I-5 north.  But yes, I agree that Medford should the southbound control city from Eugene since it's the next largest city.

Nobody has heard of Medford. Use Sacramento. </s>


A lot of people who use I-5 have heard of Medford. 
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hotdogPi on September 14, 2022, 03:42:46 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on September 14, 2022, 03:31:26 PM
Maybe people that live in Medford have heard of it?

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 14, 2022, 03:36:47 PM
A lot of people who use I-5 have heard of Medford. 

Quote from: US 89 on September 11, 2022, 11:40:47 PM
</s>
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on September 14, 2022, 09:50:47 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on September 11, 2022, 07:53:01 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on September 10, 2022, 02:18:29 PM

I disagree with I-5 South of Eugene. Roseburg? Really? At best, that's a secondary city. Same with Grants Pass but I get that one because of the junction with US 199. Medford is better. South of Medford, Redding/Sacramento.

I just found out that Medford is the control city on I-5 north from Ashland; and from Medford, Portland becomes the control city.  But within California, Portland is the control city from Redding on I-5 north.  But yes, I agree that Medford should the southbound control city from Eugene since it's the next largest city.
The reasoning of that is simple. The control cities are chosen by each state. What California signs and what Oregon signs can be two different things. Using Portland in California though is kind of early IMO. I'd go with Medford, Eugene, Salem then Portland. I wouldn't use Ashland at all and use Redding for SB I-5 into California.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on September 14, 2022, 09:59:00 PM
Let's see the feds tell MDOT they have to take down Mackinac Bridge as a control city.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4258518,-83.8906106,3a,25.4y,0.78h,93.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skLh27M9_oknoClnuyrVMow!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: someone17 on September 14, 2022, 10:10:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 14, 2022, 09:59:00 PM
Let's see the feds tell MDOT they have to take down Mackinac Bridge as a control city.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4258518,-83.8906106,3a,25.4y,0.78h,93.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skLh27M9_oknoClnuyrVMow!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

They don't use Sault Ste. Marie?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ran4sh on September 14, 2022, 10:24:55 PM
Quote from: 1 on September 14, 2022, 03:42:46 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on September 14, 2022, 03:31:26 PM
Maybe people that live in Medford have heard of it?

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 14, 2022, 03:36:47 PM
A lot of people who use I-5 have heard of Medford. 

Quote from: US 89 on September 11, 2022, 11:40:47 PM
</s>

I thought /s was mainly a reddit thing, when did people start using it elsewhere?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: GaryV on September 15, 2022, 09:19:11 AM
Quote from: someone17 on September 14, 2022, 10:10:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 14, 2022, 09:59:00 PM
Let's see the feds tell MDOT they have to take down Mackinac Bridge as a control city.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4258518,-83.8906106,3a,25.4y,0.78h,93.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skLh27M9_oknoClnuyrVMow!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

They don't use Sault Ste. Marie?
Not until north of the Bridge.

But southbound from the Soo, they use St Ignace.

I guess none of us trolls down here know what's in the north except for the Bridge.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on September 15, 2022, 09:25:44 AM
Quote from: someone17 on September 14, 2022, 10:10:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 14, 2022, 09:59:00 PM
Let's see the feds tell MDOT they have to take down Mackinac Bridge as a control city.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4258518,-83.8906106,3a,25.4y,0.78h,93.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skLh27M9_oknoClnuyrVMow!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

They don't use Sault Ste. Marie?
North of the bridge they do.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on September 15, 2022, 09:28:28 AM


Quote from: GaryV on September 15, 2022, 09:19:11 AM
Quote from: someone17 on September 14, 2022, 10:10:19 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 14, 2022, 09:59:00 PM
Let's see the feds tell MDOT they have to take down Mackinac Bridge as a control city.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4258518,-83.8906106,3a,25.4y,0.78h,93.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skLh27M9_oknoClnuyrVMow!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

They don't use Sault Ste. Marie?
Not until north of the Bridge.

But southbound from the Soo, they use St Ignace.

I guess none of us trolls down here know what's in the north except for the Bridge.

I've always found that as kind of strange that they use St. Ignace in the U.P. but not Mackinac Bridge until you get to the US-2 exit.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on September 17, 2022, 11:42:19 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on September 14, 2022, 09:50:47 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on September 11, 2022, 07:53:01 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on September 10, 2022, 02:18:29 PM

I disagree with I-5 South of Eugene. Roseburg? Really? At best, that's a secondary city. Same with Grants Pass but I get that one because of the junction with US 199. Medford is better. South of Medford, Redding/Sacramento.

I just found out that Medford is the control city on I-5 north from Ashland; and from Medford, Portland becomes the control city.  But within California, Portland is the control city from Redding on I-5 north.  But yes, I agree that Medford should the southbound control city from Eugene since it's the next largest city.
The reasoning of that is simple. The control cities are chosen by each state. What California signs and what Oregon signs can be two different things. Using Portland in California though is kind of early IMO. I'd go with Medford, Eugene, Salem then Portland. I wouldn't use Ashland at all and use Redding for SB I-5 into California.

I think California uses Portland from Redding, not just because it's bigger than either Medford, Eugene, or Salem; there's also an interstate junction in Portland.  And that could very well be the reason it's the northbound control from Medford, and the smaller cities are only signed going southbound. 

Similarly, on I-25 north from Albuquerque, Denver would be the most logical choice if NM wanted to sign big cities on its interstates (though I wouldn't have a problem dual signing Santa Fe-Denver).  Sure, you'll reach Pueblo and Colorado Springs first; but neither city has an interstate junction (despite C Springs being more than large enough to sign as a primary control city).  Denver has multiple interstate junctions, most notably the junction of I-25 and I-70.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on September 17, 2022, 11:52:28 AM
I don't like strictly using interstate junctions as control cities. That's why we end up with places no one heard of like Statesville, Benton, Mercer, Hazleton, instead of more sensible choices (some of them less than 100 miles away from a much larger and more well-known city)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on September 17, 2022, 07:37:33 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on September 14, 2022, 10:24:55 PM
Quote from: 1 on September 14, 2022, 03:42:46 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on September 14, 2022, 03:31:26 PM
Maybe people that live in Medford have heard of it?

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 14, 2022, 03:36:47 PM
A lot of people who use I-5 have heard of Medford. 

Quote from: US 89 on September 11, 2022, 11:40:47 PM
</s>

I thought /s was mainly a reddit thing, when did people start using it elsewhere?

I've seen it here and there throughout the Internet, mostly because there's no better way to denote sarcasm.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on September 18, 2022, 03:53:34 PM
Quote from: US 89 on September 11, 2022, 11:40:47 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on September 11, 2022, 07:53:01 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on September 10, 2022, 02:18:29 PM

I disagree with I-5 South of Eugene. Roseburg? Really? At best, that's a secondary city. Same with Grants Pass but I get that one because of the junction with US 199. Medford is better. South of Medford, Redding/Sacramento.

I just found out that Medford is the control city on I-5 north from Ashland; and from Medford, Portland becomes the control city.  But within California, Portland is the control city from Redding on I-5 north.  But yes, I agree that Medford should the southbound control city from Eugene since it's the next largest city.

Nobody has heard of Medford. Use Sacramento. </s>
"Nobody"?  I think there may be some people here who have even if they have never been to Oregon. Just sayin.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kirbykart on September 19, 2022, 09:37:53 AM
^I'd say over half of people in the US have heard of Medford, it's the largest city in southern Oregon.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hotdogPi on September 19, 2022, 09:53:25 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on September 19, 2022, 09:37:53 AM
^I'd say over half of people in the US have heard of Medford, it's the largest city in southern Oregon.

I've only heard of it due to this forum and my interest in US politics. I wouldn't be surprised if the one in Massachusetts is better known.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: webny99 on September 19, 2022, 10:39:42 AM
Quote from: 1 on September 19, 2022, 09:53:25 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on September 19, 2022, 09:37:53 AM
^I'd say over half of people in the US have heard of Medford, it's the largest city in southern Oregon.

I've only heard of it due to this forum and my interest in US politics. I wouldn't be surprised if the one in Massachusetts is better known.

I've heard the city name Medford, but I wouldn't have known offhand that it was in southern Oregon.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: thspfc on September 19, 2022, 10:49:26 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on September 19, 2022, 09:37:53 AM
^I'd say over half of people in the US have heard of Medford, it's the largest city in southern Oregon.
I'd say definitely not.

Quote from: webny99 on September 19, 2022, 10:39:42 AM
I've heard the city name Medford, but I wouldn't have known offhand that it was in southern Oregon.
First city I thought of was the one in northern Wisconsin (pop. 4,300). I knew Medford, OR existed, but barely.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on September 19, 2022, 10:54:12 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 17, 2022, 07:37:33 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on September 14, 2022, 10:24:55 PM
Quote from: 1 on September 14, 2022, 03:42:46 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on September 14, 2022, 03:31:26 PM
Maybe people that live in Medford have heard of it?

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 14, 2022, 03:36:47 PM
A lot of people who use I-5 have heard of Medford. 

Quote from: US 89 on September 11, 2022, 11:40:47 PM
</s>

I thought /s was mainly a reddit thing, when did people start using it elsewhere?

I've seen it here and there throughout the Internet, mostly because there's no better way to denote sarcasm.

I have never seen that, but partly because I like the Andy Kaufman approach to life.  Do something or say something, then walk off and no one knows if it was a joke or if you are serious, and never tell anyone.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SkyPesos on September 19, 2022, 11:04:13 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 19, 2022, 10:39:42 AM
Quote from: 1 on September 19, 2022, 09:53:25 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on September 19, 2022, 09:37:53 AM
^I'd say over half of people in the US have heard of Medford, it's the largest city in southern Oregon.

I've only heard of it due to this forum and my interest in US politics. I wouldn't be surprised if the one in Massachusetts is better known.

I've heard the city name Medford, but I wouldn't have known offhand that it was in southern Oregon.
First Medford to come to my mind is the one in Massachusetts, not Oregon's.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on September 19, 2022, 11:17:43 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 19, 2022, 11:04:13 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 19, 2022, 10:39:42 AM
Quote from: 1 on September 19, 2022, 09:53:25 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on September 19, 2022, 09:37:53 AM
^I'd say over half of people in the US have heard of Medford, it's the largest city in southern Oregon.

I've only heard of it due to this forum and my interest in US politics. I wouldn't be surprised if the one in Massachusetts is better known.

I've heard the city name Medford, but I wouldn't have known offhand that it was in southern Oregon.
First Medford to come to my mind is the one in Massachusetts, not Oregon's.

And living out west, I've definitely heard of the Oregon one but only vaguely find the MA one familiar.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kirbykart on September 19, 2022, 02:36:29 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 19, 2022, 11:17:43 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 19, 2022, 11:04:13 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 19, 2022, 10:39:42 AM
Quote from: 1 on September 19, 2022, 09:53:25 AM
Quote from: kirbykart on September 19, 2022, 09:37:53 AM
^I'd say over half of people in the US have heard of Medford, it's the largest city in southern Oregon.

I've only heard of it due to this forum and my interest in US politics. I wouldn't be surprised if the one in Massachusetts is better known.

I've heard the city name Medford, but I wouldn't have known offhand that it was in southern Oregon.
First Medford to come to my mind is the one in Massachusetts, not Oregon's.

And living out west, I've definitely heard of the Oregon one but only vaguely find the MA one familiar.
I live in New York and I've heard of Bedford, MA, not Medford. But I have heard of Medford before I came to this forum.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on October 25, 2022, 08:04:08 PM
I am pretty sure that New Mexico is playing on a level here most of us mere mortals can't comprehend. Besides the questionable choices of Interstate control cities like Tucumcari, Santa Rosa, and Gallup (although that one obeys the Troup Rule), interchanges seem to have control cities of basically whatever random thing is near the exit, including gems like "Refinery" and "Continental Divide". Of course, in eastern New Mexico, there are plenty of interchanges with no control at all, so maybe I should be careful what I wish for. At least "Continental Divide" could be signed for NM 122, though.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kirbykart on October 27, 2022, 08:33:31 AM
New Mexico is insane.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: kirbykart on October 27, 2022, 07:04:39 PM
I find it strange that Oklahoma only uses 3 in-state controls. It actually works alright, it just feels odd when you think about it.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on October 30, 2022, 02:16:41 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on October 27, 2022, 07:04:39 PM
I find it strange that Oklahoma only uses 3 in-state controls. It actually works alright, it just feels odd when you think about it.

That's because there's only three cities in Oklahoma that make sense as controls. When the Interstate system was built, the top three cities in terms of population were Oklahoma City, Tulsa, and Lawton, the three cities used as controls. Now, Norman and Broken Arrow are bigger than Lawton, but they're so close to Oklahoma City and Tulsa respectively that they lack the prominence needed to make a good control city. Any other cities in Oklahoma that could conceivably be used wouldn't be all that different than what New Mexico uses (Tucumcari and Santa Rosa are the same sort of town that Sayre, Weatherford, Ardmore, and Sallisaw are).

When US-412 is upgraded to I-??, Enid will probably become a control city for I-?? westbound, as that is one of the current control cities for the Cimarron Turnpike (it also uses Stillwater as a secondary control). I doubt I-35 will be affected, as Enid is quite a bit west of it, so Wichita remains the sensible choice. I-?? eastbound will almost certainly use Springdale, as new signage installed in Tulsa for US-412 since the plan to make it an interstate was released uses Springdale as a control (before, it was Siloam Springs).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on October 30, 2022, 02:25:51 PM
Quote from: kirbykart on October 27, 2022, 07:04:39 PM
I find it strange that Oklahoma only uses 3 in-state controls. It actually works alright, it just feels odd when you think about it.

NJ for its small size has many for local roads on highways that cross the state.  I-80, though keeps it simple, with New York at particularly ever EB guide and mostly Delaware Water Gap WB ( though some use Paterson and Stroudsburg at guides WB related).

I-78 sort of as the few entrances assigned control cities manage to keep Newark Consistent as well as Clinton going WB. Easton and NYC now at some mainly I-287 at Bedminster.

I-295, I don't think uses them at all from ramps, but pull throughs use Camden and Trenton NB and always Del. Mem Br S Bound except from I-195/ NJ 29 using the one of a kind Princeton (NB) and Camden SB.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Osthagen on December 14, 2022, 08:14:52 PM
Personally, I think the whole system of "control" cities and the signage thereof is in need of a rejig - with what we have now, we end up with a system in which long-distance interstate are signed to uberlocal control-cities that nobody outside the local area has heard of, and where mileage signs are woefully inconsistent, etc.

Control cities should be divided into 2 tiers: "control" and "super-control". "Super-Control" cities would be big places of national, strategic importance; I'm talking destinations like Boston, Chicago, New York, Phoenix and the like - these would be spread at a roughly equal distance along the route (though in really remote areas, they'll inevitably be more spread out). One would always appear on signage, and once reached, would be replaced by the next one.
"Control" cities would be other major destinations that a route passes through, or the location of a major junction.

Taking the I-10 as an example, working West, your Super-Control cities would be:
Jacksonville
Tallahassee
Mobile
New Orleans
Houston
San Antonio
El Paso
Phoenix
Los Angeles

And again using the I-10, the number of Control Cities are too many to list, but they'd include places like:
Lake City (for I-75)
Pensacola
Baton Rouge
Lafayette (for I-49)
etc, etc

Plus, you'd have any numerber of local destinations along your route .

On interchange directional signs, you'd have the following information:
- the next Super Control city
- the next Control city

So, for example, on the I-10 going west at Jacksonville, a direction sign would read "Lake City, Tallahassee".

Mileage signs would contain the following:
- the next super-control city
- the next 2 control cities
- plus one more local destination.

Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ilpt4u on December 14, 2022, 08:44:50 PM
Quote from: Osthagen on December 14, 2022, 08:14:52 PM
Personally, I think the whole system of "control" cities and the signage thereof is in need of a rejig - with what we have now, we end up with a system in which long-distance interstate are signed to uberlocal control-cities that nobody outside the local area has heard of, and where mileage signs are woefully inconsistent, etc.

Control cities should be divided into 2 tiers: "control" and "super-control". "Super-Control" cities would be big places of national, strategic importance; I'm talking destinations like Boston, Chicago, New York, Phoenix and the like - these would be spread at a roughly equal distance along the route (though in really remote areas, they'll inevitably be more spread out). One would always appear on signage, and once reached, would be replaced by the next one.
"Control" cities would be other major destinations that a route passes through, or the location of a major junction.

Taking the I-10 as an example, working West, your Super-Control cities would be:
Jacksonville
Tallahassee
Mobile
New Orleans
Houston
San Antonio
El Paso
Phoenix
Los Angeles

And again using the I-10, the number of Control Cities are too many to list, but they'd include places like:
Lake City (for I-75)
Pensacola
Baton Rouge
Lafayette (for I-49)
etc, etc

Plus, you'd have any numerber of local destinations along your route .

On interchange directional signs, you'd have the following information:
- the next Super Control city
- the next Control city

So, for example, on the I-10 going west at Jacksonville, a direction sign would read "Lake City, Tallahassee".

Mileage signs would contain the following:
- the next super-control city
- the next 2 control cities
- plus one more local destination.
Some states already do this, with Primary/Long Distance and Major and Secondary/Smaller and Local Controls
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: US 89 on December 15, 2022, 12:35:11 AM
The thing though is then people would just get into fights over whether someplace was big enough to be "control" or whether it deserves "super-control" status. As an example, you have Tallahassee as a super-control and Pensacola as a regular control...but Pensacola's metropolitan area is significantly larger.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Scott5114 on December 15, 2022, 06:03:05 AM
Also some states already follow your "super-control" idea in practice. (Oklahoma's control cities are the three largest cities in the state when the Interstates were built; no more, no less.) Others make every little podunk county seat a control. (I sure am glad it's so easy to find iconic Southwestern towns like Grants, New Mexico.) So really, I think your problem is federalism rather than the control city system.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on December 16, 2022, 08:57:01 PM
Quote from: Osthagen on December 14, 2022, 08:14:52 PM
Personally, I think the whole system of "control" cities and the signage thereof is in need of a rejig - with what we have now, we end up with a system in which long-distance interstate are signed to uberlocal control-cities that nobody outside the local area has heard of, and where mileage signs are woefully inconsistent, etc.

Control cities should be divided into 2 tiers: "control" and "super-control". "Super-Control" cities would be big places of national, strategic importance; I'm talking destinations like Boston, Chicago, New York, Phoenix and the like - these would be spread at a roughly equal distance along the route (though in really remote areas, they'll inevitably be more spread out). One would always appear on signage, and once reached, would be replaced by the next one.
"Control" cities would be other major destinations that a route passes through, or the location of a major junction.

Taking the I-10 as an example, working West, your Super-Control cities would be:
Jacksonville
Tallahassee
Mobile
New Orleans
Houston
San Antonio
El Paso
Phoenix
Los Angeles

And again using the I-10, the number of Control Cities are too many to list, but they'd include places like:
Lake City (for I-75)
Pensacola
Baton Rouge
Lafayette (for I-49)
etc, etc

Plus, you'd have any numerber of local destinations along your route .

On interchange directional signs, you'd have the following information:
- the next Super Control city
- the next Control city

So, for example, on the I-10 going west at Jacksonville, a direction sign would read "Lake City, Tallahassee".

Mileage signs would contain the following:
- the next super-control city
- the next 2 control cities
- plus one more local destination.


When you said "super control", I thought you were going to give, in your example, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Houston, San Antonio, Phoenix and Los Angeles super control status. What you did instead is define, as you see it, the primary/secondary tiers that for the most part already exist.

I do think that there should be 3 tiers, personally.
Primary for cities that have one of these 5 criteria:
1. Metro Area over 500k.
2. State Capitol or Largest City in the state.
3. City over 200k with a major university
4. City over 100k with top 50 domestic commercial airport.
5. End of the highway not at another interstate.

Secondary for cities that have one of these criteria:
1. City over 50k with a county population over 200k. Places most people have heard of.
2. Major tourist destination.
3. Junction with another primary interstate nearby and at least 3 exits serving the city.

Local for all others.

These are not hard rules but guidelines. Like everything else, there are exceptions to rules.

Primary (P), Secondary (S), Local (L)
So if I was to take I-10, I would do this going west:
Jacksonville (P)
Lake City (S)
Tallahassee (P)
Pensacola (S)
Mobile (P)
Pascagoula (L)
Biloxi (S)
Gulfport (S)
Slidell (L)
New Orleans (P)
Baton Rouge (P)
Lafayette (P)
Lake Charles (S)
Orange (L)
Beaumont (S)
Houston (P)
Columbus (L)
San Antonio (P)
Ft Stockton (L)
Van Horn (L)
El Paso (P)
Las Cruces (S)
Deming (L)
Lordsburg (L)
Willcox (L)
Benson (L)
Tucson (P)
Casa Grande (S)
Phoenix (P)
Blythe (L)
Palm Springs (S)
San Bernardino (S)
Los Angeles (P)
Santa Monica (P)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Osthagen on December 17, 2022, 10:54:50 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 16, 2022, 08:57:01 PM
When you said "super control", I thought you were going to give, in your example, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Houston, San Antonio, Phoenix and Los Angeles super control status. What you did instead is define, as you see it, the primary/secondary tiers that for the most part already exist.
I am aware that similar tiers exist in some states, but the aim of my proposal was to provide a system that would define exactly how different tiers of control cities are signed, which would eliminate the problem of inconsistent signage and  signage on long-distance routes being uber-local.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on March 18, 2023, 02:49:10 PM
Quote from: FredAkbar on September 14, 2022, 02:24:11 AM


Are things like this due to a preference for using control cities within that state, rather than those of another state? I've seen it mentioned that CA has a strong preference for this so perhaps other states do as well. Though that only explains Trinidad and not Raton in the CO example.

California signs mostly in-state control cities I think in big part because it's a large state to begin with.  Most of the controls on I-5 are good choices.  It's only I-8, I-10 and I-40 that need help.  And despite CA's preference to post in-state control cities, they're still reluctant to sign Los Angeles as the westbound control on I-40 west (especially since it's signed within Arizona from Flagstaff).  Barstow ought to be a secondary control point though.

Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on March 18, 2023, 05:20:29 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on March 18, 2023, 02:49:10 PM
Quote from: FredAkbar on September 14, 2022, 02:24:11 AM


Are things like this due to a preference for using control cities within that state, rather than those of another state? I've seen it mentioned that CA has a strong preference for this so perhaps other states do as well. Though that only explains Trinidad and not Raton in the CO example.

California signs mostly in-state control cities I think in big part because it's a large state to begin with.  Most of the controls on I-5 are good choices.  It's only I-8, I-10 and I-40 that need help.  And despite CA's preference to post in-state control cities, they're still reluctant to sign Los Angeles as the westbound control on I-40 west (especially since it's signed within Arizona from Flagstaff).  Barstow ought to be a secondary control point though.
I-15 isn't great either, as they use Barstow instead of Las Vegas. Barstow is fine as a secondary but Las Vegas is where most people are going.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: US 89 on March 18, 2023, 05:38:45 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 18, 2023, 05:20:29 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on March 18, 2023, 02:49:10 PM
Quote from: FredAkbar on September 14, 2022, 02:24:11 AM


Are things like this due to a preference for using control cities within that state, rather than those of another state? I've seen it mentioned that CA has a strong preference for this so perhaps other states do as well. Though that only explains Trinidad and not Raton in the CO example.

California signs mostly in-state control cities I think in big part because it's a large state to begin with.  Most of the controls on I-5 are good choices.  It's only I-8, I-10 and I-40 that need help.  And despite CA's preference to post in-state control cities, they're still reluctant to sign Los Angeles as the westbound control on I-40 west (especially since it's signed within Arizona from Flagstaff).  Barstow ought to be a secondary control point though.
I-15 isn't great either, as they use Barstow instead of Las Vegas. Barstow is fine as a secondary but Las Vegas is where most people are going.

But a pretty good proportion of the long-distance traffic heading out of the LA metro on I-15 is going to go east on I-40, which doesn't go to Las Vegas. Seems totally fine to me.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on March 25, 2023, 10:42:42 AM
Just discovered that on US 550 in New Mexico, Albuquerque is the primary control city going south from Bloomfield.  US 550's southern terminus is in Bernalillo; but most traffic will just continue onto I-25 south, and Albuquerque is only around 15-20 minutes away.  Or if you're headed to the west side (e.g. to Cottonwood Mall), you would just take NM 528 south through Rio Rancho, which becomes the Coors Bypass as 528 exits to Alameda Blvd; and not far after the 528/45 junction, you reach Cottonwood Mall.

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.711111,-107.9860214,3a,75y,84.05h,95.66t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sbYWCiWBGDGffImuGoyn6Bw!2e0!5s20220601T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DbYWCiWBGDGffImuGoyn6Bw%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D38.462906%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Farmington is the northbound control city on US 550 from Bernalillo; Bloomfield isn't.  Why they decided to sign Farmington?  It's much bigger than Bloomfield, and it's only 20 minutes going west on US 64.  An interesting fact is 550's southern terminus used to be Farmington, and it went in a diagonal to the town of Aztec before turning north towards Durango, Colorado.  At the time, the stretch from Bloomfield to Bernalillo was NM 44.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on March 25, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Quote from: US 89 on March 18, 2023, 05:38:45 PM

But a pretty good proportion of the long-distance traffic heading out of the LA metro on I-15 is going to go east on I-40, which doesn't go to Las Vegas. Seems totally fine to me.

The least CalTrans ought to do is dual sign Barstow / Las Vegas, as seen on one of the overheads at the I-10 interchange. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0671801,-117.552936,3a,75y,110.96h,95.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shH6yvc3WkCaRoMpfHL9pQg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on March 27, 2023, 01:42:32 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on March 25, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Quote from: US 89 on March 18, 2023, 05:38:45 PM

But a pretty good proportion of the long-distance traffic heading out of the LA metro on I-15 is going to go east on I-40, which doesn't go to Las Vegas. Seems totally fine to me.

The least CalTrans ought to do is dual sign Barstow / Las Vegas, as seen on one of the overheads at the I-10 interchange. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0671801,-117.552936,3a,75y,110.96h,95.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shH6yvc3WkCaRoMpfHL9pQg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Beautiful signs, although no cardinal direction for I-10.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: SEWIGuy on March 27, 2023, 02:05:33 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on March 27, 2023, 01:42:32 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on March 25, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Quote from: US 89 on March 18, 2023, 05:38:45 PM

But a pretty good proportion of the long-distance traffic heading out of the LA metro on I-15 is going to go east on I-40, which doesn't go to Las Vegas. Seems totally fine to me.

The least CalTrans ought to do is dual sign Barstow / Las Vegas, as seen on one of the overheads at the I-10 interchange. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0671801,-117.552936,3a,75y,110.96h,95.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shH6yvc3WkCaRoMpfHL9pQg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Beautiful signs, although no cardinal direction for I-10.

Does there need to be?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on March 27, 2023, 03:35:23 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on March 25, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Quote from: US 89 on March 18, 2023, 05:38:45 PM

But a pretty good proportion of the long-distance traffic heading out of the LA metro on I-15 is going to go east on I-40, which doesn't go to Las Vegas. Seems totally fine to me.

The least CalTrans ought to do is dual sign Barstow / Las Vegas, as seen on one of the overheads at the I-10 interchange. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0671801,-117.552936,3a,75y,110.96h,95.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shH6yvc3WkCaRoMpfHL9pQg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
I would put Phoenix instead of Indio on that sign.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on March 27, 2023, 03:53:37 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 27, 2023, 03:35:23 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on March 25, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Quote from: US 89 on March 18, 2023, 05:38:45 PM

But a pretty good proportion of the long-distance traffic heading out of the LA metro on I-15 is going to go east on I-40, which doesn't go to Las Vegas. Seems totally fine to me.

The least CalTrans ought to do is dual sign Barstow / Las Vegas, as seen on one of the overheads at the I-10 interchange. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0671801,-117.552936,3a,75y,110.96h,95.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shH6yvc3WkCaRoMpfHL9pQg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
I would put Phoenix instead of Indio on that sign.
Agreed. I think Palm Springs is better than Indio because it is more of a tourist destination.
From I-5, I would sign San Bernardino/Phoenix. I-15 would be Palm Springs/Phoenix.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on March 27, 2023, 03:59:21 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on March 27, 2023, 03:53:37 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 27, 2023, 03:35:23 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on March 25, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Quote from: US 89 on March 18, 2023, 05:38:45 PM

But a pretty good proportion of the long-distance traffic heading out of the LA metro on I-15 is going to go east on I-40, which doesn't go to Las Vegas. Seems totally fine to me.

The least CalTrans ought to do is dual sign Barstow / Las Vegas, as seen on one of the overheads at the I-10 interchange. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0671801,-117.552936,3a,75y,110.96h,95.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shH6yvc3WkCaRoMpfHL9pQg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
I would put Phoenix instead of Indio on that sign.
Agreed. I think Palm Springs is better than Indio because it is more of a tourist destination.
From I-5, I would sign San Bernardino/Phoenix. I-15 would be Palm Springs/Phoenix.
Well from I-15 you still aren't to San Bernardino yet so they still sign it on I-10 east.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on March 27, 2023, 04:10:21 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 27, 2023, 03:59:21 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on March 27, 2023, 03:53:37 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 27, 2023, 03:35:23 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on March 25, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Quote from: US 89 on March 18, 2023, 05:38:45 PM

But a pretty good proportion of the long-distance traffic heading out of the LA metro on I-15 is going to go east on I-40, which doesn't go to Las Vegas. Seems totally fine to me.

The least CalTrans ought to do is dual sign Barstow / Las Vegas, as seen on one of the overheads at the I-10 interchange. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0671801,-117.552936,3a,75y,110.96h,95.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shH6yvc3WkCaRoMpfHL9pQg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
I would put Phoenix instead of Indio on that sign.
Agreed. I think Palm Springs is better than Indio because it is more of a tourist destination.
From I-5, I would sign San Bernardino/Phoenix. I-15 would be Palm Springs/Phoenix.
Well from I-15 you still aren't to San Bernardino yet so they still sign it on I-10 east.
But when you get to I-15, there are San Bernardino exits north on 15 as well as east on 10.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: ethanhopkin14 on March 28, 2023, 09:55:03 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 27, 2023, 02:05:33 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on March 27, 2023, 01:42:32 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on March 25, 2023, 10:55:58 AM
Quote from: US 89 on March 18, 2023, 05:38:45 PM

But a pretty good proportion of the long-distance traffic heading out of the LA metro on I-15 is going to go east on I-40, which doesn't go to Las Vegas. Seems totally fine to me.

The least CalTrans ought to do is dual sign Barstow / Las Vegas, as seen on one of the overheads at the I-10 interchange. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0671801,-117.552936,3a,75y,110.96h,95.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shH6yvc3WkCaRoMpfHL9pQg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Beautiful signs, although no cardinal direction for I-10.

Does there need to be?
Always.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: sprjus4 on March 28, 2023, 12:06:47 PM
I've noticed a number of times in both Virginia and North Carolina, at least, they will sometimes omit the cardinal direction on the through signage. I'm not sure why...

Here's an example: https://maps.app.goo.gl/scsN5CYUBRLbbpmd8?g_st=ic
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on March 29, 2023, 11:32:51 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 16, 2022, 08:57:01 PM

When you said "super control", I thought you were going to give, in your example, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Houston, San Antonio, Phoenix and Los Angeles super control status. What you did instead is define, as you see it, the primary/secondary tiers that for the most part already exist.

I do think that there should be 3 tiers, personally.
Primary for cities that have one of these 5 criteria:
1. Metro Area over 500k.
2. State Capitol or Largest City in the state.
3. City over 200k with a major university
4. City over 100k with top 50 domestic commercial airport.
5. End of the highway not at another interstate.

Secondary for cities that have one of these criteria:
1. City over 50k with a county population over 200k. Places most people have heard of.
2. Major tourist destination.
3. Junction with another primary interstate nearby and at least 3 exits serving the city.

Local for all others.

These are not hard rules but guidelines. Like everything else, there are exceptions to rules.

Primary (P), Secondary (S), Local (L)
So if I was to take I-10, I would do this going west:
Jacksonville (P)
Lake City (S)
Tallahassee (P)
Pensacola (S)
Mobile (P)
Pascagoula (L)
Biloxi (S)
Gulfport (S)
Slidell (L)
New Orleans (P)
Baton Rouge (P)
Lafayette (P)
Lake Charles (S)
Orange (L)
Beaumont (S)
Houston (P)
Columbus (L)
San Antonio (P)
Ft Stockton (L)
Van Horn (L)
El Paso (P)
Las Cruces (S)
Deming (L)
Lordsburg (L)
Willcox (L)
Benson (L)
Tucson (P)
Casa Grande (S)
Phoenix (P)
Blythe (L)
Palm Springs (S)
San Bernardino (S)
Los Angeles (P)
Santa Monica (P)

For I-25 south:

Casper (S)
Cheyenne (P)
Ft. Collins (S)
Denver (P)
Colorado Springs (P)
Pueblo (S)
Trinidad (L)
Raton (L)
Las Vegas (L)
Santa Fe (S)
Albuquerque (P)
Los Lunas (L)
Belen (L)
Socorro (L)
Truth or Consequences (L)
Las Cruces (S)
El Paso (P)

I-40 west from Little Rock to western terminus (you can mention control cities to use as primaries or secondaries for Wilmington to Little Rock):

Fort Smith (P - dual signed with Oklahoma City)
Oklahoma City (P)
Amarillo (P)
Tucumcari (L)
Santa Rosa (L)
Albuquerque (P)
Grants (L)
Gallup (S)
Holbrook (L)
Winslow (L)
Flagstaff (P)
Williams (L)
Seligman (L)
Kingman (S)
Needles (L)
Barstow (S)
Los Angeles (P)

Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on March 30, 2023, 08:58:15 AM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on March 29, 2023, 11:32:51 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 16, 2022, 08:57:01 PM

When you said "super control", I thought you were going to give, in your example, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Houston, San Antonio, Phoenix and Los Angeles super control status. What you did instead is define, as you see it, the primary/secondary tiers that for the most part already exist.

I do think that there should be 3 tiers, personally.
Primary for cities that have one of these 5 criteria:
1. Metro Area over 500k.
2. State Capitol or Largest City in the state.
3. City over 200k with a major university
4. City over 100k with top 50 domestic commercial airport.
5. End of the highway not at another interstate.

Secondary for cities that have one of these criteria:
1. City over 50k with a county population over 200k. Places most people have heard of.
2. Major tourist destination.
3. Junction with another primary interstate nearby and at least 3 exits serving the city.

Local for all others.

These are not hard rules but guidelines. Like everything else, there are exceptions to rules.

Primary (P), Secondary (S), Local (L)
So if I was to take I-10, I would do this going west:
Jacksonville (P)
Lake City (S)
Tallahassee (P)
Pensacola (S)
Mobile (P)
Pascagoula (L)
Biloxi (S)
Gulfport (S)
Slidell (L)
New Orleans (P)
Baton Rouge (P)
Lafayette (P)
Lake Charles (S)
Orange (L)
Beaumont (S)
Houston (P)
Columbus (L)
San Antonio (P)
Ft Stockton (L)
Van Horn (L)
El Paso (P)
Las Cruces (S)
Deming (L)
Lordsburg (L)
Willcox (L)
Benson (L)
Tucson (P)
Casa Grande (S)
Phoenix (P)
Blythe (L)
Palm Springs (S)
San Bernardino (S)
Los Angeles (P)
Santa Monica (P)

For I-25 south:

Casper (S)
Cheyenne (P)
Ft. Collins (S)
Denver (P)
Colorado Springs (P)
Pueblo (S)
Trinidad (L)
Raton (L)
Las Vegas (L)
Santa Fe (S)
Albuquerque (P)
Los Lunas (L)
Belen (L)
Socorro (L)
Truth or Consequences (L)
Las Cruces (S)
El Paso (P)

I-40 west from Little Rock to western terminus (you can mention control cities to use as primaries or secondaries for Wilmington to Little Rock):

Fort Smith (P - dual signed with Oklahoma City)
Oklahoma City (P)
Amarillo (P)
Tucumcari (L)
Santa Rosa (L)
Albuquerque (P)
Grants (L)
Gallup (S)
Holbrook (L)
Winslow (L)
Flagstaff (P)
Williams (L)
Seligman (L)
Kingman (S)
Needles (L)
Barstow (S)
Los Angeles (P)


Santa Fe would qualify as a primary under the state capitol rule.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: OCGuy81 on March 30, 2023, 03:40:29 PM
Oregon doesn't really like to use any control cities outside her borders until it's absolutely necessary.

I-5 SB, they won't even mention Yreka, Redding, or Sacramento until you're in the last city in Oregon, Ashland.

I-84, at the junction with I-82.  There's no mention of using I-82 for any cities in Washington.  Just Hermiston and Umatilla.  At the same junction, the control cities for I-84 are Pendleton and Ontario.  No mention of Boise.

I think Sacramento or even Redding would be a good control city once you get to the Medford area.

And on I-82, maybe mention the Tri-Cities in Washington? Or Yakima?

Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2023, 04:37:24 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on March 29, 2023, 11:32:51 PM
For I-25 south:

Casper (S)
Cheyenne (P)
Ft. Collins (S)
Denver (P)
Colorado Springs (P)
Pueblo (S)
Trinidad (L)
Raton (L)
Las Vegas (L)
Santa Fe (S)
Albuquerque (P)
Los Lunas (L)
Belen (L)
Socorro (L)
Truth or Consequences (L)
Las Cruces (S)
El Paso (P)

Bolding mine. Why? Belen is currently signed (and bad), but adding another town barely over 10K people that's only 10 miles away from ABQ? Seems unnecessary. If you include that for the general Albuquerque area, why wouldn't you sign Frederick (a town no one has heard of outside of Colorado) near Denver?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MisterWong on March 30, 2023, 06:36:13 PM
Okay, I am a long-time lurker but a first-time poster. Let me try using hobsini2's 'tier list' for I-95 (closest primary interstate to me) and using the AASHTO control city list. In addition, I'll post my own opinion at the end (not sure what other thread or forum to):

-AASHTO List-
Miami (P)
West Palm Beach (S)
Daytona Beach (S)
Jacksonville (P)
Savannah (S)
Florence (S)
Fayetteville (S)
Benson (L)
Rocky Mount (L or S, due to the city straddling two counties)
Petersburg (L)
Richmond (P)
Washington, DC (P)
Baltimore (P)
Wilmington (S)
Chester (S)
Philidelphia (P)
Trenton (P)
New York City (P)
New Haven (P)
New London (S)
Providence (P)
Boston (P)
Portsmouth (S)
Kittery (S)
Portland, ME (P)
Augusta (P)
Bangor (L)
Houlton (S)

Personally, I think that this is a rather bad list, especially in the Carolinas, where the counties are large and yet the cities really are not that important for navigation purposes. Similarly, Portsmouth and Kittery are far too small to be signed between Portland and Boston and only get secondary status due to being in large counties. Here's my list assuming mostly long-distance traffic unfamiliar with the route. This has some rather wild picks, and it uses two control cities for much of the route. I'm pretty sure that this would disqualify me from working in a Chamber of Commerce anywhere between Richmond and Savannah, but further ado:

-Northbound-
West Palm Beach
Jacksonville
Savannah
Florence/Washington, DC
Fayetteville/Washington, DC
Richmond/Washington, DC
Washington, DC
Baltimore
Philidelpha
New York City
New Haven
Providence
Boston
Peabody
Portland, ME
Augusta
Bangor
Houlton

-Southbound-
Bangor
Augusta
Portland, ME
Boston
Canton
Providence
New Haven/New York City
New York City
Philidelphia
Baltimore/Washington, DC
Washington, DC
Richmond
Fayetteville/Florida
Florence/Florida
Savannah/Florida
Jacksonville
Orlando/Miami
Miami

You will notice that I do not have much affection for the Carolinas, and I put a lot of emphasis on Maine. In both cases, there really isn't much to sign. In the case of the Carolinas, I felt that that since it was mostly tourists along that stretch of road, I should put their likely destination going southbound and a large city that they passed going southbound going northbound. This is also why I mentioned Orlando out of Jacksonville. As for Maine there really isn't anything noteworthy to sign in that state so I had to let in some smaller places. Thoughts?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: rlb2024 on March 31, 2023, 03:18:08 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 30, 2023, 03:40:29 PM
Oregon doesn't really like to use any control cities outside her borders until it's absolutely necessary.

I-5 SB, they won't even mention Yreka, Redding, or Sacramento until you're in the last city in Oregon, Ashland.

I-84, at the junction with I-82.  There's no mention of using I-82 for any cities in Washington.  Just Hermiston and Umatilla.  At the same junction, the control cities for I-84 are Pendleton and Ontario.  No mention of Boise.

I think Sacramento or even Redding would be a good control city once you get to the Medford area.

And on I-82, maybe mention the Tri-Cities in Washington? Or Yakima?
Looks like they now mention Kennewick at the I-84/I-82 interchange . . .

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7940138,-119.3845995,3a,75y,275.69h,102.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh8ifObRFIpGzYOmL95pCZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7940138,-119.3845995,3a,75y,275.69h,102.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh8ifObRFIpGzYOmL95pCZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: OCGuy81 on March 31, 2023, 03:25:15 PM
Quote from: rlb2024 on March 31, 2023, 03:18:08 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 30, 2023, 03:40:29 PM
Oregon doesn't really like to use any control cities outside her borders until it's absolutely necessary.

I-5 SB, they won't even mention Yreka, Redding, or Sacramento until you're in the last city in Oregon, Ashland.

I-84, at the junction with I-82.  There's no mention of using I-82 for any cities in Washington.  Just Hermiston and Umatilla.  At the same junction, the control cities for I-84 are Pendleton and Ontario.  No mention of Boise.

I think Sacramento or even Redding would be a good control city once you get to the Medford area.

And on I-82, maybe mention the Tri-Cities in Washington? Or Yakima?
Looks like they now mention Kennewick at the I-84/I-82 interchange . . .

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7940138,-119.3845995,3a,75y,275.69h,102.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh8ifObRFIpGzYOmL95pCZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7940138,-119.3845995,3a,75y,275.69h,102.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh8ifObRFIpGzYOmL95pCZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)


Oh wow, that's an update.  Last time I drove that, I remember it being Hermiston and Umatilla, even though Kennewick is much larger than both.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on March 31, 2023, 04:45:23 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 31, 2023, 03:25:15 PM
Quote from: rlb2024 on March 31, 2023, 03:18:08 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 30, 2023, 03:40:29 PM
Oregon doesn't really like to use any control cities outside her borders until it's absolutely necessary.

I-5 SB, they won't even mention Yreka, Redding, or Sacramento until you're in the last city in Oregon, Ashland.

I-84, at the junction with I-82.  There's no mention of using I-82 for any cities in Washington.  Just Hermiston and Umatilla.  At the same junction, the control cities for I-84 are Pendleton and Ontario.  No mention of Boise.

I think Sacramento or even Redding would be a good control city once you get to the Medford area.

And on I-82, maybe mention the Tri-Cities in Washington? Or Yakima?
Looks like they now mention Kennewick at the I-84/I-82 interchange . . .

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7940138,-119.3845995,3a,75y,275.69h,102.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh8ifObRFIpGzYOmL95pCZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7940138,-119.3845995,3a,75y,275.69h,102.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh8ifObRFIpGzYOmL95pCZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)


Oh wow, that's an update.  Last time I drove that, I remember it being Hermiston and Umatilla, even though Kennewick is much larger than both.
I would get rid of Hermiston and replace it with Seattle. I believe that the Hermiston/ Umatilla is going eastbound on I-84.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on March 31, 2023, 06:31:05 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 31, 2023, 04:45:23 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 31, 2023, 03:25:15 PM
Quote from: rlb2024 on March 31, 2023, 03:18:08 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 30, 2023, 03:40:29 PM
Oregon doesn't really like to use any control cities outside her borders until it's absolutely necessary.

I-5 SB, they won't even mention Yreka, Redding, or Sacramento until you're in the last city in Oregon, Ashland.

I-84, at the junction with I-82.  There's no mention of using I-82 for any cities in Washington.  Just Hermiston and Umatilla.  At the same junction, the control cities for I-84 are Pendleton and Ontario.  No mention of Boise.

I think Sacramento or even Redding would be a good control city once you get to the Medford area.

And on I-82, maybe mention the Tri-Cities in Washington? Or Yakima?
Looks like they now mention Kennewick at the I-84/I-82 interchange . . .

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7940138,-119.3845995,3a,75y,275.69h,102.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh8ifObRFIpGzYOmL95pCZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7940138,-119.3845995,3a,75y,275.69h,102.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh8ifObRFIpGzYOmL95pCZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)


Oh wow, that's an update.  Last time I drove that, I remember it being Hermiston and Umatilla, even though Kennewick is much larger than both.
I would get rid of Hermiston and replace it with Seattle. I believe that the Hermiston/ Umatilla is going eastbound on I-84.
There is an aux sign before the interchange that says "Yakima, Spokane NEXT RIGHT". No mention of Seattle though.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Roadgeekteen on April 01, 2023, 02:16:44 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on March 31, 2023, 06:31:05 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 31, 2023, 04:45:23 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 31, 2023, 03:25:15 PM
Quote from: rlb2024 on March 31, 2023, 03:18:08 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on March 30, 2023, 03:40:29 PM
Oregon doesn't really like to use any control cities outside her borders until it's absolutely necessary.

I-5 SB, they won't even mention Yreka, Redding, or Sacramento until you're in the last city in Oregon, Ashland.

I-84, at the junction with I-82.  There's no mention of using I-82 for any cities in Washington.  Just Hermiston and Umatilla.  At the same junction, the control cities for I-84 are Pendleton and Ontario.  No mention of Boise.

I think Sacramento or even Redding would be a good control city once you get to the Medford area.

And on I-82, maybe mention the Tri-Cities in Washington? Or Yakima?
Looks like they now mention Kennewick at the I-84/I-82 interchange . . .

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7940138,-119.3845995,3a,75y,275.69h,102.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh8ifObRFIpGzYOmL95pCZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7940138,-119.3845995,3a,75y,275.69h,102.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sh8ifObRFIpGzYOmL95pCZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)


Oh wow, that's an update.  Last time I drove that, I remember it being Hermiston and Umatilla, even though Kennewick is much larger than both.
I would get rid of Hermiston and replace it with Seattle. I believe that the Hermiston/ Umatilla is going eastbound on I-84.
There is an aux sign before the interchange that says "Yakima, Spokane NEXT RIGHT". No mention of Seattle though.
Why is Spokane listed and not Seattle? If this is westbound, Seattle makes way more sense.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 01, 2023, 07:06:27 AM
Since this is regarding the Pacific Northwest. Why is it that if I was on I-82 westbound coming up to I-90 that there are only signs for eastbound I-90 with the control cities of Vantage and Spokane, why is it that there are no signs at all for westbound I-90? Pretty sure the control city is supposed to be Ellensburg there.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on April 01, 2023, 07:29:52 AM
Why doesn't all the interchanges in Minneapolis and St. Paul have control cities?  What's even more odd is I-35E at I-94 where WB I-94 gets Minneapolis but I-94 EB or both directions of I-35E get nothing?
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: hobsini2 on April 01, 2023, 10:11:13 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 01, 2023, 07:06:27 AM
Since this is regarding the Pacific Northwest. Why is it that if I was on I-82 westbound coming up to I-90 that there are only signs for eastbound I-90 with the control cities of Vantage and Spokane, why is it that there are no signs at all for westbound I-90? Pretty sure the control city is supposed to be Ellensburg there.
It says Seattle.
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.9583231,-120.5067291,3a,75y,26.27h,95.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-mKmvu5j_EUSGeerYlmpWw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Flint1979 on April 01, 2023, 11:50:14 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on April 01, 2023, 10:11:13 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on April 01, 2023, 07:06:27 AM
Since this is regarding the Pacific Northwest. Why is it that if I was on I-82 westbound coming up to I-90 that there are only signs for eastbound I-90 with the control cities of Vantage and Spokane, why is it that there are no signs at all for westbound I-90? Pretty sure the control city is supposed to be Ellensburg there.
It says Seattle.
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.9583231,-120.5067291,3a,75y,26.27h,95.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-mKmvu5j_EUSGeerYlmpWw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
I didn't see that sign. I like how they got either lane lol.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on April 02, 2023, 01:23:25 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 30, 2023, 04:37:24 PM

Bolding mine. Why? Belen is currently signed (and bad), but adding another town barely over 10K people that's only 10 miles away from ABQ? Seems unnecessary. If you include that for the general Albuquerque area, why wouldn't you sign Frederick (a town no one has heard of outside of Colorado) near Denver?

I included Los Lunas since it's bigger than Belen, even though Belen was signed at the Big-I before the interchange was rebuilt in 2002.  And I have know idea why it was the control city from Albuquerque in the first place.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on April 02, 2023, 01:27:35 PM
I'd probably just sign Las Cruces myself, but have less of an issue with Socorro than either Las Lunas or Belen.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on April 02, 2023, 01:40:16 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on March 30, 2023, 08:58:15 AM

Santa Fe would qualify as a primary under the state capitol rule.


However, because Albuquerque is much bigger, has a major interstate junction, and is only about 50 minutes to an hour drive from Santa Fe, I would dual-sign Santa Fe / Albuquerque at most interchanges from the Colorado state line.  And I-25 north from Albuquerque ought to be dual-signed as Santa Fe / Denver.  I mentioned Denver because it would make things more consistent if NMDOT decided to sign interstate control cities the way Arizona does it — that is if I-40 west is signed as Flagstaff, I-40 east is Amarillo, and I-25 south is El Paso (or dual-signed Las Cruces / El Paso).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on April 02, 2023, 01:51:22 PM

Quote from: hobsini2 on March 30, 2023, 08:58:15 AM

Santa Fe would qualify as a primary under the state capitol rule.


Also, I've seen that on I-55 in Illinois, Chicago is the primary control city going from East St. Louis (and from where it spits from I-70); but Springfield and Bloomington are signed at smaller interchanges.  And on I-55 south from Chicago, St. Louis is the primary control city.  If a state capital isn't the largest city in a given state and a much larger city is on the same route, then they can qualify as secondary controls in those situations.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on April 04, 2023, 04:04:50 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 02, 2023, 01:27:35 PM
I'd probably just sign Las Cruces myself, but have less of an issue with Socorro than either Las Lunas or Belen.

Socorro I would only have as a local control point (i.e. it's only mentioned on distance signs).  Las Cruces can be a secondary control, with El Paso as the primary control on I-25 south from Albuquerque.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on April 04, 2023, 04:11:26 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on April 04, 2023, 04:04:50 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 02, 2023, 01:27:35 PM
I'd probably just sign Las Cruces myself, but have less of an issue with Socorro than either Las Lunas or Belen.

Socorro I would only have as a local control point (i.e. it's only mentioned on distance signs).  Las Cruces can be a secondary control, with El Paso as the primary control on I-25 south from Albuquerque.

At least Socorro is a junction point. Not that that's my main impulse when choosing a control city (hence why in another thread I argue against Albert Lea).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on April 13, 2023, 09:53:39 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 04, 2023, 04:11:26 PM

At least Socorro is a junction point. Not that that's my main impulse when choosing a control city (hence why in another thread I argue against Albert Lea).

In Socorro, you do have a junction with US 60 going west out of it to Magdalena and then into Arizona.  But most interstate traffic going south from Albuquerque is headed to Las Cruces or El Paso. 

Albert Lea is where the I-35 / I-90 junction is at, but the primary control city on 35N from Des Moines is Minneapolis since it's much bigger and more well-known (especially to out-of-state drivers).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: JayhawkCO on April 13, 2023, 12:26:28 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on April 13, 2023, 09:53:39 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 04, 2023, 04:11:26 PM

At least Socorro is a junction point. Not that that's my main impulse when choosing a control city (hence why in another thread I argue against Albert Lea).

In Socorro, you do have a junction with US 60 going west out of it to Magdalena and then into Arizona.  But most interstate traffic going south from Albuquerque is headed to Las Cruces or El Paso. 

Albert Lea is where the I-35 / I-90 junction is at, but the primary control city on 35N from Des Moines is Minneapolis since it's much bigger and more well-known (especially to out-of-state drivers).

And right nearby you have US380 heading east to Ruidoso and Roswell. (I know it's in San Antonio, not Socorro, but same general region.)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: rlb2024 on April 14, 2023, 01:56:12 PM
At the 10-12-59 interchange in Slidell, LA the control city for eastbound I-10 is Bay St. Louis.  My understanding is that it's a throwback to before I-10 was complete across south Mississippi, but that needs to be updated to either Gulfport or Biloxi.

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.3076924,-89.7466938,3a,75y,110.81h,83.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJVcIZJVzclOkvwMFR1xahw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@30.3076924,-89.7466938,3a,75y,110.81h,83.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJVcIZJVzclOkvwMFR1xahw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on April 14, 2023, 05:23:17 PM
I'm surprised this thread is still active as it's passion is in the Limon April Fools thread lately.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on April 18, 2023, 01:31:38 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 13, 2023, 12:26:28 PM
Quote from: MattHanson939 on April 13, 2023, 09:53:39 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 04, 2023, 04:11:26 PM

At least Socorro is a junction point. Not that that's my main impulse when choosing a control city (hence why in another thread I argue against Albert Lea).

In Socorro, you do have a junction with US 60 going west out of it to Magdalena and then into Arizona.  But most interstate traffic going south from Albuquerque is headed to Las Cruces or El Paso. 

Albert Lea is where the I-35 / I-90 junction is at, but the primary control city on 35N from Des Moines is Minneapolis since it's much bigger and more well-known (especially to out-of-state drivers).

And right nearby you have US380 heading east to Ruidoso and Roswell. (I know it's in San Antonio, not Socorro, but same general region.)

You also take US 380 if you're headed to Alamogordo from Albuquerque, but then you turn south onto US 54 in Carrizozo.

That being said, I think from I-25, the dual control cities on US 380 ought be Carrizozo / Roswell instead of San Antonio / Carrizozo.  And within Carrizozo, the EB control on 380 should be Roswell, 54 south should be Alamogordo, and 54 north should be Santa Rosa.  Vaughn is the junction point of three US highways (54, 60, 285); but it is way way too small to be a primary control point.  This is why I think Santa Rosa is the most logical choice for US 54 north because it's much bigger than Vaughn; and there's also the junction with I-40, with which 54 runs concurrently until Tucumcari where it splits from the interstate.  On these non-freeway US routes, I'd use the smaller towns where there are junctions with other US routes as secondary control points.

Also, I'd modify the distance sign on SB I-25 south of Socorro to read Jct. US 380, Las Cruces, El Paso.

Additionally, I would have control cities changed on certain stretches of US 285.  From Roswell, I'd change the northbound control city from Vaughn to Santa Fe.  From where 285 splits from I-25 going south, I'd dual sign Clines Corners / Roswell; then from the junction with I-40, I would change the southbound control city on US 285 to Roswell.  Besides, when 84 and 285 run concurrently with one another from Santa Fe to about a few miles north of Española, the route doesn't sign Pojoaque as a primary control city in either direction (despite there being an important junction w/ NM 502 going west to Los Alamos).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: Gnutella on April 18, 2023, 03:40:57 PM
For what it's worth, PennDOT is now using State College as a control city (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3055993,-76.830769,3a,75y,341.79h,90.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1lLW7LVK3wq6NN34kaduuw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) in Harrisburg.

Speaking of State College as a control city, here's how I'd redo the control cities on I-80...


Eastbound

Ohio state line to I-99: State College

I-99 concurrency: Williamsport/New York City

I-99 to I-81: Hazleton/New York City

I-81 to New Jersey state line: New York City


Westbound

New Jersey state line to I-380: Scranton/Wilkes-Barre

I-380 to PA 115: Wilkes-Barre/Hazleton

PA 115 to I-81: Hazleton

I-81 through I-99 concurrency: State College

I-99 to Ohio state line: Youngstown


Signs that read, | TO I-81 North | Wilkes-Barre | Scranton | FOLLOW I-80 East | should be posted on I-99 northbound half a mile before the I-80 concurrency, I-80 eastbound/I-99 northbound half a mile before the end of the concurrency, and I-180 southbound and PA 147 northbound half a mile before their junction with I-80.

Signs that read, | TO I-180 North | Williamsport | FOLLOW I-80 West | should be posted on I-80 westbound and I-81 southbound half a mile before their junction with each other.

As for Sharon, Clarion, DuBois, Bellefonte and East Stroudsburg, use them as consistent destinations on three-row mileage signs as compensation for not being used as control cities anymore. Also give New York City stand-alone mileage signs on I-80 in western Pennsylvania one mile east of the I-376, I-79, U.S. 322 and U.S. 219 junctions as reassurance until it becomes a control city at the beginning of the I-99 concurrency.

BOOM! Problem solved. :colorful:
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on April 18, 2023, 04:05:55 PM
Also Newburgh needs to replace Milford on I-84 East in PA. The two Port Jervis ramp signs on both US 6 interchanges in Pike County for I-84 East can also be Newburgh. The one in Matomoras shouldn’t be Port Jervis as US 6/209 are heading there already. The ramp to I-84 EB is not a good guide with Port Jervis there as control city. In fact the US 6/209 interchange should allso be signed for Port Jervis in addition to Matamoras on the interstate as the city is located less than 1.5 miles away after passing through Matomoras.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: HighwayStar on April 18, 2023, 05:27:31 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 14, 2023, 05:23:17 PM
I'm surprised this thread is still active as it's passion is in the Limon April Fools thread lately.

The passion of control cities knows no limits  :-D
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on April 21, 2023, 06:43:40 PM
Quote

Santa Fe would qualify as a primary under the state capitol rule.


I've seen another instance of a state capital being used as a secondary control rather than a primary; and that is Olympia, Washington.  Seattle is the primary control city on I-5 north from Portland.  And similarly on I-5 south from Seattle, Portland is the primary control city with Olympia being a secondary.  It's often the case when signing two control cities is that the secondary is on top and the primary is on the bottom (SB 5 in Seattle is dual-signed Olympia / Portland).
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: roadman65 on April 21, 2023, 06:51:29 PM
Springfield, IL is that way on interstate to interstate signing for I-55 using either Chicago or St. Louis as control cities where the IL capital is between them being secondary only on local and state highway ramps.

IL uses primary only on interstates to interstates but secondary cities on other road freeway entrances.
Title: Re: What state posts the worst control cities? The best?
Post by: MattHanson939 on April 23, 2023, 02:52:17 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 21, 2023, 06:51:29 PM
Springfield, IL is that way on interstate to interstate signing for I-55 using either Chicago or St. Louis as control cities where the IL capital is between them being secondary only on local and state highway ramps.

IL uses primary only on interstates to interstates but secondary cities on other road freeway entrances.

That's another way to sign secondary control points, not just the dual signing of secondary / primary on the interstate mainline.