What state posts the worst control cities? The best?

[Scott5114]

Or maybe it should be based on the number of famous people were born there....

There's some town in western Kansas (I think WaKeeney) that has signs along the Interstate directing traffic to "Walter Chrysler Boyhood Home". Or in other words, "exit here to see the town that Walter Chrysler made it his life's work building machines to take him as far away from as possible".

[hobsini2]

Profit is not a bad thing, but that's a discussion for another forum.

A profit motive is a form of self-interest, which is the antithesis of objective decision-making.

Scott, I don't disagree about the control cities being about prominence. That's in fact part of my point about small to medium cities that have major universities being used.

And my point is that major universities do not really add any prominence if you have no reason to interact with that university.

I doubt most people could put a pin on Stillwater, Oklahoma on a map. Hell, I doubt most people could for Norman—I still feel the need to put "Norman, OK" rather than just "Norman" in my profile—and it's the third-largest city in Oklahoma.

But Norman is still within the OKC metro. Stillwater might be far enough away but it doesn't come to the pop requirement I had for the university rule. (50k)

Do you actually think that if you pulled a random resident of Elko, Nevada, who doesn't watch football or own a paper road atlas, and dropped them in Chicago that a control city of "Lafayette" would help them find their way?

Keep in mind, most of my social circle has no clue where Joplin is, and that's in an adjoining state and has plenty of reasons that makes it a good control city.

That's very true. It may not help that person. But at the same time there's no reason why Lafayette (and other university cities like it) couldn't be a secondary control city. It doesn't even have that standing by INDOT which I think is criminal.

[Scott5114]

Works for me. I'm fine with pretty much anything being a secondary control city (even otherwise-unremarkable county seats are fine for this purpose), so long as the primary control city is present too.

[hotdogPi]

Side note: should state capitals really have that much prominence? MassDOT signs Concord NH on I-93 north (state name required to avoid confusion with the one in Massachusetts), but Manchester is both closer and larger. I would prefer Manchester to be on the signs.

[Scott5114]

Side note: should state capitals really have that much prominence? MassDOT signs Concord NH on I-93 north (state name required to avoid confusion with the one in Massachusetts), but Manchester is both closer and larger. I would prefer Manchester to be on the signs.

It sort of depends. Keep in mind that most people are required to learn all the state capitals in school, so if you ask the aforementioned non-football watching, non-map-reading person from Elko, Nevada–who I am going to name Sally–to name one city in New Hampshire, she'd probably say Concord. So Concord is probably a good way to indicate "this road goes to New Hampshire" without just signing "New Hampshire" and implying it's a good way to get to Portsmouth too.

[hobsini2]

Side note: should state capitals really have that much prominence? MassDOT signs Concord NH on I-93 north (state name required to avoid confusion with the one in Massachusetts), but Manchester is both closer and larger. I would prefer Manchester to be on the signs.

It sort of depends. Keep in mind that most people are required to learn all the state capitals in school, so if you ask the aforementioned non-football watching, non-map-reading person from Elko, Nevada–who I am going to name Sally–to name one city in New Hampshire, she'd probably say Concord. So Concord is probably a good way to indicate "this road goes to New Hampshire" without just signing "New Hampshire" and implying it's a good way to get to Portsmouth too.

Also keep in mind that there is a Manchester in Essex County Mass.

[ran4sh]

Profit is not a bad thing, but that's a discussion for another forum.

A profit motive is a form of self-interest, which is the antithesis of objective decision-making.

Is there such a thing as objective decision making for this topic, specifically, determination of control cities?

Side note: should state capitals really have that much prominence? MassDOT signs Concord NH on I-93 north (state name required to avoid confusion with the one in Massachusetts), but Manchester is both closer and larger. I would prefer Manchester to be on the signs.

It sort of depends. Keep in mind that most people are required to learn all the state capitals in school, so if you ask the aforementioned non-football watching, non-map-reading person from Elko, Nevada–who I am going to name Sally–to name one city in New Hampshire, she'd probably say Concord. So Concord is probably a good way to indicate "this road goes to New Hampshire" without just signing "New Hampshire" and implying it's a good way to get to Portsmouth too.

There's plenty of immigrants in the US that didn't go to school in this country.



As far as secondary control cities, I don't think there should be such a thing, as the FHWA/MUTCD already are trying to get states to reduce message loading, and not having secondary control cities would be a good way to meet that requirement.

[Scott5114]

There's plenty of immigrants in the US that didn't go to school in this country.



As far as secondary control cities, I don't think there should be such a thing, as the FHWA/MUTCD already are trying to get states to reduce message loading, and not having secondary control cities would be a good way to meet that requirement.

Well, if we're going to design around the fact that some people have no knowledge of geography at all, maybe we should just abolish control cities altogether. After all, they are only useful if you know where that city is.

[ran4sh]

Some states do take that approach on 3dis, and from what I have seen I disagree with that too. The road still leads somewhere, they could at least post something.

[hobsini2]

Profit is not a bad thing, but that's a discussion for another forum.

A profit motive is a form of self-interest, which is the antithesis of objective decision-making.

Is there such a thing as objective decision making for this topic, specifically, determination of control cities?

Side note: should state capitals really have that much prominence? MassDOT signs Concord NH on I-93 north (state name required to avoid confusion with the one in Massachusetts), but Manchester is both closer and larger. I would prefer Manchester to be on the signs.

It sort of depends. Keep in mind that most people are required to learn all the state capitals in school, so if you ask the aforementioned non-football watching, non-map-reading person from Elko, Nevada–who I am going to name Sally–to name one city in New Hampshire, she'd probably say Concord. So Concord is probably a good way to indicate "this road goes to New Hampshire" without just signing "New Hampshire" and implying it's a good way to get to Portsmouth too.

There's plenty of immigrants in the US that didn't go to school in this country.



As far as secondary control cities, I don't think there should be such a thing, as the FHWA/MUTCD already are trying to get states to reduce message loading, and not having secondary control cities would be a good way to meet that requirement.

Unfortunately, no there is not anything that is objective for control cities. For example, Nevada uses Elko as a primary control city on I-80.  How many people have heard of Elko as from us geography nuts? Probably not many. But because it is a halfway point between Reno and Salt Lake City, it's used. But if Elko was in say Virginia, there's no way that would be used as a primary control city. Control cities are for the most part subjective.

[JayhawkCO]

Control cities are for the most part subjective.

You say that, but post this:

I still believe that their should be a hierarchy for control cities. This would be my criteria for primary control cities eligibility. There would be exceptions to the rules:

1. Largest City or Metro Area in the state.
2. Capital City
3. City over 100k that is more than 50 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 50k that has a Division 1 Football University or College AND is more than 50 miles from the previous rules.
5. Tourist destinations that get over 500k visitors a year. that are 25 miles from a previous rule. So this would be places like Wisconsin Dells and Pigeon Forge.
6. City over 20k that is more than 150 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
7. City over 10k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

Secondary Control Cities:
1. City over 50k
2. Suburban satellite cities that are 25 miles or more from the Downtown of a metro area. This would include places like Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora and Joliet for Chicago.
3. City over 25k that is more than 50 miles from previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 10k that is more than 100 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
5. City over 5k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

[tdindy88]

I'm wondering what the worst control city in Michigan is now. Don't say Mackinac Bridge either because that is probably one of the best ones.

What about Clare?

[hobsini2]

Control cities are for the most part subjective.

You say that, but post this:

I still believe that their should be a hierarchy for control cities. This would be my criteria for primary control cities eligibility. There would be exceptions to the rules:

1. Largest City or Metro Area in the state.
2. Capital City
3. City over 100k that is more than 50 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 50k that has a Division 1 Football University or College AND is more than 50 miles from the previous rules.
5. Tourist destinations that get over 500k visitors a year. that are 25 miles from a previous rule. So this would be places like Wisconsin Dells and Pigeon Forge.
6. City over 20k that is more than 150 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
7. City over 10k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

Secondary Control Cities:
1. City over 50k
2. Suburban satellite cities that are 25 miles or more from the Downtown of a metro area. This would include places like Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora and Joliet for Chicago.
3. City over 25k that is more than 50 miles from previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 10k that is more than 100 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
5. City over 5k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

They are subjective CURRENTLY.  The hierarchy was an idea to make things more objective.

[JayhawkCO]

Control cities are for the most part subjective.

You say that, but post this:

I still believe that their should be a hierarchy for control cities. This would be my criteria for primary control cities eligibility. There would be exceptions to the rules:

1. Largest City or Metro Area in the state.
2. Capital City
3. City over 100k that is more than 50 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 50k that has a Division 1 Football University or College AND is more than 50 miles from the previous rules.
5. Tourist destinations that get over 500k visitors a year. that are 25 miles from a previous rule. So this would be places like Wisconsin Dells and Pigeon Forge.
6. City over 20k that is more than 150 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
7. City over 10k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

Secondary Control Cities:
1. City over 50k
2. Suburban satellite cities that are 25 miles or more from the Downtown of a metro area. This would include places like Waukegan, Elgin, Aurora and Joliet for Chicago.
3. City over 25k that is more than 50 miles from previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
4. City over 10k that is more than 100 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.
5. City over 5k that is more than 200 miles from the previous rules or is at the terminus of the interstate.

They are subjective CURRENTLY.  The hierarchy was an idea to make things more objective.

Sorry. Misunderstood you.

[Flint1979]

I'm wondering what the worst control city in Michigan is now. Don't say Mackinac Bridge either because that is probably one of the best ones.

What about Clare?

Kind of a random one but the junction of US-10 and 127 and the southern end of M-115 makes it kind of a junction. But I guess one of them has the be the worst lol.

[hobsini2]

So maybe there should be a tiered list per state of what would be considered good control cities.

[hbelkins]

I think I would make the opposite argument. Population is a good indicator of prominence, but not population of the city proper. Population of the urbanized area, or metropolitan area, or media market. Anything where the actual measure is standardized to be applied the same everywhere rather than being subject to local political whims (as city limits are).

I'll disagree.  Let's say hypothetically there is an interstate from City A (5 million) to City B (5 million) and those two cities are 600 miles apart. Between them, there is only one town, Town C, which has 50,000 people, and it's halfway between the two. I would certainly sign Town C as a control city because it's prominence is high, not its population.

Does Town C serve as a major crossroads or traffic decision point? If so, then it makes a good control city. If not, skip it and go directly from A to B.

[ran4sh]

Crossroad locations are how we get control cities like Benson NC, Hazleton PA, etc

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Crossroad locations are how we get control cities like Benson NC, Hazleton PA, etc

And Albert Lea, which is really not a worthwhile control from Minneapolis because little long-haul traffic is going to be shifting from I-35 to I-90 there.

[ran4sh]

Crossroad locations are how we get control cities like Benson NC, Hazleton PA, etc

And Albert Lea, which is really not a worthwhile control from Minneapolis because little long-haul traffic is going to be shifting from I-35 to I-90 there.

Even if there were enough traffic shifting to the other route, that would justify considering off-route destinations as the control city, not the crossroad location itself. E.g. for I-95 north in NC, use Raleigh instead of Benson, because of the traffic that exits to I-40 west.

[kirbykart]

Crossroad locations are how we get control cities like Benson NC, Hazleton PA, etc

PA would probably still sign Hazleton even if it wasn't a major crossroads. 

[Flint1979]

I think Michigan's are all fine so for Interstate highways and US highways this is how I would do it and Michigan does it basically the same.

I-69: Port Huron, Flint, Lansing, Fort Wayne (that's how it's signed and it's fine all the way through).

I-75: Toledo, Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, Mackinac Bridge, Sault Ste. Marie, St. Ignace (this one is fine too. St. Ignace is used in Sault Ste. Marie before Mackinac Bridge takes over before getting to St. Ignace).

I-94: Port Huron, Detroit, Kalamazoo, Chicago. (I added Kalamazoo for a primary control city, it is the halfway point between Detroit and Chicago). Kalamazoo is an urban area of almost 200,000 and makes more sense than anything between there and Detroit including Ann Arbor, even though not really a part of Metro Detroit it's rather close to Detroit. It'd be like signing Pontiac on I-75 instead of Flint.

I-96: Muskegon, Grand Rapids, Lansing, Detroit. (Nothing changes here).

US-2: St. Ignace, Manistique, Escanaba, Iron Mountain, Florence, WI, Crystal Falls, MI, Ironwood.

US-8: Nothing.

US-10: Bay City, Midland, Clare, Reed City, Baldwin, Ludington.

US-12: Detroit, Ypsilanti, Saline, Jonesville, Coldwater, Sturgis, Niles, New Buffalo.

US-23: Toledo, Ann Arbor, Flint, Saginaw, Mackinac Bridge (when concurrent with I-75 for Saginaw and the bridge), Standish/Alpena (at the northern terminus of the concurrency), Alpena by itself whenever there needs to be a control city, then Mackinaw City.

US-24: Waterford, Southfield, Monroe, Toledo.

US-31: South Bend, Benton Harbor, Holland, Grand Haven, Muskegon, Ludington, Manistee, Traverse City, Charlevoix, Petoskey, Mackinaw City.

US-41: Menominee, Escanaba, Marquette, Houghton, Copper Harbor.

US-45: Ontonagon, Watersmeet, Eagle River, WI.

US-127: Nothing south of Hudson to the Ohio line, Hudson, Jackson, Lansing, Mount Pleasant, Mackinac Bridge.

US-131: Indiana Toll Road, Three Rivers, Kalamazoo, Grand Rapids, Cadillac, Petoskey.

US-141: Green Bay, WI, Iron Mountain, same as US-2 to Crystal Falls, Houghton.

US-223: Jackson, Adrian, Toledo.

I-194: DOWNTOWN Battle Creek, Sturgis.

I-196: Benton Harbor, Holland, Grand Rapids.

I-275: Toledo, Plymouth, Lansing,

I-296: I'll skip this one.

I-375: DOWNTOWN, Flint.

I-475: DOWNTOWN Flint, Saginaw, Detroit.

I-496: DOWNTOWN Lansing, Detroit/Jackson, Grand Rapids/Fort Wayne.

I-675: DOWNTOWN Saginaw, Mackinac Bridge, Flint.

I-696: Port Huron, Lansing.


I didn't change much but did make a few minor changes.

[CoreySamson]

Sort of surprised we got through 8 pages of the thread without a tier list, so here is one with the states I know of first

A+ - Consistent larger cities as controls on both long-distance interstates and US/SR freeways/expressways
- Michigan
- Washington

A - Consistent control cities for larger cities or junction points on long-distance interstates, but fails on the US/SR freeways/expressways
- Indiana InDOT
- Kentucky
- Ohio ODOT
- PTC

B - Mostly posts larger cities on long-distance interstates, with a bit of inconsistency here and there
- Missouri

C - Same as B, but also sneak in some non-city control cities in locations that doesn't make sense
- California ("other Desert Cities)
- Illinois ("Iowa" on I-80. "Indiana" and "Wisconsin" on I-90/94 makes sense though)
- ITR ("Ohio" when most of the ITR isn't even part of the fastest route from Chicago to Cincinnati or Columbus)
- ISTHA (directional suburbs)
- Massachusetts ("NH/Maine")
- New Hampshire ("All Maine Points")

D - Posts too many small towns that your average driver never heard of on interstates, doesn't post out of state control cities unless absolutely necessary
- New Mexico
- Pennsylvania PennDOT

F - Lacks control cities in a lot of places
- OTA ("Thru Traffic")

I would put Texas and Louisiana in A or B personally. They're pretty solid on interstates other than a couple slip ups (Gainesville on I-35 for Texas, Bay St. Louis on I-10 for Louisiana, among others).

[Roadgeekteen]

Sort of surprised we got through 8 pages of the thread without a tier list, so here is one with the states I know of first

A+ - Consistent larger cities as controls on both long-distance interstates and US/SR freeways/expressways
- Michigan
- Washington

A - Consistent control cities for larger cities or junction points on long-distance interstates, but fails on the US/SR freeways/expressways
- Indiana InDOT
- Kentucky
- Ohio ODOT
- PTC

B - Mostly posts larger cities on long-distance interstates, with a bit of inconsistency here and there
- Missouri

C - Same as B, but also sneak in some non-city control cities in locations that doesn't make sense
- California ("other Desert Cities)
- Illinois ("Iowa" on I-80. "Indiana" and "Wisconsin" on I-90/94 makes sense though)
- ITR ("Ohio" when most of the ITR isn't even part of the fastest route from Chicago to Cincinnati or Columbus)
- ISTHA (directional suburbs)
- Massachusetts ("NH/Maine")
- New Hampshire ("All Maine Points")

D - Posts too many small towns that your average driver never heard of on interstates, doesn't post out of state control cities unless absolutely necessary
- New Mexico
- Pennsylvania PennDOT

F - Lacks control cities in a lot of places
- OTA ("Thru Traffic")

I would put Texas and Louisiana in A or B personally. They're pretty solid on interstates other than a couple slip ups (Gainesville on I-35 for Texas, Bay St. Louis on I-10 for Louisiana, among others).

I don't love Denton or Van Horn as control cities.

[ethanhopkin14]

Sort of surprised we got through 8 pages of the thread without a tier list, so here is one with the states I know of first

A+ - Consistent larger cities as controls on both long-distance interstates and US/SR freeways/expressways
- Michigan
- Washington

A - Consistent control cities for larger cities or junction points on long-distance interstates, but fails on the US/SR freeways/expressways
- Indiana InDOT
- Kentucky
- Ohio ODOT
- PTC

B - Mostly posts larger cities on long-distance interstates, with a bit of inconsistency here and there
- Missouri

C - Same as B, but also sneak in some non-city control cities in locations that doesn't make sense
- California ("other Desert Cities)
- Illinois ("Iowa" on I-80. "Indiana" and "Wisconsin" on I-90/94 makes sense though)
- ITR ("Ohio" when most of the ITR isn't even part of the fastest route from Chicago to Cincinnati or Columbus)
- ISTHA (directional suburbs)
- Massachusetts ("NH/Maine")
- New Hampshire ("All Maine Points")

D - Posts too many small towns that your average driver never heard of on interstates, doesn't post out of state control cities unless absolutely necessary
- New Mexico
- Pennsylvania PennDOT

F - Lacks control cities in a lot of places
- OTA ("Thru Traffic")

I would put Texas and Louisiana in A or B personally. They’re pretty solid on interstates other than a couple slip ups (Gainesville on I-35 for Texas, Bay St. Louis on I-10 for Louisiana, among others).

I don't love Denton or Van Horn as control cities.

Van Horn shows up on a few signs, but isn't a true control city.  I don't like it either.

Denton makes sense.  It a large enough city with two universities and the junction of the I-35 split.