What state posts the worst control cities? The best?

[JayhawkCO]

The other reason US highways tend to heavily use in-state control cities is because many (if not most) long-distance travelers use the interstates more often.

Only if your state is like NC and goes slap happy with interstate shields that all the major US route freeways are future interstates. Otherwise, there's lots of examples of US or state route expressways/freeways used as part of long distance trips, like US 35 east of Dayton I mentioned earlier.

I mean, we don't really have US route freeways out west outside of cities

Pretty much US101 in California and US395 in Washington, yeah?

[ethanhopkin14]

The other reason US highways tend to heavily use in-state control cities is because many (if not most) long-distance travelers use the interstates more often.

Only if your state is like NC and goes slap happy with interstate shields that all the major US route freeways are future interstates. Otherwise, there’s lots of examples of US or state route expressways/freeways used as part of long distance trips, like US 35 east of Dayton I mentioned earlier.

I mean, we don’t really have US route freeways out west outside of cities

We have some in Texas, but they are either A) not long enough to make them apart of long range travel or B) annoying freeways downgraded to expressways.

The other thing about Texas is it causes you to redefine a road trip.  It hard for me to call intra-Texas travel as a long road trip, but it is for a lot of people.  I can drive to El Paso from here and it be about 600 miles.  All that to say we have many trips in state that cannot be reached with interstates so, like it or not, you are going to have to use US or state highways in all their divided expressway, 4-lane undivided and 2 laned glory!  This might be where small control cities start to annoy.  You are driving from Austin to Lubbock, say, and instead of just one or two headings, you get a million.  You just have to know where you are going out here because there are so many highways cris-crossing making so many options. 

It also takes a long time to drive in state... And people wonder why Texas wants so many interstates....

This subject takes me back to I-69.  It is currently signed as a US Highway with and Interstate shield slapped on it, instead of the way interstates are normally signed.  Most of this has to do with most of the I-69 (E, W, C, 369) signed sections are in urban areas that get different treatment when signing even on normal interstates.  Where I am going with that is how long, and of course this is contingent on how long it takes to finish I-69 in Texas, will it take for Cleveland to be replaced with Shreveport for I-69 north of downtown Houston and Victoria to be replaced with Victoria/Corpus Christi south of downtown Houston.  Seeing how those are US-59 control cities they shouldn't persist once the interstate is completed.  Maybe they stay for the life of the sign?  Lets say it takes 20 years to finish I-69 from Cleveland to the Louisiana/Texas State Line, but the signs with Cleveland, Lufkin and Nacogdoches still have an extra 5 years left on them then.  Will they remain until their lifespan is up or be replaced with more "interstate" worthy control city signs?

[Scott5114]

No. None of those should be control cities. I'm not a football fan, so my association with them is, in order,

1) Where?
2) I have heard of this place but have no idea where in Alabama it is
3) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Oklahoma City
4) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Austin
5) Isn't that where the Secretary of Transportation is from?

Lafayette IN - Purdue Univ, about halfway between Indianapolis and Gary on I-65
Tuscaloosa AL - U of Alabama, halfway between Birmingham and Meridian on I-20/59
Gainesville FL - U of Florida, 2 hours north of Tampa on I-75
Waco TX - Baylor Univ, halfway between Dallas and Austin on I-35
South Bend IN - U of Notre Dame, 80 miles east of Chicago on I-80/90

The fact that you feel the need to post this list is why this would be a bad way to choose control cities. If you have to define a town as "between Indianapolis and Gary" for me to know where it is, why not just sign Indianapolis and Gary?

It hard for me to call inter-Texas travel as a long road trip, but it is for a lot of people.  I can drive to El Paso from here and it be about 600 miles. 

Lord help us if there's more than one Texas to travel between now...

(Yeah, I know you meant intra-Texas. )

[Flint1979]

Hands down Michigan has the best control cities of them all. I especially like Grand Radips.

[ethanhopkin14]

No. None of those should be control cities. I'm not a football fan, so my association with them is, in order,

1) Where?
2) I have heard of this place but have no idea where in Alabama it is
3) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Oklahoma City
4) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Austin
5) Isn't that where the Secretary of Transportation is from?

Lafayette IN - Purdue Univ, about halfway between Indianapolis and Gary on I-65
Tuscaloosa AL - U of Alabama, halfway between Birmingham and Meridian on I-20/59
Gainesville FL - U of Florida, 2 hours north of Tampa on I-75
Waco TX - Baylor Univ, halfway between Dallas and Austin on I-35
South Bend IN - U of Notre Dame, 80 miles east of Chicago on I-80/90

The fact that you feel the need to post this list is why this would be a bad way to choose control cities. If you have to define a town as "between Indianapolis and Gary" for me to know where it is, why not just sign Indianapolis and Gary?

It hard for me to call inter-Texas travel as a long road trip, but it is for a lot of people.  I can drive to El Paso from here and it be about 600 miles. 

Lord help us if there's more than one Texas to travel between now...

(Yeah, I know you meant intra-Texas. )

Corrected.

[SkyPesos]

Sort of surprised we got through 8 pages of the thread without a tier list, so here is one with the states I know of first

A+ - Consistent larger cities as controls on both long-distance interstates and US/SR freeways/expressways
- Michigan
- Washington

A - Consistent control cities for larger cities or junction points on long-distance interstates, but fails on the US/SR freeways/expressways
- Indiana InDOT
- Kentucky
- Ohio ODOT
- PTC

B - Mostly posts larger cities on long-distance interstates, with a bit of inconsistency here and there
- Missouri

C - Same as B, but also sneak in some non-city control cities in locations that doesn't make sense
- California ("other Desert Cities)
- Illinois ("Iowa" on I-80. "Indiana" and "Wisconsin" on I-90/94 makes sense though)
- ITR ("Ohio" when most of the ITR isn't even part of the fastest route from Chicago to Cincinnati or Columbus)
- ISTHA (directional suburbs)
- Massachusetts ("NH/Maine")
- New Hampshire ("All Maine Points")

D - Posts too many small towns that your average driver never heard of on interstates, doesn't post out of state control cities unless absolutely necessary
- New Mexico
- Pennsylvania PennDOT

F - Lacks control cities in a lot of places
- OTA ("Thru Traffic")

[hobsini2]

No. None of those should be control cities. I'm not a football fan, so my association with them is, in order,

1) Where?
2) I have heard of this place but have no idea where in Alabama it is
3) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Oklahoma City
4) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Austin
5) Isn't that where the Secretary of Transportation is from?

Lafayette IN - Purdue Univ, about halfway between Indianapolis and Gary on I-65
Tuscaloosa AL - U of Alabama, halfway between Birmingham and Meridian on I-20/59
Gainesville FL - U of Florida, 2 hours north of Tampa on I-75
Waco TX - Baylor Univ, halfway between Dallas and Austin on I-35
South Bend IN - U of Notre Dame, 80 miles east of Chicago on I-80/90

The fact that you feel the need to post this list is why this would be a bad way to choose control cities. If you have to define a town as "between Indianapolis and Gary" for me to know where it is, why not just sign Indianapolis and Gary?

It hard for me to call inter-Texas travel as a long road trip, but it is for a lot of people.  I can drive to El Paso from here and it be about 600 miles. 

Lord help us if there's more than one Texas to travel between now...

(Yeah, I know you meant intra-Texas. )

Scott, you specifically said "Where?" in response to Lafayette IN. I don't know if you were playing dumb or not but I gave you an answer. Lafayette and West Lafayette have 125k in the 2 cities and 200k metro. This would make it bigger than Lawton in your homestate which is a control city on 44. Plus the fact the city has a major university does make Lafayette an important city both in Indiana and regionally in the Midwest.

[ran4sh]

Sort of surprised we got through 8 pages of the thread without a tier list, so here is one with the states I know of first

A+ - Consistent larger cities as controls on both long-distance interstates and US/SR freeways/expressways
- Michigan
- Washington

A - Consistent control cities for larger cities or junction points on long-distance interstates, but fails on the US/SR freeways/expressways
- Indiana InDOT
- Kentucky
- Ohio ODOT
- PTC

B - Mostly posts larger cities on long-distance interstates, with a bit of inconsistency here and there
- Missouri

C - Same as B, but also sneak in some non-city control cities in locations that doesn't make sense
- California ("other Desert Cities)
- Illinois ("Iowa" on I-80. "Indiana" and "Wisconsin" on I-90/94 makes sense though)
- ITR ("Ohio" when most of the ITR isn't even part of the fastest route from Chicago to Cincinnati or Columbus)
- ISTHA (directional suburbs)
- Massachusetts ("NH/Maine")
- New Hampshire ("All Maine Points")

D - Posts too many small towns that your average driver never heard of on interstates, doesn't post out of state control cities unless absolutely necessary
- New Mexico
- Pennsylvania PennDOT

F - Lacks control cities in a lot of places
- OTA ("Thru Traffic")

For states I am familiar with:

Georgia gets an A or B, the Interstate control cities are generally good, we don't really have long-distance US/SR expressways, but US/SR non-expressways tend to have shorter-distance control cities (which is acceptable). I like that Georgia uses Birmingham for I-59 SB, when in Alabama they would use Gadsden. The main disagreement I have with GA is that for I-95 north of Savannah, Florence is always posted with "SC", when in general I disagree with including the state when it's not ambiguous.

South Carolina gets an A, similar to Georgia. I do think that Charleston could be a control city from I-95 though (and to a lesser extent, Columbia for NB I-95)

North Carolina gets, I guess, a "D+", they use too many small towns, but they don't necessarily avoid using out-of-state control cities.

[MattHanson939]

Only if your state is like NC and goes slap happy with interstate shields that all the major US route freeways are future interstates. Otherwise, there's lots of examples of US or state route expressways/freeways used as part of long distance trips, like US 35 east of Dayton I mentioned earlier.

New Mexico only has like three non-interstate freeways:

- NM 423 (Paseo del Norte) in Albuquerque is a freeway (though not built to interstate standards) from Coors Blvd. to I-25
- US 84/285 from Santa Fe to Pojoaque
- US 70 from Las Cruces to Organ
- I even read rumors that NMDOT plans to upgrade the NM 599 bypass around Santa Fe to a full freeway.


Unlike North Carolina, New Mexico is not going to designate their non-interstate freeways as future interstates.

I mean, we don't really have US route freeways out west outside of cities


Pretty much US101 in California and US395 in Washington, yeah?

Exactly.

[Scott5114]

No. None of those should be control cities. I'm not a football fan, so my association with them is, in order,

1) Where?
2) I have heard of this place but have no idea where in Alabama it is
3) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Oklahoma City
4) The only reason this is a control city is because TxDOT is too much of a little bitch to sign Austin
5) Isn't that where the Secretary of Transportation is from?

Lafayette IN - Purdue Univ, about halfway between Indianapolis and Gary on I-65
Tuscaloosa AL - U of Alabama, halfway between Birmingham and Meridian on I-20/59
Gainesville FL - U of Florida, 2 hours north of Tampa on I-75
Waco TX - Baylor Univ, halfway between Dallas and Austin on I-35
South Bend IN - U of Notre Dame, 80 miles east of Chicago on I-80/90

The fact that you feel the need to post this list is why this would be a bad way to choose control cities. If you have to define a town as "between Indianapolis and Gary" for me to know where it is, why not just sign Indianapolis and Gary?

It hard for me to call inter-Texas travel as a long road trip, but it is for a lot of people.  I can drive to El Paso from here and it be about 600 miles. 

Lord help us if there's more than one Texas to travel between now...

(Yeah, I know you meant intra-Texas. )

Scott, you specifically said "Where?" in response to Lafayette IN. I don't know if you were playing dumb or not but I gave you an answer. Lafayette and West Lafayette have 125k in the 2 cities and 200k metro. This would make it bigger than Lawton in your homestate which is a control city on 44. Plus the fact the city has a major university does make Lafayette an important city both in Indiana and regionally in the Midwest.

And? Control cities are about prominence, not population. There are 70 cities in California bigger than Lawton, but that doesn't mean they all need to be control cities, because they're frankly not that significant in the grand scheme of things. I'd have the same problems with Lancaster, Concord, Downey, or West Covina–despite those cities having 100,000+ population only those with a firm grasp on California geography will be able to place them, and if you can do that you don't need a sign to tell you where to go. And I would hope you don't think that Victorville needs to be a control city on I-15.

Edit to add: { As for Lawton, that's there because it's a dire warning to anyone who chooses not to exit I-44 that they'll end up in Lawton it's the largest city in the entire southwest quadrant of the state. And the only other option for a control city would be Wichita Falls, which is 1) confusing because northbound I-35 uses Wichita coming out of Oklahoma City and 2) barely any larger than Lawton is. }

Fact of the matter is, college football is a terrible way to decide control cities, because nobody knows or cares about those cities other than people that watch college football. Which is a minority of people.

[JayhawkCO]

prominence

I'm going to start using this term in all of my control city discussions. I use it all the time when it comes to mountains, but I never really thought of it in terms of cities.

[ran4sh]

I think I would make the opposite argument. Population is a good indicator of prominence, but not population of the city proper. Population of the urbanized area, or metropolitan area, or media market. Anything where the actual measure is standardized to be applied the same everywhere rather than being subject to local political whims (as city limits are).

[JayhawkCO]

I think I would make the opposite argument. Population is a good indicator of prominence, but not population of the city proper. Population of the urbanized area, or metropolitan area, or media market. Anything where the actual measure is standardized to be applied the same everywhere rather than being subject to local political whims (as city limits are).

I'll disagree.  Let's say hypothetically there is an interstate from City A (5 million) to City B (5 million) and those two cities are 600 miles apart. Between them, there is only one town, Town C, which has 50,000 people, and it's halfway between the two. I would certainly sign Town C as a control city because it's prominence is high, not its population.

[Scott5114]

prominence

I'm going to start using this term in all of my control city discussions. I use it all the time when it comes to mountains, but I never really thought of it in terms of cities.

It's a good analogy, for the same reasons it's used when it comes to mountains.

[hobsini2]

Scott, I don't disagree about the control cities being about prominence. That's in fact part of my point about small to medium cities that have major universities being used.

As for those California cities you mentioned, all part of a bigger metro area. Lancaster may be the one exception to that because it is more of a city on its own. And no I would not use Victorville. Barstow and San Bernardino are close enough to each other.

[Flint1979]

I'm wondering what the worst control city in Michigan is now. Don't say Mackinac Bridge either because that is probably one of the best ones.

[Scott5114]

Scott, I don't disagree about the control cities being about prominence. That's in fact part of my point about small to medium cities that have major universities being used.

And my point is that major universities do not really add any prominence if you have no reason to interact with that university.

I doubt most people could put a pin on Stillwater, Oklahoma on a map. Hell, I doubt most people could for Norman–I still feel the need to put "Norman, OK" rather than just "Norman" in my profile–and it's the third-largest city in Oklahoma.

[ran4sh]

I think I would make the opposite argument. Population is a good indicator of prominence, but not population of the city proper. Population of the urbanized area, or metropolitan area, or media market. Anything where the actual measure is standardized to be applied the same everywhere rather than being subject to local political whims (as city limits are).

I'll disagree.  Let's say hypothetically there is an interstate from City A (5 million) to City B (5 million) and those two cities are 600 miles apart. Between them, there is only one town, Town C, which has 50,000 people, and it's halfway between the two. I would certainly sign Town C as a control city because it's prominence is high, not its population.

If it's the largest town for 600 miles then most likely it has its own media market, which I specifically listed as one of the indicators of prominence.

I notice that in the West the media markets often cover whole states, so in that area we could focus on other criteria such as urbanized area population.

But in the end a control city exists to guide motorists, so the real question is, out of long-distance traffic departing city A, are more of them going to city B or to town C. That is what should really be used to determine control cities in edge cases.

[Scott5114]

I think I would make the opposite argument. Population is a good indicator of prominence, but not population of the city proper. Population of the urbanized area, or metropolitan area, or media market. Anything where the actual measure is standardized to be applied the same everywhere rather than being subject to local political whims (as city limits are).

I'll disagree.  Let's say hypothetically there is an interstate from City A (5 million) to City B (5 million) and those two cities are 600 miles apart. Between them, there is only one town, Town C, which has 50,000 people, and it's halfway between the two. I would certainly sign Town C as a control city because it's prominence is high, not its population.

If it's the largest town for 600 miles then most likely it has its own media market, which I specifically listed as one of the indicators of prominence.

What is with everyone wanting to rope for-profit entities into control city choice? It will have a media market if the media companies think that will make them more money. It is an indicator of nothing but that.

[ran4sh]

Profit is not a bad thing, but that's a discussion for another forum.

[JayhawkCO]

I think I would make the opposite argument. Population is a good indicator of prominence, but not population of the city proper. Population of the urbanized area, or metropolitan area, or media market. Anything where the actual measure is standardized to be applied the same everywhere rather than being subject to local political whims (as city limits are).

I'll disagree.  Let's say hypothetically there is an interstate from City A (5 million) to City B (5 million) and those two cities are 600 miles apart. Between them, there is only one town, Town C, which has 50,000 people, and it's halfway between the two. I would certainly sign Town C as a control city because it's prominence is high, not its population.

If it's the largest town for 600 miles then most likely it has its own media market, which I specifically listed as one of the indicators of prominence.

It's not the largest city for 600 miles, but should Glendive, MT be a control city on I-94? It has its own media market.

[hobsini2]

Scott, I don't disagree about the control cities being about prominence. That's in fact part of my point about small to medium cities that have major universities being used.

And my point is that major universities do not really add any prominence if you have no reason to interact with that university.

I doubt most people could put a pin on Stillwater, Oklahoma on a map. Hell, I doubt most people could for Norman–I still feel the need to put "Norman, OK" rather than just "Norman" in my profile–and it's the third-largest city in Oklahoma.

But Norman is still within the OKC metro. Stillwater might be far enough away but it doesn't come to the pop requirement I had for the university rule. (50k)

[ran4sh]

I think I would make the opposite argument. Population is a good indicator of prominence, but not population of the city proper. Population of the urbanized area, or metropolitan area, or media market. Anything where the actual measure is standardized to be applied the same everywhere rather than being subject to local political whims (as city limits are).

I'll disagree.  Let's say hypothetically there is an interstate from City A (5 million) to City B (5 million) and those two cities are 600 miles apart. Between them, there is only one town, Town C, which has 50,000 people, and it's halfway between the two. I would certainly sign Town C as a control city because it's prominence is high, not its population.

If it's the largest town for 600 miles then most likely it has its own media market, which I specifically listed as one of the indicators of prominence.

It's not the largest city for 600 miles, but should Glendive, MT be a control city on I-94? It has its own media market.

Yes. But tbh I'm more concerned with selection of control cities in the more populated regions of the country. I'm not going to change my overall ideas about control cities because of one specific case in one of the least populated states.

[Scott5114]

Profit is not a bad thing, but that's a discussion for another forum.

A profit motive is a form of self-interest, which is the antithesis of objective decision-making.

Scott, I don't disagree about the control cities being about prominence. That's in fact part of my point about small to medium cities that have major universities being used.

And my point is that major universities do not really add any prominence if you have no reason to interact with that university.

I doubt most people could put a pin on Stillwater, Oklahoma on a map. Hell, I doubt most people could for Norman–I still feel the need to put "Norman, OK" rather than just "Norman" in my profile–and it's the third-largest city in Oklahoma.

But Norman is still within the OKC metro. Stillwater might be far enough away but it doesn't come to the pop requirement I had for the university rule. (50k)

Do you actually think that if you pulled a random resident of Elko, Nevada, who doesn't watch football or own a paper road atlas, and dropped them in Chicago that a control city of "Lafayette" would help them find their way?

Keep in mind, most of my social circle has no clue where Joplin is, and that's in an adjoining state and has plenty of reasons that makes it a good control city.

[ethanhopkin14]

Profit is not a bad thing, but that's a discussion for another forum.

A profit motive is a form of self-interest, which is the antithesis of objective decision-making.

Scott, I don't disagree about the control cities being about prominence. That's in fact part of my point about small to medium cities that have major universities being used.

And my point is that major universities do not really add any prominence if you have no reason to interact with that university.

I doubt most people could put a pin on Stillwater, Oklahoma on a map. Hell, I doubt most people could for Norman–I still feel the need to put "Norman, OK" rather than just "Norman" in my profile–and it's the third-largest city in Oklahoma.

But Norman is still within the OKC metro. Stillwater might be far enough away but it doesn't come to the pop requirement I had for the university rule. (50k)

Do you actually think that if you pulled a random resident of Elko, Nevada, who doesn't watch football or own a paper road atlas, and dropped them in Chicago that a control city of "Lafayette" would help them find their way?

Keep in mind, most of my social circle has no clue where Joplin is, and that's in an adjoining state and has plenty of reasons that makes it a good control city.

I think control cities should be based on if a town has a Walmart or not.  At least three Walmarts, mega control city.

Or maybe it should be based on the number of famous people were born there....