Which state has the BEST overall highway/freeway connectivity?

Started by webny99, March 07, 2023, 08:15:03 PM

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Roadgeekteen

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 08, 2023, 12:31:40 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 07, 2023, 10:02:05 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 07, 2023, 09:56:36 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 07, 2023, 09:33:09 PM
California for as much grief it gets during modern times has a bunch of random freeways in places one wouldn't likely expect to find them.  There is stuff like full interchanges in cities like Porterville (CA 65/CA 190) and Super Twos (CA 255 and CA 108 in Sonora) which pop into existence removed from other freeways.

California also has more people than any other state, and more area than all but 2 other states. It should have an excellent freeway network but it is a disaster instead.

You sure about that?  There is more random freeways than anywhere in the country.  Those cities I listed aren't exactly large nor in the major population centers.  A Porterville sized city in most states isn't getting two freeways many other places in the country.

Random is the problem. Where California needs more freeways they don't have them. Having them in random locations is not helpful.
Where does California need more freeways?
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5


Max Rockatansky

#26
^^^

Lots of places, there is a crap ton of shelved freeways.  All the same, there is a crap ton of existing freeways outside the Interstate system.  All the same, I can't think of many states that literally tried to turn almost all their urban state highways into freeways.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 08, 2023, 12:31:40 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 07, 2023, 10:02:05 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 07, 2023, 09:56:36 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 07, 2023, 09:33:09 PM
California for as much grief it gets during modern times has a bunch of random freeways in places one wouldn't likely expect to find them.  There is stuff like full interchanges in cities like Porterville (CA 65/CA 190) and Super Twos (CA 255 and CA 108 in Sonora) which pop into existence removed from other freeways.

California also has more people than any other state, and more area than all but 2 other states. It should have an excellent freeway network but it is a disaster instead.

You sure about that?  There is more random freeways than anywhere in the country.  Those cities I listed aren't exactly large nor in the major population centers.  A Porterville sized city in most states isn't getting two freeways many other places in the country.

Random is the problem. Where California needs more freeways they don't have them. Having them in random locations is not helpful.

Works perfectly fine instances like Lemoore-Hanford on CA 198 especially when the eastern half is bridged by four lane expressway.  US 101 has numerous isolated freeway segments between Los Angeles and San Jose that are adequately bridged by expressway segments.   Probably goes more to show you don't know a ton about the State Highway System given I'm reeling off a ton examples and you haven't cited why. 

Bickendan

#27
Oregon isn't great, especially with Bend and Redmond being isolated from the Interstates.

West Bengal is very difficult to comment on as I've only been to Kolkata, and the maps are deceptive on what is grade separated facilities and not (turns out Kolkata has an interesting freeway grade facility continuing east from the Kona Expressway as the Maa Flyover, connecting to the Eastern Metropolitan Bypass), but the lack of easy connection north through the neck between Bangladesh, the state of Bihar, and Nepal up to Siliguri and Darjeeling brings West Bengal down.
The rail network might make up for it, but I'm not versed in it, sadly.
However, a major expressway from Kolkata toward Lucknow is in planning stages.

ilpt4u

Quote from: thspfc on March 07, 2023, 09:06:19 PM
Illinois has Interstates everywhere. 64, 70, 72, 74, 80, 88, and 90 all crisscross the state. It makes sense that IL has a lot, being !flat!, in the middle of the country, with a huge city that is one of the nation's biggest transportation hubs.
No mention of the N-S Interstates that connect Chicago to the rest of the state (55, 57, and 94 which is N-S in IL) and then the 2 that don't directly connect to Chicago: 39 and 24 (24 is also mostly N-S in IL, and is one of those few NW-SE Interstates that tend to be lacking)

The glaring holes in IL's system, are US 20 west of Rockford out to Freeport and Galena (one part of the state that is NOT flat), Macomb/home of Western IL University, is not connected well to the Interstate system, tho it is on the so-called Chicago-KC Expressway/IL 110. A more direct Peoria-Chicago route would be nice, but it isn't going to happen. Somewhat selfishly, the Southwest Illinois Connector could/would be nice should it ultimately be built for those of us in SW IL to improve connectivity to St Louis and the Metro East. Getting Jacksonville a four lane divided US 67 all the way to IL 255 and/or to Alton and the MS River Bridge would also help its connectivity to St Louis

Pretty much all of these holes have been looked at, studied, somewhat improved, etc, but still have room for improvement

MultiMillionMiler

I agree that California doesn't have many freeways where you need them, but I think Los Angeles has a very good interconnecting freeway grid. Same with Dallas and Houston, tons of freeways, (Houston almost has 3 beltways) Compared to other major cities, like NY, most of the city is accessible by freeways.

US 89

Utah is meh. The freeway coverage is pretty good in the northern and central Wasatch Front, but Utah County and the southern half of Salt Lake County are definitely underserved (an east-west freeway somewhere around 10600 South would do wonders but is never ever happening, and Utah County has no freeways at all not named I-15).

The interstates do hit most of the bigger cities and towns. Logan is the only metro not on a freeway, and it maybe could do with a higher standard connection to I-15, but US 91 at least is four lanes. What really should be four lanes is US 6 from I-15 to I-70, as this is a critical connection from SLC and the Pacific Northwest to points southeast as well as an alternate route to Denver. To be fair, there are plenty of places in the mountains where this would be difficult, but there's really no reason it isn't four lanes everywhere east of Price. Would also be nice to see US 191 fully four-laned from I-70 to Moab, which seems like it should be easy but isn't anywhere in UDOT's plans.

Wouldn't mind seeing US 40 four laned from Heber to Vernal either. The Uinta Basin is a rapidly growing area with no four-lane connection to the outside world, and there is a large volume of truck traffic on 40 mostly involved with oil and natural gas transport to refineries north of Salt Lake.

StogieGuy7

Quote from: webny99 on March 07, 2023, 08:15:03 PM
I think Michigan and Wisconsin would rank fairly high on the list, and North Carolina is a given because they're constantly adding freeways and interstates. Missouri and Nevada would be near the bottom, since both are lacking north/south interstates or freeways. Then you have many southern states, and to some extent the Dakotas/Minnesota/Iowa, that would be lower based on freeways, but make up for it with four-lane expressways that can easily handle long-distance traffic.

Wisconsin's main weaknesses are the lack of a freeway connecting the SW part of the state with the rest (granted, the improvements to US 151 have helped with this issue) and the total lack of a connection between the SE corner of the state (Kenosha) with Madison. That one is glaring because it includes not just the 4th most populous city in the state but also speaks for a larger population area including Kenosha County and nearby Lake County, IL. It's a total PITA to get from this area to Madison and points west.  Aside from this, I agree that WI is pretty good. MI is good, yet it sucks because it has 1962-vintage 4-lane freeways trying to do the job of an 8-lane throughout much of S. MI.


Quote from: thspfc on March 07, 2023, 09:06:19 PM
Illinois has Interstates everywhere. 64, 70, 72, 74, 80, 88, and 90 all crisscross the state. It makes sense that IL has a lot, being !flat!, in the middle of the country, with a huge city that is one of the nation's biggest transportation hubs.

You're right, except for one thing and that's the Chicago area where nearly all freeways/expressways were aligined as spokes serving the City of Chicago under the assumption that all traffic would be coming/going from there. Of course, that's not at all the case and suburb to suburb access could be a LOT better. Try to get froim Waukegan/Gurnee to Schaumburg or Aurora. Or from Naperville to Joliet. Or from Elgin to Waukegan.  You pretty much have a choice of a very indirect tollway ride or a more direct, but ponderous, ride on a surface road. Yes, the Tri-State and 355 help somewhat, but their alignments are less than ideal (and the Tri-State was designed back when Elmhurst was considered an outer suburb). As these are large population centers in their own right, I'm counting it. Not that there's much that can be done about it at this point,

Dirt Roads

Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2023, 09:49:54 PM
Makes me wonder about West Virginia.

Quote from: webny99 on March 07, 2023, 10:44:11 PM
The terrain doesn't help, but even so, WV's connectivity isn't great. Getting from Wheeling to the rest of the state generally requires going through PA or Ohio, and connectivity to Virginia is lacking too. Parts of Corridor H are nice, but completion is still a long way off, and there's no true east/west alternatives out of Charleston.

One small point in WV's favor: US 19 is a very decent road which cuts a big corner between Beckley and I-79.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 07, 2023, 11:14:44 PM
How many people travel from Wheeling to the rest of WV? Economically, is Wheeling more connected to Ohio/PA than the rest of their own state?

Amazingly, the folks in the Northern Panhandle staunchly identify with the rest of West Virginia.  But perhaps the question should be reversed, as how many people travel from "the rest of West Virginia" to Wheeling?  The Mountain East Conference often holds its basketball tournaments at WesBanco Arena in Wheeling, which also rotates in as occasional host to the "State Tournament" (high schools).  Also, the Festival of Lights display at Oglebay Park draws folks from throughout the Mountain State at Christmastime.  My folks yearned to take us to Wheeling, but we never got to go.  Not sure why, to be honest.

Back to the topic, if you consider connectivity through other states then the following cities/towns in West Virginia are not connected by freeways/highways*:

  • St. Albans #12
  • Vienna #13
  • Keyser #27
  • Grafton #28
  • Kingwood #37
  • Philippi #42
  • Moorefield #48 (located on Corridor H, but still not yet connected to rest of the world)
  • Wellsburg #50
Many of these towns are tiny (or perhaps all of them, depending upon your viewpoint).  I would be surprised if any other state stacks up like this. 
(Quite frankly, I am surprised myself.  However, many of the "important" towns from my days in West Virginia never grew - because of the lack of connectivity to freeways and highways).

*Towns located across the river from a freeway/highway were considered as "connected" as long as the bridge and connection route was a fairly short distance.

JayhawkCO

I'd call Colorado pretty high on the list. Obviously we have mountains, which makes any freeway difficult to build and isolates a good chunk of the state. But, the largest city that isn't served by a freeway is Montrose, population 20K. In fact, there are only four cities in the whole state with populations north of 10K that don't have freeways serving them - Montrose, Durango, Cañon City, and Steamboat Springs.

webny99

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on March 08, 2023, 08:44:23 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 07, 2023, 08:15:03 PM
I think Michigan and Wisconsin would rank fairly high on the list ...

Wisconsin's main weaknesses are the lack of a freeway connecting the SW part of the state with the rest (granted, the improvements to US 151 have helped with this issue) and the total lack of a connection between the SE corner of the state (Kenosha) with Madison. That one is glaring because it includes not just the 4th most populous city in the state but also speaks for a larger population area including Kenosha County and nearby Lake County, IL. It's a total PITA to get from this area to Madison and points west.  Aside from this, I agree that WI is pretty good.

That's a fair point. Connectivity from Kenosha and Lake counties to Janesville and Madison is definitely a bit lacking. Yet I wouldn't say there's a total lack, since the fastest route generally uses I-94, it's just annoying that you have to go up to the Milwaukee area and deal with that instead of taking a more direct route. The area would definitely be well served by a better connection between I-94 and US 12, as well as upgrades to US 12 itself. For areas west of Kenosha where it doesn't make sense to use I-94, I would also consider a need for upgrades to US 14 and WI 50.

StogieGuy7

Quote from: webny99 on March 08, 2023, 11:28:35 AM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on March 08, 2023, 08:44:23 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 07, 2023, 08:15:03 PM
I think Michigan and Wisconsin would rank fairly high on the list ...

Wisconsin's main weaknesses are the lack of a freeway connecting the SW part of the state with the rest (granted, the improvements to US 151 have helped with this issue) and the total lack of a connection between the SE corner of the state (Kenosha) with Madison. That one is glaring because it includes not just the 4th most populous city in the state but also speaks for a larger population area including Kenosha County and nearby Lake County, IL. It's a total PITA to get from this area to Madison and points west.  Aside from this, I agree that WI is pretty good.

That's a fair point. Connectivity from Kenosha and Lake counties to Janesville and Madison is definitely a bit lacking. Yet I wouldn't say there's a total lack, since the fastest route generally uses I-94, it's just annoying that you have to go up to the Milwaukee area and deal with that instead of taking a more direct route. The area would definitely be well served by a better connection between I-94 and US 12, as well as upgrades to US 12 itself. For areas west of Kenosha where it doesn't make sense to use I-94, I would also consider a need for upgrades to US 14 and WI 50.

Agreed. US 12 from Elkhorn up to the Madison area is not sufficient for this traffic, and the most direct path from the Kenosha area involves cutting off near Whitewater and taking a county road "shortcut" to get you to I-90 at Edgerton. Obviously, this is far from ideal. Taking I-94 the whole way can be faster (during off hours) but can also be horrible if you hit it wrong. But, compared with many states, these are relatively minor quibbles.

sprjus4

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2023, 11:17:42 AM
I'd call Colorado pretty high on the list. Obviously we have mountains, which makes any freeway difficult to build and isolates a good chunk of the state. But, the largest city that isn't served by a freeway is Montrose, population 20K. In fact, there are only four cities in the whole state with populations north of 10K that don't have freeways serving them - Montrose, Durango, Cañon City, and Steamboat Springs.
I feel like one major gap that exists with Colorado is the connection between Colorado Springs to I-70 to the east, along with a full freeway on the east beltway of Colorado Springs... otherwise the state seems relatively decent.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: sprjus4 on March 08, 2023, 01:01:34 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2023, 11:17:42 AM
I'd call Colorado pretty high on the list. Obviously we have mountains, which makes any freeway difficult to build and isolates a good chunk of the state. But, the largest city that isn't served by a freeway is Montrose, population 20K. In fact, there are only four cities in the whole state with populations north of 10K that don't have freeways serving them - Montrose, Durango, Cañon City, and Steamboat Springs.
I feel like one major gap that exists with Colorado is the connection between Colorado Springs to I-70 to the east, along with a full freeway on the east beltway of Colorado Springs... otherwise the state seems relatively decent.

That stretch of US24 from Colorado Springs to Limon doesn't really bog down too much. I agree that the Springs will someday need a beltway. CO21 is usable but not ideal.

sprjus4

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2023, 01:06:59 PM
That stretch of US24 from Colorado Springs to Limon doesn't really bog down too much.
It's still a gap in the system, nonetheless.

QuoteI agree that the Springs will someday need a beltway. CO21 is usable but not ideal.
Perhaps, I was more thinking along the lines of upgrading the remaining sections to CO-21 to freeway standards by constructing more interchanges to replace intersections.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: sprjus4 on March 08, 2023, 01:13:48 PM
Perhaps, I was more thinking along the lines of upgrading the remaining sections to CO-21 to freeway standards by constructing more interchanges to replace intersections.

There are stretches where it passes through heavy commercial areas without much room for freeway ROW.

sprjus4

You could certainly fit a tight SPUI in that space, with perhaps some slight taking of driveway space, or at most one business.

If you'll notice, CO-21 has limited access right of way, so businesses connecting directly is not a problem, which makes a freeway upgrade significantly easier.

StogieGuy7

Quote from: sprjus4 on March 08, 2023, 01:13:48 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2023, 01:06:59 PM
That stretch of US24 from Colorado Springs to Limon doesn't really bog down too much.
It's still a gap in the system, nonetheless.

QuoteI agree that the Springs will someday need a beltway. CO21 is usable but not ideal.
Perhaps, I was more thinking along the lines of upgrading the remaining sections to CO-21 to freeway standards by constructing more interchanges to replace intersections.

Access from Colorado Springs to points west is terrible. Try to get to Grand Junction or most big ski towns and it's a long slog from The Springs. I understand why it is, but the lack of any westward connection between CO's 2nd biggest metro and the west is a yawning gap IMO.  Lived in CO Spgs for a couple of years some time back, so I remember this issue quite well.  Connecting with I-70 eastbound never bothered me much OTOH. That's a fairly easy ride.

webny99

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2023, 01:20:35 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 08, 2023, 01:13:48 PM
Perhaps, I was more thinking along the lines of upgrading the remaining sections to CO-21 to freeway standards by constructing more interchanges to replace intersections.

There are stretches where it passes through heavy commercial areas without much room for freeway ROW.

That looks very similar to a corridor that Texas has upgraded from arterial to freeway with frontage roads. See US 281 north of San Antonio 2016 vs. 2021.

webny99

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 08, 2023, 12:22:26 AM
We don't think of it in 2023, but a lot of cities developed independently of each other and thus there was no need for a major connection between them. Reno and Vegas is one pair of such cities.

That's true, but in the modern era, it is part of the DOT's job to assess how that's changed over time and make improvements to better accommodate those connections.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on March 08, 2023, 02:38:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 08, 2023, 01:13:48 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2023, 01:06:59 PM
That stretch of US24 from Colorado Springs to Limon doesn't really bog down too much.
It's still a gap in the system, nonetheless.

QuoteI agree that the Springs will someday need a beltway. CO21 is usable but not ideal.
Perhaps, I was more thinking along the lines of upgrading the remaining sections to CO-21 to freeway standards by constructing more interchanges to replace intersections.

Access from Colorado Springs to points west is terrible. Try to get to Grand Junction or most big ski towns and it's a long slog from The Springs. I understand why it is, but the lack of any westward connection between CO's 2nd biggest metro and the west is a yawning gap IMO.  Lived in CO Spgs for a couple of years some time back, so I remember this issue quite well.  Connecting with I-70 eastbound never bothered me much OTOH. That's a fairly easy ride.

Going via Denver isn't that out of the way to GJ, especially if you take C-470 around. It seems like most of this thread is about connecting large population centers. GJ is large relative to stuff west of the Front Range, but there's no doubt that the majority of the population in Colorado is connected to other population centers easily by freeway. GJ is smaller than Castle Rock now.

StogieGuy7

Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2023, 02:59:17 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on March 08, 2023, 02:38:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 08, 2023, 01:13:48 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2023, 01:06:59 PM
That stretch of US24 from Colorado Springs to Limon doesn't really bog down too much.
It's still a gap in the system, nonetheless.

QuoteI agree that the Springs will someday need a beltway. CO21 is usable but not ideal.
Perhaps, I was more thinking along the lines of upgrading the remaining sections to CO-21 to freeway standards by constructing more interchanges to replace intersections.

Access from Colorado Springs to points west is terrible. Try to get to Grand Junction or most big ski towns and it's a long slog from The Springs. I understand why it is, but the lack of any westward connection between CO's 2nd biggest metro and the west is a yawning gap IMO.  Lived in CO Spgs for a couple of years some time back, so I remember this issue quite well.  Connecting with I-70 eastbound never bothered me much OTOH. That's a fairly easy ride.

Going via Denver isn't that out of the way to GJ, especially if you take C-470 around. It seems like most of this thread is about connecting large population centers. GJ is large relative to stuff west of the Front Range, but there's no doubt that the majority of the population in Colorado is connected to other population centers easily by freeway. GJ is smaller than Castle Rock now.

The part about sticking to large population centers is fair; however, it's Colorado so the mountains and the west are going to be a big draw. And driving up to the Denver area to head westbound is a PITA. Basically, you're saying to tack 1+ hour on to each end of your trip, wherever you're heading on I-70 west.  As we're talking about connecting a fairly major city with fairly major destinations, I think my comment is valid.

I will reiterate that I understand why the aforementioned westbound journey on US-24 is about as good as it will get for a long time, but it's still worthy of note. Albuquerque and Farmington have a better connection and both cities are smaller than the pair I referred to here. Though Gr. Jct is far from the only reason you'd venture west out of COS.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on March 08, 2023, 03:06:16 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2023, 02:59:17 PM
Quote from: StogieGuy7 on March 08, 2023, 02:38:03 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 08, 2023, 01:13:48 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 08, 2023, 01:06:59 PM
That stretch of US24 from Colorado Springs to Limon doesn't really bog down too much.
It's still a gap in the system, nonetheless.

QuoteI agree that the Springs will someday need a beltway. CO21 is usable but not ideal.
Perhaps, I was more thinking along the lines of upgrading the remaining sections to CO-21 to freeway standards by constructing more interchanges to replace intersections.

Access from Colorado Springs to points west is terrible. Try to get to Grand Junction or most big ski towns and it's a long slog from The Springs. I understand why it is, but the lack of any westward connection between CO's 2nd biggest metro and the west is a yawning gap IMO.  Lived in CO Spgs for a couple of years some time back, so I remember this issue quite well.  Connecting with I-70 eastbound never bothered me much OTOH. That's a fairly easy ride.

Going via Denver isn't that out of the way to GJ, especially if you take C-470 around. It seems like most of this thread is about connecting large population centers. GJ is large relative to stuff west of the Front Range, but there's no doubt that the majority of the population in Colorado is connected to other population centers easily by freeway. GJ is smaller than Castle Rock now.

The part about sticking to large population centers is fair; however, it's Colorado so the mountains and the west are going to be a big draw. And driving up to the Denver area to head westbound is a PITA. Basically, you're saying to tack 1+ hour on to each end of your trip, wherever you're heading on I-70 west.  As we're talking about connecting a fairly major city with fairly major destinations, I think my comment is valid.

I will reiterate that I understand why the aforementioned westbound journey on US-24 is about as good as it will get for a long time, but it's still worthy of note. Albuquerque and Farmington have a better connection and both cities are smaller than the pair I referred to here. Though Gr. Jct is far from the only reason you'd venture west out of COS.

There are plenty of good spots in the mountains, though, that are easily reached via US24 west. I spend relatively little time in the mountain areas near I-70. I don't ski, but I do hike, camp, and climb mountains, and most of that is about due west of the Springs or farther south. The Collegiate Peaks are easily reached via US24 from the Springs, and with a lot less traffic than US285 from Denver too.

webny99

I think I would argue that the missing quadrant of C-470 is a bigger issue for Colorado overall than lack of westbound route out of Colorado Springs. Fort Collins to GJ is probably even worse than Colorado Springs to GJ because of that gap.

sprjus4

The existing route is about 26-27 miles, and a beltway routing would shave it a couple down to about 25 miles. It's probably not as bad as it seems, at least outside peak hours.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: webny99 on March 08, 2023, 03:10:56 PM
I think I would argue that the missing quadrant of C-470 is a bigger issue for Colorado overall than lack of westbound route out of Colorado Springs. Fort Collins to GJ is probably even worse than Colorado Springs to GJ because of that gap.

Maybe so, but you still have the little stub of I-76 that cuts off having to travel through the Mousetrap that saves a little time. And, you're only missing an octant, not a quadrant since the Northwest Parkway goes between I-25 and US36.



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