Would you support new toll roads?

[bugo]

I don't have any problems with toll roads per se, but I want to get a bang for my buck. If I'm paying for the road out of my own cash, I expect it to be immaculately maintained, with frequent, well-maintained service plazas and signs that look like someone who actually gives a damn laid them out. Taking this in mind it should come to no surprise that I tend to avoid OTA turnpikes as much as possible. The Kansas Turnpike is about what I expect out of a toll road so even though it costs $5.25 for the portion I use it doesn't bother me as much as the (lesser) amount I had to pay on the Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes.

I don't mind paying for the Muskogee Turnpike when going to Arkansas.  Avoiding driving through Muskogee is worth the $3 alone.  And I enjoy the 75 MPH speed limit.  It's relaxing driving legally at that speed.

Although I will say that the Creek Turnpike is worth however many dollars it costs just to get around the insanity that Tulsans call the Skelly Drive.

With Skelly Drive under construction, it's definitely worth the money to use the Creek Turnpike.  If you don't want to pay the toll, I-244 is a good alternative to I-44.  Right now, part of I-244 is closed downtown but traffic is detoured onto I-444.  And that way, you get to see the skyline up close.

[J N Winkler]

I don't think the Kansas Turnpike currently has many signs which "look like someone who actually gives a damn laid them out"--though (now don't kill me, please) that is starting to change with the new Clearview signs.  As far as I am concerned, KTA completely wrecked Turnpike signing in the last major sign rehabilitation cycle--badly detailed exit tabs, too-wide kerning on sign legend, legend too close to borders, etc.  The older signs were done substantially to older KDOT specifications and looked much better.

It would be a real pain to try to get from Wichita to Topeka without the Turnpike though.  I-135 to US 50 is an acceptable substitute for a Wichita-to-Kansas City itinerary, but there was no plausible Wichita-to-Topeka "beeline" before the Turnpike.

[Troubleshooter]

There are a few things I do NOT support with a toll road:

1. Using a toll road to support the state highway budget, rather than to pay off the road. The tolls should end when the project is paid off.

2. Putting tolls on roads where there is no alternate route (such as toll bridges where crossings are few and far between).

3. Charging to enter the city center or some other high traffic area (e.g. London UK).

4. Ramps you can't use if you don't have that stupid automatic toll collection device (which should be banned for invasion of privacy).

[SSOWorld]

There are a few things I do NOT support with a toll road:

1. Using a toll road to support the state highway budget, rather than to pay off the road. The tolls should end when the project is paid off.

2. Putting tolls on roads where there is no alternate route (such as toll bridges where crossings are few and far between).

3. Charging to enter the city center or some other high traffic area (e.g. London UK).

4. Ramps you can't use if you don't have that stupid automatic toll collection device (which should be banned for invasion of privacy).

Any proof of number 4 being true?

[Brandon]

There are a few things I do NOT support with a toll road:

1. Using a toll road to support the state highway budget, rather than to pay off the road. The tolls should end when the project is paid off.

2. Putting tolls on roads where there is no alternate route (such as toll bridges where crossings are few and far between).

3. Charging to enter the city center or some other high traffic area (e.g. London UK).

4. Ramps you can't use if you don't have that stupid automatic toll collection device (which should be banned for invasion of privacy).

Any proof of number 4 being true?

Near here, the new Eola Rd interchange on I-88.

[mightyace]

^^^

I would say more potential invasion of privacy.  I doubt that the tolling authorities do anything with the data more than to bill you.  And, even on "toll by plate" images, it's been pretty much established that image taking in an open, public area is legal.  (may not be prudent and some cops especially Amtrak and New Jersey Transit tend to forget that)

Now, getting to the potential part.  At the moment, the greatest danger would be data taken from a security breach.  Though, it is probably only a matter of time before law enforcement agencies start requesting (demanding?) toll information to track suspects.

[PAHighways]

There are a few things I do NOT support with a toll road:

1. Using a toll road to support the state highway budget, rather than to pay off the road. The tolls should end when the project is paid off.

2. Putting tolls on roads where there is no alternate route (such as toll bridges where crossings are few and far between).

3. Charging to enter the city center or some other high traffic area (e.g. London UK).

4. Ramps you can't use if you don't have that stupid automatic toll collection device (which should be banned for invasion of privacy).

Any proof of number 4 being true?

Exit 340/Virginia Drive on I-276

[iwishiwascanadian]

Although I do support tolling for CT, I think that in general tolling should be operated by the state or by a PPP.  If a PPP operates the tolling they should maintain the road and build the road well and keep it clear of traffic, if we spend money to use a road the least they can do is keep it clean, maintained and more importantly clear.  If a state operates it then I suppose I would want the same thing.  It kills me that even though the country keeps growing in terms of people that states are cutting money to infrastructure.

[cu2010]

Let's see...

Toll roads can provide congestion relief for congested areas...

...I don't live in a congested area...

...toll roads are supported by tolls from people driving it, not tax dollars...

...it helps people and I don't have to pay for it? Sign me up!

[mightyace]

^^^

I hadn't thought of it that way.  And, since the Tennessee Turnpike Authority or whatever it's called is stillborn, then I say go for it!

[J N Winkler]

The problem is that turnabout is fair play.  What if your community would benefit greatly from a new road, e.g. to relieve traffic congestion, but the rest of the state says, "We will not agree to an increase in the fuel tax to pay for it.  However, you can build it as a toll road even though you would have to pay a grossly inflated per-mile charge to use it and its congestion reduction benefits would be greatly reduced as a result"?

Also, a reliance on toll financing for new capital improvements creates a bias for facilities that can be operated as closed corridors even when smaller-scale improvements would deliver a significantly higher social rate of return.  Crude example:  $300 million for a toll road to bypass a well-known bottleneck when removal of the bottleneck itself would cost, say, $50 million, and not expose any new bottlenecks.  More realistic example:  toll road agency builds new road to a white-flight suburb just because it can--it already has the administrative infrastructure for new-location road construction and the requisite access to the capital markets--while the stack interchange downtown is neglected by the underfunded state DOT.  (I certainly understand and sympathize with others' objections that cross-subsidization destroys the "pay only for what you use" transparency that is traditionally associated with toll roads, but the fact remains that without provision for cross-subsidization and for toll road agency purchase of exploitable corridors from the state DOT, both of which have been used extensively in e.g. north-central Texas, toll road provision would probably be even more inegalitarian than it now is.)

It is very hard to design systems which can support tolling (or collection of a user charge in some sort of relation to the imputed cost of using the facility, taking into account externalities like congestion and pollution) in an "open" roadway environment without creating the infrastructure for gross invasion of privacy.

BTW, I thought electronic tolling data was already being used for law enforcement purposes.  Paraphrase from a Harlan Coben thriller (admittedly not a factual reference):  "We checked EZ-Pass records and she crossed the GWB going west at 2 AM . . ."

[froggie]

1. Using a toll road to support the state highway budget, rather than to pay off the road. The tolls should end when the project is paid off.

I see no problem with keeping tolls on when a project is paid off if those tolls are used to maintain/improve the facility.  That also saves the state DOT from having to divert funding for maintenance of the facility when it's suddenly dumped into their lap.

4. Ramps you can't use if you don't have that stupid automatic toll collection device (which should be banned for invasion of privacy).

Invasion of privacy in what sense?  Plus, last I checked, there's nothing requiring you to get one...THAT would be the invasion, not the manner of the device itself.

[vdeane]

Well, if you want to use the ramp.  I'm against ezpass-only exits, but they're very popular now.

[Duke87]

"We checked EZ-Pass records and she crossed the GWB going west at 2 AM . . ."

Well, someone messed that up. The GWB, like all Hudson River crossings, is tolled eastbound.
But yes, EZPass records have been used to chase runaway criminals. And they're hardly unique in terms of high tech tracking. Cell phones are used for this purpose all the time.

I'm against ezpass-only exits, but they're very popular now.

They're becoming a thing because they require a lot less space than a full toll interchange, are cheaper to build, and since they are unmanned are cheaper to operate.

Problem is, they exclude people who aren't local. EZPass has a large range, but much of the country is beyond its domain. Someone from Nebraska wouldn't reasonably expected to have an EZPass for when they visit their family that lives near Virginia Drive in Pennsylvania.

The solution would be to install cameras and go to cashless tolling, but this would require that the entire turnpike to go over to such a system. And I do believe the toll collectors are unionized, so... good luck. 

[rarnold]

I wish that we could get an extension of the Kansas Turnpike to Western Kansas along the US 54 corridor. There are a lot of people that use that road on a daily basis, especially trucks. They are currently building the expressway portion from Kingman to Greensburg, but a tollway could help pay for future maintenance and construction.

[SSOWorld]

There are a few things I do NOT support with a toll road:

1. Using a toll road to support the state highway budget, rather than to pay off the road. The tolls should end when the project is paid off.

2. Putting tolls on roads where there is no alternate route (such as toll bridges where crossings are few and far between).

3. Charging to enter the city center or some other high traffic area (e.g. London UK).

4. Ramps you can't use if you don't have that stupid automatic toll collection device (which should be banned for invasion of privacy).

Any proof of number 4 being true?

Exit 340/Virginia Drive on I-276

Brandon and PAHighways - I meant the Invasion of Privacy thing - I know the exits exist - I passed by one 3 weeks ago. (coincidently the one PAHighways mentioned.)

[mightyace]

^^^

Yes, exactly.

Now, with the exception of that EZPass only exit, for now, you can still travel the turnpike anonymously by paying cash.

Now, in Texas and Florida plus Toronto, have all-electronic toll roads with either a transponder (no cash) or a picture of your plate taken and your identity tracked.

For the most part, you can pay for goods and services anonymously (cash) or tracked (check, credit card, debit card).  The number of situations that are card-only are few.  Auto rental is card only, but the renters have the right and need to know who you are.

Now, I often pay by card, but it's my choice not someone else's.

The only solution with the toll roads is shunpiking.  And, as we have discussed before, that has variable levels of success depending on what you're bypassing.

Now, it wouldn't bother me as much if a border crossing bridge was electronic only as the US and Canadian/Mexican authorities already know that I'm crossing.

[Grzrd]

Georgia used to have 2 toll roads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_State_Route_400

First was the Torras Causeway between Brunswick and St. Simons Island.  Bonds were paid off and tolls actually removed.

Second is a section of the southern segment of GA 400 between I-85 and I-285.  Bonds have been paid off, but, under terms of fine print, tolls cannot be removed before 2011.  Debate is slowly growing as to whether tolls should be eliminated, especially with a $2  billion rebuild of the GA 400/I-285 intersection looming (GDOT has also seriously studied feasibility of expanding GA 400/I-85 intersection to provide ramps for SB 400 to NB 85 and SB 85 to NB 400).  Also, the cost of annual yearly maintenance is considerable.  I'm sure the tolls will remain for a long time before anything is decided.

My position is as follows (I'm assuming technology of drive-thru cards could accomodate this):

1. The ideal solution is to have the tolls removed.  Torras Causeway.

2. Limit the continuation of tolls to 2 categories: (1) required annual maintenance ON THE TOLLED ROAD ITSELF, and (2) needed infrastructure improvements ON THE TOLLED ROAD ITSELF. (We all know what happens when the pot of money becomes too pork-attractive).  For GA 400, I would be in favor of the continuation of tolls for these limited purposes.

3. At some point, a toll road will come down to the annual maintenance issue.  I would be in favor a computer adjustment to the toll rate to either "end" the toll at a given point in the year when the anticipated annual budget is met, or to have a toll rate adjusted on an annual basis based on anticipated maintenance budget.  

EDIT - FOLLOWUP QUESTION

With Torras Causeway in mind, and at the risk of straying too far from original topic,  
where else in country have tolls successfully been discontinued?

[deathtopumpkins]

With Torras Causeway in mind, and at the risk of straying too far from original topic, 
where else in country have tolls successfully been discontinued?

Virginia Beach, VA. The current I-264 from I-64 to the Oceanfront used to be VA 44, a toll road until the late 1990s.

The Kentucky Parkways.

I-190 in the Niagra Falls, NY area.

The Merritt Pkwy and Connecticut Turnpike (I-95).

The Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike (I-95), Virginia.

[Grzrd]

Are current annual maintenance issues now part of respective state general budgets?

[mightyace]

IIRC The Kentucky Parkways have always been maintained by tax dollars.  The toll money was solely for building the road.

[vdeane]

I-190 in the Niagra Falls, NY area.

Unless there was once a toll booth north of the Grand Island Bridges, this is false.  The toll barriers in Buffalo have been removed, but tolls remain on the Grand Island Bridges.

[deathtopumpkins]

I-190 in the Niagra Falls, NY area.

Unless there was once a toll booth north of the Grand Island Bridges, this is false.  The toll barriers in Buffalo have been removed, but tolls remain on the Grand Island Bridges.

Exactly! Did I misinterpret that?

[thenetwork]

^^^
  At the moment, the greatest danger would be data taken from a security breach.  Though, it is probably only a matter of time before law enforcement agencies start requesting (demanding?) toll information to track suspects.

I'd be more worried about Big Brother tracking On-Star vehicles in the now Government-owned GM vehicle family.  All the necessary resources seem to be in place in order to follow those driving On-Star/GM cars.  And if I recall correctly, even if you don't subscribe to the normal On-Star benefits, it is still operating 24/7 in case the vehicle crashes or is car-jacked -- they can still locate the vehicle in real time. 

For the most part, tollways only encompass a fraction of the nation's road miles, and I do not believe transponders can be tracked when away from tolling facilities.

[vdeane]

Exactly! Did I misinterpret that?

Well, Niagara Falls kinda implies the Grand Island bridges rather than the booths that were near downtown Buffalo.