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Author Topic: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread  (Read 4288 times)

bugo

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2023, 04:38:30 PM »

Arkansas doesn't do alternative routes. It will likely be US 412B.
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MikieTimT

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2023, 05:30:49 PM »

Arkansas doesn't do alternative routes. It will likely be US 412B.

Or just be US-412 once the new Interstate bypasses it.  Just like US-71 in Bella Vista.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2023, 05:43:35 PM »

I doubt the route through Springdale will remain part of US 412, it likely will become US 412B (although I wouldn't object to US 412 and AR 612 swapping places when the Springdale Northern Bypass is completed, which I know would never happen). Also, the future Interstate designation is planned to end at Interstate 49, and not at the future eastern terminus of the Springdale Northern Bypass. Although I would want the future Interstate to end at that future eastern terminus, it is likely set in stone that it will go no further east than Interstate 49.
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MikieTimT

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2023, 06:09:12 PM »

I doubt the route through Springdale will remain part of US 412, it likely will become US 412B (although I wouldn't object to US 412 and AR 612 swapping places when the Springdale Northern Bypass is completed, which I know would never happen). Also, the future Interstate designation is planned to end at Interstate 49, and not at the future eastern terminus of the Springdale Northern Bypass. Although I would want the future Interstate to end at that future eastern terminus, it is likely set in stone that it will go no further east than Interstate 49.

Until the Springdale Northern Bypass is completed back past Sonora, the current route remains US-412 for sure.  The ball is rolling for the next 2 segments east of I-49 at least, but we're likely 10 years out from this being a thing. 
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Tomahawkin

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2023, 07:29:03 PM »

With the growth in that area a Bypass should be on the books. I Don't know why ARDOT Has no interest in accelerating this since this is the biggest economic hub in the State, IMO. Better planning might get more corporations like Amazon to set up offices and DC's in that area. A lack of planning will prevent that... Ask the residents of West Memphis and Jonesboro
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edwaleni

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2023, 12:15:11 AM »

With the growth in that area a Bypass should be on the books. I Don't know why ARDOT Has no interest in accelerating this since this is the biggest economic hub in the State, IMO. Better planning might get more corporations like Amazon to set up offices and DC's in that area. A lack of planning will prevent that... Ask the residents of West Memphis and Jonesboro

It would be kind of interesting for Amazon to paste their name on a new multi-story office building at the junction of I-49 and the Bypass.

Every day some WM exec has to drive by and look at it.

Even better for Amazon to sign a long term rent on a electric billboard next door that espouses its recent accomplishments.

I am not a big Amazon fan personally, but I also don't have a great deal of love of WalMart either. They have nearly destroyed the local small downtowns with the building of one supercenter on the outskirts of many towns.
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Road Hog

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2023, 03:19:44 AM »

Maybe old 412 through Siloam Springs and Springdale could be signed as Alternate US 412, like the former 412 alignment that was bypassed by the Cherokee Turnpike.
Arkansas does not do alternate routes. It will sign old 412 through the towns as Business 412 (or in Arkansas style, 412B). In between, I think 312 (the old convention) for the old route is taken so maybe AR 512?.
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MikieTimT

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2023, 08:04:46 AM »

Maybe old 412 through Siloam Springs and Springdale could be signed as Alternate US 412, like the former 412 alignment that was bypassed by the Cherokee Turnpike.
Arkansas does not do alternate routes. It will sign old 412 through the towns as Business 412 (or in Arkansas style, 412B). In between, I think 312 (the old convention) for the old route is taken so maybe AR 512?.

The bypass will remain AR-612 in all its segments until it becomes US-412 and the current facility becomes US-412 Business upon completion of the Springdale Northern Bypass.  What remains to be seen is what comes first, I-XX on the western portion concurrent with AR-612, or the Springdale Northern Bypass completion.  My guess is that the Springdale Northern Bypass is completed long before a Siloam Springs Bypass happens, so likely the latter.
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Tomahawkin

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2023, 09:49:10 AM »

OT, how much is left to do on US 412 between Tontitown and Tulsa before it is a full Freeway? I haven't been through there in 20 years...
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rte66man

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2023, 10:59:56 AM »

OT, how much is left to do on US 412 between Tontitown and Tulsa before it is a full Freeway? I haven't been through there in 20 years...

The biggest roadblock is a Siloam Springs bypass. Once into OK, the Cherokee Turnpike will get you to near Chouteau. The rest could easily  be upgraded to interstate standards
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2023, 11:07:04 AM »

Plenty of upgrades are needed along this corridor before this corridor is up to full freeway standards. Between Interstate 44/OK 364 and the western end of the Cherokee Turnpike, US 412 has plenty of at-grade intersections, which would need to be grade-separated or cul-du-saced to bring the roadway up to freeway standards. There are already interchanges at OK 88 and US 69, and more will likely follow in the future. Also, off the end of the Cherokee Turnpike, the construction of a Siloam Springs Bypass, and the completion of the Springdale Northern Bypass would be required to make the Tulsa-Tontitown corridor a full freeway/tollway. US 412 west of Tulsa has it easier, as it only needs to be brought up to Interstate Standards and the only remaining at-grade intersection is at Diamond Head Dr., as mentioned before.
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Bobby5280

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2023, 11:52:16 AM »

Quote from: The Ghostbuster
Between Interstate 44/OK 364 and the western end of the Cherokee Turnpike, US 412 has plenty of at-grade intersections, which would need to be grade-separated or cul-du-saced to bring the roadway up to freeway standards.

On the bright side, that portion of US-412 would be easy to upgrade (at least in terms of geometry). Six intersections (S4115 Rd, N 289th E Ave, SH-412P, S 4160 Rd, Gregory School Road, S 4240 Rd) already have big spreads of ROW reserved for future exit ramps. The other roads crossing at-grade could either get full exits with slip ramps, only bridged over the highway or cul-de-sacked into dead ends at the highway.

The Siloam Springs situation is kind of a mess, one that's only going to get worse the longer ODOT and AR DOT take to get started on a bypass. That region is growing after all.
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kphoger

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2023, 12:01:33 PM »

US 412 west of Tulsa has it easier, as it only needs to be brought up to Interstate Standards and the only remaining at-grade intersection is at Diamond Head Dr., as mentioned before.

And hasn't it already been cable-barriered, à la I-44?  Or are there any remaining grass-hump median sections?
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Bobby5280

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2023, 12:24:14 PM »

The Sand Springs Expressway has a cable barrier on the portions of the road that have a grassy median. Substantial portions of the expressway need a lot of work on shoulders and ramps (and the main lanes in some locations). The portion in Shady Grove (on the West side of the Arkansas River) needs a lot of work.

The Cimarron Turnpike still has a couple spots of narrow grassy median (and no interior left shoulders) just West of the Stillwater Spur.
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MikieTimT

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2023, 02:09:55 PM »

Quote from: The Ghostbuster
Between Interstate 44/OK 364 and the western end of the Cherokee Turnpike, US 412 has plenty of at-grade intersections, which would need to be grade-separated or cul-du-saced to bring the roadway up to freeway standards.

On the bright side, that portion of US-412 would be easy to upgrade (at least in terms of geometry). Six intersections (S4115 Rd, N 289th E Ave, SH-412P, S 4160 Rd, Gregory School Road, S 4240 Rd) already have big spreads of ROW reserved for future exit ramps. The other roads crossing at-grade could either get full exits with slip ramps, only bridged over the highway or cul-de-sacked into dead ends at the highway.

The Siloam Springs situation is kind of a mess, one that's only going to get worse the longer ODOT and AR DOT take to get started on a bypass. That region is growing after all.

It would have been less of a mess if it had been bypassed to the north 16 years ago instead of 6 laning Siloam Springs.  There was just too much local pushback to a bypass back then, and now the chickens have come in to roost.  Now, unless they get ROW secured on the north side of town within a couple of years, it's going to wind up going up almost to Gentry or through the hollows into the Illinois River bottoms to the south.  Siloam Springs is the value property value in NWA now, so anything more than 3 years to secure ROW will wind up north of Lake Siloam Springs with anything on the north side of Siloam Springs.  If you look at a topographic map of the Siloam Springs area, you'll see what I mean.  It's gnarly to push a road south of Siloam Springs with lots of earthwork.
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Bobby5280

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2023, 03:21:08 PM »

I think they've already missed the boat for a bypass option going North around Siloam Springs. Existing housing and more than a dozen new housing development projects are blocking any path for at least 3 or more miles North of US-412. There is less development South of the US-412 corridor, but the terrain is a little rougher and more covered with trees.

I'm starting to wonder if they're going to be stuck having to build a new freeway along US-412 straight thru Siloam Springs.

Upgrading US-412 to Interstate quality thru Siloam Springs would be highly disruptive. It would require demolishing nearly all the properties along one side of the existing road. But virtually all of those properties are commercial businesses and the majority of those businesses look like major company chain stores or chain restaurants. Such things can be built pretty easily.

Removing a bunch of chain stores is not like kicking a family out of its home via eminent domain, giving them "fair market value" for their house and letting them suffer trying to find something comparable to what they had that doesn't cost far more than their old house. Commercial businesses might actually welcome the upgraded frontage.
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MikieTimT

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2023, 04:03:54 PM »

I think they've already missed the boat for a bypass option going North around Siloam Springs. Existing housing and more than a dozen new housing development projects are blocking any path for at least 3 or more miles North of US-412. There is less development South of the US-412 corridor, but the terrain is a little rougher and more covered with trees.

I'm starting to wonder if they're going to be stuck having to build a new freeway along US-412 straight thru Siloam Springs.

Upgrading US-412 to Interstate quality thru Siloam Springs would be highly disruptive. It would require demolishing nearly all the properties along one side of the existing road. But virtually all of those properties are commercial businesses and the majority of those businesses look like major company chain stores or chain restaurants. Such things can be built pretty easily.

Removing a bunch of chain stores is not like kicking a family out of its home via eminent domain, giving them "fair market value" for their house and letting them suffer trying to find something comparable to what they had that doesn't cost far more than their old house. Commercial businesses might actually welcome the upgraded frontage.

That's likely the conundrum the engineers are facing right now coming up with the alternatives for the Mar/Apr public meeting.  I don't envy their job right now.  Whatever alternative is ultimately selected, it'll be 3 times the cost and twice as far out as the 3 alternatives they didn't select rather than the stupid short-sighted 6 laning they did back in '04.  Think of how much easier this all would be right now in an alternate reality where ANY of the other alternatives were selected, LIKE CORRIDOR B.

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Bobby5280

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2023, 09:43:20 PM »

One possible "less painful" scenario: a hybrid approach of upgrading along the existing US-412 ROW across the OK/AR state line to the S Lincoln Street (AR-59) interchange. Rather than sticking with the S-Curve US-412 takes from that point the new Interstate could continue more Eastward on a new terrain path. The ROW would have to shift South a bit and take out some industrial properties to avoid hitting a new housing development. The freeway could follow somewhat parallel to Keck Road (CR-4). Then it could merge back into existing US-412 just East of the Illinois River crossing.

It may actually still just be easier upgrading along the existing US-412 ROW the entire way. Some of the businesses are actually pretty junky looking. Having the main commercial corridor upgraded to an Interstate with continuous frontage would give Siloam Springs a visual facelift. Not everyone likes the look of urban freeway designs, but the "main street" would be less cluttered looking than it is now.

Quote from: MikieTimT
Think of how much easier this all would be right now in an alternate reality where ANY of the other alternatives were selected, LIKE CORRIDOR B.

Yeah, that Corridor B alternative is "toast" now. Corridors C-1 & C-2 still look somewhat possible.
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MikieTimT

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2023, 12:49:54 PM »

One possible "less painful" scenario: a hybrid approach of upgrading along the existing US-412 ROW across the OK/AR state line to the S Lincoln Street (AR-59) interchange. Rather than sticking with the S-Curve US-412 takes from that point the new Interstate could continue more Eastward on a new terrain path. The ROW would have to shift South a bit and take out some industrial properties to avoid hitting a new housing development. The freeway could follow somewhat parallel to Keck Road (CR-4). Then it could merge back into existing US-412 just East of the Illinois River crossing.

It may actually still just be easier upgrading along the existing US-412 ROW the entire way. Some of the businesses are actually pretty junky looking. Having the main commercial corridor upgraded to an Interstate with continuous frontage would give Siloam Springs a visual facelift. Not everyone likes the look of urban freeway designs, but the "main street" would be less cluttered looking than it is now.

Quote from: MikieTimT
Think of how much easier this all would be right now in an alternate reality where ANY of the other alternatives were selected, LIKE CORRIDOR B.

Yeah, that Corridor B alternative is "toast" now. Corridors C-1 & C-2 still look somewhat possible.

Ship has already sailed on tying straight into the southern E/W leg of US-412 as there is a Rausch-Coleman subdivision south of Kenwood St. that is in the build-out process with probably 1/4 of the houses at or nearing completion.  The next logical area for development will be along Kenwood St. to the east, making it all the more impossible to take that routing.  Siloam Springs is undergoing a development boom still even with higher interest rates as the housing going up is more entry level, which still has great appeal in this economic environment.  The land around Siloam Springs is flat and cheap, but that will likely change in 6-7 years with residential development continuing apace.  The funds for ROW acquisition for whatever bypass are hopefully available sooner rather than later as property value inflation in that area isn't exactly stagnating.
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MikieTimT

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Re: US-412 highway upgrades and bypass (a.k.a. AR-612) in NWA: the thread
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2024, 11:30:34 AM »

Figured rather than duplicate here, would just post link to the other related thread.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=21769.msg2913678#msg2913678
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