HAWK at a fire station

[SignBridge]

I agree with MNHighwayMan's post up above. We should have stayed with conventional signals with conventional rules. Instead, the FHWA has created a whole new confusing set of signals with a whole new set of issues.

Not sure if this has come up before: The alternating red's in a HAWK mean stop and proceed if safe. But similar horizontal alternating red's at a railroad crossing mean the opposite, stop-and-stay. So how does the FHWA justify having the same signal mean two different things in different locations? Seems like a dangerous conflict to me. I don't understand how they could allow this.

[Amtrakprod]

I agree with MNHighwayMan's post up above. We should have stayed with conventional signals with conventional rules. Instead, the FHWA has created a whole new confusing set of signals with a whole new set of issues.

Not sure if this has come up before: The alternating red's in a HAWK mean stop and proceed if safe. But similar horizontal alternating red's at a railroad crossing mean the opposite, stop-and-stay. So how does the FHWA justify having the same signal mean two different things in different locations? Seems like a dangerous conflict to me. I don't understand how they could allow this.

I just addressed this issue above, use a double flashing red light instead


iPhone

[kphoger]

Considering the worst thing that could happen is that drivers won't go when they could, I don't really think it's a problem in need of a solution.

That's actually quite dangerous. If a driver unnecessarily comes to a complete stop at what is effectively a green light (since dark HAWK's mean "go"), they could get themselves rear-ended by drivers who know that HAWK's do not require a stop, and who wouldn't be expecting such behavior without a red light.

Like I think I've addressed before, this whole "stop when dark" thing still applies even without retroreflective backplates, but I see no reason to call attention to them when they are effectively irrelevant when dark. A retroreflective "CROSSWALK" sign is enough to alert drivers to its existence, frankly.

But that's not at all what I meant.  Sorry for not being clear.  I didn't mean people were likely to stop at a HAWK because it's a dark signal (because I seriously doubt anybody does), but rather than people would stop but not proceed on a flashing red.

[mrsman]

I think an issue with the HAWK is the alternating flashing red, which bears more resemblance to railway crossings than traffic lights or beacons. From personal experience, there is very low driver comprehension with the HAWK's flashing phase. I think more drivers would understand a single flashing red light.

Yeah, I would prefer it if the two red balls flashed in unison rather than alternating, and I agree that would aid driver comprehension.

That's what I'm saying, like in this video:

Except that still nobody went ahead on flashing red in that video either.

IMO, the bigger problem is still having some cars run the red light at the beginning of the cycle.  I think that a HAWK light is a surprise.  Many drivers drive on through because for the most part, these signals are dark and they just ride through and never expect them to be red.  But if the dormant phase were green instead of dark, then drivers would treat them like a regular signal.

During the FDW phase, drivers can see either flashing yellow (pelican) or flashing red (California style).

green>yellow>red>flashing yellow>green.  Optional Signage:  Yield to peds on flashing yellow.

green>yellow>red>flashing red>green  Optional Signage: Stop for peds on flashing red.  Proceed when clear.

And of course the signage could have some level of symbols to cut down on wordage.  I'm thinking along the lines of the "left turn yield on green" that you some times see at doghouses to encourage people to make permitted left turns.  (And to this day, I still see unaware drivers who believe that they are not allowed to turn left when the green arrow terminates, even if it's clear.)

Some of the problem is that these ideas are still against how signals are supposed to work.  In fact, I think in many states, there's laws stating that a light must turn from green to yellow to red back to green again.  Going green-yellow-red-yellow-green wouldn't be permitted.  Even green-yellow-red-flashing red-green wouldn't be correct, because a flashing phase is usually followed by a steady phase of the same color.

So there's a matter of trying to find something that works within the realm of what is currently permitted, yet be efficient to prevent people from stopping unnecessarily.

I know I've seen numerous solid red arrows turn to flashing red arrows the to green arrows in my life before the FYA replaced them, and that hasn't ever really caused confusion from what I've seen.

[Someone recently posted this on the California thread]

https://youtu.be/2vGNk8dfOdU

As a continuation of what I posted earlier, on this video 0:38, you see a RYG signal in West Hollywood, CA that flashes red during the red phase, but in all other respects is a normal signal.  IMO, it removes a lot of the confusion with HAWKS as the signal is generally green not dark.  Drivers intuitively know that green signals may eventually hit red, but a dark signal that they pass around 90% of the time as dark sometimes coming to life is surprising.  And as we have seen from some HAWK videos, it is absolutely frightening to see drivers sail right through on a red light when people are crossing.

The one modification I would make for a mid-bock ped xing signal would be to have a brief solid red phase before going to flashing red.  The signal would normally rest at green.  If no one pushes the button, it's green all the time.  When pedestrian pushes the button, at some point (not too much) later, the yellow comes on to warn of an upcoming red.  [Ideally, this should be timed to allow for good signal progression, to the extent possible.] Then, a solid red for a few seconds, while peds get a white man.  Invariably, there would be a pedestrian walking at this time, so cars should absolutely stop.  Then, the signal can move to flashing red (during the flashing don't walk phase).  This accounts for the fact that many pedestrians probably walk faster than 3.5 ft/sec and would be safely out of the way and cars may progress.  The flashing red ensures that cars will still come to a stop, for example to account for any peds that may still be running for the signal, but would generally allow for traffic to move after a brief stop.  And then the signal will revert to green until the next pedestrian pushes the button.

[SignBridge]

I agree kphoger. The pedestrian signal in the video is definitely better than a HAWK.

As far as signals suddenly coming to life causing drivers to be startled, the same thing happens with conventional fire station signals when the flashing-yellow changes to steady-yellow and then steady-red. You can practically see the confusion on drivers' faces when they see it happening at a mid-block location but they don't quite believe or understand what they're seeing, and they coast right on thru....... Sometimes traffic doesn't actually stop until the signal has been red for five seconds or more.

[jakeroot]

I also agree. The regular 3-head signals are clearly a bit better understood, even when operating the same as a HAWK (as we can see in that CA-2 video above). I have yet to find a video that shows drivers correctly driving off (after a stop) following a HAWK switching from solid to flashing mode. Seems like most drivers just wait until the signals turn off. At that point, you may as well use a regular 3-orb signal...same throughput.

Here's a theory: if you need signs to tell drivers what to do, it's probably not very intuitive. The FYA doesn't have this issue, though communities still often use a supplemental sign.

As far as signals suddenly coming to life causing drivers to be startled, the same thing happens with conventional fire station signals when the flashing-yellow changes to steady-yellow and then steady-red. You can practically see the confusion on drivers' faces when they see it happening at a mid-block location but they don't quite believe or understand what they're seeing, and they coast right on thru....... Sometimes traffic doesn't actually stop until the signal has been red for five seconds or more.

Yep, can confirm. This is why I like BC's flashing green. It may go hours without changing, but at least drivers know that it can change. The flashing yellow emergency signal, I imagine, is being confused with a flashing yellow beacon, which never changes to any other color. So when it does change, drivers (as you say) don't understand or believe what they've seen, and may not actually acknowledge the signal until well after the red is displayed.