US 41 in Appleton, Menasha and Neenah, Wisconsin

[I-39]

Couple of things

1. WisDOT specifically stated the following in the FAQ on the US 41 Interstate Conversion site:

I-41 allows for future Interstate loop or spur routes to be designated off of I-41

I don't see any other routes that could be designated an Interstate spur, and since they are currently upgrading major parts of WIS 441, all signs seem to be pointing to it becoming I-441 at some point.

Just like I-39 and I-43 allow for spur or loop routes. If you want to go into specific wording, they didn't say to "allow WI-441 to become a loop route". So, it could be read either way. While it allows for such routes, it doesn't mean that there are plans to do it.

Yes, they didn't specifically say they would, but I am just saying that it seems like a good possibility for the future. If they weren't thinking about making it I-441, then I doubt WisDOT would be spending the money to upgrade the road between I-41 and Oneida Street (including putting in high speed ramps at the I-41/WIS 441/US 10 interchange)

[GeekJedi]

That was on the books for a while, and unrelated to the I-41 changes. In fact, the high-speed ramps have been in the planning stages long before I-41 was even a thing. So again, it's certainly possible, but WisDOT has a history of leaving well enough alone when it comes to route renumbering - especially in a situation where there aren't any governmental bodies asking for it to happen.

[SEWIGuy]

That was on the books for a while, and unrelated to the I-41 changes. In fact, the high-speed ramps have been in the planning stages long before I-41 was even a thing. So again, it's certainly possible, but WisDOT has a history of leaving well enough alone when it comes to route renumbering - especially in a situation where there aren't any governmental bodies asking for it to happen.

Exactly.  There are a number of instances where WIDOT most certainly could have renumbered to a 3di and have chosen not to.  I don't see it happening here either.

[I-39]

That was on the books for a while, and unrelated to the I-41 changes. In fact, the high-speed ramps have been in the planning stages long before I-41 was even a thing. So again, it's certainly possible, but WisDOT has a history of leaving well enough alone when it comes to route renumbering - especially in a situation where there aren't any governmental bodies asking for it to happen.

Exactly.  There are a number of instances where WIDOT most certainly could have renumbered to a 3di and have chosen not to.  I don't see it happening here either.

Good points. Never say never, but only time will tell if WisDOT will change it. The only other major route I could see being renumbered (replaced) with an Interstate is WIS 29 when that becomes a full freeway (which WisDOT stated in planning documents that is a possibility).

[mgk920]

Couple of things

1. WisDOT specifically stated the following in the FAQ on the US 41 Interstate Conversion site:

I-41 allows for future Interstate loop or spur routes to be designated off of I-41

I don't see any other routes that could be designated an Interstate spur, and since they are currently upgrading major parts of WIS 441, all signs seem to be pointing to it becoming I-441 at some point.

Just like I-39 and I-43 allow for spur or loop routes. If you want to go into specific wording, they didn't say to "allow WI-441 to become a loop route". So, it could be read either way. While it allows for such routes, it doesn't mean that there are plans to do it.

I can also someday see a push to reflag the US 45 West Bend Spur as (for lack of a better number) 'I-541'.  Ditto WI 172 east of US(I)-41 ('I-243'?).  There are already signs on the BGSes on US(I)-41 leading up to it (Ashwaubenon Interchange) that say "TO/I-43". 

Mike

[mgk920]

That was on the books for a while, and unrelated to the I-41 changes. In fact, the high-speed ramps have been in the planning stages long before I-41 was even a thing. So again, it's certainly possible, but WisDOT has a history of leaving well enough alone when it comes to route renumbering - especially in a situation where there aren't any governmental bodies asking for it to happen.

Exactly.  There are a number of instances where WIDOT most certainly could have renumbered to a 3di and have chosen not to.  I don't see it happening here either.

I agree, WisDOT's been planning these upgrades for many years, especially seeing as the current substandard four-lane bridge carries an AADT of about 80K.



Mike

[Molandfreak]

That was on the books for a while, and unrelated to the I-41 changes. In fact, the high-speed ramps have been in the planning stages long before I-41 was even a thing. So again, it's certainly possible, but WisDOT has a history of leaving well enough alone when it comes to route renumbering - especially in a situation where there aren't any governmental bodies asking for it to happen.

Exactly.  There are a number of instances where WIDOT most certainly could have renumbered to a 3di and have chosen not to.  I don't see it happening here either.

None of those instances involve a number akin to a true 3 digit interstate, so that argument is waaaaaayyyyyyyyy invalid.

[SSOWorld]

That was on the books for a while, and unrelated to the I-41 changes. In fact, the high-speed ramps have been in the planning stages long before I-41 was even a thing. So again, it's certainly possible, but WisDOT has a history of leaving well enough alone when it comes to route renumbering - especially in a situation where there aren't any governmental bodies asking for it to happen.

Exactly.  There are a number of instances where WIDOT most certainly could have renumbered to a 3di and have chosen not to.  I don't see it happening here either.

None of those instances involve a number akin to a true 3 digit interstate, so that argument is waaaaaayyyyyyyyy invalid.

Numbers are irrelavent - it's the location of and the role of the road that matters.  Argument valid.

[I-39]

That was on the books for a while, and unrelated to the I-41 changes. In fact, the high-speed ramps have been in the planning stages long before I-41 was even a thing. So again, it's certainly possible, but WisDOT has a history of leaving well enough alone when it comes to route renumbering - especially in a situation where there aren't any governmental bodies asking for it to happen.

Exactly.  There are a number of instances where WIDOT most certainly could have renumbered to a 3di and have chosen not to.  I don't see it happening here either.

None of those instances involve a number akin to a true 3 digit interstate, so that argument is waaaaaayyyyyyyyy invalid.

What instances are you talking about?

[Molandfreak]

That was on the books for a while, and unrelated to the I-41 changes. In fact, the high-speed ramps have been in the planning stages long before I-41 was even a thing. So again, it's certainly possible, but WisDOT has a history of leaving well enough alone when it comes to route renumbering - especially in a situation where there aren't any governmental bodies asking for it to happen.

Exactly.  There are a number of instances where WIDOT most certainly could have renumbered to a 3di and have chosen not to.  I don't see it happening here either.

None of those instances involve a number akin to a true 3 digit interstate, so that argument is waaaaaayyyyyyyyy invalid.

Numbers are irrelavent - it's the location of and the role of the road that matters.  Argument valid.

It still stands that none of them are full beltways. Not to mention that none of the freeways (except the Madison beltway) really serve a function that warrants an upgrade, at least in their current form.

[I-39]

That was on the books for a while, and unrelated to the I-41 changes. In fact, the high-speed ramps have been in the planning stages long before I-41 was even a thing. So again, it's certainly possible, but WisDOT has a history of leaving well enough alone when it comes to route renumbering - especially in a situation where there aren't any governmental bodies asking for it to happen.

Exactly.  There are a number of instances where WIDOT most certainly could have renumbered to a 3di and have chosen not to.  I don't see it happening here either.

None of those instances involve a number akin to a true 3 digit interstate, so that argument is waaaaaayyyyyyyyy invalid.

Numbers are irrelavent - it's the location of and the role of the road that matters.  Argument valid.

It still stands that none of them are full beltways. Not to mention that none of the freeways (except the Madison beltway) really serve a function that warrants an upgrade, at least in their current form.

The Madison Beltline will never get, nor does it need, a three digit Interstate. It already carries a number of high-quality US Highways.

[Molandfreak]

That was on the books for a while, and unrelated to the I-41 changes. In fact, the high-speed ramps have been in the planning stages long before I-41 was even a thing. So again, it's certainly possible, but WisDOT has a history of leaving well enough alone when it comes to route renumbering - especially in a situation where there aren't any governmental bodies asking for it to happen.

Exactly.  There are a number of instances where WIDOT most certainly could have renumbered to a 3di and have chosen not to.  I don't see it happening here either.

None of those instances involve a number akin to a true 3 digit interstate, so that argument is waaaaaayyyyyyyyy invalid.

Numbers are irrelavent - it's the location of and the role of the road that matters.  Argument valid.

It still stands that none of them are full beltways. Not to mention that none of the freeways (except the Madison beltway) really serve a function that warrants an upgrade, at least in their current form.

The Madison Beltline will never get, nor does it need, a three digit Interstate. It already carries a number of high-quality US Highways.

If the northern connection is ever finished, then that at least should get an interstate designation. Not to mention that unfamiliar drivers will know how to follow the freeway if it's upgraded in full.

[SEWIGuy]

That was on the books for a while, and unrelated to the I-41 changes. In fact, the high-speed ramps have been in the planning stages long before I-41 was even a thing. So again, it's certainly possible, but WisDOT has a history of leaving well enough alone when it comes to route renumbering - especially in a situation where there aren't any governmental bodies asking for it to happen.

Exactly.  There are a number of instances where WIDOT most certainly could have renumbered to a 3di and have chosen not to.  I don't see it happening here either.

None of those instances involve a number akin to a true 3 digit interstate, so that argument is waaaaaayyyyyyyyy invalid.

So your argument is that just because it would be the same number, that WIDOT will change WI-441 to I-441 even though they have shown no real desire to implement 3dis previously?

I doubt it.  They aren't going to go through the effort.

[Molandfreak]

shown no real desire to implement 3dis previously?

Quit that obvious nonsense. They have. Otherwise none of the x94s would exist.

[GeekJedi]

shown no real desire to implement 3dis previously?

Quit that obvious nonsense. They have. Otherwise none of the x94s would exist.

Those were implemented at the birth of the interstate system. Name any in Wisconsin that came after 1970?  Hint: None.

[Molandfreak]

shown no real desire to implement 3dis previously?

Quit that obvious nonsense. They have. Otherwise none of the x94s would exist.

Those were implemented at the birth of the interstate system. Name any in Wisconsin that came after 1970?  Hint: None.

Yawn. What makes you people think that fact means that they will never do it again? Just like Minnesota, the reason why no additions have been made is that there have been minimal freeways built that would make sense in the system. I-441 should happen because it's a beltway that would make sense in the system.

[hobsini2]

I agree Moland that I-441 is the most likely candidate. However, They could have I-x90 or I-x94 on Wis 30 and I-x94 on Wis 119 ages ago.

But don't worry my friend. I do designate 441 in the Interstate plan revision I am in the middle of doing. It's been about 2 years since I did the original Interstate plan. Stay tuned. I should have it up in a month or so.

[I-39]

shown no real desire to implement 3dis previously?

Quit that obvious nonsense. They have. Otherwise none of the x94s would exist.

Those were implemented at the birth of the interstate system. Name any in Wisconsin that came after 1970?  Hint: None.

Well, what routes (that are freeways and are full beltways) could have become 3-digit Interstates after 1970?  Not really any. For the first time in a long time, a full beltway freeway that connects (on both ends) to the same two digit Interstate actually exists in Wisconsin. That is WIS 441. I think it is very plausible that they will change it to I-441 at some point. Maybe not right away, but eventually. Elevating it from a state route number to an Interstate will help with commerce and tourism.

[GeekJedi]

Yawn. What makes you people think that fact means that they will never do it again? Just like Minnesota, the reason why no additions have been made is that there have been minimal freeways built that would make sense in the system. I-441 should happen because it's a beltway that would make sense in the system.

Probably the same thing that makes you think that it makes sense to change the sign on an existing highway because it bothers you.

[GeekJedi]

Elevating it from a state route number to an Interstate will help with commerce and tourism.

That's the argument that I don't understand. How will changing the color of a shield on a 10 mile stretch of road help commerce and tourism?

[I-39]

Elevating it from a state route number to an Interstate will help with commerce and tourism.

That's the argument that I don't understand. How will changing the color of a shield on a 10 mile stretch of road help commerce and tourism?

For the same reasons US 41 is being changed to I-41, it elevates the quality of the roadway. People don't always associate state routes with high-quality freeways, but they do with Interstates.

[GeekJedi]

For the same reasons US 41 is being changed to I-41, it elevates the quality of the roadway. People don't always associate state routes with high-quality freeways, but they do with Interstates.

I get the US 41/I-41 argument - that's a substantial piece of highway. 441 is a 10 mile loop though, one that doesn't really act as a bypass of anything...it's more of an "alternate" route. There is no economic case to be made for spending the money to re-sign it. In the age of GPS and Google Maps, this only makes sense for road fans who insist that DOT's should follow numbering to the "letter" whether or not it really makes a significant difference.

[I-39]

For the same reasons US 41 is being changed to I-41, it elevates the quality of the roadway. People don't always associate state routes with high-quality freeways, but they do with Interstates.

I get the US 41/I-41 argument - that's a substantial piece of highway. 441 is a 10 mile loop though, one that doesn't really act as a bypass of anything...it's more of an "alternate" route. There is no economic case to be made for spending the money to re-sign it. In the age of GPS and Google Maps, this only makes sense for road fans who insist that DOT's should follow numbering to the "letter" whether or not it really makes a significant difference.

So in other words, no three digit Interstate should ever be designated again anywhere? That is basically what I am getting from this.

[Molandfreak]

Elevating it from a state route number to an Interstate will help with commerce and tourism.

That's the argument that I don't understand. How will changing the color of a shield on a 10 mile stretch of road help commerce and tourism?

For the same reasons US 41 is being changed to I-41, it elevates the quality of the roadway. People don't always associate state routes with high-quality freeways, but they do with Interstates.

Yeah exactly. With WIS 441 and I-41, people are most likely going to assume that the state route is a surface route related to the interstate. With I-441, there will be no mistaking it for a good quality freeway.

[GeekJedi]

You still haven't told us *why* it needs to be "known" as a "good quality freeway". It's generally used as a route by locals, and every GPS I've ever known shows it as a highway.