US 41 in Appleton, Menasha and Neenah, Wisconsin

[GeekJedi]

So in other words, no three digit Interstate should ever be designated again anywhere? That is basically what I am getting from this.

No, in other words not every freeway off of an interstate needs to be a 3di just because.

[GeekJedi]

More importantly, we have plenty of other things we need to be spending our state's transportation budget on instead of paying for sign swaps because of some mental guideline that we can't seem to see past.

[I-39]

So in other words, no three digit Interstate should ever be designated again anywhere? That is basically what I am getting from this.

No, in other words not every freeway off of an interstate needs to be a 3di just because.

More importantly, we have plenty of other things we need to be spending our state's transportation budget on instead of paying for sign swaps because of some mental guideline that we can't seem to see past.

The cost of replacing the signs would be very minimal, so that is not an issue. Wisconsin wastes far more money on constructing pointless freeways/expressways and bypasses (like US 10 west of Steven's Point, WIS-26 between Janesville and Watertown, etc). I agree that not every freeway needs a three digit Interstate spur, but by your logic, every roadway that was elevated from a state route to a three digit Interstate was pointless. And going back to what I was saying before, WisDOT did state that I-41 allows for future spurs. I'm not sure why they would put that in the FAQ if they thought I-41 was to never get a spur.

[SEWIGuy]

I'm not saying they *shouldn't* sign it as I-441, I am just saying that I doubt it will happen.  I guess they could now decide to label US-45 to West Bend as a Spur and WI-173 as a loop as well. 

I just won't believe it until I see it.

[I-39]

I'm not saying they *shouldn't* sign it as I-441, I am just saying that I doubt it will happen.  I guess they could now decide to label US-45 to West Bend as a Spur and WI-173 as a loop as well. 

I just won't believe it until I see it.

Now those, I don't think need a spur route. US 45 is already a high quality US highway and it does not connect back to I-41. The only reason why converting WIS 441 to I-441 would make sense is because it is a business loop and it connects to I-41 on both ends.

[hobsini2]

I wouldn't call it a "business loop". It's just a bypass for the south and east side of Appleton. But it should be designated as I-441 when I-41 is officially signed.

The West Bend Frwy is perfectly fine remaining just as US 45.

I just wish in the signing process that roads that are expressways and freeways that aren't designated as Interstates would have some kind of indication of the condition of the road since a US highway or state highway can range so vastly.

[SEWIGuy]

I'm not saying they *shouldn't* sign it as I-441, I am just saying that I doubt it will happen.  I guess they could now decide to label US-45 to West Bend as a Spur and WI-173 as a loop as well. 

I just won't believe it until I see it.

Now those, I don't think need a spur route. US 45 is already a high quality US highway and it does not connect back to I-41. The only reason why converting WIS 441 to I-441 would make sense is because it is a business loop and it connects to I-41 on both ends.

Actually I think US-45 as a Spur route makes sense.  You mentioned earlier the supposed economic impact value of a red, white and blue shield.  The Jackson and West Bend areas have benefited greatly from the US-45 freeway.  Could they benefit even further if it were I-341?

[I-39]

I'm not saying they *shouldn't* sign it as I-441, I am just saying that I doubt it will happen.  I guess they could now decide to label US-45 to West Bend as a Spur and WI-173 as a loop as well. 

I just won't believe it until I see it.

Now those, I don't think need a spur route. US 45 is already a high quality US highway and it does not connect back to I-41. The only reason why converting WIS 441 to I-441 would make sense is because it is a business loop and it connects to I-41 on both ends.

Actually I think US-45 as a Spur route makes sense.  You mentioned earlier the supposed economic impact value of a red, white and blue shield.  The Jackson and West Bend areas have benefited greatly from the US-45 freeway.  Could they benefit even further if it were I-341?

Maybe, but it already carries the US 45 designation. The thing about designating WIS 441 as I-441 would be that it would replace WIS 441, not be signed concurrently. I only believe a spur should be designated if it's a replacement for a route number, not in addition to it (hence, why I am opposed to designating the Madison Beltline an Interstate spur)

[hobsini2]

I'm not saying they *shouldn't* sign it as I-441, I am just saying that I doubt it will happen.  I guess they could now decide to label US-45 to West Bend as a Spur and WI-173 as a loop as well. 

I just won't believe it until I see it.

Now those, I don't think need a spur route. US 45 is already a high quality US highway and it does not connect back to I-41. The only reason why converting WIS 441 to I-441 would make sense is because it is a business loop and it connects to I-41 on both ends.

Actually I think US-45 as a Spur route makes sense.  You mentioned earlier the supposed economic impact value of a red, white and blue shield.  The Jackson and West Bend areas have benefited greatly from the US-45 freeway.  Could they benefit even further if it were I-341?

Maybe, but it already carries the US 45 designation. The thing about designating WIS 441 as I-441 would be that it would replace WIS 441, not be signed concurrently. I only believe a spur should be designated if it's a replacement for a route number, not in addition to it (hence, why I am opposed to designating the Madison Beltline an Interstate spur)

With the northern I-37, the Beltline wouldn't be an Interstate spur or loop. lol

[GeekJedi]

What I keep reading here is "it makes sense". To whom? My parents live in Neenah, and this will make absolutely no difference in their lives. It will make no difference to the person plugging the destination address in a GPS and gets routed through there. It will make no difference to anyone traveling past Appleton as it's not really a "bypass" and saves no significant time. So again, what is the reasoning?

[bugo]

Elevating it from a state route number to an Interstate will help with commerce and tourism.

That's the argument that I don't understand. How will changing the color of a shield on a 10 mile stretch of road help commerce and tourism?

For the same reasons US 41 is being changed to I-41, it elevates the quality of the roadway.

Posting a sign improves the quality of the pavement? What is your hypothesis for this theory?

don't always associate state routes with high-quality freeways, but they do with Interstates.

There are plenty of interstates I could list that are far from high quality freeways.

[I-39]

What I keep reading here is "it makes sense". To whom? My parents live in Neenah, and this will make absolutely no difference in their lives. It will make no difference to the person plugging the destination address in a GPS and gets routed through there. It will make no difference to anyone traveling past Appleton as it's not really a "bypass" and saves no significant time. So again, what is the reasoning?

Ok then, by that logic, why does ANY Interstate spur exist? Heck, why does US 41 even need an Interstate? It survived many years without being an Interstate (it wasn't even a full freeway until about 15 or so years ago) and Green Bay is already serviced by I-43, so it's not like Green Bay needs to be serviced by another Interstate. It certainly makes no difference to people using GPS.............

[I-39]

Elevating it from a state route number to an Interstate will help with commerce and tourism.

That's the argument that I don't understand. How will changing the color of a shield on a 10 mile stretch of road help commerce and tourism?

For the same reasons US 41 is being changed to I-41, it elevates the quality of the roadway.

Posting a sign improves the quality of the pavement? What is your hypothesis for this theory?

don't always associate state routes with high-quality freeways, but they do with Interstates.

There are plenty of interstates I could list that are far from high quality freeways.

Elevating a route to Interstate status forces any future reconstruction to be up to Interstate standards. So of course there are many Interstates that may not be high quality freeway, but any future reconstruction along those routes would force it to become high quality freeway, since it is an Interstate and Interstates have the highest standards when it comes to construction.

[SEWIGuy]

What I keep reading here is "it makes sense". To whom? My parents live in Neenah, and this will make absolutely no difference in their lives. It will make no difference to the person plugging the destination address in a GPS and gets routed through there. It will make no difference to anyone traveling past Appleton as it's not really a "bypass" and saves no significant time. So again, what is the reasoning?

Ok then, by that logic, why does ANY Interstate spur exist? Heck, why does US 41 even need an Interstate? It survived many years without being an Interstate (it wasn't even a full freeway until about 15 or so years ago) and Green Bay is already serviced by I-43, so it's not like Green Bay needs to be serviced by another Interstate. It certainly makes no difference to people using GPS.............

The original purpose of even 3dis were to provide alternate routes to driving through the middle of a big city.  I-894 accomplishes this.  I-294 in Illinois does too.  WI-441 doesn't do this.  I-41 doesn't go through Appleton's center.  It goes around downtown, just like WI-441.

[SSOWorld]

Tell that to I-244 through Tulsa, I-490 through Rochester, NY.

[Molandfreak]

What I keep reading here is "it makes sense". To whom? My parents live in Neenah, and this will make absolutely no difference in their lives. It will make no difference to the person plugging the destination address in a GPS and gets routed through there. It will make no difference to anyone traveling past Appleton as it's not really a "bypass" and saves no significant time. So again, what is the reasoning?

You are simply not opening your mind to understanding our position on the matter. Read our posts.  Until then I'm done trying to argue with the worst of NIMBYism: no change for the sake of no change.

[triplemultiplex]

You know, WisDOT is going to end up replacing nearly half the signage on WI 441 anyway as part of the massive expansion/reconstruction project, so it would be an easy opportunity for promotion.

I am of the opinion that all loop/belt freeways should be interstates since they provide an important national function as obvious alternative freeway routes for inter-regional traffic.  And in some metro areas they provide direct interstate access to large suburbs.

WI 441 is a small-scale version of what's wrong with TN 840, CO 470 and a couple of Phoenix's loops, as examples.

This last point may be subjective, but I feel like having a 3di "legitimizes" an interstate route.  Not as if a lack of any makes an interstate less important, but having one really drives home that this is an important corridor; so important that it needs a spur and/or a loop to properly serve the area.

[I-39]

You know, WisDOT is going to end up replacing nearly half the signage on WI 441 anyway as part of the massive expansion/reconstruction project, so it would be an easy opportunity for promotion.

I am of the opinion that all loop/belt freeways should be interstates since they provide an important national function as obvious alternative freeway routes for inter-regional traffic.  And in some metro areas they provide direct interstate access to large suburbs.

WI 441 is a small-scale version of what's wrong with TN 840, CO 470 and a couple of Phoenix's loops, as examples.

This last point may be subjective, but I feel like having a 3di "legitimizes" an interstate route.  Not as if a lack of any makes an interstate less important, but having one really drives home that this is an important corridor; so important that it needs a spur and/or a loop to properly serve the area.

Exactly! Well said!

[SEWIGuy]

What I keep reading here is "it makes sense". To whom? My parents live in Neenah, and this will make absolutely no difference in their lives. It will make no difference to the person plugging the destination address in a GPS and gets routed through there. It will make no difference to anyone traveling past Appleton as it's not really a "bypass" and saves no significant time. So again, what is the reasoning?

You are simply not opening your mind to understanding our position on the matter. Read our posts.  Until then I'm done trying to argue with the worst of NIMBYism: no change for the sake of no change.

It has nothing to do with NIMBYism.  And I think you are smart enough to know that.

[SSOWorld]

Whatever it may be, I-441 will not be happening anytime soon.  It was enough to see I-41 happen because politicians spoke-up.  FHWA and AASHTO are not interested in seeing more Interstates being designated and the fact is...

a road is a road is a road is a road is a road is a road is a road is a road is a road.

[hobsini2]

Whatever it may be, I-441 will not be happening anytime soon.  It was enough to see I-41 happen because politicians spoke-up.  FHWA and AASHTO are not interested in seeing more Interstates being designated and the fact is...

a road is a road is a road is a road is a road is a road is a road is a road is a road.

If there is a push by local businesses and politicians, I could easily see 441 be designated as an Interstate.

[hobsini2]

You know, WisDOT is going to end up replacing nearly half the signage on WI 441 anyway as part of the massive expansion/reconstruction project, so it would be an easy opportunity for promotion.

I am of the opinion that all loop/belt freeways should be interstates since they provide an important national function as obvious alternative freeway routes for inter-regional traffic.  And in some metro areas they provide direct interstate access to large suburbs.

WI 441 is a small-scale version of what's wrong with TN 840, CO 470 and a couple of Phoenix's loops, as examples.

This last point may be subjective, but I feel like having a 3di "legitimizes" an interstate route.  Not as if a lack of any makes an interstate less important, but having one really drives home that this is an important corridor; so important that it needs a spur and/or a loop to properly serve the area.

And let's not forget that Appleton is not the only city in the area with traffic that 441 serves as an alternate. If I was coming from Oshkosh on 41, if I wanted to avoid Downtown Neenah and Downtown Menasha to get east on 114 or 10, 441 would be the way to do it.

[GeekJedi]

If there is a push by local businesses and politicians, I could easily see 441 be designated as an Interstate.

I totally agree. WisDOT didn't push for I-41, the local businesses and politicians did. Had they not, we'd still be driving along US 41 for the next several years. WisDOT won't push for I-441 either, but will do it if the local residents and governments ask. It's one of the things I appreciate about WisDOT - they take a pragmatic "technical" approach to upgrades instead of slapping on new signs because they can. They seem to understand that renumbering for renumbering's sake is not the best approach to managing a network of roads.

However, they do go out of their way to accomodate local biz and governments, as they should.

[bugo]

But this wouldn't be a renumbering. I'm usually against slapping up interstate signs just because a road is a freeway, but this one wouldn't cause any confusion or address changes because it's the same number. Since it is Wisconsin, maybe it would be dual signed I-441/WI 441.

[mgk920]

You know, WisDOT is going to end up replacing nearly half the signage on WI 441 anyway as part of the massive expansion/reconstruction project, so it would be an easy opportunity for promotion.

I am of the opinion that all loop/belt freeways should be interstates since they provide an important national function as obvious alternative freeway routes for inter-regional traffic.  And in some metro areas they provide direct interstate access to large suburbs.

WI 441 is a small-scale version of what's wrong with TN 840, CO 470 and a couple of Phoenix's loops, as examples.

This last point may be subjective, but I feel like having a 3di "legitimizes" an interstate route.  Not as if a lack of any makes an interstate less important, but having one really drives home that this is an important corridor; so important that it needs a spur and/or a loop to properly serve the area.

And let's not forget that Appleton is not the only city in the area with traffic that 441 serves as an alternate. If I was coming from Oshkosh on 41, if I wanted to avoid Downtown Neenah and Downtown Menasha to get east on 114 or 10, 441 would be the way to do it.

If nothing else, WI 441 is more of a bypass/alternate for Menasha and Neenah than it is for Appleton, for which it is more of an 'access facilitator' (ditto for the eastern suburbs south of the Fox River).  I use US10/WI 441 a LOT in getting to and from my place in the downtown Appleton area from the southwest.

I have been pushing WisDOT for major US 10 upgrades east of Appleton, including rerouting it to follow County 'CE' east from WI 441 and then towards Forest Junction, for many years now, essentially completing its bypass of Appleton, too.

Mike