Expressways vs. freeways: I wish Michigan had more expressways.

[A.J. Bertin]

Ever since I've learned through the road enthusiasts community what the difference is between expressways and freeways (periodic at-grade intersections vs. full access control), I've kinda started wishing that Michigan had more expressways. Ohio and Indiana both seem to have quite a few of those, but Michigan has very few. They are quite nifty.

Any thoughts?

[3467]

Most states build them for routes that just don't have the traffic volume to support a freeway. That is probably most rural arterials in the country now .
Illinois once had a fantasy about building all freeways. I have no idea why Michigan and MI alone seems not to build them. MI does have a lot of freeways? Does MI have a policy based on traffic volume? Many states do. Most rural Illinois expressways under study are in corridors that average 2-7000 vpd.
Maybe Michigan thinks it to low to justify

[Alps]

WV calls them freeways anyway.

[NE2]

Florida sucks at access control.

[froggie]

Not just Florida...most southeastern states suck at access control, period.  The main exceptions have been some new-alignment highways in Mississippi, Georgia, and North Carolina.

Alabama and South Carolina are probably the worst.

[Brandon]

Ever since I've learned through the road enthusiasts community what the difference is between expressways and freeways (periodic at-grade intersections vs. full access control), I've kinda started wishing that Michigan had more expressways. Ohio and Indiana both seem to have quite a few of those, but Michigan has very few. They are quite nifty.

Any thoughts?

There are places Michigan could use them, and most of them are up north.  I could see expressways instead of freeways on the following:

US-10 west of Clare
US-12 across the southern counties (New Buffalo to Ypsi)
Parts of US-2 in the UP
Parts of US-41 in the UP
Parts of M-28 in the UP
US-31 Luddington to Mackinaw City
US-131 Manton to Petoskey
US-23 Standish to Mackinaw City

The traffic counts aren't high enough to justify a freeway, but they are used by enough traffic to warrant something more than 2 lanes, at least in part.

[mgk920]

WisDOT has a long history of 'expressway' building.  In Wisconsin, the 'S.O.P.' is to build the new rural four-lane highway as an upgradable 'expressway' (some parts even as 'super-two expressways') and then add the full freeway upgrades as traffic warrants and funding allows.  That was the story with US(I)-41 in the length of the state since the 1930s, as well as the ongoing story for other roads such as US 10, US 41 north of Green Bay, US 53, US 151, WI 23, WI 26, WI 29, etc.

IMHO, this is a very economical way of doing things.

Mike

[Rick Powell]

Ever since I've learned through the road enthusiasts community what the difference is between expressways and freeways (periodic at-grade intersections vs. full access control), I've kinda started wishing that Michigan had more expressways. Ohio and Indiana both seem to have quite a few of those, but Michigan has very few. They are quite nifty.

Any thoughts?

Be careful what you wish for.  The US 51 expressway (south of Bloomington/Normal, IL) is a case study in the "express" part of expressway being thwarted by stoplights at crossroads and new developments and slow zones through municipalities.  It will eventually connect B/N with I-64 south of Centralia, and is being studied and built piecemeal.  There are still 60 miles or so of 2 lane to be converted, and it's currently going at a pace of about 5 miles a decade.

[Rick Powell]

Of course, the old US 66 expressway in IL worked pretty well for moving traffic, especially at 70 mph where it was posted before Nixon's 55 mph reduction.  However, that first stoplight at Dwight (IL 47) was a crash magnet for travelers from Chicago who didn't expect to see it.

[agentsteel53]

Of course, the old US 66 expressway in IL worked pretty well for moving traffic, especially at 70 mph where it was posted before Nixon's 55 mph reduction.  However, that first stoplight at Dwight (IL 47) was a crash magnet for travelers from Chicago who didn't expect to see it.

and that's why one should never put traffic lights on high-speed expressways.  CA-99 has several north of Sacramento, and also there's the notorious one on TX-71 east of Austin heading to the airport that has a three second yellow on what is otherwise a full freeway.

[jwolfer]

Florida sucks at access control.

Amen.  Rural 4 lanes that at one time worked really well become clogged with suburban development and targets and publix... a nice exception is Thomasville Road/US 319 North of Tallahassee

[agentsteel53]

Amen.  Rural 4 lanes that at one time worked really well become clogged with suburban development and targets and publix... a nice exception is Thomasville Road/US 319 North of Tallahassee

I believe US-27 is like that for many sections as well.  it's a pretty quick way for getting from Tallahassee to US-19.

[hobsini2]

Not just Florida...most southeastern states suck at access control, period.  The main exceptions have been some new-alignment highways in Mississippi, Georgia, and North Carolina.

Alabama and South Carolina are probably the worst.

While they may suck at the expressway concept, they do a very nice job of 4 laners such as US 82 in Georgia and US 280 in Alabama. Even with signals and crossroads on them, Tifton-Albany-Columbus-Auburn-Birmingham is still quicker for traffic going to/from Florida and Nashville because Atlanta traffic is such a bitch.  IMO worse than Chicago and New York.

[3467]

I was told Illinois is now controlling new access on almost all its roads. They want development to use side streets for access even on the 2 lanes.
Maybe Rick Powell or other have heard about it.
Back to MI I remember seeing a map of proposed expressways post interstate like Iowa once did I will see if I have it

[Brandon]

I was told Illinois is now controlling new access on almost all its roads. They want development to use side streets for access even on the 2 lanes.
Maybe Rick Powell or other have heard about it.
Back to MI I remember seeing a map of proposed expressways post interstate like Iowa once did I will see if I have it

IDOT has been posting the "Notice: Freeway" signs along these roads.  I don't have a photograph of one, but here's GSV of one along US-30 in Kendall County: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.721838,-88.438847&spn=0.002158,0.005284&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.721841,-88.438752&panoid=eJJx_63SvC6kx1XhvglRyQ&cbp=12,187.57,,2,4.02

[theline]

I was told Illinois is now controlling new access on almost all its roads. They want development to use side streets for access even on the 2 lanes.
Maybe Rick Powell or other have heard about it.
Back to MI I remember seeing a map of proposed expressways post interstate like Iowa once did I will see if I have it

IDOT has been posting the "Notice: Freeway" signs along these roads.  I don't have a photograph of one, but here's GSV of one along US-30 in Kendall County: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.721838,-88.438847&spn=0.002158,0.005284&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.721841,-88.438752&panoid=eJJx_63SvC6kx1XhvglRyQ&cbp=12,187.57,,2,4.02

Wow, that sign takes me back. I recall signs like those marking the edge of ROW on the first freeway I rode as a child back in the late '50s, I-75 near Lima, OH. I didn't know they were still in use anywhere. Is there some sort of legal purpose at work there, like warning folks not to try building a private drive?

[3467]

I remember those too back in the 70s. I thought they were related to supplemental freeways but found out it was broader than that . I have a map from 1972.
I thought they have it up . Recently I have seen only a few rusted old signs. That one looks new. They quietly revived the idea. I am not complaining it is a good one

[Rick Powell]

I was told Illinois is now controlling new access on almost all its roads. They want development to use side streets for access even on the 2 lanes.
Maybe Rick Powell or other have heard about it.
Back to MI I remember seeing a map of proposed expressways post interstate like Iowa once did I will see if I have it

IDOT has been posting the "Notice: Freeway" signs along these roads.  I don't have a photograph of one, but here's GSV of one along US-30 in Kendall County: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=41.721838,-88.438847&spn=0.002158,0.005284&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=41.721841,-88.438752&panoid=eJJx_63SvC6kx1XhvglRyQ&cbp=12,187.57,,2,4.02

AFAIK, no new IDOT policy on restricting private access on its arterials.  There are setback policies for driveways from adjacent side streets, etc. in its Access Manual,  and the Strategic Regional Arterial program, which tried to limit and combine accesses with varied (mostly unsuccessful) results.  The "Freeway" notice signs have been around for awhile...I remember seeing one on IL 17 in the early 70's when I was a kid helping to gather soil samples for FAP 412 (now I-39).  Some of them have been decommissioned.  In IL state law, "freeway" has a different legal definition than the most common one for a fully access controlled highway.

[agentsteel53]

Wow, that sign takes me back. I recall signs like those marking the edge of ROW on the first freeway I rode as a child back in the late '50s, I-75 near Lima, OH. I didn't know they were still in use anywhere. Is there some sort of legal purpose at work there, like warning folks not to try building a private drive?

there are plenty in California, all placed prior to 1975 or so.  that is indeed their purpose: that all access work must be cleared by the nearest DOT office, whose address helpfully placed on the sign.  the signs are all porcelain, explaining their durability.

I have seen some ancient ones in North Dakota along US-85 - wood, decrepit, barely legible.  Probably 1960s.  They do not call the road a FREEWAY but do note that access is restricted.  I've also seen them in other states but I don't remember them as distinctly.  Montana comes to mind.

[JREwing78]

Ever since I've learned through the road enthusiasts community what the difference is between expressways and freeways (periodic at-grade intersections vs. full access control), I've kinda started wishing that Michigan had more expressways. Ohio and Indiana both seem to have quite a few of those, but Michigan has very few. They are quite nifty.

Any thoughts?

There are places Michigan could use them, and most of them are up north.  I could see expressways instead of freeways on the following:

US-10 west of Clare
US-12 across the southern counties (New Buffalo to Ypsi)
Parts of US-2 in the UP
Parts of US-41 in the UP
Parts of M-28 in the UP
US-31 Luddington to Mackinaw City
US-131 Manton to Petoskey
US-23 Standish to Mackinaw City

The traffic counts aren't high enough to justify a freeway, but they are used by enough traffic to warrant something more than 2 lanes, at least in part.

I'll add a couple others:
- US-127/US-223 between Jackson and Toledo
- US-131 south of Portage to the Toll Road
- M-53 between Romeo and Imlay City
- M-115 between US-10 and M-37, then M-37 north to Traverse City

I would also say US-2 between Iron Mountain and St. Ignace merits one. Yes, the entire length

Michigan is a rather odd case.  They made many of the highways that would qualify (US-31 north of Muskegon, US-131 north of Reed City, etc) full freeways instead. But then when they started seeing the light on the merits of these types of highways, they ran out of money to build them. How else to explain the overwhelmed US-127 between M-50 and US-12 in Jackson County?

They also didn't get on the access-control bandwagon soon enough. US-127 between Mason and Jackson and US-23 between Brighton and Ann Arbor got converted to freeway soon enough to avoid lots of relocations. However, other stretches like US-127 between St. Johns & Ithaca did not. They're slowly correcting this issue on this stretch, but others they were forced to bypass (US-27/M-78 between Charlotte and Perry, US-127 between Dewitt & St. Johns, etc).

[A.J. Bertin]

Ever since I've learned through the road enthusiasts community what the difference is between expressways and freeways (periodic at-grade intersections vs. full access control), I've kinda started wishing that Michigan had more expressways. Ohio and Indiana both seem to have quite a few of those, but Michigan has very few. They are quite nifty.

Any thoughts?

There are places Michigan could use them, and most of them are up north.  I could see expressways instead of freeways on the following:

US-10 west of Clare
US-12 across the southern counties (New Buffalo to Ypsi)
Parts of US-2 in the UP
Parts of US-41 in the UP
Parts of M-28 in the UP
US-31 Luddington to Mackinaw City
US-131 Manton to Petoskey
US-23 Standish to Mackinaw City

The traffic counts aren't high enough to justify a freeway, but they are used by enough traffic to warrant something more than 2 lanes, at least in part.

I'll add a couple others:
- US-127/US-223 between Jackson and Toledo
- US-131 south of Portage to the Toll Road
- M-53 between Romeo and Imlay City
- M-115 between US-10 and M-37, then M-37 north to Traverse City

I would also say US-2 between Iron Mountain and St. Ignace merits one. Yes, the entire length

Michigan is a rather odd case.  They made many of the highways that would qualify (US-31 north of Muskegon, US-131 north of Reed City, etc) full freeways instead. But then when they started seeing the light on the merits of these types of highways, they ran out of money to build them. How else to explain the overwhelmed US-127 between M-50 and US-12 in Jackson County?

They also didn't get on the access-control bandwagon soon enough. US-127 between Mason and Jackson and US-23 between Brighton and Ann Arbor got converted to freeway soon enough to avoid lots of relocations. However, other stretches like US-127 between St. Johns & Ithaca did not. They're slowly correcting this issue on this stretch, but others they were forced to bypass (US-27/M-78 between Charlotte and Perry, US-127 between Dewitt & St. Johns, etc).

All those suggestions are great.

I should clarify my original post. I didn't mean to say that I wish the number of expressways Michigan had should be higher than the number of freeways it currently has. Michigan's current freeway network is pretty sufficient overall. I just meant to say that I wish Michigan would use expressways more often than it currently does. They are rather fun to drive on, in my opinion.

[triplemultiplex]

I think states should go for the full access control option whenever possible on these intrastate corridors simply because I am not a fan of having cross traffic on a 70 mph facility.  It also means no farm vehicles or horse and buggies (WI 29, Clark County).  So in that respect, I gotta give it up for MI.  They didn't beat around the bush.  Same for Ohio when the they upgraded most of US 30 & 35.

At the very least, there should be more foresight when it comes to locating businesses along rural expressways.  They generate turning traffic and make intersections more dangerous.
In one case in Wisconsin, a single gas station is probably what made a rural expressway intersection unsafe enough to warrant construction of a $1.8 million overpass.  I'm talking about the first at grade north of Merrill on US 51:
http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/opencms/export/nr/modules/news/news_3939.html_786229440.html
The owners should've tried to score a parcel by the CTH K interchange just south of there.

[NE2]

I think states should go for the full access control option whenever possible on these intrastate corridors simply because I am not a fan of having cross traffic on a 70 mph facility.  It also means no farm vehicles or horse and buggies (WI 29, Clark County).

No it doesn't, unless there's a state law restricting traffic on freeways.

[mrose]

Wisconsin generally executes the expressway concept well. In most cases you get freeway-grade bypasses. I found it infinitely easier to get from one end of the state to the other once 29 and 151 came into being.

[mgk920]

I think states should go for the full access control option whenever possible on these intrastate corridors simply because I am not a fan of having cross traffic on a 70 mph facility.  It also means no farm vehicles or horse and buggies (WI 29, Clark County).  So in that respect, I gotta give it up for MI.  They didn't beat around the bush.  Same for Ohio when the they upgraded most of US 30 & 35.

At the very least, there should be more foresight when it comes to locating businesses along rural expressways.  They generate turning traffic and make intersections more dangerous.
In one case in Wisconsin, a single gas station is probably what made a rural expressway intersection unsafe enough to warrant construction of a $1.8 million overpass.  I'm talking about the first at grade north of Merrill on US 51:
http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/opencms/export/nr/modules/news/news_3939.html_786229440.html
The owners should've tried to score a parcel by the CTH K interchange just south of there.

Agreed.  I'll be happily watching that building crumble every time that I infrequently drive by it.

Now to get rid of that other minor cross road a short distance to the north (Lincoln Dr - IMHO it should simply be cut off), that would be a significant extension of that freeway.



Mike