AARoads Forum

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/13/shares-of-albertsons-jump-on-report-of-potential-merger-with-grocery-giant-kroger.html

I wonder if they will be forced to divest Safeway as a condition of the merger.

My guess is that the government will look at this one for a while.  The knee jerk reaction is to think the current crew hates "big companies" .  True or not, it loves it some Big Labor, and this creates a big unionized competitor to union free Wal-Mart.

If you look at a map of their operations, there are places where they overlap each other greatly and would have unacceptable market shares, and places where one or the other is unknown.  My guess is that they will have to sell of a list of stores in different places, leaving an (almost) truly national grocery chain for the first time in our history. 

The stock market play, as always in these deals, is to figure out who is going to be sold the overlapping stores, as these transactions are often for below value.  Ahold seems likely for some.  The other potential buyers aren't stock companies.

Quote from: SP Cook on October 14, 2022, 08:45:33 AM
My guess is that the government will look at this one for a while.  The knee jerk reaction is to think the current crew hates "big companies" .  True or not, it loves it some Big Labor, and this creates a big unionized competitor to union free Wal-Mart.

If you look at a map of their operations, there are places where they overlap each other greatly and would have unacceptable market shares, and places where one or the other is unknown.  My guess is that they will have to sell of a list of stores in different places, leaving an (almost) truly national grocery chain for the first time in our history. 

The stock market play, as always in these deals, is to figure out who is going to be sold the overlapping stores, as these transactions are often for below value.  Ahold seems likely for some.  The other potential buyers aren't stock companies.

The resulting merged company would be truly huge with over 5,000 locations, so I can't see Kroger keeping them all. I would imagine that the excess stores would be sold to regional chains, similar to what happened when Food Lion merged with Ahold - excess Food Lion and Martin's/Giant stores were sold to other chains, most notably Publix.

(https://y.yarn.co/2f096968-3e66-4d78-afb3-130f79d2ff65_text.gif)

It's been announced officially: https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/14/business/kroger-albertsons-merger

They see themselves spinning off about 400 stores.

Quote from: elsmere241 on October 14, 2022, 10:05:21 AM

They see themselves spinning off about 400 stores.

That is Kroger's opening proposal.  A single entity owned by the old Albertson's stock holders containing the overlapping stores. 

Wells-Fargo on the other hand thinks Kroger will have to sell off more stores, about 550 and do so region by region.  W-F is probably correct, a 450 store company with stores in random unconnected places (Texas, inter mountain West, SoCal, DC-BAL, Chicago) would be unwieldy.  Selling a region off to a big chain that doesn't do business there, would make more sense.

It would be a disaster in Chicagoland, especially considering the fact that we've barely recovered from all of the Dominick's being shuttered at the end of 2013.  Kroger would have to decide between shuttering or selling off the Jewel-Osco locations (I assume they'd rather do that than shutter or sell off Mariano's, Food 4 Less, and Roundy's).

Quote from: abefroman329 on October 14, 2022, 02:26:46 PM
Jewel-Osco locations

I've been assured that the chain is called "Jewel's" because there are more than one of them.

Quote from: kphoger on October 14, 2022, 02:30:52 PM

Quote from: abefroman329 on October 14, 2022, 02:26:46 PM
Jewel-Osco locations

I've been assured that the chain is called "Jewel's" because there are more than one of them.

:-D

Quote from: SP Cook on October 14, 2022, 08:45:33 AM


If you look at a map of their operations, there are places where they overlap each other greatly and would have unacceptable market shares, and places where one or the other is unknown.  My guess is that they will have to sell of a list of stores in different places, leaving an (almost) truly national grocery chain for the first time in our history. 

At its peak A&P had over 15,000 grocery stores.

The Safeway/Albertsons merger a while ago managed to leave a lot of Washington worse off in terms of selection and store availability. In my area alone, an Albertson's a few miles between two Safeways was shuttered and Haggen (which bought up many of the overlapping stores) went bankrupt.

This would be a good time for the likes of Publix, HEB, or HyVee to start picking up market share. HyVee, especially, could end up with a fair number of Chicago-area stores.

Or heck, Amazon could end up with a large number of stores and start doing more expansion of either Amazon Fresh or Whole Foods.

Quote from: SP Cook on October 14, 2022, 10:35:50 AM

Quote from: elsmere241 on October 14, 2022, 10:05:21 AM

They see themselves spinning off about 400 stores.

That is Kroger’s opening proposal.  A single entity owned by the old Albertson’s stock holders containing the overlapping stores. 

Wells-Fargo on the other hand thinks Kroger will have to sell off more stores, about 550 and do so region by region.  W-F is probably correct, a 450 store company with stores in random unconnected places (Texas, inter mountain West, SoCal, DC-BAL, Chicago) would be unwieldy.  Selling a region off to a big chain that doesn’t do business there, would make more sense.

Considering that Publix already has stores in Virginia, they could very well end up with every non-Harris Teeter branded store in the DC metro area. On the West Coast, Raley's and Save-Mart could end up with stores in CA, NV, AZ, even UT.

Another corporate merger the government will rubber-stamp.

Quote from: abefroman329 on October 14, 2022, 02:26:46 PM
It would be a disaster in Chicagoland, especially considering the fact that we've barely recovered from all of the Dominick's being shuttered at the end of 2013.  Kroger would have to decide between shuttering or selling off the Jewel-Osco locations (I assume they'd rather do that than shutter or sell off Mariano's, Food 4 Less, and Roundy's).

I always thought Jewel-Osco was cool because I thought it had something to do with Oscar the Grouch.

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on October 14, 2022, 03:54:22 PM

Quote from: SP Cook on October 14, 2022, 08:45:33 AM


If you look at a map of their operations, there are places where they overlap each other greatly and would have unacceptable market shares, and places where one or the other is unknown.  My guess is that they will have to sell of a list of stores in different places, leaving an (almost) truly national grocery chain for the first time in our history. 

At its peak A&P had over 15,000 grocery stores.

But back then, A&P stores, like most major grocers from that era, were only a fraction of the size of most major grocers today, so naturally there were more of them.

I don't think this has much impact in Northern Nevada.  Albertson's has some Safeways and Kroger has some Smith's Food and Drug stores, but neither is a market leader.  Walmart and Raley's are probably the two biggest players and Save Mart is also around (similar presence as Safeway and Smith's).

Kroger already has two banners in the NW (QFC and Fred Meyer).  There won't be much competition, and the cost of living in Seattle is already higher than average.

It should have minimal effect in the Northeast, with the nearest Kroger locations being in Virginia and Ohio. The Albertson's stores: Acme and Shaw's/Star Market, have their footprints.  Acme is mostly the Delaware Valley and NJ with some stores as far north at lower Fairfield County, CT and Putnam County, NY and down into northeast MD and DE as a result of the acquisition of former A&P locations, Shaw's/Star is mostly Eastern MA, RI and northern New England.  Most of NY state has neither. 

People always blow bubbles with bubble gum at our local Kroger.

Plus, there was one time about 4 years ago, I went to Kroger, and some kid who was about 10 years old threw a huge, profanity-laced temper tantrum that lasted a half-hour because he got a lousy toy from a vending machine.

In Arizona, I can see some of the older non-Marketplace Fry's stores being sold, as well some Albertsons or Safeway stores that are in close proximity to a Fry's Marketplace.

In the Philly area, Albertsons owns Acme.  Acme tends to be a higher priced store, so the merger is generally being looked at as a good thing, hoping Kroger will bring prices down a bit.

In New Mexico, Kroger owns Smith's. About a year ago, I went to New Mexico and went to a Smith's in Los Alamos, and they had the same signs that Kroger has with the cartoon people. But this Smith's was weird, because people marched in lockstep instead of dancing all around.

I actually don't think this will change much in Utah as Albertsons has very little in the way of market share. Their only presence in northern Utah is that they own Lucky, which has a handful of locations around Salt Lake. Almost all the Albertsons locations in Utah were sold off to Salt Lake City-based Associated Food Stores several years back, who turned them into Fresh Markets (about half are still open). The only remaining Albertsons in the state are two locations in the St George area, and I don't think we ever had any Safeways to begin with.

Meanwhile, Kroger owns Smith's, which is also based in SLC and is probably the biggest player in Utah's grocery store market.

Long ago (up until the mid-1980s) Safeway was a major player in Salt Lake.

In Colorado, Safeway and King Sooper/City Market are THE competitors in most cities, with Walmart Supercenters a nearby 3rd in some towns and Target just a blip.

In Western CO, Safeway/Albertsons has been slowly leaving the market, leaving the grocery biz to Walmart and Kroger (King/City) to duke it out.

Comparing the two, Safeway has always been more expensive than Kroger, and the staff don't seem to be as friendly as those in Kroger stores -- not as much staff eother.  As far as being busy, it is night and day, with Kroger always busy and most Safeways usually ghost towns.

And as far as advertising in this region, Safeway pretty much advertises thru the weekly newspaper inserts.  Kroger does the weekly ads, but they bombard you with TV and some radio ads as well.

Colorado will likely see a lot of post-merger store closures as many Krogers are practically neighbors with Safeways. 

I almost forgot that Albertson's now owns the Shaws/Star Markets in New England, making them subject to this deal. IMO, this merger can only be a good thing, as the incumbent stores tend to be more expensive, have lesser quality product, and in many cases look as though they haven't been updated since the 1980s/early 1990s.

In Northwest Indiana, there are no Kroger stores. There are a couple Jewel/Osco, owned by Albertson's. The largest market share is Strack & Van Tyl, which is locally owned. Aldi, Meijer and Wal-mart are probably with Jewel/Osco in the next tier after Strack.

Albertson's is just a giant conglomerate of companies that had been aggregated by its debtholders. Albertson's itself was in bankruptcy. When Albertson's purchased / merged with Safeway, Safeway and its its subsidiaries were very little better off.

While there are parts of Albertsons that are a good fit with Kroger, most of it is just excess capacity.  I cannot see it passing antitrust unless it sells off about 75% of Albertson's capacity. That said cherry picking which stores from the assortment both companies hold is a great way to pick the lucrative locations and discard the marginal ones.

The bottom line is many stores in older markets will be sold / closed and newer neighborhoods will have continued upper level services.

Quote from: bwana39 on October 15, 2022, 02:13:51 PMThe bottom line is many stores in older markets will be sold / closed and newer neighborhoods will have continued upper level services.

In other words, more food deserts.

Quote from: bandit957 on October 15, 2022, 02:14:49 PM

Quote from: bwana39 on October 15, 2022, 02:13:51 PMThe bottom line is many stores in older markets will be sold / closed and newer neighborhoods will have continued upper level services.

In other words, more food deserts.

One thing I've noticed about the Safeway brand is that they have maintained stores in some very small places out here in the West, where they are the only show in town.  Examples are Hawthorne NV on US 95, Lakeview OR and Burns OR on US 395 and Enterprise OR on Oregon 82.  These are usually buildings that are mostly unmodified since their original construction, probably in the 1960s, very small by modern supermarket standards with perhaps only 7 or 8 aisles, but still they manage to carry a reasonably full selection of groceries.  If the Safeway didn't exist in these towns they would only have corner market/gas station mini-marts and dollar store type of places.

I'm curious what will happen in San Diego with Vons Ralph's and Albertsons.

SM-G996U

This is just going to kick the DFW grocery market into hyperdrive.

Plus, Jerry Jones is gonna have to make a tough choice because Albertson's is a current team sponsor and Kroger is unionized.

If Kroger and Albertsons were forced to divest they would have to divest either Vons or Ralphs in Los Angeles.

https://abc7.com/albertsons-kroger-merger-ralphs/12327949/

Quote from: bing101 on October 16, 2022, 04:28:02 PM
If Kroger and Albertsons were forced to divest they would have to divest either Vons or Ralphs in Los Angeles.

https://abc7.com/albertsons-kroger-merger-ralphs/12327949/

Liebowski's got his Ralph's card.

Quote from: Road Hog on October 16, 2022, 03:57:09 AM
This is just going to kick the DFW grocery market into hyperdrive.

With H-E-B's new push further into north TX/DFW, I have to wonder how they'll end up playing into the Kroger/Albertsons deal.  Albertsons says there will be some kind of spinoff company, but the Feds haven't had their say yet.

This would be bad in the Northwest. In Boise for example, Albertsons is by far the biggest grocery chain (they started here after all), and then Fred Meyer is a strong second. Then you have Winco, Walmart, and Costco which are all very popular, but have fewer locations than the others. Situation is similar in Portland and Seattle, except most of the Albertsons are Safeway, and throw in some QFC locations.

Combining the chains could be bad for competition, but if stores end up closing as a result of this (seems likely, as we saw a good amount of that in the Albertsons/Safeway merger), that's even worse IMO and could create some food deserts. For example, the Albertsons in Boise on Orchard and Overland is about a mile from a Fred Meyer, and is in a shopping center that already has fairly high vacancy (there's just more storefronts than there needs to be). I could see them closing that Albertsons, and that whole shopping center would be almost a ghost town, would be bad for the area. Maybe another chain like Winco could take over some of the stores, but Haggen tried that in the Safeway/Albertsons merger and that was a disaster.

https://www.foodsco.net/stores/search?searchText=94510 (https://www.foodsco.net/stores/search?searchText=94510)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_4_Less (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_4_Less)
Kroger in Northern California is known as Food 4 Less and Foods Co. However in Northern California Kroger does not do as much advertising here as Safeway, Save Mart, Grocery outlet and Raleys in the Sacramento and Bay Area. I remember when I was on I-80 in Solano County I seen a Ralph's Truck near the Fairfield Truck Scales. I had no idea at the time it was Kroger owning Foods Co. In NorCal and it's not that well advertised in Bay Area and Sacramento. At the time I could not identify a Ralph's Distribution center in Northern California since they do not have stores in the area.  I thought Ralph's was considering going to NorCal at one point with no official statement.

If this is true that there will be Monopolies in some areas wouldn't Albertsons and Kroger be required to divest in some parts of the USA to third parties like Stater Brothers, Save Mart and others.

Quote from: -- US 175 -- on October 17, 2022, 06:51:55 AM

Quote from: Road Hog on October 16, 2022, 03:57:09 AM
This is just going to kick the DFW grocery market into hyperdrive.

With H-E-B's new push further into north TX/DFW, I have to wonder how they'll end up playing into the Kroger/Albertsons deal.  Albertsons says there will be some kind of spinoff company, but the Feds haven't had their say yet.

I dunno about DFW. This market is so ultracompetitive with so many players (and another one coming in H-E-B), it's likely Albertsons will be allowed to stay. Assuming they keep the two brands separate.

Kroger already has a monopoly in several places unless you count Walmart Meijer and the upscale grocery stores.

Indianapolis
Lexington Ky
Louisville
Cincinnati

SM-G996U

Quote from: ibthebigd on October 18, 2022, 05:11:46 AM
Kroger already has a monopoly in several places unless you count Walmart Meijer and the upscale grocery stores.

Indianapolis
Lexington Ky
Louisville
Cincinnati

SM-G996U

Can't really speak to the other three cities, but there's competition in Lexington. Not counting Meijer or Walmart, Save-A-Lot is well-established.

And Publix is coming to Louisville.

Unless Kroger has a sale, I'd rather shop at Walmart anyway. Prices are generally cheaper. I've said this many times before, but I've always found Kroger's non-sale prices to be very expensive.

Kroger has a monopoly in Cincinnati.

In my day, we usually went to the nearby IGA or Thriftway, but that was when there used to be a thing called competition.

Another way of saying "unless you count _____, then Kroger has a monopoly"  is "Kroger doesn't have a monopoly" .

Hmm, not too happy with this one...

When I lived in North Little Rock briefly again last decade, Kroger still had a stranglehold on the local grocery market, just as I remembered as a kid. Not necessarily a "monopoly," but definite market dominance. Here in Texas, Kroger has identified Prosper as its next frontier and has three Marketplaces that are "designed" to compete with Wally World.  Um, nice try.

From the LA Times:

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-10-18/think-food-inflation-is-bad-now-wait-till-kroger-and-albertsons-merge

Quote from: bandit957 on October 18, 2022, 01:36:03 PM
Kroger has a monopoly in Cincinnati.

In my day, we usually went to the nearby IGA or Thriftway, but that was when there used to be a thing called competition.

We also occasionally went to Market Square or Fazio's. In the late 1970s, Market Square became part of a chain called Liberal.

We actually did go to Kroger occasionally, but even when our neighborhood got a Kroger, we still usually went to IGA or Thriftway.

When I was about 4 years old, someone soiled their pants at Kroger and we called it "the Kroger incident."

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on October 15, 2022, 12:50:14 PM
In Northwest Indiana, there are no Kroger stores. There are a couple Jewel/Osco, owned by Albertson's. The largest market share is Strack & Van Tyl, which is locally owned. Aldi, Meijer and Wal-mart are probably with Jewel/Osco in the next tier after Strack.

I'm from the complete opposite side of Indiana (Southeast) and I'm honestly surprised you guys don't have Kroger. Albertson's is unheard of here (this is actually my first time hearing about them ever). I've definitely been up there in Chicagoland many but it looks like I haven't really paid attention to what grocery stores operate there, rather focusing on other stuff like relaxing

Cincinnati area/northern KY - Kroger collaborates with Walgreens to have something called a "Kroger Express" which is essentially a mini Kroger inside of a Walgreens, with Kroger selling stuff like meat, vegetables, eggs, and dairy while Walgreens sells beauty products and pharmaceutical products. It's been a while since I've been in one but I think there is some overlap between the products each offer.

I think I also saw a CVS pharmacy inside of a Walgreens in or around Norwood? I'm still confused...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/shopping/2022/10/14/kroger-ceo-albertsons-merger/10498224002/

Here is more and talks that it should be in a congressional hearing is at play here.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2022/10/20/23413031/kroger-albertsons-merger-jewel-marianos-food-insecurity-senate-hearings-food-prices-editorial

I hope other parties get the divested Kroger/Albertsons stores where there are areas of concern surrounding monopoly in some parts of the USA.  Here is some of the competition for now and some of them may exist only on the regional level.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grocery_Outlet


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldi


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahold_Delhaize


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperValu_(United_States)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Ranch_Market


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chef%27Store


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_Pacific_Supermarket


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seafood_City


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shun_Fat_Supermarket


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vallarta_Supermarkets




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinCo_Foods




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_Mart_Supermarkets


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardenas_(supermarket)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpartanNash


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publix


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grocery_Outlet


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raley%27s_Supermarkets


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_%26_Final


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakefern_Food_Corporation


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IGA_(supermarkets)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Grocers


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stater_Bros.

Quote from: bandit957 on October 20, 2022, 12:31:25 AM
When I was about 4 years old, someone soiled their pants at Kroger and we called it "the Kroger incident."

I tried describing the nature of your posts to my wife yesterday at dinner, and I found it exceedingly difficult to summarize.

Quote from: bing101 on October 20, 2022, 11:31:50 AM
I hope other parties get the divested Kroger/Albertsons stores where there are areas of concern surrounding monopoly in some parts of the USA.  Here is some of the competition for now and some of them may exist only on the regional level.

(list)

Yeah, pretty much all of those except Aldi are regional. Publix probably stands to benefit the most if Kroger unloads stores since it'll give them an opportunity to expand out of the Southeastern U.S.

Quote from: bing101 on October 20, 2022, 11:31:50 AM
I hope other parties get the divested Kroger/Albertsons stores where there are areas of concern surrounding monopoly in some parts of the USA.  Here is some of the competition for now and some of them may exist only on the regional level.

Such competition is not as widespread as Kroger and Albertsons brands, so you'd be traveling farther for groceries that might be more expensive and come with fewer choices. That's an extra burden for those who don't have reliable access to a car, or even those who can drive but live in areas with tons of traffic.

Some of these are also not full replacements. For example, Grocery Outlet (one of my preferred stores) mostly sells overstock goods from other retailers at a somewhat discounted rate; the produce there isn't of the best quality and many dry goods are much closer to expiration. They certainly don't have a full deli or bakery like most conventional grocery stores either.

Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on October 20, 2022, 01:09:29 PM

Quote from: bing101 on October 20, 2022, 11:31:50 AM
I hope other parties get the divested Kroger/Albertsons stores where there are areas of concern surrounding monopoly in some parts of the USA.  Here is some of the competition for now and some of them may exist only on the regional level.

(list)

Yeah, pretty much all of those except Aldi are regional. Publix probably stands to benefit the most if Kroger unloads stores since it'll give them an opportunity to expand out of the Southeastern U.S.

Aldi is not even known in the Sacramento and San Francisco areas. Yes some of this is because in the Sacramento and San Francisco areas we have Raley's, SaveMart, Seafood City, WinCo, Island Pacific, Grocery Outlet, Ranch 99, Cardenas step in as the competition of Safeway one of the labels affected by the Albertsons/Kroger Merger for now.
https://stores.aldi.us/ca
All of the Aldi Stores on this list are from Fresno to Southern California.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 14, 2022, 11:29:57 PM
In the Philly area, Albertsons owns Acme.  Acme tends to be a higher priced store, so the merger is generally being looked at as a good thing, hoping Kroger will bring prices down a bit.

Yeah right. In NC, Kroger rebranded all their triangle stores to Harris Teeter (higher priced store) shortly after buying the chain. Don't forget that Albertson's recently acquired the small upmarket Kings chain in Northern NJ. The running joke with ACME is that when they took over all the old A&P locations, that they left the old high price tags on everything. Those stores are among the nicest ACMEs inside though as A&P was a higher end chain. The only good thing about them is that they are rarely crowded due to the high prices. The Wakefern giant known as Shop-Rite really kills them on price.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markfaithfull/2022/10/20/kroger-albertsons-to-form-spinco-as-senators-raise-merger-fears/?sh=2e92c7d38c16
Here is more on the Albertsons and Kroger talks.

https://www.wlwt.com/article/albertsons-kroger-merger-payout-to-shareholders/41865729

Here is more on the Albertsons/Kroger talks.

Washington's attorney general has sued to temporarily block the dividend payment to Albertsons investors with the goal of preventing the $4 billion from being siphoned from grocery operations while investigating whether the payment violates antitrust laws. The logic being that $4 billion would mean worse service at Albertsons/Safeway stores while the merger is being worked out.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/wa-judge-pauses-albertsons-4b-payout-to-shareholders-amid-kroger-merger/

https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/29/business/kroger-albertsons-merger-ftc-antitrust/index.html

How this deal needs to be scrutinized thoroughly.

This deal has had a couple of local effects.

First off, Kroger is eliminating the hometown delivery program at the end of the year. Currently, they have a system where you can order online and delivery trucks go to a central location in towns where there isn't a Kroger store for customer pickup. There's been a Kroger Hometown service available in Jackson, Ky., for several months.

Also, Kroger had announced plans to build a new store in Jackson and had already initiated the zoning change process necessary for the location they'd selected. Now, those plans are on hold, and the stated reason is due to the acquisition of Albertsons.

I still wonder if the deal will be allowed to go through though. If politicians from both parties don't like it, it won't be allowed through unless they are paid off, which given the state of our Congress could very well happen.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on December 09, 2022, 10:43:33 AM
I still wonder if the deal will be allowed to go through though. If politicians from both parties don't like it, it won't be allowed through unless they are paid off, which given the state of our Congress could very well happen.

Good theory.

Except, of course, Congress has no say in the matter.  Mergers are handled by the FTC,  which is an executive agency and litigated in the courts.

Quote from: SP Cook on December 09, 2022, 12:33:54 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on December 09, 2022, 10:43:33 AM
I still wonder if the deal will be allowed to go through though. If politicians from both parties don't like it, it won't be allowed through unless they are paid off, which given the state of our Congress could very well happen.

Good theory.

Except, of course, Congress has no say in the matter.  Mergers are handled by the FTC,  which is an executive agency and litigated in the courts.

Eh, not really. Congress can kind of insert itself anywhere that it likes, since the FTC's existence and funding derives from laws created by Congress.

They could also pass a law saying "It shall be unlawful for the FTC to approve a merger between any companies based in Cincinnati, Ohio and any companies based in Boise, Idaho" or some nonsense like that.

Quote from: elsmere241 on November 29, 2022, 03:49:53 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/29/business/kroger-albertsons-merger-ftc-antitrust/index.html

How this deal needs to be scrutinized thoroughly.

The Safeway-Albertsons-Haggen clusterfuck was a pretty bad deal for consumers here (basically Haggen's home region). We lost quite a few stores and it created food deserts all over that are slowly being filled back up thanks to some other chains (like Grocery Outlet) jumping in. A few of the ex-Haggen stores here are still sitting empty and rotting away; the "new" Haggens mostly use the same inventory as Safeway but with crappier service.

Teddy Roosevelt is rolling in his grave. There's far too many near-monopolies in various U.S. industries, but this one has the potential to hurt so many communities all at once.

I just wish we could get more IGA stores again.

Quote from: bandit957 on December 09, 2022, 08:00:00 PM
I just wish we could get more IGA stores again.

Heh.  The IGA in my mother's hometown in KY was absolutely disgusting. :D

When industry leaders merge, the burden should be on THEM to prove that they will NOT produce anticompetitive conditions, not on the FTC to prove that it would.

Grocery Outlet is better than nothing at all I guess, but it's nowhere near as good as a supermarket that's really trying, carries fresh fruits and vegetables, etc.

Quote from: kkt on December 10, 2022, 10:48:51 AM
When industry leaders merge, the burden should be on THEM to prove that they will NOT produce anticompetitive conditions, not on the FTC to prove that it would.

Grocery Outlet is better than nothing at all I guess, but it's nowhere near as good as a supermarket that's really trying, carries fresh fruits and vegetables, etc.

Businesses can rely on all sorts of accounting, demographic, and other statistical methods to "prove" they aren't producing anticompetitive conditions. That's basically handing them the keys to the henhouse. It falls on the government because it's a matter of who do you trust more to do the analysis honestly.

Quote from: skluth on December 10, 2022, 11:26:30 AM

Quote from: kkt on December 10, 2022, 10:48:51 AM
When industry leaders merge, the burden should be on THEM to prove that they will NOT produce anticompetitive conditions, not on the FTC to prove that it would.

Grocery Outlet is better than nothing at all I guess, but it's nowhere near as good as a supermarket that's really trying, carries fresh fruits and vegetables, etc.

Businesses can rely on all sorts of accounting, demographic, and other statistical methods to "prove" they aren't producing anticompetitive conditions. That's basically handing them the keys to the henhouse. It falls on the government because it's a matter of who do you trust more to do the analysis honestly.

Yeah.  Producing anticompetitive conditions is the basic reason these mergers happen.

Quote from: Rothman on December 09, 2022, 08:15:45 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on December 09, 2022, 08:00:00 PM
I just wish we could get more IGA stores again.

Heh.  The IGA in my mother's hometown in KY was absolutely disgusting. :D

IGA is more or less a supplier, not a chain. Each IGA is independently owned. Lots of small towns have them. They're going to be more prevalent in rural or remote areas that don't have Kroger stores or Walmart Supercenters.

There's a rather nice IGA in Jackson, but it's very expensive. If the local Walmart ever becomes a supercenter, or if the Kroger store actually gets built after the project was pulled due to the merger, Jackson IGA will be in a world of hurt.

There used to be a nice IGA in Fort Thomas that we went to all the time.

Quote from: hbelkins on December 10, 2022, 09:20:29 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 09, 2022, 08:15:45 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on December 09, 2022, 08:00:00 PM
I just wish we could get more IGA stores again.

Heh.  The IGA in my mother's hometown in KY was absolutely disgusting. :D

IGA is more or less a supplier, not a chain. Each IGA is independently owned. Lots of small towns have them. They're going to be more prevalent in rural or remote areas that don't have Kroger stores or Walmart Supercenters.

There's a rather nice IGA in Jackson, but it's very expensive. If the local Walmart ever becomes a supercenter, or if the Kroger store actually gets built after the project was pulled due to the merger, Jackson IGA will be in a world of hurt.

When it was an acronym, it stood for Independent Grocers Alliance.

So if albertsons gets bought will pavilions vons safeway and the other companies they own go with them

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 09, 2022, 06:27:32 PMThey could also pass a law saying "It shall be unlawful for the FTC to approve a merger between any companies based in Cincinnati, Ohio and any companies based in Boise, Idaho" or some nonsense like that.

I am not sure that would comport with the part of the Contract Clause that bans bills of attainder, though language that is local or private is allowed as long as it confers a benefit (Acts of Congress have occasionally been used to confer US citizenship on named individuals).

Quote from: J N Winkler on December 11, 2022, 12:32:12 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 09, 2022, 06:27:32 PMThey could also pass a law saying "It shall be unlawful for the FTC to approve a merger between any companies based in Cincinnati, Ohio and any companies based in Boise, Idaho" or some nonsense like that.

I am not sure that would comport with the part of the Contract Clause that bans bills of attainder, though language that is local or private is allowed as long as it confers a benefit (Acts of Congress have occasionally been used to confer US citizenship on named individuals).

Legislatures in the United States have long sidestepped this by carving out incredibly specific criteria that in practice applies to only one subject (e.g. "all cities in X county, with a population between Y and Z" which happens to resolve to a single target city). I am not sure if there is case law on the subject, however, nor whether this sort of thing is viable at the federal level like it seems to be at the state level. 

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 11, 2022, 12:50:48 AMLegislatures in the United States have long sidestepped this by carving out incredibly specific criteria that in practice applies to only one subject (e.g. "all cities in X county, with a population between Y and Z" which happens to resolve to a single target city). I am not sure if there is case law on the subject, however, nor whether this sort of thing is viable at the federal level like it seems to be at the state level.

My concern would be that specifying the parties to be disqualified as categories would not suffice to preclude the argument that the measure was in fact a bill of attainder in disguise.

Edit:  I found (through a Google Images search, of all things) a Congressional Research Service report (https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R40826.html) suggesting that this worry is well-founded.  It describes a case (dating from Obama's first term) in which the Second Circuit ruled that a proscription whose target was cast in general terms as organizations active in registering voters was in fact narrowly aimed at ACORN and thus was unconstitutional as a bill of attainder.

Quote from: Lukeisroads on December 11, 2022, 12:07:37 AM
So if albertsons gets bought will pavilions vons safeway and the other companies they own go with them

Maybe.  Kroger is aiming for market share (as compared to total U.S. grocery sales volumes) so as to compete with Walmart in the prices that they pay to largest suppliers (greater volume usually equals lower prices).  But they know that a big part of the merger game is competition.  In the past, it has been common that Kroger will spin off entire subsidiaries in order to deal with complaints (local and regional) about anti-competitive forces of the merger.  When Kroger has spun off a handful of local stores of a particular subsidiary chain, they sometimes get them back in another unrelated store swap later on (but operating under a different name).  Who knows how many stores and chains will get spun off.  Additionally,  Kroger is particularly focused on picking up regional market share in Florida.

Other chains owned by Albertsons are:  Jewel-Osco, Acme, Randalls, Carrs-Safeway, United, Haggen,  Kings, Plated, Shaw's, Tom Thumb and Star Market.  Shaw's and Star Market are in the Northeast and are operated as a single subsidiary.

Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 11, 2022, 03:11:17 PM

Quote from: Lukeisroads on December 11, 2022, 12:07:37 AM
So if albertsons gets bought will pavilions vons safeway and the other companies they own go with them

Maybe.  Kroger is aiming for market share (as compared to total U.S. grocery sales volumes) so as to compete with Walmart in the prices that they pay to largest suppliers (greater volume usually equals lower prices).  But they know that a big part of the merger game is competition.  In the past, it has been common that Kroger will spin off entire subsidiaries in order to deal with complaints (local and regional) about anti-competitive forces of the merger.  When Kroger has spun off a handful of local stores of a particular subsidiary chain, they sometimes get them back in another unrelated store swap later on (but operating under a different name).  Who knows how many stores and chains will get spun off.  Additionally,  Kroger is particularly focused on picking up regional market share in Florida.

Other chains owned by Albertsons are:  Jewel-Osco, Acme, Randalls, Carrs-Safeway, United, Haggen,  Kings, Plated, Shaw's, Tom Thumb and Star Market.  Shaw's and Star Market are in the Northeast and are operated as a single subsidiary.

I wonder what Kroger's strategy is in Florida, given that their non-Walmart competition is mostly Publix and Winn-Dixie.

Quote from: Lukeisroads on December 11, 2022, 12:07:37 AM
So if albertsons gets bought will pavilions vons safeway and the other companies they own go with them

Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 11, 2022, 03:11:17 PM
Maybe.  Kroger is aiming for market share (as compared to total U.S. grocery sales volumes) so as to compete with Walmart in the prices that they pay to largest suppliers (greater volume usually equals lower prices).  But they know that a big part of the merger game is competition.  In the past, it has been common that Kroger will spin off entire subsidiaries in order to deal with complaints (local and regional) about anti-competitive forces of the merger.  When Kroger has spun off a handful of local stores of a particular subsidiary chain, they sometimes get them back in another unrelated store swap later on (but operating under a different name).  Who knows how many stores and chains will get spun off.  Additionally,  Kroger is particularly focused on picking up regional market share in Florida.

Other chains owned by Albertsons are:  Jewel-Osco, Acme, Randalls, Carrs-Safeway, United, Haggen,  Kings, Plated, Shaw's, Tom Thumb and Star Market.  Shaw's and Star Market are in the Northeast and are operated as a single subsidiary.

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on December 12, 2022, 05:38:51 AM
I wonder what Kroger's strategy is in Florida, given that their non-Walmart competition is mostly Publix and Winn-Dixie.

Same question here.  Albertson's has less than 50 stores in Florida, certainly not enough to make a dent in the regional marketshare.  One article that I read indicated that Kroger wants to start a nationwide delivery service similar to Amazon and Walmart.  Kroger doesn't sell a huge volume of [non-grocery] items, but it is my perception that the average Kroger-branded store has three times as much [non-grocery] products on its shelves that any other chain.  In this case, Kroger feels the need to develop a strong warehouse/supply chain presence in many new markets in order to just launch such a service nationwide.  They may be missing the point here, as Amazon seems to be happy to provide [supply chain services] to a not insignificant portion of Walmart customers (and Walmart may be doing the same thing for other chains).

Going down a different rabbit hole, Kroger has a pretty decent delivery network already in place.  After the left the Raleigh/Durham market, I've tried to procure some dry goods from Kroger.com that we can't find elsewhere (not part of Harris-Teeter's regional supply chain).  They can deliver them to my sister in West Virginia, but not to us here in North Carolina (they will deliver some things to us in North Carolina, but these particular products don't show up on the website using our address).  We often have her purchase those items wherever she can find them cheapest, and we get them whenever we see her.

At the end of the day the merged Kroger will be very close to a nationwide chain, leaving out Florida for the most part.  Other than simply stores there, which would not be wise and would take more than a decade to reach the economy of scale it needs, there is no merger the government would approve that gets them there. 

Kroger just launched a warehouse and delivery network in Central Oklahoma despite the fact that they have no stores here. I'm not sure how many people would actually use grocery delivery from a store they've never been in.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2022, 06:54:56 AM
Kroger just launched a warehouse and delivery network in Central Oklahoma despite the fact that they have no stores here. I'm not sure how many people would actually use grocery delivery from a store they've never been in.

Excellent question (one that is on my mind, as well).  Kroger has a huge following for its own label brands, particularly Big K sodas (where you can get a huge array of flavors in both regular and diet).  Back in their heyday, you could get Kroger peanut butter in 5-pound buckets and everyone kept the old used buckets for years-and-years (and thusly, Kroger peanut butter is still a big draw).  Once or twice a year, you can get whole wheat bagels from Thomas, but Kroger has their store brand all year long.  But many of us are not huge fans of Kroger itself; too big, impersonal and understaffed.   I've forgotten some of the other goodies.  Although I like having Kroger online as an option, but many of the products are not simply worth bothering with the effort (and security risk) of online shopping.

Unless Kroger can find a way to move enough of its store-label products quickly enough to warrant restocking, it is hard to imagine how they can sell this stuff in states where they don't have a presence (or even a strong presence).  Perhaps (as I eluded before), Kroger is getting more into the distribution and warehouse side and selling their services to smaller chains (and competitors).  ...And blocking customers from being capable of ordering stuff that is not profitable in certain regions (even if we were willing to pay to have the dry goods shipped from somewhere else).

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2022, 06:54:56 AM
Kroger just launched a warehouse and delivery network in Central Oklahoma despite the fact that they have no stores here. I'm not sure how many people would actually use grocery delivery from a store they've never been in.

Are there any Kroger-owned chains in that part of Oklahoma?

Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 13, 2022, 09:05:04 AMBut many of us are not huge fans of Kroger itself; too big, impersonal and understaffed.

As I've stated many times before, my complaint about Kroger is that when items aren't on sale, they're extremely expensive. I've noticed this more over the last 25 or so years, much more so than when I was in college and Kroger was a great place to shop for college kids with limited funds.

Kroger's sales are great, but if they don't have a sale going on, I'd much rather shop at a Walmart Supercenter.

For several years now, since even before the pandemic, our Kroger has always been out of everything. The store is full of bare shelves. And that's for items they even still carry.

Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 13, 2022, 09:05:04 AM
But many of us are not huge fans of Kroger itself; too big, impersonal and understaffed.

Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2022, 01:31:29 PM
As I've stated many times before, my complaint about Kroger is that when items aren't on sale, they're extremely expensive. I've noticed this more over the last 25 or so years, much more so than when I was in college and Kroger was a great place to shop for college kids with limited funds.

Kroger's sales are great, but if they don't have a sale going on, I'd much rather shop at a Walmart Supercenter.

...And my complaint about Walmart is that when items aren't on sale, they're extremely expensive.  That wasn't true before 2019.  So you can imagine what I think about Kroger's prices.  Harris Teeter's prices are worse (except they usually have a bunch of stuff that I'm cherry-picking on sale).   :awesomeface:

I refuse to shop at Walmart and will continue to do so until they get a union.

During the holidays, Fry's (Kroger) usually has equal or best prices on the Welch's Sparkling juices, while outside the holiday season, Walmart usually wins.

Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2022, 02:34:25 PM
I refuse to shop at Walmart and will continue to do so until they get a union.

That's on the employees, not the company. If you want Walmart to unionize, convince the employees to start the process.

Unionization is one reason Kroger's prices are so high. They require their part-time high school workers join the union. (Source: a number of people in Powell County, Ky., when Kroger bought out a local store and converted it to a Kroger as an experiment in re-entering smaller markets that the chain had abandoned in prior years, such as in neighboring Estill County, Ky., which had a Kroger when I was growing up.)

Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2022, 06:52:04 PMUnionization is one reason Kroger's prices are so high. They require their part-time high school workers join the union.

What's worse is that it's the UFCW, which is run by a bunch of crooks.

Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on December 13, 2022, 10:07:42 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2022, 06:54:56 AM
Kroger just launched a warehouse and delivery network in Central Oklahoma despite the fact that they have no stores here. I'm not sure how many people would actually use grocery delivery from a store they've never been in.

Are there any Kroger-owned chains in that part of Oklahoma?

Nope, not for decades.

There were plans for a Tom Thumb on the south end of my town, but there's a Kroger a mile south of it, so something else will go there. Maybe an H-E-B?

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 13, 2022, 06:54:56 AM
Kroger just launched a warehouse and delivery network in Central Oklahoma despite the fact that they have no stores here. I'm not sure how many people would actually use grocery delivery from a store they've never been in.

Similarly, Kroger has begun delivery service in Austin and San Antonio-- 2 cities that Kroger hasn't had stores in in quite a few years.  Other than Walmart and Whole Foods, the predominant grocer in both cities is H-E-B.  I'm not sure how well Kroger thinks they'll do there after being absent for so long.  H-E-B has their own delivery through Favor, and Walmart has their own delivery service.

Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2022, 06:52:04 PM

Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2022, 02:34:25 PM
I refuse to shop at Walmart and will continue to do so until they get a union.

That's on the employees, not the company. If you want Walmart to unionize, convince the employees to start the process.

Unionization is one reason Kroger's prices are so high. They require their part-time high school workers join the union. (Source: a number of people in Powell County, Ky., when Kroger bought out a local store and converted it to a Kroger as an experiment in re-entering smaller markets that the chain had abandoned in prior years, such as in neighboring Estill County, Ky., which had a Kroger when I was growing up.)

Pfft.  Doesn't seem to hurt Kroger, either.  Other chains are unionized, though, like Stop & Shop.

Still, I am wary of the effectiveness of supermarket unions.  They do seem to be captured by management, in my limited experience.

Quote from: Rothman on December 14, 2022, 07:46:33 AM
Still, I am wary of the effectiveness of supermarket unions.  They do seem to be captured by management, in my limited experience.

The one I was in was quite good, although part of that might have been that the location I worked was a low-volume store so the management wasn't trying to do stuff they weren't supposed to since it didn't matter as much.

Quote from: 1 on December 14, 2022, 07:53:55 AM

Quote from: Rothman on December 14, 2022, 07:46:33 AM
Still, I am wary of the effectiveness of supermarket unions.  They do seem to be captured by management, in my limited experience.

The one I was in was quite good, although part of that might have been that the location I worked was a low-volume store so the management wasn't trying to do stuff they weren't supposed to since it didn't matter as much.

Glad to hear it.

Although I certainly haven't agreed with all of my union's actions, I'd rather have one than not.  In my case, it really does make negotiations more even-keeled than if it was everyone for themselves.

Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2022, 06:52:04 PM

Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2022, 02:34:25 PM
I refuse to shop at Walmart and will continue to do so until they get a union.

That's on the employees, not the company. If you want Walmart to unionize, convince the employees to start the process.

Unionization is one reason Kroger's prices are so high. They require their part-time high school workers join the union. (Source: a number of people in Powell County, Ky., when Kroger bought out a local store and converted it to a Kroger as an experiment in re-entering smaller markets that the chain had abandoned in prior years, such as in neighboring Estill County, Ky., which had a Kroger when I was growing up.)

I think that's more of a union demand (high schoolers in the union).  I worked at a union grocer back in my high school and had to join the UFCW.  I remember having 2-3 paychecks where about 80% of my take home was taken out to pay for "initiation fees" on top of the usual union dues.

Quote from: thenetwork on December 14, 2022, 10:01:26 AM

Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2022, 06:52:04 PM

Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2022, 02:34:25 PM
I refuse to shop at Walmart and will continue to do so until they get a union.

That's on the employees, not the company. If you want Walmart to unionize, convince the employees to start the process.

Unionization is one reason Kroger's prices are so high. They require their part-time high school workers join the union. (Source: a number of people in Powell County, Ky., when Kroger bought out a local store and converted it to a Kroger as an experiment in re-entering smaller markets that the chain had abandoned in prior years, such as in neighboring Estill County, Ky., which had a Kroger when I was growing up.)

I think that's more of a union demand (high schoolers in the union).  I worked at a union grocer back in my high school and had to join the UFCW.  I remember having 2-3 paychecks where about 80% of my take home was taken out to pay for "initiation fees" on top of the usual union dues.

Yikes. I'd be pissed if a couple weeks of my pay were taken for union dues like that. I had to join the union when I worked in grocery, but my dues were only $10 every other paycheck. So $20 a month, and that was all. Moderately annoying, but certainly tolerable.

Quote from: thenetwork on December 14, 2022, 10:01:26 AM
I remember having 2-3 paychecks where about 80% of my take home was taken out to pay for "initiation fees" on top of the usual union dues.

I don't remember this happening to me at all. Union dues were $10/month, and I don't remember any initiation fees.

Quote from: Rothman on December 14, 2022, 07:57:20 AM

Quote from: 1 on December 14, 2022, 07:53:55 AM

Quote from: Rothman on December 14, 2022, 07:46:33 AM
Still, I am wary of the effectiveness of supermarket unions.  They do seem to be captured by management, in my limited experience.

The one I was in was quite good, although part of that might have been that the location I worked was a low-volume store so the management wasn't trying to do stuff they weren't supposed to since it didn't matter as much.

Glad to hear it.

Although I certainly haven't agreed with all of my union's actions, I'd rather have one than not.  In my case, it really does make negotiations more even-keeled than if it was everyone for themselves.

In what world do government employees, other than high-ranking administrators or appointees, get to individually negotiate their salaries and benefits?

Salary schedules and benefits are set through a combination of executive and legislative acts. There's a salary schedule linked to pay grades, and the grades can be adjusted administratively. (I was bumped from a 13 to a 14 a few years ago). Annual raises are decided by the legislature.

We've had very few individuals in state government who were able to negotiate their own salaries, and all of them were high-level administrators, such as the chief information officer. Others who get to negotiate are those who are state funded but not actually part of state government, such as college presidents and public school superintendents.

Quote from: hbelkins on December 14, 2022, 10:58:35 AM

Quote from: Rothman on December 14, 2022, 07:57:20 AM

Quote from: 1 on December 14, 2022, 07:53:55 AM

Quote from: Rothman on December 14, 2022, 07:46:33 AM
Still, I am wary of the effectiveness of supermarket unions.  They do seem to be captured by management, in my limited experience.

The one I was in was quite good, although part of that might have been that the location I worked was a low-volume store so the management wasn't trying to do stuff they weren't supposed to since it didn't matter as much.

Glad to hear it.

Although I certainly haven't agreed with all of my union's actions, I'd rather have one than not.  In my case, it really does make negotiations more even-keeled than if it was everyone for themselves.

In what world do government employees, other than high-ranking administrators or appointees, get to individually negotiate their salaries and benefits?

Salary schedules and benefits are set through a combination of executive and legislative acts. There's a salary schedule linked to pay grades, and the grades can be adjusted administratively. (I was bumped from a 13 to a 14 a few years ago). Annual raises are decided by the legislature.

We've had very few individuals in state government who were able to negotiate their own salaries, and all of them were high-level administrators, such as the chief information officer. Others who get to negotiate are those who are state funded but not actually part of state government, such as college presidents and public school superintendents.

Exactly.  No union, no negotiation.  Management controls all.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on December 14, 2022, 10:06:11 AM

Quote from: thenetwork on December 14, 2022, 10:01:26 AM

Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2022, 06:52:04 PM

Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2022, 02:34:25 PM
I refuse to shop at Walmart and will continue to do so until they get a union.

That's on the employees, not the company. If you want Walmart to unionize, convince the employees to start the process.

Unionization is one reason Kroger's prices are so high. They require their part-time high school workers join the union. (Source: a number of people in Powell County, Ky., when Kroger bought out a local store and converted it to a Kroger as an experiment in re-entering smaller markets that the chain had abandoned in prior years, such as in neighboring Estill County, Ky., which had a Kroger when I was growing up.)

I think that's more of a union demand (high schoolers in the union).  I worked at a union grocer back in my high school and had to join the UFCW.  I remember having 2-3 paychecks where about 80% of my take home was taken out to pay for "initiation fees" on top of the usual union dues.

Yikes. I'd be pissed if a couple weeks of my pay were taken for union dues like that. I had to join the union when I worked in grocery, but my dues were only $10 every other paycheck. So $20 a month, and that was all. Moderately annoying, but certainly tolerable.

The last job I had, I would have happily paid $20/month to have someone on call anytime my boss needed to be told to go fuck herself.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 14, 2022, 03:27:46 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on December 14, 2022, 10:06:11 AM

Quote from: thenetwork on December 14, 2022, 10:01:26 AM

Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2022, 06:52:04 PM

Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2022, 02:34:25 PM
I refuse to shop at Walmart and will continue to do so until they get a union.

That's on the employees, not the company. If you want Walmart to unionize, convince the employees to start the process.

Unionization is one reason Kroger's prices are so high. They require their part-time high school workers join the union. (Source: a number of people in Powell County, Ky., when Kroger bought out a local store and converted it to a Kroger as an experiment in re-entering smaller markets that the chain had abandoned in prior years, such as in neighboring Estill County, Ky., which had a Kroger when I was growing up.)

I think that's more of a union demand (high schoolers in the union).  I worked at a union grocer back in my high school and had to join the UFCW.  I remember having 2-3 paychecks where about 80% of my take home was taken out to pay for "initiation fees" on top of the usual union dues.

Yikes. I'd be pissed if a couple weeks of my pay were taken for union dues like that. I had to join the union when I worked in grocery, but my dues were only $10 every other paycheck. So $20 a month, and that was all. Moderately annoying, but certainly tolerable.

The last job I had, I would have happily paid $20/month to have someone on call anytime my boss needed to be told to go fuck herself.

I must've had nice bosses then, because I don't think I ever needed to tell that to any of them.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on December 14, 2022, 04:10:51 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 14, 2022, 03:27:46 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on December 14, 2022, 10:06:11 AM

Quote from: thenetwork on December 14, 2022, 10:01:26 AM

Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2022, 06:52:04 PM

Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2022, 02:34:25 PM
I refuse to shop at Walmart and will continue to do so until they get a union.

That's on the employees, not the company. If you want Walmart to unionize, convince the employees to start the process.

Unionization is one reason Kroger's prices are so high. They require their part-time high school workers join the union. (Source: a number of people in Powell County, Ky., when Kroger bought out a local store and converted it to a Kroger as an experiment in re-entering smaller markets that the chain had abandoned in prior years, such as in neighboring Estill County, Ky., which had a Kroger when I was growing up.)

I think that's more of a union demand (high schoolers in the union).  I worked at a union grocer back in my high school and had to join the UFCW.  I remember having 2-3 paychecks where about 80% of my take home was taken out to pay for "initiation fees" on top of the usual union dues.

Yikes. I'd be pissed if a couple weeks of my pay were taken for union dues like that. I had to join the union when I worked in grocery, but my dues were only $10 every other paycheck. So $20 a month, and that was all. Moderately annoying, but certainly tolerable.

The last job I had, I would have happily paid $20/month to have someone on call anytime my boss needed to be told to go fuck herself.

I must've had nice bosses then, because I don't think I ever needed to tell that to any of them.

Knowing there's a union ready to step in probably caused them to clean up their act.

My boss was known for doing things like throwing away employees' personal belongings and trying to force new moms to pump in the bathroom (requiring a mother to pump in the bathroom is against federal law).

I worked at my employer for 32 years and my position unionized about year 25 of my career.  Generally it was a respectful workplace, with managers and supervisors who did not to asshole moves like the above either before or after the union was form.  But it was public sector, so pay was determined partly by the agency's management and ultimately by the state legislature.  The immediate cause of unionization was the state granting no cost of living increase at all for 7 or 8 years in a row, in the mid 1990s when private sector pay in our immediate area was increase by 5 to 7% per year.  So the union got us a pay increase, which more than paid for our union dues, and nothing else changed really.  If there was a grievance the union would send a representative - but the union was not interested into defending an employee who'd done something indefensible, and our management was pretty good about not bringing employees up for disciplinary action without a very good reason.  We got along very well for the most part.

I never felt the need to tell my boss to fuck off.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on December 14, 2022, 10:06:11 AM

Quote from: thenetwork on December 14, 2022, 10:01:26 AM

Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2022, 06:52:04 PM

Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2022, 02:34:25 PM
I refuse to shop at Walmart and will continue to do so until they get a union.

That's on the employees, not the company. If you want Walmart to unionize, convince the employees to start the process.

Unionization is one reason Kroger's prices are so high. They require their part-time high school workers join the union. (Source: a number of people in Powell County, Ky., when Kroger bought out a local store and converted it to a Kroger as an experiment in re-entering smaller markets that the chain had abandoned in prior years, such as in neighboring Estill County, Ky., which had a Kroger when I was growing up.)

I think that's more of a union demand (high schoolers in the union).  I worked at a union grocer back in my high school and had to join the UFCW.  I remember having 2-3 paychecks where about 80% of my take home was taken out to pay for "initiation fees" on top of the usual union dues.

Yikes. I'd be pissed if a couple weeks of my pay were taken for union dues like that. I had to join the union when I worked in grocery, but my dues were only $10 every other paycheck. So $20 a month, and that was all. Moderately annoying, but certainly tolerable.

This was back in the early 80s i was part time while in high school.  Within the last 5 years, I was briefly in a union job in a different state and business and there were no initiation fees.

I left that job when I was not making certain quotas that were difficult to reach due to a number of out-of-my-control factors. 

One thing that really pissed me off with said company and union rules ‐- I was hired along with one other person on the the same day.  He technically had "seniority" over me in choosing work schedules because his social security number was lower than mine.  So pretty much I was forced to work the shifts nobody else wanted.  There was no allowing to being able to alternate seniority with him in choosing work schedules between periods.  Total Bulls#it!!!

Quote from: thenetwork on December 14, 2022, 08:41:43 PM
One thing that really pissed me off with said company and union rules ‐- I was hired along with one other person on the the same day.  He technically had "seniority" over me in choosing work schedules because his social security number was lower than mine.  So pretty much I was forced to work the shifts nobody else wanted.  There was no allowing to being able to alternate seniority with him in choosing work schedules between periods.  Total Bulls#it!!!

I mean, I'm no fan of stupid workplace rules, but that just sounds like they decided in advance that they needed to have an arbitrary way to break ties and that was the way they decided to do it. Sucks you lost the tie, but it's not like they intentionally decided they liked the other guy more, so they hired you a day later than the other guy, or gave you a write-up on some subjective trumped-up charge so you'd have a lower seniority score (I had that one happen to me).

It is a little weird that the practical effect of that policy would be to favor people born in the Northeast before 2011, though.

My experience the few times I've shopped at Walmart is that there is one lane open, and it's staffed by a woman on the 10th hour of her first day.  Completely incompetent and close to tears.  Meanwhile the line at the self-checkout doesn't move because no one knows how to use those either.  I don't mind paying a few more cents at Kroger to avoid that hellscape.  Our local Walmart does have a Charlie's Subs, so I will visit the lobby area just for that as part of a walk.  There are never any parking spaces close to the store entrance.

Around here the one line is staffed by a woman who would deny God himself an exception to the coupon policy, because she's seen far more terrifying things than Him in the centuries she's been behind the register.

Kroger locations in this are are going to self-checkouts more and more.

I don't like self checkouts. I used them around 2020-21 because of issues back then, but that's it. I want to prevent store clerks from losing their jobs.

Quote from: bandit957 on December 27, 2022, 01:00:43 AM
I don't like self checkouts. I used them around 2020-21 because of issues back then, but that's it. I want to prevent store clerks from losing their jobs.

There are times of day here where Walmart doesn't have any registers open other than self-checkout.

I almost always use self checkouts. My problem is they always seem to be filled with old ladies with full carts who take forever to scan and bag each of their 74 items and then pay for all of it in nickels and pennies.

All the grocery chains here prioritize their self-checkouts. It's problematic for services like Instacart that bar their time-crunched shoppers from being able to use them, so there's the search for someone who can open a checkstand.

Quote from: US 89 on December 27, 2022, 01:36:44 AM
I almost always use self checkouts. My problem is they always seem to be filled with old ladies with full carts who take forever to scan and bag each of their 74 items and then pay for all of it in nickels and pennies.

I actually used to like to spend my spare change at self-checkouts because the ones at Walmart had a little cup that functioned like a toll basket. It was nice to just dump in a ton of change and not have to worry about counting or sorting it or anything. I guess too many people did that, though, because at some point they put a little cover over it that made it into a slot.

Self-checkouts are great for a handful of items, which is almost always what I have. But when you have a cart-full, it's an annoyance. Especially when they don't bother to put in any lanes with a moving belt.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on December 27, 2022, 10:40:19 AM
Self-checkouts ... Especially when they don't bother to put in any lanes with a moving belt.

Our Meijer just took out the self-serve lanes with moving belts, and replaced them with a cattle corral of a bunch of stations. Only place to fill 2 bags at a time, and then no where to put them when they're full. I guess they don't expect anyone to buy more than 2 or 3 bags of stuff.

I'm tired of the grocery bags at Kroger ripping all the time.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 14, 2022, 03:27:46 PM

Quote from: JoePCool14 on December 14, 2022, 10:06:11 AM

Quote from: thenetwork on December 14, 2022, 10:01:26 AM

Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2022, 06:52:04 PM

Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2022, 02:34:25 PM
I refuse to shop at Walmart and will continue to do so until they get a union.

That's on the employees, not the company. If you want Walmart to unionize, convince the employees to start the process.

Unionization is one reason Kroger's prices are so high. They require their part-time high school workers join the union. (Source: a number of people in Powell County, Ky., when Kroger bought out a local store and converted it to a Kroger as an experiment in re-entering smaller markets that the chain had abandoned in prior years, such as in neighboring Estill County, Ky., which had a Kroger when I was growing up.)

I think that's more of a union demand (high schoolers in the union).  I worked at a union grocer back in my high school and had to join the UFCW.  I remember having 2-3 paychecks where about 80% of my take home was taken out to pay for "initiation fees" on top of the usual union dues.

Yikes. I'd be pissed if a couple weeks of my pay were taken for union dues like that. I had to join the union when I worked in grocery, but my dues were only $10 every other paycheck. So $20 a month, and that was all. Moderately annoying, but certainly tolerable.

The last job I had, I would have happily paid $20/month to have someone on call anytime my boss needed to be told to go fuck herself.

I've never had a job where I wouldn't have happily paid $20/month to have someone on call anytime my boss needed to be told to go fuck themselves.

"Oh, you don't need a union; you can bring your problems straight to management any time!" is a whopper on par with "the check is in the mail" and "I'll still respect you in the morning," especially when combined with at-will employment.  Every time I've experienced some kind of change in benefits and compensation, my choices have been "accept it" and "find work elsewhere."

Quote from: hbelkins on December 27, 2022, 12:55:42 AM
Kroger locations in this are are going to self-checkouts more and more.

Every grocery store here seems to be emphasizing self-checkouts.

Quote from: kkt on December 27, 2022, 08:28:34 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on December 27, 2022, 12:55:42 AM
Kroger locations in this are are going to self-checkouts more and more.

Every grocery store here seems to be emphasizing self-checkouts.

Do you not have "hometown" grocery stores that emphasize the opposite?  I can think of one popular grocery store in this area that takes pride in customer service, and they even appear to have a policy of pushing every cart out to the parking lot for every single customer who has a cart.

Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2022, 09:32:34 AM

Quote from: kkt on December 27, 2022, 08:28:34 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on December 27, 2022, 12:55:42 AM
Kroger locations in this are are going to self-checkouts more and more.

Every grocery store here seems to be emphasizing self-checkouts.

Do you not have "hometown" grocery stores that emphasize the opposite?  I can think of one popular grocery store in this area that takes pride in customer service, and they even appear to have a policy of pushing every cart out to the parking lot for every single customer who has a cart.

We do. They offer an easy pickup "drive-thru" option after you checkout, you just leave your cart and someone loads your car. Even they finally put in some self-checkouts, but as far as I can tell, they still staff a lot of registers, so it's an alternative.

Quote from: bandit957 on December 27, 2022, 11:00:28 AM
I'm tired of the grocery bags at Kroger ripping all the time.

Speaking of grocery bags, effective Sunday (1/1/23) in Colorado, ALL shopping bags must be charged a state fee of ten cents apiece.  So no more free bags, paper or plastic.

...Gives a whole new meaning to "Dime Bags".

Quote from: thenetwork on December 28, 2022, 10:49:05 AM

Quote from: bandit957 on December 27, 2022, 11:00:28 AM
I'm tired of the grocery bags at Kroger ripping all the time.

Speaking of grocery bags, effective Sunday (1/1/23) in Colorado, ALL shopping bags must be charged a state fee of ten cents apiece.  So no more free bags, paper or plastic.

...Gives a whole new meaning to "Dime Bags".

When Coahuila (Mexico) banned plastic bags a couple of years ago, they also banned paper bags at the same time.  That's right:  stores provide no bags anymore.  So, basically overnight, shoppers went from getting everything bagged up for them at the store to having to bring their own bags/boxes to the store.

NY stores are weird.  We use our own bags, but I believe stores have been charging for their own for  a while now.  Paper only due to the ban on plastic bags, I think.

Quote from: Rothman on December 28, 2022, 11:27:29 AM
NY stores are weird.  We use our own bags, but I believe stores have been charging for their own for  a while now.  Paper only due to the ban on plastic bags, I think.

Stores are not charging for paper bags, they are still free*

* free before tax. County tax of 5 cents a bag applies.

Quote from: kalvado on December 28, 2022, 11:46:47 AM

Quote from: Rothman on December 28, 2022, 11:27:29 AM
NY stores are weird.  We use our own bags, but I believe stores have been charging for their own for  a while now.  Paper only due to the ban on plastic bags, I think.

Stores are not charging for paper bags, they are still free*

* free before tax. County tax of 5 cents a bag applies.

Ah, so that's where the five cents come from.

Haven't paid for one of them in a long time.

Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2022, 11:23:39 AM

Quote from: thenetwork on December 28, 2022, 10:49:05 AM

Quote from: bandit957 on December 27, 2022, 11:00:28 AM
I'm tired of the grocery bags at Kroger ripping all the time.

Speaking of grocery bags, effective Sunday (1/1/23) in Colorado, ALL shopping bags must be charged a state fee of ten cents apiece.  So no more free bags, paper or plastic.

...Gives a whole new meaning to "Dime Bags".

When Coahuila (Mexico) banned plastic bags a couple of years ago, they also banned paper bags at the same time.  That's right:  stores provide no bags anymore.  So, basically overnight, shoppers went from getting everything bagged up for them at the store to having to bring their own bags/boxes to the store.

Single-use grocery bags have been banned in England for several years.  I wasn't prepared for this when we came in 2019, and when I went to pick up a click-and-collect order from a local hypermarket, I ended up with a boot full of loose groceries.

Quote from: abefroman329 on December 28, 2022, 11:51:47 AM

Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2022, 11:23:39 AM

Quote from: thenetwork on December 28, 2022, 10:49:05 AM

Quote from: bandit957 on December 27, 2022, 11:00:28 AM
I'm tired of the grocery bags at Kroger ripping all the time.

Speaking of grocery bags, effective Sunday (1/1/23) in Colorado, ALL shopping bags must be charged a state fee of ten cents apiece.  So no more free bags, paper or plastic.

...Gives a whole new meaning to "Dime Bags".

When Coahuila (Mexico) banned plastic bags a couple of years ago, they also banned paper bags at the same time.  That's right:  stores provide no bags anymore.  So, basically overnight, shoppers went from getting everything bagged up for them at the store to having to bring their own bags/boxes to the store.

Single-use grocery bags have been banned in England for several years.  I wasn't prepared for this when we came in 2019, and when I went to pick up a click-and-collect order from a local hypermarket, I ended up with a boot full of loose groceries.

They're still legal in South Africa, and the ones we got at Pick & Pay were actually more substantial than any US chain. Good enough to reuse quite a few times. Woolworth's actually gives you canvas bags, and I brought one back with me to use as a reusable shopping bag.

Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2022, 09:32:34 AM

Quote from: kkt on December 27, 2022, 08:28:34 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on December 27, 2022, 12:55:42 AM
Kroger locations in this are are going to self-checkouts more and more.

Every grocery store here seems to be emphasizing self-checkouts.

Do you not have "hometown" grocery stores that emphasize the opposite?  I can think of one popular grocery store in this area that takes pride in customer service, and they even appear to have a policy of pushing every cart out to the parking lot for every single customer who has a cart.

None that I'm aware of.

We've got PCC, a local area chain of cooperatively-owned health food stores, and they have self-checkout, although as of now they still usually have at least a couple of lines with human checkers too.

We've got Metropolitan Market, a local area chain up kind of upscale grocery stores.  They to have self-checkout, and for now they are also keeping a line or two of human checkers.

Safeway, Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, about like anywhere I guess.

Quote from: Takumi on December 28, 2022, 01:25:12 PM
Woolworth's actually gives you canvas bags, and I brought one back with me to use as a reusable shopping bag.

Those are about as bad as you can get for the planet.  Manufacturing that much canvas is terrible for the environment.

Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2022, 01:36:09 PM

Quote from: Takumi on December 28, 2022, 01:25:12 PM
Woolworth's actually gives you canvas bags, and I brought one back with me to use as a reusable shopping bag.

Those are about as bad as you can get for the planet.  Manufacturing that much canvas is terrible for the environment.

"Feel-good environmentalism" strikes again.

I think the best solution is either just use paper bags (not plastic (i.e., degradable), more can fit in one bag, and still reusable, especially when doubled) or do what Costco does, giving out old boxes.

It all still irks me when plastic bags can also be reused in their own right, something I've always done.

I'm not sure how it really works out.  The canvas ones can be reused many times, for years, and even washed if they get dirty.  Cloth or plastic rarely get reused more than a couple of times before they tear.

Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 02:15:37 PM
I'm not sure how it really works out.  The canvas ones can be reused many times, for years, and even washed if they get dirty.  Cloth or plastic rarely get reused more than a couple of times before they tear.

Depends on plastic quality and thickness as well. Thicker plastic may serve a while.

Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 02:15:37 PM
I'm not sure how it really works out.  The canvas ones can be reused many times, for years, and even washed if they get dirty.  Cloth or plastic rarely get reused more than a couple of times before they tear.

Let's assume you go grocery shopping sixty times per year, and let's assume that a cotton bag holds three times as much as a plastic bag.  That works out to one cotton bag replacing 180 plastic bags.  National Geographic reported that a cotton bag may need to be used thousands of times before its overall environmental impact matches that of a plastic bag.  Assuming all of the above, then, it would take more than a decade of use for a reusable cotton bag to come out ahead.  This is definitely within the realm of possibility, but it's hardly guaranteed.

Quote from: kphoger on March 01, 2021, 02:20:00 PM

Quote from: National Geographic:  Sustainable Shopping–Which Bag Is Best?
Manufacturing a paper bag takes about four times as much energy as it takes to produce a plastic bag, plus the chemicals and fertilizers used in producing paper bags create additional harm to the environment.

Studies have shown that, for a paper bag to neutralize its environmental impact compared to plastic, it would have to be used anywhere from three to 43 times. Since paper bags are the least durable of all the bagging options, it is unlikely that a person would get enough use out of any one bag to even out the environmental impact.

One study from the United Kingdom (UK) found that, regarding bag production, cotton bags have to be reused 131 times before they reduce their impact on climate change to the same extent as plastic bags. To have a comparable environmental footprint (which encompasses climate change as well as other environmental effects) to plastic bags, a cotton bag potentially has to be used thousands of times. Materials other than cotton, however, perform much better in sustainability metrics. Nonwoven polypropylene (PP) is another popular option. Made from a more durable kind of plastic, these bags need to be reused around eleven times to break even with the impact of conventional plastic.

link

What I've gleaned secondhand from various studies is that only a certain subset of reusable bag is actually better overall for the environment than conventional plastic bags.  While I love a good canvas bag, and while I prefer to have my groceries put in paper bags than in plastic bags, I realize the environmental toll in producing them is much greater and may exceed their other environmental benefits.

Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2022, 01:36:09 PM

Quote from: Takumi on December 28, 2022, 01:25:12 PM
Woolworth's actually gives you canvas bags, and I brought one back with me to use as a reusable shopping bag.

Those are about as bad as you can get for the planet.  Manufacturing that much canvas is terrible for the environment.

I distinctly remember thinking how wasteful it could be long term, especially if people only use them once. (Though there was lots of waste there, just scattered around the streets...)

Quote from: Takumi on December 28, 2022, 02:39:00 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2022, 01:36:09 PM

Quote from: Takumi on December 28, 2022, 01:25:12 PM
Woolworth's actually gives you canvas bags, and I brought one back with me to use as a reusable shopping bag.

Those are about as bad as you can get for the planet.  Manufacturing that much canvas is terrible for the environment.

I distinctly remember thinking how wasteful it could be long term, especially if people only use them once. (Though there was lots of waste there, just scattered around the streets...)

Not sure why someone would use them once in areas where plastic bags are nonexistent.  We have been using ours for years.

Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2022, 02:36:13 PM

Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 02:15:37 PM
I'm not sure how it really works out.  The canvas ones can be reused many times, for years, and even washed if they get dirty.  Cloth or plastic rarely get reused more than a couple of times before they tear.

Let's assume you go grocery shopping sixty times per year, and let's assume that a cotton bag holds three times as much as a plastic bag.  That works out to one cotton bag replacing 180 plastic bags.  National Geographic reported that a cotton bag may need to be used thousands of times before its overall environmental impact matches that of a plastic bag.  Assuming all of the above, then, it would take more than a decade of use for a reusable cotton bag to come out ahead.  This is definitely within the realm of possibility, but it's hardly guaranteed.

May need to be used is not considered a scientific standard. I use my bags for as long as I have them. I've never worn one out though I have lost a few over the years. Cotton is also biodegradable so no matter how much impact my cotton bag has in production, the hundreds of plastic bags I've not used are not sitting in a landfill for the next few thousand years becoming smaller but remaining plastic. The claim that plastic bags are recyclable ignores that even those bags that are turned in for recycling often aren't recycled.

Quote from: skluth on December 28, 2022, 05:08:31 PM
Cotton is also biodegradable so no matter how much impact my cotton bag has in production, the hundreds of plastic bags I've not used are not sitting in a landfill for the next few thousand years becoming smaller but remaining plastic.

I'm OK with that until someone shows me a decent scientific reason why it's bad.

Quote from: Rothman on December 28, 2022, 04:21:21 PM

Quote from: Takumi on December 28, 2022, 02:39:00 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2022, 01:36:09 PM

Quote from: Takumi on December 28, 2022, 01:25:12 PM
Woolworth's actually gives you canvas bags, and I brought one back with me to use as a reusable shopping bag.

Those are about as bad as you can get for the planet.  Manufacturing that much canvas is terrible for the environment.

I distinctly remember thinking how wasteful it could be long term, especially if people only use them once. (Though there was lots of waste there, just scattered around the streets...)

Not sure why someone would use them once in areas where plastic bags are nonexistent.  We have been using ours for years.

I'm talking about there, not here. Beautiful country, but the litter was so much worse than here.

Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2022, 05:12:33 PM

Quote from: skluth on December 28, 2022, 05:08:31 PM
Cotton is also biodegradable so no matter how much impact my cotton bag has in production, the hundreds of plastic bags I've not used are not sitting in a landfill for the next few thousand years becoming smaller but remaining plastic.

I'm OK with that until someone shows me a decent scientific reason why it's bad.

Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2022, 01:36:09 PM

Quote from: Takumi on December 28, 2022, 01:25:12 PM
Woolworth's actually gives you canvas bags, and I brought one back with me to use as a reusable shopping bag.

Those are about as bad as you can get for the planet.  Manufacturing that much canvas is terrible for the environment.

The point is that you wouldn't need to make as many canvas bags as continuously re-using plastic bags, and one can keep re-growing cotton/paper, which also provides sustainable jobs, though it probably pays worse than working in the average chemical plant.

It would depend on the type of equipment and efficiency of the production used to make the canvas bags, as well as the distance to bring them from production to the market. If the canvas bags are made in China, but the plastic bags are made in Hackensack, then (assuming all production efficiency being somehow equal), the waste emissions alone for the trans-Pacific trip eat up a lot the environmental benefits in the near-term.* That's a bit to look up on an individual basis, but I think it's a matter of whether the other methods produce less environment damage by having a byproduct that doesn't hang around in the ecosystem for 50-500 years. I do admit that we keep personally and re-use those disposable bags several times, since they're quite useful for garbage collection, doggie waste, padding, travel laundry, et cetera. And due to travel, I have to stash a few reusable bags when I go places which do not offer them (it's also easier to lift and carry 2-3 bags by those handles, than 5-6 plastic ones, especially up a few flights of stairs).

Efficiency is why we can take a good look at an electric cars versus gas-powered vehicles because a power plant provides roughly 45-70% efficiency versus the average internal combustion engine, which is rated at 18-25% efficiency of fuel to motility, since a lot more heat and other spent-fuel byproducts are wasted.

* for example, hauling grand prix cars halfway around the globe on a cargo jet emits more CO₂ than all 20 racing cars during an entire race meeting (shhhh...)

Meanwhile in Oklahoma it's like pulling teeth to NOT get the baggers to sneak plastic bags into your order without asking, even when you've brought your own bags and explicitly asked for paper for anything that doesn't fit. Seriously, I've had them wait for me to turn around so they can put my bananas in a plastic bag for some reason. And with meat, they will just grab a plastic bag and start to put the meat in there without even asking, like there's no possible customer that wouldn't want such a thing. And I feel like a jerk having to get their attention and tell them to knock it off.

We reuse plastic bags for several things -- disposing of cat waste, cleaning out garbage from the vehicles, carrying items from home to work, covering mail and packages to take to the post office when it's raining, etc.

About the only place around here that offers paper bags is Kroger (nearest one is a half-hour away) and we just get them for the cats to play in.

Our Kroger here doesn't have paper bags.

Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2022, 05:12:33 PM

Quote from: skluth on December 28, 2022, 05:08:31 PM
Cotton is also biodegradable so no matter how much impact my cotton bag has in production, the hundreds of plastic bags I've not used are not sitting in a landfill for the next few thousand years becoming smaller but remaining plastic.

I'm OK with that until someone shows me a decent scientific reason why it's bad.

The reasoning I remember - pretty fishy one from my perspective, was that cotton is bad in production with a lot of chemicals being used in the field. While this may have some merit, then my jeans has to be the worst thing ever - but they go after plastic bags, not jeans...
Overall, this is all about who pays the grant. Since there is no rock-solid metrics, it boils down to personal opinions.
Plastic in the ocean is bad; plastic in landfills.. color me sceptical about how bad that is.  Microplastic story seems to be less than true. Cheap films should have a lot of filling materials, and I wonder how long those bags actually last in one piece - as opposed to 100% plastic bottles...

In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 07:20:21 PM
In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

There's a bin to put them back in in the stores around here (where I live, not referring to where I am now on vacation).

Quote from: Takumi on December 28, 2022, 05:35:59 PM

Quote from: Rothman on December 28, 2022, 04:21:21 PM

Quote from: Takumi on December 28, 2022, 02:39:00 PM

Quote from: kphoger on December 28, 2022, 01:36:09 PM

Quote from: Takumi on December 28, 2022, 01:25:12 PM
Woolworth's actually gives you canvas bags, and I brought one back with me to use as a reusable shopping bag.

Those are about as bad as you can get for the planet.  Manufacturing that much canvas is terrible for the environment.

I distinctly remember thinking how wasteful it could be long term, especially if people only use them once. (Though there was lots of waste there, just scattered around the streets...)

Not sure why someone would use them once in areas where plastic bags are nonexistent.  We have been using ours for years.

I'm talking about there, not here. Beautiful country, but the litter was so much worse than here.

You don't see canvas bags littering the countryside...

Quote from: 1 on December 28, 2022, 09:13:59 PM

Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 07:20:21 PM
In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

There's a bin to put them back in in the stores around here (where I live, not referring to where I am now on vacation).

Former workers tell me that despite the bins, the bags really never get recycled, either because they get mixed up with the garbage anyway or the recycling center doesn't really recycle them at their point.

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2022, 08:55:23 AM

Quote from: 1 on December 28, 2022, 09:13:59 PM

Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 07:20:21 PM
In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

There's a bin to put them back in in the stores around here (where I live, not referring to where I am now on vacation).

Former workers tell me that despite the bins, the bags really never get recycled, either because they get mixed up with the garbage anyway or the recycling center doesn't really recycle them at their point.

Collection benefits may be compacting them to save landfill capacity and making sure bags are not scattered around.
Overall, plastic recycling isn't economically attractive, as far as I understand; and contaminations can quickly cause equipment problems. I imagine receipts would be the plague of shopping bag recycling.

Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 07:20:21 PM
In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

Quote from: 1 on December 28, 2022, 09:13:59 PM
There's a bin to put them back in in the stores around here (where I live, not referring to where I am now on vacation).

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2022, 08:55:23 AM
Former workers tell me that despite the bins, the bags really never get recycled, either because they get mixed up with the garbage anyway or the recycling center doesn't really recycle them at their point.

Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2022, 09:22:03 AM
Collection benefits may be compacting them to save landfill capacity and making sure bags are not scattered around.
Overall, plastic recycling isn't economically attractive, as far as I understand; and contaminations can quickly cause equipment problems. I imagine receipts would be the plague of shopping bag recycling.

Interesting point.  When I lived in northwestern Virginia, the local landfill (a joint venture of Frederick County, Clarke County and the City of Winchester) took everything that had a recycling logo (plus some recyclables that didn't).  What amazed me was that they had a dumpster specifically for Styrofoam^TM (and similar foam packing products), which are a type of polystyrene (thus a #6 recyclable).  Even back then, it was a foregone conclusion that packing foam could not be recycled cost effectively.  I never knew for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me that they were going to compact various forms of leftover "recyclables" that were too expensive to recycle and store them in segregated areas of the landfill so that they could be dug up whenever that type of plastic was needed.

There's an article out this week in the EnergyFactor eMag entitled Advanced Recycling: A Different Way to Recycle (https://energyfactor.exxonmobil.com/advanced-recycling/form-to-function-advanced-recycling-plastic-waste/?utm_source=Taboola&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=FormToFunction&utm_content=BUSLDR_PXY&tblci=GiArxc6BmplYqbHaYu6l9UvGjXT1nWC87wtOW1xK-3ynXyCvxlIoxvvRut3NgqL4AQ#tblciGiArxc6BmplYqbHaYu6l9UvGjXT1nWC87wtOW1xK-3ynXyCvxlIoxvvRut3NgqL4AQ).  In a nutshell, the main thrust was how chemical processes were going to be used to separate aluminum mylar from plastic wrap packing.  Mega-grocer Ahold Delhaize and artificial turf manufacturer TenCate Grass were partners in the recycling prototype effort.  (Around here, Delhaize affiliate Food Lion is well-known for accepting all types of plastic bags and plastic films as recyclables).  Again, to the point, it wouldn't surprise me that they compacted the various forms of leftover "recyclables" and stored them in segregated areas of the landfill..."  Sounds like they are exploring how to dig this stuff out and try to use it.  When the main ingredient is "free", the rest of the cost of a product is simply a "production cost".

For the record, EnergyFactor eMag is produced by ExxonMobil.  I tend to pull up articles about chemical processes, so I'm guessing that's how I ended getting "tagged" with this article.

Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 29, 2022, 10:57:19 AM

Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 07:20:21 PM
In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

Quote from: 1 on December 28, 2022, 09:13:59 PM
There's a bin to put them back in in the stores around here (where I live, not referring to where I am now on vacation).

Quote from: Rothman on December 29, 2022, 08:55:23 AM
Former workers tell me that despite the bins, the bags really never get recycled, either because they get mixed up with the garbage anyway or the recycling center doesn't really recycle them at their point.

Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2022, 09:22:03 AM
Collection benefits may be compacting them to save landfill capacity and making sure bags are not scattered around.
Overall, plastic recycling isn't economically attractive, as far as I understand; and contaminations can quickly cause equipment problems. I imagine receipts would be the plague of shopping bag recycling.

Interesting point.  When I lived in northwestern Virginia, the local landfill (a joint venture of Frederick County, Clarke County and the City of Winchester) took everything that had a recycling logo (plus some recyclables that didn't).  What amazed me was that they had a dumpster specifically for Styrofoam^TM (and similar foam packing products), which are a type of polystyrene (thus a #6 recyclable).  Even back then, it was a foregone conclusion that packing foam could not be recycled cost effectively.  I never knew for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me that they were going to compact various forms of leftover "recyclables" that were too expensive to recycle and store them in segregated areas of the landfill so that they could be dug up whenever that type of plastic was needed.

There's an article out this week in the EnergyFactor eMag entitled Advanced Recycling: A Different Way to Recycle (https://energyfactor.exxonmobil.com/advanced-recycling/form-to-function-advanced-recycling-plastic-waste/?utm_source=Taboola&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=FormToFunction&utm_content=BUSLDR_PXY&tblci=GiArxc6BmplYqbHaYu6l9UvGjXT1nWC87wtOW1xK-3ynXyCvxlIoxvvRut3NgqL4AQ#tblciGiArxc6BmplYqbHaYu6l9UvGjXT1nWC87wtOW1xK-3ynXyCvxlIoxvvRut3NgqL4AQ).  In a nutshell, the main thrust was how chemical processes were going to be used to separate aluminum mylar from plastic wrap packing.  Mega-grocer Ahold Delhaize and artificial turf manufacturer TenCate Grass were partners in the recycling prototype effort.  (Around here, Delhaize affiliate Food Lion is well-known for accepting all types of plastic bags and plastic films as recyclables).  Again, to the point, it wouldn't surprise me that they compacted the various forms of leftover "recyclables" and stored them in segregated areas of the landfill..."  Sounds like they are exploring how to dig this stuff out and try to use it.  When the main ingredient is "free", the rest of the cost of a product is simply a "production cost".

For the record, EnergyFactor eMag is produced by ExxonMobil.  I tend to pull up articles about chemical processes, so I'm guessing that's how I ended getting "tagged" with this article.

Since we're on a road forum, it may be worth mentioning that a lot of plastics can go into asphalt as additives. Looks like a simple way to "recycle" a lot of stuff which wouldn't make sense to process otherwise.   
Styrofoam, from my experience, can be very efficiently compacted with a small amount of solvent. It may be a difficult question for EPA, though.
And as far as I understand, it will  disintegrate into fine particles in certain conditions - may be not a bad idea for landfill to facilitate the process.

Saw a video not long ago about a company in So Cal that recycles styrofoam to make those styrofoam-like thin coffee cups, foam plates, and similar products. Don't have a link but the video was not complementary towards the company as the reporter showed the company lobbies the government with "proof" that styrofoam is recyclable but it can only be recycled once into their other products and can't be recycled again.

There is a company in England that recycles chewed bubble gum into various products such as shoes and coffee mugs.

Quote from: bandit957 on December 29, 2022, 11:50:35 AM
There is a company in England that recycles chewed bubble gum into various products such as shoes and coffee mugs.

That's the definition of unnecessary. We don't have to reuse or recycle literally everything.

Quote from: formulanone on December 28, 2022, 05:47:12 PM
The point is that you wouldn't need to make as many canvas bags as continuously re-using plastic bags, and one can keep re-growing cotton/paper, which also provides sustainable jobs, though it probably pays worse than working in the average chemical plant.

The point is that manufacturing canvas or paper is much worse for the environment than manufacturing plastic bags.  So yeah, you can keep re-growing cotton or trees, but that just amplifies the damage done to the environment, because it's being re-grown for the purpose of making bags out of it–not to just make the world pretty and green and nice.

There's a meme going around these parts that someone picked up a Dollar General bag they found along the roadside before it could sprout into a new DG store.

Quote from: kphoger on December 29, 2022, 01:52:00 PM

Quote from: formulanone on December 28, 2022, 05:47:12 PM
The point is that you wouldn't need to make as many canvas bags as continuously re-using plastic bags, and one can keep re-growing cotton/paper, which also provides sustainable jobs, though it probably pays worse than working in the average chemical plant.

The point is that manufacturing canvas or paper is much worse for the environment than manufacturing plastic bags.  So yeah, you can keep re-growing cotton or trees, but that just amplifies the damage done to the environment, because it's being re-grown for the purpose of making bags out of it–not to just make the world pretty and green and nice.

Point is what "worse" actually mean. A real big complain about plastic waste is that it gets scattered and doesn't decay. Manufacturing issues are less pronounced.
While cotton and paper have their distinct problems (such as pesticide and herbicide residue;  deforestation and bleaching byproducts) it's hard to compare those quantitatively. Until, of course, funding agency has some interests. Such interests are not uncommon. Opiates is a relatively recent story...

However if you want to compare - be consistent. One year supply of shopping plastic bags should less damaging than one year of paper bags? OK, that is less paper than one year of  newspaper subscription. Lets ban newspapers, right?     

Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2022, 02:23:07 PM
However if you want to compare - be consistent. One year supply of shopping plastic bags should less damaging than one year of paper bags? OK, that is less paper than one year of  newspaper subscription. Lets ban newspapers, right?     

I'm not actually in favor of any ban–newspaper, plastic, paper, or canvas.  As I've said, I prefer paper bags over plastic bags, even though I'm aware of the toll their manufacture takes on the environment.  And actually, I usually just use a couple of corrugated cardboard trays (https://sustainableproducecontainer.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/master-case-short-end-angle-600x600.jpg) that I grabbed from the hopper at Aldi a few years ago, only grabbing a bag or two if I can't fit everything in those.

Quote from: kphoger on December 29, 2022, 02:46:12 PM

Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2022, 02:23:07 PM
However if you want to compare - be consistent. One year supply of shopping plastic bags should less damaging than one year of paper bags? OK, that is less paper than one year of  newspaper subscription. Lets ban newspapers, right?     

I'm not actually in favor of any ban–newspaper, plastic, paper, or canvas.  As I've said, I prefer paper bags over plastic bags, even though I'm aware of the toll their manufacture takes on the environment.  And actually, I usually just use a couple of corrugated cardboard trays (https://sustainableproducecontainer.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/master-case-short-end-angle-600x600.jpg) that I grabbed from the hopper at Aldi a few years ago, only grabbing a bag or two if I can't fit everything in those.

That "ban" was in no way directed towards you personally, more to National Geographic (or whoever published that?) publishing the argument and collective "governments". Even then, I am pretty sure that there are trigger ban happy people around, and  I don't want to give them any ideas.
This is more of a call for reasoning consistency. There are multiple aspects of things being polluting in different parts of lifecycle. I always thought that runaway plastic is the big problem to address by banning bags. Decomposition (or lack of) in landfill, while discussed a lot, is of "and why exactly is that a problem?" area for me. Resource consumption is certainly a problem - but less than straightforward one when different types,  like cotton vs oil for plastic  vs trees for paper (and bags are likely recycled paper anyway) are considered. 

Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2022, 03:18:35 PM
I always thought that runaway plastic is the big problem to address by banning bags. Decomposition (or lack of) in landfill, while discussed a lot, is of "and why exactly is that a problem?" area for me.

Indeed, for me as well.  I still have a vivid memory of looking out the bus window somewhere on the south side of Chihuahua City in 2001, and there was a vacant lot the size of a city block completely covered with single-use plastic sacks.  It was one of the ugliest sights I've ever seen, and it has stuck with me.

There was a problem with Walmart bags clogging up drainage systems that they were referred to as Arkansas tumbleweed.

Quote from: 1 on December 28, 2022, 09:13:59 PM

Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 07:20:21 PM
In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

There's a bin to put them back in in the stores around here (where I live, not referring to where I am now on vacation).

Same here, both our Publixes and Wal-Marts take them. We just round em all up, save about 25-50% for reuse and return the rest.

Quote from: formulanone on December 29, 2022, 06:48:05 PM

Quote from: 1 on December 28, 2022, 09:13:59 PM

Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 07:20:21 PM
In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

There's a bin to put them back in in the stores around here (where I live, not referring to where I am now on vacation).

Same here, both our Publixes and Wal-Marts take them. We just round em all up, save about 25-50% for reuse and return the rest.

The problem I have is that I forget to take them back so often that I end up amassing a great deal of them.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 28, 2022, 06:48:20 PM
Meanwhile in Oklahoma it's like pulling teeth to NOT get the baggers to sneak plastic bags into your order without asking, even when you've brought your own bags and explicitly asked for paper for anything that doesn't fit. Seriously, I've had them wait for me to turn around so they can put my bananas in a plastic bag for some reason. And with meat, they will just grab a plastic bag and start to put the meat in there without even asking, like there's no possible customer that wouldn't want such a thing. And I feel like a jerk having to get their attention and tell them to knock it off.

Another bag-related annoyance I just encountered today that I would hope people in more civilized areas don't have to deal with–the cashier not taking your bag and moving it to the bagging area, but just leaving it where you sat it, scanning the items and putting them back on the belt they got them from. Because obviously if I want to use my own bag, that means I also want to do the whole bagging process myself.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: bandit957 on December 09, 2022, 08:00:00 PM
I just wish we could get more IGA stores again.

Those trigger memories of of the old Grand Unions my Grand Mother (see what I did there?) and I went to when I was but a shoot. Cigarette butts on the floor, and the chunky old electric-mechanical registers. What's a debit card?

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 31, 2022, 05:35:46 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 28, 2022, 06:48:20 PM
Meanwhile in Oklahoma it's like pulling teeth to NOT get the baggers to sneak plastic bags into your order without asking, even when you've brought your own bags and explicitly asked for paper for anything that doesn't fit. Seriously, I've had them wait for me to turn around so they can put my bananas in a plastic bag for some reason. And with meat, they will just grab a plastic bag and start to put the meat in there without even asking, like there's no possible customer that wouldn't want such a thing. And I feel like a jerk having to get their attention and tell them to knock it off.

Another bag-related annoyance I just encountered today that I would hope people in more civilized areas don't have to deal with–the cashier not taking your bag and moving it to the bagging area, but just leaving it where you sat it, scanning the items and putting them back on the belt they got them from. Because obviously if I want to use my own bag, that means I also want to do the whole bagging process myself.  :rolleyes:

One of the grocery stores I used back in St Louis only bagged your groceries if the baggers used their own plastic or paper bags. Occasionally the bagger would still bag my groceries but I usually did it myself. I prefer to bag my own groceries because I got tired of all the damaged goods like squished bread or bruised fruit.

When I worked at Walmart, they collected the bags of plastic bags and hangers and compressed them into bales with layers of cardboard. The result looked like a giant multi-layer Oreo cookie. Those were then picked up for recycling along with the cardboard bales.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 31, 2022, 05:35:46 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 28, 2022, 06:48:20 PM
Meanwhile in Oklahoma it's like pulling teeth to NOT get the baggers to sneak plastic bags into your order without asking, even when you've brought your own bags and explicitly asked for paper for anything that doesn't fit. Seriously, I've had them wait for me to turn around so they can put my bananas in a plastic bag for some reason. And with meat, they will just grab a plastic bag and start to put the meat in there without even asking, like there's no possible customer that wouldn't want such a thing. And I feel like a jerk having to get their attention and tell them to knock it off.

Another bag-related annoyance I just encountered today that I would hope people in more civilized areas don't have to deal with–the cashier not taking your bag and moving it to the bagging area, but just leaving it where you sat it, scanning the items and putting them back on the belt they got them from. Because obviously if I want to use my own bag, that means I also want to do the whole bagging process myself.  :rolleyes:

Are you putting your bags on the belt at the beginning of the order, or the end?

Quote from: abefroman329 on December 31, 2022, 05:44:11 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 31, 2022, 05:35:46 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 28, 2022, 06:48:20 PM
Meanwhile in Oklahoma it's like pulling teeth to NOT get the baggers to sneak plastic bags into your order without asking, even when you've brought your own bags and explicitly asked for paper for anything that doesn't fit. Seriously, I've had them wait for me to turn around so they can put my bananas in a plastic bag for some reason. And with meat, they will just grab a plastic bag and start to put the meat in there without even asking, like there's no possible customer that wouldn't want such a thing. And I feel like a jerk having to get their attention and tell them to knock it off.

Another bag-related annoyance I just encountered today that I would hope people in more civilized areas don't have to deal with–the cashier not taking your bag and moving it to the bagging area, but just leaving it where you sat it, scanning the items and putting them back on the belt they got them from. Because obviously if I want to use my own bag, that means I also want to do the whole bagging process myself.  :rolleyes:

Are you putting your bags on the belt at the beginning of the order, or the end?

At the beginning. Normally, they will grab the bags and move them to the bagging area, then start scanning items and bagging them.

This guy just left the bags on the belt and reached over them to grab my items (2 gallons of milk), then reached back over them to set the milk back down back on the belt behind the bags. It was at Braum's, not a real grocery store, so I assume he just doesn't normally work the grocery section or something like that.

Quote from: skluth on December 31, 2022, 04:40:54 PM
I prefer to bag my own groceries

Yep, me too.  I used to choose my checkout lane based on who the bagger was, because I wanted a good bagger who actually knew how to pack sacks.  But then I changed strategy, instead choosing the checkout lane with the slowest bagger;  that way, I could jump in and "help out", knowing that only one or two sacks would end up being packed by the bagger.

Now we have self-checkout lanes with full-length conveyor belts, so that's what we do instead.  And I've gone to using nearly 100% reused produce trays–only grabbing a sack if I can't fit everything in the tray.

https://www.koin.com/news/oregon/months-after-not-being-paid-a-former-fred-meyer-employee-is-still-trying-to-get-his-money/ (https://www.koin.com/news/oregon/months-after-not-being-paid-a-former-fred-meyer-employee-is-still-trying-to-get-his-money/)

Here is one that can delay the Kroger/Albertsons deal.

Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 07:20:21 PM
In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

Where are you getting plastic bags? I have not seen plastic bags anywhere in Western Washington for a long time now. It's paper, reusable, or that other kind of recyclable plastic like you can get at Walmart.

---

Plastic abounds here in Japan, no bans that I am aware of.

Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2023, 02:24:26 AM
Where are you getting plastic bags? I have not seen plastic bags anywhere in Western Washington for a long time now. It's paper, reusable, or that other kind of recyclable plastic like you can get at Walmart.

Restaurants still use the flimsy plastic bags, as well as styrofoam packaging. Even in Seattle proper.

Does anyone actually prefer plastic bags? Even before there started being a push to ban them in some places, I was always kind of annoyed by them since they tear so easily if you put more than one or two items in them. I remember walking up the stairs to my last apartment with like twenty of them in my arms since I didn't want to make the trip any more times than I needed to and thinking to myself how much easier it would be if it were all in four paper bags or whatever.

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 12, 2023, 04:01:56 AM
Does anyone actually prefer plastic bags? Even before there started being a push to ban them in some places, I was always kind of annoyed by them since they tear so easily if you put more than one or two items in them. I remember walking up the stairs to my last apartment with like twenty of them in my arms since I didn't want to make the trip any more times than I needed to and thinking to myself how much easier it would be if it were all in four paper bags or whatever.

Paper bags around here don't have handles, even though handled paper bags do exist. In addition, a tiny rip in a paper bag is more likely to expand than a tiny rip in a plastic bag. (I still try to avoid plastic bags.)

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 12, 2023, 04:01:56 AM
Does anyone actually prefer plastic bags? Even before there started being a push to ban them in some places, I was always kind of annoyed by them since they tear so easily if you put more than one or two items in them. I remember walking up the stairs to my last apartment with like twenty of them in my arms since I didn't want to make the trip any more times than I needed to and thinking to myself how much easier it would be if it were all in four paper bags or whatever.

One advantage of plastic bags is they are somewhat leakproof (some of them). I reused quite a few for cat litter box cleaning. Can easily take 2 bags a day.
Another one, they are light. Compartmentalizing travel bag with "one set of clothes per plastic bag" didn't add any weight but allowed for much better management of space.
_spelling

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 12, 2023, 04:01:56 AM
Does anyone actually prefer plastic bags? Even before there started being a push to ban them in some places, I was always kind of annoyed by them since they tear so easily if you put more than one or two items in them. I remember walking up the stairs to my last apartment with like twenty of them in my arms since I didn't want to make the trip any more times than I needed to and thinking to myself how much easier it would be if it were all in four paper bags or whatever.

For a large shopping trip, I hate plastic sacks.  This is mainly because I hate ending up with 850 bags in my car, none of which will actually stand up and stay put while I'm driving home.  But if I'm only buying a few small items, then I think a big paper sack is a huge waste (especially considering, as I said, the environmental toll of producing them), so I'll go for plastic instead.

When it comes to reusing them, each has its place.  Plastic is useful when you need something leakproof:  lining a wastebasket, dumping moldy food into, etc.  Paper is useful when transporting things:  bottles of soda and/or snack foods to a party, for example.

Quote from: kalvado on January 12, 2023, 06:51:54 AM
One advantage of plastic bags is they are somewhat leakproof (some of them). I reused quite a few for cat litter box cleaning. Can easily take 2 bags a day.
Another one, they are light. Compartmentalizing travel bag with "one set of clothes per plastic bag" didn't add any weight but allowed for much better management of space.

A great re-use for plastic sacks is to keep them in the car for cleanup.  Need a place to keep your Wendy's trash?  Did your kid puke all over himself, and now you need a place to contain his stinky clothes?  Did your baby have a diaper emergency, but you're in the middle of nowhere?  Did you go to the swimming pool or the beach, and now you need to keep your swimsuits and towels from soaking the upholstery?  Etc.

Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 10:21:39 AM

Quote from: kalvado on January 12, 2023, 06:51:54 AM
One advantage of plastic bags is they are somewhat leakproof (some of them). I reused quite a few for cat litter box cleaning. Can easily take 2 bags a day.
Another one, they are light. Compartmentalizing travel bag with "one set of clothes per plastic bag" didn't add any weight but allowed for much better management of space.

A great re-use for plastic sacks is to keep them in the car for cleanup.  Need a place to keep your Wendy's trash?  Did your kid puke all over himself, and now you need a place to contain his stinky clothes?  Did your baby have a diaper emergency, but you're in the middle of nowhere?  Did you go to the swimming pool or the beach, and now you need to keep your swimsuits and towels from soaking the upholstery?  Etc.

Well, I don't have that extreme cases, but I use Amazon bubble-wrap envelopes for periodic car cleanups... Anything that is delivered in a plastic bag, actually - abet those are usually smaller.. 

I typically keep several plastic bags in the trunk of each car for use in emergencies.  For example, in Selma, Alabama, I stepped in dog mess while walking backward to try to get a good angle on the Edmund Pettus Bridge for a photo, and wrapped a plastic bag around my shoe to avoid tracking feces onto the car carpet.

Quote from: kphoger on January 12, 2023, 10:18:49 AM
For a large shopping trip, I hate plastic sacks.  This is mainly because I hate ending up with 850 bags in my car, none of which will actually stand up and stay put while I'm driving home.  But if I'm only buying a few small items, then I think a big paper sack is a huge waste (especially considering, as I said, the environmental toll of producing them), so I'll go for plastic instead.

In that particular case I usually just avoid using a bag at all. Especially if the number of items is less than three, or if some of the items are small enough I can carry them in my pocket.

My big win is anytime I am buying a product that can contain other products, like when I buy plastic storage bins. Then I can just put all the items in that.

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 12, 2023, 02:00:52 PM
My big win is anytime I am buying a product that can contain other products, like when I buy plastic storage bins. Then I can just put all the items in that.

Disposable roasting pans, too.

Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2023, 02:24:26 AM

Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 07:20:21 PM
In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

Where are you getting plastic bags? I have not seen plastic bags anywhere in Western Washington for a long time now. It's paper, reusable, or that other kind of recyclable plastic like you can get at Walmart.

Target, Safeways in Shoreline (not Seattle)

Quote from: kalvado on January 12, 2023, 06:51:54 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 12, 2023, 04:01:56 AM
Does anyone actually prefer plastic bags? Even before there started being a push to ban them in some places, I was always kind of annoyed by them since they tear so easily if you put more than one or two items in them. I remember walking up the stairs to my last apartment with like twenty of them in my arms since I didn't want to make the trip any more times than I needed to and thinking to myself how much easier it would be if it were all in four paper bags or whatever.

One advantage of plastic bags is they are somewhat leakproof (some of them). I reused quite a few for cat litter box cleaning. Can easily take 2 bags a day.
Another one, they are light. Compartmentalizing travel bag with "one set of clothes per plastic bag" didn't add any weight but allowed for much better management of space.

I keep a one gallon lidded trash bin outside my back door for clumped litter. It takes about four days or so to fill (I have a small cat), at which point I switch out the bag and toss the old bag with litter into the dumpster. The grocery bags are too big for that plus we get charged 10¢ per bag locally so I just buy a roll of small bags (usually 3-4 gallons as I can't find any one gallon bags).

Quote from: kkt on January 14, 2023, 01:58:12 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2023, 02:24:26 AM

Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 07:20:21 PM
In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

Where are you getting plastic bags? I have not seen plastic bags anywhere in Western Washington for a long time now. It's paper, reusable, or that other kind of recyclable plastic like you can get at Walmart.

Target, Safeways in Shoreline (not Seattle)

I assume they are the newer, thicker kind?

Quote from: jakeroot on January 14, 2023, 07:10:28 PM

Quote from: kkt on January 14, 2023, 01:58:12 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2023, 02:24:26 AM

Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 07:20:21 PM
In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

Where are you getting plastic bags? I have not seen plastic bags anywhere in Western Washington for a long time now. It's paper, reusable, or that other kind of recyclable plastic like you can get at Walmart.

Target, Safeways in Shoreline (not Seattle)

I assume they are the newer, thicker kind?

Yes, they could be (and I do) reuse them at least once or twice.

Quote from: kkt on January 14, 2023, 08:00:09 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on January 14, 2023, 07:10:28 PM

Quote from: kkt on January 14, 2023, 01:58:12 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2023, 02:24:26 AM

Quote from: kkt on December 28, 2022, 07:20:21 PM
In actual practice, most plastic bags are not recyclable.  The stores don't take them back (except my dry cleaner takes back the big plastic garment bags), curbside recycling doesn't take them, even at a recycling center they don't want them because they don't have a plastics recycling number on them.  I use a few for garbage of various sorts or to hold a book or magazine when I'm walking outside, but that's not nearly all of them if I just accepted the plastic bags stores give me for groceries.

Where are you getting plastic bags? I have not seen plastic bags anywhere in Western Washington for a long time now. It's paper, reusable, or that other kind of recyclable plastic like you can get at Walmart.

Target, Safeways in Shoreline (not Seattle)

I assume they are the newer, thicker kind?

Yes, they could be (and I do) reuse them at least once or twice.

Gotcha. I was thinking you meant the older, flimsy plastic ones (like the kind Bruce mentioned above) that were everywhere before a couple years ago.

I had been recycling those thicker plastic bags. Maybe I got that wrong.

Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2023, 02:24:26 AM

Where are you getting plastic bags? I have not seen plastic bags anywhere in Western Washington for a long time now. It's paper, reusable, or that other kind of recyclable plastic like you can get at Walmart.

The Renton Fred Meyer also has thick plastic bags.  My car was stuck in the shop for three weeks, and I left my reusable bags in the car.  I had stopped sending my plastic bags back to recycling for years in anticipation of a plastic bag ban, so that I could and still do have a supply of small trash bags.

Quote from: ErmineNotyours on January 17, 2023, 05:00:40 AM

Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2023, 02:24:26 AM

Where are you getting plastic bags? I have not seen plastic bags anywhere in Western Washington for a long time now. It's paper, reusable, or that other kind of recyclable plastic like you can get at Walmart.

The Renton Fred Meyer also has thick plastic bags.  My car was stuck in the shop for three weeks, and I left my reusable bags in the car.  I had stopped sending my plastic bags back to recycling for years in anticipation of a plastic bag ban, so that I could and still do have a supply of small trash bags.

I should start stockpiling. I was thinking about tossing a bunch of bags, but I might as well keep them for use year down the road when they're banned.

I wonder what the Spirit Jet Blue decision will mean for Albertsons Kroger merger?

SM-G996U

Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 17, 2023, 09:11:24 AM

Quote from: ErmineNotyours on January 17, 2023, 05:00:40 AM

Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2023, 02:24:26 AM

Where are you getting plastic bags? I have not seen plastic bags anywhere in Western Washington for a long time now. It's paper, reusable, or that other kind of recyclable plastic like you can get at Walmart.

The Renton Fred Meyer also has thick plastic bags.  My car was stuck in the shop for three weeks, and I left my reusable bags in the car.  I had stopped sending my plastic bags back to recycling for years in anticipation of a plastic bag ban, so that I could and still do have a supply of small trash bags.

I should start stockpiling. I was thinking about tossing a bunch of bags, but I might as well keep them for use year down the road when they're banned.

That's what I've been doing since plastic bags were banned a few years ago.

Target in Northgate still gives out plastic bags.  They cost 8 cents or something, but they are reusable.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 17, 2023, 09:11:24 AM

Quote from: ErmineNotyours on January 17, 2023, 05:00:40 AM

Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2023, 02:24:26 AM

Where are you getting plastic bags? I have not seen plastic bags anywhere in Western Washington for a long time now. It's paper, reusable, or that other kind of recyclable plastic like you can get at Walmart.

The Renton Fred Meyer also has thick plastic bags.  My car was stuck in the shop for three weeks, and I left my reusable bags in the car.  I had stopped sending my plastic bags back to recycling for years in anticipation of a plastic bag ban, so that I could and still do have a supply of small trash bags.

I should start stockpiling. I was thinking about tossing a bunch of bags, but I might as well keep them for use year down the road when they're banned.

You want mine? I can get loads of them (more than we can use) out here in SD... maybe I should start a service for people in plastic bag ban areas that want them for trash bags lol.

Quote from: SD Mapman on March 10, 2023, 10:16:49 PM
You want mine? I can get loads of them (more than we can use) out here in SD... maybe I should start a service for people in plastic bag ban areas that want them for trash bags lol.

When Coahuila first banned bags in stores, our friends asked us to bring down a bunch the next time we made the drive from Kansas.  It is AMAZING how many plastic grocery bags you can fit in a small vacuum-seal bag!

Quote from: bulldog1979 on December 31, 2022, 05:33:25 PM
When I worked at Walmart, they collected the bags of plastic bags and hangers and compressed them into bales with layers of cardboard. The result looked like a giant multi-layer Oreo cookie. Those were then picked up for recycling along with the cardboard bales.

My current retail side hustle (which increasingly is less of a side hustle as I gain seniority) will not accept anything else but cardboard or other paper products. No plastic and no hangers.

In fact we used to make a bale every week regularly until the vendor botched that he was losing money because he wasn't turning in full bales. So now we wait until the compactor is full.

Having just visited a local Shaw's, which along with Star Market is owned by Albertsons, I can only say that (for now) Kroger buying Albertsons would be a good thing. Besides being more expensive, Star/Shaw's appear dated and designed for a different era (i.e. before CVS, Walmart, Trader Joe's, et al got in the grocery business).

Some mergers result in the things you don't like being spread around, rather than the ones you do like.

https://www.axios.com/pro/retail-deals/2023/06/01/kroger-albertsons-merger-stores-divestitures

Here is more on the proposed deal if approved.

Kroger is going to divest 413 Kroger and Albertsons (and affiliated) locations to C&S Wholesale Grocers as part of the merger agreement. C&S is best known as the owners of a Piggly Wiggly franchise in North Carolina, but they also have a history of taking over smaller, failing grocery chains.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/kroger-and-albertsons-companies-announce-comprehensive-divestiture-plan-with-cs-wholesale-grocers-llc-in-connection-with-proposed-merger-301921933.html

WA: 104 Albertsons Cos. and Kroger stores
CA: 66 Albertsons Cos. and Kroger stores
CO: 52 Albertsons Cos. stores
OR: 49 Albertsons Cos. and Kroger stores
TX/LA: 28 Albertsons Cos. stores
AZ: 24 Albertsons Cos. stores
NV: 15 Albertsons Cos. stores
IL: 14 Kroger stores
AK: 14 Albertsons Cos. stores
ID: 13 Albertsons Cos. stores
NM: 12 Albertsons Cos. stores
MT/UT/WY: 12 Albertsons Cos. stores
DC/MD/VA: 10 Harris Teeter stores

I would love to see Piggly Wiggly in the DC Area.......

104 stores in Washington? That's going to devastate so many communities. Kroger and Safeway don't have that much overlap, even in urban areas.

The article says that as many as 237 additional stores may be spun off to C&S if Kroger/Albertsons is required to as part of the merger.  Either way, no locations were specified besides the list of states.  There are 3 store banners getting spun off also: Carrs (Albertsons), Mariano's, and QFC (Kroger).

https://www.ktvu.com/news/san-francisco-safeway-to-close-its-doors-after-40-years.amp

Safeway one of the Albertsons owned supermarket brands to close one of their stores in San Francisco.

Quote from: Bruce on September 08, 2023, 02:05:00 PM
That's going to devastate so many communities.

By...changing brands?

Quote from: Takumi on January 05, 2024, 06:22:25 PM

Quote from: Bruce on September 08, 2023, 02:05:00 PM
That's going to devastate so many communities.

By...changing brands?

The spun-off stores will quickly close and bring about more food deserts. We saw this happen during the Albertsons/Safeway merger (where the stores were spun off to Haggen, which couldn't handle the uptake and itself nearly died) not too long ago. Lack of competition hurts the consumer.

Quote from: Bruce on January 05, 2024, 11:57:43 PM

Quote from: Takumi on January 05, 2024, 06:22:25 PM

Quote from: Bruce on September 08, 2023, 02:05:00 PM
That's going to devastate so many communities.

By...changing brands?

The spun-off stores will quickly close and bring about more food deserts. We saw this happen during the Albertsons/Safeway merger (where the stores were spun off to Haggen, which couldn't handle the uptake and itself nearly died) not too long ago. Lack of competition hurts the consumer.

I'm going to call bunk on this.  When competitors like this merge, it opens the playing field for newer, smaller competition to emerge and grow.  We've seen it here around Chicago with the demise of Dominick's at the hands of Safeway.  Other, smaller, local players such as Pete's Fresh Market, Tony's Finer Foods, and others have taken a number of the stores (those that aren't Mariano's under the Kroger umbrella) to grow.

Urban food deserts are pretty much a myth.  People can travel, *gasp* a extra mile to a store there easily.  Rural food deserts on the other hand exist all over the place, but are hardly acknowledged by the press or politicians.  It's rural areas that lack choice as they typically might have a Walmart and that's it.

Meh.  I was agreeing with that post up until the statement that urban food deserts are a myth.  I've certainly seen others experience them.  To say they're a myth is just a base form of classism.

In the Cleveland market, because of issues with grocery unions a few decades back, Kroger has refused to return to the area and Safeway was never here.

There was Fisher Fazios, Stop & Shop, and Pick N Pay.

Giant Eagle came in and bought out most of the Fisher-Fazios and Stop & Shops, while Tops came in and bought up the PnP chain.   They were pretty much the big dogs in town, aside of the Walmart & Kmart Super Centers.

Tops pulled out in the mod-late 00s, but there really was no other large national or regional chain to fill those closed stores.   However two local chains stepped up to the plate:

Dave's Market, which was previously a smaller urban area grocer and

Marcs, which up to that point was more of a Big Lots store selling more non-grocery than grocery items.

Dave's filled the "grocery desert" in the urban areas of Cleveland, covering what areas Tops abandoned.  Marc's did the same in the suburban areas and pretty much flip-flopped the ratio of non-grocery/grocery products.  Marc's is now widely known as a supermarket rather than a "discount store".

So even if the Kroger/Albertsons merger goes through, and some storefronts are abandoned, if the need is still there someone will step up to provide shoppers an alternative choice.  May not be a national or regional chain, but perhaps a local operation that will further invest in their town.

Quote from: Brandon on January 06, 2024, 09:35:31 AM
I'm going to call bunk on this.  When competitors like this merge, it opens the playing field for newer, smaller competition to emerge and grow.  We've seen it here around Chicago with the demise of Dominick's at the hands of Safeway.  Other, smaller, local players such as Pete's Fresh Market, Tony's Finer Foods, and others have taken a number of the stores (those that aren't Mariano's under the Kroger umbrella) to grow.

Urban food deserts are pretty much a myth.  People can travel, *gasp* a extra mile to a store there easily.  Rural food deserts on the other hand exist all over the place, but are hardly acknowledged by the press or politicians.  It's rural areas that lack choice as they typically might have a Walmart and that's it.

Law professors and retail nonprofits (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/27/kroger-albertsons-merger-groceries-prices-food-deserts) say it'll create food deserts and hurt competition. The Safeway-Albertsons merger did create food deserts (https://www.kuow.org/stories/a-2015-grocery-merger-made-this-bellingham-neighborhood-a-food-desert-are-others-next), which yes do exist in cities. People could travel, but they might not have the means to do so (lack of cars, lack of safe walking/cycling routes, lack of transit, etc.). Would you want to be forced to travel double or triple the time for groceries every week?

Quote from: Bruce on January 06, 2024, 03:50:52 PM

Quote from: Brandon on January 06, 2024, 09:35:31 AM
I'm going to call bunk on this.  When competitors like this merge, it opens the playing field for newer, smaller competition to emerge and grow.  We've seen it here around Chicago with the demise of Dominick's at the hands of Safeway.  Other, smaller, local players such as Pete's Fresh Market, Tony's Finer Foods, and others have taken a number of the stores (those that aren't Mariano's under the Kroger umbrella) to grow.

Urban food deserts are pretty much a myth.  People can travel, *gasp* a extra mile to a store there easily.  Rural food deserts on the other hand exist all over the place, but are hardly acknowledged by the press or politicians.  It's rural areas that lack choice as they typically might have a Walmart and that's it.

Law professors and retail nonprofits (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/27/kroger-albertsons-merger-groceries-prices-food-deserts) say it'll create food deserts and hurt competition. The Safeway-Albertsons merger did create food deserts (https://www.kuow.org/stories/a-2015-grocery-merger-made-this-bellingham-neighborhood-a-food-desert-are-others-next), which yes do exist in cities. People could travel, but they might not have the means to do so (lack of cars, lack of safe walking/cycling routes, lack of transit, etc.). Would you want to be forced to travel double or triple the time for groceries every week?

Out here in Western Colorado, at least, aside of the occasional Target and Walmart supercedes, It's all Krogers and Safeways, and even a couple of rogue  Albertsons-branded stores. 

Many stores post-merger will overlap greatly in some cities, and it sounds like the company that runs Piggly Wiggly is ready to come into the region. 

Quote from: Rothman on January 06, 2024, 09:51:25 AM
Meh.  I was agreeing with that post up until the statement that urban food deserts are a myth.

Same here.

State of Washington AG sues to block merger: https://www.npr.org/2024/01/15/1224401179/kroger-albertsons-merger-grocery-lawsuit-washington

Good they need to block this merger. It's like anti-monopoly sentiments don't exist anymore in this country.

Quote from: Big John on January 15, 2024, 06:47:27 PM
State of Washington AG sues to block merger: https://www.npr.org/2024/01/15/1224401179/kroger-albertsons-merger-grocery-lawsuit-washington

Kentucky needs to get off its duff instantly.

Quote from: bandit957 on January 15, 2024, 07:05:07 PM

Quote from: Big John on January 15, 2024, 06:47:27 PM
State of Washington AG sues to block merger: https://www.npr.org/2024/01/15/1224401179/kroger-albertsons-merger-grocery-lawsuit-washington

Kentucky needs to get off its duff instantly.

Why? Albertsons doesn't have a footprint in Kentucky. And with Meijer, Target, Walmart and Publix in the state, it's not like Kroger has a monopoly on the grocery market.

Quote from: hbelkins on January 15, 2024, 07:50:30 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on January 15, 2024, 07:05:07 PM

Quote from: Big John on January 15, 2024, 06:47:27 PM
State of Washington AG sues to block merger: https://www.npr.org/2024/01/15/1224401179/kroger-albertsons-merger-grocery-lawsuit-washington

Kentucky needs to get off its duff instantly.

Why? Albertsons doesn't have a footprint in Kentucky. And with Meijer, Target, Walmart and Publix in the state, it's not like Kroger has a monopoly on the grocery market.

There are markets where Albertsons and Kroger are the only two shops in town. Heck, downtown Milwaukee is pretty much exclusively Kroger unless you want to cough up at an organic foods store.

The further we can get away from a monopoly, the better. Any reduction in the amount of national grocery stores is a concern. Having the two largest grocery store chains in the country merge is just asking for trouble, especially considering Kroger tends to inflate prices, and has inferior produce.

Albertson's exited the Middle Tennessee market many years ago.  They have largely been supplanted by Publix.  I find Publix to be a far superb shopping experience to Kroger.  Publix workers are consistently stocking the shelves and rearranging as well.  I don't remember much about Albertson's but they seemed to be nicer stores at the time then Kroger.

Quote from: Hobart on January 15, 2024, 08:36:41 PM
especially considering Kroger ... and has inferior produce.

For what it's worth, my wife and I buy almost all of our fresh produce at Dillon's/Kroger.  Their pears and avocados never seem to be anywhere near ripe but, other than that, we've hardly had any issues at all.

Bananas at Kroger have been getting worse and worse.

Quote from: bandit957 on January 16, 2024, 10:03:55 AM
Bananas at Kroger have been getting worse and worse.

They tend to do that, and not just ones at Kroger.  But once they turn black, you can either freeze them and use them later in banana bread, or else you can blend them up with milk and ice cream for a cool treat.

Quote from: bandit957 on January 16, 2024, 10:03:55 AM
Bananas at Kroger have been getting worse and worse.

Now that's just bananas.

Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 16, 2024, 02:09:53 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on January 16, 2024, 10:03:55 AM
Bananas at Kroger have been getting worse and worse.

Now that's just bananas.

That doesn't bode well for the merger, since the Albertsons & co. produce isn't all that great, either. 

sour grapes?

Quote from: JoePCool14 on January 16, 2024, 02:09:53 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on January 16, 2024, 10:03:55 AM
Bananas at Kroger have been getting worse and worse.

Now that's just bananas.

I wonder if the blocking of Spirit Jet Blue is a sign of what will happen to Albertsons Kroger.

SM-G996U

I'd love if this boomeranged into breaking up these megachains up into smaller chains. We need more options and variety.

Quote from: ibthebigd on January 17, 2024, 01:32:08 AM
I wonder if the blocking of Spirit Jet Blue is a sign of what will happen to Albertsons Kroger.

SM-G996U

Could very likely start a trend. If the Kroger people (and Alaska Airlines, for that matter) think holding out for another Trump-led Federal Trade Commission can help them overcome the likes of the WA State Attorney General, they may want to think again. Some lessons were learned from the ATT-Time Warner merger (which Trump's FTC tried to block in court), and its eventual unraveling 2-3 years afterward that suggest 1990s and 2000s era merger mania won't be back for at least a generation.

FTC and more states filed a lawsuit to try to block the merger: https://www.npr.org/2024/02/26/1232948796/ftc-lawsuit-krogers-albertsons-grocery-merge

Good. If anything we need to start a trend where the government forces larger companies to break up. I'm not usually one for government inference but when it comes to preventing monopolies I am for it.

Yeah, this seems like a no-brainer. They keep using Walmart as the boogeyman to drive this merger but it's not going to be good for the typical American consumer, anywhere in the country. If Walmart got too big the correct answer is to break it up, not to make another kaiju grocery chain to battle it. Otherwise we'd wind up like Australia where grocery marketshare ends up carved up between the Big Two (Woolworths and Coles and their sub-brands) and a bunch of little also-rans (IGA, Aldi, other independent grocers), and prices there have risen and value has diminished as a result.

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on February 26, 2024, 03:46:18 PM
... it's not going to be good for the typical American consumer, anywhere in the country.

I'm a typical American consumer, somewhere in the country.  How will this be bad for me?

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on February 26, 2024, 03:46:18 PM
If Walmart got too big the correct answer is to break it up, not to make another kaiju grocery chain to battle it.

:-D :-D

This is one of the funniest analogies I've heard in a while. I completely agree with you, to be clear.

Quote from: kphoger on February 26, 2024, 04:21:15 PM

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on February 26, 2024, 03:46:18 PM
... it's not going to be good for the typical American consumer, anywhere in the country.

I'm a typical American consumer, somewhere in the country.  How will this be bad for me?

Odds are for many, even most people that they've just reduced the number of grocery companies serving their local area to one (regardless of what the marquee out front says). You'll have the regional chains still around but this makes it much easier to outlast them with loss leaders and the like. I'm not sure how one could regard this as a neutral development, let alone a positive one.

Divestment isn't going to solve that problem sufficiently either. We all know what happened to Haggen.

Having been to an Albertsons for the first time in years recently, I'm not entirely sure that this would be an altogether bad thing. Albertsons is a ripoff, and I'm not really sure that Kroger could make it worse.

But...

Quote from: kphoger on February 26, 2024, 04:21:15 PM

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on February 26, 2024, 03:46:18 PM
... it's not going to be good for the typical American consumer, anywhere in the country.

I'm a typical American consumer, somewhere in the country.  How will this be bad for me?

Isn't the line the capitalists feed us is that the reason why the private sector is so great is because the consumer gets better outcomes because different businesses compete for their business? And that competition thus incentivizes innovation and increased efficiency, in order to compete more effectively?

- If you believe that, then wouldn't a lack of competition result in worse outcomes for the consumer because there's no incentive to improve?
- If you don't believe that, why shouldn't the resulting monopoly be controlled by the state, to ensure that the consumer has a voice in how it's run?

Safeway used to have very reasonable prices for a non-discount supermarket. And then the Albertsons merger happened and both stores jacked up prices while also closing their "low performers" that happened to be in areas with certain demographics...a repeat with Kroger in the mix would be absolutely devastating.

The purpose of a merger is NOT to make things better for the customers.  Or the employees, or the suppliers.  It's to make things worse for everyone except the corporate stockholders and maybe some of the senior executives.

Quote from: Bruce on February 26, 2024, 10:47:29 PM
Safeway used to have very reasonable prices for a non-discount supermarket. And then the Albertsons merger happened and both stores jacked up prices while also closing their "low performers" that happened to be in areas with certain demographics...a repeat with Kroger in the mix would be absolutely devastating.

I'm personally just aware of the closings related to Haggen locations (such as the Albertsons at So. 38th and Pacific Ave (WA-7)), could you expand a bit on which locations closed in "certain demographic" areas?

When I lived in Tacoma, the closest Safeways were the two on So. M St (one at So. 38th, another at Earnest S Brazill St). From my personal experience attending UW-Tacoma, and living in the area for several years, I can attest to the high crime rate in these neighborhoods. Yet, neither ever closed.

There was a Safeway at 6th Ave, near WA-16, that closed in 2020. But there is nothing demographically interesting about that location, and it has since become a Winco Foods (perhaps a gain for the neighborhood in some respects).

Quote from: kphoger on February 26, 2024, 04:21:15 PM

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on February 26, 2024, 03:46:18 PM
... it's not going to be good for the typical American consumer, anywhere in the country.

I'm a typical American consumer, somewhere in the country.  How will this be bad for me?

Not much that I can see.  Even in small towns here, they still would have to compete with Walmart, Hy-Vee, and a lot of independents.  The area the merger would affect most in Illinois is Chicago where you have the Albertson's-owned Jewel-Osco and the Kroger-owned Mariano's and Food4Less overlapping.  The deal has one of those being sold off to a third party.  But, then again, there's plenty of competition: Walmart, Meijer, Target, Tony's Fresh Market, Angelo Caputo's, Fresh Thyme, Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, Aldi, Pete's Fresh Market, among others.  Out of these, Aldi has been more aggressively expanding into rural areas as of late.

Fill in the blank:

The fact that one of the competing grocery stores in my town is or is not the same company as one of the competing grocery stores in a city 7 states away where I will never be and will never shop effects me because ______________________________ .

Quote from: SP Cook on February 27, 2024, 08:18:29 AM
Fill in the blank:

The fact that one of the competing grocery stores in my town is or is not the same company as one of the competing grocery stores in a city 7 states away where I will never be and will never shop effects me because ______________________________ .

How it effects someone is an interesting, existential question indeed.

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on February 26, 2024, 03:46:18 PM
... it's not going to be good for the typical American consumer, anywhere in the country.

Quote from: kphoger on February 26, 2024, 04:21:15 PM
I'm a typical American consumer, somewhere in the country.  How will this be bad for me?

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on February 26, 2024, 10:36:05 PM
Odds are for many, even most people that they've just reduced the number of grocery companies serving their local area to one (regardless of what the marquee out front says). You'll have the regional chains still around but this makes it much easier to outlast them with loss leaders and the like. I'm not sure how one could regard this as a neutral development, let alone a positive one.

I'm not many people.  I'm not most people.  I am Kyle, and I am a typical American consumer in Wichita.

You said this wouldn't be good for the typical American consumer anywhere in the country.  Please explain how it will be bad for me.

If you're concerned about the overlap between stores, here's a map their locations.

(https://www.digitaljournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/DDD-4-1200x538.jpg)

From the map, the biggest overlaps are in Chicago, the Front Range, some in the Pacific Northwest, and Los Angeles.  Wichita, for example, only has Kroger, but no Albertsons stores, therefore, it won't affect kphoger at all.  Rothman and SP Cook would also see no real change.  I, kkt, and Bruce would see store changes and sell-offs.

So it sounds like this could cause Harris Teeter to disappear in Maryland and NoVA...

In Massachusetts, we have Albertsons-related stories (Shaw/Star), but no Kroger-owned stores that I know of. So the merger wouldn't have that much of an impact. I imagine that the merged company would have to sell a lot of stores in places where they do overlap as a condition of merging. At least they should.

Quote from: kphoger on February 27, 2024, 01:30:48 PM
I'm not many people.  I'm not most people.  I am Kyle, and I am a typical American consumer in Wichita.

You said this wouldn't be good for the typical American consumer anywhere in the country.  Please explain how it will be bad for me.

Wouldn't we need your entire grocery list and bank account balances to do that?

Quote from: SP Cook on February 27, 2024, 08:18:29 AM
Fill in the blank:

The fact that one of the competing grocery stores in my town is or is not the same company as one of the competing grocery stores in a city 7 states away where I will never be and will never shop effects me because ______________________________ .

...to be a good person requires that I care about people besides myself.

Shaw's has a union. Would this change? I seem to remember that Kroger also has one, but I'm not sure.

Quote from: 1 on February 27, 2024, 06:46:26 PM
Shaw's has a union. Would this change? I seem to remember that Kroger also has one, but I'm not sure.

In the Northwest, all Kroger (Fred Meyer/QFC) and Albertsons (Albertsons/Safeway) are union. The national UFCW opposes the merger but the Local 555 in Oregon/SW Washington endorsed it for some odd reason.

Quote from: 1 on February 27, 2024, 06:46:26 PM
Shaw's has a union. Would this change? I seem to remember that Kroger also has one, but I'm not sure.

Depends on where you are as to if they are union or not.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 27, 2024, 06:41:06 PM

Quote from: kphoger on February 27, 2024, 01:30:48 PM
I'm not many people.  I'm not most people.  I am Kyle, and I am a typical American consumer in Wichita.

You said this wouldn't be good for the typical American consumer anywhere in the country.  Please explain how it will be bad for me.

Wouldn't we need your entire grocery list and bank account balances to do that?

Apparently, |ClassicHasClass| doesn't think so.  He already knows it won't be good for me.

But also, how would that help you determine the answer?  We shop at Aldi and the local Kroger variant.  Would Kroger's acquisition of Albertsons negatively affect the price of the items sold here?

Quote from: kphoger on February 27, 2024, 01:30:48 PM

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on February 26, 2024, 03:46:18 PM
... it's not going to be good for the typical American consumer, anywhere in the country.

Quote from: kphoger on February 26, 2024, 04:21:15 PM
I'm a typical American consumer, somewhere in the country.  How will this be bad for me?

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on February 26, 2024, 10:36:05 PM
Odds are for many, even most people that they've just reduced the number of grocery companies serving their local area to one (regardless of what the marquee out front says). You'll have the regional chains still around but this makes it much easier to outlast them with loss leaders and the like. I'm not sure how one could regard this as a neutral development, let alone a positive one.

I'm not many people.  I'm not most people.  I am Kyle, and I am a typical American consumer in Wichita.

You said this wouldn't be good for the typical American consumer anywhere in the country.  Please explain how it will be bad for me.

I did. You disagree that it will be bad, obviously, so I hope it works out for you. I don't think it will and I stand by that.

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on February 28, 2024, 10:55:34 AM

Quote from: kphoger on February 27, 2024, 01:30:48 PM
Please explain how it will be bad for me.

I did. You disagree that it will be bad, obviously, so I hope it works out for you. I don't think it will and I stand by that.

1.  I'm still trying to figure out where you explained how this will be bad for me and my wife here in Wichita.  Can you please point me to the post where you explained it?

2.  I neither agree nor disagree with you.  What I want is an explanation of how it will be bad for me.  If you can convince me, then I'll be convinced.  I honestly want to know.

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on February 28, 2024, 10:55:34 AM

Quote from: kphoger on February 27, 2024, 01:30:48 PM

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on February 26, 2024, 03:46:18 PM
... it's not going to be good for the typical American consumer, anywhere in the country.

Quote from: kphoger on February 26, 2024, 04:21:15 PM
I'm a typical American consumer, somewhere in the country.  How will this be bad for me?

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on February 26, 2024, 10:36:05 PM
Odds are for many, even most people that they've just reduced the number of grocery companies serving their local area to one (regardless of what the marquee out front says). You'll have the regional chains still around but this makes it much easier to outlast them with loss leaders and the like. I'm not sure how one could regard this as a neutral development, let alone a positive one.

I'm not many people.  I'm not most people.  I am Kyle, and I am a typical American consumer in Wichita.

You said this wouldn't be good for the typical American consumer anywhere in the country.  Please explain how it will be bad for me.

I did. You disagree that it will be bad, obviously, so I hope it works out for you. I don't think it will and I stand by that.

How would it be bad for kphoger?  Check the map I posted yesterday; there's no Albertsons stores anywhere near him.  Thus, he'd see no stores being sold off or changing hands.  As for me, I'm a bit concerned as we have both Jewel (Albertsons) and Mariano's (Kroger) in the market  I highly doubt there'd be any price increases as there is plenty of other competition in the area.  My concern is about losing what's become a really decent store, Mariano's, after the demise of Dominick's at the hands of Safeway.

Quote from: Brandon on February 28, 2024, 11:32:00 AM
How would it be bad for kphoger?  Check the map I posted yesterday; there's no Albertsons stores anywhere near him.  Thus, he'd see no stores being sold off or changing hands.  As for me, I'm a bit concerned as we have both Jewel (Albertsons) and Mariano's (Kroger) in the market  I highly doubt there'd be any price increases as there is plenty of other competition in the area.  My concern is about losing what's become a really decent store, Mariano's, after the demise of Dominick's at the hands of Safeway.

FWIW, I have no experience with Mariano's in the Chicago area, because I left the area before the demise of Dominick's.  When I did live there, I did all my shopping at Jewel.

Quote from: kphoger on February 28, 2024, 11:57:01 AM

Quote from: Brandon on February 28, 2024, 11:32:00 AM
How would it be bad for kphoger?  Check the map I posted yesterday; there's no Albertsons stores anywhere near him.  Thus, he'd see no stores being sold off or changing hands.  As for me, I'm a bit concerned as we have both Jewel (Albertsons) and Mariano's (Kroger) in the market  I highly doubt there'd be any price increases as there is plenty of other competition in the area.  My concern is about losing what's become a really decent store, Mariano's, after the demise of Dominick's at the hands of Safeway.

FWIW, I have no experience with Mariano's in the Chicago area, because I left the area before the demise of Dominick's.  When I did live there, I did all my shopping at Jewel.

Mariano's was originally founded by one of the guys (Bob Mariano) who headed Dominick's just before it was sold to Safeway.  Mariano was working for Roundy's at the time and fashioned his store after what he though Dominick's should be, better produce selections, some high-end products, while also still being competitive with Jewel.  They became a part of Kroger when Roundy's was bought out by Kroger.