No more I-375? Detroit to study removing freeway in favor of walkable surface street
http://www.freep.com/article/20131124/BUSINESS06/311240072/I-375-downtown-MDOT
"The City of Detroit and the Michigan Department of Transportation have formed a committee with local stakeholders, including development agencies and downtown employers, to study transforming I-375 into a surface street."
"With the 50-year-old freeway and the bridges that cross it probably needing upgrades or repairs sooner or later, fans of walkable downtowns say removing expressways are a big plus."
Changed title so that replies show that replacing I-375 with an at-grade boulevard moved forward
- Alex
Did Nordquist become mayor there at some point? :eyebrow: :happy:
MDOT's been looking at this since April (Crain's Detroit Business published an article on it back then), but now they're advancing the study to include various businesses in the area, like GM, and other groups on both sides of the issue.
I saw some discussions about it on DetroitYes and City-Data
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?17457-Should-we-get-rid-of-I-375/page3
http://www.city-data.com/forum/detroit/1998678-possible-removal-i-375-a.html
One guy on City-Data DTWFlyer suggested the following:
Quote
No one project will be the panacea for Detroit.
Again, MDOT is exploring all options for what to do with I-375. Doing nothing is not an option, as in the very near future MDOT will be forced to either reconstruct, tear-down, or close many of the bridges over I-375 since they are becoming structurally defecent.
Options include:
1) Reconstruct as-is
2) Reconfigure / redesign into a blvd
Traffic flows, cost, and future development all factor into this analysis.
If it is cheaper to turn I-375 into a surface road, and it has a neglible impact on traffic flow to/from/around the downtown area, and it opens up additional areas for future development, and better connects neighborhoods east of I-375 to the downtown core, then it sounds like a win-win proposal.
Personally, I would like if they did the following:
- Reconfigure the I-75/I-375 interchange to allow for better through traffic on I-75 and eliminate some of the loop-ramps
- Eliminate the unnecessary loop ramps from WB Gratiot extension to SB I-375
- Transition I-375 from a highway to a surface street to an at-grade intersection at Gratiot (if possible) or by Lafayette.
- T-intersection with Jefferson, elimating the massive fotress-like width of Jefferson just east of the Ren-Cen
DTWFlyer got a interesting point about the I-75/I-375 interchange and we mentionned that interchange in another thread. ;) https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3618.msg113463;topicseen#msg113463
Because those abandoned buildings on the east side of I-375 generate so much foot traffic...
GT-N8013
Might draw this one out at some point...
I would approve of the I-375 relinquishment and conversion to surface boulevard only if they agree to concessions for the northward completion of the I-275 route (north of I-696) to I-75 north of Detroit. This route is needed but cuts through some very affluent areas. If the Detrioters want a walkable downtown then they can make some concessions. I would even support conversion the south segment of M-10 freeway in downtown Detroit to a surface boulevard as well if they agree to the concessions. This project could also be paid for by a north of 8 Mile property tax surcharge of 1%. Ok its a pipe dream. But also conversion of the freeway to surface boulevard is a very costly project for a city that is bankrupt and a state DOT that is financially strapped.
I don't see this changing anything.
I believe that M-DOT should pick the cheapest possible option here. Boulevard conversion won't convert this neighbrhood into a desirable location, but if it's cheaper than a complete rebuild and it would be unsafe to just leave it alone, then by all means convert it to a boulevard.
Perhaps the biggest irony in Detroit development now is the possibility that we may see I-375 removed for a surface street, restoring a neighborhood feel to downtown Detroit's east side, even as road builders widen I-94, bulldozing more lanes of asphalt through the heart of the city's rapidly developing Midtown district.
Removal of I-375 could come as I-94 is widened
http://www.freep.com/article/20131201/BUSINESS06/312010066/I-375-I-94-MDOT-freeways-Detroit
If they could do an Embarcadero-style rebuild there, then I'd be all for it. (Of course, the only difference is that I-375 was never a double-decker freeway like I-/CA 480 was.)
Named for the rich dark soil that French explorers first found there, the Black Bottom district in the 1940s and '50s housed the city's African-American entrepreneurial class, with dozens of thriving black-owned businesses and the Paradise Valley entertainment zone, where Duke Ellington, Ella Fitzgerald and Count Basie performed.
But the builders of I-75 and I-375 plowed multilane highways right through Hastings Street, the commercial heart of Black Bottom, and projects such as Lafayette Park and the public housing projects to the north destroyed the rest in the name of progress.
When Detroit paved over paradise: The story of I-375
http://www.freep.com/article/20131215/OPINION05/312150060/Black-Bottom-Detroit-I-375-I-75-paradise-valley-removal
It is a masterpiece of urban design and planning, providing rapid access to downtown. And it was designed to provide relief from urban traffic noise pollution for the residences. Detroit's most effective architect-planner, Charles Blessing, who created the Medical Center (now Midtown), knew exactly what he was creating, and the solution is brilliant. Few cities provide such rapid access with ease to its core. The current design is crucial for the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel.
Lewis (Bill) M. Dickens: Removing I-375 an urban planning accident waiting to happen
http://www.freep.com/article/20131215/OPINION05/312150052/
More commentary:
It is an article of faith among much of the urban living crowd that the construction of I-75 was one of the biggest culprits to the city's population decline. People would have stayed in the city, the thinking goes, if only you hadn't made it so easy for them to live in the suburbs and work in the city. What these folks really want, although they never put it like this, is for the city to basically force people to stay by denying them the infrastructure that allows them to live elsewhere.
If I-375 goes away, we need a better reason than 'hot trends'
http://blogs.detroitnews.com/politics/2013/11/24/375-goes-away-need-better-reason-hot-trends/
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 16, 2013, 12:13:55 AM
More commentary:
It is an article of faith among much of the urban living crowd that the construction of I-75 was one of the biggest culprits to the city's population decline. People would have stayed in the city, the thinking goes, if only you hadn't made it so easy for them to live in the suburbs and work in the city. What these folks really want, although they never put it like this, is for the city to basically force people to stay by denying them the infrastructure that allows them to live elsewhere.
If I-375 goes away, we need a better reason than 'hot trends'
http://blogs.detroitnews.com/politics/2013/11/24/375-goes-away-need-better-reason-hot-trends/
great article, I feel these "urbanists" facts are all suspect at best. If people don't feel safe, they won't come, that's (one of many reasons) why Detroit is struggling.
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 16, 2013, 08:33:06 PM
If people don't feel safe, they won't come, that's (one of many reasons) why Detroit is struggling.
Get rid of the hep cats and whites will flock to Detroit!
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 16, 2013, 08:33:06 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 16, 2013, 12:13:55 AM
More commentary:
It is an article of faith among much of the urban living crowd that the construction of I-75 was one of the biggest culprits to the city's population decline. People would have stayed in the city, the thinking goes, if only you hadn't made it so easy for them to live in the suburbs and work in the city. What these folks really want, although they never put it like this, is for the city to basically force people to stay by denying them the infrastructure that allows them to live elsewhere.
If I-375 goes away, we need a better reason than 'hot trends'
http://blogs.detroitnews.com/politics/2013/11/24/375-goes-away-need-better-reason-hot-trends/
great article, I feel these "urbanists" facts are all suspect at best. If people don't feel safe, they won't come, that's (one of many reasons) why Detroit is struggling.
Plus, the freeway building really got going after the exodus has already begun. It's a myth that the freeways caused the flight. Yes, they helped facilitate it, but they only aided what had already begun.
A few comments (and better reasons than "hot trends"):
Per MDOT 2012 traffic counts (http://mdotcf.state.mi.us/public/maps_adtmaparchive/pdf/2012adt/Downtown_Detroit.pdf), the part of I-375 closest to I-75 has 76K vehicles a day, a number that quickly drops to under 18K at the curve under Jefferson Ave. 18K is well within the traffic level that can be supported by an at-grade boulevard. Even if redevelopment occurs and supports an increase in traffic volumes, those increased volumes can easily be handled by a 6-lane boulevard. An at-grade boulevard would also be less costly to build and maintain than rebuilding the existing freeway....bridges are expensive, and rebuilding I-375 "in kind" involves 5 of them that would not be needed with a boulevard.
The argument in that Bill Dickens opinion piece that I-375 is "crucial" for the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel is a red-herring. The tunnel being only 2 lanes plus the low volumes (mentioned above) on the Congress St/Jefferson Ave end of I-375 prove that (nevermind the "Michigan Left" that I-375 traffic has to use just to get to the tunnel). You don't need a freeway for that low of a traffic volume. The tunnel is a critical link, but not critical enough to warrant a freeway on the Detroit end. Furthermore, cross-border capacity will be well-handled by the planned bridge further south that will also have the advantage of a direct freeway connection between ON 401 and I-75. If anything, the new bridge will pull traffic off of the tunnel, further reducing demand on tunnel connections downtown.
In short, the bottom 5-6 blocks of I-375 are not needed.
What I'd do (and what I'll probably draw out in GIS for one of my future maps):
- Redesign the I-75/I-375/Fisher Fwy interchange so that I-75 is the through movement at the interchange. The two ramps between I-375 and Fisher Fwy East can probably be removed.
- Revise access between I-75 to/from the north and the ballfields and downtown. Still formulating how I'd do this, but I'd probably replace the direct ramps to Madison St with direct ramps to Gratiot Ave, and add a set of ramps to/from Brush St.
- Keep the Gratiot Ave overpass over I-375, but replace I-375 with a 6-lane boulevard starting at about Macomb St. I'd give the boulevard the name of "Chrysler Dr South" and "Crysler Dr North" (depending on direction of travel).
- Reconstruct Jefferson Ave as a 6-lane boulevard between Beaubien St and Chrysler Dr North.
This idea would right-size the road infrastructure to the traffic volumes in the area and also reduce road maintenance costs. That it would also open up the equivalent of about 7.5 city blocks for redevelopment and tax base generation (something Detroit sorely needs) is a nice byproduct.
Quote from: Brandon on December 17, 2013, 06:30:05 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 16, 2013, 08:33:06 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 16, 2013, 12:13:55 AM
More commentary:
It is an article of faith among much of the urban living crowd that the construction of I-75 was one of the biggest culprits to the city's population decline. People would have stayed in the city, the thinking goes, if only you hadn't made it so easy for them to live in the suburbs and work in the city. What these folks really want, although they never put it like this, is for the city to basically force people to stay by denying them the infrastructure that allows them to live elsewhere.
If I-375 goes away, we need a better reason than 'hot trends'
http://blogs.detroitnews.com/politics/2013/11/24/375-goes-away-need-better-reason-hot-trends/
great article, I feel these "urbanists" facts are all suspect at best. If people don't feel safe, they won't come, that's (one of many reasons) why Detroit is struggling.
Plus, the freeway building really got going after the exodus has already begun. It's a myth that the freeways caused the flight. Yes, they helped facilitate it, but they only aided what had already begun.
Even worse, the areas around where the freeways were built became poor, rundown slums filled with Blacks and, in places like NYC and LA, Hispanics.
Quote from: froggie on December 17, 2013, 10:58:52 AM
That it would also open up the equivalent of about 7.5 city blocks for redevelopment and tax base generation (something Detroit sorely needs) is a nice byproduct.
No, more empty land is not something Detroit needs. There is plenty of open land for development as it is. If you go just a few blocks over, you're in urban prairie.
Quote from: Henry on December 17, 2013, 03:13:46 PM
Even worse, the areas around where the freeways were built became poor, rundown slums filled with Blacks and, in places like NYC and LA, Hispanics.
Black Bottom was already poor and Black (coincidentally with the name - it was named for the soil) before the Chrysler Freeway was built. It was filled with slums by the time the freeway was built.
I spent four days last week in Detroit, and I stayed at the Ren Cen Marriott. I worked in Midtown so I took I-375 to and from work each day. I left for work at dawn, and got back after dusk so I liked having the safety of a close and convenient freeway to use rather than a surface street.
I also think the idea of downgrading freeways is not good in most cases. Once a highway is downgraded, there would be no way to get it back even if problems arise.
The "if only those folks would just die or move out, we could have our development" argument is really creeping me out....but I still am against destroying perfectly good freeways merely for "development". Contrary to the New Urbanist arguments, elevated freeways *CAN* be built with development and asthetics in mind...and there has to be a balance between neighborhood needs and traffic flow. Livable wage jobs backed by sustainable local development is what will save these neighborhoods, not merely tearing down freeways just to build more Starbucks cafes near mixed-use boulevards.
The 75/375 interchange could stand to be rebuilt so through traffic for I-75 is more favored, rather than the semi-TOTSO situation that currently exists.
I do agree with the assessment, though, that removal of 375 itself is mindless fad following. 50 years ago we ripped up a lot of railroads. Today planners kinda regret having done this. Today there is a push to tear down freeways. 50 years from now, what will we think of that?
Philosophically, I think we need to be building infrastructure, not destroying it. If the freeway needs a rehab, then just rehab it. Surely that's less expensive than demolishing it and building a whole new facility in its place?
As for this argument that "a surface boulevard can handle the traffic, therefore we don't need a freeway"... this is wrong because it assumes the only point of freeways is capacity. A very key benefit of a freeway in an urban area is speed, and a surface street with traffic signals is woefully inferior in that regard, for people using all surface modes of transportation. Whenever I drive down the West Side Highway in Manhattan, I grumble every time I hit a red light, thinking "if this road were still grade separated, I could just keep driving". And whenever I cross the West Side Highway in Manhattan as a pedestrian, I grumble when I walk up to the corner and have to wait for the light to change, thinking "if this road were still grade separated, I could just keep walking". The same goes for cyclists, trucks, and buses. The lack of grade separation slows everyone down. So why in the hell do people prefer it that way? Because it looks prettier? Let me tell you something: if you value aesthetics over function, your priorities are way out of order.
This doesn't even consider the safety benefits of having a freeway. T-bone crashes and pedestrians getting run over don't happen at grade separations, they happen at at grade intersections!
^^ However, that said regarding speed in an urban area, one of MDOT's specialties is being able to make surface boulevards work well. Cases in point in the area include Eight Mile Rd (M-102), Telegraph Rd (US-24), Michigan Av (US-12), Woodward Av (M-1), parts of Grand River Av (M-5). MDOT does know how to time signals for a set speed very well. One can cruise down Telegraph for miles at 45 mph without hitting a single red signal.
Anthony, do you not agree that freeways are expensive? That overpasses and underpasses are expensive? That the recurring maintenance needs of freeways are a lot more than they are for a surface arterial? There's a point where the cost-benefit ratio of a freeway, especially one that serves as a low-volume spur and not as a through route (i.e. in this case) just doesn't cut it anymore.
In this case, a surface boulevard is about rationalizing the infrastructure to fit the demand. Also note that, in my own proposal mentioned above, I'm not tearing down the entire spur...just the southern part.
Quote from: froggie on December 19, 2013, 08:37:33 AM
Anthony, do you not agree that freeways are expensive? That overpasses and underpasses are expensive? That the recurring maintenance needs of freeways are a lot more than they are for a surface arterial? There's a point where the cost-benefit ratio of a freeway, especially one that serves as a low-volume spur and not as a through route (i.e. in this case) just doesn't cut it anymore.
In this case, a surface boulevard is about rationalizing the infrastructure to fit the demand. Also note that, in my own proposal mentioned above, I'm not tearing down the entire spur...just the southern part.
So when can we see a mock-up of your proposal? (similar to what we've seen for Birmingham and New Orleans)
This probably goes without saying, but this proposal would mean the death of I-375. It was already one of our shortest 3di's, so trimming back the freeway portion would make it unworthy of the red-white-and-blue shield.
Feel free to use my concept as a jumping off point to fix the interchange with I-75, MDOT! ;)
QuoteSo when can we see a mock-up of your proposal? (similar to what we've seen for Birmingham and New Orleans)
It's on my to-do list.
I've finally completed my rendition, as I described in an earlier post (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=10963.msg265520#msg265520) last month:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.staticflickr.com%2F3817%2F12004971236_e916339e90_c_d.jpg&hash=4ade92e272882fb95d24e3b21fd2d32b1431b0da) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ajfroggie/12004971236/)
Seems like you could completely eliminate the spur northeast to M-3 by adding a few simple ramps where M-3 crosses I-375. I don't know how much traffic goes that way.
PS: holy crap. There are so many surface parking lots west of "Comerica" Park.
Froggie, not bad, but the city really doesn't need more empty land at this point.
Quote from: Brandon on January 17, 2014, 09:19:21 PM
Froggie, not bad, but the city really doesn't need more empty land at this point.
I totally agree. There are plenty of abandoned buildings and a lot of empty land there, but more importantly, as a person who spent several days staying in a downtown Detroit hotel, having the safe exit right to a freeway is one of the only things that made me feel secure.
I am not sure why the idea of eliminating freeways is striking a chord with so many people. For better or for worse, in the US, we rely on automobile transportation so unless a city has a comprehensive, safe, affordable, and dependable mass transit system with capacity to carry more passengers, such an idea will only cause problems. As far as I could see in Detroit, they had two bus companies serving downtown. At first glance, it did not look like they had service and ridership like in Chicago or New York.
For this idea to work, the entire system needs to be studied - you can't just make a freeway into a surface street.
Believe it or not, there are people who would like to get rid of cars. They think that by removing freeways they'll get people to carpool, walk, and take the bus. Many of these people view cars is irredeemable environmental disasters. Others just wonder why people wouldn't want to re-create their college campus experience by living in a big city. And then there's the people who blame freeways for everything that has gone wrong in America since the 50s, or who view tearing down the freeways as a way of redemption from the old policies of building freeways through slums.
Freeways are a symptom of a deeper cause.
QuoteI am not sure why the idea of eliminating freeways is striking a chord with so many people.
The damage that freeways have done to cities is pretty well documented. It's no surprise to me that it's striking a chord. Sure, not every freeway needs to be dropped, but there are a few here and there that have outlived their usefulness and would be more beneficial removed than retained.
QuoteFor this idea to work, the entire system needs to be studied - you can't just make a freeway into a surface street.
You can if the freeway in question is a stub and has traffic volumes low enough to where they can be adequately handled by a surface street. Which is largely what I've done here. Nevermind that surface streets are cheaper to (re)build and have lower maintenance costs than freeways.
QuoteBelieve it or not, there are people who would like to get rid of cars.
There are these people, yes. But these people are still very much the exception rather than the norm. Very few of the urban activists I know (mostly DC and Minneapolis, but a few in NYC) advocate for getting rid of cars wholesale, as you imply.
Quote from: froggie on January 17, 2014, 08:43:35 PM
I've finally completed my rendition, as I described in an earlier post (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=10963.msg265520#msg265520) last month:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.staticflickr.com%2F3817%2F12004971236_e916339e90_c_d.jpg&hash=4ade92e272882fb95d24e3b21fd2d32b1431b0da) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ajfroggie/12004971236/)
I like your idea, but I would personally get rid of access to M-3 where 75 turns north. Provide full access to the spur, and keep the exit at m-3 and 375 that you propose. (so only one entrance to m-3 as opposed to 2)
Quote from: mukade on January 18, 2014, 09:53:19 AM
For this idea to work, the entire system needs to be studied - you can't just make a freeway into a surface street.
Much agreed. The only way this would work is by turning the tail end of the Chrysler Freeway (I-375) into a Michigan boulevard with Michigan Lefts and still having it turn into Jefferson at the end, as it does currently. Froggie's 90 degree turns there will never make it for traffic to/from the Tunnel, much less the RenCen (HQ of GM).
QuoteFroggie's 90 degree turns there will never make it for traffic to/from the Tunnel, much less the RenCen (HQ of GM).
I looked up the traffic counts. My design will easily work.
What if there was a large (possibly signalized) roundabout where I-375 turns toward downtown Detroit at Jefferson Ave?
Quote from: PColumbus73 on January 18, 2014, 10:27:37 PM
What if there was a large (possibly signalized) roundabout where I-375 turns toward downtown Detroit at Jefferson Ave?
roundabout would possibly work, they could even put a monument in the center, I don't think there are signalized roundabouts in the US, are there?
Quote from: froggie on January 18, 2014, 05:56:17 PM
There are these people, yes. But these people are still very much the exception rather than the norm. Very few of the urban activists I know (mostly DC and Minneapolis, but a few in NYC) advocate for getting rid of cars wholesale, as you imply.
Well, I was technically looking at ideals rather than practical goals.
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 18, 2014, 10:45:03 PM
roundabout would possibly work, they could even put a monument in the center, I don't think there are signalized roundabouts in the US, are there?
Detroit's Campus Martius intersection is somewhat of a bastardized signalized roundabout.
Quote from: NE2 on December 16, 2013, 08:46:20 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 16, 2013, 08:33:06 PM
If people don't feel safe, they won't come, that's (one of many reasons) why Detroit is struggling.
Get rid of the hep cats and whites will flock to Detroit!
The hep cats are not the problem. It's the immigrants.
Quote from: renegade on January 19, 2014, 08:07:35 PM
Quote from: NE2 on December 16, 2013, 08:46:20 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 16, 2013, 08:33:06 PM
If people don't feel safe, they won't come, that's (one of many reasons) why Detroit is struggling.
Get rid of the hep cats and whites will flock to Detroit!
The hep cats are not the problem. It's the immigrants.
Get rid of one group of immigrants and another will take their place?
Quote
The hep cats are not the problem. It's the immigrants.
Get rid of one group of immigrants and another will take their place?
Anyone who has ever been to Metro Detroit (dearborn *cough*) knows exactly what the problem really is. After all, this is not Alanland we are talking about here.
Oh, sand hep cats. Got it.
Quote from: froggie on January 18, 2014, 05:56:17 PM
QuoteI am not sure why the idea of eliminating freeways is striking a chord with so many people.
The damage that freeways have done to cities is pretty well documented. It's no surprise to me that it's striking a chord. Sure, not every freeway needs to be dropped, but there are a few here and there that have outlived their usefulness and would be more beneficial removed than retained.
I think there are plenty of other actions and policies that contributed much more to the decline of American cities. Freeways exist in almost every major city in the developed world, and the cities outside the US have not declined like Detroit (I haven't heard of any, at least). So if we had adopted a rail culture instead of building freeways, wouldn't the wide corridors carrying the railroads have done the same thing with respect to dividing neighborhoods? How about busy wide boulevards?
I guess there are two points I would make. I-375 would probably not be the best highway to downgrade even if you assume downgrading is a good policy because of the crime problem in Detroit. The second point is that I would like to see good evidence that downgrading provides benefits in all but very unusual situations. I would think these actions would come with a bunch of unintended consequences on other highways that pick up the volume for the lost capacity - not to mention the cost.
Yeah, the decline of inner rust belt cities is the result of social problems, not freeway construction. Freeway construction may have provided a conduit for people to leave the city, but it didn't create the reasons why people left.
From the Detroit Free Press:
Public meetings set on I-375 future (http://www.freep.com/article/20140203/BUSINESS06/302030067/I-375-MDOT-Detroit-downtown)
QuoteThe first of three public meetings to discuss the future of the I-375 expressway into downtown Detroit has been scheduled for Feb. 13.
The community information and comment session will be held from 5:30 to 7:30 p.m. at Stroh River Place South Atrium, 300 River Place Drive in Detroit.
The City of Detroit and the Michigan Department of Transportation are studying whether to rebuild the aging I-375 expressway or remake it in some new way, possibly as a surface street. Since 1964 the I-375 freeway has been one of the primary access points into Downtown Detroit. But downtown has changed dramatically since the one-mile freeway was built and officials want to study possible changes.
Six alternatives have been revealed (http://www.freep.com/article/20140608/BUSINESS06/306080083/I-375-downtown-riverfront) for the I-375 reconstruction. They range from rebuilding nearly as-is to gradually elevating the road to street-level. Somehow, I prefer the alternative in the poll (http://www.freep.com/article/20140608/BUSINESS06/140606001) which is listed as most expensive, but there should be something to connect the riverfront while keeping a free flow from Jefferson to I-375. There will be a public open house on Thursday at Eastern Market's Shed 5, and public comment is also being sought at http://www.i375detroit.com/ (the project's website).
Will the new I-375 Boulevard be signed as Route M-10? :hmmm:
And if it is, would the fact that it intersects Route M-3 twice be confusing? :confused:
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 18, 2014, 10:45:03 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on January 18, 2014, 10:27:37 PM
What if there was a large (possibly signalized) roundabout where I-375 turns toward downtown Detroit at Jefferson Ave?
roundabout would possibly work, they could even put a monument in the center, I don't think there are signalized roundabouts in the US, are there?
In Washington DC, many of the entrances and exits to Dupont circle are signalized. And I bet there are many other traffic circles like it. (Looking at Google Sat and GSV images, Scott, Thomas, and Logan Circles all also have at least one tragic signal)
Quote from: billtm on June 08, 2014, 03:43:31 PM
Will the new I-375 Boulevard be signed as Route M-10? :hmmm:
And if it is, would the fact that it intersects Route M-3 twice be confusing? :confused:
They haven't even chosen a preferred alternative yet. These are the six that are under consideration.
Resurrecting the zombie thread - MDOT has narrowed down its I-375 options to two that abolish it in favor of a surface boulevard.
MDOT moving ahead with plan to rip out I-375 freeway, restore surface street
https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/john-gallagher/2017/12/05/mdot-375-freeway/920875001/
MDOT I-375 study backs boulevard plans
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20171203/news/646641/mdot-i-375-study-backs-boulevard-plans
Nice!
i support the removal, it's a great idea
Me too!! It's a very useless freeway!! Let's tear this freeway into pieces!! :clap: :clap: Hey, at least they are going to fix the interchange with I-75!! So, it's a win-win situation for everyone!!
Call it M-375, and get it over with!
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 05, 2017, 07:41:46 PM
Resurrecting the zombie thread - MDOT has narrowed down its I-375 options to two that abolish it in favor of a surface boulevard.
MDOT moving ahead with plan to rip out I-375 freeway, restore surface street
https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/john-gallagher/2017/12/05/mdot-375-freeway/920875001/
MDOT I-375 study backs boulevard plans
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20171203/news/646641/mdot-i-375-study-backs-boulevard-plans
So they
are getting rid of I-375 no matter what? Heck Yeah!
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I like this part of the project more.
What waste of money! And get this crap: "expressways did incalculable damage to cities like Detroit, destroying viable neighborhoods and facilitating the flight of residents to the suburbs." Sorry but that's not what caused the flight of residents to the suburbs! The suburbs have expressways (freeways) too.
Quote from: Henry on December 06, 2017, 09:47:35 AM
Call it M-375, and get it over with!
I vote for not giving it a number.
Quote from: billtm on June 08, 2014, 03:43:31 PM
Will the new I-375 Boulevard be signed as Route M-10? :hmmm:
And if it is, would the fact that it intersects Route M-3 twice be confusing? :confused:
I doubt it, no one really calls streets in Detroit by their numbers though.
M-10 is the Lodge, M-3 is Gratiot, M-1 is Woodward, M-5 is Grand River, M-85 is Fort, M-8 is Davison, M-39 is Southfield and so on.
So to answer your second question I don't think it would be, people would know they are on either Gratiot or Randolph.
I fully support getting rid of I-375 all together, getting rid of the Gratiot connector, getting rid of the Lodge south of Grand Blvd. to fix that awful interchange with the Ford and one further down with the Fisher. That Ford/Lodge interchange was planned in the 1950's and hasn't been upgraded since, has left lane movements between both freeways and takes up a large chunk of land. Not to mention it completely destroyed 4th Street with Holden dead ending at the Lodge on both sides you can tell by just looking at a map that the street use to go through.
Quote from: Terry Shea on December 06, 2017, 04:22:22 PM
What waste of money! And get this crap: "expressways did incalculable damage to cities like Detroit, destroying viable neighborhoods and facilitating the flight of residents to the suburbs." Sorry but that's not what caused the flight of residents to the suburbs! The suburbs have expressways (freeways) too.
They didn't before Detroit did. The flight to the suburbs started when the freeways were built.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 06, 2017, 03:06:58 PM
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I like this part of the project more.
What I like the most here is getting rid of that Gratiot Connector. I have hated that stretch of freeway forever.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 06, 2017, 05:40:12 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on December 06, 2017, 04:22:22 PM
What waste of money! And get this crap: "expressways did incalculable damage to cities like Detroit, destroying viable neighborhoods and facilitating the flight of residents to the suburbs." Sorry but that's not what caused the flight of residents to the suburbs! The suburbs have expressways (freeways) too.
They didn't before Detroit did. The flight to the suburbs started when the freeways were built.
Utter and complete bullshit. The flight was already in progress when the freeways were built. One could date the start of it to the 1943 riot.
fixing that jog on 75 is a great thing. i'd also kill m-10 south of 75.
Quote from: Brandon on December 06, 2017, 05:58:03 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 06, 2017, 05:40:12 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on December 06, 2017, 04:22:22 PM
What waste of money! And get this crap: "expressways did incalculable damage to cities like Detroit, destroying viable neighborhoods and facilitating the flight of residents to the suburbs." Sorry but that's not what caused the flight of residents to the suburbs! The suburbs have expressways (freeways) too.
They didn't before Detroit did. The flight to the suburbs started when the freeways were built.
Utter and complete bullshit. The flight was already in progress when the freeways were built. One could date the start of it to the 1943 riot.
Detroit still reported growth between 1940 and 1950, the 1960 census is the first one where Detroit lost population. The freeways in Detroit were planned and built in the 1940's and 1950's.
Let's not forget just how many vibrant neighborhoods and business districts the freeways replaced when they were being built. Just looking at HistoricAerials, it's extremely depressing to see just what transpired in only a few decades. Riots were a main instigator, but freeways just made it extremely convenient for white flight to occur.
I don't like freeway-to-boulevard conversions. I'm okay with getting rid of the eastward stub to Gratiot Avenue, but given how much traffic uses existing Interstate 375 (80,000), the boulevard would have to be at least 6, more likely 8 lanes to not be horribly congested. And turn lanes would also have to be plentiful.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 07, 2017, 06:10:55 PM
I don't like freeway-to-boulevard conversions. I'm okay with getting rid of the eastward stub to Gratiot Avenue, but given how much traffic uses existing Interstate 375 (80,000), the boulevard would have to be at least 6, more likely 8 lanes to not be horribly congested. And turn lanes would also have to be plentiful.
Not even close to 80,000 use I-375 daily. The northern portion has about 53,000 vpd, the southern portion has about 14,000 vpd. Most of the traffic is exiting at Madison or Lafayette. I-375 is a useless expressway, it'd be better served to cut the expressway at Gratiot and have a surface street the rest of the way using the existing service drives. Traffic after the first exit south of I-75 on both I-375 and the Lodge drop.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2017, 08:24:22 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 07, 2017, 06:10:55 PM
I don't like freeway-to-boulevard conversions. I'm okay with getting rid of the eastward stub to Gratiot Avenue, but given how much traffic uses existing Interstate 375 (80,000), the boulevard would have to be at least 6, more likely 8 lanes to not be horribly congested. And turn lanes would also have to be plentiful.
Not even close to 80,000 use I-375 daily. The northern portion has about 53,000 vpd, the southern portion has about 14,000 vpd. Most of the traffic is exiting at Madison or Lafayette. I-375 is a useless expressway, it'd be better served to cut the expressway at Gratiot and have a surface street the rest of the way using the existing service drives. Traffic after the first exit south of I-75 on both I-375 and the Lodge drop.
Then why did they make it into a interstate in the first place considering Detroit started to decline in the 60s?
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on December 07, 2017, 08:39:37 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2017, 08:24:22 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 07, 2017, 06:10:55 PM
I don't like freeway-to-boulevard conversions. I'm okay with getting rid of the eastward stub to Gratiot Avenue, but given how much traffic uses existing Interstate 375 (80,000), the boulevard would have to be at least 6, more likely 8 lanes to not be horribly congested. And turn lanes would also have to be plentiful.
Not even close to 80,000 use I-375 daily. The northern portion has about 53,000 vpd, the southern portion has about 14,000 vpd. Most of the traffic is exiting at Madison or Lafayette. I-375 is a useless expressway, it'd be better served to cut the expressway at Gratiot and have a surface street the rest of the way using the existing service drives. Traffic after the first exit south of I-75 on both I-375 and the Lodge drop.
Then why did they make it into a interstate in the first place considering Detroit started to decline in the 60s?
Making it into an Interstate didn't have anything to do with Detroit declining. I-375 was originally intended to be the route of I-75 into downtown Detroit under early proposals. However, the federal government forced Detroit and the State of Michigan to route I-75 further away from the river, so the remnant spur was designated I-375. This is why I-75 has to change from the Fisher Freeway to the Chrysler Freeway north of downtown.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2017, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on December 07, 2017, 08:39:37 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2017, 08:24:22 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 07, 2017, 06:10:55 PM
I don't like freeway-to-boulevard conversions. I'm okay with getting rid of the eastward stub to Gratiot Avenue, but given how much traffic uses existing Interstate 375 (80,000), the boulevard would have to be at least 6, more likely 8 lanes to not be horribly congested. And turn lanes would also have to be plentiful.
Not even close to 80,000 use I-375 daily. The northern portion has about 53,000 vpd, the southern portion has about 14,000 vpd. Most of the traffic is exiting at Madison or Lafayette. I-375 is a useless expressway, it'd be better served to cut the expressway at Gratiot and have a surface street the rest of the way using the existing service drives. Traffic after the first exit south of I-75 on both I-375 and the Lodge drop.
Then why did they make it into a interstate in the first place considering Detroit started to decline in the 60s?
Making it into an Interstate didn't have anything to do with Detroit declining. I-375 was originally intended to be the route of I-75 into downtown Detroit under early proposals. However, the federal government forced Detroit and the State of Michigan to route I-75 further away from the river, so the remnant spur was designated I-375. This is why I-75 has to change from the Fisher Freeway to the Chrysler Freeway north of downtown.
really? interesting, having 75 go down to the river would have been an awful idea!
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 08, 2017, 06:11:25 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2017, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on December 07, 2017, 08:39:37 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2017, 08:24:22 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 07, 2017, 06:10:55 PM
I don't like freeway-to-boulevard conversions. I'm okay with getting rid of the eastward stub to Gratiot Avenue, but given how much traffic uses existing Interstate 375 (80,000), the boulevard would have to be at least 6, more likely 8 lanes to not be horribly congested. And turn lanes would also have to be plentiful.
Not even close to 80,000 use I-375 daily. The northern portion has about 53,000 vpd, the southern portion has about 14,000 vpd. Most of the traffic is exiting at Madison or Lafayette. I-375 is a useless expressway, it'd be better served to cut the expressway at Gratiot and have a surface street the rest of the way using the existing service drives. Traffic after the first exit south of I-75 on both I-375 and the Lodge drop.
Then why did they make it into a interstate in the first place considering Detroit started to decline in the 60s?
Making it into an Interstate didn't have anything to do with Detroit declining. I-375 was originally intended to be the route of I-75 into downtown Detroit under early proposals. However, the federal government forced Detroit and the State of Michigan to route I-75 further away from the river, so the remnant spur was designated I-375. This is why I-75 has to change from the Fisher Freeway to the Chrysler Freeway north of downtown.
really? interesting, having 75 go down to the river would have been an awful idea!
Yep really I-75 should run as a multiplex with I-94 between where I-75 is now and I-96 and then follow I-96 south to reconnect with I-75 to go south of Detroit the current I-75 between I-94 to where I-96 ends should be removed as well.
SAMSUNG-SM-J727A
The articles JREwing sited on December 5th said 80,000. Flint1979's numbers are likely accurate. I still think the downgrade to a boulevard is not the best idea. The articles did not say how many lanes the new boulevard would be, nor what the speed limit of the new boulevard would be. If it isn't at least 6 lanes, and the speed limit is 25 or 30 MPH, I'd expect it would become congested, and certainly not pedestrian-friendly. Personally I would have left Interstate 375 in its existing configuration. If this freeway-to-boulevard isn't designed carefully, it could be more of a boondoggle than a boon to the area.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 06, 2017, 10:50:38 PM
Quote from: Brandon on December 06, 2017, 05:58:03 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 06, 2017, 05:40:12 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on December 06, 2017, 04:22:22 PM
What waste of money! And get this crap: "expressways did incalculable damage to cities like Detroit, destroying viable neighborhoods and facilitating the flight of residents to the suburbs." Sorry but that's not what caused the flight of residents to the suburbs! The suburbs have expressways (freeways) too.
They didn't before Detroit did. The flight to the suburbs started when the freeways were built.
Utter and complete bullshit. The flight was already in progress when the freeways were built. One could date the start of it to the 1943 riot.
Detroit still reported growth between 1940 and 1950, the 1960 census is the first one where Detroit lost population. The freeways in Detroit were planned and built in the 1940's and 1950's.
My point is that it wasn't the people from the poor neighborhoods where the freeways were being built that were fleeing Detroit. It was the largely the upper middle class and rich people who fled to the suburbs. You can't simply jump to that conclusion based purely on the timing. There was a myriad of other factors involved, such as students being bussed clear across town, race riots and so on. It was the more affluent white people who fled Detroit and it had nothing, or at least very little to do with freeways being built. Indeed, after people fled to the suburbs freeways were built there, and there was not a mass exodus from these suburbs where the newer freeways were built.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 08, 2017, 06:50:19 PM
The articles JREwing sited on December 5th said 80,000. Flint1979's numbers are likely accurate. I still think the downgrade to a boulevard is not the best idea. The articles did not say how many lanes the new boulevard would be, nor what the speed limit of the new boulevard would be. If it isn't at least 6 lanes, and the speed limit is 25 or 30 MPH, I'd expect it would become congested, and certainly not pedestrian-friendly. Personally I would have left Interstate 375 in its existing configuration. If this freeway-to-boulevard isn't designed carefully, it could be more of a boondoggle than a boon to the area.
Maybe the original building of I-375 was a mistake, but spending ~$50 million to create more traffic congestion is a terrible idea. Apparently MDOT made the decision but I'll bet they were heavily influenced by the City of Detroit, a city that's had a slew of great ideas like demanding that Tiger Stadium be torn down to make room for...well I'm sure something will be built there in the next millennium or 2.
I feel like a lot of the anti-boulevard comments have devolved into the usual "eliminate no freeways for any reasons" rhetoric that runs rampant here whether warranted or not, which I'm not sure if that's a reaction against urbanism tendencies or just roadgeeks upset by the idea of Interstate shields coming down.
I-375 appears to be a case where a boulevard could work well if done right but the freeway might function well with an overhaul.
In addition, if done as a proper Michigan boulevard, you still would get free-flow all the way from I-75 to the Tunnel. Some DOTs know how to time signals so one gets green lights for a very long time.
Quote from: Brandon on December 09, 2017, 07:23:55 AM
In addition, if done as a proper Michigan boulevard, you still would get free-flow all the way from I-75 to the Tunnel. Some DOTs know how to time signals so one gets green lights for a very long time.
Can't time signals in both directions when there is a signal every block. Yeah, the timing could adjust during the day to favor inbound in the mornings and outbound in the evenings. But pack a lunch if you're going the other direction, because it'll be a slow go. This what I find infuriating about Detroit's arterials (Grand River, Woodward, and Gratiot avenues) -- they have signals at most every three blocks apart, and if you're going against the timing you can look in the mirror and watch yourself age.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 08, 2017, 06:31:00 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 08, 2017, 06:11:25 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2017, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on December 07, 2017, 08:39:37 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2017, 08:24:22 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 07, 2017, 06:10:55 PM
I don't like freeway-to-boulevard conversions. I'm okay with getting rid of the eastward stub to Gratiot Avenue, but given how much traffic uses existing Interstate 375 (80,000), the boulevard would have to be at least 6, more likely 8 lanes to not be horribly congested. And turn lanes would also have to be plentiful.
Not even close to 80,000 use I-375 daily. The northern portion has about 53,000 vpd, the southern portion has about 14,000 vpd. Most of the traffic is exiting at Madison or Lafayette. I-375 is a useless expressway, it'd be better served to cut the expressway at Gratiot and have a surface street the rest of the way using the existing service drives. Traffic after the first exit south of I-75 on both I-375 and the Lodge drop.
Then why did they make it into a interstate in the first place considering Detroit started to decline in the 60s?
Making it into an Interstate didn't have anything to do with Detroit declining. I-375 was originally intended to be the route of I-75 into downtown Detroit under early proposals. However, the federal government forced Detroit and the State of Michigan to route I-75 further away from the river, so the remnant spur was designated I-375. This is why I-75 has to change from the Fisher Freeway to the Chrysler Freeway north of downtown.
really? interesting, having 75 go down to the river would have been an awful idea!
Yep really I-75 should run as a multiplex with I-94 between where I-75 is now and I-96 and then follow I-96 south to reconnect with I-75 to go south of Detroit the current I-75 between I-94 to where I-96 ends should be removed as well.
SAMSUNG-SM-J727A
Thanks for the clarification, I did not know that was the original plan for I-75, makes sense now.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on December 09, 2017, 09:03:15 AM
This what I find infuriating about Detroit's arterials (Grand River, Woodward, and Gratiot avenues) -- they have signals at most every three blocks apart, and if you're going against the timing you can look in the mirror and watch yourself age.
Last Saturday i drove 40 miles in both directions of Woodward Avenue and didn't get stopped at a red light. Now I agree that dual progression on a boulevard in downtown where block spacings are closer together would be more difficult to achieve, but your suggestion that the lights on Woodward are only timed for one direction isn't my experience. Timing a boulevard for both directions is possible, it just might not happen along the I-375 boulevard (since the block spacings are so close together).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb2R2fPB1nE&t=28s
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 09, 2017, 03:52:11 AM
I feel like a lot of the anti-boulevard comments have devolved into the usual “eliminate no freeways for any reasons” rhetoric that runs rampant here whether warranted or not, which I’m not sure if that’s a reaction against urbanism tendencies or just roadgeeks upset by the idea of Interstate shields coming down.
I-375 appears to be a case where a boulevard could work well if done right but the freeway might function well with an overhaul.
Well I can't speak for everyone else, but to me wasting $50 million dollars to tear down a freeway to put up a bunch of traffic lights in an area that services 2 pro sports teams, casinos, theatre's, etc. is way beyond stupid. It's basically a long exit ramp with sub exit ramps. Obviously it wasn't the best design, but take that long exit ramp away and you'll have even more traffic backing up onto I-75.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 06, 2017, 05:40:12 PM
They didn't before Detroit did. The flight to the suburbs started when the freeways were built.
Correlation is not causation
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 04, 2018, 11:17:56 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 09, 2017, 03:52:11 AM
I feel like a lot of the anti-boulevard comments have devolved into the usual "eliminate no freeways for any reasons" rhetoric that runs rampant here whether warranted or not, which I'm not sure if that's a reaction against urbanism tendencies or just roadgeeks upset by the idea of Interstate shields coming down.
I-375 appears to be a case where a boulevard could work well if done right but the freeway might function well with an overhaul.
Well I can't speak for everyone else, but to me wasting $50 million dollars to tear down a freeway to put up a bunch of traffic lights in an area that services 2 pro sports teams, casinos, theatre's, etc. is way beyond stupid. It's basically a long exit ramp with sub exit ramps. Obviously it wasn't the best design, but take that long exit ramp away and you'll have even more traffic backing up onto I-75.
I-375 doesn't serve the stadium areas south of the Lafayette exit and most people going to the stadium's are getting off at Madison or staying on I-75 and getting off at Grand River. I-375 is a waste of space and doesn't serve as many vehicles as people think it does. Downtown Detroit is already handicapped enough from the rest of the city (it's got the river and freeways on three sides, Cobo Hall is another blocking stone downtown. I-375 basically is useless and takes up a lot of downtown land that could be used for other purposes. I-75 should also run through a tunnel between Brush and Cass. It makes a lot of sense to remove I-375 and put a boulevard in.
I just hope they don't make it this massive 10,000 lane with massive grassy median type road you see everywhere in michigan. use the freed up space for buildings, sidewalks, public transit, and parking. also make a proper flyover for 75.
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 04, 2018, 02:13:39 PM
I just hope they don't make it this massive 10,000 lane with massive grassy median type road you see everywhere in michigan. use the freed up space for buildings, sidewalks, public transit, and parking. also make a proper flyover for 75.
That's what I'm thinking too. Use the current service drives as the boulevard or whatever you want to call it and use the space in the middle for buildings, a park, parking garages, retail stores, office buildings. I'm happy to see that they are finally building on the parking lots downtown there are far too many of them. I remember the outcry when the Madison-Lenox was demolished for a parking lot owned by none other than Mike Ilitch.
Quotealso make a proper flyover for 75.
Making 75 continuous and non-exiting (i.e. don't need to exit to stay on 75) through the interchange is part of the proposal.
Get rid of the Gratiot Connector part of the interchange all together and re-street the area and then develop it, connect downtown to Eastern Market. Then realign the curve for traffic staying on I-75, then ramp I-75 NB traffic like it is now to I-375 SB so I-75 NB traffic has access to the southbound portion of the boulevard. The freeway stops being a freeway at Gratiot and through traffic continues on the service drives as the boulevard. Both service drives can be extended to three lanes and through routed instead of like the NB service drive ending at Antietam. The traffic signals on Gratiot work at the same time and allow traffic to clear the intersection before turning red.
I simply wish that I-75 didn't exist between I-94 and I-96 and the Lodge didn't exist south of I-94. Lots of wasted land just to move traffic through and it broke up vibrant neighborhoods. I-75 should multiplex with I-94 between I-96 and itself then turn south onto current I-96 and have I-96 terminate at I-94 instead of it's current terminus makes much more sense than the current setup. I flatout can't stand the I-75 stretch between milemarkers 48-51.
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 05, 2018, 12:08:15 AM
Get rid of the Gratiot Connector part of the interchange all together and re-street the area and then develop it, connect downtown to Eastern Market. Then realign the curve for traffic staying on I-75, then ramp I-75 NB traffic like it is now to I-375 SB so I-75 NB traffic has access to the southbound portion of the boulevard. The freeway stops being a freeway at Gratiot and through traffic continues on the service drives as the boulevard. Both service drives can be extended to three lanes and through routed instead of like the NB service drive ending at Antietam. The traffic signals on Gratiot work at the same time and allow traffic to clear the intersection before turning red.
I simply wish that I-75 didn't exist between I-94 and I-96 and the Lodge didn't exist south of I-94. Lots of wasted land just to move traffic through and it broke up vibrant neighborhoods. I-75 should multiplex with I-94 between I-96 and itself then turn south onto current I-96 and have I-96 terminate at I-94 instead of it's current terminus makes much more sense than the current setup. I flatout can't stand the I-75 stretch between milemarkers 48-51.
that's actually not that bad an idea.
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 05, 2018, 08:17:15 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 05, 2018, 12:08:15 AM
Get rid of the Gratiot Connector part of the interchange all together and re-street the area and then develop it, connect downtown to Eastern Market. Then realign the curve for traffic staying on I-75, then ramp I-75 NB traffic like it is now to I-375 SB so I-75 NB traffic has access to the southbound portion of the boulevard. The freeway stops being a freeway at Gratiot and through traffic continues on the service drives as the boulevard. Both service drives can be extended to three lanes and through routed instead of like the NB service drive ending at Antietam. The traffic signals on Gratiot work at the same time and allow traffic to clear the intersection before turning red.
I simply wish that I-75 didn't exist between I-94 and I-96 and the Lodge didn't exist south of I-94. Lots of wasted land just to move traffic through and it broke up vibrant neighborhoods. I-75 should multiplex with I-94 between I-96 and itself then turn south onto current I-96 and have I-96 terminate at I-94 instead of it's current terminus makes much more sense than the current setup. I flatout can't stand the I-75 stretch between milemarkers 48-51.
that's actually not that bad an idea.
I like it because it would make Detroit feel like a real city compared to what it's like now. I feel that Detroit is now too broken up by the freeway system. Connect Downtown to Midtown to New Center to the rest of the city.
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 05, 2018, 12:08:15 AM
Get rid of the Gratiot Connector part of the interchange all together and re-street the area and then develop it, connect downtown to Eastern Market. Then realign the curve for traffic staying on I-75, then ramp I-75 NB traffic like it is now to I-375 SB so I-75 NB traffic has access to the southbound portion of the boulevard. The freeway stops being a freeway at Gratiot and through traffic continues on the service drives as the boulevard. Both service drives can be extended to three lanes and through routed instead of like the NB service drive ending at Antietam. The traffic signals on Gratiot work at the same time and allow traffic to clear the intersection before turning red.
I simply wish that I-75 didn't exist between I-94 and I-96 and the Lodge didn't exist south of I-94. Lots of wasted land just to move traffic through and it broke up vibrant neighborhoods. I-75 should multiplex with I-94 between I-96 and itself then turn south onto current I-96 and have I-96 terminate at I-94 instead of it's current terminus makes much more sense than the current setup. I flatout can't stand the I-75 stretch between milemarkers 48-51.
How much extra traffic would that dump onto I-94 and I-96?
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 04, 2018, 01:50:54 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 04, 2018, 11:17:56 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 09, 2017, 03:52:11 AM
I feel like a lot of the anti-boulevard comments have devolved into the usual “eliminate no freeways for any reasons” rhetoric that runs rampant here whether warranted or not, which I’m not sure if that’s a reaction against urbanism tendencies or just roadgeeks upset by the idea of Interstate shields coming down.
I-375 appears to be a case where a boulevard could work well if done right but the freeway might function well with an overhaul.
Well I can't speak for everyone else, but to me wasting $50 million dollars to tear down a freeway to put up a bunch of traffic lights in an area that services 2 pro sports teams, casinos, theatre's, etc. is way beyond stupid. It's basically a long exit ramp with sub exit ramps. Obviously it wasn't the best design, but take that long exit ramp away and you'll have even more traffic backing up onto I-75.
I-375 doesn't serve the stadium areas south of the Lafayette exit and most people going to the stadium's are getting off at Madison or staying on I-75 and getting off at Grand River. I-375 is a waste of space and doesn't serve as many vehicles as people think it does. Downtown Detroit is already handicapped enough from the rest of the city (it's got the river and freeways on three sides, Cobo Hall is another blocking stone downtown. I-375 basically is useless and takes up a lot of downtown land that could be used for other purposes. I-75 should also run through a tunnel between Brush and Cass. It makes a lot of sense to remove I-375 and put a boulevard in.
I always take I-375 when going to see the Tigers or Greektown Casino. One block east of I-375 parking is much cheaper.
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 05, 2018, 12:08:15 AM
Get rid of the Gratiot Connector part of the interchange all together and re-street the area and then develop it, connect downtown to Eastern Market. Then realign the curve for traffic staying on I-75, then ramp I-75 NB traffic like it is now to I-375 SB so I-75 NB traffic has access to the southbound portion of the boulevard. The freeway stops being a freeway at Gratiot and through traffic continues on the service drives as the boulevard. Both service drives can be extended to three lanes and through routed instead of like the NB service drive ending at Antietam. The traffic signals on Gratiot work at the same time and allow traffic to clear the intersection before turning red.
I simply wish that I-75 didn't exist between I-94 and I-96 and the Lodge didn't exist south of I-94. Lots of wasted land just to move traffic through and it broke up vibrant neighborhoods. I-75 should multiplex with I-94 between I-96 and itself then turn south onto current I-96 and have I-96 terminate at I-94 instead of it's current terminus makes much more sense than the current setup. I flatout can't stand the I-75 stretch between milemarkers 48-51.
Develop it with what? They tore down Tiger Stadium years ago to make room for...absolutely nothing! Mr. Ilitch is gone and I don't see anyone else investing vast amounts of money in the area...especially with the decline of most of the Detroit sports teams.
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 05, 2018, 12:58:40 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 05, 2018, 12:08:15 AM
Get rid of the Gratiot Connector part of the interchange all together and re-street the area and then develop it, connect downtown to Eastern Market. Then realign the curve for traffic staying on I-75, then ramp I-75 NB traffic like it is now to I-375 SB so I-75 NB traffic has access to the southbound portion of the boulevard. The freeway stops being a freeway at Gratiot and through traffic continues on the service drives as the boulevard. Both service drives can be extended to three lanes and through routed instead of like the NB service drive ending at Antietam. The traffic signals on Gratiot work at the same time and allow traffic to clear the intersection before turning red.
I simply wish that I-75 didn't exist between I-94 and I-96 and the Lodge didn't exist south of I-94. Lots of wasted land just to move traffic through and it broke up vibrant neighborhoods. I-75 should multiplex with I-94 between I-96 and itself then turn south onto current I-96 and have I-96 terminate at I-94 instead of it's current terminus makes much more sense than the current setup. I flatout can't stand the I-75 stretch between milemarkers 48-51.
Develop it with what? They tore down Tiger Stadium years ago to make room for...absolutely nothing! Mr. Ilitch is gone and I don't see anyone else investing vast amounts of money in the area...especially with the decline of most of the Detroit sports teams.
Develop it with buildings. What do you mean you don't see anyone else putting money into the area? When's the last time you were in Detroit? Ever hear of Dan Gilbert? Who has put tons of dollars of new investment into Detroit. Detroit is much different than it was 10 years ago. There is also the new arena around which is going to be developed. Who cares about Tiger Stadium? That site is fine the way it is.
SAMSUNG-SM-J727A
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 05, 2018, 12:53:11 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 04, 2018, 01:50:54 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 04, 2018, 11:17:56 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 09, 2017, 03:52:11 AM
I feel like a lot of the anti-boulevard comments have devolved into the usual “eliminate no freeways for any reasons” rhetoric that runs rampant here whether warranted or not, which I’m not sure if that’s a reaction against urbanism tendencies or just roadgeeks upset by the idea of Interstate shields coming down.
I-375 appears to be a case where a boulevard could work well if done right but the freeway might function well with an overhaul.
Well I can't speak for everyone else, but to me wasting $50 million dollars to tear down a freeway to put up a bunch of traffic lights in an area that services 2 pro sports teams, casinos, theatre's, etc. is way beyond stupid. It's basically a long exit ramp with sub exit ramps. Obviously it wasn't the best design, but take that long exit ramp away and you'll have even more traffic backing up onto I-75.
I-375 doesn't serve the stadium areas south of the Lafayette exit and most people going to the stadium's are getting off at Madison or staying on I-75 and getting off at Grand River. I-375 is a waste of space and doesn't serve as many vehicles as people think it does. Downtown Detroit is already handicapped enough from the rest of the city (it's got the river and freeways on three sides, Cobo Hall is another blocking stone downtown. I-375 basically is useless and takes up a lot of downtown land that could be used for other purposes. I-75 should also run through a tunnel between Brush and Cass. It makes a lot of sense to remove I-375 and put a boulevard in.
I always take I-375 when going to see the Tigers or Greektown Casino. One block east of I-375 parking is much cheaper.
Ok that movement would involve crossing Gratiot and turning at Macomb. This idea would still serve all the traffic fine.
SAMSUNG-SM-J727A
Quote from: Terry Shea on January 05, 2018, 12:45:40 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 05, 2018, 12:08:15 AM
Get rid of the Gratiot Connector part of the interchange all together and re-street the area and then develop it, connect downtown to Eastern Market. Then realign the curve for traffic staying on I-75, then ramp I-75 NB traffic like it is now to I-375 SB so I-75 NB traffic has access to the southbound portion of the boulevard. The freeway stops being a freeway at Gratiot and through traffic continues on the service drives as the boulevard. Both service drives can be extended to three lanes and through routed instead of like the NB service drive ending at Antietam. The traffic signals on Gratiot work at the same time and allow traffic to clear the intersection before turning red.
I simply wish that I-75 didn't exist between I-94 and I-96 and the Lodge didn't exist south of I-94. Lots of wasted land just to move traffic through and it broke up vibrant neighborhoods. I-75 should multiplex with I-94 between I-96 and itself then turn south onto current I-96 and have I-96 terminate at I-94 instead of it's current terminus makes much more sense than the current setup. I flatout can't stand the I-75 stretch between milemarkers 48-51.
How much extra traffic would that dump onto I-94 and I-96?
From I-75 quite a bit I-94 is about to be widened through there anyway and should really be ten lanes. I-96 would be fine.
From the Lodge probably about the same as it is now since most of that traffic is coming and going from downtown.
SAMSUNG-SM-J727A
Does anyone know whether the local residents support or oppose turning Interstate 375 into a boulevard?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 16, 2018, 06:16:08 PM
Does anyone know whether the local residents support or oppose turning Interstate 375 into a boulevard?
I'm pretty sure local residents don't care one way or the other. This freeway is downtown, not really in a residential neighborhood.
if anything, they'd be for it. unless these freeway removal people are just a vocal minority
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 16, 2018, 06:56:53 PM
if anything, they'd be for it. unless these freeway removal people are just a vocal minority
I'm pretty sure most people in Detroit are for it.
I know this thread has been dormant for some months, but I just came across some information on the MDOT website. Looks like all the proposals have been narrowed down to two preferred alternatives. Both call for what is now I-375 to be rebuilt as a surface boulevard south of Gratiot Avenue. The difference between the two alternatives is configuration and alignment of the new boulevard.
Both alternatives call for reconstructing the I-75/I-375 interchange to make I-75 the through movement, eliminating the Gratiot Connector, and eliminating the left-hand Madison Avenue exit and entrance ramps in favor of a new combined Gratiot/Madison interchange. Interestingly, the proposed redesigned interchange has the new northbound boulevard making a left-hand merge onto northbound I-75.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_I-375_Practical_Alternatives_608079_7.pdf
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 19, 2018, 08:46:29 PM
I know this thread has been dormant for some months, but I just came across some information on the MDOT website. Looks like all the proposals have been narrowed down to two preferred alternatives. Both call for what is now I-375 to be rebuilt as a surface boulevard south of Gratiot Avenue. The difference between the two alternatives is configuration and alignment of the new boulevard.
Both alternatives call for reconstructing the I-75/I-375 interchange to make I-75 the through movement, eliminating the Gratiot Connector, and eliminating the left-hand Madison Avenue exit and entrance ramps in favor of a new combined Gratiot/Madison interchange. Interestingly, the proposed redesigned interchange has the new northbound boulevard making a left-hand merge onto northbound I-75.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_I-375_Practical_Alternatives_608079_7.pdf
I wonder what the freeway name is going to be since currently it switches from the Fisher to the Chrysler. I think this is the best one I've seen yet and hope this is the one they go with.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 19, 2018, 09:50:24 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 19, 2018, 08:46:29 PM
I know this thread has been dormant for some months, but I just came across some information on the MDOT website. Looks like all the proposals have been narrowed down to two preferred alternatives. Both call for what is now I-375 to be rebuilt as a surface boulevard south of Gratiot Avenue. The difference between the two alternatives is configuration and alignment of the new boulevard.
Both alternatives call for reconstructing the I-75/I-375 interchange to make I-75 the through movement, eliminating the Gratiot Connector, and eliminating the left-hand Madison Avenue exit and entrance ramps in favor of a new combined Gratiot/Madison interchange. Interestingly, the proposed redesigned interchange has the new northbound boulevard making a left-hand merge onto northbound I-75.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_I-375_Practical_Alternatives_608079_7.pdf
I wonder what the freeway name is going to be since currently it switches from the Fisher to the Chrysler. I think this is the best one I've seen yet and hope this is the one they go with.
I agree these look like much needed improvements to downtown Detroit, but I have a couple questions about the design alternatives that struck me as a little odd.
1. Why is there a stoplight in between Lafayette St. and Larned St.?
2. In alternative 4, why didn't they make the new local road/service drive extend further northward to make it a continuation of the new I-75 exit ramp to Madison St./Gratoit Av. (which is how they did it in alternative 5, but with the entrance ramp)?
Quote from: billtm on May 20, 2018, 02:30:51 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 19, 2018, 09:50:24 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 19, 2018, 08:46:29 PM
I know this thread has been dormant for some months, but I just came across some information on the MDOT website. Looks like all the proposals have been narrowed down to two preferred alternatives. Both call for what is now I-375 to be rebuilt as a surface boulevard south of Gratiot Avenue. The difference between the two alternatives is configuration and alignment of the new boulevard.
Both alternatives call for reconstructing the I-75/I-375 interchange to make I-75 the through movement, eliminating the Gratiot Connector, and eliminating the left-hand Madison Avenue exit and entrance ramps in favor of a new combined Gratiot/Madison interchange. Interestingly, the proposed redesigned interchange has the new northbound boulevard making a left-hand merge onto northbound I-75.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_I-375_Practical_Alternatives_608079_7.pdf
I wonder what the freeway name is going to be since currently it switches from the Fisher to the Chrysler. I think this is the best one I've seen yet and hope this is the one they go with.
I agree these look like much needed improvements to downtown Detroit, but I have a couple questions about the design alternatives that struck me as a little odd.
1. Why is there a stoplight in between Lafayette St. and Larned St.?
2. In alternative 4, why didn't they make the new local road/service drive extend further northward to make it a continuation of the new I-75 exit ramp to Madison St./Gratoit Av. (which is how they did it in alternative 5, but with the entrance ramp)?
1. My best guess is that this will function like a Michigan Left Turn and that one as well as the one north of Lafayette are for the turn arounds. In Alternate 5 only the one you mentioned would function like this since the one north of Lafayette would be for Monroe Street.
2. I'm not sure I understand what you mean with this one.
i think it's too wide, and the median to too big. what's the point of the 2 way side road anyway?
Quote from: silverback1065 on May 20, 2018, 03:48:10 PM
i think it's too wide, and the median to too big. what's the point of the 2 way side road anyway?
The two way side road is there in alternative 4 in order to reduce boulevard access points and probably for local access if they put buildings in between the main boulevard and the service drive.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 20, 2018, 03:09:33 PM
Quote from: billtm on May 20, 2018, 02:30:51 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 19, 2018, 09:50:24 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 19, 2018, 08:46:29 PM
I know this thread has been dormant for some months, but I just came across some information on the MDOT website. Looks like all the proposals have been narrowed down to two preferred alternatives. Both call for what is now I-375 to be rebuilt as a surface boulevard south of Gratiot Avenue. The difference between the two alternatives is configuration and alignment of the new boulevard.
Both alternatives call for reconstructing the I-75/I-375 interchange to make I-75 the through movement, eliminating the Gratiot Connector, and eliminating the left-hand Madison Avenue exit and entrance ramps in favor of a new combined Gratiot/Madison interchange. Interestingly, the proposed redesigned interchange has the new northbound boulevard making a left-hand merge onto northbound I-75.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_I-375_Practical_Alternatives_608079_7.pdf
I wonder what the freeway name is going to be since currently it switches from the Fisher to the Chrysler. I think this is the best one I've seen yet and hope this is the one they go with.
I agree these look like much needed improvements to downtown Detroit, but I have a couple questions about the design alternatives that struck me as a little odd.
1. Why is there a stoplight in between Lafayette St. and Larned St.?
2. In alternative 4, why didn't they make the new local road/service drive extend further northward to make it a continuation of the new I-75 exit ramp to Madison St./Gratoit Av. (which is how they did it in alternative 5, but with the entrance ramp)?
1. My best guess is that this will function like a Michigan Left Turn and that one as well as the one north of Lafayette are for the turn arounds. In Alternate 5 only the one you mentioned would function like this since the one north of Lafayette would be for Monroe Street.
2. I'm not sure I understand what you mean with this one.
To (hopefully) clarify my second question, in alternative 5 the service drive extends all the way up to the Gratoit Avenue interchange, but in alternative 4 the service drive terminates at Monroe Street and instead there is an entrance ramp from Gratoit Avenue to the boulevard. Why not just have the two way service road go up to Gratoit? I feel like a two-way street would be better than a one-way ramp.
Quote from: billtm on May 20, 2018, 04:42:43 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 20, 2018, 03:09:33 PM
Quote from: billtm on May 20, 2018, 02:30:51 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 19, 2018, 09:50:24 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 19, 2018, 08:46:29 PM
I know this thread has been dormant for some months, but I just came across some information on the MDOT website. Looks like all the proposals have been narrowed down to two preferred alternatives. Both call for what is now I-375 to be rebuilt as a surface boulevard south of Gratiot Avenue. The difference between the two alternatives is configuration and alignment of the new boulevard.
Both alternatives call for reconstructing the I-75/I-375 interchange to make I-75 the through movement, eliminating the Gratiot Connector, and eliminating the left-hand Madison Avenue exit and entrance ramps in favor of a new combined Gratiot/Madison interchange. Interestingly, the proposed redesigned interchange has the new northbound boulevard making a left-hand merge onto northbound I-75.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_I-375_Practical_Alternatives_608079_7.pdf
I wonder what the freeway name is going to be since currently it switches from the Fisher to the Chrysler. I think this is the best one I've seen yet and hope this is the one they go with.
I agree these look like much needed improvements to downtown Detroit, but I have a couple questions about the design alternatives that struck me as a little odd.
1. Why is there a stoplight in between Lafayette St. and Larned St.?
2. In alternative 4, why didn't they make the new local road/service drive extend further northward to make it a continuation of the new I-75 exit ramp to Madison St./Gratoit Av. (which is how they did it in alternative 5, but with the entrance ramp)?
1. My best guess is that this will function like a Michigan Left Turn and that one as well as the one north of Lafayette are for the turn arounds. In Alternate 5 only the one you mentioned would function like this since the one north of Lafayette would be for Monroe Street.
2. I'm not sure I understand what you mean with this one.
To (hopefully) clarify my second question, in alternative 5 the service drive extends all the way up to the Gratoit Avenue interchange, but in alternative 4 the service drive terminates at Monroe Street and instead there is an entrance ramp from Gratoit Avenue to the boulevard. Why not just have the two way service road go up to Gratoit? I feel like a two-way street would be better than a one-way ramp.
Ok I see what you mean and I'm not sure why they'd do that I guess this is why we should hope for Alternate 5. I don't see why they don't just have two one way streets instead of the boulevard and two way street and develop the land in the middle.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 20, 2018, 05:10:25 PM
Quote from: billtm on May 20, 2018, 04:42:43 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 20, 2018, 03:09:33 PM
Quote from: billtm on May 20, 2018, 02:30:51 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 19, 2018, 09:50:24 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 19, 2018, 08:46:29 PM
I know this thread has been dormant for some months, but I just came across some information on the MDOT website. Looks like all the proposals have been narrowed down to two preferred alternatives. Both call for what is now I-375 to be rebuilt as a surface boulevard south of Gratiot Avenue. The difference between the two alternatives is configuration and alignment of the new boulevard.
Both alternatives call for reconstructing the I-75/I-375 interchange to make I-75 the through movement, eliminating the Gratiot Connector, and eliminating the left-hand Madison Avenue exit and entrance ramps in favor of a new combined Gratiot/Madison interchange. Interestingly, the proposed redesigned interchange has the new northbound boulevard making a left-hand merge onto northbound I-75.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_I-375_Practical_Alternatives_608079_7.pdf
I wonder what the freeway name is going to be since currently it switches from the Fisher to the Chrysler. I think this is the best one I've seen yet and hope this is the one they go with.
I agree these look like much needed improvements to downtown Detroit, but I have a couple questions about the design alternatives that struck me as a little odd.
1. Why is there a stoplight in between Lafayette St. and Larned St.?
2. In alternative 4, why didn't they make the new local road/service drive extend further northward to make it a continuation of the new I-75 exit ramp to Madison St./Gratoit Av. (which is how they did it in alternative 5, but with the entrance ramp)?
1. My best guess is that this will function like a Michigan Left Turn and that one as well as the one north of Lafayette are for the turn arounds. In Alternate 5 only the one you mentioned would function like this since the one north of Lafayette would be for Monroe Street.
2. I'm not sure I understand what you mean with this one.
To (hopefully) clarify my second question, in alternative 5 the service drive extends all the way up to the Gratoit Avenue interchange, but in alternative 4 the service drive terminates at Monroe Street and instead there is an entrance ramp from Gratoit Avenue to the boulevard. Why not just have the two way service road go up to Gratoit? I feel like a two-way street would be better than a one-way ramp.
Ok I see what you mean and I'm not sure why they'd do that I guess this is why we should hope for Alternate 5. I don't see why they don't just have two one way streets instead of the boulevard and two way street and develop the land in the middle.
Two one-way streets with a depressed greenway (e.g. space for a bike path) or space for other use in the middle was Alternate 6, which for whatever reason was eliminated.
I'd guess at least part of the reason for not extending the secondary two-way road on the west side of the boulevard up to Gratiot Avenue (Alternate 4) is that all northbound traffic on that road would need to turn left or right onto Gratiot. Continuing straight north through the intersection would directly put motorists the wrong way onto either direction of I-75. Given the number of wrong-way freeway driving incidents we've had around here lately, plus the number of visitors unfamiliar with the area (e.g. going to the casino or attending stadium events), a design easily allowing that error probably would be a Bad Thing. This isn't an issue if the secondary road is on the east side of the boulevard (Alternate 5), as any northbound traffic continuing past Gratiot will correctly merge into either direction of I-75.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 20, 2018, 10:04:01 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 20, 2018, 05:10:25 PM
Quote from: billtm on May 20, 2018, 04:42:43 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 20, 2018, 03:09:33 PM
Quote from: billtm on May 20, 2018, 02:30:51 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 19, 2018, 09:50:24 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on May 19, 2018, 08:46:29 PM
I know this thread has been dormant for some months, but I just came across some information on the MDOT website. Looks like all the proposals have been narrowed down to two preferred alternatives. Both call for what is now I-375 to be rebuilt as a surface boulevard south of Gratiot Avenue. The difference between the two alternatives is configuration and alignment of the new boulevard.
Both alternatives call for reconstructing the I-75/I-375 interchange to make I-75 the through movement, eliminating the Gratiot Connector, and eliminating the left-hand Madison Avenue exit and entrance ramps in favor of a new combined Gratiot/Madison interchange. Interestingly, the proposed redesigned interchange has the new northbound boulevard making a left-hand merge onto northbound I-75.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_I-375_Practical_Alternatives_608079_7.pdf
I wonder what the freeway name is going to be since currently it switches from the Fisher to the Chrysler. I think this is the best one I've seen yet and hope this is the one they go with.
I agree these look like much needed improvements to downtown Detroit, but I have a couple questions about the design alternatives that struck me as a little odd.
1. Why is there a stoplight in between Lafayette St. and Larned St.?
2. In alternative 4, why didn't they make the new local road/service drive extend further northward to make it a continuation of the new I-75 exit ramp to Madison St./Gratoit Av. (which is how they did it in alternative 5, but with the entrance ramp)?
1. My best guess is that this will function like a Michigan Left Turn and that one as well as the one north of Lafayette are for the turn arounds. In Alternate 5 only the one you mentioned would function like this since the one north of Lafayette would be for Monroe Street.
2. I'm not sure I understand what you mean with this one.
To (hopefully) clarify my second question, in alternative 5 the service drive extends all the way up to the Gratoit Avenue interchange, but in alternative 4 the service drive terminates at Monroe Street and instead there is an entrance ramp from Gratoit Avenue to the boulevard. Why not just have the two way service road go up to Gratoit? I feel like a two-way street would be better than a one-way ramp.
Ok I see what you mean and I'm not sure why they'd do that I guess this is why we should hope for Alternate 5. I don't see why they don't just have two one way streets instead of the boulevard and two way street and develop the land in the middle.
Two one-way streets with a depressed greenway (e.g. space for a bike path) or space for other use in the middle was Alternate 6, which for whatever reason was eliminated.
I'd guess at least part of the reason for not extending the secondary two-way road on the west side of the boulevard up to Gratiot Avenue (Alternate 4) is that all northbound traffic on that road would need to turn left or right onto Gratiot. Continuing straight north through the intersection would directly put motorists the wrong way onto either direction of I-75. Given the number of wrong-way freeway driving incidents we've had around here lately, plus the number of visitors unfamiliar with the area (e.g. going to the casino or attending stadium events), a design easily allowing that error probably would be a Bad Thing. This isn't an issue if the secondary road is on the east side of the boulevard (Alternate 5), as any northbound traffic continuing past Gratiot will correctly merge into either direction of I-75.
I didn't think about that. That makes a lot more sense now!
Which is worse for a downtown area? A four-lane freeway? Or an eight-lane boulevard? I would definitely say the latter. Crossing that boulevard looks like it would be a pain.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 24, 2018, 03:38:09 PM
Which is worse for a downtown area? A four-lane freeway? Or an eight-lane boulevard? I would definitely say the latter. Crossing that boulevard looks like it would be a pain.
Look how much space that four lane freeway takes up though. You could develop an entire block of buildings between two one way streets right there. I personally don't think the freeways were meant for the inner cities and Detroit seems to have overdone the freeway system now.
At least with an 8-lane boulevard, you can have buildings right up to the street. Can't exactly do that with a freeway.
And let's face it. Detroit's a city. It should have buildings.
Quote from: froggie on May 24, 2018, 05:10:12 PM
At least with an 8-lane boulevard, you can have buildings right up to the street. Can't exactly do that with a freeway.
And let's face it. Detroit's a city. It should have buildings.
One can bury a freeway in a tunnel (cut and cover). Can't do that with a wide boulevard.
They can, yes...but only at significant expense.
i'm just saying it's too wide.
I hate how freeway's breakup the fabric of connecting neighborhoods in a city. I can imagine around 1950 the area north of where old Tiger Stadium stood was a vibrant neighborhood then I-75 was put in and broke up Corktown from North Corktown. Now North Corktown has a lot of abandonment and vacant lots with nothing on them.
I like how Detroit's freeways for the most part direct you towards downtown but I don't like the overuse of the freeways within the city limits. I-94 should be capped between 2nd or Cass and Brush or Beaubien and I-75 should be capped between Grand River and Brush and I didn't leave another option for this one because it's ridiculous that the freeways carve up the city of Detroit. You can cap I-75 from Outer Drive (exit 42) to 8 Mile (exit 59) and I'm good with that too. They should do something to make the Lodge a boulevard too and attach the entire west side of Detroit to downtown, make it a boulevard from Grand Blvd. to Fort and while they are at it they can extend the cap on I-75 to the new Lodge Blvd.
Reviving the thread for this new news:
I-375 redesign funding redirected while project study continueshttps://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/07/29/mdot-375-funding-project/5532790002/
Quote
Darcie Moran, Detroit Free Press
The funding allotted for the rebuilding of Interstate 375 was moved to aid other projects while study of the effort continues, says Michigan Department of Transportation Director Paul C. Ajegba.
Crain's Detroit Business first reported Gov. Gretchen Whitmer's administration pulling the $180 million in MDOT's five-year project plan, leaving $6 million still slated for project planning.
In January, Whitmer announced her latest plan to "fix the damn roads" – a $3.5-billion road bonding plan – and the State Transportation Commission, made up of governor appointees, removed the I-375 project from its 5-year approved project list.
Discussions on turning the milelong strip back into a surface street have spanned much of the last decade. It's been long recognized as a remnant of the 1960s, when Black Detroit neighborhoods were destroyed for freeways to the suburbs; the Black Bottom neighborhood was destroyed for the creation of I-75 and I-375.
The history is not forgotten, but the process of reviewing possible plans for the road isn't over and needs to play out, Ajegba said. Meanwhile, other roads need attention.
"It doesn't make sense to be holding $180 million aside for something we don't know what we're going to do (with) when we have roads that are falling apart," he said.
It's also premature to say the expressway will definitely be ripped out as an environmental study is still underway and an OK from the Federal Highway Administration is still needed, he said.
The environmental study has continued for several years and proposals have included making the road a surface-level street with landscaped medians, bicycle lanes and new lighting.
With crumbling roads and Whitmer's attempts to fix them, the money was primarily redirected for other metro Detroit projects, Ajegba said.
Officials are committed to Detroit and spending significant money there, he said, pointing especially to the I-94 corridor, a nearly $2-billion investment.
"375 will eventually take care of itself but we are using that money wisely to do some big projects in the city, and that's a good thing," he said. "We're reinvesting it back in the city."
But the city of Detroit is hoping for a continued discussion while the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments, or SEMCOG, weighs the next step – removing the I-375 project from its 2020-23 Transportation Improvement Program.
SEMCOG's executive committee last week tabled an amendment to the program plan, used to get federal funding, which included pushing the project to 2027.
A Detroit representative on the transportation coordinating council had previously recommended approval of the amendment, minus the I-375 project deletion.
Detroit Chief Operating Officer Hakim Berry said officials are hoping to sit down to get more information on the choices and reasons at hand.
He noted the years of work that have gone into the project.
"There's been a lot of energy, a lot of meetings and a lot of planning to make this happen," he said. "375 is historically a thorn for many of the Detroiters here."
MDOT has opened the public comment period for this project (https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/2b43405?fbclid=IwAR1u8ePGAtyLFGIrXJuVt9ziz2EZj4uEmI7BPyHIe4z--BGiA9wACDMCxmE). Any comments received prior to February 19 will be included in the official record. A virtual outreach event and an in-person hearing will be held, respectively, on January 27 and 28 per the project page (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11058_75084---,00.html).
Quote from: froggie on May 24, 2018, 05:10:12 PM
At least with an 8-lane boulevard, you can have buildings right up to the street. Can't exactly do that with a freeway.
And let's face it. Detroit's a city. It should have buildings.
It does have buildings. About 70,000 abandoned buildings. So let's waste taxpayer money and add some more to the list. https://news.jrn.msu.edu/2017/07/detroit-an-abandoned-city/
one thing i don't like about michigan is their city streets are absurdly wide. why do you need a road to be that wide in the urban core? make it 4 11' lanes with parking on either side. so much land is wasted on these absurdly wide surface streets!
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 06, 2021, 09:43:27 PM
one thing i don't like about michigan is their city streets are absurdly wide. why do you need a road to be that wide in the urban core? make it 4 11' lanes with parking on either side. so much land is wasted on these absurdly wide surface streets!
Are you talking about the 3-lane streets with a bike path on both sides? They were formerly 4-lane streets with no bike path and were "converted."
Quote from: rawmustard on January 06, 2021, 12:56:46 AM
MDOT has opened the public comment period for this project (https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/MIDOT/bulletins/2b43405?fbclid=IwAR1u8ePGAtyLFGIrXJuVt9ziz2EZj4uEmI7BPyHIe4z--BGiA9wACDMCxmE). Any comments received prior to February 19 will be included in the official record. A virtual outreach event and an in-person hearing will be held, respectively, on January 27 and 28 per the project page (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11058_75084---,00.html).
What surprised me in the documents is that sometime mid-2019 another alternative (#5B) to replace the current I-75/I-375 interchange was proposed. It looks simpler and less expensive to construct and maintain than the original proposal (now #5A).
(https://i.imgur.com/hdJQERV.jpg)
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 06, 2021, 09:43:27 PM
one thing i don't like about michigan is their city streets are absurdly wide. why do you need a road to be that wide in the urban core? make it 4 11' lanes with parking on either side. so much land is wasted on these absurdly wide surface streets!
What street are you talking about? Michigan's city streets aren't any wider or narrower than any other state.
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 07, 2021, 06:42:33 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 06, 2021, 09:43:27 PM
one thing i don't like about michigan is their city streets are absurdly wide. why do you need a road to be that wide in the urban core? make it 4 11' lanes with parking on either side. so much land is wasted on these absurdly wide surface streets!
What street are you talking about? Michigan's city streets aren't any wider or narrower than any other state.
...or check out Salt Lake City sometime.
Quote from: Rothman on January 07, 2021, 03:57:09 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 07, 2021, 06:42:33 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 06, 2021, 09:43:27 PM
one thing i don't like about michigan is their city streets are absurdly wide. why do you need a road to be that wide in the urban core? make it 4 11' lanes with parking on either side. so much land is wasted on these absurdly wide surface streets!
What street are you talking about? Michigan's city streets aren't any wider or narrower than any other state.
...or check out Salt Lake City sometime.
i have, their downtown is a mess, also boring! woodward downtown is absurdly wide so is gratriot.
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 07, 2021, 07:51:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 07, 2021, 03:57:09 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 07, 2021, 06:42:33 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 06, 2021, 09:43:27 PM
one thing i don't like about michigan is their city streets are absurdly wide. why do you need a road to be that wide in the urban core? make it 4 11' lanes with parking on either side. so much land is wasted on these absurdly wide surface streets!
What street are you talking about? Michigan's city streets aren't any wider or narrower than any other state.
...or check out Salt Lake City sometime.
i have, their downtown is a mess, also boring! woodward downtown is absurdly wide so is gratriot.
Wut. SLC is a grid. Like...the griddiest grid of all grids. It's the exact opposite of a mess.
It's actually boring.
Quote from: Rothman on January 07, 2021, 08:37:42 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 07, 2021, 07:51:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 07, 2021, 03:57:09 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 07, 2021, 06:42:33 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 06, 2021, 09:43:27 PM
one thing i don't like about michigan is their city streets are absurdly wide. why do you need a road to be that wide in the urban core? make it 4 11' lanes with parking on either side. so much land is wasted on these absurdly wide surface streets!
What street are you talking about? Michigan's city streets aren't any wider or narrower than any other state.
...or check out Salt Lake City sometime.
i have, their downtown is a mess, also boring! woodward downtown is absurdly wide so is gratriot.
Wut. SLC is a grid. Like...the griddiest grid of all grids. It's the exact opposite of a mess.
It's actually boring.
I believe the comment about Woodward and Gratiot was referencing two Detroit streets. I know Woodward is ungodly wide from the old Detroit documentaries. I don't know about Gratiot.
And you are right about SLC. It's a flat grid on a huge scale, but at least the mountains are a nice view.
Quote from: skluth on January 07, 2021, 11:03:06 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 07, 2021, 08:37:42 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 07, 2021, 07:51:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 07, 2021, 03:57:09 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 07, 2021, 06:42:33 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 06, 2021, 09:43:27 PM
one thing i don't like about michigan is their city streets are absurdly wide. why do you need a road to be that wide in the urban core? make it 4 11' lanes with parking on either side. so much land is wasted on these absurdly wide surface streets!
What street are you talking about? Michigan's city streets aren't any wider or narrower than any other state.
...or check out Salt Lake City sometime.
i have, their downtown is a mess, also boring! woodward downtown is absurdly wide so is gratriot.
Wut. SLC is a grid. Like...the griddiest grid of all grids. It's the exact opposite of a mess.
It's actually boring.
I believe the comment about Woodward and Gratiot was referencing two Detroit streets. I know Woodward is ungodly wide from the old Detroit documentaries. I don't know about Gratiot.
And you are right about SLC. It's a flat grid on a huge scale, but at least the mountains are a nice view.
Actually, Salt Lake is fascinating if you look at it a little closer since different parts of the Salt Lake Valley have different grids. The northeast part of the valley largely uses the Salt Lake City downtown grid or a direct extension of it, but the west half and southern third of the valley uses the PLSS federal survey grid of section line roads every mile or half-mile. Then there are the smaller grids of the Avenues and the historic centers of Sandy and Magna. They just all happen to use the same coordinate numbers based from downtown SLC now.
Woodward isn't that wide downtown it's just like a normal city street. Once M-1 starts it gets wider but it's also the main street in the city and on the National Highway System. Gratiot isn't all that wide either, it has a grass median for awhile downtown. You have to remember that these are major streets that carry a lot of traffic. Gratiot is actually busier in Macomb County than Woodward is in Oakland County. Macomb is more densely populated than Oakland is too.
Whenever there is a backup or other problem on any of the freeways these streets serve as a good alternate route. Michigan and Gratiot for I-94, Woodward and Fort for I-75, Grand River for I-96 and so on. They were built before the freeways so they at one time carried all the traffic. I think the streets for the most part are as wide as they need to be. Detroit had 120 foot right of ways when they built their streets.
This is Woodward near it's busiest point. It's four lanes in each direction with a grass median. I'm not sure how narrow you guys think the street should be but this isn't even in the City of Detroit it's in the City of Royal Oak.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5058601,-83.1748469,3a,75y,350.98h,91.59t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1soJhBmKXv6s9z9d7FivCwig!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DoJhBmKXv6s9z9d7FivCwig%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D196.88168%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
Quote from: Rothman on January 07, 2021, 03:57:09 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 07, 2021, 06:42:33 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 06, 2021, 09:43:27 PM
one thing i don't like about michigan is their city streets are absurdly wide. why do you need a road to be that wide in the urban core? make it 4 11' lanes with parking on either side. so much land is wasted on these absurdly wide surface streets!
What street are you talking about? Michigan's city streets aren't any wider or narrower than any other state.
...or check out Salt Lake City sometime.
This exchange reminds of the time Mitt Romney (now representing Utah, coincidentally) said that Michigan's streets are "just right": https://www.reuters.com/article/idUS108941544820120225 (https://www.reuters.com/article/idUS108941544820120225). He also said Michigan's trees are just the right height! :)
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 08, 2021, 06:50:13 AM
Woodward isn't that wide downtown it's just like a normal city street. Once M-1 starts it gets wider but it's also the main street in the city and on the National Highway System. Gratiot isn't all that wide either, it has a grass median for awhile downtown. You have to remember that these are major streets that carry a lot of traffic. Gratiot is actually busier in Macomb County than Woodward is in Oakland County. Macomb is more densely populated than Oakland is too.
Whenever there is a backup or other problem on any of the freeways these streets serve as a good alternate route. Michigan and Gratiot for I-94, Woodward and Fort for I-75, Grand River for I-96 and so on. They were built before the freeways so they at one time carried all the traffic. I think the streets for the most part are as wide as they need to be. Detroit had 120 foot right of ways when they built their streets.
I think part of the reason for why Woodward, Gratiot, Michigan and Grand River are so wide within city limits is because they once had streetcars running down the medians. Given the amount of traffic they now carry, they don't need to have 6 lanes with parallel parking on the side, like this example: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3748231,-83.0174733,3a,75y,31.45h,79.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siM_vSFJDudmtyxwCdcKV_g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 Personally, I'd like to see them turned into boulevards.
The street widths also harken to the time before interstates, in the 1940's and '50's. Detroit's population was about 2 million and the streets were choked with traffic. Detroit was one of the first cities in the nation with urban freeways, before the Interstate act was made law. Nowadays, those wide streets can be reduce to 21st Century population levels. But, that money that city and state will take time on.
In the case of Woodward, they're trying to revive the streetcars along it with the QLine. It's going pretty slowly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QLine
https://www.railway-technology.com/projects/m-1-rail-woodward-avenue-streetcar-project-detroit/
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11058_62342---,00.html
Update to this project as it moves forward:
QuoteDETROIT, Mich. - Governor Gretchen Whitmer announces that the State of Michigan is moving forward with plans to replace the outdated I-375 freeway with an urban boulevard to spur economic development and provide easier access between adjacent areas of Detroit. The Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) has concluded their environmental review process after securing a Finding of No Significant Impact (FONSI), which allows the project to advance to the design phase, beginning this spring.
- https://www.michigan.gov/whitmer/0,9309,7-387-90499_90640-578777--,00.html
I could see the replacement become (Walter P.) Chrysler Blvd., as a complement to the freeway of the same name.
Maybe the Chrysler to Fisher (and vice versa) ramps will be better configured!
Are the plans on what they'll do with the new space finalized or are they still being worked on? Because I'm not the biggest fan of this trend where a freeway is removed and a supersized median is kept with tons of green space. I mean don't get me wrong I love parks and green space but don't overdo it. It's important to allow development to generate income and activity for the city.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 17, 2022, 02:20:22 PM
Are the plans on what they'll do with the new space finalized or are they still being worked on? Because I'm not the biggest fan of this trend where a freeway is removed and a supersized median is kept with tons of green space. I mean don't get me wrong I love parks and green space but don't overdo it. It's important to allow development to generate income and activity for the city.
Total waste of money! Tiger Stadium was razed because supposedly the space was needed for development, and then they did absolutely nothing with it. It's Detroit. There's all kinds of space to build and absolutely no demand to build anything, other than the artificial demand dreamed up by governmental tyrants!
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 17, 2022, 02:20:22 PM
Are the plans on what they'll do with the new space finalized or are they still being worked on? Because I'm not the biggest fan of this trend where a freeway is removed and a supersized median is kept with tons of green space. I mean don't get me wrong I love parks and green space but don't overdo it. It's important to allow development to generate income and activity for the city.
This article: https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2022/03/17/interstate-375-replacement-detroit-black-bottom-paradise-valley/7073405001/ plus on MDOT's website has a cross-section on what the configuration of the road will look like after construction.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 17, 2022, 02:47:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 17, 2022, 02:20:22 PM
Are the plans on what they'll do with the new space finalized or are they still being worked on? Because I'm not the biggest fan of this trend where a freeway is removed and a supersized median is kept with tons of green space. I mean don't get me wrong I love parks and green space but don't overdo it. It's important to allow development to generate income and activity for the city.
Total waste of money! Tiger Stadium was razed because supposedly the space was needed for development, and then they did absolutely nothing with it. It's Detroit. There's all kinds of space to build and absolutely no demand to build anything, other than the artificial demand dreamed up by governmental tyrants!
MDOT has stated this actually cost less that reconstructing I-375 to modern standards. The conversion of the Chrysler Freeway to a surface blvd is about $150 million. I forgot the amount (MDOT has it on the website of the various design options), but the plans to reconstruct I-375 cost more than conversion. Since the freeway is almost 60 years old, a full rebuild would be needed rather than resurfacing. This will also connect the road to the Detroit River (Atwater St), giving easier access to the riverfront.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 17, 2022, 02:47:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 17, 2022, 02:20:22 PM
Are the plans on what they'll do with the new space finalized or are they still being worked on? Because I'm not the biggest fan of this trend where a freeway is removed and a supersized median is kept with tons of green space. I mean don't get me wrong I love parks and green space but don't overdo it. It's important to allow development to generate income and activity for the city.
Total waste of money! Tiger Stadium was razed because supposedly the space was needed for development, and then they did absolutely nothing with it. It's Detroit. There's all kinds of space to build and absolutely no demand to build anything, other than the artificial demand dreamed up by governmental tyrants!
Tiger Stadium has been developed. It's not an empty lot.
I mean this right here is the corner of Michigan and Trumbull facing the old Tiger Stadium site.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3314182,-83.0669711,3a,75y,304.16h,90.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr-mdhjR_2UwBWEBue74hxA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Quote from: Henry on March 17, 2022, 10:27:55 AM
I could see the replacement become (Walter P.) Chrysler Blvd., as a complement to the freeway of the same name.
It will most likely be Hastings Street as a complement to the street that was there before and is still in the grid. Actually the SB service drive should be named Hastings Street. The NB service drive should be called Mansur Street.
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:23:20 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 17, 2022, 02:47:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 17, 2022, 02:20:22 PM
Are the plans on what they'll do with the new space finalized or are they still being worked on? Because I'm not the biggest fan of this trend where a freeway is removed and a supersized median is kept with tons of green space. I mean don't get me wrong I love parks and green space but don't overdo it. It's important to allow development to generate income and activity for the city.
Total waste of money! Tiger Stadium was razed because supposedly the space was needed for development, and then they did absolutely nothing with it. It's Detroit. There's all kinds of space to build and absolutely no demand to build anything, other than the artificial demand dreamed up by governmental tyrants!
Tiger Stadium has been developed. It's not an empty lot.
I mean this right here is the corner of Michigan and Trumbull facing the old Tiger Stadium site.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3314182,-83.0669711,3a,75y,304.16h,90.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr-mdhjR_2UwBWEBue74hxA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
That's news to me. Last I knew the field was still there and being used by high school teams. At any rate, it stood dormant for years and there was no reason to raze it. The development here could have happened almost anywhere else.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 17, 2022, 11:56:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:23:20 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 17, 2022, 02:47:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 17, 2022, 02:20:22 PM
Are the plans on what they'll do with the new space finalized or are they still being worked on? Because I'm not the biggest fan of this trend where a freeway is removed and a supersized median is kept with tons of green space. I mean don't get me wrong I love parks and green space but don't overdo it. It's important to allow development to generate income and activity for the city.
Total waste of money! Tiger Stadium was razed because supposedly the space was needed for development, and then they did absolutely nothing with it. It's Detroit. There's all kinds of space to build and absolutely no demand to build anything, other than the artificial demand dreamed up by governmental tyrants!
Tiger Stadium has been developed. It's not an empty lot.
I mean this right here is the corner of Michigan and Trumbull facing the old Tiger Stadium site.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3314182,-83.0669711,3a,75y,304.16h,90.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr-mdhjR_2UwBWEBue74hxA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
That's news to me. Last I knew the field was still there and being used by high school teams. At any rate, it stood dormant for years and there was no reason to raze it. The development here could have happened almost anywhere else.
What do you mean there was no reason to raze it? It was sitting empty and rotting and was never going to be used again. There was no reason to keep it standing.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 17, 2022, 11:56:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:23:20 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 17, 2022, 02:47:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 17, 2022, 02:20:22 PM
Are the plans on what they'll do with the new space finalized or are they still being worked on? Because I'm not the biggest fan of this trend where a freeway is removed and a supersized median is kept with tons of green space. I mean don't get me wrong I love parks and green space but don't overdo it. It's important to allow development to generate income and activity for the city.
Total waste of money! Tiger Stadium was razed because supposedly the space was needed for development, and then they did absolutely nothing with it. It's Detroit. There's all kinds of space to build and absolutely no demand to build anything, other than the artificial demand dreamed up by governmental tyrants!
Tiger Stadium has been developed. It's not an empty lot.
I mean this right here is the corner of Michigan and Trumbull facing the old Tiger Stadium site.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3314182,-83.0669711,3a,75y,304.16h,90.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr-mdhjR_2UwBWEBue74hxA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
That's news to me. Last I knew the field was still there and being used by high school teams. At any rate, it stood dormant for years and there was no reason to raze it. The development here could have happened almost anywhere else.
At least they did preserve the diamond, which is kind of a hard thing to do. Is there a plaque or any kind of marker that denotes the former location at all? And while we're on the subject of old Detroit sports venues, what about Pontiac and Auburn Hills?
Quote from: Henry on March 18, 2022, 10:59:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 17, 2022, 11:56:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:23:20 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 17, 2022, 02:47:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 17, 2022, 02:20:22 PM
Are the plans on what they'll do with the new space finalized or are they still being worked on? Because I'm not the biggest fan of this trend where a freeway is removed and a supersized median is kept with tons of green space. I mean don't get me wrong I love parks and green space but don't overdo it. It's important to allow development to generate income and activity for the city.
Total waste of money! Tiger Stadium was razed because supposedly the space was needed for development, and then they did absolutely nothing with it. It's Detroit. There's all kinds of space to build and absolutely no demand to build anything, other than the artificial demand dreamed up by governmental tyrants!
Tiger Stadium has been developed. It's not an empty lot.
I mean this right here is the corner of Michigan and Trumbull facing the old Tiger Stadium site.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3314182,-83.0669711,3a,75y,304.16h,90.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr-mdhjR_2UwBWEBue74hxA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
That's news to me. Last I knew the field was still there and being used by high school teams. At any rate, it stood dormant for years and there was no reason to raze it. The development here could have happened almost anywhere else.
At least they did preserve the diamond, which is kind of a hard thing to do. Is there a plaque or any kind of marker that denotes the former location at all? And while we're on the subject of old Detroit sports venues, what about Pontiac and Auburn Hills?
The Silverdome was torn down years ago. The Palace was demolished before the pandemic. Both teams, the Lions & the Pistons returned to the City of Detroit. On Woodward Ave in Lower Midtown & the Central Business District.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
To you maybe. Not to everyone. I love freeways I think a lot of them are beautiful pieces of engineering.
The location of the Silverdome is now an Amazon distribution warehouse.
Quote from: Henry on March 18, 2022, 10:59:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 17, 2022, 11:56:14 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:23:20 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 17, 2022, 02:47:32 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 17, 2022, 02:20:22 PM
Are the plans on what they'll do with the new space finalized or are they still being worked on? Because I'm not the biggest fan of this trend where a freeway is removed and a supersized median is kept with tons of green space. I mean don't get me wrong I love parks and green space but don't overdo it. It's important to allow development to generate income and activity for the city.
Total waste of money! Tiger Stadium was razed because supposedly the space was needed for development, and then they did absolutely nothing with it. It's Detroit. There's all kinds of space to build and absolutely no demand to build anything, other than the artificial demand dreamed up by governmental tyrants!
Tiger Stadium has been developed. It's not an empty lot.
I mean this right here is the corner of Michigan and Trumbull facing the old Tiger Stadium site.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3314182,-83.0669711,3a,75y,304.16h,90.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr-mdhjR_2UwBWEBue74hxA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
That's news to me. Last I knew the field was still there and being used by high school teams. At any rate, it stood dormant for years and there was no reason to raze it. The development here could have happened almost anywhere else.
At least they did preserve the diamond, which is kind of a hard thing to do. Is there a plaque or any kind of marker that denotes the former location at all? And while we're on the subject of old Detroit sports venues, what about Pontiac and Auburn Hills?
There might be but I haven't spent enough time around that part of Detroit lately to know. No there isn't any marker in Pontiac or Auburn Hills or Joe Louis, there is at the old Olympia though I do believe. Pontiac the site is now Amazon and Auburn Hills the site is an empty lot. All of Detroit's former sporting venues have been demolished.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 18, 2022, 02:22:24 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
To you maybe. Not to everyone. I love freeways I think a lot of them are beautiful pieces of engineering.
No it's not just to me it's to a lot of people. There is nothing good about a freeway cutting through neighborhoods of a major city. The only time they are good is when you want to get somewhere otherwise I'd rather take my time and go down an old US highway instead.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 04:11:59 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 18, 2022, 02:22:24 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
To you maybe. Not to everyone. I love freeways I think a lot of them are beautiful pieces of engineering.
No it's not just to me it's to a lot of people. There is nothing good about a freeway cutting through neighborhoods of a major city. The only time they are good is when you want to get somewhere otherwise I'd rather take my time and go down an old US highway instead.
There's also a lot of people that disagree with your premise as well.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 18, 2022, 04:20:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 04:11:59 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 18, 2022, 02:22:24 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
To you maybe. Not to everyone. I love freeways I think a lot of them are beautiful pieces of engineering.
No it's not just to me it's to a lot of people. There is nothing good about a freeway cutting through neighborhoods of a major city. The only time they are good is when you want to get somewhere otherwise I'd rather take my time and go down an old US highway instead.
There's also a lot of people that disagree with your premise as well.
They don't live in those neighborhoods
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 18, 2022, 04:20:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 04:11:59 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 18, 2022, 02:22:24 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
To you maybe. Not to everyone. I love freeways I think a lot of them are beautiful pieces of engineering.
No it's not just to me it's to a lot of people. There is nothing good about a freeway cutting through neighborhoods of a major city. The only time they are good is when you want to get somewhere otherwise I'd rather take my time and go down an old US highway instead.
There's also a lot of people that disagree with your premise as well.
Actually you'll find people that agree with it.
I'll give one example here and it's not far from I-375 at all only about a mile or so. That would be I-75 between I-96 and the Gratiot/I-375 exit. I-75 destroyed the North Corktown neighborhood, the section of land north of the old Tiger Stadium. Corktown is a pretty densely populated neighborhood with row houses in the blocks south of the old stadium. When I-75 was built it sliced right through Corktown and North Corktown separating the two neighborhoods. Vernor Highway is the street that was replaced in that part of town. There are plenty more examples and Detroit is a city where freeway revolts have taken place as well such as the Mound Road Freeway and the extension of the Davison Freeway. You will notice that the Davison Freeway doesn't go to the Jeffries Freeway as originally planned and doesn't go any further east to connect to the canceled Mound Road Freeway as well. All these freeways ruin cities slicing through them. Look at Boston with the Big Dig and the former Central Artery slicing downtown Boston in half, now the Big Dig is finally complete and the former Central Artery is now a greenway I believe but that is an example of what freeways do to major cities.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
Seriously? 99% of Detroit is an eyesore! But it is more attractive than Flint, so I guess I can see where you're coming from. :)
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 19, 2022, 12:10:59 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
Seriously? 99% of Detroit is an eyesore! But it is more attractive than Flint, so I guess I can see where you're coming from. :)
The freeways are part of what made it an eyesore, that and the 1967 riots. Where I-375 is at though would be much less of an eyesore if it was removed. I really never saw the need for I-375 south of the Lafayette exit it seems like almost everyone that uses it gets off at Madison or Lafayette, some traffic of course goes all the way to Jefferson but I bet the VPD count drops south of Lafayette. It does break up the city though.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 07:41:52 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 19, 2022, 12:10:59 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
Seriously? 99% of Detroit is an eyesore! But it is more attractive than Flint, so I guess I can see where you're coming from. :)
The freeways are part of what made it an eyesore, that and the 1967 riots. Where I-375 is at though would be much less of an eyesore if it was removed. I really never saw the need for I-375 south of the Lafayette exit it seems like almost everyone that uses it gets off at Madison or Lafayette, some traffic of course goes all the way to Jefferson but I bet the VPD count drops south of Lafayette. It does break up the city though.
The 1960s era riots are not even a memory to all but a very few much older people who are still alive. That is a big reason why central Detroit is becoming a *HOT* development area for today's younger crowd. Central Detroit has an incredible amount of close-in developable land, too. Some legacy freeways (like I-375) don't make a lot of sense to today's crowds and traffic patterns and they should be addressed for re-engineering for maximum utility all around. If it is best re-engineered into a major surface street, so be it.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on March 19, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 07:41:52 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 19, 2022, 12:10:59 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
Seriously? 99% of Detroit is an eyesore! But it is more attractive than Flint, so I guess I can see where you're coming from. :)
The freeways are part of what made it an eyesore, that and the 1967 riots. Where I-375 is at though would be much less of an eyesore if it was removed. I really never saw the need for I-375 south of the Lafayette exit it seems like almost everyone that uses it gets off at Madison or Lafayette, some traffic of course goes all the way to Jefferson but I bet the VPD count drops south of Lafayette. It does break up the city though.
The 1960s era riots are not even a memory to all but a very few much older people who are still alive. That is a big reason why central Detroit is becoming a *HOT* development area for today's younger crowd. Central Detroit has an incredible amount of close-in developable land, too. Some legacy freeways (like I-375) don't make a lot of sense to today's crowds and traffic patterns and they should be addressed for re-engineering for maximum utility all around. If it is best re-engineered into a major surface street, so be it.
Mike
The 1967 riots most certainly are a memory to a lot of people still around the Detroit area. Detroit has never recovered from the 67 riots and had been declining even before that which brings us to the fact that the vast freeway system did wonders to destroy the city, the 67 riots were the icing on the cake and white flight was rampant in the 70's and 80's but the suburbs kept growing that was mainly people moving from the city to the suburbs but also new people moving into the area as well. Detroit lost 25% of it's population between 2000 and 2010 which is pretty recent. There were still 1.6 million people living in Detroit in 1970, by 1990 it was just over a million. Right now Detroit is at about half of it's 1980 population. It is not a city that is growing, the decline might become more stable but the decline is still present. Downtown development has been a thing since Dennis Archer was the mayor, then Kwame Kilpatrick screwed the city up after Archer left office and now you have Mike Duggan who is a good guy and a good mayor for the city as the mayor and the last 10 years things have improved downtown but the rest of the city is still a mess. I have covered every single corner of the city of Detroit over the course of my lifetime. I have been for removing I-375 and for every freeway within the Grand Boulevard loop except for the mainline Interstate's (I-75, 94 and 96).
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 02:50:33 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on March 19, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 07:41:52 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 19, 2022, 12:10:59 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
Seriously? 99% of Detroit is an eyesore! But it is more attractive than Flint, so I guess I can see where you're coming from. :)
The freeways are part of what made it an eyesore, that and the 1967 riots. Where I-375 is at though would be much less of an eyesore if it was removed. I really never saw the need for I-375 south of the Lafayette exit it seems like almost everyone that uses it gets off at Madison or Lafayette, some traffic of course goes all the way to Jefferson but I bet the VPD count drops south of Lafayette. It does break up the city though.
The 1960s era riots are not even a memory to all but a very few much older people who are still alive. That is a big reason why central Detroit is becoming a *HOT* development area for today's younger crowd. Central Detroit has an incredible amount of close-in developable land, too. Some legacy freeways (like I-375) don't make a lot of sense to today's crowds and traffic patterns and they should be addressed for re-engineering for maximum utility all around. If it is best re-engineered into a major surface street, so be it.
Mike
The 1967 riots most certainly are a memory to a lot of people still around the Detroit area. Detroit has never recovered from the 67 riots and had been declining even before that which brings us to the fact that the vast freeway system did wonders to destroy the city, the 67 riots were the icing on the cake and white flight was rampant in the 70's and 80's but the suburbs kept growing that was mainly people moving from the city to the suburbs but also new people moving into the area as well. Detroit lost 25% of it's population between 2000 and 2010 which is pretty recent. There were still 1.6 million people living in Detroit in 1970, by 1990 it was just over a million. Right now Detroit is at about half of it's 1980 population. It is not a city that is growing, the decline might become more stable but the decline is still present. Downtown development has been a thing since Dennis Archer was the mayor, then Kwame Kilpatrick screwed the city up after Archer left office and now you have Mike Duggan who is a good guy and a good mayor for the city as the mayor and the last 10 years things have improved downtown but the rest of the city is still a mess. I have covered every single corner of the city of Detroit over the course of my lifetime. I have been for removing I-375 and for every freeway within the Grand Boulevard loop except for the mainline Interstate's (I-75, 94 and 96).
Psst...1967 was 55 years ago. Those that lived through it are dying off.
Just between me and my kids, you're seeing events becoming history taught rather than remembered. You're talking about riots that occurred when my parents were teenagers.
So, the idea that a lot if people remember the riots is becoming less true, if not false altogether.
As we age, we think of events 20 years ago as more recent than they are. 55 is two generations away...
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:17:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 02:50:33 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on March 19, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 07:41:52 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 19, 2022, 12:10:59 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
Seriously? 99% of Detroit is an eyesore! But it is more attractive than Flint, so I guess I can see where you're coming from. :)
The freeways are part of what made it an eyesore, that and the 1967 riots. Where I-375 is at though would be much less of an eyesore if it was removed. I really never saw the need for I-375 south of the Lafayette exit it seems like almost everyone that uses it gets off at Madison or Lafayette, some traffic of course goes all the way to Jefferson but I bet the VPD count drops south of Lafayette. It does break up the city though.
The 1960s era riots are not even a memory to all but a very few much older people who are still alive. That is a big reason why central Detroit is becoming a *HOT* development area for today's younger crowd. Central Detroit has an incredible amount of close-in developable land, too. Some legacy freeways (like I-375) don't make a lot of sense to today's crowds and traffic patterns and they should be addressed for re-engineering for maximum utility all around. If it is best re-engineered into a major surface street, so be it.
Mike
The 1967 riots most certainly are a memory to a lot of people still around the Detroit area. Detroit has never recovered from the 67 riots and had been declining even before that which brings us to the fact that the vast freeway system did wonders to destroy the city, the 67 riots were the icing on the cake and white flight was rampant in the 70's and 80's but the suburbs kept growing that was mainly people moving from the city to the suburbs but also new people moving into the area as well. Detroit lost 25% of it's population between 2000 and 2010 which is pretty recent. There were still 1.6 million people living in Detroit in 1970, by 1990 it was just over a million. Right now Detroit is at about half of it's 1980 population. It is not a city that is growing, the decline might become more stable but the decline is still present. Downtown development has been a thing since Dennis Archer was the mayor, then Kwame Kilpatrick screwed the city up after Archer left office and now you have Mike Duggan who is a good guy and a good mayor for the city as the mayor and the last 10 years things have improved downtown but the rest of the city is still a mess. I have covered every single corner of the city of Detroit over the course of my lifetime. I have been for removing I-375 and for every freeway within the Grand Boulevard loop except for the mainline Interstate's (I-75, 94 and 96).
Psst...1967 was 55 years ago. Those that lived through it are dying off.
Just between me and my kids, you're seeing events becoming history taught rather than remembered. You're talking about riots that occurred when my parents were teenagers.
So, the idea that a lot if people remember the riots is becoming less true, if not false altogether.
As we age, we think of events 20 years ago as more recent than they are. 55 is two generations away...
The whole point is that Detroit has never recovered from riots that happened 55 years ago. All Detroit has been doing my entire life is becoming less and less populated. It's also one of the most crime ridden cities in America. This is a city of 139 square miles and there are about 136 of those 139 square miles that nobody wants to hang out in. It is not false that Detroit is still suffering from the riots.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 03:50:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:17:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 02:50:33 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on March 19, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 07:41:52 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 19, 2022, 12:10:59 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
Seriously? 99% of Detroit is an eyesore! But it is more attractive than Flint, so I guess I can see where you're coming from. :)
The freeways are part of what made it an eyesore, that and the 1967 riots. Where I-375 is at though would be much less of an eyesore if it was removed. I really never saw the need for I-375 south of the Lafayette exit it seems like almost everyone that uses it gets off at Madison or Lafayette, some traffic of course goes all the way to Jefferson but I bet the VPD count drops south of Lafayette. It does break up the city though.
The 1960s era riots are not even a memory to all but a very few much older people who are still alive. That is a big reason why central Detroit is becoming a *HOT* development area for today's younger crowd. Central Detroit has an incredible amount of close-in developable land, too. Some legacy freeways (like I-375) don't make a lot of sense to today's crowds and traffic patterns and they should be addressed for re-engineering for maximum utility all around. If it is best re-engineered into a major surface street, so be it.
Mike
The 1967 riots most certainly are a memory to a lot of people still around the Detroit area. Detroit has never recovered from the 67 riots and had been declining even before that which brings us to the fact that the vast freeway system did wonders to destroy the city, the 67 riots were the icing on the cake and white flight was rampant in the 70's and 80's but the suburbs kept growing that was mainly people moving from the city to the suburbs but also new people moving into the area as well. Detroit lost 25% of it's population between 2000 and 2010 which is pretty recent. There were still 1.6 million people living in Detroit in 1970, by 1990 it was just over a million. Right now Detroit is at about half of it's 1980 population. It is not a city that is growing, the decline might become more stable but the decline is still present. Downtown development has been a thing since Dennis Archer was the mayor, then Kwame Kilpatrick screwed the city up after Archer left office and now you have Mike Duggan who is a good guy and a good mayor for the city as the mayor and the last 10 years things have improved downtown but the rest of the city is still a mess. I have covered every single corner of the city of Detroit over the course of my lifetime. I have been for removing I-375 and for every freeway within the Grand Boulevard loop except for the mainline Interstate's (I-75, 94 and 96).
Psst...1967 was 55 years ago. Those that lived through it are dying off.
Just between me and my kids, you're seeing events becoming history taught rather than remembered. You're talking about riots that occurred when my parents were teenagers.
So, the idea that a lot if people remember the riots is becoming less true, if not false altogether.
As we age, we think of events 20 years ago as more recent than they are. 55 is two generations away...
The whole point is that Detroit has never recovered from riots that happened 55 years ago. All Detroit has been doing my entire life is becoming less and less populated. It's also one of the most crime ridden cities in America. This is a city of 139 square miles and there are about 136 of those 139 square miles that nobody wants to hang out in. It is not false that Detroit is still suffering from the riots.
I don't think the riots were why industry bolted from Detroit.
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:51:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 03:50:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:17:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 02:50:33 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on March 19, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 07:41:52 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 19, 2022, 12:10:59 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
Seriously? 99% of Detroit is an eyesore! But it is more attractive than Flint, so I guess I can see where you're coming from. :)
The freeways are part of what made it an eyesore, that and the 1967 riots. Where I-375 is at though would be much less of an eyesore if it was removed. I really never saw the need for I-375 south of the Lafayette exit it seems like almost everyone that uses it gets off at Madison or Lafayette, some traffic of course goes all the way to Jefferson but I bet the VPD count drops south of Lafayette. It does break up the city though.
The 1960s era riots are not even a memory to all but a very few much older people who are still alive. That is a big reason why central Detroit is becoming a *HOT* development area for today's younger crowd. Central Detroit has an incredible amount of close-in developable land, too. Some legacy freeways (like I-375) don't make a lot of sense to today's crowds and traffic patterns and they should be addressed for re-engineering for maximum utility all around. If it is best re-engineered into a major surface street, so be it.
Mike
The 1967 riots most certainly are a memory to a lot of people still around the Detroit area. Detroit has never recovered from the 67 riots and had been declining even before that which brings us to the fact that the vast freeway system did wonders to destroy the city, the 67 riots were the icing on the cake and white flight was rampant in the 70's and 80's but the suburbs kept growing that was mainly people moving from the city to the suburbs but also new people moving into the area as well. Detroit lost 25% of it's population between 2000 and 2010 which is pretty recent. There were still 1.6 million people living in Detroit in 1970, by 1990 it was just over a million. Right now Detroit is at about half of it's 1980 population. It is not a city that is growing, the decline might become more stable but the decline is still present. Downtown development has been a thing since Dennis Archer was the mayor, then Kwame Kilpatrick screwed the city up after Archer left office and now you have Mike Duggan who is a good guy and a good mayor for the city as the mayor and the last 10 years things have improved downtown but the rest of the city is still a mess. I have covered every single corner of the city of Detroit over the course of my lifetime. I have been for removing I-375 and for every freeway within the Grand Boulevard loop except for the mainline Interstate's (I-75, 94 and 96).
Psst...1967 was 55 years ago. Those that lived through it are dying off.
Just between me and my kids, you're seeing events becoming history taught rather than remembered. You're talking about riots that occurred when my parents were teenagers.
So, the idea that a lot if people remember the riots is becoming less true, if not false altogether.
As we age, we think of events 20 years ago as more recent than they are. 55 is two generations away...
The whole point is that Detroit has never recovered from riots that happened 55 years ago. All Detroit has been doing my entire life is becoming less and less populated. It's also one of the most crime ridden cities in America. This is a city of 139 square miles and there are about 136 of those 139 square miles that nobody wants to hang out in. It is not false that Detroit is still suffering from the riots.
I don't think the riots were why industry bolted from Detroit.
The riots were a major part of why people bolted from Detroit.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 03:53:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:51:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 03:50:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:17:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 02:50:33 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on March 19, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 07:41:52 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 19, 2022, 12:10:59 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
Seriously? 99% of Detroit is an eyesore! But it is more attractive than Flint, so I guess I can see where you're coming from. :)
The freeways are part of what made it an eyesore, that and the 1967 riots. Where I-375 is at though would be much less of an eyesore if it was removed. I really never saw the need for I-375 south of the Lafayette exit it seems like almost everyone that uses it gets off at Madison or Lafayette, some traffic of course goes all the way to Jefferson but I bet the VPD count drops south of Lafayette. It does break up the city though.
The 1960s era riots are not even a memory to all but a very few much older people who are still alive. That is a big reason why central Detroit is becoming a *HOT* development area for today's younger crowd. Central Detroit has an incredible amount of close-in developable land, too. Some legacy freeways (like I-375) don't make a lot of sense to today's crowds and traffic patterns and they should be addressed for re-engineering for maximum utility all around. If it is best re-engineered into a major surface street, so be it.
Mike
The 1967 riots most certainly are a memory to a lot of people still around the Detroit area. Detroit has never recovered from the 67 riots and had been declining even before that which brings us to the fact that the vast freeway system did wonders to destroy the city, the 67 riots were the icing on the cake and white flight was rampant in the 70's and 80's but the suburbs kept growing that was mainly people moving from the city to the suburbs but also new people moving into the area as well. Detroit lost 25% of it's population between 2000 and 2010 which is pretty recent. There were still 1.6 million people living in Detroit in 1970, by 1990 it was just over a million. Right now Detroit is at about half of it's 1980 population. It is not a city that is growing, the decline might become more stable but the decline is still present. Downtown development has been a thing since Dennis Archer was the mayor, then Kwame Kilpatrick screwed the city up after Archer left office and now you have Mike Duggan who is a good guy and a good mayor for the city as the mayor and the last 10 years things have improved downtown but the rest of the city is still a mess. I have covered every single corner of the city of Detroit over the course of my lifetime. I have been for removing I-375 and for every freeway within the Grand Boulevard loop except for the mainline Interstate's (I-75, 94 and 96).
Psst...1967 was 55 years ago. Those that lived through it are dying off.
Just between me and my kids, you're seeing events becoming history taught rather than remembered. You're talking about riots that occurred when my parents were teenagers.
So, the idea that a lot if people remember the riots is becoming less true, if not false altogether.
As we age, we think of events 20 years ago as more recent than they are. 55 is two generations away...
The whole point is that Detroit has never recovered from riots that happened 55 years ago. All Detroit has been doing my entire life is becoming less and less populated. It's also one of the most crime ridden cities in America. This is a city of 139 square miles and there are about 136 of those 139 square miles that nobody wants to hang out in. It is not false that Detroit is still suffering from the riots.
I don't think the riots were why industry bolted from Detroit.
The riots were a major part of why people bolted from Detroit.
Meh. Show me a better multivariate analysis on this claim.
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:54:12 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 03:53:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:51:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 03:50:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:17:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 02:50:33 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on March 19, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 07:41:52 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 19, 2022, 12:10:59 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
Seriously? 99% of Detroit is an eyesore! But it is more attractive than Flint, so I guess I can see where you're coming from. :)
The freeways are part of what made it an eyesore, that and the 1967 riots. Where I-375 is at though would be much less of an eyesore if it was removed. I really never saw the need for I-375 south of the Lafayette exit it seems like almost everyone that uses it gets off at Madison or Lafayette, some traffic of course goes all the way to Jefferson but I bet the VPD count drops south of Lafayette. It does break up the city though.
The 1960s era riots are not even a memory to all but a very few much older people who are still alive. That is a big reason why central Detroit is becoming a *HOT* development area for today's younger crowd. Central Detroit has an incredible amount of close-in developable land, too. Some legacy freeways (like I-375) don't make a lot of sense to today's crowds and traffic patterns and they should be addressed for re-engineering for maximum utility all around. If it is best re-engineered into a major surface street, so be it.
Mike
The 1967 riots most certainly are a memory to a lot of people still around the Detroit area. Detroit has never recovered from the 67 riots and had been declining even before that which brings us to the fact that the vast freeway system did wonders to destroy the city, the 67 riots were the icing on the cake and white flight was rampant in the 70's and 80's but the suburbs kept growing that was mainly people moving from the city to the suburbs but also new people moving into the area as well. Detroit lost 25% of it's population between 2000 and 2010 which is pretty recent. There were still 1.6 million people living in Detroit in 1970, by 1990 it was just over a million. Right now Detroit is at about half of it's 1980 population. It is not a city that is growing, the decline might become more stable but the decline is still present. Downtown development has been a thing since Dennis Archer was the mayor, then Kwame Kilpatrick screwed the city up after Archer left office and now you have Mike Duggan who is a good guy and a good mayor for the city as the mayor and the last 10 years things have improved downtown but the rest of the city is still a mess. I have covered every single corner of the city of Detroit over the course of my lifetime. I have been for removing I-375 and for every freeway within the Grand Boulevard loop except for the mainline Interstate's (I-75, 94 and 96).
Psst...1967 was 55 years ago. Those that lived through it are dying off.
Just between me and my kids, you're seeing events becoming history taught rather than remembered. You're talking about riots that occurred when my parents were teenagers.
So, the idea that a lot if people remember the riots is becoming less true, if not false altogether.
As we age, we think of events 20 years ago as more recent than they are. 55 is two generations away...
The whole point is that Detroit has never recovered from riots that happened 55 years ago. All Detroit has been doing my entire life is becoming less and less populated. It's also one of the most crime ridden cities in America. This is a city of 139 square miles and there are about 136 of those 139 square miles that nobody wants to hang out in. It is not false that Detroit is still suffering from the riots.
I don't think the riots were why industry bolted from Detroit.
The riots were a major part of why people bolted from Detroit.
Meh. Show me a better multivariate analysis on this claim.
There were a LOT of factors in the mid-late 20th century declines of Detroit and many other cities in Michigan. The 'legacy' (pre=WWII) city was heavily developed as detached single family residential away from the commercial and industrial parts, with precious little multi family (Did this pre-WWII development pattern have a racial motive?) mixed in. the market for detached 1f residential in the city collapsed after that. shortly after WWII ended, the Michigan legislature passed/governor signed the Charter Townships Act' pretty much slamming the annexation door on cities statewide (the Cities of Iron Mountain and Marquette, MI are surrounded by charter townships, for God's sake...). Also in the 1960s, federal judges ordering cross-town school busing for desegregation drove uncounted additional numbers of families from the city into its suburbs, etc.
Detroit was the eye of a 'perfect storm' of all of the worst that the 20th century wrecked upon USA cities. not just in Michigan, but nationwide.
Mike.
Quote from: mgk920 on March 19, 2022, 04:44:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:54:12 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 03:53:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:51:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 03:50:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:17:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 02:50:33 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on March 19, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 07:41:52 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 19, 2022, 12:10:59 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
Seriously? 99% of Detroit is an eyesore! But it is more attractive than Flint, so I guess I can see where you're coming from. :)
The freeways are part of what made it an eyesore, that and the 1967 riots. Where I-375 is at though would be much less of an eyesore if it was removed. I really never saw the need for I-375 south of the Lafayette exit it seems like almost everyone that uses it gets off at Madison or Lafayette, some traffic of course goes all the way to Jefferson but I bet the VPD count drops south of Lafayette. It does break up the city though.
The 1960s era riots are not even a memory to all but a very few much older people who are still alive. That is a big reason why central Detroit is becoming a *HOT* development area for today's younger crowd. Central Detroit has an incredible amount of close-in developable land, too. Some legacy freeways (like I-375) don't make a lot of sense to today's crowds and traffic patterns and they should be addressed for re-engineering for maximum utility all around. If it is best re-engineered into a major surface street, so be it.
Mike
The 1967 riots most certainly are a memory to a lot of people still around the Detroit area. Detroit has never recovered from the 67 riots and had been declining even before that which brings us to the fact that the vast freeway system did wonders to destroy the city, the 67 riots were the icing on the cake and white flight was rampant in the 70's and 80's but the suburbs kept growing that was mainly people moving from the city to the suburbs but also new people moving into the area as well. Detroit lost 25% of it's population between 2000 and 2010 which is pretty recent. There were still 1.6 million people living in Detroit in 1970, by 1990 it was just over a million. Right now Detroit is at about half of it's 1980 population. It is not a city that is growing, the decline might become more stable but the decline is still present. Downtown development has been a thing since Dennis Archer was the mayor, then Kwame Kilpatrick screwed the city up after Archer left office and now you have Mike Duggan who is a good guy and a good mayor for the city as the mayor and the last 10 years things have improved downtown but the rest of the city is still a mess. I have covered every single corner of the city of Detroit over the course of my lifetime. I have been for removing I-375 and for every freeway within the Grand Boulevard loop except for the mainline Interstate's (I-75, 94 and 96).
Psst...1967 was 55 years ago. Those that lived through it are dying off.
Just between me and my kids, you're seeing events becoming history taught rather than remembered. You're talking about riots that occurred when my parents were teenagers.
So, the idea that a lot if people remember the riots is becoming less true, if not false altogether.
As we age, we think of events 20 years ago as more recent than they are. 55 is two generations away...
The whole point is that Detroit has never recovered from riots that happened 55 years ago. All Detroit has been doing my entire life is becoming less and less populated. It's also one of the most crime ridden cities in America. This is a city of 139 square miles and there are about 136 of those 139 square miles that nobody wants to hang out in. It is not false that Detroit is still suffering from the riots.
I don't think the riots were why industry bolted from Detroit.
The riots were a major part of why people bolted from Detroit.
Meh. Show me a better multivariate analysis on this claim.
There were a LOT of factors in the mid-late 20th century declines of Detroit and many other cities in Michigan. The 'legacy' (pre=WWII) city was heavily developed as detached single family residential away from the commercial and industrial parts, with precious little multi family (Did this pre-WWII development pattern have a racial motive?) mixed in. the market for detached 1f residential in the city collapsed after that. shortly after WWII ended, the Michigan legislature passed/governor signed the Charter Townships Act' pretty much slamming the annexation door on cities statewide (the Cities of Iron Mountain and Marquette, MI are surrounded by charter townships, for God's sake...). Also in the 1960s, federal judges ordering cross-town school busing for desegregation drove uncounted additional numbers of families from the city into its suburbs, etc.
Detroit was the eye of a 'perfect storm' of all of the worst that the 20th century wrecked upon USA cities. not just in Michigan, but nationwide.
Mike.
After it tore through a black neighborhood the mayor ordered NO MORE HIGHWAY PROJECTS FOR DETROIT!
Quote from: mgk920 on March 19, 2022, 04:44:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:54:12 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 03:53:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:51:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 03:50:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:17:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 02:50:33 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on March 19, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 07:41:52 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 19, 2022, 12:10:59 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
Seriously? 99% of Detroit is an eyesore! But it is more attractive than Flint, so I guess I can see where you're coming from. :)
The freeways are part of what made it an eyesore, that and the 1967 riots. Where I-375 is at though would be much less of an eyesore if it was removed. I really never saw the need for I-375 south of the Lafayette exit it seems like almost everyone that uses it gets off at Madison or Lafayette, some traffic of course goes all the way to Jefferson but I bet the VPD count drops south of Lafayette. It does break up the city though.
The 1960s era riots are not even a memory to all but a very few much older people who are still alive. That is a big reason why central Detroit is becoming a *HOT* development area for today's younger crowd. Central Detroit has an incredible amount of close-in developable land, too. Some legacy freeways (like I-375) don't make a lot of sense to today's crowds and traffic patterns and they should be addressed for re-engineering for maximum utility all around. If it is best re-engineered into a major surface street, so be it.
Mike
The 1967 riots most certainly are a memory to a lot of people still around the Detroit area. Detroit has never recovered from the 67 riots and had been declining even before that which brings us to the fact that the vast freeway system did wonders to destroy the city, the 67 riots were the icing on the cake and white flight was rampant in the 70's and 80's but the suburbs kept growing that was mainly people moving from the city to the suburbs but also new people moving into the area as well. Detroit lost 25% of it's population between 2000 and 2010 which is pretty recent. There were still 1.6 million people living in Detroit in 1970, by 1990 it was just over a million. Right now Detroit is at about half of it's 1980 population. It is not a city that is growing, the decline might become more stable but the decline is still present. Downtown development has been a thing since Dennis Archer was the mayor, then Kwame Kilpatrick screwed the city up after Archer left office and now you have Mike Duggan who is a good guy and a good mayor for the city as the mayor and the last 10 years things have improved downtown but the rest of the city is still a mess. I have covered every single corner of the city of Detroit over the course of my lifetime. I have been for removing I-375 and for every freeway within the Grand Boulevard loop except for the mainline Interstate's (I-75, 94 and 96).
Psst...1967 was 55 years ago. Those that lived through it are dying off.
Just between me and my kids, you're seeing events becoming history taught rather than remembered. You're talking about riots that occurred when my parents were teenagers.
So, the idea that a lot if people remember the riots is becoming less true, if not false altogether.
As we age, we think of events 20 years ago as more recent than they are. 55 is two generations away...
The whole point is that Detroit has never recovered from riots that happened 55 years ago. All Detroit has been doing my entire life is becoming less and less populated. It's also one of the most crime ridden cities in America. This is a city of 139 square miles and there are about 136 of those 139 square miles that nobody wants to hang out in. It is not false that Detroit is still suffering from the riots.
I don't think the riots were why industry bolted from Detroit.
The riots were a major part of why people bolted from Detroit.
Meh. Show me a better multivariate analysis on this claim.
There were a LOT of factors in the mid-late 20th century declines of Detroit and many other cities in Michigan. The 'legacy' (pre=WWII) city was heavily developed as detached single family residential away from the commercial and industrial parts, with precious little multi family (Did this pre-WWII development pattern have a racial motive?) mixed in. the market for detached 1f residential in the city collapsed after that. shortly after WWII ended, the Michigan legislature passed/governor signed the Charter Townships Act' pretty much slamming the annexation door on cities statewide (the Cities of Iron Mountain and Marquette, MI are surrounded by charter townships, for God's sake...). Also in the 1960s, federal judges ordering cross-town school busing for desegregation drove uncounted additional numbers of families from the city into its suburbs, etc.
Detroit was the eye of a 'perfect storm' of all of the worst that the 20th century wrecked upon USA cities. not just in Michigan, but nationwide.
Mike.
Desegregation was bad?
Quote from: mgk920 on March 19, 2022, 04:44:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:54:12 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 03:53:11 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:51:46 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 03:50:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 19, 2022, 03:17:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 02:50:33 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on March 19, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 19, 2022, 07:41:52 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 19, 2022, 12:10:59 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 18, 2022, 06:05:30 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 18, 2022, 12:12:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 17, 2022, 03:37:32 PM
They say it's a barrier separating development downtown from growth in Lafayette Park. Lafayette Park is set back from where I-375 is and the part of downtown that borders I-375 isn't really as developed as one might think. I'm not saying that I'm against this though I'm in favor of getting rid of I-375 it's an eyesore and doesn't really serve that much traffic that it needs to be a freeway.
What is such an eyesore about it? It certainly isn't any more of an eyesore than the other Detroit Freeways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu5GhjBi9N4
All freeways are eyesores. They do wonders to break up development and neighborhoods.
Seriously? 99% of Detroit is an eyesore! But it is more attractive than Flint, so I guess I can see where you're coming from. :)
The freeways are part of what made it an eyesore, that and the 1967 riots. Where I-375 is at though would be much less of an eyesore if it was removed. I really never saw the need for I-375 south of the Lafayette exit it seems like almost everyone that uses it gets off at Madison or Lafayette, some traffic of course goes all the way to Jefferson but I bet the VPD count drops south of Lafayette. It does break up the city though.
The 1960s era riots are not even a memory to all but a very few much older people who are still alive. That is a big reason why central Detroit is becoming a *HOT* development area for today's younger crowd. Central Detroit has an incredible amount of close-in developable land, too. Some legacy freeways (like I-375) don't make a lot of sense to today's crowds and traffic patterns and they should be addressed for re-engineering for maximum utility all around. If it is best re-engineered into a major surface street, so be it.
Mike
The 1967 riots most certainly are a memory to a lot of people still around the Detroit area. Detroit has never recovered from the 67 riots and had been declining even before that which brings us to the fact that the vast freeway system did wonders to destroy the city, the 67 riots were the icing on the cake and white flight was rampant in the 70's and 80's but the suburbs kept growing that was mainly people moving from the city to the suburbs but also new people moving into the area as well. Detroit lost 25% of it's population between 2000 and 2010 which is pretty recent. There were still 1.6 million people living in Detroit in 1970, by 1990 it was just over a million. Right now Detroit is at about half of it's 1980 population. It is not a city that is growing, the decline might become more stable but the decline is still present. Downtown development has been a thing since Dennis Archer was the mayor, then Kwame Kilpatrick screwed the city up after Archer left office and now you have Mike Duggan who is a good guy and a good mayor for the city as the mayor and the last 10 years things have improved downtown but the rest of the city is still a mess. I have covered every single corner of the city of Detroit over the course of my lifetime. I have been for removing I-375 and for every freeway within the Grand Boulevard loop except for the mainline Interstate's (I-75, 94 and 96).
Psst...1967 was 55 years ago. Those that lived through it are dying off.
Just between me and my kids, you're seeing events becoming history taught rather than remembered. You're talking about riots that occurred when my parents were teenagers.
So, the idea that a lot if people remember the riots is becoming less true, if not false altogether.
As we age, we think of events 20 years ago as more recent than they are. 55 is two generations away...
The whole point is that Detroit has never recovered from riots that happened 55 years ago. All Detroit has been doing my entire life is becoming less and less populated. It's also one of the most crime ridden cities in America. This is a city of 139 square miles and there are about 136 of those 139 square miles that nobody wants to hang out in. It is not false that Detroit is still suffering from the riots.
I don't think the riots were why industry bolted from Detroit.
The riots were a major part of why people bolted from Detroit.
Meh. Show me a better multivariate analysis on this claim.
There were a LOT of factors in the mid-late 20th century declines of Detroit and many other cities in Michigan. The 'legacy' (pre=WWII) city was heavily developed as detached single family residential away from the commercial and industrial parts, with precious little multi family (Did this pre-WWII development pattern have a racial motive?) mixed in. the market for detached 1f residential in the city collapsed after that. shortly after WWII ended, the Michigan legislature passed/governor signed the Charter Townships Act' pretty much slamming the annexation door on cities statewide (the Cities of Iron Mountain and Marquette, MI are surrounded by charter townships, for God's sake...). Also in the 1960s, federal judges ordering cross-town school busing for desegregation drove uncounted additional numbers of families from the city into its suburbs, etc.
Detroit was the eye of a 'perfect storm' of all of the worst that the 20th century wrecked upon USA cities. not just in Michigan, but nationwide.
Mike.
You did a pretty good job of summing it up. I live in Saginaw Township which is a charter township (there are civil townships as well) it is bordered by the city of Saginaw which can't expand because of the reason that you mentioned with cities like Iron Mountain and Marquette. And like Detroit it's surrounded by cities and charter townships so it can't expand past it's 139 square miles. For a good laugh check out Novi Township which is totally surrounded by the city of Novi and only 0.11 square miles.
Also I-96 was supposed to follow Grand River Avenue out to Farmington Hills. The part of M-5 where it's a freeway was supposed to be part of this and follow Grand River all the way into Detroit. When this got canceled it was moved to follow the current alignment along Schoolcraft Road and because of this crosses Grand River Avenue twice. Also canceled were the Mound Road Freeway and the extension of the Davison which I believe I mentioned in an earlier post.
I approve of the freeways being canceled and potentially removed especially closer to downtown. I'd love a Detroit with no freeways within the Grand Boulevard loop. I have a thread about what i would do to Detroit https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=23250.msg2395256#msg2395256
Your fictional proposal (this can be moved to a fictional thread) has a major issue with truck traffic and both the Ambassador and Gordie Howe Bridges. Removing interstate connections in the Central Business District would introduce an unbelievable amount of truck traffic to the busiest land crossing in North America. You would need to create a system to reroute that truck traffic without disrupting the border crossing delays or the city traffic those trucks would produce.
Yeah these conversations about removing urban freeways are idiotic. 375 is one that needs be removed and that's what this thread is about. Detroit will be better once this project is completed and hopefully new development pops up.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 21, 2022, 12:40:51 PM
Yeah these conversations about removing urban freeways are idiotic. 375 is one that needs be removed and that's what this thread is about. Detroit will be better once this project is completed and hopefully new development pops up.
You have a free flowing freeway from I-75 to the riverfront. So let's spend, er uh, waste millions of taxpayer dollars putting in a boulevard that takes up the exact same space, and will no doubt add traffic signals and traffic tie-ups, no doubt adding to the traffic tie-ups and backups already along I-75 and adjacent streets. Going to a Tigers or Lions game should really be a load of fun getting tied up in traffic and looking for unreasonably priced parking.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 21, 2022, 11:16:42 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 21, 2022, 12:40:51 PM
Yeah these conversations about removing urban freeways are idiotic. 375 is one that needs be removed and that's what this thread is about. Detroit will be better once this project is completed and hopefully new development pops up.
You have a free flowing freeway from I-75 to the riverfront. So let's spend, er uh, waste millions of taxpayer dollars putting in a boulevard that takes up the exact same space, and will no doubt add traffic signals and traffic tie-ups, no doubt adding to the traffic tie-ups and backups already along I-75 and adjacent streets. Going to a Tigers or Lions game should really be a load of fun getting tied up in traffic and looking for unreasonably priced parking.
That's what I'm trying to figure out if this proposal will free up real estate which seems like it will.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 21, 2022, 11:22:27 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 21, 2022, 11:16:42 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 21, 2022, 12:40:51 PM
Yeah these conversations about removing urban freeways are idiotic. 375 is one that needs be removed and that's what this thread is about. Detroit will be better once this project is completed and hopefully new development pops up.
You have a free flowing freeway from I-75 to the riverfront. So let's spend, er uh, waste millions of taxpayer dollars putting in a boulevard that takes up the exact same space, and will no doubt add traffic signals and traffic tie-ups, no doubt adding to the traffic tie-ups and backups already along I-75 and adjacent streets. Going to a Tigers or Lions game should really be a load of fun getting tied up in traffic and looking for unreasonably priced parking.
That's what I'm trying to figure out if this proposal will free up real estate which seems like it will.
How so? A boulevard still has a median. And probably Michigan lefts, roundabouts or some other space wasting "traffic controls."
The way this should be done is making the service drives the street and in the middle developing it. Like the middle of the current freeway would be where development should go not a wide boulevard.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 21, 2022, 11:22:27 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 21, 2022, 11:16:42 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 21, 2022, 12:40:51 PM
Yeah these conversations about removing urban freeways are idiotic. 375 is one that needs be removed and that's what this thread is about. Detroit will be better once this project is completed and hopefully new development pops up.
You have a free flowing freeway from I-75 to the riverfront. So let's spend, er uh, waste millions of taxpayer dollars putting in a boulevard that takes up the exact same space, and will no doubt add traffic signals and traffic tie-ups, no doubt adding to the traffic tie-ups and backups already along I-75 and adjacent streets. Going to a Tigers or Lions game should really be a load of fun getting tied up in traffic and looking for unreasonably priced parking.
That's what I'm trying to figure out if this proposal will free up real estate which seems like it will.
Honestly it's not that Detroit needs real estate freed up but it's a connection thing. I-375 separates downtown from everything east of downtown. Take like Monroe Street which ends at the NB service drive and then there is nothing over there. I'm rather excited to see what will happen but Detroit's downtown isn't in demand for more space when you have several parking lots that could be developed into buildings. Look at the area behind the Fox Theatre all the way to Grand River for a good example of that.
Then you have that huge parking lot east of the RenCen that has nothing on it other than parking spaces. I mean just look at this. Build a damn parking garage instead and develop this area.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3300552,-83.03593,286m/data=!3m1!1e3
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 21, 2022, 11:16:42 PM
You have a free flowing freeway from I-75 to the riverfront. So let's spend, er uh, waste millions of taxpayer dollars putting in a boulevard that takes up the exact same space, and will no doubt add traffic signals and traffic tie-ups, no doubt adding to the traffic tie-ups and backups already along I-75 and adjacent streets. Going to a Tigers or Lions game should really be a load of fun getting tied up in traffic and looking for unreasonably priced parking.
The freeway needs to be replaced, one way or the other. The pavement is bad; bridges are crumbling and being held up with "temporary" props. As has been noted previously here, it's been determined that rebuilding the freeway as-is will cost more than removing it and putting in a boulevard.
There is also a perception, whether psychological or practical reality, that the freeway divides the city. A lot of people still remember the destruction of the Black Bottom community to build it and they want to see it go away. That community can never be replaced (and whatever new development that may come about is unknown) but removing the freeway may bring some closure. Scoff if you want, but that's part of "quality of life" and is worth something.
Your comments about traffic tie-ups make no sense. Currently one has to exit the freeway to surface streets at some point. Traffic tie-ups won't be any worse than they already are unless traffic volume increases. And your totally irrelevant "unreasonably priced parking" comment shows that you're really reaching.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 22, 2022, 09:17:44 AM
... Detroit's downtown isn't in demand for more space when you have several parking lots that could be developed into buildings. Look at the area behind the Fox Theatre all the way to Grand River for a good example of that.
Actually, not the best example. Those lots are filled for events at the Fox Theatre/LC Arena/Comerica Park/Ford Field. Whether replacing the lots with vertical parking garages is a worthwhile investment is another discussion.
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 21, 2022, 11:16:42 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 21, 2022, 12:40:51 PM
Yeah these conversations about removing urban freeways are idiotic. 375 is one that needs be removed and that's what this thread is about. Detroit will be better once this project is completed and hopefully new development pops up.
You have a free flowing freeway from I-75 to the riverfront. So let's spend, er uh, waste millions of taxpayer dollars putting in a boulevard that takes up the exact same space, and will no doubt add traffic signals and traffic tie-ups, no doubt adding to the traffic tie-ups and backups already along I-75 and adjacent streets. Going to a Tigers or Lions game should really be a load of fun getting tied up in traffic and looking for unreasonably priced parking.
I suggest you compare this project to what happened after Milwaukee removed the Park Freeway (http://www.wisconsinhighways.org/milwaukee/park.html). The area around the old stub of a freeway (not unlike I-375 though the Park was expected to continue further east) was a dump of decrepit buildings and empty parking lots around a highway which took up a huge amount of land for very little traffic or any other benefit. It's now a hub in central Milwaukee's revival, commonly called the Deer District (https://deerdistrict.com/); you might have seen it during the Bucks NBA championship run.
I don't agree with all freeway removals but this one makes sense. Activists in the Bay Area want to remove I-980 in Oakland (https://www.cnu.org/highways-boulevards/campaign-cities/oakland-980) using what can only be called underwear gnome logic (https://observer.com/2016/01/the-cautionary-tale-of-south-parks-underpants-gnomes/). The urbanists against I-345 in Dallas (https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2021/04/a-new-plan-for-tearing-down-i-345/) are just as ridiculous. But removing I-375 makes sense. It's old and needs a complete teardown and rebuild. Best to build it to make it the most useful it can be. I believe the boulevard plan is much better for everyone - local residents, downtown businesses, and even drivers thanks to the improved traffic flow along I-75.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 22, 2022, 10:48:32 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 21, 2022, 11:16:42 PM
You have a free flowing freeway from I-75 to the riverfront. So let's spend, er uh, waste millions of taxpayer dollars putting in a boulevard that takes up the exact same space, and will no doubt add traffic signals and traffic tie-ups, no doubt adding to the traffic tie-ups and backups already along I-75 and adjacent streets. Going to a Tigers or Lions game should really be a load of fun getting tied up in traffic and looking for unreasonably priced parking.
The freeway needs to be replaced, one way or the other. The pavement is bad; bridges are crumbling and being held up with "temporary" props. As has been noted previously here, it's been determined that rebuilding the freeway as-is will cost more than removing it and putting in a boulevard.
There is also a perception, whether psychological or practical reality, that the freeway divides the city. A lot of people still remember the destruction of the Black Bottom community to build it and they want to see it go away. That community can never be replaced (and whatever new development that may come about is unknown) but removing the freeway may bring some closure. Scoff if you want, but that's part of "quality of life" and is worth something.
Your comments about traffic tie-ups make no sense. Currently one has to exit the freeway to surface streets at some point. Traffic tie-ups won't be any worse than they already are unless traffic volume increases. And your totally irrelevant "unreasonably priced parking" comment shows that you're really reaching.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 22, 2022, 09:17:44 AM
... Detroit's downtown isn't in demand for more space when you have several parking lots that could be developed into buildings. Look at the area behind the Fox Theatre all the way to Grand River for a good example of that.
Actually, not the best example. Those lots are filled for events at the Fox Theatre/LC Arena/Comerica Park/Ford Field. Whether replacing the lots with vertical parking garages is a worthwhile investment is another discussion.
That was just an example but they were discussing developing the lots between Comerica Park and Woodward such as where the former Wolverine Hotel once stood not too long ago. This is indeed for a different topic but the Ilitch families broken promises for development have been part of why these lots haven't been developed. Build some parking garages where there is demand for parking spaces and develop the ground floor into retail. In ending here I remember when the Madison Lenox Hotel was demolished and currently only a parking lot sits on the property.
Quote from: skluth on March 22, 2022, 11:44:09 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 21, 2022, 11:16:42 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 21, 2022, 12:40:51 PM
Yeah these conversations about removing urban freeways are idiotic. 375 is one that needs be removed and that's what this thread is about. Detroit will be better once this project is completed and hopefully new development pops up.
You have a free flowing freeway from I-75 to the riverfront. So let's spend, er uh, waste millions of taxpayer dollars putting in a boulevard that takes up the exact same space, and will no doubt add traffic signals and traffic tie-ups, no doubt adding to the traffic tie-ups and backups already along I-75 and adjacent streets. Going to a Tigers or Lions game should really be a load of fun getting tied up in traffic and looking for unreasonably priced parking.
I suggest you compare this project to what happened after Milwaukee removed the Park Freeway (http://www.wisconsinhighways.org/milwaukee/park.html). The area around the old stub of a freeway (not unlike I-375 though the Park was expected to continue further east) was a dump of decrepit buildings and empty parking lots around a highway which took up a huge amount of land for very little traffic or any other benefit. It's now a hub in central Milwaukee's revival, commonly called the Deer District (https://deerdistrict.com/); you might have seen it during the Bucks NBA championship run.
I don't agree with all freeway removals but this one makes sense. Activists in the Bay Area want to remove I-980 in Oakland (https://www.cnu.org/highways-boulevards/campaign-cities/oakland-980) using what can only be called underwear gnome logic (https://observer.com/2016/01/the-cautionary-tale-of-south-parks-underpants-gnomes/). The urbanists against I-345 in Dallas (https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2021/04/a-new-plan-for-tearing-down-i-345/) are just as ridiculous. But removing I-375 makes sense. It's old and needs a complete teardown and rebuild. Best to build it to make it the most useful it can be. I believe the boulevard plan is much better for everyone - local residents, downtown businesses, and even drivers thanks to the improved traffic flow along I-75.
I'm not against freeways totally but within the Grand Boulevard loop which is the Old Detroit before they started annexing land out to 8 Mile I'd rather see as few freeways as possible. Detroit's downtown is surrounded by freeways on three sides and a river on the other side so this problem is present on three sides of downtown. It does make the most sense to tear it down completely and rebuild it as a surface street (boulevard).
I really don't want to see it built as a boulevard with the median being as wide as the current freeway and nothing on it but grass but it could make out as nice park or something with trees growing instead of a large freeway being there. Also the interchange between I-75, I-375 and the Gratiot exit needs to be replaced as well. I-75 slows down to a 25 mph curve on the NB side where I-375 splits from it and it has been a pain for years. I-75 should be capped between the Lodge and this interchange as much as possible so that Midtown and Downtown can be connected it would do wonders for development of the area and with the planned District Detroit which hasn't even started construction other than Little Caesars Arena being built it would be a great time to connect Downtown to the rest of the city.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 22, 2022, 12:47:40 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 22, 2022, 11:44:09 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 21, 2022, 11:16:42 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 21, 2022, 12:40:51 PM
Yeah these conversations about removing urban freeways are idiotic. 375 is one that needs be removed and that's what this thread is about. Detroit will be better once this project is completed and hopefully new development pops up.
You have a free flowing freeway from I-75 to the riverfront. So let's spend, er uh, waste millions of taxpayer dollars putting in a boulevard that takes up the exact same space, and will no doubt add traffic signals and traffic tie-ups, no doubt adding to the traffic tie-ups and backups already along I-75 and adjacent streets. Going to a Tigers or Lions game should really be a load of fun getting tied up in traffic and looking for unreasonably priced parking.
I suggest you compare this project to what happened after Milwaukee removed the Park Freeway (http://www.wisconsinhighways.org/milwaukee/park.html). The area around the old stub of a freeway (not unlike I-375 though the Park was expected to continue further east) was a dump of decrepit buildings and empty parking lots around a highway which took up a huge amount of land for very little traffic or any other benefit. It's now a hub in central Milwaukee's revival, commonly called the Deer District (https://deerdistrict.com/); you might have seen it during the Bucks NBA championship run.
I don't agree with all freeway removals but this one makes sense. Activists in the Bay Area want to remove I-980 in Oakland (https://www.cnu.org/highways-boulevards/campaign-cities/oakland-980) using what can only be called underwear gnome logic (https://observer.com/2016/01/the-cautionary-tale-of-south-parks-underpants-gnomes/). The urbanists against I-345 in Dallas (https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2021/04/a-new-plan-for-tearing-down-i-345/) are just as ridiculous. But removing I-375 makes sense. It's old and needs a complete teardown and rebuild. Best to build it to make it the most useful it can be. I believe the boulevard plan is much better for everyone - local residents, downtown businesses, and even drivers thanks to the improved traffic flow along I-75.
I'm not against freeways totally but within the Grand Boulevard loop which is the Old Detroit before they started annexing land out to 8 Mile I'd rather see as few freeways as possible. Detroit's downtown is surrounded by freeways on three sides and a river on the other side so this problem is present on three sides of downtown. It does make the most sense to tear it down completely and rebuild it as a surface street (boulevard).
I really don't want to see it built as a boulevard with the median being as wide as the current freeway and nothing on it but grass but it could make out as nice park or something with trees growing instead of a large freeway being there. Also the interchange between I-75, I-375 and the Gratiot exit needs to be replaced as well. I-75 slows down to a 25 mph curve on the NB side where I-375 splits from it and it has been a pain for years. I-75 should be capped between the Lodge and this interchange as much as possible so that Midtown and Downtown can be connected it would do wonders for development of the area and with the planned District Detroit which hasn't even started construction other than Little Caesars Arena being built it would be a great time to connect Downtown to the rest of the city.
This is the preferred alternative (https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/Selected_Alternative_Map_749778_7.pdf) which looks like it's gone through all the preconstruction hoops. I personally don't think it's good to eliminate the direct access between I-75 and Gratiot, but I'm not familiar with the area so those ramps may not be very busy. The boulevard doesn't look excessively wide. I don't know if the green areas are to remain park or are waiting for development. I don't think it needs to be all parkland.
Here's the entire project website (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11058_75084---,00.html)for those who don't want to look back to find it.
Yeah I am having trouble understanding why they'd grade separate the street from Montcalm but not build a free flowing interchange at I-75.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 22, 2022, 02:53:44 PM
Yeah I am having trouble understanding why they'd grade separate the street from Montcalm but not build a free flowing interchange at I-75.
Oh, good grief. I didn't even notice that. I didn't notice the lights there at my laptop's scale until zooming in just now. There's not only a light where the ramps cross but where NB I-75 exits. (I'm hoping the light at going NB at I-75 on what I assume will be Chrysler Blvd is just a bad mistake.) The interchange plan is even worse than I assumed originally. As much as I think removing I-375 is for the best, they really clustered the plan for everything north of Gratiot. I think every poster here could design a better interchange (not counting FritzOwl and some of the other major fantasy designers).
Quote from: skluth on March 22, 2022, 01:48:18 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 22, 2022, 12:47:40 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 22, 2022, 11:44:09 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on March 21, 2022, 11:16:42 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 21, 2022, 12:40:51 PM
Yeah these conversations about removing urban freeways are idiotic. 375 is one that needs be removed and that's what this thread is about. Detroit will be better once this project is completed and hopefully new development pops up.
You have a free flowing freeway from I-75 to the riverfront. So let's spend, er uh, waste millions of taxpayer dollars putting in a boulevard that takes up the exact same space, and will no doubt add traffic signals and traffic tie-ups, no doubt adding to the traffic tie-ups and backups already along I-75 and adjacent streets. Going to a Tigers or Lions game should really be a load of fun getting tied up in traffic and looking for unreasonably priced parking.
I suggest you compare this project to what happened after Milwaukee removed the Park Freeway (http://www.wisconsinhighways.org/milwaukee/park.html). The area around the old stub of a freeway (not unlike I-375 though the Park was expected to continue further east) was a dump of decrepit buildings and empty parking lots around a highway which took up a huge amount of land for very little traffic or any other benefit. It's now a hub in central Milwaukee's revival, commonly called the Deer District (https://deerdistrict.com/); you might have seen it during the Bucks NBA championship run.
I don't agree with all freeway removals but this one makes sense. Activists in the Bay Area want to remove I-980 in Oakland (https://www.cnu.org/highways-boulevards/campaign-cities/oakland-980) using what can only be called underwear gnome logic (https://observer.com/2016/01/the-cautionary-tale-of-south-parks-underpants-gnomes/). The urbanists against I-345 in Dallas (https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2021/04/a-new-plan-for-tearing-down-i-345/) are just as ridiculous. But removing I-375 makes sense. It's old and needs a complete teardown and rebuild. Best to build it to make it the most useful it can be. I believe the boulevard plan is much better for everyone - local residents, downtown businesses, and even drivers thanks to the improved traffic flow along I-75.
I'm not against freeways totally but within the Grand Boulevard loop which is the Old Detroit before they started annexing land out to 8 Mile I'd rather see as few freeways as possible. Detroit's downtown is surrounded by freeways on three sides and a river on the other side so this problem is present on three sides of downtown. It does make the most sense to tear it down completely and rebuild it as a surface street (boulevard).
I really don't want to see it built as a boulevard with the median being as wide as the current freeway and nothing on it but grass but it could make out as nice park or something with trees growing instead of a large freeway being there. Also the interchange between I-75, I-375 and the Gratiot exit needs to be replaced as well. I-75 slows down to a 25 mph curve on the NB side where I-375 splits from it and it has been a pain for years. I-75 should be capped between the Lodge and this interchange as much as possible so that Midtown and Downtown can be connected it would do wonders for development of the area and with the planned District Detroit which hasn't even started construction other than Little Caesars Arena being built it would be a great time to connect Downtown to the rest of the city.
This is the preferred alternative (https://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/Selected_Alternative_Map_749778_7.pdf) which looks like it's gone through all the preconstruction hoops. I personally don't think it's good to eliminate the direct access between I-75 and Gratiot, but I'm not familiar with the area so those ramps may not be very busy. The boulevard doesn't look excessively wide. I don't know if the green areas are to remain park or are waiting for development. I don't think it needs to be all parkland.
Here's the entire project website (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-9621_11058_75084---,00.html)for those who don't want to look back to find it.
That is pretty much how it should be right there. Looks like it'll be developed to me either as parkland or commercial use. Gratiot doesn't really get much traffic from I-75 as most traffic already on I-75 would use I-94 to get to Gratiot. Gratiot really isn't that busy of a street downtown it's busier in Macomb County.
Quote from: skluth on March 22, 2022, 07:23:16 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 22, 2022, 02:53:44 PM
Yeah I am having trouble understanding why they'd grade separate the street from Montcalm but not build a free flowing interchange at I-75.
Oh, good grief. I didn't even notice that. I didn't notice the lights there at my laptop's scale until zooming in just now. There's not only a light where the ramps cross but where NB I-75 exits. (I'm hoping the light at going NB at I-75 on what I assume will be Chrysler Blvd is just a bad mistake.) The interchange plan is even worse than I assumed originally. As much as I think removing I-375 is for the best, they really clustered the plan for everything north of Gratiot. I think every poster here could design a better interchange (not counting FritzOwl and some of the other major fantasy designers).
I looked at it closely. I am familiar with the area and it is not a bad setup at all. It looks like all connections that are currently there will still be able to be made to Gratiot Avenue. NB I see a ramp that follows the course of the through freeway and intersects with all connections. It has a ramp to connect to where the SB I-375 freeway would once be. There is a new connector to Gratiot there replacing the old one and Montcalm Street is a through street to Gratiot. Looks like a much better setup and it won't take up as much land.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 22, 2022, 09:18:42 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 22, 2022, 07:23:16 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 22, 2022, 02:53:44 PM
Yeah I am having trouble understanding why they'd grade separate the street from Montcalm but not build a free flowing interchange at I-75.
Oh, good grief. I didn't even notice that. I didn't notice the lights there at my laptop's scale until zooming in just now. There's not only a light where the ramps cross but where NB I-75 exits. (I'm hoping the light at going NB at I-75 on what I assume will be Chrysler Blvd is just a bad mistake.) The interchange plan is even worse than I assumed originally. As much as I think removing I-375 is for the best, they really clustered the plan for everything north of Gratiot. I think every poster here could design a better interchange (not counting FritzOwl and some of the other major fantasy designers).
I looked at it closely. I am familiar with the area and it is not a bad setup at all. It looks like all connections that are currently there will still be able to be made to Gratiot Avenue. NB I see a ramp that follows the course of the through freeway and intersects with all connections. It has a ramp to connect to where the SB I-375 freeway would once be. There is a new connector to Gratiot there replacing the old one and Montcalm Street is a through street to Gratiot. Looks like a much better setup and it won't take up as much land.
I will take your word on this as I have never been there. (Only been as close as Ann Arbor.) I'm just used to DOTs in WI and MO, and I think both states would have built a free-flowing interchange to I-75 there. I'm new to CA but I think Caltrans would also have. If there isn't much traffic on the ramps to Gratiot or on Gratiot itself (I'm guessing it's much like Choteau (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6255613,-90.2349025,3a,60y,295.22h,83.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6lC3QBPDVZcSt_qzWA8ykQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) or North Florissant (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.645246,-90.1973222,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdcTYTaBLHQATMPdFI30hDA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in St Louis which were widened pre-interstate and comparatively overbuilt now), I understand not replacing them but I would still build a free-flowing interchange to Chrysler Blvd. If not, I think it would work better by eliminating the curved ramps to/from SB I-75 and make the interchange more like a standard diamond - or even a partial DDI where all the lights are south of I-75.
Yikes, looks like pedestrians would have to cross 12 lanes of traffic at Gratiot and the new facility. That'll mess with your signal timing!
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 23, 2022, 03:35:26 PM
Yikes, looks like pedestrians would have to cross 12 lanes of traffic at Gratiot and the new facility. That'll mess with your signal timing!
Should have pedestrian bridges.
Quote from: skluth on March 23, 2022, 02:52:21 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 22, 2022, 09:18:42 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 22, 2022, 07:23:16 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 22, 2022, 02:53:44 PM
Yeah I am having trouble understanding why they'd grade separate the street from Montcalm but not build a free flowing interchange at I-75.
Oh, good grief. I didn't even notice that. I didn't notice the lights there at my laptop's scale until zooming in just now. There's not only a light where the ramps cross but where NB I-75 exits. (I'm hoping the light at going NB at I-75 on what I assume will be Chrysler Blvd is just a bad mistake.) The interchange plan is even worse than I assumed originally. As much as I think removing I-375 is for the best, they really clustered the plan for everything north of Gratiot. I think every poster here could design a better interchange (not counting FritzOwl and some of the other major fantasy designers).
I looked at it closely. I am familiar with the area and it is not a bad setup at all. It looks like all connections that are currently there will still be able to be made to Gratiot Avenue. NB I see a ramp that follows the course of the through freeway and intersects with all connections. It has a ramp to connect to where the SB I-375 freeway would once be. There is a new connector to Gratiot there replacing the old one and Montcalm Street is a through street to Gratiot. Looks like a much better setup and it won't take up as much land.
I will take your word on this as I have never been there. (Only been as close as Ann Arbor.) I'm just used to DOTs in WI and MO, and I think both states would have built a free-flowing interchange to I-75 there. I'm new to CA but I think Caltrans would also have. If there isn't much traffic on the ramps to Gratiot or on Gratiot itself (I'm guessing it's much like Choteau (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6255613,-90.2349025,3a,60y,295.22h,83.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6lC3QBPDVZcSt_qzWA8ykQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) or North Florissant (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.645246,-90.1973222,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdcTYTaBLHQATMPdFI30hDA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) in St Louis which were widened pre-interstate and comparatively overbuilt now), I understand not replacing them but I would still build a free-flowing interchange to Chrysler Blvd. If not, I think it would work better by eliminating the curved ramps to/from SB I-75 and make the interchange more like a standard diamond - or even a partial DDI where all the lights are south of I-75.
It would make sense to build it as a freeway up until Gratiot at least as off ramps like how Ontario and Ohio Streets are in Chicago. Gratiot isn't that busy of a street there, it only has around 10,000 VPD and under 10,000 VPD downtown. I'm taking it what you are calling Chrysler Blvd. is the new boulevard, it fits the grid as Hastings Street which is the historic name for the corridor. It can work like that as long as the through traffic is kept off the ramps like it currently is. I would have been happy with them just stopping the freeway at Gratiot and removing the Gratiot connector.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 23, 2022, 03:35:26 PM
Yikes, looks like pedestrians would have to cross 12 lanes of traffic at Gratiot and the new facility. That'll mess with your signal timing!
Where abouts are you talking about? Gratiot is six lanes and you can pause in the median of the boulevard to wait and cross the rest of the street if where you are talking about is a stretch of Gratiot where this is present.
Michigan is known for absurdly wide roads :-D
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 23, 2022, 08:04:27 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 23, 2022, 03:35:26 PM
Yikes, looks like pedestrians would have to cross 12 lanes of traffic at Gratiot and the new facility. That'll mess with your signal timing!
Where abouts are you talking about? Gratiot is six lanes and you can pause in the median of the boulevard to wait and cross the rest of the street if where you are talking about is a stretch of Gratiot where this is present.
The proposed surface road is 8 lanes plus turn lanes at Gratiot. That is an intimidating physical barrier to pedestrians regardless of whether it's broken into smaller chunks where pedestrians can be stranded between cycles. Combined withe proximity to the stadiums, I feel it would be appropriate to have an pedestrian overpass at this location.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 24, 2022, 11:33:48 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 23, 2022, 08:04:27 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 23, 2022, 03:35:26 PM
Yikes, looks like pedestrians would have to cross 12 lanes of traffic at Gratiot and the new facility. That'll mess with your signal timing!
Where abouts are you talking about? Gratiot is six lanes and you can pause in the median of the boulevard to wait and cross the rest of the street if where you are talking about is a stretch of Gratiot where this is present.
The proposed surface road is 8 lanes plus turn lanes at Gratiot. That is an intimidating physical barrier to pedestrians regardless of whether it's broken into smaller chunks where pedestrians can be stranded between cycles. Combined withe proximity to the stadiums, I feel it would be appropriate to have an pedestrian overpass at this location.
Well the stadium pedestrian traffic is on the west side of this, there isn't much demand for stadium parking east of I-375 and if there is anyone that parks over there Montcalm Street looks like it's a bridge over the eight lanes which would work fine for pedestrian traffic. Most of the stadium traffic parks in either the parking garages downtown or behind the Fox Theater. All I'm saying is that there isn't much pedestrian traffic on Gratiot even on game days.
I remember the night that Dreadlock Mike and James Van Horn were both killed after getting hit by a car on Gratiot in that area. Dreadlock Mike and James Van Horn were two Detroit street legends, Dreadlock Mike was in a wheelchair and James Van Horn is the guy that used to shake his cup and belt out Eat em up Tigers eat em up before and after games. But that was just an incident that happened and it made me think of it talking about this part of Gratiot.
This is in response to Thegeet starting a new Interstate 375 removal thread. I think Interstate 375 should not be converted into a boulevard. The other parts of the project (such as allowing Interstate 75 to pass through the interchange without exiting, eliminating the connector to Gratiot Ave.) I could totally get behind. I think a boulevard with signals would not be better for the corridor either traffic-wise or for pedestrian-safety. If it were up to me, I would rebuild 375 in its existing configuration, and build caps over the freeway. There was a story in The Detroit Free Press on December 15, 2013 titled "Removing I-375 an urban planning disaster waiting to happen" that sums up my view of the matter very accurately; access to the story can be found at the bottom of the Interstate 375 (Michigan) Wikipedia page.
Most of the traffic that gets on I-375 gets off at either Madison or Lafayette. Only about 15,000 VPD travel down to Jefferson. I would hope for the service drives to become the thru traffic and develop the area where I-375 used to be. Ultimately I would love a downtown Detroit without the Lodge Freeway on the other side of downtown as well and make I-75 go through a tunnel. Those interchanges take up massive amounts of space.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 15, 2022, 01:22:02 PM
This is in response to Thegeet starting a new Interstate 375 removal thread. I think Interstate 375 should not be converted into a boulevard. The other parts of the project (such as allowing Interstate 75 to pass through the interchange without exiting, eliminating the connector to Gratiot Ave.) I could totally get behind. I think a boulevard with signals would not be better for the corridor either traffic-wise or for pedestrian-safety. If it were up to me, I would rebuild 375 in its existing configuration, and build caps over the freeway. There was a story in The Detroit Free Press on December 15, 2013 titled "Removing I-375 an urban planning disaster waiting to happen" that sums up my view of the matter very accurately; access to the story can be found at the bottom of the Interstate 375 (Michigan) Wikipedia page.
Ideally it would be converted to a road tunnel but we can't do that here anymore.
$105 million dollar grand awarded for this project:
"On Sept. 15, Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, U.S. Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg and local Detroit leaders announced that Michigan won a $105 million competitive federal grant to fund the I-375 modernization project in Detroit. The project will replace the outdated I-375 freeway with an accessible boulevard, spurring economic development and linking adjacent areas of Detroit."
- https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/officials-celebrate-michigan-winning-105m-for-historic-i-375/58052
PS, any way we can get a name change to something more relevant?
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 29, 2022, 01:48:35 AM
$105 million dollar grand awarded for this project:
"On Sept. 15, Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, U.S. Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg and local Detroit leaders announced that Michigan won a $105 million competitive federal grant to fund the I-375 modernization project in Detroit. The project will replace the outdated I-375 freeway with an accessible boulevard, spurring economic development and linking adjacent areas of Detroit."
- https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/officials-celebrate-michigan-winning-105m-for-historic-i-375/58052
PS, any way we can get a name change to something more relevant?
"Detroit - I-375 Road Diet"
Seems like "I-375 decommissioning" would be appropriate.
Quote from: zzcarp on September 29, 2022, 11:50:25 AM
Seems like "I-375 decommissioning" would be appropriate.
It's more than that. "I-375 removal."
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 29, 2022, 11:55:10 AM
Quote from: zzcarp on September 29, 2022, 11:50:25 AM
Seems like "I-375 decommissioning" would be appropriate.
It's more than that. "I-375 removal."
It's more than a removal too. It's a removal and replacement with a lower-grade, non-interstate-compliant facility that will cause the I-375 decommissioning.
I wonder if the new boulevard will be named Walter P. Chrysler Boulevard, since it is currently the Walter P. Chrysler Freeway. Also, if the new road gets a state highway designation, like M-375, the unsigned Business Spur 375 should be included as part of the route (signposted of course).
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 29, 2022, 12:16:21 PM
I wonder if the new boulevard will be named Walter P. Chrysler Boulevard, since it is currently the Walter P. Chrysler Freeway. Also, if the new road gets a state highway designation, like M-375, the unsigned Business Spur 375 should be included as part of the route (signposted of course).
I think it would only be right to keep the Chrysler name for the downgraded part. As for M-375, there's always the possibility that it could be unnumbered as well, although I would expect it to be designated that (a la I-895 to NY 895 when the Sheridan Expressway became Sheridan Blvd).
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 29, 2022, 12:16:21 PM
I wonder if the new boulevard will be named Walter P. Chrysler Boulevard, since it is currently the Walter P. Chrysler Freeway. Also, if the new road gets a state highway designation, like M-375, the unsigned Business Spur 375 should be included as part of the route (signposted of course).
I have a feeling that the powers that be will give the road a new name, to fight racism or something.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on September 29, 2022, 01:14:52 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 29, 2022, 12:16:21 PM
I wonder if the new boulevard will be named Walter P. Chrysler Boulevard, since it is currently the Walter P. Chrysler Freeway. Also, if the new road gets a state highway designation, like M-375, the unsigned Business Spur 375 should be included as part of the route (signposted of course).
I have a feeling that the powers that be will give the road a new name, to fight racism or something.
That was my thought as well, though I don't know of Mr. Chrysler having problematic baggage such as, say, Henry Ford has.
Quote from: zzcarp on September 29, 2022, 01:26:26 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on September 29, 2022, 01:14:52 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 29, 2022, 12:16:21 PM
I wonder if the new boulevard will be named Walter P. Chrysler Boulevard, since it is currently the Walter P. Chrysler Freeway. Also, if the new road gets a state highway designation, like M-375, the unsigned Business Spur 375 should be included as part of the route (signposted of course).
I have a feeling that the powers that be will give the road a new name, to fight racism or something.
That was my thought as well, though I don't know of Mr. Chrysler having problematic baggage such as, say, Henry Ford has.
I wasn't even necessarily thinking of that, but that the road would be given a new name because of the way it now "connects the community". Seems ripe for a rebrand.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 29, 2022, 01:48:35 AM
$105 million dollar grand awarded for this project:
"On Sept. 15, Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, U.S. Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg and local Detroit leaders announced that Michigan won a $105 million competitive federal grant to fund the I-375 modernization project in Detroit. The project will replace the outdated I-375 freeway with an accessible boulevard, spurring economic development and linking adjacent areas of Detroit."
- https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/officials-celebrate-michigan-winning-105m-for-historic-i-375/58052
PS, any way we can get a name change to something more relevant?
How about "Waste O'Money Blvd"?
I'd really like to know how many complaining about the removal of I-375 actually use it. I don't. I've never been to Detroit. The plan (https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Projects-Studies/Studies/Current-Environmental/I-375/Meeting-Materials/I-375-Project-Brochure.pdf?rev=10b21a534d4146c2b3050147d386522b) looks like something that helps both drivers and local residents. This isn't some insane anti-freeway proposal like those in Oakland (https://neighborland.com/ideas/oak-to-remove-highway-980-wh) or Dallas (https://www.coalitionforanewdallas.org/i-345) where urbanists are attempting to remove useful freeways. Even if you take out the racial aspects, it's no longer very useful and even I-75 will be better with its removal. Detroit isn't the same city it was when I-375 was built; it's smaller and its downtown isn't the dynamic place it was in 1964. It's outlived whatever usefulness it had. Removing I-375 is like removing an old railroad unused track. It's not important anymore.
They're also adding more lanes too.
I use I-375 but almost never go all the way to Jefferson, I usually get off at Lafayette.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on September 29, 2022, 12:16:21 PM
I wonder if the new boulevard will be named Walter P. Chrysler Boulevard, since it is currently the Walter P. Chrysler Freeway. Also, if the new road gets a state highway designation, like M-375, the unsigned Business Spur 375 should be included as part of the route (signposted of course).
If they do it right it would be named Hastings Street which is the old name and a continuation of that street. I doubt it will become a state highway.
Quote from: skluth on September 29, 2022, 06:23:59 PM
I'd really like to know how many complaining about the removal of I-375 actually use it. I don't. I've never been to Detroit. The plan (https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Projects-Studies/Studies/Current-Environmental/I-375/Meeting-Materials/I-375-Project-Brochure.pdf?rev=10b21a534d4146c2b3050147d386522b) looks like something that helps both drivers and local residents. This isn't some insane anti-freeway proposal like those in Oakland (https://neighborland.com/ideas/oak-to-remove-highway-980-wh) or Dallas (https://www.coalitionforanewdallas.org/i-345) where urbanists are attempting to remove useful freeways. Even if you take out the racial aspects, it's no longer very useful and even I-75 will be better with its removal. Detroit isn't the same city it was when I-375 was built; it's smaller and its downtown isn't the dynamic place it was in 1964. It's outlived whatever usefulness it had. Removing I-375 is like removing an old railroad unused track. It's not important anymore.
This will not reunite neighborhoods that have been disrupted for 60 years. In fact, there are very few, if any, occupied houses west of the freeway, presently. Pedestrian travel will still be problematic because a multi-lane boulevard will be put in its place. Access to Comerica Park, Ford Field, Greektown Casino, The Renaissance Center, tunnel to Canada and the Detroit Riverfront will now be subject to less free flowing traffic and more traffic signals. Hey, if you're going to demolish the freeway, then do the right thing and turn it into a massive, low-cost parking lot for sporting events, casino patrons, shoppers, tourists and business people. This is Detroit, where over 1 million people have left over the past several decades, despite building 3 casinos and constructing 3 new sports facilities. There's all kinds of land available for retail operations in the city, so there is absolutely no need to disrupt traffic flow to sporting events, casinos, the riverfront and Canada.
Quote from: skluth on September 29, 2022, 06:23:59 PM
I'd really like to know how many complaining about the removal of I-375 actually use it. I don't. I've never been to Detroit. The plan (https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Projects-Studies/Studies/Current-Environmental/I-375/Meeting-Materials/I-375-Project-Brochure.pdf?rev=10b21a534d4146c2b3050147d386522b) looks like something that helps both drivers and local residents. This isn't some insane anti-freeway proposal like those in Oakland (https://neighborland.com/ideas/oak-to-remove-highway-980-wh) or Dallas (https://www.coalitionforanewdallas.org/i-345) where urbanists are attempting to remove useful freeways. Even if you take out the racial aspects, it's no longer very useful and even I-75 will be better with its removal. Detroit isn't the same city it was when I-375 was built; it's smaller and its downtown isn't the dynamic place it was in 1964. It's outlived whatever usefulness it had. Removing I-375 is like removing an old railroad unused track. It's not important anymore.
This will not reunite neighborhoods that have been disrupted for 60 years. In fact, there are very few, if any, occupied houses west of the freeway, presently. Pedestrian travel will still be problematic because a multi-lane boulevard will be put in its place. Access to Comerica Park, Ford Field, Greektown Casino, The Renaissance Center, tunnel to Canada and the Detroit Riverfront will now be subject to less free flowing traffic and more traffic signals. Hey, if you're going to demolish the freeway, then do the right thing and turn it into a massive, low-cost parking lot for sporting events, casino patrons, shoppers, tourists and business people. This is Detroit, where over 1 million people have left over the past several decades, despite building 3 casinos and constructing 3 new sports facilities. There's all kinds of land available for retail operations in the city, so there is absolutely no need to disrupt traffic flow to sporting events, casinos, the riverfront and Canada.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 24, 2022, 04:01:32 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 24, 2022, 11:33:48 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 23, 2022, 08:04:27 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 23, 2022, 03:35:26 PM
Yikes, looks like pedestrians would have to cross 12 lanes of traffic at Gratiot and the new facility. That'll mess with your signal timing!
Where abouts are you talking about? Gratiot is six lanes and you can pause in the median of the boulevard to wait and cross the rest of the street if where you are talking about is a stretch of Gratiot where this is present.
The proposed surface road is 8 lanes plus turn lanes at Gratiot. That is an intimidating physical barrier to pedestrians regardless of whether it's broken into smaller chunks where pedestrians can be stranded between cycles. Combined withe proximity to the stadiums, I feel it would be appropriate to have an pedestrian overpass at this location.
Well the stadium pedestrian traffic is on the west side of this, there isn't much demand for stadium parking east of I-375 and if there is anyone that parks over there Montcalm Street looks like it's a bridge over the eight lanes which would work fine for pedestrian traffic. Most of the stadium traffic parks in either the parking garages downtown or behind the Fox Theater. All I'm saying is that there isn't much pedestrian traffic on Gratiot even on game days.
I remember the night that Dreadlock Mike and James Van Horn were both killed after getting hit by a car on Gratiot in that area. Dreadlock Mike and James Van Horn were two Detroit street legends, Dreadlock Mike was in a wheelchair and James Van Horn is the guy that used to shake his cup and belt out Eat em up Tigers eat em up before and after games. But that was just an incident that happened and it made me think of it talking about this part of Gratiot.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 24, 2022, 04:01:32 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 24, 2022, 11:33:48 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 23, 2022, 08:04:27 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 23, 2022, 03:35:26 PM
Yikes, looks like pedestrians would have to cross 12 lanes of traffic at Gratiot and the new facility. That'll mess with your signal timing!
Where abouts are you talking about? Gratiot is six lanes and you can pause in the median of the boulevard to wait and cross the rest of the street if where you are talking about is a stretch of Gratiot where this is present.
The proposed surface road is 8 lanes plus turn lanes at Gratiot. That is an intimidating physical barrier to pedestrians regardless of whether it's broken into smaller chunks where pedestrians can be stranded between cycles. Combined withe proximity to the stadiums, I feel it would be appropriate to have an pedestrian overpass at this location.
Well the stadium pedestrian traffic is on the west side of this, there isn't much demand for stadium parking east of I-375 and if there is anyone that parks over there Montcalm Street looks like it's a bridge over the eight lanes which would work fine for pedestrian traffic. Most of the stadium traffic parks in either the parking garages downtown or behind the Fox Theater. All I'm saying is that there isn't much pedestrian traffic on Gratiot even on game days.
I remember the night that Dreadlock Mike and James Van Horn were both killed after getting hit by a car on Gratiot in that area. Dreadlock Mike and James Van Horn were two Detroit street legends, Dreadlock Mike was in a wheelchair and James Van Horn is the guy that used to shake his cup and belt out Eat em up Tigers eat em up before and after games. But that was just an incident that happened and it made me think of it talking about this part of Gratiot.
I always park east of I-375. Parking is much cheaper and a much shorter walk than much of the pay through the nose parking west of I-375.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 29, 2022, 01:48:35 AM
PS, any way we can get a name change to something more relevant?
Done with a subtle change.
Quote from: Terry Shea on September 30, 2022, 01:15:13 AM
Quote from: skluth on September 29, 2022, 06:23:59 PM
I'd really like to know how many complaining about the removal of I-375 actually use it. I don't. I've never been to Detroit. The plan (https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/MDOT/Projects-Studies/Studies/Current-Environmental/I-375/Meeting-Materials/I-375-Project-Brochure.pdf?rev=10b21a534d4146c2b3050147d386522b) looks like something that helps both drivers and local residents. This isn't some insane anti-freeway proposal like those in Oakland (https://neighborland.com/ideas/oak-to-remove-highway-980-wh) or Dallas (https://www.coalitionforanewdallas.org/i-345) where urbanists are attempting to remove useful freeways. Even if you take out the racial aspects, it's no longer very useful and even I-75 will be better with its removal. Detroit isn't the same city it was when I-375 was built; it's smaller and its downtown isn't the dynamic place it was in 1964. It's outlived whatever usefulness it had. Removing I-375 is like removing an old railroad unused track. It's not important anymore.
This will not reunite neighborhoods that have been disrupted for 60 years. In fact, there are very few, if any, occupied houses west of the freeway, presently. Pedestrian travel will still be problematic because a multi-lane boulevard will be put in its place. Access to Comerica Park, Ford Field, Greektown Casino, The Renaissance Center, tunnel to Canada and the Detroit Riverfront will now be subject to less free flowing traffic and more traffic signals. Hey, if you're going to demolish the freeway, then do the right thing and turn it into a massive, low-cost parking lot for sporting events, casino patrons, shoppers, tourists and business people. This is Detroit, where over 1 million people have left over the past several decades, despite building 3 casinos and constructing 3 new sports facilities. There's all kinds of land available for retail operations in the city, so there is absolutely no need to disrupt traffic flow to sporting events, casinos, the riverfront and Canada. Quote from: Flint1979 on March 24, 2022, 04:01:32 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 24, 2022, 11:33:48 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 23, 2022, 08:04:27 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 23, 2022, 03:35:26 PM
Yikes, looks like pedestrians would have to cross 12 lanes of traffic at Gratiot and the new facility. That'll mess with your signal timing!
Where abouts are you talking about? Gratiot is six lanes and you can pause in the median of the boulevard to wait and cross the rest of the street if where you are talking about is a stretch of Gratiot where this is present.
The proposed surface road is 8 lanes plus turn lanes at Gratiot. That is an intimidating physical barrier to pedestrians regardless of whether it's broken into smaller chunks where pedestrians can be stranded between cycles. Combined withe proximity to the stadiums, I feel it would be appropriate to have an pedestrian overpass at this location.
Well the stadium pedestrian traffic is on the west side of this, there isn't much demand for stadium parking east of I-375 and if there is anyone that parks over there Montcalm Street looks like it's a bridge over the eight lanes which would work fine for pedestrian traffic. Most of the stadium traffic parks in either the parking garages downtown or behind the Fox Theater. All I'm saying is that there isn't much pedestrian traffic on Gratiot even on game days.
I remember the night that Dreadlock Mike and James Van Horn were both killed after getting hit by a car on Gratiot in that area. Dreadlock Mike and James Van Horn were two Detroit street legends, Dreadlock Mike was in a wheelchair and James Van Horn is the guy that used to shake his cup and belt out Eat em up Tigers eat em up before and after games. But that was just an incident that happened and it made me think of it talking about this part of Gratiot.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 24, 2022, 04:01:32 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 24, 2022, 11:33:48 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 23, 2022, 08:04:27 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 23, 2022, 03:35:26 PM
Yikes, looks like pedestrians would have to cross 12 lanes of traffic at Gratiot and the new facility. That'll mess with your signal timing!
Where abouts are you talking about? Gratiot is six lanes and you can pause in the median of the boulevard to wait and cross the rest of the street if where you are talking about is a stretch of Gratiot where this is present.
The proposed surface road is 8 lanes plus turn lanes at Gratiot. That is an intimidating physical barrier to pedestrians regardless of whether it's broken into smaller chunks where pedestrians can be stranded between cycles. Combined withe proximity to the stadiums, I feel it would be appropriate to have an pedestrian overpass at this location.
Well the stadium pedestrian traffic is on the west side of this, there isn't much demand for stadium parking east of I-375 and if there is anyone that parks over there Montcalm Street looks like it's a bridge over the eight lanes which would work fine for pedestrian traffic. Most of the stadium traffic parks in either the parking garages downtown or behind the Fox Theater. All I'm saying is that there isn't much pedestrian traffic on Gratiot even on game days.
I remember the night that Dreadlock Mike and James Van Horn were both killed after getting hit by a car on Gratiot in that area. Dreadlock Mike and James Van Horn were two Detroit street legends, Dreadlock Mike was in a wheelchair and James Van Horn is the guy that used to shake his cup and belt out Eat em up Tigers eat em up before and after games. But that was just an incident that happened and it made me think of it talking about this part of Gratiot.
I always park east of I-375. Parking is much cheaper and a much shorter walk than much of the pay through the nose parking west of I-375.
I'll usually park behind the Fox Theater on Cass like between Columbia and Elizabeth pretty much where the Chin Tiki used to be.
Quote from: Alex on October 09, 2022, 04:24:07 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 29, 2022, 01:48:35 AM
PS, any way we can get a name change to something more relevant?
Done with a subtle change.
Thanks! Much better, IMHO.
Looks like work could begin in 2025:
https://www.roadsbridges.com/construction-planning/news/33003837/mdots-plans-to-replace-i375-in-detroit
Direct link to the open house just held: https://pima.michiganoutreach.org/public/event-registration/search?project_id=106&pe_guid=8d47db79-a631-48dc-b09c-2f691749d679
Good to see this highway go, not really useful. my only beef is the new boulevard is way to wide.
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 22, 2023, 08:14:26 AM
Good to see this highway go, not really useful. my only beef is the new boulevard is way to wide.
Yeah I'm not really what the point is of doing this to make the area more pedestrian friendly if you're still going to have a boulevard like that.
I hope the new boulevard replaces one of the streets that had frontage along I-375, and they don't just stick a boulevard halfway between two city streets. That would be stupid to have a boulevard mid-block between two other streets.
A graphic of the plans can be found at https://detroitmi.gov/departments/planning-and-development-department/neighborhood-plans/central-design-region/i-375-reconnecting-communities-project
The boulevard is sticking to the western edge of the project area, with service roads and mainline removed throughout much of the project. The service road will be readapted as a two-lane road between Monroe and Gratiot.
(https://detroitmi.gov/sites/detroitmi.localhost/files/2022-10/MDOT%20-%20Concept.jpg)
Quote from: paulthemapguy on May 10, 2023, 10:23:17 AM
I hope the new boulevard replaces one of the streets that had frontage along I-375, and they don't just stick a boulevard halfway between two city streets. That would be stupid to have a boulevard mid-block between two other streets.
What would make sense is to use the service drives as the new streets and fill in the highway and build something on it. It could be a park or you could build buildings on it. And reusing the name Hastings Street would be a good thing as well.
I doubt the boulevard will be the boon everyone says it is going to be. I would have rather cap the entire freeway and reconstruct it as-is.
What was the original plan or that eastward spur?
Mike
wasn't M-53 supposed to be a freeway down there?
Quote from: silverback1065 on May 11, 2023, 06:25:45 PM
wasn't M-53 supposed to be a freeway down there?
That is one of my long-held beliefs, but I never saw any confirmation of it. Ditto M-8 connecting to it. OTOH, I can also envision eastward spurs emanating from it.
Mike
Yes M-53 was supposed to be a freeway connecting to the Davison but part of the Detroit freeway revolts canceled that. It wouldn't have ran down Van Dyke but instead would have ran down Mound Road. That is why the Mound Road exit on I-696 is so overbuilt, it was supposed to be a freeway to freeway connection.
It is my belief that as originally planned I-75 was supposed to run closer to the river. This would be the reason that I-375 exists like it does and it was already built to Jefferson so they put it in use. I-75 curves three times in less than two miles, the interchange with I-375 and the Gratiot connector, the interchange with I-96 and another curve just after the I-96 interchange near the Ambassador Bridge. I think the route along the river was denied and what we have today is what we ended up with. It would make sense for I-75 to go all the way down to Jefferson, curving once instead of three times.
A long time ago i suggested that they remove all of I-375 and I-75 between I-94 and I-96 . This would remove all the freeways downtown except the Lodge. I never thought it was a good idea to do that but I was wishing downtown Detroit looked more like downtown Chicago. The problem today is that Detroit's freeway system was planned and built when the city had close to 2 million people so that is how the freeway system is built, it's overkill for today's population.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 11, 2023, 08:26:49 PM
A long time ago i suggested that they remove all of I-375 and I-75 between I-94 and I-96 . This would remove all the freeways downtown except the Lodge. I never thought it was a good idea to do that but I was wishing downtown Detroit looked more like downtown Chicago. The problem today is that Detroit's freeway system was planned and built when the city had close to 2 million people so that is how the freeway system is built, it's overkill for today's population.
Yeah but however when we count the suburbs and to a latter extent, Windsor on the Canadian side. The metro population of Detroit-Windsor is close to 5 million.
I don't think the freeway spur from Interstate 75/375 was planned to be anything more than a connector with Gratiot Ave. Kind of like Interstate 90/94's connectors in Chicago. The ones to W. Ohio St. and from W. Ontario St.; the connector off the end of Interstate 290 connecting with W. Ida B. Wells Dr. (formerly Congress Parkway); and the 90/94 connector to W. Cermak Rd. (with connections to Interstate 55).
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 11, 2023, 09:05:08 PM
I don't think the freeway spur from Interstate 75/375 was planned to be anything more than a connector with Gratiot Ave. Kind of like Interstate 90/94's connectors in Chicago. The ones to W. Ohio St. and from W. Ontario St.; the connector off the end of Interstate 290 connecting with W. Ida B. Wells Dr. (formerly Congress Parkway); and the 90/94 connector to W. Cermak Rd. (with connections to Interstate 55).
The Ohio-Ontario feeder was originally planned to continue on eastward as an I-standard connector to LSD by Michigan Ave.
mike
Quote from: mgk920 on May 11, 2023, 09:54:54 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 11, 2023, 09:05:08 PM
I don't think the freeway spur from Interstate 75/375 was planned to be anything more than a connector with Gratiot Ave. Kind of like Interstate 90/94's connectors in Chicago. The ones to W. Ohio St. and from W. Ontario St.; the connector off the end of Interstate 290 connecting with W. Ida B. Wells Dr. (formerly Congress Parkway); and the 90/94 connector to W. Cermak Rd. (with connections to Interstate 55).
The Ohio-Ontario feeder was originally planned to continue on eastward as an I-standard connector to LSD by Michigan Ave.
mike
In fact, the Ohio/Ontario ramps off the Kennedy Expressway were originally planned as the northern terminus of I-494, when it was planned to run along Lake Shore Drive before the Crosstown Expressway plans came along (after which I-694 became the new LSD designation). Only after the LSD freeway was killed off did they end up as they are now. For that reason, the interchange is overbuilt for its current purpose. Same goes for the Stony Island Avenue ramps connecting the Skyway and the 3-way interchange with the Bishop Ford Freeway, as they were also to become part of original I-494/I-694.
I wasn't aware those ramps were for those canceled Interstates. True, I did know there was to have been an Interstate 494 along Lake Shore Drive (my 1971 Rand McNally Road Atlas shows it as such), but I assumed the connecting ramps and roadways to LSD were never constructed. I also knew about the 694 designation (which Wikipedia does not mention).
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 11, 2023, 08:26:49 PM
It is my belief that as originally planned I-75 was supposed to run closer to the river. This would be the reason that I-375 exists like it does and it was already built to Jefferson so they put it in use. I-75 curves three times in less than two miles, the interchange with I-375 and the Gratiot connector, the interchange with I-96 and another curve just after the I-96 interchange near the Ambassador Bridge. I think the route along the river was denied and what we have today is what we ended up with. It would make sense for I-75 to go all the way down to Jefferson, curving once instead of three times.
A long time ago i suggested that they remove all of I-375 and I-75 between I-94 and I-96 . This would remove all the freeways downtown except the Lodge. I never thought it was a good idea to do that but I was wishing downtown Detroit looked more like downtown Chicago. The problem today is that Detroit's freeway system was planned and built when the city had close to 2 million people so that is how the freeway system is built, it's overkill for today's population.
Let's not confuse a city's population loss with the traffic going through the city. As you well know, Flint and Saginaw have lost a massive % of their population the last several decades, but they sure get traffic through the area.
:hmmm: interesting! Didn't know about all of those cancelled freeways.
A bit off-topic but a weird idea who come to my mind is the extension of the western gap of Alfred Street to the proposed new local connector while the other part of Alfred St. in Eastern Market could be renamed.
(https://zupimages.net/up/23/19/z8bq.jpg) (https://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=23/19/z8bq.jpg)
In Milwaukee, where the Park Fwy [WI 145] was removed, the extra land was filled with buildings.
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on May 12, 2023, 02:53:02 PM
A bit off-topic but a weird idea who come to my mind is the extension of the western gap of Alfred Street to the proposed new local connector while the other part of Alfred St. in Eastern Market could be renamed.
(https://zupimages.net/up/23/19/z8bq.jpg) (https://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=23/19/z8bq.jpg)
Alfred Street is in the grid and in the right location all the way. It isn't going to serve much purpose to extend it any. The area there is where the Brewster Projects used to be. Alfred is absent between Beaubein and St. Antoine because of the former projects being in the way. Alfred's never crossed I-75 you can do that at Wilkins or Mack.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 15, 2023, 12:06:11 PM
Alfred Street is in the grid and in the right location all the way. It isn't going to serve much purpose to extend it any. The area there is where the Brewster Projects used to be. Alfred is absent between Beaubein and St. Antoine because of the former projects being in the way. Alfred's never crossed I-75 you can do that at Wilkins or Mack.
Before the Chrysler freeway was built along with the various urban renewal projects, Alfred Street was a continuous street along with the neighbooring streets.
http://gigapan.com/gigapans/147450
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on May 15, 2023, 03:01:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 15, 2023, 12:06:11 PM
Alfred Street is in the grid and in the right location all the way. It isn't going to serve much purpose to extend it any. The area there is where the Brewster Projects used to be. Alfred is absent between Beaubein and St. Antoine because of the former projects being in the way. Alfred's never crossed I-75 you can do that at Wilkins or Mack.
Before the Chrysler freeway was built along with the various urban renewal projects, Alfred Street was a continuous street along with the neighbooring streets.
http://gigapan.com/gigapans/147450
Yes but you don't need that many overpasses over the freeway. Wilkins and Mack work fine in that area.
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 12, 2023, 01:41:16 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 11, 2023, 08:26:49 PM
It is my belief that as originally planned I-75 was supposed to run closer to the river. This would be the reason that I-375 exists like it does and it was already built to Jefferson so they put it in use. I-75 curves three times in less than two miles, the interchange with I-375 and the Gratiot connector, the interchange with I-96 and another curve just after the I-96 interchange near the Ambassador Bridge. I think the route along the river was denied and what we have today is what we ended up with. It would make sense for I-75 to go all the way down to Jefferson, curving once instead of three times.
A long time ago i suggested that they remove all of I-375 and I-75 between I-94 and I-96 . This would remove all the freeways downtown except the Lodge. I never thought it was a good idea to do that but I was wishing downtown Detroit looked more like downtown Chicago. The problem today is that Detroit's freeway system was planned and built when the city had close to 2 million people so that is how the freeway system is built, it's overkill for today's population.
Let's not confuse a city's population loss with the traffic going through the city. As you well know, Flint and Saginaw have lost a massive % of their population the last several decades, but they sure get traffic through the area.
The cities lost population but the population just spread out pretty much. Like with Saginaw, the city had 98,000 in 1960 and Saginaw Township was a rural area, today Saginaw city has about 45,000 and Saginaw Township has about 40,000 everyone just moved further out but the population was still around. I noticed that Metro Detroit is more populated today than it was in 1950 when Detroit was at it's peak population. The inner cities should have done better at fixing the problems that the cities had, I'm not sure that Detroit has ever fully recovered from the 1967 riots I wish it would I'd love to see a city like Detroit booming again.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 28, 2023, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on May 12, 2023, 01:41:16 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 11, 2023, 08:26:49 PM
It is my belief that as originally planned I-75 was supposed to run closer to the river. This would be the reason that I-375 exists like it does and it was already built to Jefferson so they put it in use. I-75 curves three times in less than two miles, the interchange with I-375 and the Gratiot connector, the interchange with I-96 and another curve just after the I-96 interchange near the Ambassador Bridge. I think the route along the river was denied and what we have today is what we ended up with. It would make sense for I-75 to go all the way down to Jefferson, curving once instead of three times.
A long time ago i suggested that they remove all of I-375 and I-75 between I-94 and I-96 . This would remove all the freeways downtown except the Lodge. I never thought it was a good idea to do that but I was wishing downtown Detroit looked more like downtown Chicago. The problem today is that Detroit's freeway system was planned and built when the city had close to 2 million people so that is how the freeway system is built, it's overkill for today's population.
Let's not confuse a city's population loss with the traffic going through the city. As you well know, Flint and Saginaw have lost a massive % of their population the last several decades, but they sure get traffic through the area.
The cities lost population but the population just spread out pretty much. Like with Saginaw, the city had 98,000 in 1960 and Saginaw Township was a rural area, today Saginaw city has about 45,000 and Saginaw Township has about 40,000 everyone just moved further out but the population was still around. I noticed that Metro Detroit is more populated today than it was in 1950 when Detroit was at it's peak population. The inner cities should have done better at fixing the problems that the cities had, I'm not sure that Detroit has ever fully recovered from the 1967 riots I wish it would I'd love to see a city like Detroit booming again.
I've never been closer to Detroit than Ann Arbor. But I lived in St Louis for almost three decades. I think the problems of the two cities are similar but Detroit almost completely lost its white population (currently <10%) while St Louis is still fairly racially diverse (though still somewhat segregated with almost no white people living north of the Delmar Divide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delmar_Divide)). Most of the Central Corridor and the east part of the South Side are fairly integrated while the North Side remains primarily black and St Louis Hills in the SW corner of the city remains mostly white. While many of the poorer whites have moved to the suburbs/exurbs as have many poorer blacks (see Ferguson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest)), many city neighborhoods have undergone a rebirth and/or gentrified over the last forty years with people of all colors and backgrounds living along the Central Corridor and the near South Side. It was already happening in the 80's with the Central West End and Soulard, and now has spread to Lafayette Square, Midtown, DeBaliviere, Dogtown, and most recently Forest Park Southeast which has been rebranded as The Grove. In fact, the Central Corridor from Downtown to Forest Park along Highway 40 (I-64) is some of the most valuable property in the metro.
I don't know if this can happen in Detroit. I don't know if the economic base is still there. St Louis lost a lot of Fortune 500 over the years (General Dynamics and SW Bell moved, McDonnell-Douglas and Anheiser-Busch were bought out), newer businesses like Enterprise Rent-A-Car and Maritz have somewhat filled the gap and the old Anheiser-Busch Brewery is still going strong (in a continuing to gentrify neighborhood). Another comparison is Cleveland which also looked terminal but is also turning it around thanks to old anchors like the hospitals and museums around Case Western, new sports venues, the R&R Hall of Fame, and revitalized areas like The Flats. Cleveland also has several Fortune 500 companies and even pulled ADM out of Decatur, IL. The new sports venues and Corktown are good starts for Detroit but there's not much else going on.
To get back on topic, one good reason to remove I-375 is that it helps Downtown Detroit look more like Downtown Chicago. Of the current freeways only the old Congress, now the Eisenhower Expressway, was ever designed to enter the Downtown (through that iconic hole in the post office). The Kennedy/Dan Ryan is well west of Downtown and the Stephenson doesn't come close. One reason Downtown Chicago works so well is the El which radiates from downtown and moves a massive number of people; the Chicago Transit Authority moves 1.6 million people on an average weekday. Detroit only has that crap people-mover thing that never leaves downtown. Removing I-375 will also provide new housing stock. Some will bitch and moan that it'll become gentrified and drive out poorer residents. That happens but it's not like Detroit is lacking other inexpensive housing stock. The day Detroit starts worrying about too much gentrification is a sign that Detroit is coming back. That'll be a good thing.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 15, 2023, 03:32:15 PM
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on May 15, 2023, 03:01:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 15, 2023, 12:06:11 PM
Alfred Street is in the grid and in the right location all the way. It isn't going to serve much purpose to extend it any. The area there is where the Brewster Projects used to be. Alfred is absent between Beaubein and St. Antoine because of the former projects being in the way. Alfred's never crossed I-75 you can do that at Wilkins or Mack.
Before the Chrysler freeway was built along with the various urban renewal projects, Alfred Street was a continuous street along with the neighbooring streets.
http://gigapan.com/gigapans/147450
Yes but you don't need that many overpasses over the freeway. Wilkins and Mack work fine in that area.
The overpass already is going to exist, you are not building a new one. Besides, the image depicts very clearly a stub roadway, indicating it will extend west at some point. While it may not connect directly with Alfred, it'll certainly serve that area.
Quick question, has any new route number been officially announced for the rebuilt route? I presume an Interstate designation would obviously no longer apply.
(I'm sorry, I'd go through the thread but it's pretty long, figured someone here's been paying closer attention could probably answer faster)
Thanks!
Not to my knowledge, but then again, I am one state to the west.
'M-375'?
Mike
A route number is pure speculation at this point. It's also conceivably possible that the end product will be downloaded to the city and not have a route number at all.
Quote from: cbeach40 on June 08, 2023, 10:15:14 AM
Quick question, has any new route number been officially announced for the rebuilt route? I presume an Interstate designation would obviously no longer apply.
(I'm sorry, I'd go through the thread but it's pretty long, figured someone here's been paying closer attention could probably answer faster)
Thanks!
Knowing MDOT they'll probably build it then turn it over to local control. There really isn't much of a reason to keep it a state highway.
Quote from: cbeach40 on June 08, 2023, 10:15:14 AM
Quick question, has any new route number been officially announced for the rebuilt route? I presume an Interstate designation would obviously no longer apply.
(I'm sorry, I'd go through the thread but it's pretty long, figured someone here's been paying closer attention could probably answer faster)
Thanks!
M-666? :)
Okay, thanks everyone.
I'm working on the signs for the Ontario approaches to the border in advance of the GHIB opening and just wanted to be sure of what was going on there before devoting too much time to some ideas.
Quote from: cbeach40 on June 09, 2023, 10:16:55 AM
Okay, thanks everyone.
I'm working on the signs for the Ontario approaches to the border in advance of the GHIB opening and just wanted to be sure of what was going on there before devoting too much time to some ideas.
The Gordie Howe Bridge isn't going to have a route number, just like the Ambassador Bridge doesn't. It'll just have ramps leading to and from the bridge.
If the proposed Gordie Howe International Bridge had been given a number, M-401 would have a no-brainer. Maybe the signs will say To ON 401.
Quote from: cbeach40 on June 09, 2023, 10:16:55 AM
Okay, thanks everyone.
I'm working on the signs for the Ontario approaches to the border in advance of the GHIB opening and just wanted to be sure of what was going on there before devoting too much time to some ideas.
GHB is a long way from I-375. There wouldn't be any notice of whatever I-375 becomes from the bridge.
Quote from: GaryV on June 09, 2023, 12:12:54 PM
Quote from: cbeach40 on June 09, 2023, 10:16:55 AM
Okay, thanks everyone.
I'm working on the signs for the Ontario approaches to the border in advance of the GHIB opening and just wanted to be sure of what was going on there before devoting too much time to some ideas.
GHB is a long way from I-375. There wouldn't be any notice of whatever I-375 becomes from the bridge.
Since the number will be open, make the Michigan Gordie Howe approach I-375. Then resign the reconstructed I-375 section as M-401. :poke:
Quote from: cbeach40 on June 08, 2023, 10:15:14 AM
Quick question, has any new route number been officially announced for the rebuilt route? I presume an Interstate designation would obviously no longer apply.
(I'm sorry, I'd go through the thread but it's pretty long, figured someone here's been paying closer attention could probably answer faster)
Thanks!
There's discussion in the Michigan Notes thread, starting around post #1400, that it will be a trunkline but no number has been definitively announced. MDOT's animation videos showing the flow of traffic through the proposed I-75 interchange have "M-XX" shields on the signs.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 09, 2023, 11:18:25 AM
If the proposed Gordie Howe International Bridge had been given a number, M-401 would have a no-brainer. Maybe the signs will say To ON 401.
I would be very surprised. There is no "TO ON-402" on the signs in Port Huron, and no "TO ON-17B" ever on the signs in Sault Ste. Marie. And that's without the likes of the perennial thorn that is the Detroit International Bridge Co. I don't doubt the DIBC would get a lawsuit going if they think anything MDOT does, even putting a route shield on a sign, promotes the use of the Gordie Howe Bridge over the Ambassador Bridge.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 11:05:12 AM
Quote from: cbeach40 on June 09, 2023, 10:16:55 AM
Okay, thanks everyone.
I'm working on the signs for the Ontario approaches to the border in advance of the GHIB opening and just wanted to be sure of what was going on there before devoting too much time to some ideas.
The Gordie Howe Bridge isn't going to have a route number, just like the Ambassador Bridge doesn't. It'll just have ramps leading to and from the bridge.
Oh I know, I am working on that project. :D
Quote from: GaryV on June 09, 2023, 12:12:54 PM
GHB is a long way from I-375. There wouldn't be any notice of whatever I-375 becomes from the bridge.
this is true, but the existing signage at the future GHIB/Ambassador/Tunnel decision points will need to be revised for when it opens. Right now I'm just playing around with ideas for them all.
MDOT doesn't go out of their way to make a ramp have a route number. Usually when a freeway is built the old road gets turned over to local control like US-10 between Saginaw and Detroit after I-75 was built or US-16 in the entire state after I-96 was built, M-78 and M-21 lost several miles after I-69 was built, US-12 was rerouted after I-94 was built so I don't see how anyone can think that MDOT is going to be putting a route number on the ramps to the Gordie Howe Bridge.
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
I don't think so. I'm still for M-375 replacing I-375.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits. They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 09, 2023, 09:58:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits. They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
And thus cave to the purists who believe 696 and 275 are mislabeled as even 3di's because they don't meet their parents at both ends. And 496 and 475 aren't bypasses. /s
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 09, 2023, 09:58:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits. They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
*citation needed*
Boulevarding I-375 is only one specific action and not motivated by any singular distaste for 3dis.
Quote from: Henry on June 09, 2023, 09:36:48 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
I don't think so. I'm still for M-375 replacing I-375.
Why? There is no reason to make such a short state highway when other numbers are available in the area. If that's the case then it'll be an unsigned highway. Just because it was I-375 doesn't mean that MDOT has to go make it M-375.
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 09, 2023, 09:58:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits. They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
MDOT feels as they are complete building any additional Interstate highways and won't apply to make anything an Interstate in the future. They can build highways to Interstate standards but they don't have to be Interstate highways. They probably just never applied to make M-6 an Interstate and really it's fine the way it is. They won't be removing anymore of the I-x75's except for I-375, the I-x96's will be staying put too. MDOT just doesn't see the need to make everything into an Interstate.
Quote from: GaryV on June 10, 2023, 07:34:47 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 09, 2023, 09:58:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits. They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
And thus cave to the purists who believe 696 and 275 are mislabeled as even 3di's because they don't meet their parents at both ends. And 496 and 475 aren't bypasses. /s
I-696 and I-275 both end at an Interstate at both ends though which is acceptable for an even 3di. i-496 and I-475 are bypasses of I-96 and I-75 respectively.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 10, 2023, 09:51:43 AM
i-496 and I-475 are bypasses of I-96 and I-75 respectively.
Except they bypass thru the city instead of around, which some purists don't like.
Quote from: GaryV on June 10, 2023, 01:14:42 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 10, 2023, 09:51:43 AM
i-496 and I-475 are bypasses of I-96 and I-75 respectively.
Except they bypass thru the city instead of around, which some purists don't like.
I-96 and I-75 bypass downtown, that is fine.
Quote from: Rothman on June 10, 2023, 09:15:23 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 09, 2023, 09:58:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits. They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
*citation needed*
Boulevarding I-375 is only one specific action and not motivated by any singular distaste for 3dis.
Quote from: Rothman on June 10, 2023, 09:15:23 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 09, 2023, 09:58:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits. They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
*citation needed*
Boulevarding I-375 is only one specific action and not motivated by any singular distaste for 3dis.
Please cut the crap and quit trying to cause problems. It's obvious that you just don't like me and that's fine, but there's absolutely no reason to deliberately go around stirring up trouble and trying to cause me problems with moderation here. For your information, MDOT removed signage on I-296 and left it as an unsigned interstate in the early '80's, saying it was too confusing:
http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/I-296.html
When the M-6 freeway was created, linking I-96 and I-196, the same reasoning was used for not giving it an interstate number. Too confusing.
They're in the process of removing I-375 and are in the discussion stages for doing the same thing to I-194. There was even talk of bulldozing part of I-475 through Flint and turning it into a boulevard, but I think that came from their mayor.
At any rate, it seems apparent to me what they're trying to do, and that is my opinion.
I don't go making demands of you or anyone else. Now please drop the attitude and let's make an effort to get along, ok?
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 10, 2023, 11:48:51 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 10, 2023, 09:15:23 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 09, 2023, 09:58:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits. They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
*citation needed*
Boulevarding I-375 is only one specific action and not motivated by any singular distaste for 3dis.
Quote from: Rothman on June 10, 2023, 09:15:23 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 09, 2023, 09:58:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits. They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
*citation needed*
Boulevarding I-375 is only one specific action and not motivated by any singular distaste for 3dis.
Please cut the crap and quit trying to cause problems. It's obvious that you just don't like me and that's fine, but there's absolutely no reason to deliberately go around stirring up trouble and trying to cause me problems with moderation here. For your information, MDOT removed signage on I-296 and left it as an unsigned interstate in the early '80's, saying it was too confusing:
http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/I-296.html
When the M-6 freeway was created, linking I-96 and I-196, the same reasoning was used for not giving it an interstate number. Too confusing.
They're in the process of removing I-375 and are in the discussion stages for doing the same thing to I-194. There was even talk of bulldozing part of I-475 through Flint and turning it into a boulevard, but I think that came from their mayor.
At any rate, it seems apparent to me what they're trying to do, and that is my opinion.
I don't go making demands of you or anyone else. Now please drop the attitude and let's make an effort to get along, ok?
Well, that escalated quickly.
Read the citation. I-296 wasn't removed solely because it was inherently confusing as a 3di. Rather, it was the complicated concurrency that caused the removal of the Interstate shields.
Again, boulevarding 3dis is being done mainly to improve urban planning and development, rather than MDOT simply detesting 3di shields and designations.
I don't know what the story with I-194 is, but it wouldn't surprise me if MDOT was looking to save money. Maybe they plan to replace the cloverleaf with I-94 with something that isn't freeway/freeway? It wouldn't be the only case of a freeway ending at I-94 with at-grades at the ramps. Just look at the new US 31/I-94 interchange. The main through movements may not have to stop, but it most definitely does not meet interstate standards. Or the DDI between US 127 and I-94.
Quote from: vdeane on June 11, 2023, 03:03:35 PM
I don't know what the story with I-194 is, but it wouldn't surprise me if MDOT was looking to save money. Maybe they plan to replace the cloverleaf with I-94 with something that isn't freeway/freeway? It wouldn't be the only case of a freeway ending at I-94 with at-grades at the ramps. Just look at the new US 31/I-94 interchange. The main through movements may not have to stop, but it most definitely does not meet interstate standards. Or the DDI between US 127 and I-94.
I-194 is an interstate though, US-31 and 127 are just US highways.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 11, 2023, 07:10:37 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 11, 2023, 03:03:35 PM
I don't know what the story with I-194 is, but it wouldn't surprise me if MDOT was looking to save money. Maybe they plan to replace the cloverleaf with I-94 with something that isn't freeway/freeway? It wouldn't be the only case of a freeway ending at I-94 with at-grades at the ramps. Just look at the new US 31/I-94 interchange. The main through movements may not have to stop, but it most definitely does not meet interstate standards. Or the DDI between US 127 and I-94.
I-194 is an interstate though, US-31 and 127 are just US highways.
It might not be for much longer. MDOT is doing a study where one of the alternatives might be removal, as reported in the Michigan Notes thread.
Quote from: afguy on June 07, 2023, 06:15:23 PM
MDOT will be hosting a public house for the I-194 PEL study. From what I've seen from the long-term transportation plan for Battle Creek, the goal is either to do a full reconstruction or downgrade it to a boulevard similar to the I-375 plan in Detroit.
QuoteThe PEL study will focus on the I-194 corridor from the north side of the I-94/I-194 interchange to Fountain Street in Battle Creek. I-194 plays a significant role in Calhoun County by providing regional connections to I-94 and downtown Battle Creek. The PEL study is a collaborative process that considers environmental, community, and economic goals in transportation planning.
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/06/07/mdot-public-open-house-for-i-194-pel-study-in-calhoun-county (https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/06/07/mdot-public-open-house-for-i-194-pel-study-in-calhoun-county)
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 10, 2023, 11:48:51 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 10, 2023, 09:15:23 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 09, 2023, 09:58:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits. They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
*citation needed*
Boulevarding I-375 is only one specific action and not motivated by any singular distaste for 3dis.
Quote from: Rothman on June 10, 2023, 09:15:23 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 09, 2023, 09:58:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits. They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
*citation needed*
Boulevarding I-375 is only one specific action and not motivated by any singular distaste for 3dis.
Please cut the crap and quit trying to cause problems. It's obvious that you just don't like me and that's fine, but there's absolutely no reason to deliberately go around stirring up trouble and trying to cause me problems with moderation here. For your information, MDOT removed signage on I-296 and left it as an unsigned interstate in the early '80's, saying it was too confusing:
http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/I-296.html
When the M-6 freeway was created, linking I-96 and I-196, the same reasoning was used for not giving it an interstate number. Too confusing.
They're in the process of removing I-375 and are in the discussion stages for doing the same thing to I-194. There was even talk of bulldozing part of I-475 through Flint and turning it into a boulevard, but I think that came from their mayor.
At any rate, it seems apparent to me what they're trying to do, and that is my opinion.
I don't go making demands of you or anyone else. Now please drop the attitude and let's make an effort to get along, ok?
If that's your opinion, state it as such. The issue I have is that you state stuff as fact, with nothing to back it up and not even any explanation of the rationale of your own
opinions: "MDOT doesn't like Interstate highways, especially 3dis." "This project was rather costly with no benefit." "Converting this interchange to a roundabout has no point." "This project made the roadway less safe." Rather than just crabbing and name-calling, how about giving some specifics about why your
opinion is what it is? No, it's not a demand and it's not required on the forum. But if you can't even explain your own reasoning behind it then your
opinion is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. You may not agree with what I say, and that's okay. But I at least provide rationale behind my opinions.
That MDOT didn't seek a 3di designation for what is M-6 is hardly evidence that its overall position is that it doesn't like Interstate highways. If you want to make that case, you're going to have to come up with something a lot more definitive to make that statement as fact.
I-375 is different in that it would've been too expensive out of proportion with the benefits of keeping it an interstate, besides being politically unpopular with the City of Detroit.
I-194 is not the barrier to development or accessibility for Battle Creek that I-394 was for Detroit. It doesn't separate any previously-established neighborhoods. It's also the only direct connection to downtown from I-94. Whatever road remains there still has to cross a busy rail line and the Kalamazoo River, and you can't feasibly do that without maintaining the grade separations at Columbia Ave and Dickman Rd. The existing cloverleaf interchange at I-94 is also about the cheapest way to maintain a crossing at that location.
My prediction is that I-194 will be rebuilt largely as it exists now, with only minor design improvements at the interchanges.
Quote from: JREwing78 on June 12, 2023, 02:02:20 AM
I-375 is different in that it would've been too expensive out of proportion with the benefits of keeping it an interstate, besides being politically unpopular with the City of Detroit.
I-194 is not the barrier to development or accessibility for Battle Creek that I-394 was for Detroit. It doesn't separate any previously-established neighborhoods. It's also the only direct connection to downtown from I-94. Whatever road remains there still has to cross a busy rail line and the Kalamazoo River, and you can't feasibly do that without maintaining the grade separations at Columbia Ave and Dickman Rd. The existing cloverleaf interchange at I-94 is also about the cheapest way to maintain a crossing at that location.
My prediction is that I-194 will be rebuilt largely as it exists now, with only minor design improvements at the interchanges.
I think it would be dumb to have an intersection at Dickman while maintaining grade separation for the rail line though it would be possible. I disagree that grade separation would be needed at Columbia Av. I think the Columbia Av viaduct should be rebuilt with adequate sidewalks and probably bike lanes, but that's my opinion and separate from whether a viaduct is needed. There is also the possibility of intersections at Golden Av and Burnham St, though the latter would be especially unwise with the current interchange at Dickman.
Personally, I think the highway should probably remain much like it is with perhaps a smaller interchange at Dickman. The bridge over the railroad tracks are absolutely necessary as the rail line has mostly at-grade crossings through Battle Creek and the highway viaduct is undoubtedly very important for emergency traffic.
You are completely correct that I-375 is a far different situation than I-194. I doubt there is much clamor in Battle Creek to remove their highway and most probably see it as unobtrusive. Other than making the crossings more bike and pedestrian-friendly, I really don't see the need to change what is currently there.
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 10, 2023, 11:48:51 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 10, 2023, 09:15:23 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 09, 2023, 09:58:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits. They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
*citation needed*
Boulevarding I-375 is only one specific action and not motivated by any singular distaste for 3dis.
Quote from: Rothman on June 10, 2023, 09:15:23 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 09, 2023, 09:58:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits. They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
*citation needed*
Boulevarding I-375 is only one specific action and not motivated by any singular distaste for 3dis.
Please cut the crap and quit trying to cause problems. It's obvious that you just don't like me and that's fine, but there's absolutely no reason to deliberately go around stirring up trouble and trying to cause me problems with moderation here. For your information, MDOT removed signage on I-296 and left it as an unsigned interstate in the early '80's, saying it was too confusing:
http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/I-296.html
When the M-6 freeway was created, linking I-96 and I-196, the same reasoning was used for not giving it an interstate number. Too confusing.
They're in the process of removing I-375 and are in the discussion stages for doing the same thing to I-194. There was even talk of bulldozing part of I-475 through Flint and turning it into a boulevard, but I think that came from their mayor.
At any rate, it seems apparent to me what they're trying to do, and that is my opinion.
I don't go making demands of you or anyone else. Now please drop the attitude and let's make an effort to get along, ok?
At some point, I hope you would do some introspection and look at how you are behaving in these exchanges. For any of Rothman's faults, he isn't the one who advocated for another user to gouge their frontal lobe out just for disagreeing with him. Who did that again?
You constantly take any dispute you have with another user and make it nuclear. Does everything you disagree with have to be the worst thing in the world?
Pfft. I have no faults.
Quote from: Molandfreak on June 30, 2023, 04:46:32 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 10, 2023, 11:48:51 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 10, 2023, 09:15:23 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 09, 2023, 09:58:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits. They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
*citation needed*
Boulevarding I-375 is only one specific action and not motivated by any singular distaste for 3dis.
Quote from: Rothman on June 10, 2023, 09:15:23 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 09, 2023, 09:58:36 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
If you're going to make I-375 into a new route number just reroute M-3 down the boulevard and call it a day. I can see that route having a route number but not the GHB.
MDOT doesn't like Interstate Highways, especially 3-digits. They refused to give M-6 an interstate number because they said it would be "too confusing" having several X-96 interstates, and now apparently they're working on removing the rest of the 3-digits in the state.
*citation needed*
Boulevarding I-375 is only one specific action and not motivated by any singular distaste for 3dis.
Please cut the crap and quit trying to cause problems. It's obvious that you just don't like me and that's fine, but there's absolutely no reason to deliberately go around stirring up trouble and trying to cause me problems with moderation here. For your information, MDOT removed signage on I-296 and left it as an unsigned interstate in the early '80's, saying it was too confusing:
http://www.michiganhighways.org/listings/I-296.html
When the M-6 freeway was created, linking I-96 and I-196, the same reasoning was used for not giving it an interstate number. Too confusing.
They're in the process of removing I-375 and are in the discussion stages for doing the same thing to I-194. There was even talk of bulldozing part of I-475 through Flint and turning it into a boulevard, but I think that came from their mayor.
At any rate, it seems apparent to me what they're trying to do, and that is my opinion.
I don't go making demands of you or anyone else. Now please drop the attitude and let's make an effort to get along, ok?
At some point, I hope you would do some introspection and look at how you are behaving in these exchanges. For any of Rothman's faults, he isn't the one who advocated for another user to gouge their frontal lobe out just for disagreeing with him. Who did that again?
You constantly take any dispute you have with another user and make it nuclear. Does everything you disagree with have to be the worst thing in the world?
Please point out where I made any such reference. I offered an olive branch here and apparently it wasn't accepted.
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 30, 2023, 06:34:46 PM
I offered an olive branch here and apparently it wasn't accepted.
Yes, and in response to it not being accepted here, you chose to be an abusive twat over it as usual. Nobody is forcing you to even respond to Rothman's comments, and there are no rules against being snarky.
Quote from: Terry Shea on June 30, 2023, 06:34:46 PM
Please point out where I made any such reference.
I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about since the mods supposedly have been communicating with you. Stop trying to blame your problems with the admin team on Rothman, because nobody is forcing you to respond to him in the first place, let alone single-handedly escalate these conflicts.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on June 09, 2023, 01:41:36 PM
Quote from: cbeach40 on June 08, 2023, 10:15:14 AM
Quick question, has any new route number been officially announced for the rebuilt route? I presume an Interstate designation would obviously no longer apply.
(I'm sorry, I'd go through the thread but it's pretty long, figured someone here's been paying closer attention could probably answer faster)
Thanks!
There's discussion in the Michigan Notes thread, starting around post #1400, that it will be a trunkline but no number has been definitively announced. MDOT's animation videos showing the flow of traffic through the proposed I-75 interchange have "M-XX" shields on the signs.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 09, 2023, 11:18:25 AM
If the proposed Gordie Howe International Bridge had been given a number, M-401 would have a no-brainer. Maybe the signs will say To ON 401.
I would be very surprised. There is no "TO ON-402" on the signs in Port Huron, and no "TO ON-17B" ever on the signs in Sault Ste. Marie. And that's without the likes of the perennial thorn that is the Detroit International Bridge Co. I don't doubt the DIBC would get a lawsuit going if they think anything MDOT does, even putting a route shield on a sign, promotes the use of the Gordie Howe Bridge over the Ambassador Bridge.
But in each of those border crossings, there is only one crossing available. In Detroit, you will have three crossings at that part of the border. I can see MDOT at the bare minimum installing supplementary signs stating,
"TO [shield] 401 [/shield] EAST
London/Toronto
USE GORDIE HOWE BRIDGE (and/or)
EXIT xx
-----
WINDSOR, CANADA (Business District)
USE AMBASSADOR BRIDGE or TUNNEL
I think by that time, most people using the older bridge and Tunnel will still be bound for Windsor proper, while those using the GHB will be using it to bypass Windsor altogether, so by leaving Windsor off the GHB signs would be acceptable.
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
Getting off-topic here but if any number is used for the Gordie Howe Bridge it should be '9' or something like 975.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcToaERpooxWgRcsFn7Y820GplLY9DGcbufUHQ&usqp=CAU)
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
Why make it any more confusing than it needs to be?
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 04, 2023, 04:42:45 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
Why make it any more confusing than it needs to be?
And why would they put a Michigan-related highway number in Ontario? If that few hundred yards of highway between the bridge and 401 needs a number, just extend 401, except it isn't probably going to be all freeway.
Quote from: GaryV on July 04, 2023, 05:51:00 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 04, 2023, 04:42:45 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
Why make it any more confusing than it needs to be?
And why would they put a Michigan-related highway number in Ontario? If that few hundred yards of highway between the bridge and 401 needs a number, just extend 401, except it isn't probably going to be all freeway.
Hwy 401 ends at the bridge, and the bridge directly connects to I-75 via an interchange. There's no connector highway.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
That makes no sense and makes things confusing. There isn't no freeway connecting to the Gordie Howe Bridge it's a ramp and isn't worthy of a route number of any kind.
Quote from: skluth on July 04, 2023, 03:01:31 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
Getting off-topic here but if any number is used for the Gordie Howe Bridge it should be '9' or something like 975.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcToaERpooxWgRcsFn7Y820GplLY9DGcbufUHQ&usqp=CAU)
Really? Why is this ramp to the bridge worthy of a route number? Knowing MDOT there isn't going to be a route number. MDOT isn't giving a ramp connecting to Canada a route number.
Quote from: GaryV on July 04, 2023, 05:51:00 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 04, 2023, 04:42:45 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
Why make it any more confusing than it needs to be?
And why would they put a Michigan-related highway number in Ontario? If that few hundred yards of highway between the bridge and 401 needs a number, just extend 401, except it isn't probably going to be all freeway.
Right. It's a ramp connecting to a bridge that's all it is.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 05, 2023, 03:19:24 PM
Quote from: GaryV on July 04, 2023, 05:51:00 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 04, 2023, 04:42:45 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
Why make it any more confusing than it needs to be?
And why would they put a Michigan-related highway number in Ontario? If that few hundred yards of highway between the bridge and 401 needs a number, just extend 401, except it isn't probably going to be all freeway.
Right. It's a ramp connecting to a bridge that's all it is.
Yup. The ramps to/from I-75 to the north edge of the bridge property will be about 1/2 mile long by my rough guess. I think some folks have the impression that there's going to be some sort of longer connector road between the two but there's no room for one.
The US Port of Entry map at the bridge's web site shows this pretty well:
https://www.gordiehoweinternationalbridge.com/en/gallery#!nav-maps
Quote from: catch22 on July 05, 2023, 06:09:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 05, 2023, 03:19:24 PM
Quote from: GaryV on July 04, 2023, 05:51:00 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 04, 2023, 04:42:45 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
Why make it any more confusing than it needs to be?
And why would they put a Michigan-related highway number in Ontario? If that few hundred yards of highway between the bridge and 401 needs a number, just extend 401, except it isn't probably going to be all freeway.
Right. It's a ramp connecting to a bridge that's all it is.
Yup. The ramps to/from I-75 to the north edge of the bridge property will be about 1/2 mile long by my rough guess. I think some folks have the impression that there's going to be some sort of longer connector road between the two but there's no room for one.
The US Port of Entry map at the bridge's web site shows this pretty well:
https://www.gordiehoweinternationalbridge.com/en/gallery#!nav-maps
We are talking 2 different things here. The roadway at the north end of the bridge, in Michigan, could be considered for a Michigan highway number (although unlikely).
However what was originally proposed in this sub-thread was to have the ramp on the south end of the bridge in Ontario numbered 375. That makes no sense whatsoever.
Quote from: GaryV on July 06, 2023, 07:47:18 AM
Quote from: catch22 on July 05, 2023, 06:09:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 05, 2023, 03:19:24 PM
Quote from: GaryV on July 04, 2023, 05:51:00 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 04, 2023, 04:42:45 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
Why make it any more confusing than it needs to be?
And why would they put a Michigan-related highway number in Ontario? If that few hundred yards of highway between the bridge and 401 needs a number, just extend 401, except it isn't probably going to be all freeway.
Right. It's a ramp connecting to a bridge that's all it is.
Yup. The ramps to/from I-75 to the north edge of the bridge property will be about 1/2 mile long by my rough guess. I think some folks have the impression that there's going to be some sort of longer connector road between the two but there's no room for one.
The US Port of Entry map at the bridge's web site shows this pretty well:
https://www.gordiehoweinternationalbridge.com/en/gallery#!nav-maps
We are talking 2 different things here. The roadway at the north end of the bridge, in Michigan, could be considered for a Michigan highway number (although unlikely).
However what was originally proposed in this sub-thread was to have the ramp on the south end of the bridge in Ontario numbered 375. That makes no sense whatsoever.
Having a route number of any kind makes no sense at all. There are four crossings between the US and Canada in Michigan, with this new bridge it'll be five. The Blue Water and International bridges already have an Interstate highway leading up to the border so it makes sense there. Where it doesn't make any sense is in Detroit, with the Ambassador Bridge there are signs simply saying Bridge to Canada without a need for a route number, same with the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel having signs Tunnel to Canada. So I'm just wondering why we would need to put a route number on this bridge especially a number that has already been used in Detroit and will cause confusion. I don't see the point in it at all and don't think MDOT is going to waste their time making the leadup ramps to the Gordie Howe Bridge into a state highway or Interstate. I know you and others on this forum live in Michigan too and are just as up to date on most things in this state as I am. It would be out of MDOT's nature to do this.
I absolutely agree. No route number is needed for what will be essentially a long ramp with no exits (except maybe for those who work in customs, duty-free shop, etc.)
I could see MDOT putting up small blue "RAMP" signs though, like they have around other big intersections in metro Detroit. For example,
RAMP
I-75 to
Gordie Howe
Bridge
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 05, 2023, 03:18:21 PM
Quote from: skluth on July 04, 2023, 03:01:31 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
Getting off-topic here but if any number is used for the Gordie Howe Bridge it should be '9' or something like 975.
(Picture deleted)
Really? Why is this ramp to the bridge worthy of a route number? Knowing MDOT there isn't going to be a route number. MDOT isn't giving a ramp connecting to Canada a route number.
I said
IF!! I agree no number is needed. But
IF there were a number, it should honor Howe.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 06, 2023, 09:43:59 AM
Quote from: GaryV on July 06, 2023, 07:47:18 AM
Quote from: catch22 on July 05, 2023, 06:09:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 05, 2023, 03:19:24 PM
Quote from: GaryV on July 04, 2023, 05:51:00 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 04, 2023, 04:42:45 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
Why make it any more confusing than it needs to be?
And why would they put a Michigan-related highway number in Ontario? If that few hundred yards of highway between the bridge and 401 needs a number, just extend 401, except it isn't probably going to be all freeway.
Right. It's a ramp connecting to a bridge that's all it is.
Yup. The ramps to/from I-75 to the north edge of the bridge property will be about 1/2 mile long by my rough guess. I think some folks have the impression that there's going to be some sort of longer connector road between the two but there's no room for one.
The US Port of Entry map at the bridge's web site shows this pretty well:
https://www.gordiehoweinternationalbridge.com/en/gallery#!nav-maps
We are talking 2 different things here. The roadway at the north end of the bridge, in Michigan, could be considered for a Michigan highway number (although unlikely).
However what was originally proposed in this sub-thread was to have the ramp on the south end of the bridge in Ontario numbered 375. That makes no sense whatsoever.
Having a route number of any kind makes no sense at all. There are four crossings between the US and Canada in Michigan, with this new bridge it'll be five. The Blue Water and International bridges already have an Interstate highway leading up to the border so it makes sense there. Where it doesn't make any sense is in Detroit, with the Ambassador Bridge there are signs simply saying Bridge to Canada without a need for a route number, same with the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel having signs Tunnel to Canada. So I'm just wondering why we would need to put a route number on this bridge especially a number that has already been used in Detroit and will cause confusion. I don't see the point in it at all and don't think MDOT is going to waste their time making the leadup ramps to the Gordie Howe Bridge into a state highway or Interstate. I know you and others on this forum live in Michigan too and are just as up to date on most things in this state as I am. It would be out of MDOT's nature to do this.
I think a lot of people are thinking "ON 401 will end at the border and that will leave a gap in the numbering, we need to add one for connectivity" without considering that Ontario doesn't work that way. The 400-series highways that end at bridges end AT the bridge, not ON the bridge.
Quote from: skluth on July 06, 2023, 12:49:13 PM
I said IF!! I agree no number is needed. But IF there were a number, it should honor Howe.
This has already been covered. No route number.
Quote from: cbeach40 on June 09, 2023, 03:17:22 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 11:05:12 AM
The Gordie Howe Bridge isn't going to have a route number, just like the Ambassador Bridge doesn't. It'll just have ramps leading to and from the bridge.
Oh I know, I am working on that project. :D
Quote from: cbeach40 on July 06, 2023, 01:18:52 PM
Quote from: skluth on July 06, 2023, 12:49:13 PM
I said IF!! I agree no number is needed. But IF there were a number, it should honor Howe.
This has already been covered. No route number.
Quote from: cbeach40 on June 09, 2023, 03:17:22 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 09, 2023, 11:05:12 AM
The Gordie Howe Bridge isn't going to have a route number, just like the Ambassador Bridge doesn't. It'll just have ramps leading to and from the bridge.
Oh I know, I am working on that project. :D
I prefer that international crossings not have route numbers. Otherwise if forces you to have a passport to clinch the route.
Quote from: skluth on July 06, 2023, 12:49:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 05, 2023, 03:18:21 PM
Quote from: skluth on July 04, 2023, 03:01:31 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
Getting off-topic here but if any number is used for the Gordie Howe Bridge it should be '9' or something like 975.
(Picture deleted)
Really? Why is this ramp to the bridge worthy of a route number? Knowing MDOT there isn't going to be a route number. MDOT isn't giving a ramp connecting to Canada a route number.
I said IF!! I agree no number is needed. But IF there were a number, it should honor Howe.
https://youtu.be/UaFl6CkA0mA
Quote from: cbeach40 on July 06, 2023, 01:18:52 PM
Quote from: skluth on July 06, 2023, 12:49:13 PM
I said IF!! I agree no number is needed. But IF there were a number, it should honor Howe.
This has already been covered. No route number.
Nice job missing the point again...
Well, if that's the point, then perhaps there are better venues (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?board=20.0) for this discussion.
Quote from: GaryV on July 06, 2023, 10:01:11 AM
I absolutely agree. No route number is needed for what will be essentially a long ramp with no exits (except maybe for those who work in customs, duty-free shop, etc.)
I could see MDOT putting up small blue "RAMP" signs though, like they have around other big intersections in metro Detroit. For example,
RAMP
I-75 to
Gordie Howe
Bridge
I think too especially needed would be signs that indicate that the exit takes you into Canada with maybe a No Reentry to the USA or something like that.
Quote from: vdeane on July 06, 2023, 12:55:55 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 06, 2023, 09:43:59 AM
Quote from: GaryV on July 06, 2023, 07:47:18 AM
Quote from: catch22 on July 05, 2023, 06:09:56 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 05, 2023, 03:19:24 PM
Quote from: GaryV on July 04, 2023, 05:51:00 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 04, 2023, 04:42:45 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
Why make it any more confusing than it needs to be?
And why would they put a Michigan-related highway number in Ontario? If that few hundred yards of highway between the bridge and 401 needs a number, just extend 401, except it isn't probably going to be all freeway.
Right. It's a ramp connecting to a bridge that's all it is.
Yup. The ramps to/from I-75 to the north edge of the bridge property will be about 1/2 mile long by my rough guess. I think some folks have the impression that there's going to be some sort of longer connector road between the two but there's no room for one.
The US Port of Entry map at the bridge's web site shows this pretty well:
https://www.gordiehoweinternationalbridge.com/en/gallery#!nav-maps
We are talking 2 different things here. The roadway at the north end of the bridge, in Michigan, could be considered for a Michigan highway number (although unlikely).
However what was originally proposed in this sub-thread was to have the ramp on the south end of the bridge in Ontario numbered 375. That makes no sense whatsoever.
Having a route number of any kind makes no sense at all. There are four crossings between the US and Canada in Michigan, with this new bridge it'll be five. The Blue Water and International bridges already have an Interstate highway leading up to the border so it makes sense there. Where it doesn't make any sense is in Detroit, with the Ambassador Bridge there are signs simply saying Bridge to Canada without a need for a route number, same with the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel having signs Tunnel to Canada. So I'm just wondering why we would need to put a route number on this bridge especially a number that has already been used in Detroit and will cause confusion. I don't see the point in it at all and don't think MDOT is going to waste their time making the leadup ramps to the Gordie Howe Bridge into a state highway or Interstate. I know you and others on this forum live in Michigan too and are just as up to date on most things in this state as I am. It would be out of MDOT's nature to do this.
I think a lot of people are thinking "ON 401 will end at the border and that will leave a gap in the numbering, we need to add one for connectivity" without considering that Ontario doesn't work that way. The 400-series highways that end at bridges end AT the bridge, not ON the bridge.
I think that even if it did it wouldn't require Michigan to make a ramp leading a bridge over the border into a route number.
Quote from: GaryV on July 04, 2023, 05:51:00 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 04, 2023, 04:42:45 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
Why make it any more confusing than it needs to be?
And why would they put a Michigan-related highway number in Ontario? If that few hundred yards of highway between the bridge and 401 needs a number, just extend 401, except it isn't probably going to be all freeway.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 05, 2023, 03:15:59 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 04, 2023, 12:56:25 PM
This will likely be a completely impractical and hair-brained idea, but once existing 375 is converted into a boulevard, the 375 designation should be shifted to the freeway connecting the Gordie Howe International Bridge with ON 401.
That makes no sense and makes things confusing. There isn't no freeway connecting to the Gordie Howe Bridge it's a ramp and isn't worthy of a route number of any kind.
I-375 should just be dead and buried once the boulevard gets built. And I don't see the need for any number on the Gordie Howe Bridge. Neither the Ambassador Bridge nor the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel carries one, so that argument is useless.
It just needs signs saying to the effect 'BRIDGE TO CANADA' (with the appropriate flags) and 'TO [ON 401]', also an 'oops' turnaround/return lane. That can be adjusted whenever the checkpoints are eliminated, of course.
Mike
I saw that article mentioned on an other forum (https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?25777-Interstate-375-to-be-transformed-into-street-level-boulevard&p=638535#post638535) and some might think of unintended consequences.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/parts-of-i-375-replacement-in-detroit-would-be-9-lanes-wide-and-community-is-concerned/ar-AA1ksGn3?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=a5e2295cf93c458db34c80e176851adf&ei=71
QuoteThe Michigan Department of Transportation plans to review updated traffic data and possibly reduce the size of some of the intersections envisioned in its Interstate 375 replacement project.
The efforts come as more voices raise concerns about whether the project as described to date would truly address issues that backers have given for supporting it, namely as a way to reconnect east-side neighborhoods with Detroit's downtown and to somehow address the elimination of Black Bottom and Paradise Valley to highway building and urban renewal projects decades ago.
Some intersections, when including dual turn lanes, for instance, would be nine lanes across, although much of the design envisions three lanes in each direction.
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Detroit Councilwoman Angela Whitfield-Calloway summed up the concerns of some critics in a memo posted on social media Nov. 15 when she wrote that "to present and package a nine-lane highway as 'reconnecting' is disingenuous, dangerous and unacceptable. For these reasons, I will vehemently oppose any proposed project that fails to properly reconnect and restore the community."
Project manager Jon Loree said much of the feedback that MDOT has received to date relates to concerns about the width of some intersections and, particularly from the business community, to how access would be maintained with major construction slated to happen between 2026 and 2028, but with some starting in 2025.
Saying this road is a nine lane highway because of turn lanes at the intersections is disingenuous. There's this miraculous thing called a pedestrian bridge if needed.
This is looking more and more to me as being a case of 'be careful of what you wish for, for you . . .'
Mike
I never supported this project. I think Interstate 375 should have been reconstructed as a freeway, and large portions of it should have had covers constructed over it. That would have sufficiently reconnected the neighborhoods in my opinion. Detroit may live to regret this freeway deconstruction, although they will likely spin it as a great-success story. Even if they just tore out the freeway and tried to redevelop the land, if what happened in Milwaukee after the Park Freeway came down, it would be a long time before the land was completely redeveloped.
their concerns aren't invalid. michigan is known for extremely wide roads. as a pedestrian that will be an issue to cross, i wonder if they have evidence that this road needs so many lanes. :hmmm: would this new road be a state road or city street?
I'm sure they do evidence why would they just waste money building it if it wasn't needed? Didn't they release an EIS? If so there's the evidence. If not then they will release it.
I was on I-375 yesterday. I blew down it at 80 mph as the exit to stay on I-75 was backed up all the way to Warren. Only had to stop at the light at Woodward on Jefferson, got back on the Lodge and back to SB I-75 and got around all that traffic.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 12, 2023, 02:53:49 PM
I never supported this project. I think Interstate 375 should have been reconstructed as a freeway, and large portions of it should have had covers constructed over it. That would have sufficiently reconnected the neighborhoods in my opinion. Detroit may live to regret this freeway deconstruction, although they will likely spin it as a great-success story. Even if they just tore out the freeway and tried to redevelop the land, if what happened in Milwaukee after the Park Freeway came down, it would be a long time before the land was completely redeveloped.
Detroit isn't going to regret getting rid of I-375. At the northern terminus it has around 50,000 VPD, go less than a mile south on it and it drops to about 15,000 VPD something a boulevard could most certainly handle.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 13, 2023, 11:38:11 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 12, 2023, 02:53:49 PM
I never supported this project. I think Interstate 375 should have been reconstructed as a freeway, and large portions of it should have had covers constructed over it. That would have sufficiently reconnected the neighborhoods in my opinion. Detroit may live to regret this freeway deconstruction, although they will likely spin it as a great-success story. Even if they just tore out the freeway and tried to redevelop the land, if what happened in Milwaukee after the Park Freeway came down, it would be a long time before the land was completely redeveloped.
Detroit isn't going to regret getting rid of I-375. At the northern terminus it has around 50,000 VPD, go less than a mile south on it and it drops to about 15,000 VPD something a boulevard could most certainly handle.
15,000 is crazy low, a four-lane road should easily handle that. It's a bummer they're proposing six through lanes plus multiple turn lanes, really defeats the purpose of reconnecting the community. It would be nice to see a report for their justification.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 12, 2023, 02:53:49 PM
I never supported this project. I think Interstate 375 should have been reconstructed as a freeway, and large portions of it should have had covers constructed over it.
Honestly if they go with the super-wide boulevard, then I agree that this would be much better at achieving the project goal. It's also mostly depressed already (though I imagine capping is still an expensive endeavour). But if I had to choose one location for a capped freeway in Detroit, my preference would be I-75 between downtown and midtown.
15K doesn't need a freeway, but the way they're planning it is stupid. A pair of 3-lane one-way roads with sidewalks and boulevards, on-street parking, and bump outs at intersections would more than suffice without the need for turn lanes. With plenty of land in between to redevelop.
Well, if Detroit ever sees a comeback and becomes a boomtown again, if built as proposed this road will be ready to handle the traffic load for future proofing.
I don't see why they're removing I-375 when M-10 is the one that's really undercapacity, it only sees 22,000 vehicles a day south of I-75.
I also think they should've gone with the median u-turn concept for the new boulevard. The excuse that it would leave less developable space doesn't really hold water in a city where entire blocks have reverted to prairie land.
Quote from: kernals12 on December 18, 2023, 10:42:15 AM
I don't see why they're removing I-375 when M-10 is the one that's really undercapacity, it only sees 22,000 vehicles a day south of I-75.
I also think they should've gone with the median u-turn concept for the new boulevard. The excuse that it would leave less developable space doesn't really hold water in a city where entire blocks have reverted to prairie land.
Because there is no reason to remove the Lodge. I-375 sees even less traffic than that with about 15,000 VPD at it's southern terminus. The Lodge has twice that at almost 30,000 VPD actually.
Kresge grant aims to explore neighborhood restoration in contentious I-375 redevelopment(https://s3-rd-prod.crainsdetroit.com/s3fs-public/styles/1024x512/public/I-375%20map-main_i.jpg)
QuoteThe Kresge Foundation is stepping into a controversial plan to bring Interstate 375 in Detroit up to grade with grants aimed at the spirit of restoring neighborhoods that the expressway's construction destroyed decades ago.
The foundation's aim is to ensure the project goes beyond engineering and includes a reparative approach, incorporating some type of reparations for the harm done to Black residents and businesses cleared to make way for the freeway. The Kresge Foundation has made a $1.85 million planning grant to the Downtown Detroit Partnership that will support further engagement of residents and businesses and create a holistic vision for the project.
It's the first of several grants Kresge plans to make to the effort and comes amid community pushback on the early design proposed to convert the stretch of below-grade highway in downtown Detroit to a street-level boulevard. "History has shown us time and time again that the investment goals of major infrastructure projects more often prioritize traffic flows, cost and speed of completion over residents, pedestrians and environmentally sustainable built environment concerns," said Wendy Lewis Jackson, managing director, Detroit program for the foundation.
"Detroit now has one shot to begin to reverse the decimation caused by the original I-375 urban renewal project. Getting it right means that affected residents and businesses are fully engaged in planning and feel that their concerns have been considered in MDOT's final engineering plans."
https://www.crainsdetroit.com/nonprofits-philanthropy/grant-aims-explore-restoring-black-bottom-amid-i-375-rebuild
As I stated in a previous comment, I don't expect any land vacated by the deconstruction of Interstate 375 to be redeveloped for a long time. Detroit has a huge amount of vacant lots where houses used to be but were demolished. I don't see new houses going up on those vacant lots anytime soon, so I think it will be the same for the 375 corridor. Again, I use the length of time it took to redevelop the land vacated by the deconstruction of Milwaukee's Park East Freeway as evidence of my claim.
Quote from: afguy on December 18, 2023, 04:50:03 PM
Quote from: Kresge Foundation flunkie
Detroit now has one shot to begin to reverse the decimation caused by the original I-375 urban renewal project.
(https://i.imgflip.com/8a1l29.jpg)
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 18, 2023, 07:13:44 PM
As I stated in a previous comment, I don't expect any land vacated by the deconstruction of Interstate 375 to be redeveloped for a long time. Detroit has a huge amount of vacant lots where houses used to be but were demolished. I don't see new houses going up on those vacant lots anytime soon, so I think it will be the same for the 375 corridor. Again, I use the length of time it took to redevelop the land vacated by the deconstruction of Milwaukee's Park East Freeway as evidence of my claim.
I get that there is a lot of blight in Detroit, but the 375 corridor is desirable real estate. It's very close to Ford Field and the Greektown casino. I'd expect that the area will be quickly redeveloped once the freeway is removed.
Quote from: 23skidoo on January 01, 2024, 01:59:42 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 18, 2023, 07:13:44 PM
As I stated in a previous comment, I don't expect any land vacated by the deconstruction of Interstate 375 to be redeveloped for a long time. Detroit has a huge amount of vacant lots where houses used to be but were demolished. I don't see new houses going up on those vacant lots anytime soon, so I think it will be the same for the 375 corridor. Again, I use the length of time it took to redevelop the land vacated by the deconstruction of Milwaukee's Park East Freeway as evidence of my claim.
I get that there is a lot of blight in Detroit, but the 375 corridor is desirable real estate. It's very close to Ford Field and the Greektown casino. I'd expect that the area will be quickly redeveloped once the freeway is removed.
I don't know. It's taken the Ilitch family empire and others a long, long time to develop what they promised around LCA; they're still working on it. If there's no market for anything new, there's no profit in developing it.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 18, 2023, 07:13:44 PM
As I stated in a previous comment, I don't expect any land vacated by the deconstruction of Interstate 375 to be redeveloped for a long time. Detroit has a huge amount of vacant lots where houses used to be but were demolished. I don't see new houses going up on those vacant lots anytime soon, so I think it will be the same for the 375 corridor. Again, I use the length of time it took to redevelop the land vacated by the deconstruction of Milwaukee's Park East Freeway as evidence of my claim.
Downtown Detroit is booming and has been doing very well the last ten years or so. I can most certainly see them redeveloping the land that I-375 stood on.
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 02, 2024, 12:06:18 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 18, 2023, 07:13:44 PM
As I stated in a previous comment, I don't expect any land vacated by the deconstruction of Interstate 375 to be redeveloped for a long time. Detroit has a huge amount of vacant lots where houses used to be but were demolished. I don't see new houses going up on those vacant lots anytime soon, so I think it will be the same for the 375 corridor. Again, I use the length of time it took to redevelop the land vacated by the deconstruction of Milwaukee's Park East Freeway as evidence of my claim.
Downtown Detroit is booming and has been doing very well the last ten years or so. I can most certainly see them redeveloping the land that I-375 stood on.
The sooner a company or investment group makes public a larger-scale plan to re-develop a section of the decommissioned I-375 corridor -- even if the final boulevard design is still up in the air, that could be the spark the area needs.
Things will take time. For example, how many years ago did Ford first talk about bringing the old Train Station property back from out of the dead and their plans for turning it back into a vital office campus?
Quote from: thenetwork on January 02, 2024, 12:24:02 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 02, 2024, 12:06:18 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 18, 2023, 07:13:44 PM
As I stated in a previous comment, I don't expect any land vacated by the deconstruction of Interstate 375 to be redeveloped for a long time. Detroit has a huge amount of vacant lots where houses used to be but were demolished. I don't see new houses going up on those vacant lots anytime soon, so I think it will be the same for the 375 corridor. Again, I use the length of time it took to redevelop the land vacated by the deconstruction of Milwaukee's Park East Freeway as evidence of my claim.
Downtown Detroit is booming and has been doing very well the last ten years or so. I can most certainly see them redeveloping the land that I-375 stood on.
The sooner a company or investment group makes public a larger-scale plan to re-develop a section of the decommissioned I-375 corridor -- even if the final boulevard design is still up in the air, that could be the spark the area needs.
Things will take time. For example, how many years ago did Ford first talk about bringing the old Train Station property back from out of the dead and their plans for turning it back into a vital office campus?
Ford had to buy the train station first which happened in 2018. I'd say they talked about it for a year to a couple of years before it happened so probably 2016 or so.
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 03, 2024, 07:48:32 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on January 02, 2024, 12:24:02 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 02, 2024, 12:06:18 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 18, 2023, 07:13:44 PM
As I stated in a previous comment, I don't expect any land vacated by the deconstruction of Interstate 375 to be redeveloped for a long time. Detroit has a huge amount of vacant lots where houses used to be but were demolished. I don't see new houses going up on those vacant lots anytime soon, so I think it will be the same for the 375 corridor. Again, I use the length of time it took to redevelop the land vacated by the deconstruction of Milwaukee's Park East Freeway as evidence of my claim.
Downtown Detroit is booming and has been doing very well the last ten years or so. I can most certainly see them redeveloping the land that I-375 stood on.
The sooner a company or investment group makes public a larger-scale plan to re-develop a section of the decommissioned I-375 corridor -- even if the final boulevard design is still up in the air, that could be the spark the area needs.
Things will take time. For example, how many years ago did Ford first talk about bringing the old Train Station property back from out of the dead and their plans for turning it back into a vital office campus?
Ford had to buy the train station first which happened in 2018. I'd say they talked about it for a year to a couple of years before it happened so probably 2016 or so.
Also, there has been recent chatter of restoring passenger rail service to it, late last year some Canadian proposals have VIA service being extended westward from Toronto (Windsor) to Chicago.
Mike
I don't understand how demolishing this freeway (that was repaved a year or two ago) is going to help pedestrians, old freeway had multiple bridges, don't see why crossing the 6 lane road would be any safer... What a waste of taxpayer dollars that could be used to actually fix roads. Atleast wait until the freeway is crumbling into pieces before tearing it apart...
Why did they repave the highway when they're gonna demolish it soon?
(https://i.imgur.com/5O649NM.png)
I agree that it shouldn't be demolished. I would rather it be reconstructed as a freeway. However, the plan to raze the freeway, and replace it with a boulevard is set in stone, with construction starting next year and being completed in 2028.
Quote from: michiganguy123 on March 06, 2024, 06:18:23 PM
I don't understand how demolishing this freeway (that was repaved a year or two ago) is going to help pedestrians
Slower traffic. Shorter walking distance to cross. No bridges to fall/jump off of. No freeway traffic to jump in front of.
Quote from: michiganguy123 on March 06, 2024, 06:18:23 PMold freeway had multiple bridges
New roadway has fewer bridges. Cheaper to build/maintain.
Quote from: michiganguy123 on March 06, 2024, 06:18:23 PMdon't see why crossing the 6 lane road would be any safer...
Slower traffic. Traffic expecting to stop. No bridges to fall/jump off of. No long expanses of bridge for "the criminal element" to ambush you on.
Quote from: michiganguy123 on March 06, 2024, 06:18:23 PMWhat a waste of taxpayer dollars that could be used to actually fix roads.
Replacing an expensive and unnecessary freeway with a cheaper roadway is a waste?
Taking up
less taxable land is a waste?
Last I checked, MDOT is getting special funding from the feds for replacing I-375 with a surface roadway. Should MDOT
not take federal funding when it has the opportunity? It won't get this funding to rebuild I-375.
Quote from: michiganguy123 on March 06, 2024, 06:18:23 PMAtleast wait until the freeway is crumbling into pieces before tearing it apart...
Per MDOT, it's failing. That's why they're having this discussion. Otherwise, they'd repave and kick the can down the road further.
Rebuilding a road takes time, planning, and money. They can't wait until the last minute, particularly if the goal is to not throw good money after bad.
Quote from: michiganguy123 on March 06, 2024, 06:18:23 PMWhy did they repave the highway when they're gonna demolish it soon?
Would you prefer car-destroying potholes instead?
Worth it to get a more functional interchange where I-75 turns 90 degrees.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 07, 2024, 11:20:49 AM
Worth it to get a more functional interchange where I-75 turns 90 degrees.
100% agreement.
The requirement on Northbound I-75 to use a 25mph ramps within a never completed spiral interchange to stay on the mainline should have been corrected 40 years ago.
Quote from: KelleyCook on March 07, 2024, 07:52:42 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 07, 2024, 11:20:49 AM
Worth it to get a more functional interchange where I-75 turns 90 degrees.
100% agreement.
The requirement on Northbound I-75 to use a 25mph ramps within a never completed spiral interchange to stay on the mainline should have been corrected 40 years ago.
Definitely. If removing I-375 is what it takes to smoothen the 90 degree turn on I-75, then so be it. Especially because I-375 is right in downtown Detroit, one of the areas of Detroit experiencing considerable redevelopment, and its removal would make a lot more sense because I-375 seems to function as one giant ramp to the waterfront (when other roads that connect I-75 to downtown exist, too).
Quote from: boilerup25 on March 07, 2024, 11:02:38 PM
Quote from: KelleyCook on March 07, 2024, 07:52:42 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 07, 2024, 11:20:49 AM
Worth it to get a more functional interchange where I-75 turns 90 degrees.
100% agreement.
The requirement on Northbound I-75 to use a 25mph ramps within a never completed spiral interchange to stay on the mainline should have been corrected 40 years ago.
Definitely. If removing I-375 is what it takes to smoothen the 90 degree turn on I-75, then so be it. Especially because I-375 is right in downtown Detroit, one of the areas of Detroit experiencing considerable redevelopment, and its removal would make a lot more sense because I-375 seems to function as one giant ramp to the waterfront (when other roads that connect I-75 to downtown exist, too).
It functions more as a ramp to Jefferson, there is also the Madison exit and Lafayette exit that are used quite a bit. The northern part of the freeway has much more traffic than the southern part.
I would argue 375 never served a purpose and never should have been built in the first place.
Quote from: silverback1065 on March 09, 2024, 07:56:08 PM
I would argue 375 never served a purpose and never should have been built in the first place.
I-75 was originally suppose to follow the river but was re-routed to it's current routing and it had been built up to Jefferson at that point so I-375 stuck around but yeah it never really did serve a purpose.
Quote from: Flint1979 on March 09, 2024, 09:22:04 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on March 09, 2024, 07:56:08 PM
I would argue 375 never served a purpose and never should have been built in the first place.
I-75 was originally suppose to follow the river but was re-routed to it's current routing and it had been built up to Jefferson at that point so I-375 stuck around but yeah it never really did serve a purpose.
that is very interesting, I didn't know that.
To me a country that wants to go green wants to add more stoplights to create idling for the queues created by it would add more carbon monoxide to the already polluted atmosphere. Therefore people in Lansing and Washington would push to keep the freeway and brand the boulevard as a Trump move.
At least the TOTSO on I-75 at I-375 and M-3 Connector will get removed and I-75 will have a free flow through that exchange once completed. Right now those curves and through exit moves are a bit of a pain considering the through lanes NB to M-3 are less traveled than the I-75 NB exit ramp and I-75 SB to I-375 it less used than straight through TOTSO I-75 SB.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 14, 2024, 01:21:53 PM
To me a country that wants to go green wants to add more stoplights to create idling for the queues created by it would add more carbon monoxide to the already polluted atmosphere. Therefore people in Lansing and Washington would push to keep the freeway and brand the boulevard as a Trump move.
At least the TOTSO on I-75 at I-375 and M-3 Connector will get removed and I-75 will have a free flow through that exchange once completed. Right now those curves and through exit moves are a bit of a pain considering the through lanes NB to M-3 are less traveled than the I-75 NB exit ramp and I-75 SB to I-375 it less used than straight through TOTSO I-75 SB.
So I take it the interchange will get the Springfield treatment? That was a marvelous engineering feat in itself!