MDOT is replacing some frequently-stolen M-22 signs with a simpler version, in an attempt to reduce future theft:
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2016/08/mdot.html
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.mlive.com%2Fhome%2Fmlive-media%2Fwidth620%2Fimg%2Fnews%2Fdetroit_impact%2Fphoto%2Fhighway-sign-theft-19b4064c0f9c8e2b.jpg&hash=1772a9e70eb381e9f0940501827d6641cb7366ca)
(I may know of a garage that has a circa-1973 M-22 sign hanging in it. I hope the statute of limitations has run out by now.) :)
^^ Make the "M" green, use the white background, make the numbers blue and the outside yellow. Then nobody will want to touch the damn things.
Quote from: Brandon on August 24, 2016, 12:30:06 PM
^^ Make the "M" green, use the white background, make the numbers blue and the outside yellow. Then nobody will want to touch the damn things.
None of the Michiganders will. That might have an adverse effect for everyone else, though: they'd see a multi-colored sign of a well-known route as a novelty item.
For as supposedly as stolen sign M22 is I've never ONCE seen one pop up on eBay. I have an M37 and I've seen M115 also...but no 22. Why not just paint them on the ground like they do with old sections of US 66? :-D
For the common idiot, why are these signs so frequently stolen?
Quote from: 6a on August 25, 2016, 01:49:11 PM
For the common idiot, why are these signs so frequently stolen?
Very scenic route on the Leelanua Pennisula on Lake Michigan. A lot of Michigan people love to get cabins or summer homes up there. There is even a company that sells M22 branded merchandise which probably contributed to theft spike on the road signs. For what it's worth it's one of the few really good "driver's" roads in Michigan with lots of twists and turns.
Given what I'm hearing here about MI sign theft, it was probably a sound decision for MI DOT to commission M-69 on the U.P.; less likely that folks would endure the slog up there just to steal a sign! (not to mention less confusion with I-69 "down south")
Quote from: sparker on August 25, 2016, 03:54:05 PM
Given what I'm hearing here about MI sign theft, it was probably a sound decision for MI DOT to commission M-69 on the U.P.; less likely that folks would endure the slog up there just to steal a sign! (not to mention less confusion with I-69 "down south")
I think more people are interested in stealing I-69s given by the glut of them almost constantly on eBay. It's probably smart to separate them geographically but it's pretty common for MDOT to place stuff close together like M10 (old US 10)/US10 or something like M24 with US 24 being so close.
Odd that I've never heard much about I-69 signs being stolen in Indiana (or Michigan really.) At least I've never heard of it being in a problem in our media to the point that we have to take extra measures. The shields are already neutered anyway. All of that said, M-22 is a very nice highway nonetheless and I am more than happy to have "taken" some pictures of the highway signs instead.
I know of no chronic issues with KY 69 (or now neutered I-69 in Kentucky) or KY 420 signs being stolen.
Quote from: Brandon on August 24, 2016, 12:30:06 PM
^^ Make the "M" green, use the white background, make the numbers blue and the outside yellow. Then nobody will want to touch the damn things.
Make the sign red and gray and you virtually guarantee they won't be stolen. :-D
Quote from: tdindy88 on August 25, 2016, 04:49:45 PM
Odd that I've never heard much about I-69 signs being stolen in Indiana (or Michigan really.) At least I've never heard of it being in a problem in our media to the point that we have to take extra measures. The shields are already neutered anyway.
Given how Indiana and Michigan generally sign things, the only real place to steal an I-69 in those states is going to be the reassurance markers located on the freeway itself which probably deters most thieves knowing it's unlikely they can do it without someone seeing them.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 25, 2016, 10:01:23 PM
Quote from: tdindy88 on August 25, 2016, 04:49:45 PM
Odd that I've never heard much about I-69 signs being stolen in Indiana (or Michigan really.) At least I've never heard of it being in a problem in our media to the point that we have to take extra measures. The shields are already neutered anyway.
Given how Indiana and Michigan generally sign things, the only real place to steal an I-69 in those states is going to be the reassurance markers located on the freeway itself which probably deters most thieves knowing it's unlikely they can do it without someone seeing them.
They are among the most common on eBay of the Interstate signs. Given that it's not exactly the largest of Interstates that suggests to me that it's not all scrap guys hawking them for a profit. Usually the prices people want are kind of on the high end....ya know...cause it's "69." :rolleyes: Some people will always take the risk freeway or not.
Perhaps the manufacturer is from North Carolina.
Quote from: dvferyance on August 25, 2016, 10:49:27 PM
Perhaps the manufacturer is from North Carolina.
It would be rounded in the diamond instead of squared off. The funny thing is that the company that sells the M22 trinkets has the exact same design if I recall correctly.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 25, 2016, 09:43:38 PM
I know of no chronic issues with KY 69 (or now neutered I-69 in Kentucky) or KY 420 signs being stolen.
Quote from: Brandon on August 24, 2016, 12:30:06 PM
^^ Make the "M" green, use the white background, make the numbers blue and the outside yellow. Then nobody will want to touch the damn things.
Make the sign red and gray and you virtually guarantee they won't be stolen. :-D
But the vandalism ......
Quote from: GaryV on August 26, 2016, 06:04:55 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 25, 2016, 09:43:38 PM
I know of no chronic issues with KY 69 (or now neutered I-69 in Kentucky) or KY 420 signs being stolen.
Quote from: Brandon on August 24, 2016, 12:30:06 PM
^^ Make the "M" green, use the white background, make the numbers blue and the outside yellow. Then nobody will want to touch the damn things.
Make the sign red and gray and you virtually guarantee they won't be stolen. :-D
But the vandalism ......
Make them pink then...no guy is going to want that for his man cave.
M-22 is also an apparel/lifestyle brand identity for viral thought-leaders of realtime leisure engagement for 18-35's: http://www.m22.com/
i.e. there is M-22 schwag you can buy
MDOT will make the signs in house at a facility in Atlanta, Michigan. Both versions of the sign will cost the same. They aren't contracting it out to any other agency, and the NC 22 sign wouldn't be correct because each state has different corners on their diamonds.
This is probably not going to help. Agreeing with some of the comments on the article, people are just going to keep stealing them. There's really no way around it other than welding signs down.
The sign thieves are job creators. :-P
If you ask me, the M in the shield was overkill anyway. You'd have to be completely brain-dead to not know you're in Michigan.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 29, 2016, 04:36:04 PM
If you ask me, the M in the shield was overkill anyway. You'd have to be completely brain-dead to not know you're in Michigan.
It's actually used in speaking, unlike Wisconsin. In Michigan, it's "M-14", or in the western UP, "Highway M-28", unlike Wisconsin where everything, including interstates, is simply "Highway", i.e. "Highway 41".
Quote from: Brandon on August 29, 2016, 05:30:20 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 29, 2016, 04:36:04 PM
If you ask me, the M in the shield was overkill anyway. You'd have to be completely brain-dead to not know you're in Michigan.
It's actually used in speaking, unlike Wisconsin. In Michigan, it's "M-14", or in the western UP, "Highway M-28", unlike Wisconsin where everything, including interstates, is simply "Highway", i.e. "Highway 41".
One of the few in fact. If I say CA 99, FL 15, CT 67, NV 375, or something like that nobody knows what the hell in talking about. I had a friend recently ask how Highways 395 was when she meant US 395. Even the U.S. And Interstate designations get spoken in Michigan.
I come from Chicago, festering breeding ground for Michigan's tourists. I see M-22 stickers in the back windshield of many cars. Why can't people just buy the M-22 merchandise?
Or why not just fabricate a bunch of M-22 signs and sell them for cash? (I guess people would rather steal stuff for free but still)
Quote from: paulthemapguy on August 31, 2016, 11:58:49 AM
I come from Chicago, festering breeding ground for Michigan's tourists. I see M-22 stickers in the back windshield of many cars. Why can't people just buy the M-22 merchandise?
Or why not just fabricate a bunch of M-22 signs and sell them for cash? (I guess people would rather steal stuff for free but still)
Or find a DOT sign maker. There are plenty out there that would be happy to sell you a legit reproduction sign that has the exact specs. You can find several sources on a quick Yahoo search. Hell I've heard similar stories about US 66, U.S. 666, and even US 1 down in the Florida Keys.
Quote from: Brandon on August 29, 2016, 05:30:20 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 29, 2016, 04:36:04 PM
If you ask me, the M in the shield was overkill anyway. You'd have to be completely brain-dead to not know you're in Michigan.
It's actually used in speaking, unlike Wisconsin. In Michigan, it's "M-14", or in the western UP, "Highway M-28", unlike Wisconsin where everything, including interstates, is simply "Highway", i.e. "Highway 41".
Not unlike Louisiana. If someone mentions "LA (some number)" they're referring to a state highway. (And the "LA" is even more overkill since the shield is the state outline.) (Oddly enough, we tend to call US highways just "Highway." I-10, LA 1, but "Highway" 90.)
Quote from: jbnv on September 02, 2016, 01:48:54 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 29, 2016, 05:30:20 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 29, 2016, 04:36:04 PM
If you ask me, the M in the shield was overkill anyway. You'd have to be completely brain-dead to not know you're in Michigan.
It's actually used in speaking, unlike Wisconsin. In Michigan, it's "M-14", or in the western UP, "Highway M-28", unlike Wisconsin where everything, including interstates, is simply "Highway", i.e. "Highway 41".
Not unlike Louisiana. If someone mentions "LA (some number)" they're referring to a state highway. (And the "LA" is even more overkill since the shield is the state outline.) (Oddly enough, we tend to call US highways just "Highway." I-10, LA 1, but "Highway" 90.)
Or Arizona and Nevada actually putting the state name in the shield. Personally I'm all for giving the signs a little bit of character to make them stand apart from each other, a little "M" seems minor to me and somehow it's managed to hang on after all these generations of signs.
Apparently you can get your own replica M-22 now on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/M-22-MICHIGAN-HIGHWAY-AUTHENTIC-MUNICIPAL-GRADE-ROAD-SIGN-30-x-30-in-/311689619926?hash=item48922629d6:g:xNwAAOSwgmJXyf7m
Mind the weird font and for some reason the sign being 30x30
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 02, 2016, 11:00:51 PM
Apparently you can get your own replica M-22 now on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/M-22-MICHIGAN-HIGHWAY-AUTHENTIC-MUNICIPAL-GRADE-ROAD-SIGN-30-x-30-in-/311689619926?hash=item48922629d6:g:xNwAAOSwgmJXyf7m
Mind the weird font and for some reason the sign being 30x30
"Authentic municipal grade." :pan:
Quote from: jbnv on September 04, 2016, 10:33:55 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 02, 2016, 11:00:51 PM
Apparently you can get your own replica M-22 now on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/M-22-MICHIGAN-HIGHWAY-AUTHENTIC-MUNICIPAL-GRADE-ROAD-SIGN-30-x-30-in-/311689619926?hash=item48922629d6:g:xNwAAOSwgmJXyf7m
Mind the weird font and for some reason the sign being 30x30
"Authentic municipal grade." :pan:
I don't have a problem with replicas per se, but at the very least make them as close to spec as possible. At least use the correct size and font. I have a couple friends that actually sell authentic replicas and make decent money on it. Obviously there is a niche with M-22 that someone is trying to exploit.....problem is that these "watered down" signs being posted are tomorrow's rare bird finds. Begs the question if that will help with the theft at all?
Never mind that you can order a better one for about $50 from various suppliers.
Friend in the brewery I hang out in came up with a tongue-in-cheek joke, selling M-11 stickers (main drag in southern Grand Rapids) as "only half as fun as M-22." It didn't take long for him to receive a cease-and-desist letter from Mich DOT and the Secretary of State in Lansing -- turns out all Michigan highway signs (the M-ones) are copyrighted. He ended up going legal and paying some ridiculously low fee per sticker -- more of a nuisance charge than anything else, and he said the State people were surprisingly nice to deal with.
And who turns miscreants in? The M-22 store, of course, since they paid licensing fees and royalties and don't want anyone making money off their name!
Quote from: Red Roads on September 16, 2016, 12:15:39 AM
Friend in the brewery I hang out in came up with a tongue-in-cheek joke, selling M-11 stickers (main drag in southern Grand Rapids) as "only half as fun as M-22." It didn't take long for him to receive a cease-and-desist letter from Mich DOT and the Secretary of State in Lansing -- turns out all Michigan highway signs (the M-ones) are copyrighted. He ended up going legal and paying some ridiculously low fee per sticker -- more of a nuisance charge than anything else, and he said the State people were surprisingly nice to deal with.
And who turns miscreants in? The M-22 store, of course, since they paid licensing fees and royalties and don't want anyone making money off their name!
I would argue that the Michigan Highway Shield fails the "threshold of originality (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap13.html#1302)" portion of copyright law, since it consists of a simple shape and text (a single letter). For that matter, many states use some sort of simple design.
It
could still be part of trademark law, however...and then I could understand where a government entity wouldn't want reproduction signs mounted anywhere and everywhere, which might get very confusing for some people.
I had an idea for developing products using a couple of no-longer-in-use Kentucky parkway markers, but never could get an answer as to whether or not the Commonwealth of Kentucky owns the rights to those images.
Quote from: formulanone on September 16, 2016, 10:03:58 AM
Quote from: Red Roads on September 16, 2016, 12:15:39 AM
Friend in the brewery I hang out in came up with a tongue-in-cheek joke, selling M-11 stickers (main drag in southern Grand Rapids) as "only half as fun as M-22." It didn't take long for him to receive a cease-and-desist letter from Mich DOT and the Secretary of State in Lansing -- turns out all Michigan highway signs (the M-ones) are copyrighted. He ended up going legal and paying some ridiculously low fee per sticker -- more of a nuisance charge than anything else, and he said the State people were surprisingly nice to deal with.
And who turns miscreants in? The M-22 store, of course, since they paid licensing fees and royalties and don't want anyone making money off their name!
I would argue that the Michigan Highway Shield fails the "threshold of originality (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap13.html#1302)" portion of copyright law, since it consists of a simple shape and text (a single letter). For that matter, many states use some sort of simple design.
It could still be part of trademark law, however...and then I could understand where a government entity wouldn't want reproduction signs mounted anywhere and everywhere, which might get very confusing for some people.
A quick look at the Michigan MUTCD says that our highway markers are in the public domain and not subject to copyright. Attorney General Bill Schuette has said as much as well in the various lawsuits connected to the M-22 marker. I sincerely doubt that MDOT and the Secretary of State were the ones who sent that cease-and-desist letter on that basis.
However, M22 LLC has been sending such letters to people, including those who wanted to sell M-119 stickers, as a means of protecting their trademark on the M-22 marker. They're fastidious about enforcing their trademark lest it be diluted by other merchandise and ultimately cancelled.
MDOT social media folks are now asking the general public for their input on how to deter and limit M-22 sign thieves on their Facebook page. They're also asking if anyone had any other ideas than the "M-less" route markers and other already-tried deterrents which haven't worked so far. You may notice a familiar name in the comments section with one idea (including illustrative graphics) that may or may not help much...
https://www.facebook.com/MichiganDOT/posts/10154444493694927 (https://www.facebook.com/MichiganDOT/posts/10154444493694927)
Check it out!
Smear poo on the signs.
I added some ideas to the Facebook topic.
Quote from: NE2 on October 04, 2016, 04:00:08 PM
Smear poo on the signs.
As funny and theoretically-practical as this idea is, I suspect that the people who have no shame in stealing a sign out in public have no qualms about the possibility of those signs having made contact with fecal matter.
Quote from: jbnv on October 04, 2016, 07:52:03 PM
I added some ideas to the Facebook topic.
Quote from: NE2 on October 04, 2016, 04:00:08 PM
Smear poo on the signs.
As funny and theoretically-practical as this idea is, I suspect that the people who have no shame in stealing a sign out in public have no qualms about the possibility of those signs having made contact with fecal matter.
Nothing that spraying it down with a hose wouldn't solve. It's weather resistant vinyl to begin with.
I've also seen some M-137 merchandise, as a nod to Interlochen National Music Camp.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 04, 2016, 09:37:42 PM
I've also seen some M-137 merchandise, as a nod to Interlochen National Music Camp.
I've probably seen about
two dozen different Michigan routes (State, U.S. and even Intercounty Highway H-58!) turned into "merchandise" now, especially with route marker bumper stickers. Heck, two weekends ago in Wisconsin's Door Peninsula, a little store in Carlsville (on STH-42) was selling STH-42 stickers–pattern accurate, too! The concept is spreading...
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 04, 2016, 09:18:26 PM
Quote from: jbnv on October 04, 2016, 07:52:03 PM
I added some ideas to the Facebook topic.
Quote from: NE2 on October 04, 2016, 04:00:08 PM
Smear poo on the signs.
As funny and theoretically-practical as this idea is, I suspect that the people who have no shame in stealing a sign out in public have no qualms about the possibility of those signs having made contact with fecal matter.
Nothing that spraying it down with a hose wouldn't solve. It's weather resistant vinyl to begin with.
You've got a water tank in the back of your truck?
About a year ago, the city of Platteville, WI was having problems with a lot of their street sign blades going missing (my guess is some drunk college students stealing them). The city's solution was to paint the signs with a special paint that goes on clear, but when someone touches it, the paint reacts with the oils on the skin and turns the person's hands blue. Maybe something like this would work?
http://platteville.org/?post=20384
Apparently the new signs didn't deter theft, so MDOT is now experimenting with vinyl lane markings:
http://upnorthlive.com/news/local/mdot-using-new-m-22-markings-to-deter-thefts
Quote from: catch22 on July 11, 2017, 02:24:57 PM
Apparently the new signs didn't deter theft, so MDOT is now experimenting with vinyl lane markings:
http://upnorthlive.com/news/local/mdot-using-new-m-22-markings-to-deter-thefts
They really couldn't just make look like an M22 shield? I guess the sign I bought for my brother in law will be extra valueable someday. Lol
I have to say, those M-22 signs look weird without the M on top! As to MI state highway shields looking similar to NC's, which state came first?
Quote from: Henry on July 13, 2017, 09:52:42 AM
I have to say, those M-22 signs look weird without the M on top! As to MI state highway shields looking similar to NC's, which state came first?
The State Trunkline Program in Michigan dates back to 1919 and even the older embossed shields still have the "M" in the diamond. I'm not an expert on North Carolina but I want to say the state highway system there was created in the 1930s?
NC state routes were signed about 1922.