US 69 Muskogee Bypass

[Bobby5280]

Stitt, like most Republicans these days, champions tax cuts far above anything else. Pander to voters by way of their wallets! That means budget cuts to anything and everything to create more tax cut candy. Forget about any significant new highway projects for awhile. It wouldn't surprise me if Stitt and his cronies tried to abolish the OTA and let the turnpike system fall completely apart as a result (they would never raise gasoline taxes to offset the funding imbalance).

Way too many voters have very unrealistic ideas how far their tax dollars actually go. "Just cut down on government waste and corruption!" We hear it both from voters and politicians, but it is never followed up with any specifics. It's just conveniently vague crap. They expect tax cuts yet demand every level of government do even more work and do it better.

The situation makes me think of the lunacy much of the general public has regarding health and fitness. Too many of us have very unrealistic ideas of how much work, discipline and sacrifice it takes to reach a particular health/fitness goal or just what it takes to maintain our current level of health. We're just winging it mostly, getting exercise infrequently (if at all) and not keeping track of the stuff we eat. It's kind of a sobering experience to start keeping a food diary and see just how many calories a stray snack here and there can cost. It's just as sobering to see just how much sweat you have to bleed at the gym to burn off so many calories.

I'm sure there's other examples similar to that.

[Plutonic Panda]

I will say, they need to eliminate tolls on I-44, but only with increased gas tax in the state.

[bugo]

Stitt, like most Republicans these days, champions tax cuts far above anything else.

Either he's a huge hypocrite or he's lying (probably both). He is trying to gut Oklahoma's medical marijuana program which is a huge source of tax revenue that his Repub buddies won't be having to pay. He's a fool if he destroys what will one day be a billion dollar industry in this state. It will also reduce the quality of life for many Oklahoma residents. He's a fool but is he that stupid?

[In_Correct]

There are foods painted with gold shavings. These foods cost hundreds of dollars per serving. People welcome this. As for exercise, they only want to walk as far as they need to in order to reach the plate of gold foods. But they are not willing to spend any money to fund roads and they certainly do not want to spend any money to fund passenger rail.

On the other hand, these hundred dollar gold foods are certain to have massive reduce in purchase price. Producers like to charge extra for healthier foods, with the hope that it will be out of reach to most people. But even though there is an increase of traffic, that does not mean the producers are going to be reducing the amount requested to construct road projects.

[US71]

Stitt, like most Republicans these days, champions tax cuts far above anything else. Pander to voters by way of their wallets! That means budget cuts to anything and everything to create more tax cut candy. Forget about any significant new highway projects for awhile. It wouldn't surprise me if Stitt and his cronies tried to abolish the OTA and let the turnpike system fall completely apart as a result (they would never raise gasoline taxes to offset the funding imbalance).

Way too many voters have very unrealistic ideas how far their tax dollars actually go. "Just cut down on government waste and corruption!" We hear it both from voters and politicians, but it is never followed up with any specifics. It's just conveniently vague crap. They expect tax cuts yet demand every level of government do even more work and do it better.

The situation makes me think of the lunacy much of the general public has regarding health and fitness. Too many of us have very unrealistic ideas of how much work, discipline and sacrifice it takes to reach a particular health/fitness goal or just what it takes to maintain our current level of health. We're just winging it mostly, getting exercise infrequently (if at all) and not keeping track of the stuff we eat. It's kind of a sobering experience to start keeping a food diary and see just how many calories a stray snack here and there can cost. It's just as sobering to see just how much sweat you have to bleed at the gym to burn off so many calories.

I'm sure there's other examples similar to that.

Arkansas is doing the same thing. "We're going to cut taxes and fix the roads"

[Bobby5280]

I will say, they need to eliminate tolls on I-44, but only with increased gas tax in the state.

For 600+ miles of turnpike to maintain those fuel taxes would have to go up a bunch. I'm guessing at least a 10¢-15¢ per gallon hike just for that. Add even more if there's going to be revenue improve or add capacity to existing freeways or build new ones.

Either he's a huge hypocrite or he's lying (probably both). He is trying to gut Oklahoma's medical marijuana program which is a huge source of tax revenue that his Repub buddies won't be having to pay. He's a fool if he destroys what will one day be a billion dollar industry in this state.

It's off topic, but medical marijuana isn't a huge source of tax revenue for the state of Oklahoma just yet. Right now these hundreds of new businesses are struggling just to find banks willing to hold their cash and struggling to be able to put their employees "on the books" rather than pay them straight cash. A bunch of these medical marijuana operations are fly-by-night affairs run by people just looking to get rich quick. Consumers will not know the difference between a good dispensary selling quality product versus one selling freaking garbage due to cutting corners and other stupid crap. There are no regulations on quality or safety of these products currently. Word of mouth will be the only enforcement tool. Most of these businesses will fail in short order, leaving only a few stronger ones behind. One fear is if the federal government de-criminalizes marijuana then Big Pharma will completely move in and take over the market and murder all the local businesses that started up when the law was first passed. And we all know what kind of taxes Big Pharma's companies pay: next to nothing. In the end I don't think pot is going to be the big revenue bonanza some are building it up to be.

[sparker]

^^^^^^^^^^
The discrepancy between Federal law (which still criminalizes marijuana) and the various state measures that have legalized it within that state has caused dispensaries and state-legalized vendors to either avoid federally-chartered banks & credit unions (who generally won't initiate accounts of such businesses) or (a) make it an all-cash business or (b) in the case of the business owners, use their personal accounts for transactions (which, of course puts them in the federal bulls-eye zone re enforcement of those statutes).  Out here in CA, cities can -- and often do -- exercise "opting out" of the cannabis trade; these tend toward suburbs fearful of the reaction of property owners/voters to cannabis outlets popping up in their midst.  So a "patchwork" of outlets is seen; the previously-approved "medical" application still marshals the greatest number of vendors"; actual recreational-use stores are few & far between and limited to specific jurisdictions.  Legalization hasn't been a panacea for either pro-cannabis activists or their opposition.

Getting back to the thread topic -- I wonder if the new Gov. Stitt (appreciate Bugo's nickname!) has made similar entreaties to the folks of Atoka and Stringtown?  In any case he's typical of OK politicians (my relatives in that state have dabbled in politics for years; some of them actually running for office) who elect to pander to the so-called "base" -- which in this state tends to veer somewhat to the right of Genghis Khan!  Besides the usual social stuff, they see nothing wrong with localized speed traps (just trying to generate income!) or impeding realistic congestion remedies if there's the remotest chance that some business along the existing thoroughfare will see a revenue dip!  There are NIMBY's on the left and NIMBY's on the right -- and from what I've seen, the latter dominate the OK scene!

[Bobby5280]

Getting back to the thread topic -- I wonder if the new Gov. Stitt (appreciate Bugo's nickname!) has made similar entreaties to the folks of Atoka and Stringtown?

Actually I think "Kevin's Tit" is even funnier nickname.

[DJStephens]

Looks like this project is not so set in stone, according to this article. Stitt claims he is for job growth yet supports the selfish desires of local towns people over statewide mobility improvements. Par for the course unfortunately for Oklahoma. It will be interesting to see if this gets built. This whole corridor needs to become I-45 at least from Tulsa to Dallas.

https://www.muskogeephoenix.com/news/odot-yields-to-stitt-delays-bypass-hearing/article_f486bd5b-f7e4-52cb-8e53-14abe70acc3d.html

No comments on Muskogee newspaper article.  Interesting, perhaps its not as big an issue as the article makes it out to be.  Maybe a multi vehicle pile up might jolt this governor elect to accept reality.  Most politicians are lawyers.  They don't study civil engineering or land use planning.

[bugo]

It's off topic, but medical marijuana isn't a huge source of tax revenue for the state of Oklahoma just yet. Right now these hundreds of new businesses are struggling just to find banks willing to hold their cash and struggling to be able to put their employees "on the books" rather than pay them straight cash. A bunch of these medical marijuana operations are fly-by-night affairs run by people just looking to get rich quick. Consumers will not know the difference between a good dispensary selling quality product versus one selling freaking garbage due to cutting corners and other stupid crap. There are no regulations on quality or safety of these products currently. Word of mouth will be the only enforcement tool. Most of these businesses will fail in short order, leaving only a few stronger ones behind. One fear is if the federal government de-criminalizes marijuana then Big Pharma will completely move in and take over the market and murder all the local businesses that started up when the law was first passed. And we all know what kind of taxes Big Pharma's companies pay: next to nothing. In the end I don't think pot is going to be the big revenue bonanza some are building it up to be.

Yet. Right now there are only about 36,000 licensed medical marijuana patients in Oklahoma and another 12,000 patients that are pending approval from the Oklahoma Medical Marijuana Authority. That's a very limited clientele. When recreational cannabis comes to Oklahoma (which is happening sooner or later) there will be far more potential customers and the industry will explode. When that happens, tax revenue will skyrocket. Right now it's crazy in Oklahoma, especially in Tulsa and Oklahoma City. There are dispensaries everywhere and many more are about to open. The OMMA has approved 902 dispensary licenses and nearly 1500 grower licenses. That's 24 patients for every grower. Needless to say, most of these businesses will fail. Some of these businesses that have been approved by the OMMA will never open. It will be interesting to see which ones succeed.

As far as consumers not being able to tell if the product is high quality or not, most cannabis users can tell by looking at, smelling and smoking dry flower. If you go to Tom's Dispensary and buy a gram of Durban Poison and you like it, you know you can always get that strain from that dispensary. Another benefit of medical cannabis is that patients can choose between different strains that have different effects and treat certain symptoms better. On the black market, you get whatever strain your guy happens to have at the time. Cannabis isn't all the same. Strains can have wildly different tastes, smells, looks and effects. Indicas tend to have more sedative-like effects and can treat insomnia and anxiety and other conditions and are good for smoking at night while sativas tend to be more uplifting and energetic and are good for smoking in the daytime.

As far as regulations go, they are coming soon. There needs to be regulation for safety and potency but not much more. Some state legislators and the governor are trying to gut the program, but Senate President Pro Tempore Treat has been working with the cannabis community and has vowed not to change the basics of the bill and that he was going to honor the will of the voters. The most shocking thing is that Senator Treat is a Republicans making him an unlikely ally. He could always flip flop but I'm cautiously optimistic that he will at least attempt to keep his word. If they gut the program thousands of small business owners will have their livelihoods in jeopardy. It would be political suicide to destroy a booming industry. Oklahoma is supposed to be a pro-business and too much regulation is usually seen as a bad thing. The fiscal conservative side of me is thrilled that a new industry is taking off and tax dollars are coming in which means other taxes will be lower. The libertarian side of me likes the lack of strict regulations, even though I think there should be fairly strict regulations on safety, claimed potency and quality of product. The law is nearly perfect as it is except for the lack of those regulations which should be implemented in the next couple of months. If they don't muck it up, Oklahoma will one day look back at their medical marijuana program with pride because it was the best pure medical marijuana program in the country.

Cannabis is not a panacea. It doesn't cure millions of diseases. It is also not going to single handedly going to solve the state's abundance of fiscal problems but it will certainly help and this state needs as much help as it can get. Even a few million helps.

[Bobby5280]

When recreational cannabis comes to Oklahoma (which is happening sooner or later) there will be far more potential customers and the industry will explode. When that happens, tax revenue will skyrocket.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Colorado hasn't exactly came out with a huge windfall of tax money from pot businesses. One issue is the absurd banking, accounting & tax-paying problem with all these businesses stuck mostly handling cash. The next problem is the influx of people who moved to Colorado with the motive of claiming some form of disability to get on welfare so they could sit around legally smoking pot all day. I personally have a cousin who moved up there to do that very thing and only returned to Oklahoma so he could mooch onto my Aunt's property (but his brother has other plans on that). Several of my relatives live in Colorado so I visit there frequently. Colorado Springs has panhandlers all over the damn place now. It's ridiculous.

I know a couple of people here in Lawton who have licenses to grow, process and sell medical marijuana. They're actually hoping the drug just stays legalized just on a medical basis. If it goes fully recreational then there won't be any controls on anything. Every Tom, Dick and Harry will be growing their own and it will push prices down to the point where it won't be worth it to run a local business selling the stuff properly. Then if the federal government removes pot from the schedule 1 list of illegal substances that will open the door for Big Pharma, Big Tobacco to jump into the business. That will be bad for Oklahoma-based marijuana sellers because then the tribes will be allowed to get in on the act. They'll sell the product just like they sell cigarettes: at a pretty deep discount versus "white" businesses.

Not everyone is going to get into using marijuana either. The potential customer base will have its limits. In my own personal case my work place has a random drug screening policy set up company-wide since we have a few crane truck drivers. Those drivers have to be drug-free by law. And it's a BIG morale problem testing only those guys and not anyone else (we've already been there done that). These work place policies will not change even if the federal government legalizes pot recreationally. There is currently no reliable sobriety testing method available for marijuana (as well as a number of other drugs), nothing that works similar to the BAC tools for alcohol.

Overall marijuana has a ways to go before it's as accepted as, um, cigarettes. And I personally can't stand cigarettes; they're disgusting.

As far as consumers not being able to tell if the product is high quality or not, most cannabis users can tell by looking at, smelling and smoking dry flower.

An experienced pot smoker might be able to tell the difference between a good or bad sample. Many of these new users the cannabis industry is hoping to attract will be easier to dupe. The real hazard is selling people dangerous product, stuff with mold or other contaminants on it. Not everyone in the hoard of growers is going to be cultivating product in ethical ways.

[hbelkins]

Getting back to the original topic, you'd be surprised how much clout local businesses can have when it comes to being bypassed. The original plans for the Mountain Parkway extension/widening in Kentucky called for a bypass of the existing route (US 460) that would run along a ridgetop on the south side of that commercial strip. The local business community complained. Magoffin County traditionally has the highest unemployment in the state, and local leaders felt that if the strip they call "Restaurant Row" was bypassed, those businesses would dry up (nevermind that there's really nothing for the next 50 miles if you're heading west, so anyone who needed gas or food would be stopping in Salyersville or else driving nearly an hour before coming to the next town with any services to amount to anything). So the new-terrain route was nixed, and the decision was made to widen the existing route and put in frontage and backage roads to serve the businesses. This means that instead of one traffic light, there will now be (I think) four.

See also Breezewood, Pa.

[Scott5114]

I will say, they need to eliminate tolls on I-44, but only with increased gas tax in the state.

The tolls on I-44 pay for the rest of the turnpike system. Without them, we wouldn't be able to afford safety turnpikes like the Cherokee.

If any tolls were to be eliminated, I'd say the Turner should go, for the sole reason that it links Oklahoma's two largest cities and there's an economic argument to be made that the toll hinders commerce between the two.

Getting back to the thread topic -- I wonder if the new Gov. Stitt (appreciate Bugo's nickname!) has made similar entreaties to the folks of Atoka and Stringtown?

Actually I think "Kevin's Tit" is even funnier nickname.

I prefer "What a piece of Stitt!"

[Plutonic Panda]

I will say, they need to eliminate tolls on I-44, but only with increased gas tax in the state.

The tolls on I-44 pay for the rest of the turnpike system. Without them, we wouldn't be able to afford safety turnpikes like the Cherokee.

If any tolls were to be eliminated, I'd say the Turner should go, for the sole reason that it links Oklahoma's two largest cities and there's an economic argument to be made that the toll hinders commerce between the two

This would be a good compromise. I think the gas tax in Oklahoma should be raised around 20 cents and OkDOT should be allowed to take on debt for road projects.

[Brandon]

I will say, they need to eliminate tolls on I-44, but only with increased gas tax in the state.

Bad idea, speaking from an Illinois perspective on this.  At least, with the exception of the PTC (due to being screwed by the Pennsylvania State Legislature), toll money goes back to pay for the road system you are driving on.  I would merely suggest the OTA join EZ Pass.

[Plutonic Panda]

I will say, they need to eliminate tolls on I-44, but only with increased gas tax in the state.

Bad idea, speaking from an Illinois perspective on this.  At least, with the exception of the PTC (due to being screwed by the Pennsylvania State Legislature), toll money goes back to pay for the road system you are driving on.  I would merely suggest the OTA join EZ Pass.

Isn't IDOT known as one of the worst DOTs in the country? I can't OkDOT is much better, however you can have a great road network with minimal tolls; look at Texas, Utah, Nevada, and Arizona. Those IMO are some of the best networks I've been on and they have little to no tolls.

[Brandon]

I will say, they need to eliminate tolls on I-44, but only with increased gas tax in the state.

Bad idea, speaking from an Illinois perspective on this.  At least, with the exception of the PTC (due to being screwed by the Pennsylvania State Legislature), toll money goes back to pay for the road system you are driving on.  I would merely suggest the OTA join EZ Pass.

Isn't IDOT known as one of the worst DOTs in the country? I can't OkDOT is much better, however you can have a great road network with minimal tolls; look at Texas, Utah, Nevada, and Arizona. Those IMO are some of the best networks I've been on and they have little to no tolls.

Texas has been building toll roads all over the place in urban areas.  Nevada has very little to actually maintain, and it's Clark County taking the lead on the Las Vegas circumferential freeway (215).  Arizona actually has fiscal discipline and money, as does Utah (which isn't adding to the network so much as expanding lanes).

[Plutonic Panda]

I stand by my points. Texas has much more free roads than tolls roads. I also stated I have no issue with non interstate toll roads. Most of Texas tolls facilities aren't such. Regardless of how much Nevada or Arizona have to maintain, they have incredible roads. Perhaps Oklahoma needs to find a different model instead of having endless rural roads they're responsible for.

Removing tolls on interstates won't spell doom for the state and its roads.

[Bobby5280]

Oregon doesn't have as many miles of roads as Oklahoma.

Not to leave Lawton out of the loop, but I'm not sure how transit-amenable the place that tore down its downtown to build a mall would be, especially considering any local transit that would be halfway decent would have to loop in Fort Sill somehow, though I imagine you could just have stops at the gates.

In terms of rail travel the ridership levels just wouldn't be high enough to make a spur down to Lawton profitable. The existing rail line going North from Lawton (thru Fort Sill) hits Elgin, Chickasha, Tuttle and Mustang before skirting the airport on its way into OKC. The rail line would have to be upgraded substantially for passenger rail service. The line would have to be double tracked or at least a dozen or more new parallel sidings built to allow reasonable 2-way service. None of that stuff would be cheap. If it was possible to connect additional cities, like Wichita Falls or points farther Southwest the line might have more appeal. The existing track from OKC to Lawton bolts due West from downtown Lawton toward Altus. There is no direct rail link between Lawton and Wichita Falls. Altus is actually a far better rail head than Lawton; multiple lines intersect there.

People in Lawton love their cars. There is a bus service though (LATS); I think Uber and Lyft are eating into that business a bunch though.

Their are ways to make up for lost revenue from removing tolls. My plan would abolish OTA and turn over intercity toll facilities to MPO/RTAs or the tribes(if they aren't already owned by the tribes).

Trade control of a 600+ mile toll road network from one agency to be divided up by a bunch of other agencies? Including tribes? That sounds like a very very bad idea. I think the result would be much more than a "slight" increase in fees. Given the unpredictable politics in both "white" and tribe-run agencies I definitely would expect quite a lot of price-gouging on tolls. I also would expect stupid sweet-heart deals to be made between different toll tag agencies. It would suck to need 3 different RFID tags on the windshield just to drive from Lawton to the Missouri border. Finally I would also expect road maintenance to take a big hit, especially on the rural turnpikes that would get no longer get any financial help via revenue from the far busier roads.

Heartland Flyer extension to Newtown is a must. It needs to be expedited and start yesterday.

I would be in favor of that. Newton is an Amtrak stop on the Chicago to Los Angeles line (via Kansas City and Albuquerque). The Heartland Flyer is currently just a North-South stub from the DFW Amtrak hub. An extension North from OKC thru Wichita and to Newton would effectively create an unbroken Kansas City to San Antonio line.

[US 89]

I will say, they need to eliminate tolls on I-44, but only with increased gas tax in the state.

Bad idea, speaking from an Illinois perspective on this.  At least, with the exception of the PTC (due to being screwed by the Pennsylvania State Legislature), toll money goes back to pay for the road system you are driving on.  I would merely suggest the OTA join EZ Pass.

Isn't IDOT known as one of the worst DOTs in the country? I can't OkDOT is much better, however you can have a great road network with minimal tolls; look at Texas, Utah, Nevada, and Arizona. Those IMO are some of the best networks I've been on and they have little to no tolls.

Texas has been building toll roads all over the place in urban areas.  Nevada has very little to actually maintain, and it's Clark County taking the lead on the Las Vegas circumferential freeway (215).  Arizona actually has fiscal discipline and money, as does Utah (which isn't adding to the network so much as expanding lanes).

Utah's got several new freeway projects planned for the next 10 years or so, and as far as I can tell they have never considered a DOT-run toll road for any of them. One of the early proposals for the Mountain View Corridor was proposed to be built as a toll road by a private company (somewhat similar to the Adams Avenue Parkway in Ogden, but a freeway) though this idea was nixed fairly early on. The DOT does collect some toll revenue from the I-15 express lanes, but I can't imagine they make much (if any) money on those, given the amount of people that cheat and get away with it.

[sparker]

Heartland Flyer extension to Newtown is a must. It needs to be expedited and start yesterday.

I would be in favor of that. Newton is an Amtrak stop on the Chicago to Los Angeles line (via Kansas City and Albuquerque). The Heartland Flyer is currently just a North-South stub from the DFW Amtrak hub. An extension North from OKC thru Wichita and to Newton would effectively create an unbroken Kansas City to San Antonio line.

The only issue with extending the Heartland Flyer is as an adjunct of either (or both) the Southwest Chief which it would meet in Newton or the Texas Eagle in Fort Worth.  Cobbling up a schedule which would minimize "dwell" time at either depot before a passenger could transfer from one service to another may not be feasible without changing the schedule of the longer-distance trains.  Add to that the fact that the Eagle is one of the most-often delayed trains in the Amtrak compendium, since NB it must pick up cars from the EB Sunset in San Antonio -- and that train has a miserable on-time record in both directions.  And while the SW Chief tends to keep to schedule somewhat better than the Sunset, it's still subject to delays over its nearly 2000-mile route.  Unless the extended Heartland (a) makes a RH turn in Newton and heads to KC independently of the Chief, and (b) eschews any attempt to closely coordinate with the Eagle in Fort Worth -- no guarantee re transfer wait time -- its classification as an interregional server would be spurious. 

BTW, Fort Worth has always eclipsed Dallas as a rail hub, if not actual destination.  UP, BNSF, and KCS have major freight facilities there; Dallas is seen by the railroads (not by the passengers, of course) as more of an "auxiliary" station stop.  Dallas' value as a "hub" only pertains to local commute rail service, which does, quite naturally, revolve around that city center.     

[rte66man]

Not to leave Lawton out of the loop, but I'm not sure how transit-amenable the place that tore down its downtown to build a mall would be, especially considering any local transit that would be halfway decent would have to loop in Fort Sill somehow, though I imagine you could just have stops at the gates.

In terms of rail travel the ridership levels just wouldn't be high enough to make a spur down to Lawton profitable. The existing rail line going North from Lawton (thru Fort Sill) hits Elgin, Chickasha, Tuttle and Mustang before skirting the airport on its way into OKC. The rail line would have to be upgraded substantially for passenger rail service.

UP has another line going north from Lawton that runs through Apache to Anadarko where it turns east and runs to Chickasha.  I do know it isn't rated at the full 286,000 lbs so I'm sure it too would need upgrades.

[Bobby5280]

That rail line would probably be decommissioned South of Anadarko if not for the combination the Dolese rock quarry and Fort Sill farther down South. That particular rail line now has a big decommissioned gap in it between Fort Sill and Walters. The old railroad tracks were dug up and removed (the rails recycled and sold). Now Railroad Avenue in Lawton really doesn't mean anything. There's no railroad next to it.

Fort Sill also gets connected by the rail line that goes up through Elgin. So I guess if it wasn't for the rock quarry out by Medicine Park that rail line would be dug up even farther North.

[rte66man]

That rail line would probably be decommissioned South of Anadarko if not for the combination the Dolese rock quarry and Fort Sill farther down South.
<snip>
So I guess if it wasn't for the rock quarry out by Medicine Park that rail line would be dug up even farther North.

Dolese sends 3-4 trains a week from their Richards Spur quarry to other Dolese yards (Enid, Yukon, and their Midtown OKC location). I'm sure it would be a big blow if UP was allowed to decommission that line. Shipping that much rock by truck over those distances is quite a bit more expensive.

[Bobby5280]

Yeah, I would prefer the rail line be kept open. I don't like being anywhere near trucks hauling gravel or any other similar load on the highways. Even if the loads are covered stray rocks go flying. They're great at putting dings into vehicles, chipping paint and damaging windshields.

It's a sure bet if Dolese closed down that particular quarry those rails would be dug up, sold and recycled in short order.