How do you write the date?

[Scott5114]

I can never remember if the u goes before the o; I'm terrible at remembering multiple-vowel spellings, except for "beautiful".

Worst case example is asking me to spell that piece of furniture / government department that begins with B and I'll mentally spell it buryirow if there's no spell-checker

Damn Norman Yoke making French seem fantastically fashionable for the bourgeoisie!

Then again, the Celtic languages (well Q-Celtic ones like Gàidhlig and Gaeilge) love their multiple vowels and while they are phonetic (with different phonemes to English - cf Siobhan 'shivon') they have often loads of letters Dún Laoghaire is pronounced Dunleary. However, unlike the French-based English spellings, those long formations aren't pointless and the extra letters merely about showing off - two good English examples being Cholmondeley (pronounced Chum-lee), Beaulieu (Bew-lee) and both are frivolous spellings of names rather than the name being shortened but spelt the same (Gloucester = Gloster, etc).

The Webster dictionary/American mindset mostly got rid of/didn't readd such things, unlike the Oxford dictionary/British mindset. cf the difference between Peterborough, England and Greensboro, NC or colour/color.

I would like to see more English spelling reforms. Each letter should have a consistent set of phonemes, much like Spanish. This is especially important on loanwords from other languages. In pretty much every other language, loanwords are adjusted to fit the adopting language's phonemes, but in English we're often stuck with a pileup of letters that barely makes a token attempt at approximating how the word is pronounced. This is especially a problem in the modern day, where we have access to vast amounts of written material with no context for how the word is spoken. More than once I've attempted to use a word I see all the time, know the meaning of intimately, and then completely butcher when I try to say it out loud.

This also becomes a problem with names. I worked for a woman named Sheree–Sherree?–for years, and to this day I still have no damn idea how her name is spelled without looking it up. Because the name Sheree can be spelled Sherree, Sherry, Sherrie, Sherie, Shari, Shary, Cherie, and dozens more ways that look even more stupid. It becomes a game of memorization, which is silly. The problem is worse with names like the aforementioned Siobhan, which–since nobody is named that here–had I not seen a character named that on a British TV show with the closed captioning on, I would have assumed is pronounced See-ob-han.

The obvious problem with this is that English has no governing body to make the reform, unlike French and German, and the culture of English-speaking countries is such that the idea of such a body would be a non-starter.

Sure, but you also have to remember the order the kanji came in and how long each era was. If someone was born in Showa 59, how old are they? You can't just subtract–you have to know that Showa was immediately before Heisei and how long Showa lasted before you can do the math.

I'm going to make a totally absurd and totally random connection between this and the "mileage vs. sequential" exit number debate. One requires memory (or contextual knowledge), the other doesn't. Obviously, we prefer not to use our memories unless we have to 

It's not so much a memory problem–I love learning new things and recalling them isn't a problem. But any time you have a system such as this that's linked to outside information, it causes complications when someone runs across it that doesn't have all of the information they need, because why would you need to know the order and lengths of service of Japanese emperors otherwise?

[webny99]

Sure, but you also have to remember the order the kanji came in and how long each era was. If someone was born in Showa 59, how old are they? You can't just subtract–you have to know that Showa was immediately before Heisei and how long Showa lasted before you can do the math.

I'm going to make a totally absurd and totally random connection between this and the "mileage vs. sequential" exit number debate. One requires memory (or contextual knowledge), the other doesn't. Obviously, we prefer not to use our memories unless we have to 

It's not so much a memory problem–I love learning new things and recalling them isn't a problem. But any time you have a system such as this that's linked to outside information, it causes complications when someone runs across it that doesn't have all of the information they need, because why would you need to know the order and lengths of service of Japanese emperors otherwise?

Perhaps "memory" wasn't the greatest word choice, but that's my point, that similar problems are created by sequential numbering systems - not everyone has all the information they need in either case.

[formulanone]

It could always be worse. The Japanese calendar resets to 1 every time a new Emperor takes the throne. The current year there is 30. There is a "era name" that gets attached when you need to define which Emperor you're talking about (so it's currently "Heisei 30" or "H30" if you need to be more precise).

The current Emperor is planning to retire in April 2019, so the year is only going to get up to 31. The year 31 will only have January through April, then the year will reset to 1, which will have only May through December, with year 2 starting on January 1, 2020.

The only nice thing about this system is that you don't have to write a lot of numbers: the highest the year ever has gotten is 64!

The only drawback is that you have to remember new kanji, but after that, you're set for a while.

Sure, but you also have to remember the order the kanji came in and how long each era was. If someone was born in Showa 59, how old are they? You can't just subtract—you have to know that Showa was immediately before Heisei and how long Showa lasted before you can do the math.

Probably no different than memorizing the Presidents; for media and historical examples, everything seems to be highlighted as Reagan-era or Clinton-era, et al. If someone says they were born "when Nixon was still President", or if something happened during the Eisenhower Administration you have a pretty good grasp of its age, if you're around 20-25.

Of course, mention FDR, and that's a long spell of time for precision. And I think you'd probably stump the Average Joe with something from President McKinnley's time. With the exception of history buffs, locally-important dates, and major national/world events, the focus on American history is typically bottled up to the events from vaguely 1941-on...I suppose a lot of that is due to radio, television, and other mass-media, as well as the availability of archived materials, but I also think a lot of that has to do with the ages of our eldest living generation.

I do recall that much of Japan also goes by Common Era...they'd typically write 2018年 for most world events, and be done with it. Their New Year is the same as the one celebrated by 50-60% the world.

[J N Winkler]

I do recall that much of Japan also goes by Common Era...they'd typically write 2018年 for most world events, and be done with it.

I think it is a question of context.  I tend to associate era dating with formal contexts--e.g., I've run across a Japan Road Association catalog for standards publications where the publication date for the direction sign design manual is given as "Showa 37" rather than "1962."

The problem is worse with names like the aforementioned Siobhan, which–since nobody is named that here–had I not seen a character named that on a British TV show with the closed captioning on, I would have assumed is pronounced See-ob-han.

One of the few memes I see floating around that I actually like goes something like this:  don't mock spelling pronouncers--when they mispronounce a word, it means they first encountered it in a book.

As regards Siobhán and other Irish names, it helps greatly to have studied just enough Irish Gaelic to recognize diphthongs and the usual markers for aspiration and elision.  For example, the h in Siobhán is not a consonant in its own right, but rather an indication that the preceding b is aspirated.  In traditional Irish orthography, aspiration would be indicated by a dot over the b and the h would be omitted.  And b and v are close enough to each other that in other languages they are minefields for English speakers.  E.g., Sevilla in Spanish pronunciation sounds a little like "Sebiya."

[1995hoo]

I don't doubt if you lived in Japan, or if you grew up with that system, it would become second-nature to you after a while.

Regarding names and spelling, I think regardless of whether we had more "phonetic letters" there would still be people coming up with unusual spellings just for the sake of being different. That's pretty common as it is. Basketball player Dwyane Wade comes to mind–his first name does not look like it should be pronounced "Duane" given where that "y" is positioned. It looks like "dweye-ane." He's a "Jr.," so it's also his father's name. I saw an interview in which he said the spelling is simply how his grandmother thought it should be spelled. Not much you can do when people want to come up with things like that. Or you have plain old misspellings–basketball player Antawn Jamison's first name is pronounced like "Antoine" but is spelled the way it is because of a mistake on his birth certificate that was never corrected.

[J N Winkler]

I have first name Jonathan, spelled the classic way, but often misspelled Jonathon, Johnathan, etc., and there are other people out there for whom these different spellings are their actual names.  This drives me crazy, as do the attempts of others to justify the alternate spellings by pointing out that vowelization of Hebrew trigeminals is essentially arbitrary.

[1995hoo]

I have first name Jonathan, spelled the classic way, but often misspelled Jonathon, Johnathan, etc., and there are other people out there for whom these different spellings are their actual names.  This drives me crazy, as do the attempts of others to justify the alternate spellings by pointing out that vowelization of Hebrew trigeminals is essentially arbitrary.

My brother's first name is Terence, with one "r." Our father's mother apparently was livid at this, got mad at my mother, asked her who in the world spells "Terrence" with only one "r." My mom says she looked our grandmother in the eye and answered, "Terence Cardinal Cooke." End of discussion. Of course the classic Latin form associated with the Roman playwright is "Terence," but citing Cardinal Cooke would have been more convincing since he was the archbishop of New York at the time and our grandmother lived in Brooklyn.

Our last name is frequently misspelled by people who want to add an extra letter (a superfluous one, IMO, even if there are some famous people who use that extra letter). I figure if a misspelled last name is the worst thing anyone ever calls me, I'm probably doing OK.

[webny99]

Our last name is frequently misspelled by people who want to add an extra letter (a superfluous one, IMO, even if there are some famous people who use that extra letter). I figure if a misspelled last name is the worst thing anyone ever calls me, I'm probably doing OK.

Is your last name 1995hoo?
It always cracks me up when you say "Ms 1995hoo".

[1995hoo]

Our last name is frequently misspelled by people who want to add an extra letter (a superfluous one, IMO, even if there are some famous people who use that extra letter). I figure if a misspelled last name is the worst thing anyone ever calls me, I'm probably doing OK.

Is your last name 1995hoo?
It always cracks me up when you say "Ms 1995hoo" and the likes. 

On a UVA forum there is a user named CFHoo, "CF"  denoting Clifton Forge. His wife started posting and set up own username as MsCFHoo. I picked up the Ms1995hoo usage from her. I suppose I could use "Mrs1995hoo,"  but I had used "Ms"  to refer to her before we were married and so it stuck, plus it's one fewer letter to type.

[jwolfer]

I do recall that much of Japan also goes by Common Era...they'd typically write 2018年 for most world events, and be done with it.

I think it is a question of context.  I tend to associate era dating with formal contexts--e.g., I've run across a Japan Road Association catalog for standards publications where the publication date for the direction sign design manual is given as "Showa 37" rather than "1962."

The problem is worse with names like the aforementioned Siobhan, which–since nobody is named that here–had I not seen a character named that on a British TV show with the closed captioning on, I would have assumed is pronounced See-ob-han.

One of the few memes I see floating around that I actually like goes something like this:  don't mock spelling pronouncers--when they mispronounce a word, it means they first encountered it in a book.

As regards Siobhán and other Irish names, it helps greatly to have studied just enough Irish Gaelic to recognize diphthongs and the usual markers for aspiration and elision.  For example, the h in Siobhán is not a consonant in its own right, but rather an indication that the preceding b is aspirated.  In traditional Irish orthography, aspiration would be indicated by a dot over the b and the h would be omitted.  And b and v are close enough to each other that in other languages they are minefields for English speakers.  E.g., Sevilla in Spanish pronunciation sounds a little like "Sebiya."

A lot of the weird spellings in English were phonetically correct when English was first written down.. i.e. knife "k-nifa".  We just retained the spelling when the pronunciation changed.

At one point b and v(voiced bilabial consonant vs  labiodental consonanat) were pronounced in Spanish more like  like English.. ( Portuguese retains the difference) .

The difference between Spanish and Portuguese is interesting.. the lexicon is about 85% the same. Spanish speakers have few problems reading Portuguese. But Portuguese has a larger phonemic inventory.. 13 vowel sounds vs 5.. Portuguese speakers generally find it easier to understand and speak Spanish than the other way around.

Z981

[Sanctimoniously]

I adhere to preferred format whenever required but I'm usually DDMonthYYYY.

[ET21]

01/31/17

[Beltway]

A lot of the weird spellings in English were phonetically correct when English was first written down.. i.e. knife "k-nifa".  We just retained the spelling when the pronunciation changed.
At one point b and v(voiced bilabial consonant vs  labiodental consonanat) were pronounced in Spanish more like  like English.. ( Portuguese retains the difference) .
The difference between Spanish and Portuguese is interesting.. the lexicon is about 85% the same. Spanish speakers have few problems reading Portuguese. But Portuguese has a larger phonemic inventory.. 13 vowel sounds vs 5.. Portuguese speakers generally find it easier to understand and speak Spanish than the other way around.
Z981

English has 13 vowel sounds, and Spanish has only 5.  That is why Spanish speakers generally have a harder time learning to speak English than vice versa.

[michravera]

I have first name Jonathan, spelled the classic way, but often misspelled Jonathon, Johnathan, etc., and there are other people out there for whom these different spellings are their actual names.  This drives me crazy, as do the attempts of others to justify the alternate spellings by pointing out that vowelization of Hebrew trigeminals is essentially arbitrary.

I won't even tell you how badly people butcher my family name. There's always an "i" that sneaks into it somewhere. That wouldn't be so bad, if they would spell it the French way "Ravier" but a class foe once deliberately wrote it as "Ravioli" in the school bulletin back in the days when it had to be read out loud in each class.

I also pronounce my first name with a short "i". In fact, I have a karaoke album called '(short "i")'.

[jwolfer]

English has 13 vowel sounds, and Spanish has only 5.  That is why Spanish speakers generally have a harder time learning to speak English than vice versa.

Native Spanish speakers who live in the United States and speak English have an easier time understanding and learning Portuguese than monolingual native Spanish speakers because they have the vowels from English that are also in Portuguese.. for example the the "J" is pronounced the same in English and Portuguese... The name "Jose" in Portuguese is "Joe-Ze" not "Ho-say".

Also English and Portuguese will link words together when speaking.. Spanish generally does not



Z981

[Jordanes]

Sunday, February 4, 2018
OR
Sun., Feb. 4, 2018
OR
2/4/18

If I'm writing in a sign-in list somewhere (like my grandmother's nursing home), I'll usually write "Feb 4th". I always find it interesting to look at such lists, and if someone writes it was say "2-4", you will see a few people below it write it the same way, until someone changes it. I've seen people write it as "Feb 4th" below my sign-in.

[TheArkansasRoadgeek]

Sunday, February 4, 2018
OR
Sun., Feb. 4, 2018
OR
2/4/18

If I'm writing in a sign-in list somewhere (like my grandmother's nursing home), I'll usually write "Feb 4th". I always find it interesting to look at such lists, and if someone writes it was say "2-4", you will see a few people below it write it the same way, until someone changes it. I've seen people write it as "Feb 4th" below my sign-in.

Interesting psychology.

[Scott5114]

I have another way of writing the date that I only use on documents nobody else will need to read, and when space is tight. I condense the month to a single letter, A-L, and then write the day. So, today would be B05 (second month, fifth day), Christmas would be L25, July 4th would be G04, etc. If I need to include a year, I throw the last digit of it on the end there (B058).

Obviously this is useless for communicating the date with most other people, but the date box in my check register is just so tiny...

[adventurernumber1]

I have another way of writing the date that I only use on documents nobody else will need to read, and when space is tight. I condense the month to a single letter, A-L, and then write the day. So, today would be B05 (second month, fifth day), Christmas would be L25, July 4th would be G04, etc. If I need to include a year, I throw the last digit of it on the end there (B058).

Obviously this is useless for communicating the date with most other people, but the date box in my check register is just so tiny...

That sounds like a really interesting way to do it, but I do have a question:

Should the year be necessary in a given scenario when doing this, how would you distinguish between 2008 and 2018 if you were dealing with a decade or more of information (even if that is a rare occurrence)?

[Scott5114]

If that's necessary, I don't use that format and use typical ISO format instead.

The only thing that I use this format on other than personal notes is coupon codes on my business website. So a coupon issued today would be of the format B068xxxxxA. The longest I would ever issue a coupon code for would be a year, meaning that by the next time B068 came around (February 6, 2028) the coupon would long since be expired.