Interest Group: Don't Privatize Rest Stops

[AlexandriaVA]

Looks like the Trump plan to privatize rest areas - presumably on the concept of the rest areas having retail services like gasoline and food - isn't going over so well with retail interests situated along highway exits.- i.e. this sort of stuff (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6381372,-94.9953516,3a,75y,336.51h,83.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sj3Y1eTiHq1Ucb7n5QK1PUw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

https://citiesspeak.org/2018/02/26/privatization-of-rest-stops-directly-competes-with-cities-local-businesses/

Tucked into the President's infrastructure proposal to Congress is an old idea that hasn't gotten any better with time – letting states privatize highway rest areas to directly compete with local small businesses in towns across America.

[hotdogPi]

Since it's already the case for a few places in Massachusetts (I-95/MA 128 at Exit 30, MA 128 alone between exits 19 and 18, and maybe one or two more on untolled freeways), does anyone have any information about how those are affecting local businesses?

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Honestly I feel this plan doesn't make sense for the simple fact that the vast majority of existing rest areas aren't laid out with major expansion in mind. They'd have to acquire vast amounts of adjacent land for larger buildings and relocated parking lots. In Minnesota many rest areas are hemmed in by forests or lakes, which pretty much restricts any privatization to welcome centers.

[formulanone]

It's a good idea for places where there's nothing around nor exits in the immediate area, such as Florida's Turnpike...which already has privatized rest areas by the same folks that jack up prices at the airport.

I'm not quite against it, but doesn't this sort of tilt the field against the local businesses? Or will prices just define what works and what remains. It will probably be the usual story; dump low prices, eradication of local biz, increase as monopoly. But if it's convenient enough, that won't matter much.

Honestly I feel this plan doesn't make sense for the simple fact that the vast majority of existing rest areas aren't laid out with major expansion in mind. They'd have to acquire vast amounts of adjacent land for larger buildings and relocated parking lots.

^ And this.

Not every place was designed for the of increased capacity, and I'm sure adjacent homeowners won't be too pleased. During the busiest moments at some rest areas, there's no parking.

I've seen some of the little service islands in New York, that's probably about as big as most highway rest areas can handle; a gas station, a fast-food stop, and maybe a convenience store. I don't think many spots are going to have truck parking once retail expansion occurs.

[kalvado]

Local businesses? Yep, there is a Pilot shop two exits down the road as a proud representative of local town small business....
If anything, an option for more competition - new rest stops (assuming they are at least few miles away from each other and exits) build using private funds - is a good idea. If we're talking long haul, land for new development between major cities would be only that big of a problem...

[jwolfer]

A lot of welcome centers have limited hours already and many rest areas have closed down...

I would appreciate having more options than vending machines.  One thing I like about service areas is not having exit the highway and deal with traffic lights/u turns etc in an unfamiliar area. And are many exits there are a plethora of other retail outlets not directly related to highway( ie Walmart), so a quick fill up turns to a 30 minute ideal of fighting traffic.

I just hate that the prices are usually jacked up at service areas

Z981

[Max Rockatansky]

Might actually be a viable option in the western states.  A trip down I-10 west of Phoenix or I-40 in California are some prime examples where the local businesses actually go out of there way to price gouge travels.  Needles in California was infamous for $4.99 a gallon gasoline off of I-40 until recently. 

[Brandon]

I think it was dead wrong not to do what the tollways did, Ontario did with the 400 & 401, and others by keeping the rest areas a simple little washroom with no other real facilities.  IMHO, as many rest areas as possible, even in urban areas, should be upgraded to service areas with at least a convenience store, if not a restaurant or two and a filling station.

[Rothman]

Because the private sector's main motivation is to maximize profit, I don't know how the public property could be fairly and totally privatized.  Thinking similar contracts/leases to what the Thruway and other toll facilities do would be the only options.  Just selling property over and fully transferring ownership doesn't seem right to me.

That said, it will be very hard to overcome the argument that public support for private businesses that compete with local businesses and given the big advantage of a facility right on the highway is unfair.

[kalvado]

Because the private sector's main motivation is to maximize profit, I don't know how the public property could be fairly and totally privatized.  Thinking similar contracts/leases to what the Thruway and other toll facilities do would be the only options.  Just selling property over and fully transferring ownership doesn't seem right to me.

That said, it will be very hard to overcome the argument that public support for private businesses that compete with local businesses and given the big advantage of a facility right on the highway is unfair.

Why there should be any public support? Property rental, with any possible new construction on private dime.
I perfectly understand the concern about high cost vendors taking over those facilities. Competition is the most common answer to such concerns. There can be 2-3-4 truck stops on adjacent exits. Can there be 2-3-4 competing rest areas within same stretch?

[roadman]

Since it's already the case for a few places in Massachusetts (I-95/MA 128 at Exit 30, MA 128 alone between exits 19 and 18, and maybe one or two more on untolled freeways), does anyone have any information about how those are affecting local businesses?

The Massachusetts examples have existed since the 1950s.  Given the proliferation of other services at adjacent exits since then, I seriously doubt these service areas are having any impact on them.

That having been said, privatizing rest areas is just another example of allowing the marketing types to continue forcing their commercial messages, goods, and services on the public.  It is sad how few in government fail to recognize that this is NOT a good trend for society.  Especially when supposedly PUBLIC facilities are being corrupted to benefit a few private interests.

[Rothman]

Because the private sector's main motivation is to maximize profit, I don't know how the public property could be fairly and totally privatized.  Thinking similar contracts/leases to what the Thruway and other toll facilities do would be the only options.  Just selling property over and fully transferring ownership doesn't seem right to me.

That said, it will be very hard to overcome the argument that public support for private businesses that compete with local businesses and given the big advantage of a facility right on the highway is unfair.

Why there should be any public support? Property rental, with any possible new construction on private dime.
I perfectly understand the concern about high cost vendors taking over those facilities. Competition is the most common answer to such concerns. There can be 2-3-4 truck stops on adjacent exits. Can there be 2-3-4 competing rest areas within same stretch?

It becomes a question of how much demand there is.  If you had the one convenience store and gas station at a nearby exit, the new private rest area would wipe it out.  Probably not so much in say. Carlisle, PA, however, although Pilot and Petro would probably be able to kill anything proposed like this there .

Also, the prevention of a "sweetheart" deal for the private business would be a concern.  The lease would need to be approprately priced given the location advantage.

Gets complicated fairly quickly.

[hotdogPi]

What if the businesses were continuous (except at exits, on bridges, and through tunnels), with "frontage road lanes", which allow exiting at the beginning of a segment and forcing you to get back on the freeway at the end of the segment, separating the businesses from the main highway? Local businesses would be able to use the space, too; it wouldn't just be corporations.

I'm imagining something like US 1 north of Boston where the rightmost lane is the way it is now, and the inner lanes are separated and have a speed limit of 65 MPH instead of 50 MPH. While this probably won't work for US 1 itself, something similar could be created elsewhere.

[kalvado]

Because the private sector's main motivation is to maximize profit, I don't know how the public property could be fairly and totally privatized.  Thinking similar contracts/leases to what the Thruway and other toll facilities do would be the only options.  Just selling property over and fully transferring ownership doesn't seem right to me.

That said, it will be very hard to overcome the argument that public support for private businesses that compete with local businesses and given the big advantage of a facility right on the highway is unfair.

Why there should be any public support? Property rental, with any possible new construction on private dime.
I perfectly understand the concern about high cost vendors taking over those facilities. Competition is the most common answer to such concerns. There can be 2-3-4 truck stops on adjacent exits. Can there be 2-3-4 competing rest areas within same stretch?

It becomes a question of how much demand there is.  If you had the one convenience store and gas station at a nearby exit, the new private rest area would wipe it out.  Probably not so much in say. Carlisle, PA, however, although Pilot and Petro would probably be able to kill anything proposed like this there .

Also, the prevention of a "sweetheart" deal for the private business would be a concern.  The lease would need to be approprately priced given the location advantage.

Gets complicated fairly quickly.

I expect that most service areas would be branded Pilot or TA. SO what? Such service area near the exit ramp can wipe out everyone else the same way.

[jeffandnicole]

You could also wide up with an exclusive company, something similar to who does the reservation service for the national park system.

[PHLBOS]

What if the businesses were continuous (except at exits, on bridges, and through tunnels), with "frontage road lanes", which allow exiting at the beginning of a segment and forcing you to get back on the freeway at the end of the segment, separating the businesses from the main highway? Local businesses would be able to use the space, too; it wouldn't just be corporations.

Such has existed along TX highways (including Interstates & at least in the Dallas area) for quite some time.

[Rothman]

Because the private sector's main motivation is to maximize profit, I don't know how the public property could be fairly and totally privatized.  Thinking similar contracts/leases to what the Thruway and other toll facilities do would be the only options.  Just selling property over and fully transferring ownership doesn't seem right to me.

That said, it will be very hard to overcome the argument that public support for private businesses that compete with local businesses and given the big advantage of a facility right on the highway is unfair.

Why there should be any public support? Property rental, with any possible new construction on private dime.
I perfectly understand the concern about high cost vendors taking over those facilities. Competition is the most common answer to such concerns. There can be 2-3-4 truck stops on adjacent exits. Can there be 2-3-4 competing rest areas within same stretch?

It becomes a question of how much demand there is.  If you had the one convenience store and gas station at a nearby exit, the new private rest area would wipe it out.  Probably not so much in say. Carlisle, PA, however, although Pilot and Petro would probably be able to kill anything proposed like this there .

Also, the prevention of a "sweetheart" deal for the private business would be a concern.  The lease would need to be approprately priced given the location advantage.

Gets complicated fairly quickly.

I expect that most service areas would be branded Pilot or TA. SO what? Such service area near the exit ramp can wipe out everyone else the same way.

So, the business threatened with the wipe out will fight the effort and stands a good chance in winning.

[SP Cook]

IMHO, I could care less if a "local business" off a ramp or a contractor in a service area is getting the business.  The issue here, to me, is traffic flow.  The country is growing, and 95% of the growth is along the expressways.  Once rural areas that could easily handle roadside services, are now suburban or even urban places that simply cannot.  A dedicated turnpike style service area that would thus separate the thru traffic, or in some cases just the thru truck traffic, and the locals, would make life better for all.  And, considering the revenue, might be more cost effective than the common reworking of exits to handle more and more traffic.

[CtrlAltDel]

I'm surprised to find my self in the minority here, but I don't think it's a good idea at all to put services in interstate rest areas. It seems to me to be a fundamentally anticompetitive practice, subject to corruption and rent-seeking, as often happens with services in airports. The system now, by placing things at exits, facilitates competition, through the extra space available.

Also, commercializing the interstates in this way just seems wrong to me, but that could very well be because I'm not used to it.

[02 Park Ave]

How about having the first of these privatised rest areas along the westbound I-70 just south of Breezewood PA?

[kalvado]

I'm surprised to find my self in the minority here, but I don't think it's a good idea at all to put services in interstate rest areas. It seems to me to be a fundamentally anticompetitive practice, subject to corruption and rent-seeking, as often happens with services in airports. The system now, by placing things at exits, facilitates competition, through the extra space available.

Also, commercializing the interstates in this way just seems wrong to me, but that could very well be because I'm not used to it.

Unlike extremely captive environment of a hub airport, driver on interstate is less restrained from shopping around. Any big mall with food court is a good rest stop (local business? hmmm). I for one did exit Thruway with all service areas for a Flying J in Batavia - but in most convenience of a service area is too huge to ignore.
Stopping at a random exit for McDonalds/Arby's/Wendy's is always a gamble. And I wouldn't take chances at a random non-chain sandwich shop on a long trip as good restrooms may be hard to find (although no guarantee with a chain on a service area, had bad luck with that as well).

Probably I am biased since major interstates over here (Thruway and Masspike) have strong service areas, and I got used to those. But such service areas are damn convenient...

[US 89]

Might actually be a viable option in the western states.  A trip down I-10 west of Phoenix or I-40 in California are some prime examples where the local businesses actually go out of there way to price gouge travels.  Needles in California was infamous for $4.99 a gallon gasoline off of I-40 until recently.

Reminds me of the Texaco in Tusayan, AZ just south of the Grand Canyon. It's the closest station to the canyon and the only one for 25 miles. When I was there last, it was at least $4.50 per gallon of regular gas.

Looking at Needles even now, the major chains just off I-40 charge between $4.20 and 4.30. But just across the river in Arizona, the Arco is $2.26.

[Max Rockatansky]

Might actually be a viable option in the western states.  A trip down I-10 west of Phoenix or I-40 in California are some prime examples where the local businesses actually go out of there way to price gouge travels.  Needles in California was infamous for $4.99 a gallon gasoline off of I-40 until recently.

Reminds me of the Texaco in Tusayan, AZ just south of the Grand Canyon. It's the closest station to the canyon and the only one for 25 miles. When I was there last, it was at least $4.50 per gallon of regular gas.

Looking at Needles even now, the major chains just off I-40 charge between $4.20 and 4.30. But just across the river in Arizona, the Arco is $2.26.

I can to an extent understand remote locations costing more but the crap that has been allowed to go on in Needles for all these years is a joke.  Even the Chevron off of I-40 in Ludlow generally doesn't crack the $4 dollar barrier and that's whole hell of a lot more remote than Needles.  In general I've noticed most regular brand name stations charge a $0.30-0.50 extra for a gallon if they are right off the freeway.  Having services back on Florida's Turnpike was great, you knew what to expect from each station since they were largely uniform and run by the same contractor.

[hbelkins]

The service area on the Western Kentucky Turnpike closed last year. The contract was re-bid, and Huck's won. They're in the process of reopening it. I don't remember a big clamor out of the gas stations and restaurants in Beaver Dam trying to keep the place closed, but there was a huge outcry from frequent WK Parkway drivers to get the plaza reopened.

Moral of the story: Do what's best for motorists. The same franchise owner who owns a McDonald's on an exit can place a bid to run a McDonald's in an interstate service plaza.

[MNHighwayMan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture