BGS's on Surface Streets

[ftballfan]

This one from Michigan: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.013005,-85.6888832,3a,75y,35.49h,94.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stzX2cGirzv3t3qLaEaOmMw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

[kurumi]

Common in CT near an interchange, but rare in other places.

The only one that comes to mind more than 1 mile from a freeway is CT 2/32/82 in Norwich: https://goo.gl/maps/X559StKTrMU2

[paulthemapguy]

In Illinois, IDOT district 1 is not a fan.  IDOT district 2, which is anywhere from Rockton to Rockford to Rock Falls to Rock Island , likes them a bit more at urban junctions of state highways.  District 5 has a lot of these too (that's Bloomington, Champaign, Paris, Danville, and the surrounding area).

Here's one from District 5, in Paris:


IL-001-016N by Paul Drives, on Flickr

One of the plethora from District 2:


IL-002-040EE by Paul Drives, on Flickr

This one I've always considered to be an oddity.  It's in Kankakee County, which is in District 3, but I haven't found District 3 to use urban BGS's anywhere other than freeway interchanges.


IL-001-114S by Paul Drives, on Flickr

[ilpt4u]

The Carbondale District has them at the US 51 and IL 13 interchange of One Way Pairs in Downtown Carbondale. I can grab a few pics and post later.

IL 13 West: Main St
IL 13 East: Walnut St
US 51 North: Illinois Ave
US 51 South: University Ave

Regarding District 1, what about the huge BGS on Highland Ave near the I-88, I-355, and IL 56 intersections, in addition to the plentiful Retail and Office Buildings there in Downers Grove?

[jwolfer]

Here's one of the latter.  One of many examples in NJ is here on NJ 70 at NJ 73: https://goo.gl/maps/mPzWkUxxomu

Is Pt Pleasant the control city all along route 70?.. it used to be Lakehurst



Z981

[index]

Aha, here we go. Pullman, WA has a bunch of these. Here are a few.

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.7302204,-117.1814694,3a,33.8y,42.94h,97.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sB7Eblsqp210eCJJtLzJkMQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.7302204,-117.1814694,3a,57.5y,207.92h,98.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sB7Eblsqp210eCJJtLzJkMQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.7292125,-117.1824184,3a,34.4y,202.44h,91.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7oLdgNkcw7wEVMvWdX8l9A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.7297403,-117.1799687,3a,27.8y,226.23h,111.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgsgcwCrA81CJmOc3-_f3cA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.729638,-117.1798632,3a,15y,241.35h,96.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sN57dgyNBhXv7Abo6sqfszw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

In terms of roads, Pullman is a very interesting city. It has plenty signals that are an 8/12 inch combo,  mini BGSes and even a wigwag. The roads around it in the Palouse region are also pretty scenic.

[mrcmc888]

Newark, DE has a couple at the intersection of DE-273 and DE-896:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6830539,-75.753089,3a,75y,268.52h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0mzGJRu2Cpioc2EumbpOmA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[webny99]

I found another one on NY 104 in Greece.

[CrystalWalrein]

Everywhere in New Jersey.

There are a whole bunch on NJ 70 for jughandles and other signalised intersections.

The one closest to me that has nothing to do with a freeway (including the Brigantine Connector) would probably be at US 40 and US 322 near the Hamilton Mall in Hamilton Township.



Atlantic County mounted a rather small and pathetic one on CR 646:

[Buck87]

There are several on US 6 in Sandusky, OH between Cedar Point Dr and Butler Ave, here's one example:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4418171,-82.6815331,3a,66.8y,307.61h,86.1t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1skmGXFwFxYhRfobyKIOZjiw!2e0

[1995hoo]

I can think of a lot of BGSs on surface streets in the DC area. Here are a few of them.

Here's a fairly new one in the District of Columbia for the new ramp to the Third Street Tunnel:
https://goo.gl/maps/mPEnUWxFDyL2

This assembly is in Springfield, Virginia; I suppose you might consider these LGSs. The Springfield area is replete with assemblies of this sort because if there's anywhere where it's important to get into the correct lane, Springfield is that place:
https://goo.gl/maps/h4bpn4zDy8k

A short distance east of that, you'll find what I think may be one of the biggest BGSs I've ever seen on a surface street. The street looks a little like a freeway there due to the massive interchange, but it's still just an arterial with a 35-mph speed limit:
https://goo.gl/maps/hhfsPHvDk4J2

This one on US-1 just south of Alexandria is also pretty darn big; as far as I can recall, it's the biggest pull-through BGS I've ever seen on a surface street:
https://goo.gl/maps/Rx4WYfEBtZK2

If you don't think the APL sign above in Springfield is enough of a surface street, here's one in Alexandria:
https://goo.gl/maps/JmYYiGMAfxL2

[ET21]

Common by my hometown:
95th Street westbound approaching Harlem/294 https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7194464,-87.7932461,3a,75y,251.77h,91.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEr8gth6Aveqdn5756I0puQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Same interchange, but from Harlem Ave Northbound
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7138458,-87.7982853,3a,75y,3.31h,91.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFaeoU0B3lSI5vlpyh0muKw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

There's so many others around Chicagoland this thread could on for awhile

[Sam]

I can't think of any rural interchange that has ground-mounted green signs referencing the route and control city, as is the standard in other states.

NY 14 / NY 14A has one.

[plain]

Wilmington, NC. 'Nuff said.

[index]

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.9050062,-75.6736111,3a,47.7y,340.58h,94.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjthCai0Zoc5teTIvfww6pw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Here's one in Manteo, NC. Full-sized gantry for a three lane center turn lane road.

[Revive 755]

I don't believe I've seen Nebraska mentioned yet.  Almost every, if not all state highway junctions have a BGS with a partial diagram:  Example

Then there's this one on Highway 2 in Lincoln.

Another one for Rosa Parks Way in Downtown Lincoln:  Streetview

Missouri has some around the south end of MO 267:  Streetview

Also a few on MO 100 for the jughandle with Barrett Station Road:  Streetview

[jakeroot]

I don't believe I've seen Nebraska mentioned yet.  Almost every, if not all state highway junctions have a BGS with a partial diagram:

JN Winkler very briefly mentioned NE's diagrams on page 2:

I did not even know this was a thing. I'm extremely impressed at how good-looking those are, and the fact that they are easy to read, convey the message very accurately, and even include the "control city", eliminating the need for separate signage of those.

Without question, this should be a nationwide standard. Do any other states sign state route junctions like this?

Most states have an option for signing junctions that combines guide-sign shields, directions, and destinations on the same sign panel, but few use it as extensively as Washington state.  Here are some examples:  CA, OR, TX, NM, AZ, CO, KS,  . . .

There are several reasons the Washington way of doing things might attract resistance if it were proposed to be added to the MUTCD.  It combines routes, directions, and destinations on a single sign, which increases message loading above having just routes and directions on one assembly and destinations and directions on another assembly.  Having the shield and destination on the same panel also takes away flexibility if the state DOT wishes to remove one or more of the state routes but otherwise leave the signing unchanged.  And finally, some state DOTs have their own rather strict systems for distributing information across multiple sign panels that are not compatible with the WA approach.  For example, MN uses directions, shields, and arrows on green background to form what is effectively single-panel "sign salad" and is often mounted to traffic signal mast arms, while NE has junction diagrammatics.

[jakeroot]

Aha, here we go. Pullman, WA has a bunch of these. Here are a few.

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.7302204,-117.1814694,3a,33.8y,42.94h,97.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sB7Eblsqp210eCJJtLzJkMQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.7302204,-117.1814694,3a,57.5y,207.92h,98.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sB7Eblsqp210eCJJtLzJkMQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.7292125,-117.1824184,3a,34.4y,202.44h,91.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7oLdgNkcw7wEVMvWdX8l9A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.7297403,-117.1799687,3a,27.8y,226.23h,111.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgsgcwCrA81CJmOc3-_f3cA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.729638,-117.1798632,3a,15y,241.35h,96.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sN57dgyNBhXv7Abo6sqfszw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

In terms of roads, Pullman is a very interesting city. It has plenty signals that are an 8/12 inch combo,  mini BGSes and even a wigwag. The roads around it in the Palouse region are also pretty scenic.

Many of the signals in downtown Pullman have these 12-inch arrows, but I can't figure out what half of them would ever do. Many of them appear to be for turn filters (for when the parallel movement has a green arrow), but at some left turns, the parallel movement has no protected movement. At others, there's a signal even when there's no right turn (not sure what it would display). At others, there's a signal even when there is no parallel movement (because it's prohibited) (note that this arrow is missing a visor). Both post-mounted signals on this approach (on a one-way street) have 12-inch arrows on the bottom, despite the fact that no right turn is permitted at this approach (no idea what would be displayed o the 12-inch face on the right), and the left turn is only across a crosswalk (so no need for an arrow). All of the signals are the same age. My initial thought was that these were put in for future use, but I can't fathom what that use would be in many of these cases.

[mrsman]

"Sign salads" are very rare in Washington (if not non-existent). Virtually all junctions between two or more state routes have guide signs (alongside many non-state route junctions). For example, here's a very rural T-junction with a guide sign. Most states might just sign this with roadside shields and arrows, but Washington uses guide signs for this purpose instead. For the most part, the only ground-mounted shields are reassurance shields, and "TO" signs (sometimes these have a green background). But state route junctions are always signed with guide signs. I believe this practice is different than neighboring Oregon and Idaho.

Here's some examples of state route junctions in Washington, three rural and and an urban example...

So much easier to see than a sine salad.  I wish more states would follow this approach.

[mrsman]

Here's a great sign approaching a major street from a minor street.  Neither route is a numbered highway, but the sign does an excellent job of telling you how to reach certain nearby cities and how far away they are.  (Fairfax Ave approaching Slauson in the Ladera Heights neighborhood of LA County.)

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9871405,-118.3624989,3a,75y,29.63h,93.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7iKiGb_n2l1-PsxwLSHvNQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Something like this should be at every major surface street intersection.

My quibbles deal with some of the inaccuracies of this sign.

Slauson will lead you to Culver City and Downtown LA.  You do have to turn north from Slauson to reach the hearts of both LA and Culver City.  5 miles is a good approximation to Downtown Culver City via Slauson, Sepulveda, Jefferson, Duquesne.  9 miles is a good approximation for LA via Slauson and Figueroa.

Hollywood is also 9 miles away take Fairfax to Stocker to La Brea.

West Los Angeles is not a good destination from this corner.  First, it is not precise.  It usually refers to the area between Beverly Hills and Santa Monica.  It would generally be better to go on Slauson and then to Sepulveda to reach this area.  I believe they were probably trying to refer to West Hollywood which is about 8 miles due north.

THe problem is that there aren't many good signs at the places where you have to turn to tell you how to reach those destinations.  Fairfax will end at Stocker adn there is no sign there directing you to reach Hollywood.

So the sign is good, but it needs companion signs to actually guide people to their destination.

[Roadrunner75]

My first thought when I read the topic:

[Rothman]

My first thought when I read the topic:

Man, I loved those sets when I was a kid.

[jakeroot]

"Sign salads" are very rare in Washington (if not non-existent). Virtually all junctions between two or more state routes have guide signs (alongside many non-state route junctions). For example, here's a very rural T-junction with a guide sign. Most states might just sign this with roadside shields and arrows, but Washington uses guide signs for this purpose instead. For the most part, the only ground-mounted shields are reassurance shields, and "TO" signs (sometimes these have a green background). But state route junctions are always signed with guide signs. I believe this practice is different than neighboring Oregon and Idaho.

Here's some examples of state route junctions in Washington, three rural and and an urban example...

https://i.imgur.com/qovKCYT.png
https://i.imgur.com/PvPZsYK.png
https://i.imgur.com/G94Y8Ky.png
https://i.imgur.com/Bc7lHyC.png

So much easier to see than a sine salad.  I wish more states would follow this approach.

I agree. But according to Mr Winkler, this method increases "message loading" (in addition to a couple other minor issues), so other states aren't too keen on using this method. What I don't understand is why the 'sign salad + control city sign' method isn't used on freeways, if that style is easier to take in at-speed? In my humble opinion, junctions should all be signed the same way. There are plenty of surface streets all across this country with a speed limit not much (if not at all) slower than freeway speeds, yet we're happy to throw sign salads at you like you're going 25 or 30.

FWIW, sign salads are impossible to not have if there's just that many routes going through a junction. But I would argue that placing the routes on a guide sign makes them easier to read. You could have one or two destinations, followed by all the proper route shields for that direction, on the top half of the sign, with the lower half of the sign dedicated to the opposite.

[MNHighwayMan]

I find it hard to believe that simply putting everything on a green background makes it harder to comprehend.

[J N Winkler]

The issue is that shields + directions + destinations packs in more information in the same reading time than just shields + directions on one sign and destinations on another sign down the road.  If you are set on getting rid of sign salads, putting shields + directions against a green background is one way to do it.

Freeway signs do combine shields, directions, and destinations, but are larger (primary destination legend is more than twice as high as on conventional-road guide signs) and appear in less visually clustered environments.  At the vast majority of exits, a sign with shield, direction, and destination is part of a sequence that repeats the same information at least once.