Interstate 44 Turnpike Sprawl:

[In_Correct]

Interstate 44 has tolled segments. During the major cities that it goes through, the Interstate is free. At the edge of the cities, it is the end point of one of the turnpikes. How were these determined, and were the turnpikes ever shortened or Interstate realigned to provide free access to nearby businesses sprawling along the turnpikes? What happens if the cities expand near a turnpike? Would the turnpike have to be shortened or Interstate realigned?

[Scott5114]

The I-44 turnpikes were built during the 1950s and 1960s before sprawl was really much of a thing. Because they don't have as many exits as free interstates, there isn't really much of an incentive to build up next to them, so they don't really induce sprawl all that much.

[hbelkins]

The I-44 turnpikes were built during the 1950s and 1960s before sprawl was really much of a thing. Because they don't have as many exits as free interstates, there isn't really much of an incentive to build up next to them, so they don't really induce sprawl all that much.

And they have service areas, so there's even less incentive to put restaurants and gas stations at the rural exits. I've noticed the same thing in Kansas.

What I find interesting is that as the I-44 turnpikes approach OKC (westbound) and Tulsa, they basically force I-44 to exit the through route and direct through traffic onto unnumbered toll roads.

[DJStephens]

Remember there being an "escape" heading WB in the NE corner of the state, so if you wished to take old 66, (state route 66) one could do that.   Have hauled dual axle trailers through there in the past, and wished to avoid the axle toll rate.  Was not in any rush.   Those turnpikes (Rogers and Turner) are definitely pre Interstate (1956) and may even be late forties in vintage.  Have always believed, since first traveling on them in early nineties, that a complete rebuild is warranted, with widening to outside, expansion of the median, and flattening of vertical curves, to produce a safer road.   

[Bobby5280]

The most obvious (or easiest) "escape" ramp I can think of along the I-44 turnpikes in Oklahoma is Exit 221B on the SW side of Tulsa for WB I-44. It's the turn off for OK-66 to Sapulpa. It's a left exit with 2 lanes no less. I have accidentally wound up on it a couple times over the years.

Every I-44 turnpike in Oklahoma has a last free exit escape ramp of sorts. I can understand truckers wanting to shun-pike the toll booths on I-44. As far cars, one will blow a lot more in terms of time by shun-piking I-44. And the extra fuel required for the added mileage, different speed zones as well as stop and go traffic in various towns would probably offset much of any cost savings gained by avoiding the tolls. Then there's the added chance of getting speeding tickets due to all the changing speed limits. The OHP doesn't mess around much when it comes to speeders on the turnpikes. But when you're on I-44 it's a lot easier to maintain a consistent and legal speed (especially if you have a Pike Pass for the toll gates).

I agree about the widening the Turner Turnpike. It should be at least 3 lanes in each direction 100% of the way between OKC and Tulsa. Sometimes I don't understand what the OTA is doing to that road. They've been doing a lot of asphalt overlay on it lately, but not doing much to add capacity.

[bugo]

I made it from one end of the 88 mile long Turner Turnpike to the other in 57 minutes once.

Nexus 5X

[bugo]

There are some businesses next to exits off the Creek Turnpike.

Nexus 5X

[US 89]

I made it from one end of the 88 mile long Turner Turnpike to the other in 57 minutes once.

That's an average speed of 92 mph. Better hope the police don't read this forum!

[bugo]

The statue of limitations has run out.

Nexus 5X

[The Ghostbuster]

Once upon a time, the three toll roads that today are part of Interstate 44 had their own exit numbers (sequentially numbered). In fact, all toll roads in Oklahoma had sequential exit numbers. The Interstate 44 toll roads went mileage-based first, while the other toll roads went mileage-based in 1997.

[US71]

There are some businesses next to exits off the Creek Turnpike.

Someone told me Cherokee Turnpike shut down the Concession stop. Any idea if this is true?

[Bobby5280]

The service place on the Cherokee Turnpike was demolished about 5 or 6 years ago. At first I thought it might be re-built -like what happened in a couple other places such as the service plaza on I-44 near the Walters Exit. In this case it was just removed. I guess the vehicle count wasn't high enough to keep it in business.

[sparker]

The service place on the Cherokee Turnpike was demolished about 5 or 6 years ago. At first I thought it might be re-built -like what happened in a couple other places such as the service plaza on I-44 near the Walters Exit. In this case it was just removed. I guess the vehicle count wasn't high enough to keep it in business.

Placing a service plaza on as short a turnpike as the Cherokee might not have been such a good idea with which to begin.  In that situation, unless you have kids in the car who press you to stop at one -- or haven't calculated your remaining fuel accurately -- they're similar to a pit stop in a race -- you don't do it unless really necessary; another 15-20 miles and you're back on ostensibly slower full-access roads with services.   

[sparker]

Didn't realize that the OK plazas functioned 24/7!  Except for the possibility that the cops might be lurking in the parking lot looking for folks with off-hour munchies, that might be extenuating circumstances for plazas on lesser-traveled pikes.  My night-driving routine involved bags of Cornnuts and Skittles plus a cooler full of Diet Coke; never counted on any place I actually liked being open after about 1 in the morning (this was before Carl's Jr. and In-N-Out spread nationwide). 

[rte66man]

The Turner Turnpike opened to traffic in 1953.  The Will Rogers opened ca 1958.  The H.E. Bailey opened in 1964.

[bugo]

There are some businesses next to exits off the Creek Turnpike.

Someone told me Cherokee Turnpike shut down the Concession stop. Any idea if this is true?

That is correct. The Cherokee Turnpike's service plaza was unusual in that it featured a Burger King. Most service plazas in Oklahoma have a McDonald's. Are there any service plazas left that don't have a McDonald's?

Nexus 5X

[Bobby5280]

The one that was re-built just North of the Walters Exit on I-44 no longer has a McDonald's. The new EZ-GO convenience store building does have a little indie restaurant in it though: Back Forty Barbecue.

The day can't come soon enough for OTA to replace the old toll plaza nearby. The OK-5 bridge going over the top of it isn't in the best of shape; the pavement looks absolutely terrible. Not only do they need to build a new, modern toll plaza, they need to re-build that turnpike exit. There's a few other bridges along that stretch that look like they date back to the 1960's.

[sparker]

The one that was re-built just North of the Walters Exit on I-44 no longer has a McDonald's. The new EZ-GO convenience store building does have a little indie restaurant in it though: Back Forty Barbecue.

The day can't come soon enough for OTA to replace the old toll plaza nearby. The OK-5 bridge going over the top of it isn't in the best of shape; the pavement looks absolutely terrible. Not only do they need to build a new, modern toll plaza, they need to re-build that turnpike exit. There's a few other bridges along that stretch that look like they date back to the 1960's.

Only the '60's???  We've got bridges on our Interstates dating back to 1946-47!!! (and one concrete sectional arch bridge dating from 1928 that I-5 was squeezed through!).  But your point is made -- there's a shitload of 50+ year-old bridges across the country both on and off Interstates that have long surpassed their projected lifespan -- but who's got the $$ to address them all?  It's sure not like the '60's, when 200 miles of freeway were being built in CA alone every year; now, Caltrans is lucky if they can support 2-3 major projects statewide at any given time -- and those are spread out over several years or even decades (look at the Petaluma Narrows project!).  And there's a better than even chance our gas tax increase will be repealed?  Please!  Voters seem to think that funding falls like manna from heaven whenever needed.  But no one in a position of influence wants to be the one to butt heads with the congenital taxcutters and try to give the public a needed dose of reality:  "Nice freeway you have there.  Shame if something were to happen to it!"

[DJStephens]

And yet we can expend $68 billion on "fantasy" trains, and trillions in Iraq.   

[bugo]

Mmmm BBQ. Is it good 'q or is it average like Rib Crib (The McDonald's of BBQ)? Is it authentic Oklahoma barbecue?

The one that was re-built just North of the Walters Exit on I-44 no longer has a McDonald's. The new EZ-GO convenience store building does have a little indie restaurant in it though: Back Forty Barbecue.

The day can't come soon enough for OTA to replace the old toll plaza nearby. The OK-5 bridge going over the top of it isn't in the best of shape; the pavement looks absolutely terrible. Not only do they need to build a new, modern toll plaza, they need to re-build that turnpike exit. There's a few other bridges along that stretch that look like they date back to the 1960's.

Nexus 5X

[Bobby5280]

I couldn't tell you. I haven't eaten there (yet). Usually when I want some good barbecue in this region I just go to John and Cook's in Lawton.

[bugo]

Okay, let's say Tulsa is going to build a light rail system. For it to be effective, everyone in the city should be within a mile of a train station. This would likely come in the form of the section line roads. Tulsa's city limits start at 126th Street North all the way down to 121th Street South and it begins at 73rd West Avenue and goes as far east as South 257th East Avenue. That is a lot of rail lines and it will take lots of trains. This would cost a trillion dollars and would provide little benefit as most commuters will continue to use their cars. Adoption of a rail system would happen very slowly. It would be underutilized for decades. It would be the biggest boondoggle this state has ever seen, and this state likes its boondoggles and would be a parasite on the city budget.

[Bobby5280]

Tulsa doesn't have the population numbers (particularly in the right demograhic brackets) to make a light rail system work at all. People in high income and upper middle class income brackets aren't going to lower themselves by using mass transit and risk riding with the common folk. And if the rail lines serve any low income zones then people in "better" neighborhoods won't want the rail line coming anywhere near them.

Tulsa is also seriously de-centralized. It does have an obvious downtown zone, but the city has many other places where people work and shop. And those destinations are spread all over the place.

If one were to at least pick some place to make a start on a light rail network, where could it even be built? I would think a line starting in/near Sand Springs, running thru Downtown, then East to Memorial Road where it would turn South and run parallel would be an obvious start. Good luck on getting ROW for the rail line and stations.

[rte66man]

Tulsa doesn't have the population numbers (particularly in the right demograhic brackets) to make a light rail system work at all. People in high income and upper middle class income brackets aren't going to lower themselves by using mass transit and risk riding with the common folk. And if the rail lines serve any low income zones then people in "better" neighborhoods won't want the rail line coming anywhere near them.

Tulsa is also seriously de-centralized. It does have an obvious downtown zone, but the city has many other places where people work and shop. And those destinations are spread all over the place.

If one were to at least pick some place to make a start on a light rail network, where could it even be built? I would think a line starting in/near Sand Springs, running thru Downtown, then East to Memorial Road where it would turn South and run parallel would be an obvious start. Good luck on getting ROW for the rail line and stations.

Whatever happened to the idea of using the old Midland Valley tracks (UP now?) SE to Broken Arrow for commuter rail?  Once you get east of 169, it would appear to be feasible to build stations.

[sparker]

A light rail line built along a city street will eat a minimum of two lanes just for the pair of railroad tracks. Additional space is needed for pole structures holding up overhead electrical lines. The stations are going to eat up quite a bit more space. It's one thing to build a light rail line along a street with modest traffic counts and even allow vehicles and the rail track to share the same lane. It's another thing entirely to attempt building light rail tracks down the lanes of an extremely busy arterial like Memorial Road. Portland's light rail line doesn't attempt any of that. Same of Dallas and other cities. If the road is busy enough then the light rail line has to be grade separated. That means either building the rail line as an elevated structure (pretty expensive) or putting it underground (ridiculously expensive).

When the San Jose LR was being planned in the mid-to-late '80's, the first thing that all parties agreed upon was that sharing lanes with vehicles was a bad idea; except for cross-streets, there is easement separation for all lines.  Whether in the median of a divided arterial (North First Street, Tasman, Capitol Ave.), a freeway (CA 85 & 87), or sitting alongside a commercial RR branch line (the Winchester line), some form of isolation is manifest. 

For all the issues and criticism the system has taken over its 29 years of operation, VMT LR at least listened to its legal advisors on that one; virtually all incidents can be and have been chalked up to motorist/pedestrian error (and, unfortunately, an inordinate number of suicide-by-train incidents).  As nearly 200 years of street running by U.S. railroads & transit systems have shown, such practice, regardless of train configuration, is a recipe for continuous problems.