Pennsylvania

[Bitmapped]

Traffic flows pretty well on the existing US 220, so there's no need for a major upgrade with Corridor O. I would suggest adding some strategic passing lanes along the route for when traffic backs up behind a slowpoke, but that's really all it needs.

We could say the same thing about US-219.  The new 4-lane freeway section that just opened in Somerset County PA bypasses the original US-219 where part only carried about 5,000 AADT. 

US 220 and old US 219 are hardly equivalent. Old US 219 has a number of low speed curves and steeper grades, plus a 25mph speed limit through Berlin. US 220, on the other hand, runs down a wide rural valley. Other than right at the state line, I believe there's one curve signed for reduced speed (45mph). The route has a consistent 55 speed limit and traffic generally flows above that.

Is the new US 219 freeway overkill? Yes. Was the old route adequate? No.

[Beltway]

Traffic flows pretty well on the existing US 220, so there's no need for a major upgrade with Corridor O. I would suggest adding some strategic passing lanes along the route for when traffic backs up behind a slowpoke, but that's really all it needs.

We could say the same thing about US-219.  The new 4-lane freeway section that just opened in Somerset County PA bypasses the original US-219 where part only carried about 5,000 AADT. 

US 220 and old US 219 are hardly equivalent. Old US 219 has a number of low speed curves and steeper grades, plus a 25mph speed limit through Berlin. US 220, on the other hand, runs down a wide rural valley. Other than right at the state line, I believe there's one curve signed for reduced speed (45mph). The route has a consistent 55 speed limit and traffic generally flows above that.
Is the new US 219 freeway overkill? Yes. Was the old route adequate? No.

PennDOT dropped $300 million there.  Lot of money for such low AADTs.

[Roadgeek Adam]

The problem is that the part of 219 that could absolutely use an upgrade is the stretch from DuBois to Salamanca, the problem is that there's a lot of Section 4F problems and numerous upon numerous fights that would occur of building any type of freeway in that stretch.

[Beltway]

The problem is that the part of 219 that could absolutely use an upgrade is the stretch from DuBois to Salamanca, the problem is that there's a lot of Section 4F problems and numerous upon numerous fights that would occur of building any type of freeway in that stretch.

When is the NY US-219 section south of I-86 going to be rehabbed?  The old concrete pavement has been bump-de-bump going at least back to 2008 when I started using that section.

PennDOT did a great job rehabbing the pavement and bridges on the US-219 Bradford Expressway back around 2010-12.

[Roadgeek Adam]

They did, but that section continues to fall apart north of the border. Not to mention the speed limits are stupid through Limestone.

That said, with Lantz Corners, DuBois and Mt. Jewett growing as a corridor of business and tourism, 219 through the Ridgeway/Johnsonburg/Brockwayville area down to DuBois is horribly inadequate. The problem is that there's no way you can build a freeway through much of that area.

[Beltway]

They did, but that section continues to fall apart north of the border. Not to mention the speed limits are stupid through Limestone.

When was that?  It looks like the old jointed reinforced concrete pavement (JRCP) from the 1960s.

That said, with Lantz Corners, DuBois and Mt. Jewett growing as a corridor of business and tourism, 219 through the Ridgeway/Johnsonburg/Brockwayville area down to DuBois is horribly inadequate. The problem is that there's no way you can build a freeway through much of that area.

They could, but it would be very expensive.  I would like to see them explore bypasses of the towns and dualization of rural sections.  Much less expensive than a freeway, and a 4-lane rural highway (on the likes of US-22 west of Ebensburg) should be more than adequate for the traffic volumes well into the future.

[Roadgeek Adam]

I am talking about the PA section they redid, but the section north of the border is even shabbier now.

Regardless, I don't think there are areas you could even bypass some of these. (Johnsonburg already is bypassed.) It would cost tons in homes and property alone.

[seicer]

They did, but that section continues to fall apart north of the border. Not to mention the speed limits are stupid through Limestone.

When was that?  It looks like the old jointed reinforced concrete pavement (JRCP) from the 1960s.

1962/1984. It was a two-lane on a four-lane ROW until it was widened in 1984 in conjunction with NY 17 being completed through the area. The concrete suffers the same problem as NY 17 did until it was rehabilitated just a few years ago with JRCP with spacing that's too far apart, so each slab cracked mid-slab.

More annoying is the 40 MPH SL through a "town."

[Beltway]

They did, but that section continues to fall apart north of the border. Not to mention the speed limits are stupid through Limestone.

When was that?  It looks like the old jointed reinforced concrete pavement (JRCP) from the 1960s.

1962/1984. It was a two-lane on a four-lane ROW until it was widened in 1984 in conjunction with NY 17 being completed through the area. The concrete suffers the same problem as NY 17 did until it was rehabilitated just a few years ago with JRCP with spacing that's too far apart, so each slab cracked mid-slab.
More annoying is the 40 MPH SL through a "town."

Interesting.  It all looked like 1960s vintage pavement to me.  Nevertheless 1984 is 34 years ago, definitely long in the tooth for any concrete pavement.

I agree about the 40 mph speed limit.  About 2 miles on an at-grade expressway, just because it is near a village.  But that is a whole different issue from the pavement issue.

[Alps]

They did, but that section continues to fall apart north of the border. Not to mention the speed limits are stupid through Limestone.

When was that?  It looks like the old jointed reinforced concrete pavement (JRCP) from the 1960s.

1962/1984. It was a two-lane on a four-lane ROW until it was widened in 1984 in conjunction with NY 17 being completed through the area. The concrete suffers the same problem as NY 17 did until it was rehabilitated just a few years ago with JRCP with spacing that's too far apart, so each slab cracked mid-slab.
More annoying is the 40 MPH SL through a "town."

Interesting.  It all looked like 1960s vintage pavement to me.  Nevertheless 1984 is 34 years ago, definitely long in the tooth for any concrete pavement.

I agree about the 40 mph speed limit.  About 2 miles on an at-grade expressway, just because it is near a village.  But that is a whole different issue from the pavement issue.

Depends on the concrete. US 1 and 13 in PA had original 1930s concrete for 75-80 years. Many highways in the metro NY area still have original concrete in spots (US 46 under bridges in Fairfield for example). If done well, 34 years isn't long. I would reasonably expect 50 in most cases.

[Beltway]

It all looked like 1960s vintage pavement to me.  Nevertheless 1984 is 34 years ago, definitely long in the tooth for any concrete pavement.
I agree about the 40 mph speed limit.  About 2 miles on an at-grade expressway, just because it is near a village.  But that is a whole different issue from the pavement issue.

Depends on the concrete. US 1 and 13 in PA had original 1930s concrete for 75-80 years. Many highways in the metro NY area still have original concrete in spots (US 46 under bridges in Fairfield for example). If done well, 34 years isn't long. I would reasonably expect 50 in most cases.

The VA I-85 concrete pavement between MP 40 and 67 performed very well and lasted about 40 years before being rehabbed and resurfaced with asphalt.  Better than average performance.  Most don't make it that long without getting the bump-de-bumps and it is especially bad in certain vehicles like dump trucks.

[jeffandnicole]

It all looked like 1960s vintage pavement to me.  Nevertheless 1984 is 34 years ago, definitely long in the tooth for any concrete pavement.
I agree about the 40 mph speed limit.  About 2 miles on an at-grade expressway, just because it is near a village.  But that is a whole different issue from the pavement issue.

Depends on the concrete. US 1 and 13 in PA had original 1930s concrete for 75-80 years. Many highways in the metro NY area still have original concrete in spots (US 46 under bridges in Fairfield for example). If done well, 34 years isn't long. I would reasonably expect 50 in most cases.

The VA I-85 concrete pavement between MP 40 and 67 performed very well and lasted about 40 years before being rehabbed and resurfaced with asphalt.  Better than average performance.  Most don't make it that long without getting the bump-de-bumps and it is especially bad in certain vehicles like dump trucks.

The concrete isn't bad. It's the joints that have gone bad, which is a relatively easy process to fix - meaning, a total road replacement isn't necessary.

[Beltway]

[NY US-219 between PA and I-86]

The concrete isn't bad. It's the joints that have gone bad, which is a relatively easy process to fix - meaning, a total road replacement isn't necessary.

I didn't suggest that a total road replacement was necessary.  The damaged/deteriorated pavement sites comprises perhaps 15% of the total square yardage, and that does need to be demolished and replaced.

[Alps]

It all looked like 1960s vintage pavement to me.  Nevertheless 1984 is 34 years ago, definitely long in the tooth for any concrete pavement.
I agree about the 40 mph speed limit.  About 2 miles on an at-grade expressway, just because it is near a village.  But that is a whole different issue from the pavement issue.

Depends on the concrete. US 1 and 13 in PA had original 1930s concrete for 75-80 years. Many highways in the metro NY area still have original concrete in spots (US 46 under bridges in Fairfield for example). If done well, 34 years isn't long. I would reasonably expect 50 in most cases.

The VA I-85 concrete pavement between MP 40 and 67 performed very well and lasted about 40 years before being rehabbed and resurfaced with asphalt.  Better than average performance.  Most don't make it that long without getting the bump-de-bumps and it is especially bad in certain vehicles like dump trucks.

The concrete isn't bad. It's the joints that have gone bad, which is a relatively easy process to fix - meaning, a total road replacement isn't necessary.

Yup, the key to concrete lasting 75+ years is to work those joints over partway through. PA is aggressive with this and frequently closes long stretches of a single lane of freeway to repair all of the concrete joints.

[seicer]

It all looked like 1960s vintage pavement to me.  Nevertheless 1984 is 34 years ago, definitely long in the tooth for any concrete pavement.
I agree about the 40 mph speed limit.  About 2 miles on an at-grade expressway, just because it is near a village.  But that is a whole different issue from the pavement issue.

Depends on the concrete. US 1 and 13 in PA had original 1930s concrete for 75-80 years. Many highways in the metro NY area still have original concrete in spots (US 46 under bridges in Fairfield for example). If done well, 34 years isn't long. I would reasonably expect 50 in most cases.

The VA I-85 concrete pavement between MP 40 and 67 performed very well and lasted about 40 years before being rehabbed and resurfaced with asphalt.  Better than average performance.  Most don't make it that long without getting the bump-de-bumps and it is especially bad in certain vehicles like dump trucks.

The concrete isn't bad. It's the joints that have gone bad, which is a relatively easy process to fix - meaning, a total road replacement isn't necessary.

With US 219 and I-86/NY 17, it was the mid-span cracks that were the issue, not the joints. It had something like 30' spacings on joints rather than 15' spacings that are more typical for today, but both roads don't have heavy truck traffic. (And other roads with far spacings, like I-64 in eastern West Virginia, are in great shape after 30 years.) I guess you could go through and diamond grind it to be smooth again, but it doesn't solve the underlying issue. I'm not an engineer so I will defer on solutions to someone like Steve.

[Beltway]

The concrete isn't bad. It's the joints that have gone bad, which is a relatively easy process to fix - meaning, a total road replacement isn't necessary.

With US 219 and I-86/NY 17, it was the mid-span cracks that were the issue, not the joints. It had something like 30' spacings on joints rather than 15' spacings that are more typical for today, but both roads don't have heavy truck traffic. (And other roads with far spacings, like I-64 in eastern West Virginia, are in great shape after 30 years.) I guess you could go through and diamond grind it to be smooth again, but it doesn't solve the underlying issue. I'm not an engineer so I will defer on solutions to someone like Steve.

Agreed, pavement engineers can determine what needs to be done.  It does need serious rehabbing to replace the damaged slabs.  Whether it needs overlay with asphalt is something that the engineers can determine.

[jeffandnicole]

The concrete isn't bad. It's the joints that have gone bad, which is a relatively easy process to fix - meaning, a total road replacement isn't necessary.

With US 219 and I-86/NY 17, it was the mid-span cracks that were the issue, not the joints. It had something like 30' spacings on joints rather than 15' spacings that are more typical for today, but both roads don't have heavy truck traffic. (And other roads with far spacings, like I-64 in eastern West Virginia, are in great shape after 30 years.) I guess you could go through and diamond grind it to be smooth again, but it doesn't solve the underlying issue. I'm not an engineer so I will defer on solutions to someone like Steve.

Agreed, pavement engineers can determine what needs to be done.  It does need serious rehabbing to replace the damaged slabs.  Whether it needs overlay with asphalt is something that the engineers can determine.

An asphalt overlay without fixing the underlying problem is a disaster. The asphalt will be cracked and heaved along with the concrete in short order.

[Beltway]

Agreed, pavement engineers can determine what needs to be done.  It does need serious rehabbing to replace the damaged slabs.  Whether it needs overlay with asphalt is something that the engineers can determine.

An asphalt overlay without fixing the underlying problem is a disaster. The asphalt will be cracked and heaved along with the concrete in short order.

I have -never- suggested doing that.  Look at my sequence above -- first fully rehab the concrete, then overlay with asphalt if needed.  The need for an asphalt overlay would be predicated on whether the rehabbed concrete has issues with roughness and/or troughing.

[jeffandnicole]

Agreed, pavement engineers can determine what needs to be done.  It does need serious rehabbing to replace the damaged slabs.  Whether it needs overlay with asphalt is something that the engineers can determine.

An asphalt overlay without fixing the underlying problem is a disaster. The asphalt will be cracked and heaved along with the concrete in short order.

I have -never- suggested doing that.  Look at my sequence above -- first fully rehab the concrete, then overlay with asphalt if needed.  The need for an asphalt overlay would be predicated on whether the rehabbed concrete has issues with roughness and/or troughing.

Another reason why I've seen asphalt overlays - change in lane configuration.  Since shoulders generally have a steeper slope, if they need to squeeze in another lane without regrading the entire original base, they can do an asphalt overlay which will allow them to achieve a slightly less slope on the outer lanes.

[CentralPAGal]

Penndot is looking to upgrade part of I-83 between Exit 24/PA 295 (soon to be PA 297) and Exit 28/PA 392. They want to add an Exit 26 at PA 921, and make the roadway six lanes (not sure if the added lanes would be exit-to-exit or mainline.)

https://www.wgal.com/article/new-interchange-more-lanes-recommended-for-stretch-of-i-83/25441915

I wonder if the overall idea is to tie this into the North York Widening that's coming up in a few years...

Edit: dumbass me had a brainfart and mixed up exits 24 and 28

[Roadsguy]

North York Widening

Wait what? How'd I miss that?

The concepts show the six lanes continuing a bit north of PA 181, so it seems it will make it almost to Exit 24 (though the southern end doesn't have an end transition either...). It would be extremely stupid not to widen it through Exit 24.

The article said six lanes from 24 to 28, so it will at least be mainline through the new Exit 26.

[74/171FAN]

Penndot is looking to upgrade part of I-83 between Exit 24/PA 238 and Exit 28/PA 295 (soon to be PA 297). They want to add an Exit 26 at PA 921, and make the roadway six lanes (not sure if the added lanes would be exit-to-exit or mainline.)

https://www.wgal.com/article/new-interchange-more-lanes-recommended-for-stretch-of-i-83/25441915

I wonder if the overall idea is to tie this into the North York Widening that's coming up in a few years...

FTFY.  At least you got the location of PA 921 right. 

[CentralPAGal]

Penndot is looking to upgrade part of I-83 between Exit 24/PA 238 and Exit 28/PA 295 (soon to be PA 297). They want to add an Exit 26 at PA 921, and make the roadway six lanes (not sure if the added lanes would be exit-to-exit or mainline.)

https://www.wgal.com/article/new-interchange-more-lanes-recommended-for-stretch-of-i-83/25441915

I wonder if the overall idea is to tie this into the North York Widening that's coming up in a few years...

FTFY.  At least you got the location of PA 921 right.

Yeah, my bad. I know those exits well, having driven that stretch of 83 enough. Just has a brainfart.

[sbeaver44]

Re:PA 295 -> PA 297

It's already signed, I drove it this morning.  The BGS from 83 still says 295, but PennDOT needs to issue a separate contract for that.

[74/171FAN]

Re:PA 295 -> PA 297

It's already signed, I drove it this morning.  The BGS from 83 still says 295, but PennDOT needs to issue a separate contract for that.

Thanks, I had already made the change in Travel Mapping after the news release came out as it implied that this would be done quickly.