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Started by Alex, March 07, 2009, 07:01:05 PM

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Roadsguy

Quote from: Alps on January 11, 2019, 11:44:32 AM
Quote from: seicer on January 11, 2019, 10:18:24 AM
How would the Clarks Summit interchange have been configured if the PA Turnpike Extension followed I-81 as originally intended? There are remnants of the mainline that's visible but nothing for the ramps.
Regular trumpet.

IIRC it would have been along the lines of this:



Note that the existing sharp curve and its southwest approach would have been the northbound off-ramp. The stub visible today would have been the northbound carriageway. There's a southbound concrete stub too, but it's been mostly paved over as presumably an emergency pull-off. The trumpet loop and northbound on-ramp I'm just guessing on.
Mileage-based exit numbering implies the existence of mileage-cringe exit numbering.


74/171FAN

I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

Gnutella

Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 11, 2019, 05:04:02 PM
PennDOT Announces Plans for Route 414 Landslide Repair in Leroy Township, Bradford County

PA 414 has been closed due to a landslide since early December.

On a related note, PA 120 between Emporium and Renovo was down to one lane when I was there in July, due to subsidence under the road.

If you've never been there, that part of the Commonwealth has severe terrain, and PA 120 is the only viable east/west route between I-80 and U.S. 6.

74/171FAN

New Exclusive Left-Turn Lane Now Open for Motorists on Chester Road at Oregon Pike

The left-turn lane is for PA 272.  I'll have to check this out when I go to Shady Maple on my birthday.
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

ixnay

#979
Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 12, 2019, 05:29:23 AM
New Exclusive Left-Turn Lane Now Open for Motorists on Chester Road at Oregon Pike

The left-turn lane is for PA 272.  I'll have to check this out when I go to Shady Maple on my birthday.

That stretch of 272 was U.S. 222 waaaaaay back in the day (and still is 222 south of the 30 bypass [until the junction with PA 501, which is Lititz Pike, which goes up to Lititz, whose pronunciation reminds me of Lits, as in dearly departed Lit Brothers department stores in Philadelphia]).

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

Roadsguy

Quote from: ixnay on January 12, 2019, 08:43:52 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 12, 2019, 05:29:23 AM
New Exclusive Left-Turn Lane Now Open for Motorists on Chester Road at Oregon Pike

The left-turn lane is for PA 272.  I'll have to check this out when I go to Shady Maple on my birthday.

That stretch of 272 was U.S. 222 waaaaaay back in the day (and still is 222 south of the 30 bypass [until the junction with PA 501, which is Lititz Pike, which goes up to Lititz, whose pronunciation reminds me of Lits, as in dearly departed Lit Brothers department stores in Philadelphia]).

ixnay

Oregon Pike is the "official" US 222, but functionally only carries northbound. Southbound 222 uses PA 501 because you can't exit westbound 30 and turn left onto southbound Oregon Pike. The signage is a bit inconsistent, though. That movement was missing even before the big reconstruction in the late '90s, though I don't know how well it was signed then.

About time they opened that turning lane. It's been sitting striped for weeks.
Mileage-based exit numbering implies the existence of mileage-cringe exit numbering.

briantroutman

Quote from: seicer on January 11, 2019, 10:18:24 AM
How would the Clarks Summit interchange have been configured if the PA Turnpike Extension followed I-81 as originally intended? There are remnants of the mainline that's visible but nothing for the ramps.

I think Roadsguy is essentially correct: If the Northeast Extension had been built as originally planned (prior to the 1956 Act), it would have continued northward to Binghamton along what later became the I-81 alignment, and the Clarks Summit Interchange would have been a trumpet just like countless other interchanges throughout the PTC's system.

The one adjustment I'd make to Roadsguy's sketch is that I'd expect a PTC trumpet from that era to be more geometrically perfect–i.e. with the underpass crossing the mainline at a 90° angle.

The 1960 aerial photo on PennPilot shows an interesting snapshot of the Clarks Summit Interchange area in the brief period when the Northeast Extension was complete up to Clarks Summit and I-81 construction was well underway from that point northward. This photo makes it even easier to connect the dots and see how the I-81 alignment fit into the PTC's original plan. On the graded stub of the Turnpike mainline, you can also see where fill was being piled up on both sides of what would have been the interchange's underpass.

Continuing down the "what if"  path a little further, I wonder what Clarks Summit would have looked like had the PTC completed the Northeast Extension before the 90/10 funding scheme had been passed. Assuming that I-81 had still been built on its current alignment through the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre area and southward, I think it's reasonable to expect that another Breezewood-type situation would have been created in Clarks Summit, with the Pennsylvania Department of Highways using 90% federal funds to build I-81 up to a terminus of sorts at US 6-11, where traffic would be forced to make a turn onto the surface road, then take the Turnpike ramp and get a ticket to follow the Northeast Extension northward from there–which would have carried the I-81 designation from Clarks Summit to the NY state line.

But I've always been a bit perplexed as to the PTC's thinking when aligning the Northeast Extension through the W-B/S area. Considering how the PTC and PDH seemed to work somewhat cooperatively to provide direct access from the Turnpike to the central freeway arteries serving the other metro areas adjacent to the Turnpike (Schuylkill Expressway, Penn-Lincoln Parkway, Lehigh Valley Thruway, Baltimore-Harrisburg Expressway), I'm somewhat surprised the two agencies apparently didn't plan better access for the Wyoming Valley.

Roadsguy

Quote from: briantroutman on January 14, 2019, 02:27:31 PM
The one adjustment I'd make to Roadsguy's sketch is that I'd expect a PTC trumpet from that era to be more geometrically perfect–i.e. with the underpass crossing the mainline at a 90° angle.

The 1960 aerial photo on PennPilot shows an interesting snapshot of the Clarks Summit Interchange area in the brief period when the Northeast Extension was complete up to Clarks Summit and I-81 construction was well underway from that point northward. This photo makes it even easier to connect the dots and see how the I-81 alignment fit into the PTC's original plan. On the graded stub of the Turnpike mainline, you can also see where fill was being piled up on both sides of what would have been the interchange's underpass.

I think I had it in my head for some reason that terrain would be too restrictive for that, but looking now, a 90° trumpet would definitely fit there.

I had no idea there were ever stubs for the other ramps at the sharp curve. That makes it even more obvious that a normal 90° trumpet would have been built and very clearly shows how the southwest approach is just the would-be NB on-ramp widened to the left. There doesn't seem to be any trace of the stubs. According to Historic Aerials, they were still visible in 1969, but seem to have been removed or buried by 1992.
Mileage-based exit numbering implies the existence of mileage-cringe exit numbering.

SGwithADD

Quote from: briantroutman on January 14, 2019, 02:27:31 PM
Quote from: seicer on January 11, 2019, 10:18:24 AM
How would the Clarks Summit interchange have been configured if the PA Turnpike Extension followed I-81 as originally intended? There are remnants of the mainline that's visible but nothing for the ramps.

I think Roadsguy is essentially correct: If the Northeast Extension had been built as originally planned (prior to the 1956 Act), it would have continued northward to Binghamton along what later became the I-81 alignment, and the Clarks Summit Interchange would have been a trumpet just like countless other interchanges throughout the PTC's system.

The one adjustment I'd make to Roadsguy's sketch is that I'd expect a PTC trumpet from that era to be more geometrically perfect–i.e. with the underpass crossing the mainline at a 90° angle.

The 1960 aerial photo on PennPilot shows an interesting snapshot of the Clarks Summit Interchange area in the brief period when the Northeast Extension was complete up to Clarks Summit and I-81 construction was well underway from that point northward. This photo makes it even easier to connect the dots and see how the I-81 alignment fit into the PTC's original plan. On the graded stub of the Turnpike mainline, you can also see where fill was being piled up on both sides of what would have been the interchange's underpass.

Continuing down the "what if"  path a little further, I wonder what Clarks Summit would have looked like had the PTC completed the Northeast Extension before the 90/10 funding scheme had been passed. Assuming that I-81 had still been built on its current alignment through the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre area and southward, I think it's reasonable to expect that another Breezewood-type situation would have been created in Clarks Summit, with the Pennsylvania Department of Highways using 90% federal funds to build I-81 up to a terminus of sorts at US 6-11, where traffic would be forced to make a turn onto the surface road, then take the Turnpike ramp and get a ticket to follow the Northeast Extension northward from there–which would have carried the I-81 designation from Clarks Summit to the NY state line.

But I've always been a bit perplexed as to the PTC's thinking when aligning the Northeast Extension through the W-B/S area. Considering how the PTC and PDH seemed to work somewhat cooperatively to provide direct access from the Turnpike to the central freeway arteries serving the other metro areas adjacent to the Turnpike (Schuylkill Expressway, Penn-Lincoln Parkway, Lehigh Valley Thruway, Baltimore-Harrisburg Expressway), I'm somewhat surprised the two agencies apparently didn't plan better access for the Wyoming Valley.

Wow.  That picture is an amazing find.  I've always thought about what if the PTC had built the extension up to Binghamton.  Never seen the stub ramps before.

RevZimmerman

Some discussion about potentially widening I-81 from the PA/MD state line to the I-81/I-78 split is included in the linked article: https://www.pennlive.com/news/2019/01/more-warehouses-traffic-prompt-plan-to-widen-i-81-to-6-lanes.html

Details about costs are included in the article. Reference is made to a study completed by PennDOT, but I haven't seenlinks to the study itself at this point.

Roadsguy

#985
PennDOT has banned trucks on almost all Interstates and some other freeways in preparation for the upcoming winter storm:

https://www.penndot.gov/Pages/AlertDetails.aspx

The affected non-Interstates on the map are US 22 from I-78 to the NJ state line and the entire length of PA 33. Notably, I-95 and I-295 seem to be excluded.
Mileage-based exit numbering implies the existence of mileage-cringe exit numbering.

goobnav

Is I-81 still a rutted mess from north of Lebanon to Hazelton?  Will be traveling that stretch later this year and haven't been on it in over 10 years.
Life is a highway and I drive it all night long!

Roadsguy

Quote from: goobnav on January 25, 2019, 09:14:39 AM
Is I-81 still a rutted mess from north of Lebanon to Hazelton?  Will be traveling that stretch later this year and haven't been on it in over 10 years.

They recently wrapped up a full-depth reconstruction between the Lebanon/Schuylkill county line and the PA 125/Ravine interchange. That was the worst stretch.
Mileage-based exit numbering implies the existence of mileage-cringe exit numbering.

goobnav

Quote from: Roadsguy on January 25, 2019, 10:26:06 AM
Quote from: goobnav on January 25, 2019, 09:14:39 AM
Is I-81 still a rutted mess from north of Lebanon to Hazelton?  Will be traveling that stretch later this year and haven't been on it in over 10 years.

They recently wrapped up a full-depth reconstruction between the Lebanon/Schuylkill county line and the PA 125/Ravine interchange. That was the worst stretch.

Thank you for the update.  The last time it was so bad, could not believe it was still open to traffic.  Who my kidding, there could be a 50 ft crater and they'd have it open.  At least that was how it was in the Wyoming Valley. :)
Life is a highway and I drive it all night long!

ipeters61

Quote from: goobnav on January 25, 2019, 11:02:29 AM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 25, 2019, 10:26:06 AM
Quote from: goobnav on January 25, 2019, 09:14:39 AM
Is I-81 still a rutted mess from north of Lebanon to Hazelton?  Will be traveling that stretch later this year and haven't been on it in over 10 years.

They recently wrapped up a full-depth reconstruction between the Lebanon/Schuylkill county line and the PA 125/Ravine interchange. That was the worst stretch.

Thank you for the update.  The last time it was so bad, could not believe it was still open to traffic.  Who my kidding, there could be a 50 ft crater and they'd have it open.  At least that was how it was in the Wyoming Valley. :)
Whenever I visit my grandparents in the Wyoming Valley, I'm always baffled by how bad the roads are up there.
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed on my posts on the AARoads Forum are my own and do not represent official positions of my employer.
Instagram | Clinched Map

goobnav

Quote from: ipeters61 on January 25, 2019, 11:29:35 AM
Quote from: goobnav on January 25, 2019, 11:02:29 AM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 25, 2019, 10:26:06 AM
Quote from: goobnav on January 25, 2019, 09:14:39 AM
Is I-81 still a rutted mess from north of Lebanon to Hazelton?  Will be traveling that stretch later this year and haven't been on it in over 10 years.

They recently wrapped up a full-depth reconstruction between the Lebanon/Schuylkill county line and the PA 125/Ravine interchange. That was the worst stretch.

Thank you for the update.  The last time it was so bad, could not believe it was still open to traffic.  Who my kidding, there could be a 50 ft crater and they'd have it open.  At least that was how it was in the Wyoming Valley. :)
Whenever I visit my grandparents in the Wyoming Valley, I'm always baffled by how bad the roads are up there.

I'm not, bad contracts with pavers, no real oversight for how much they put down or how well the road is built due to kickbacks.
Life is a highway and I drive it all night long!

ipeters61

Quote from: goobnav on January 25, 2019, 11:34:27 AM
Quote from: ipeters61 on January 25, 2019, 11:29:35 AM
Quote from: goobnav on January 25, 2019, 11:02:29 AM
Thank you for the update.  The last time it was so bad, could not believe it was still open to traffic.  Who my kidding, there could be a 50 ft crater and they'd have it open.  At least that was how it was in the Wyoming Valley. :)
Whenever I visit my grandparents in the Wyoming Valley, I'm always baffled by how bad the roads are up there.

I'm not, bad contracts with pavers, no real oversight for how much they put down or how well the road is built due to kickbacks.
Yeah.  I guess I meant that the difference in pavement quality is striking.
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed on my posts on the AARoads Forum are my own and do not represent official positions of my employer.
Instagram | Clinched Map

Gnutella

Quote from: ipeters61 on January 25, 2019, 01:05:52 PM
Quote from: goobnav on January 25, 2019, 11:34:27 AM
Quote from: ipeters61 on January 25, 2019, 11:29:35 AM
Quote from: goobnav on January 25, 2019, 11:02:29 AM
Thank you for the update.  The last time it was so bad, could not believe it was still open to traffic.  Who my kidding, there could be a 50 ft crater and they'd have it open.  At least that was how it was in the Wyoming Valley. :)
Whenever I visit my grandparents in the Wyoming Valley, I'm always baffled by how bad the roads are up there.

I'm not, bad contracts with pavers, no real oversight for how much they put down or how well the road is built due to kickbacks.
Yeah.  I guess I meant that the difference in pavement quality is striking.

I think some PennDOT districts are just better than others. I've commented on the pattern accuracy of signs by district, but maybe the same can be said for construction quality? Districts 1, 4, 5 and 9 seem to be the worst for sign pattern accuracy, and Districts 2, 6, 8 and 11 seem to be the best. If Districts 4 and 5 have poor construction quality too, then those districts are just jokes all around. Construction quality seems to be good in Districts 2 and 11, at least in the last 30 years.

goobnav

Quote from: Gnutella on January 28, 2019, 11:17:50 PM
Quote from: ipeters61 on January 25, 2019, 01:05:52 PM
Quote from: goobnav on January 25, 2019, 11:34:27 AM
Quote from: ipeters61 on January 25, 2019, 11:29:35 AM
Quote from: goobnav on January 25, 2019, 11:02:29 AM
Thank you for the update.  The last time it was so bad, could not believe it was still open to traffic.  Who my kidding, there could be a 50 ft crater and they'd have it open.  At least that was how it was in the Wyoming Valley. :)
Whenever I visit my grandparents in the Wyoming Valley, I'm always baffled by how bad the roads are up there.

I'm not, bad contracts with pavers, no real oversight for how much they put down or how well the road is built due to kickbacks.
Yeah.  I guess I meant that the difference in pavement quality is striking.

I think some PennDOT districts are just better than others. I've commented on the pattern accuracy of signs by district, but maybe the same can be said for construction quality? Districts 1, 4, 5 and 9 seem to be the worst for sign pattern accuracy, and Districts 2, 6, 8 and 11 seem to be the best. If Districts 4 and 5 have poor construction quality too, then those districts are just jokes all around. Construction quality seems to be good in Districts 2 and 11, at least in the last 30 years.

Grew up in districts 4 & 5 in NE PA, the contractors their were shall we say "in the know" with the local politicians and there was never a fair bidding process period.  After moving to NC, the difference is night and day!!!
Life is a highway and I drive it all night long!

MASTERNC


billpa

Noticed today penndot changed control cities on Interstate 83 at the 283 split east of Harrisburg. Hazelton and Lancaster remain on their respective signs but State College has replaced Lewistown and Airport has been replaced by Harrisburg Intl Airport. Both new control cities are in Clearview.

Pixel 2


qguy

Quote from: billpa on February 09, 2019, 05:38:05 PM
Noticed today penndot changed control cities on Interstate 83 at the 283 split east of Harrisburg. Hazelton and Lancaster remain on their respective signs but State College has replaced Lewistown and Airport has been replaced by Harrisburg Intl Airport. Both new control cities are in Clearview.
Pixel 2

I just saw that today as I was driving through the interchange for the first time in a few months. Those Clearview patches on the Highway Gothic signs are revolting.

roadman65

The question is are the signs on I-81 changed to reflect this particularly at the systems interchange where US 322 and I-81 part at US 22?
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

74/171FAN

#998
Quote from: roadman65 on February 09, 2019, 10:29:11 PM
The question is are the signs on I-81 changed to reflect this particularly at the systems interchange where US 322 and I-81 part at US 22?


https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3015545,-76.8719938,3a,75y,299.53h,85.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEcpFwdKr0bbKUSKg1t9uSg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Note that the Harrisburg Int'l Airport has never been referenced here on the signs.  State College and Lewistown are both referenced in the above GSV link.
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

Roadsguy

Quote from: 74/171FAN on February 11, 2019, 06:12:44 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on February 09, 2019, 10:29:11 PM
The question is are the signs on I-81 changed to reflect this particularly at the systems interchange where US 322 and I-81 part at US 22?


https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3015545,-76.8719938,3a,75y,299.53h,85.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEcpFwdKr0bbKUSKg1t9uSg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Note that the Harrisburg Int'l Airport has never been referenced here on the signs.  State College and Lewistown are both referenced in the above GSV link.

Though earlier signs for the 22/322 interchange only include Lewistown, as does I-83 NB approaching I-81.
Mileage-based exit numbering implies the existence of mileage-cringe exit numbering.



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